Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / The Blueprint for Mastering Every Conversation with Vanessa Van Edwards

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The Blueprint for Mastering Every Conversation with Vanessa Van Edwards · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Closer to truths. Closer to each other. Even closer to ourselves.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: I'm journalist Danielle Robay, and each week my guests and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I come together to challenge the status.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Quo and our own ways of thinking by daring to ask,
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: what if?
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Why not?
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: And who says? So come curious. Dig deep. and join
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: the conversation. It's time to question everything.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: You know what I just realized? 2027 is coming. I
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: can't even believe it. I am starting to think about
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: our annual New Year's episode and I'm updating like the
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: worksheet and all of it and starting to think about
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: my 2027 goals and plans and all those things. So
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to bring that up because the New
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Year's episode is like always one of our highest rated episodes.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: I know you love it. So just know that it's coming.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I want to jump in today because I'm obsessed with
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: this topic. If you listen to the pod, you know
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: this already. I'm obsessed with conversation and connection and thinking
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: about it as a practice and using tools.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: My mom would always say.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: To my brother about dating, you can get any girl
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: you want, like any guy you any girl can get
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  Speaker 1: any person they want. They just have to like get
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: in their head, you know? And I loved that idea
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  Speaker 1: because I actually think that way about practice. Like I
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: used to be horrible at conflict and then I started
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: to practice it and it was messy and hard and frustrating,
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  Speaker 1: but now I actually feel like so confident and well-versed
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: in it. And that's the same with conversation. We sort
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: of like expect that we're supposed to know how to
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: do it and it's So much of it is a practice.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Same with connections. So I'm so excited for our guests today.
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  Speaker 1: Years ago, Vanessa Van Edwards had a TV show and
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: it was almost ready to go. The concept was built,
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  Speaker 1: the pitch was polished, and the deal was nearly done.
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  Speaker 1: There was one last step, a meeting with the studio executives.
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  Speaker 1: They didn't want to hear the pitch. They just wanted
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: to get to know her and she froze. There wasn't
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  Speaker 1: a lot of small talk. There was not an easy
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: back and forth. And she could feel the room slipping
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: away before she ever opened the deck. And a few
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: days later, her agent called and said, sorry, Vanessa, the
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: executives didn't think that you have the presence to carry
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: a show. Imagine how heartbreaking that would be. So she
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: set out to figure out what she was missing. And
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: she spent years studying master conversationalists, the people who can
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: walk into any room and make it feel easy. And
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  Speaker 1: what she found wasn't what she expected.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: I was really shocked to learn they're not trying to
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  Speaker 3: be impressive. Actually, the best conversationalists were incredibly easy to
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  Speaker 3: talk to. They never put conversational burden on the other person.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: So today, Vanessa is one of the most watched communication
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: experts in the world. She's the bestselling author of Captivating Cues.
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  Speaker 1: She has a new book on conversation, literally called Conversation,
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  Speaker 1: How to Be Instantly Likeable in Any Interaction. And she
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  Speaker 1: teaches at Harvard and on Masterclass. Today, Vanessa gives us
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  Speaker 1: tools that you're going to use the second this episode ends.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: The question to stop asking at every party, the easiest
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  Speaker 1: way to start a conversation with a stranger, how to
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  Speaker 1: tell when someone wants to go deeper, and an exit
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: line so good that it made me curse. We get
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: into what reality shows like Housewives and Love Island are
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: teaching us about communication, and the honest truth about what
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  Speaker 1: 5 million followers didn't fix for her.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I loved hearing that.
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  Speaker 3: And.
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  Speaker 1: I also loved hearing about how she manifested a class
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: at Harvard, which was a school she was told not
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  Speaker 1: even to bother applying to.
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: I know what it's like to be in a conversation
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  Speaker 3: and to feel like you are saying everything wrong and
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  Speaker 3: you're overthinking and you're anxious. But I also know what
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: it's like to be in conversation and feel the most
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: alive you've ever felt. And I really think that all
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: of my work is chasing the latter.
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  Speaker 1: Vanessa calls herself a recovering awkward person.
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  Speaker 3: Not recovered.
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  Speaker 1: Recovering. She says giving yourself permission to be a little
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  Speaker 1: awkward is exactly what makes real connection possible. So as
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: you can imagine, I was like a kid in a
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  Speaker 1: candy store for this entire conversation.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I'm obsessed.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, let's just get into it. It's time to question
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  Speaker 1: everything with Vanessa Van Edwards. Vanessa, I'm so happy to
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: meet you. I'm such a fan. I love hearing you
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  Speaker 1: talk about connection and communication. For anybody that is unfamiliar
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  Speaker 1: with you, can you quickly explain what you do? Yes.
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  Speaker 3: It's such a pleasure. I am a recovering awkward person,
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  Speaker 3: and I help awkward, smart people learn how to communicate
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  Speaker 3: with confidence. I love to help people find their voice
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  Speaker 3: and share their ideas. especially if they're introverted or ambiverted,
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  Speaker 3: but I also love my extroverts too.
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  Speaker 1: That was a really beautiful answer to a question that
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure you hated answering.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't mind. I didn't mind. I was, you know, I,
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  Speaker 3: every woman should be ready for, tell me about you.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: What do you do? And then the question that you
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: get asked all the time, whatever that is, like everyone, everyone,
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  Speaker 3: you know, like there's like certain questions you're asked all
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  Speaker 3: the fricking time.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: We got to prep for those answers. So I was
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  Speaker 3: ready for you, girl. I was ready.
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  Speaker 1: Well, but if anybody reads the first chapter of your book,
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  Speaker 1: they'll be like, oops, she should not have asked that.
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  Speaker 1: And I feel like even though you made that interesting,
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  Speaker 1: the listeners probably were like, hmm, why did I do that?
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  Speaker 1: It was intentional. You are a master of communication and
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  Speaker 1: specifically conversation. And I want you to diagnose that opening
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  Speaker 1: line for me. What was wrong with the way that
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  Speaker 1: I approached you?
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: It made it really hard. It gave me the conversational weight.
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  Speaker 3: I think You know, I've spent 20 years studying master conversationalists.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: And what I was really shocked to learn is they're
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: not trying to be impressive. Like that was my guess.
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: It's like, oh, they're impressive and they're funny and they're
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: witty and they're charming and all those things. No, actually
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  Speaker 3: the best conversationalists were incredibly easy to talk to. They
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  Speaker 3: never put conversational burden on the other person. And so
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  Speaker 3: the reason why that question is hard, and I didn't
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  Speaker 3: mind it, right? Like I'm here for the hard stuff.
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  Speaker 3: is it put the burden on me to give you
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  Speaker 3: an interesting, understandable, relatable answer in under 45 seconds. That's
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  Speaker 3: a lot of weight. And unfortunately, I think we're a
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  Speaker 3: little conversationally weak. We're a little flabby. And so those
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  Speaker 3: questions can be hard.
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  Speaker 1: I do think that socially... We use that question a lot.
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  Speaker 1: What do you do or what does that mean? And
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: can you share why it's such an ineffective opening? Like
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  Speaker 1: how do you recover from that even if it sort
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: of pops.
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  Speaker 3: Out of your mouth? Yes. So if there's one takeaway
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: from this podcast, and hopefully there will be many, but
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  Speaker 3: if there's one, it's stop asking what do you do
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  Speaker 3: and be ready when someone asks it of you. And
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  Speaker 3: the reason for this is because asking what do you
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  Speaker 3: do is like triggering a social script. You're telling the
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  Speaker 3: other person's brain, You've asked and answered this question a
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  Speaker 3: million times, but just stay on autopilot. And so it
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  Speaker 3: sort of sets you up for conversational traps. A lot
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  Speaker 3: of conversation is like a rat, right? And the first
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: time you do a push-up, it's really hard and it sucks.
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  Speaker 3: But then after you do a couple times, you're like, five, ten,
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  Speaker 3: I got this. A lot of the things I tell
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  Speaker 3: in the book, they're easy for the other person, but
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  Speaker 3: they could be a little hard in the moment. Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 3: Like we're a little bit going to the conversational gym
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  Speaker 3: and I think we need to go, we need to
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  Speaker 3: do the social reps. My nightmare is like these casual parties.
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  Speaker 3: I don't do great at a party. Now I can
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  Speaker 3: do it. But in the early part of my awkward years,
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  Speaker 3: it was really hard.
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  Speaker 1: Because you didn't like small talk?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Because I found, I found small talk insufferable and
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  Speaker 3: exhausting and I didn't know how to do it. And
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  Speaker 3: I just doubted everything I said. And I would leave
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  Speaker 3: thinking everyone hated me. And why did I say that?
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  Speaker 3: Like that was basically every conversation. So I went to
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  Speaker 3: this party and I get there and we get inside
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  Speaker 3: and the host, who I only kind of knew, was like,
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  Speaker 3: we have a rule for this party. I was like, what? Now,
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  Speaker 3: I usually love a rule. I'm an A-type personality. She goes,
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  Speaker 3: you cannot talk about what you do. Not at all,
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  Speaker 3: not tangentially. That's the only rule of the party. Have fun. Now,
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  Speaker 3: as a high-achieving A-type neurotic, Recovering perfectionist, recovering awkward person.
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  Speaker 3: That's all I talk about, right? So I was like,
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  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, that's my identity, right? Like I love talking
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  Speaker 3: about what I do, right? I love what I do
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  Speaker 3: most days. So I was locked in. My shoes were off.
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  Speaker 3: I couldn't go back to the car. And I turned
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  Speaker 3: to the person next to me and I was like,
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  Speaker 3: so what do you talk about when you don't talk
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  Speaker 3: about what do you do?
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  Speaker 1: Right?
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  Speaker 3: And we proceeded to have like the most interesting conversation.
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  Speaker 3: And it was so easy. We talked about like, I'm
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: a prepper. She talked about that. We talked about her
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: side hustle for like soap made out of food. You know,
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  Speaker 3: we talked about all these things. And then it happened
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: again with like at the buffet. And then it happened
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: again by the fireplace. And I realized what was happening
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  Speaker 3: is one, the social script had been broken. Someone not
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: only gave me permission, but told me I can't talk
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  Speaker 3: about the social scripts, which is this. This is what
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: it always is. Especially like, right now. It's been busy.
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  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
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  Speaker 3: So busy. So good, but so busy.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Busy. And it's hard to get off. It's a, it's
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: a computational dead end. It's really hard to get out
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  Speaker 3: of that.
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  Speaker 1: It's so difficult. I, uh, I actually loved reading about
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  Speaker 1: social scripts in the book. It was one of my
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  Speaker 1: favorite parts because I feel like it's actually a little
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: bit like the patriarchy. Like no one remembers agreeing to
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: these rules, but somehow we're all expected to follow them.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: And it's like who decided talking about the weather was
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: a good idea or work. But what I do find difficult,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: and I am in conversation for a living and I
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: still find this difficult, is what's the in? And because
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: once you know what somebody is interested in, it's easier
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: to ask follow-up questions. But that cold open, how do
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: you find, how do you get in originally?
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: I got you. I got you. So I agree. So
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: here's the in. And this works as a cold open.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: It also works in that first few minutes where you're
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: not really sure what to say or do. You don't
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: want to say, what do you do? Because you listen
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: to this podcast. You don't want to say, how are you?
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: Because you know it's going to be good, fine, busy.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: So you're going to use a context cue. So this
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: is something that master conversationalists do really well. I got
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: it from them by observing what they do. And it's
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: actually based on some very interesting science. So a context
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: cue is talking about or mentioning anything that you can
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: both see, smell, hear. It is pointing out something that
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: is in your shared reality. And psychologically, the reason why
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: this works is one, it's you're always somewhere. Even if
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: you're on Zoom, I can be like, oh my gosh,
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: you color coded your books. I love a good color coding.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: I love it. Are you also into office supplies? That
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: would have been my cold open, right? I'm like very
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: turned on by office supplies, like a post-it note, a highlighter,
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: and all my books are color-coded. So I'm with you.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: So that's what I would have said to you if
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: I was in a cold open and we were just
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: trying to get to know each other. But you're always somewhere.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: So how do you know the host? That wine looks
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: so great. Have you been here before? What did you
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: think of the last speaker? Oh, man. Today, that was
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: crazy what happened outside. Could you believe? Like you're always somewhere.
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: And that psychologically actually lowers pressure. When you talk about
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: a shared reality, it reminds you that you're in the
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: same space and you can both focus on this thing
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: together and it actually syncs up brainwaves. So your context
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: cue is always you're in.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: So my open to you would have been, Vanessa, I've
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: never interviewed somebody who was standing up during the interview.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Why are you standing? What is going through your mind?
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  Speaker 3: Okay, that would have been such a good one too.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: So I overthink this. Yep. I overthink it. I think
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: that vocal power on a, on a show is really
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: important and I know my triggers. So let's just take
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: a step back for a second, which is when are
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: you your worst self in conversation? Have you noticed that
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: there are triggers, people, things that like make you, you know,
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: get awkward and awkwardness can be quiet, but awkwardness, like
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: my awkwardness is actually not that my awkwardness is like blabbering.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Or like name dropping.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: It's horrible. I grew up in LA. That's why. So like,
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: where do you show up? And I noticed that when
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: I sit, I will, I kind of like will hunch
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: over and then I get a little bit more vocal fry.
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: And so if you were to hear me on this
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: podcast with like a lot more vocal fry, it would
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: be much harder for you to listen to me. But
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: when I'm standing, I actually have to plant my feet.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: So I sound better. I sound louder and I'm more clear.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: I also, um, I think it helps my body language too.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: Like a little bit.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: First of all, great answer. Not what I was expecting.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: But also I want to jump back to social scripts
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: because I love a shared reality. That's such a great in.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: What if you were the person on the other end
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: of the conversation and somebody does say, what do you do? Or,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: you know, like our producer is from Iowa and everybody
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: always asks her like, Oh, what was it like growing
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: up in Iowa? And she, I know she wants to
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: bang them over the head with a hammer, like exactly
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: what you think it would be growing up in Iowa,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: you know? I actually, I grew up in Chicago and
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I get excited to talk about Chicago, but I understand
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: that it's different. So when you've answered the same question
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: a hundred times, how do you resist going on autopilot?
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: Okay, great. So this is perfect. We're going back to
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: the plan. And I think that the backdoor into confidence
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: is planning, right? Like I think that like, if we
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: can plan for the different ways it comes up, it
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: actually allows us to be more fluid in conversation. If
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: you have a plan, you're allowed to be more flexible.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: It's like a weird thing. So I said, prepare for
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: what do you do? Prepare for how are you? And
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: then prepare for like your producer. Oh, tell me what
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: it's like to grow up in Iowa. Great. This is
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: a great example. Okay. So you have a couple of
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: different things you can do here. One is you can
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: be playful. So she could come up with facts about
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: Iowa and make people guess. It sounds like this. Oh, wow. Iowa.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: Can you guess what I brought to my prom?
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's so cute.
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: I'm making it up. Maybe it was like, this is
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: my only knowledge of all Iowa, like cow poker. I
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: don't know. I have no idea. But like, something like
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: very Iowa and Iowa, like something I went to, like,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: what's a guessing game of like, can you guess like
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: what my very first sport was? It was cow tipping.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: I'm making it up, but like a little playful. Right.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: So like you're, you're taking the ball and you're saying,
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: let's level up.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: Get out of this social script. And also remember that, that,
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: that person has good intention. What they're actually trying to
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: do is they're trying to like, tell me about Iowa. Yeah.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: Because where are you from is such a dead end
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: that someone's like, tell me something else. I don't, I've
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: never been to Iowa. Right? Like, so, so, so their,
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: their good intention is there. Reward them. Reward the good intention.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: So playful is like one of my favorite things to do.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: So like playing guessing games. I do this all the time.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Even like if someone's like, you know, you, you always
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: want to ask, but you married, you got kids. If
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: someone's like, oh yeah, I have two kids. I'll be like, wait,
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: let me guess. Girl and girl, boy and girl, boy, boy, twins.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: No, not twins.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: You're too, you don't look, you look rested. Wait, let
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: me get, like, I'll just play and guess their answer.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: And they laugh. I always try to guess people's names
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: of their babies. And I always guess Vanessa and that
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: always gets a laugh, you know? So, so I think
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: being playful is like my favorite option for level one.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: My second option is I prefer level two conversation. So
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: every conversation has three basic levels. Dr. Dan McAdams is
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: the researcher who kind of discovered this blueprint to conversation.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Level one is general traits. Level two is personal concerns, motivations,
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: core values, personality. You could, if you wanted to, dip
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: into a core value. So you could say, you know,
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: I really liked Iowa, but I didn't love Iowa. My
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: spirit is just not an Iowan spirit. I have really
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: value like art and culture. And so I just really
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: wanted to be right in the heart of wherever, New
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: York City, LA, whatever. Or like my family is there
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: and I love visiting, but like I'm a city gal, right?
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: You're like, you're hinting at a core value that is
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: also breaking a script. Like everyone expects you to say, Yeah,
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: you know, it was Iowa. It was good. You know,
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: I go back and visit family. But tying into a
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: core value, you're actually going to level up the conversation
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: and invite them. And you can even then ask, right? Like,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: how about you? Do you really identify with where you're from?
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Now that's different from where are you from? Right.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Do you really identify?
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: There's also a question I love. Describe where you're from
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: only using food. And then I have to guess. Okay.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: That's good. Okay.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: But I think now I, now that, right. Yeah. Okay.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: But so, so, so that can work, right? Like that
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: can work, but you would have to really take the ball. Now,
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: a lot of my tips require some, a dollop of
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: conversational courage, but that one takes a lot of conversational courage, right?
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: Like why? Because let's say that I was like, Oh,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: so where are you from? You would have to say, wait,
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you three types of food and
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: then you're going to guess. Okay.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I just turned it into too much of a game
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: instead of making it playful.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: It's playful, but you know, that's, that's, it's, it's, it's
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: too much. It's more, it's more courage. No, no, no.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: It's not too much.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: I don't believe in too much. Right. Like, I think,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: I think that like, we're all just as we are,
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: you know, we are as we are, like no one's
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: too much. So no, I would know a lot about
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: you if I asked you, where are you from? And
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: you were like, let me tell you the food and
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: see if you can guess. I'd be like, let's go.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: Now you're my person, right? So like we would be
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: like off to the races. I do want to play
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: that game with you right now. I really want you
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: to do it. And I know you're from Chicago. You know,
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: from LA. Dang it.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: I know, but like it would be fun. Right.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: Were you going to say hot dogs?
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say deep dish pizza and
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: a Wrigley dog.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: And it would have been, well, that's too easy. It
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: would have been Chicago for sure. So we would have bonded.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: What would you say for LA?
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: I would say probably like tacos and diets. No one
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: in LA eats really.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Hilarious.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: You know, everyone's like starving, but like looks beautiful. Yeah.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: Especially where I am from in LA. So here's a
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: choice you have in every conversation. And I did not
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: put this in the book, but I would rather you
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: find your people faster. So if you want to play
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: that food game because it's fun for you, you're going
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: to find the person who's willing to be playful with you.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: Or you're going to find the person who's like, what? Right.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Like in a business setting, that's weird. You can't do that.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know. Like, I mean, like,
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: come on. Like, well, who said, where's the rule? That
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: says we have to be boring and sterile and formal
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: in business.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Well, okay. Let me test another one I use out
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: with you and see what you think. And I love
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: your honesty. So this is like so fun. So, and
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: this is a tip I give people when they're like,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to say when I first meet somebody.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: And I said, well, everybody shares their name. So you
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: can say like, oh, Vanessa, that's such a great name.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Tell me about the origin. Why did your parents name
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: you Vanessa? And then you like that one?
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: I love it. I love it.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Now, what's it getting right?
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: It's getting so many things right. One is it's still safe.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: So the one thing that we cannot do is we
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: don't want to skip level. We don't want it to
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: go too quickly. That can be very challenging for introverts.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: And I really like to honor my introverts with my
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: tips because we don't want to put pressure on them.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: Remember the whole goal is to be easy to talk to, right?
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: That's the whole goal. So if we put too much
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: on our introverts, we put them into a stress response
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: and that's not kind. I like to be conversationally generous.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: So I love it because it's still safe. Everyone has
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: a name and they know the answer to that. They're
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: either going to say, you know what? They picked it
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: out of a book. Okay. Or they're going to say, well,
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: let me tell you. Like, can I tell you mine?
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Okay. Please. So my name is Vanessa and my dad's
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: name is Vance.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: I'm named after my dad, but not in a way
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: you would think. My parents are high school sweethearts. And
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: my mom was with my dad so much, like she
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: followed him around high school, that the teacher started calling
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: her Vancesa. Because she was like with him all the time.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: And then- My mom went by Vancesa for a long time.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: And then of course they got married and had me
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: and I was Vanessa. So it's just like a sweet
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: story about my parents. So the other reason why that
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: question works is it's.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: But I learned so much about, like I feel closer
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: to you hearing that story.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Isn't that weird? I do.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: And when I get to share it, I'm excited. Like
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: I get to talk about something that's interesting. And by
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: the way, if I didn't, wasn't in the mood or
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: didn't want to, I could be like, oh, my dad's dance. Yeah, exactly.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: I could have, I could have withheld. So it's like
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: permission intimacy, which I really believe in. There's a, there's
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: an author out there who advises, who is like, ask
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: someone when the last time they cried was. Right. And
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: I was like, I would be so upset if you
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: asked me that question. Like way too personal, way too much.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: It also would put me in the position of wanting
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: to lie to you, which like you never want to do. Right.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: So your question is also great because if someone wants
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: to share a core value, they could.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: They could share a heritage. They could share about their family.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: They could, if they want to, permission intimacy.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Is there a question that you really love asking that
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: rarely fails you?
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: What's your birth order?
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, I like that.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: And do you think it fits you? I just like
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: love birth order. I don't know what it is about it,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: but I just, and by the way, I've looked into
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: the science of this. There is no science, which I
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: think is bunk. Like I don't like there are patterns
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: of birth order. There just are. And I'm like, how
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: does the research not know this? So there's no research
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: on birth worker, which I think is crazy because there
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: are definitely patterns of like eldest and youngest. There's four
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: kids are really different than three kids. And so I
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: always ask like, what's your birth order? And like, do
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: you think that that fits you? Because it's less important
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: what I think. It's more important, like, do you, like,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: what's your birth order? Wait, can I guess?
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. Yeah, I was going to say guess. Guess.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: See, we're doing it. We're doing it. Let me guess. Okay.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: I want to guess yours too.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. I'm going to say youngest.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: So I'm oldest daughter. I'm one of two.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: Oh, I just told you. I'm an oldest daughter.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: But I was going to guess. You have oldest daughter energy.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Of course. Like, I want to be in control. I'm
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: very organized, of course.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: As soon as you said type A, I was like,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: she's oldest daughter.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: For sure. And also, I get along really well with
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: eldest daughters. I should have guessed oldest, but you know
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: why I didn't? I meet a lot of podcasters, and
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: a lot of them are youngest.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: I wonder why.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: I think it's because they never got heard.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I want to test my theory of connection with you
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: and tell me what you think about this. Because what
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I've found is that if I had to simplify it,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: it's three steps. Step one is asking questions. Step two
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: is follow-up questions, right? Which sort of incorporates listening. And
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: step three is making somebody feel valued.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: And I think people often feel as if vulnerability plays
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: a role in there, but I don't think you need
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: vulnerability necessarily.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: I don't think you need it either. I would add
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: one more. I think that is perfection. The only thing
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: that I think it's missing is emotion.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Ooh, say more.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Because I'm just playing it out. No, right. We just,
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: we're doing this just together right now.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: I could do your three and keep it very fact finding.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: I could keep it very like, where are you from?
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: Where am I from? And how did you do that?
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: How'd you get into what you do?
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: We could stay very fact-finding and there would be no
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: emotional specificity there. And I do think that really good conversation,
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: you are triggering some emotion. It's not necessarily positive. I
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: don't believe in talking about positivity. It's like, it's awe.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: It's curiosity. It's venting. That is good. Like that kind
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: of emotion is really good. So I would add in,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: you must answer or ask with some kind of emotion,
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: it can be positive or negative. And actually the more specific,
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: the better, you know, like a lot of my, like
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: my swaps in my book are just adding like a
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: little bit of specific emotion. So like, not just like, Oh,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: you grew up around here. You know, what's a, what's
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: your favorite restaurant?
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Eh, it's okay.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: But like, what's the, what's the coziest restaurant? Like the coziest,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: like best, like cozy vibe, you know, like then my
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: brain goes to like, Ooh, cozy, coat, My brain went
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: to an emotion as opposed to a fact. So I
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: think like we're trying to hunt. It's not a fact-finding mission.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: Conversation should not be a fact-finding mission. It should be
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: a story-hunting endeavor.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: A story-hunting endeavor.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I often say that if you want to avoid
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: boring questions, you switch the what to the why. Yeah.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Because the why is the story.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Love.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Love.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: Okay. That's a really nice swap. It's a really nice
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: swap also because it's a great follow-up question because often
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: people will answer in a fact. Now, here's like a little...
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: a hard thing is people are used to being socially scripted, right?
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: So they'll often answer, you'll ask a great question, a
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: script breaking question, and they answer with a script.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: And you're like, no, dude, I was trying to get
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: us out of the scripts.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: The why can also break that because it's like one,
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: it's like one step a little bit deeper. And so
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: why'd you get into that? Why'd you move to LA? Why? Right. Like,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: so like, I think that that's a really good one
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: because it can like really break that ice if you
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: need it.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said the word deeper because I
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: really was so curious about your thoughts on what signals
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: you in conversation. Like what gives you the green light
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: that you can go deeper with somebody else? Is it
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: their body language? Is it their response?
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: I think it's both. I really love like mouth open.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Like I think that when someone's laughing, ha, This is
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: like a woo. It's a little woo. And we very
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: briefly talked about this. I was like in the book,
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, should I add this? It's like
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: a little bit woo woo, but it's so true. I
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: think that if someone's mouth is open, they're going, ah,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: no way.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Ha ha ha.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: When their mouth is open, I feel like it's like
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: a portal to the brain. It's like, I am taking
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: an air. I'm taking an idea. And so when someone's
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: like open mouth with me, like they're laughing, they're awing,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: they're wowing. I'm like, I'm in.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I just did it unknowingly with you just now.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're doing it too. And by the way,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: same thing. I do a lot of presenting, right? I
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: don't do any coaching anymore. So I do only like workshops.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: And I'm looking for this moment is like the best
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: sound in the world. When an audience member goes, Without
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: realizing it. Yes. A spontaneous aha moment. Yes. I'm like,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: I got it. So that's my green light as a teacher,
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: but also as a conversationalist. So like, when we laugh together,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: oh my gosh. So first level is you open your
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: mouth to me, right? Like, wow. Next level is we're
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: both ah-ing or laughing at the same time.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: It's like an air kiss.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: What was the moment you realized you were awkward and
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: also what was the first step of your recovery?
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: I did not always feel like an outsider looking in.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: I often felt like I was straddling. I was dipping
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: my toe. There was moments of connection and spark where
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: I was like, I feel heard and I feel chosen
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: and I feel loved. And there was moments where I
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: was like, I got it all wrong. I totally got
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: it all wrong. And so Interestingly, I think that that
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: informs my work a lot because I know what it's
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: like to be in a conversation and to feel like
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: you are saying everything wrong and you're overthinking and you're anxious.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: But I also know what it's like to be in
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: conversation and feel the most alive you've ever felt. And
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: I really think that all of my work is chasing
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: the ladder.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: In that way, I think I've had moments of natural instinct,
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: moments where I'm like, oh, that worked, like at that
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: party where I was like, oh, it's working. Oh my gosh,
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: like I'm just myself. But I've also had moments where
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: I had to work it, where I was like, I
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: do not know what to say or do. Okay, conversation blueprint.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Where are my context cues? What's my conversational confetti? So
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: I am constantly dipping into both. And I think that
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: everyone is on the spectrum, right? I have like many,
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: many students. And some of them are peak extroverts, socially
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: gifted superheroes, where they are natural all the time. And
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: for them, I'm containing their strength. They have so much superpower.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: They're so charismatic that I'm like, if you just channel this,
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: you're going to get everything you want. Because a lot
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: of my extroverts are successful, but they're not as successful
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: as they know they could be. They're actually expending too
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: much of that energy. So I'm like, if you just
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: hone the superpower, you're going to be magic. Then I
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: have my ambiverts, which is like me, which is like,
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: we're somewhere in between. We have some good friends, but like,
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: we're kind of, uh, we need to like really figure
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: out the plan for ourselves. Very ambitious. Usually I call
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: them my goal oriented extroverts, my ambitious ambiverts, usually very
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: career oriented. And like, we really, we often feel like
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: if I work harder, people will just notice if I,
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: if I just work better and smarter, I don't need
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: to worry about people's skills. Unfortunately, that does not usually work.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: Not for very long. And then I have my courageous
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: introverts who they are very introverted and they really want
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: to be courageous, but they don't want to feel fake.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: They're like, I really do want to communicate. I really
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: value communication, but like, I just don't want to be
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: inauthentic while I do it. So I think that we're
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: on a spectrum, like we're on that spectrum. And when
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: I teach live, I often have people stand in a
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: line where they are because I think it's really important
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: to acknowledge where you fall so you can know where
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: you have to flex. Like how much of the gym
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: do you have to go to? You know, like what
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: is it, what is it you're doing?
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Is there a social situation you still could turn back
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: to or even think about to this day that was
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: like the most awkward version of yourself?
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Anytime I'm in a, like a club, like in the club.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Oh my God, Vanessa, me too. I don't know if
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: you were as awkward as you think, because everything you're saying,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, that's me. Maybe I'm not as socially
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: adept as I think.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: Wait a minute. No, not that. What? Thank goodness I'm
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: now old enough to be able to say I'm too
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: old for that. But I was saying that at 20.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Like my friends would be like going to the club.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: I went to school at Emory in Atlanta. And unfortunately
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: or fortunately, there's great dancing and great clubs in Atlanta.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: And I would be like 20 and I'd be like,
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: I'm too old to go to the club. You know,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: I was like, I got a student council meeting in
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: the morning, guys. Like I cannot go. Loud environments don't
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: work very well for me. Also, like when it's all nonverbal.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: it's hard. You know what I mean? Like, I think
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: that a lot of those very loud environments, it's very
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: much like physical and I rely on my verbal communication.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: You know, I over communicate. So I don't think I
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: do well when I'm like, what got you into what
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: you do? It doesn't work. Yeah.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: We need more intimate settings. Yeah. Yeah.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I love an intimate setting or work A networking
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: event where there's freedom of flow. Like, I don't mind
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: it when you can, like, move around the room. I
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: find it really hard when you're at a four-hour dinner
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: and you're sitting next to the same two people and
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: you can't move. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Now, I've noticed something, and I'm going to make a
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: sweeping generalization.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: Let's do it.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: But I've noticed that more people in Gen Z are
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: having trouble communicating. Yeah. Communication is a widespread epidemic for sure.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: And I have so much empathy for it. And I'm
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: wondering if you've read or thought anything about, like, was
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: it COVID that turned this into more of a crisis?
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Is it AI that's making it even worse?
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: I actually think, I have thought about this a lot.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: I think that conversation is one of the few skills
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: you have to learn before by friction. You actually have
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: to be kind of bad at it in some situations.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: And Gen Z have not had as many opportunities to
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: have friction-filled conversation because from a very young age, there
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: was device. So remember, I don't know how old you are, but-
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: I'm 35. Okay. And I'm 41. So I remember when
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: you'd have to show up somewhere and there was nothing
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: to do except you had to be like, so camp,
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: you know, like there was like, you were either looking
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: at your shoes or you were talking and those were reps, right?
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: Like those were all social gen moments at the airport.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: You know, I used to go to the airport and
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: like you were either reading a book or you were
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: standing awkwardly making chit chat. So like we had all
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: these very low pressure friction moments and they had to
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: be low pressure. It had to be someone you would
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: never see again. Right. Or like, Someone you just saw
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: for like a program, like a camp summer program.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: Or like someone you were in like a group interview setting.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: And like now, if you're in a group interview setting, like,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: you know, at the very beginning of my career, you
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: were in the waiting room and you had to talk
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: to the other applicants. Now, everyone's like AirPods in, phone on,
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: either they're practicing or they're in their feed. And so I, unfortunately,
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: we've lost those accidental friction moments, which is actually how
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: we do the reps, right? Like that's how we get
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: good at those openers. I also think that now the
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: bar for conversation is higher than ever. When I go
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: into a group of people, like I go to my
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: daughter's PTA meeting and I really want to meet their moms.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: I just moved to a new place. I don't know
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: anyone here. I am now competing with their feeds. So
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: not only do I have to open the conversation, that's
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: already hard, but now I have to make my conversation
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: so good that that it's better than their feed because
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: I'm competing with them wanting to open up their phone
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: and look at their email, look at their feed again.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: So now when we do have conversation, not only is
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: it harder to get the opener, is it harder to
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: break into through someone's AirPods or through their phone, but
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: it also has to be so engaging and so good
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: and so dopamine producing that they're willing to stay off
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: their feed for you this time and next time and
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: every time. And so I think that Gen Z has
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: just been hit with a very difficult circumstance that is
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: not in their control. And their pressure is so high.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: It's so high.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: That is the best answer I've ever heard, Vanessa. Oh.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: You're right. It's true.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: And I feel that communication or asking questions or anything
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: we're talking about is really about practice. And I've found
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: that with everything, with integrity, with conflict. It's like we
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: want it to just be and it's not.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: Perfect. Yes, we want to be excellent at it. We
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: want to be so good at it. And conversation, you
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: cannot jump into it being excellent. And who wants to,
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: Gen Z or Boomer or Millennial, who wants to go
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: into a conversation knowing it's going to be hard the
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: first few times?
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: It's like doing the splits. You got to stretch a
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: little bit every day.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: Or you'll rip your muscle.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Wow.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: And that's part of the conversation gym, as you say.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: We're going to the gym. We're going to the gym.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: When I read in your book that you watch reality
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: TV shows too, I should say in the name of
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: research is what you say.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: I need you to call my dad and tell him
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: that my hours of Real Housewives has paid off.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Now, I have a Love Island case study in the
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: book because I like to see when a date is
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: going well and I make a prediction that that couple's
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: going to hold, right? So like when it hooked me
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: and actually I haven't been able to, I've been chasing
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: that high ever since. It was this date where you
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: could see them falling in love and now they're married
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: and have three kids.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: So I like it because it's a great case study
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: and like which- But wait, what were you seeing? They
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: were following the rules of great conversation without realizing it.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: So immediately the date starts and they immediately break social scripts.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: And he asks her like right away- I hear you're
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: a reader. So like very interesting because it's like I
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: have five magic likable phrases in the book. These are
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: five phrases that I heard master conversationalists constantly dropping into
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: conversation all over, like all ages, men and women, like
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: they were all using these phrases and it made them very,
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: very likable. One of them is, I was just thinking
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: of you. A version of that is, I heard you.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: I heard about your, right? So like one, it's like
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: an immediate compliment because what do we want more than
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: anything in this world? is to feel like people are
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: thinking of us, is to be thought of well. That's
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: all we really want. And so when someone immediately gives
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: us that gift of, I was thinking well of you
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: behind your back, it's like, ha, I am liked. I belong.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: I am wanted.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: It's like immediate, like body safety. So he says that
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: to her. So like immediate safety. And like, I was
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: thinking of you and then jumping to a really great,
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: not typical opener, still level one. Like, what are you reading?
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: That's not like too deep or anything. So she then answers, yes,
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: I love to have two books at a time. I
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: love fiction, nonfiction. And he's like, what kind? And she
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: jumps into a core value. She jumps into the kind
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: of nonfiction that she likes because of the way that
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: she thinks. So they, within two minutes, go from level
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: one to level two. Now they're talking about core values
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: in what they like to read, what they believe in, right?
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: They're talking about, I think they were talking about the book,
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: The God Delusion. If you both like that book, you
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: are already at level two and wow, you are sinking up, right?
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: Like if you both love that book.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: So they were just.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: Following and they were doing it very quickly. And I
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: was like, this couple's going to get married. I was like,
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: this couple's going to get married. Like they're getting married.
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: So the real reason I like Real Housewives is I
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: feel that they are, you're seeing, now I know some
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: of it is scripted, storylines are planned, but the way
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: they speak to each other is not as scripted, right?
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: Like they're in real conversations. And so I love to
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: see the dynamics play out. And fun fact, I was
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: in two episodes of Real Housewives of Orange County.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: I need to go back and watch for your debut.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: So back in the day, I started my career doing
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: communication coaching for teens and parents. Wow. That was my
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: first entry. And they brought me on the show to
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: help Lynn Curtin and her teen girl.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: I so remember this. That was you. Oh my God,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: you're so right.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: That was me.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: So- Always communication coaching. And it's funny because that was
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: the beginning of my career, very, very beginning of my career.
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: And actually, the opening story of the book is how
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: I lost a TV deal. That was my first and
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: it went great. And I got offered a TV deal
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: from that. And then I failed because I... I could
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: not have conversation and small talk with the executives. No way.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness. So did you turn that into how
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: do you know that's how you failed?
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: The deal was almost done. So I went and we
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: had a whole show. It went so well on Orange
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: County that I was like, we could do this. We
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: could bring teens and parents together. And I was writing
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: a book about it at the time. Right. That book
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: came out, totally failed. Anyway, love the ups and downs.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: I've been doing this for 20 years. And I always
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: like talking about the ups and downs because I think
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: so many women feel like they can't have failures, but
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: actually they're very informative.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: I remember a video that you put out about so
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: many of your first books not doing as well as
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: you hoped. And it really hit something in me. That
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: was a powerful video.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. And so this was one of them. And
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: so we had this show like crafted. It was really great.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Would have been a major career changer. And we had
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: all done. And they were like, we just want you
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: to come in before signing to meet all like the
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: big guy, like the big guys and gal at the studio.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: And I was so prepared for the pitch. I was
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: not prepared for the small talk. And it was so awkward.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: And I was so like, they were like, they asked,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: you know, so do we just want to get to
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: know you? And I was like, what? Can we talk
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: about the pitch? And I remember in the room losing them.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: I remember seeing them just be like, this is who
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: we want to have as a lead of a show.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: Before I even got to the deck, they were totally
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: tuned out. And then my agent told me that they
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: didn't feel that I had the presence to carry the show. Wow.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: What a good learning tool because you definitely have the
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: presence now. You fixed all that.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: I mean, I spent 10 years with that feedback. Yeah. Right?
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: I spent 10 years figuring out... how to harness authentic presence, right?
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: Like it doesn't work to fake it. It just doesn't work.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: And so all of my YouTube channel from 2000 and
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: I was on 2007. My first YouTube video is 2007.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: 2007 to 2015 is me figuring it out.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: How do you feel now that it worked?
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: Tired. To be totally honest, tired. I've been on a
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: content treadmill for a very long time. And there's only
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: so many ways that you can talk about communication. You
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: know this. And so that's why I'm constantly doing new research.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: It's why we have a labs is because I just
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: needed new things to talk about. I needed new research
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: to talk about, but I'm very tired of clips being clipped,
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: having to give very quick hacks and tips. And so
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure what that's going to look like for
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: me over the next, you know, couple of years. That's
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: why I like writing books and I get to go
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: really deep. I like longer discussions. So I'm proud and tired.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: Like I'm so like honored to be where I am
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: now and have the opportunities I have, but I'm also
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: really tired of the game. It's a game.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Did it feel differently than you thought it would?
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I thought that having a million followers would be
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: the greatest. I was like, I have a million followers.
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: Everything will be different. Having a million followers is harder
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: than It does not make things better. I know people
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: will not believe me. I know. But it doesn't fix anything.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: It often creates more problems. It doesn't mean money in
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: the bank. It doesn't mean money in the bank. I
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: was definitely making more money at 100,000 followers than I
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: am at a million followers. And now we have 5
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: million followers. For sure, I was making more money when
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: I was smaller. And I was actually probably doing more
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: work that I liked. So this is a game. Like
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: the influencing... Content game is a game, but I actually
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: want to help people. So it's like very, very challenging
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: to find the balance.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: You've talked about how you think the next generation will
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: be talking to technology more than they talk to humans,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: which I actually feel emotional about it. It's a crisis.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: We need each other and it sounds so trite, but
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: we truly do. Do you worry about that more as
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: a professional or as a parent?
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: I worry about that as a professional more than a
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: parent right now. But I also have a three-year-old and
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: an eight-year-old and I'm in quite tight control of their technology.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: So I feel right now a little bit more in control.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: I also feel that Gen Z is doing a wonderful service.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: I'm really hopeful and grateful for Gen Z because they
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: are coming out and they are saying, we don't like this.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: we should have had tighter control when we were younger.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: Social media is taking away our attention. It's taking away
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: our connection. And I'm so grateful because because they are
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: saying that schools are like, oh, maybe we should be
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: a phone-free campus. Alumni are coming back and they're like,
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: you cannot have this. You cannot have iPads like this.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: So I'm actually very hopeful for our children. I'm hopeful
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: that Gen Z is actually going to help guide us
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: in how to steward Gen Alpha, which is my children.
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: I'm hopeful on that. I'm more worried professionally. And that
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: is because we have many, we have four generations in
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: the workplace, which is insane. This is a very weird
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: moment in history. We have boomers, Gen X, millennials, Gen Z,
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: all in the workplace at the same time with completely
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: different ways of communicating. And we're all doing it differently.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: And the one thing- Who would you rather be stuck
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: in an elevator with?
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: I love an Xer. Oh my gosh. I love Xer women.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: I'm a, I'm a millennial, like solid millennial, but Xer women, like,
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you feel this way, but like
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: Xer women are like, they're so smart and they like
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: are so wise. And whenever I'm with an Xer woman,
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: I'm like, tell me everything. How did you figure out motherhood?
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: How are you figuring out working? How are you, are
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: you happy? Are you, do you feel like you've made it?
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: Like I, well, I love being with an Xer woman, especially.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: I like that. Yes. So I'm more worried professionally because
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: I think that for some reason there's a cultural pact
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: that we've made that we should be really sterile in communication.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: And that with all these technology things we've talked about,
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: that AI is going to strip us of our humanity
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: and our communication. We're going to get real flabby before
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: we go back to the gym, I think. Yeah.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: So you did dedicate this book to your two kids
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: and you said you hope that it helps them find
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: their best friends, have great conversations with interesting people. And
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: one day connect with incredible partners.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: And I think parents usually wish that their children avoid
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: heartbreak and avoid failure and avoid awkwardness. What are you
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: doing differently with your kids because of what you know?
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: I do believe in safe friction. Like, for example, so
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: the way that I'm trying to approach communication with my
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: kids is through play. So I have a lot of
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: verbal games that I play with my kids. So like,
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: for example, one of my kids is a little bit
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: pessimistic She just has a strong negativity bias like me. Yeah.
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: So we play a game called fortunately, unfortunately, which we
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: take turns and we'll all be like, unfortunately she ran
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: out of milk. And then she's like, but fortunately she
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: has a car to go to the store. Unfortunately, the
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: car's almost out of gas. Fortunately. And so we play unfortunately, fortunately.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: And so it teaches like, And we switch, right? We
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: switch roles. She also loves right now the commercial game,
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: which is when we do one word at a time
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: and we do an advertisement for anything. So like, you know, like, okay,
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: like let's do an advertisement. So it would be like,
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: so I'm going to say a word and then you're
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: going to say a word for this.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: Today I will follow you around to the.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Gym.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: And we can build up this, it's a lot of
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: conversational flexibility. And then also I want her to think
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: about how she's being advertised to. So like, how would
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: you sell this? So she loves that game. We play
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: that game a lot. Body language wise, I always ask
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: them to hunt for someone's eye color. So oftentimes she'll
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: like meet someone and I'll be like, oh, like what's
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: her name? What was her eye color? Because I want
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: her to be making eye contact and that's better than
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: just make eye contact. We play, what else are we
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: playing right now? Sometimes we'll play, which is the embarrassing story,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: which is the not embarrassing story. So we'll like share
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: a story and we try to like read what's the
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: real emotion. So I'm very playful communication wise with them.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Vanessa, you know, this is an entire book slash field.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: Girl, girl, I wrote a parenting communication book. It did
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: not go well.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: I think it needs a re-release. So much is about timing.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Speaking of all the books, you've now given us Captivate, Cues,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: and Conversation.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: What is the perfect combination of those three Cs to
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: become a successful yapper?
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: Probably connection, right? Like if you're very charismatic with your cues,
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: you know how to captivate people, but you also can
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: have very connective conversation. Yeah.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Now, I am notoriously... a decent conversationalist and a terrible
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: conversation ender, which I know from the research is most
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: people's biggest fear of getting into a conversation because they
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: don't know how they're going to exit. And so they're
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: already scared before they even get in. I'm not scared
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: to get in. I just definitely don't know how to
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: get out.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: How do you do it without being rude? Okay.
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: I have a formula. You know, I love a plan, right?
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: Like we have a plan. We're not anxious. So it's
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: compliment or a future cue plus an action. So it
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: would be like if we were in real conversation, like
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: this is a podcast, obviously. Right. But I might be like, oh,
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: you know, you mentioned that your kids play soccer. Are
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: you in soccer season now? Yes, we have a soccer
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: tournament this weekend. Oh, my gosh. Well, I hope that
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: your son. wins in soccer. I wish you all the
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: best of luck. It was so lovely talking to you
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: and I'll be sure to email you later or like,
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: I'll be sure to reach out LinkedIn. So it's like future,
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: you're already in the future state of mind, plus the
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: compliment and then whatever the action is you're going to take.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: Vanessa, that is fucking brilliant.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, now what happens if somebody asks for your phone
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: number and.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: You don't want to give it? Oh my gosh, I
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: am so bad on text and phone. Can I give
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: you my email? Brilliant.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: You came up with that so quickly. Okay, rapid fire.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: The reality show that we can all learn.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: To talk better from. Talk better? Mm-hmm.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Not Real Housewives.
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: They talk worse. Right. Like they're an assassin. Probably Traitors.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, the reality show that's ruining conversation.
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: Real Housewives.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: You know it's bad when Michelle Obama shades you and
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: she was shading Housewives.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: You know why? It's like the worst. It's fabricated drama.
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: So the conversations are actually aiming for drama. Yeah, and conflict.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, the question we should officially retire.
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: From small talk. Been busy? Been busy lately?
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: No more. What is the maximum acceptable length for a
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: voice note? 10 minutes. 10 minutes is too long, Vanessa.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: Is that too long? What's your answer?
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: Oh my God, you're capped at three. If it's more
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: than three, you need to call me.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: Three, wow. That's like a micro dose. Okay, I love it.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Which is worse, asking no questions or asking too many?
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: Asking no questions. Oh, that's my, that's my kryptonite. I'm like,
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: don't you care? Aren't you interested in anything? I'm like
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: asking all the questions. Like, let's keep asking questions. That's
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: way better.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Which builds more connection, a two hour dinner or a
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: 10 minute car ride?
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: Two hour dinner.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: And for reference, I'm asking that for everyone listening, because
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: you do talk about side to side conversations and how
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: they're different than face to face.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: And like, they can be really good in movement and
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: something different, but it's really hard to go deep in
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: 10 minutes. And sometimes in a car, you can be
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: like very surface. Oh, that spot. Oh, there's traffic. Oh,
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: it's so hot. You know. Yep. You've got to be
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: in it. You're locked in.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: At some point, you've got to lock in, even if
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: it's like a slow start.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, the conversation that should never happen over text.
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: We need to talk. Don't send that. Don't send that text.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Alarm.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: Like, cruel. And whatever is coming next, it should not
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: happen over text.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Silence becomes awkward when?
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: Silence is okay when you're thinking. I would say silence
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: becomes awkward when someone's distracted. Like when someone's like they're
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: silent because they're on their phone, you're like, come on,
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: what do I do with myself? I just like twiddle
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: my thumbs while I wait. I guess I'll check my
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: phone too.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: I'm going to share very quickly because this was so cool.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: I spoke to somebody on the phone who I was
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: asking for advice from. And he was sort of sharing
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: his experience with me. And we got on the phone
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: and we'd never really met. And he said, I just
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: want to share that I'm a slow processor. So if
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: I'm quiet on the other end, just know that I'm
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: thinking and processing and I will respond.
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: And I was like, whoa, that's so beautiful. Magic. I
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: love a call out, like a self call out, like
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: self labeling. Like the reason why I say I'm a
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: recovering awkward person is because it gives me full permission
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: that if I'm awkward, it's okay. right? Like if I'm awkward,
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: like if you meet me and I'm awkward, it's like,
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: I'm still in recovery. I don't say a recovered awkward person.
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: I say recovering. So like, I love a self-call up
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: because it gives people permission to be themselves. Like it
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: gives me permission to be awkward if I feel awkward.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: That's actually such a brilliant tip. Thank you for that.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: The fastest way to kill a conversation.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: Bragging about how busy you are.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: Can we just stop that? Can we just stop? Can
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: we just stop doing that? Everyone is busy No one
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: wants to hear it. And the research shows that it
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: makes you look less competent.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Would you rather talk to an oversharer or somebody who
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: gives you nothing?
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: Oversharer. I love an oversharer.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: What is a book that changed your life? Something you
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: think everybody should read?
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: A book that changed my life that I think everyone
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: should read is a little bit different than a book
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: that changed my life.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Give me both answers.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: The book that changed my life that was fundamental was
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: the first self-help book I ever read, which I saw
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: my mom's night table. And it was Why Men Don't
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: Listen and Why Women Can't Read Maps. And I was like,
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: I've never heard of this. It's an old school. It
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: was like an old school book. And I, it was
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: the first time I was like, I didn't know self-help existed.
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: Like I didn't even know that category was thing. And
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: I read it and I was like, oh my gosh,
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: I understand my dad. I understand my brother. It was
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: like the first time where I was like, a book
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: could help you understand someone in your life. It could
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: help you understand yourself. From that moment, I was like,
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: I am writing self-help books. Like I was like, I
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: was 12 years old and I was like, I will
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: write a book like this one day.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: What is something every woman should try once?
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: Going to the conversational gym. Do my nine power questions. So,
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: you know, I have nine power questions in the book,
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: three for each level. And they take courage. They take courage.
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: But finding someone in your life who you either will
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: do nine dates or three dates or one really long date,
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: nine family dinners. I think if you do that with
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: someone you care about, you're going to learn about yourself.
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: Like a secret goal in conversation is like, I've learned
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: about myself through talking to you. And so, yes, I
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: want you to discover about them, but also like the
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: act of answering also helps you discover about yourself.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: That's how I know I'm in conversation with someone special.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Because you're like, oh, that's why.
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. You're ah-ha-ing about yourself. You're like, ah.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Someone asked me a great question that I didn't think of,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: you know? Okay, you have to tell me when to stop.
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: Stop. Stop.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Okay. What is one thing you're not doing that you
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: know would make your life better?
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: Taking Fridays off.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: I love that. Tim Ferriss would agree.
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: Oh my God. I've been trying to take Fridays off
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: for years and it would be so good for my
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: mental health and my kids and my body and my everything.
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: And I just like, I, every, I block it off
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: my calendar. I'm like, I'm like, don't book anything. And
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: my team's like, don't book anything. And then I book things.
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: This is not a Friday. We're not on Friday.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad it's not a Friday. I would feel
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: really guilty.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: Oh my, I just like, ah, Like I should be
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: taking Fridays off, but I really, I'm a workaholic. So
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: it's really hard.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: I'm going to sneak in one last question. You mentioned
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: to me before we began that last year was the
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: year that you found manifestation. I did.
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: I need to know how.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: Okay. So I am a science person. I'm a research person.
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: If I can see it and feel it and measure
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: it and touch it, I'm all about it. And I
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: think my mom's a little woo. So it was always like,
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: I'm not that. And so I was like, oh, manifestation,
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: like whatever. I didn't like not believe it, but I
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: just like didn't think it was like quote unquote real,
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: which I know, I know, I know there's research and
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: there's science. I know, I know.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Now I know.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: So I said to my team, this is two years ago,
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: I said, I love this podcast, I am a CEO.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: And it was big, but it wasn't as big as
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: it is now. And I was like, I want to
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: earn the privilege to be asked for that podcast. Like,
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: I think I need to do work to try to
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: be worthy of that show. And I said it out
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: loud to my team and everyone's like, okay, let's go. Like,
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: let's go. We were like doing labs. So I was like,
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: let me do some research that would get us on there.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: One week later, the producer reached out cold. We'd love
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: to have an S on the show.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: And I was like, what?
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: That was the first where I was like, that's weird.
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: Like I said it out loud and I was like
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: very intentional about like the work I wanted to do
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: to make it happen. Right. It wasn't just like saying it.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: It was like, I could visualize the process of like
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: what we could do to try to like make that
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: channel happen. And then it happened again. with Harvard. I
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: was told when I was applying to colleges, you're too stupid.
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: You won't get into Harvard. Your grades are not good enough.
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: I had a 4.2 GPA. I was not slouching, but
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: they were like, oh, your test scores aren't good enough.
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: Don't even apply. And I was like, shouldn't I just apply?
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: And they're like, don't even apply. I never even applied.
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: Didn't apply to Harvard. Then I was doing some work
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: at Stanford and I was like, gosh, I should have
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: applied to Harvard. Like I, why did I like, I
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: just like didn't take a chance on myself. Like I
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: should have just like switched my guns and applied. Like
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: if I ever get the chance, like I would like
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: throw my hat in the ring. And the next month
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: they reached out to have me teach.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: So like now I have a class at Harvard, even
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: though I never applied. Then it happened again with masterclass
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: where I was like looking at goals and I was like,
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: you know, it would be like so amazing to do
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: like an amazing course on communication, the course on communication
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: for masterclass. Masterclass is the place. Like, oh man, like
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: how would I, how would I even do that? I mean,
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm gonna start working on the curriculum that
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: I would teach in a masterclass, start practicing it in
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: my corporate retreats and see if I can like hone it.
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: So like I could apply, I feel like I could
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: do it. Two weeks later, they email me. Masterclass was
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: one of the biggest classes they ever had. So just,
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: I was like last year, I was like, okay, like
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: masterclass came out last October and I was like, okay, okay.
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: I believe, I believe. I believe it's real, man. It is.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: If you do it in that way, I think it's,
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: it's so real.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Well, I loved that you said, I want to earn the, yeah.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not like I want to get necessarily.
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: I want to earn. Yeah.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: That's really beautiful.
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And that's when it has worked, right? When I'm like,
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: I want to practice or I want to earn or
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: I want to work or that's when it seems to,
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: it's worked, it's worked like every time, you know? So
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: I'm like, you know, I don't know. Manifesting doesn't start
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: with a C, but I do love books that start
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: with a C. I am considering like my next book
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: maybe is called Clarity.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: Maybe.
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: I have had a few psychics on the podcast.
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to lie.
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: A few clairvoyants. Vanessa, you are such a joy. Thank
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: you for sharing so much time and knowledge and honesty
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: with us. Okay, you know what time it is. Today's
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: a good day to have a good day. I'll see
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: you next week.
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: Thank you.