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Transcript

That Basic B*tch Catherine Howard · Beheaded

0:05
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to season two, episode one.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm Megan Moore.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: And we're back! We're back! You guys, we made it back after the world basically exploding.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: We're back.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: We promised we would be back.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: We were not, we were not fooling you, we were not lying.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: We're not leaving you out to dry.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: We had a nice little break there.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Long break.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: We're still on break, really.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Our company still hasn't gone back to the office, so we're still working from home and it feels very much like quarantine to us still.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, I don't think we have many life updates.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: What have you done in the past seven months?
0:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, lots of things.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Lots of Netflix.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Lots of watch shows.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I watched some movies.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Some books.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Maybe developed new skills.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, nothing.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: I didn't absolutely nothing.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: I literally have nothing to share.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: No.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: I I told Megan this like a about a month ago.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know, when we actually get back to the office, if we get back to the office at some point, I'm gonna like see people I haven't seen since March of 2020.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna be like, oh my gosh, hi, like, how are you?
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Blah, blah, blah.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: We exchanged pleasantries, and I'm gonna be like, so what have you been up to?
1:18
SPEAKER_00: And literally no one is gonna have anything to say.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be this, well.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: Have you seen this show?
1:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's gonna be.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: I watched five seasons of Shits Creek.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I got really into Handmaid's Tale.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean, literally nothing.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: I actually, it was funny because I I keep like a journal of just like things I do daily.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: It's I don't know, whatever.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter what it's about.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's it's a gratitude journal, so I'm very grateful for things that happened in my life.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: And I write five things down a day that I'm grateful for.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was reflecting like at the beginning of the pandemic, and I saw that me and Robbie at the time were watching Sopranos, and I was like, can you believe that we watched Sopranos in March?
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Because since then we've probably crushed like 10 shows.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: He was like, No, he's like, we watched Sopranos last year.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: I was like, no, it was only March.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, so spin.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like oh it's like it feels so long ago, but at the same time, I feel like it was yesterday.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like also at the same time, slowest year, but also fastest year.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Like, how is it already October?
2:13
SPEAKER_00: It's like I feel like this year shouldn't count.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, we shouldn't get another year older.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, we can't keep track of time right now because it's all just like frozen in time.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: It's a very weird thing.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, we've done things to keep ourselves busy.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: Megan took up piano.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: A little.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: I know one song.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: I know part of one song.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: I like it because all your keys are labeled here.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: So, side story, we went to Colorado to visit my family for a bit, and that we have a piano in our living room at home.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: So my mom was like, Oh, Megan, like you play the piano, right?
2:43
SPEAKER_00: She's like, No, I play one song.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: She's like, Oh yeah, I can.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: And she goes up to it, she's like, Well, these keys aren't labeled.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: Where are the letters?
2:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't know where the letters are.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: I need the letters on the colors, and then the YouTube video in order to do that.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: I just read notes, I can memorize where to put my fingers on certain letters.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: You did good.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: You can play it.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: I can play part part of your world.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: If you want to, you know, have at it.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe at the very end, maybe our song.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll do.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: And and let me know if you can even recognize what the song is.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: That's fair.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: We could do that.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: I've been practicing it for like five months.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: That one little song.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: You were doing at the beginning, you were doing a bunch of songs.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: You did like some Taylor Swift songs, right?
3:22
SPEAKER_01: I did.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: I did some Coldplay.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: I know, but I forgot.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: I did that that was like short-term memory.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't go back and do them.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Shoot.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, that's what we have the rest of the pandemic for.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: That's also what editing is for.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was uh interesting quarantine.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know how you guys are worldwide.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: We actually have, I think, listeners in like 25, 26 countries now, which is a lot.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: And if you guys keep track of what's happening in America, America's the worst right now.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: We just can't get it together with what we're doing with all this COVID stuff.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: No, and like everything right now is tense, like everything in our climate, and we're not a political podcast, like, we're not gonna bore you with like this is the political climate of America right now.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: But it just has to be kind of touched on because it's ridiculous.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: Every state is different, every state's different, every county's different, everyone has different restrictions and dealing with different things.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: And everything you say is somehow a political statement now.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Like your opinion on masks, like your opinion on eating outside or not.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: Like eating outside or not, and like you all the racial injustice justice things that are going on, because like in the US, you know, we have professional football and like people are doing like the kneeling thing, um, during national anthems.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: So now people like aren't watching football.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: So like everything you say, you can't even just be like, oh, but you know, how about them cowboys on Sunday?
4:43
SPEAKER_00: Because everything's now like, well, I don't watch football.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh well, I don't wear a mask, well, I go here and I do this, and everything's a statement.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and I just want to say, like, kind of what Elizabeth just said, we are not here to share our opinions by any means.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Give us politics of the 1500s to talk about, and we are all about that.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: But politics of 2020, I'm sorry, that's not what beheaded is for.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: I will say love, equality for all, and you know, we're gonna leave it at that.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: I think we can say like it's very tense right now.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: Elections are coming up, and hopefully, this is a little bit of an escape for you.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: You can listen to us banter about nice, pleasant things like beheadings and execution torture, um, drawn and quartering.
5:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all the all the favorite types of execution.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: All the feel-good things of life.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the things that matter.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: That's what we're here for.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and slash save us.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Someone come take us out of this country.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would gladly like to be put in the Tower of London for take it to the tower.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Voluntary Tower of London.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: Please.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, so we we la we left off, gosh, March of 2020, which was the peak of everything happening.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: Was it March?
5:53
SPEAKER_01: No, no, when our last season episode was.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: I think it was March.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: We probably recorded in March, maybe released early April.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: I have to look at the time.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, but anyways, thank you for all of our fans who have stuck with us, who are now listening again, and also welcome to anyone who's new.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, I know we just kind of jumped straight into our conversation, but um, if you're here, if this is your first time, then welcome.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, each episode is about a historical execution.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: And we we put a fun twist to all the dark stuff of history.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we we don't stick to a timeline, we skip all over history, we skip all over the world.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we we do a lot of like heavy tutor-era, you know, British history, but we've done Egyptian things.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: We've talked about uh Mussolini, you know, we were gonna go all over the place.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: We cannot do any more Mussolini.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: I cannot get kicked off of Instagram again.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Correct, yeah.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: If you weren't here for that.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: You really don't like us.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: If you weren't here for that, we did get banned from Instagram for a bit because of our twice.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: Our harmless Mussolini post.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: Harmless.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, so we also want to hear from you guys.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: So feel free, reach out, message us, give us suggestions.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: We do have a pretty good lineup already planned for season two.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do want to just again thank anyone who has messaged us, reached out.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: I really, really love hearing from everyone.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: She's a little bad at returning messages.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: So sorry, you there's about a two-day to four-month lead time of hearing back because what's my reason?
7:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, well, COVID, yeah, I'm gonna relate to the code.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: Delays.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: Delays due to COVID.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm just really bad at social media.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: I okay, I didn't even realize that there are messages that come through on Instagram.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: And if I'm not already following that person, it's a request.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Requested?
7:39
SPEAKER_00: We sound like boomers.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: We sound like old people because we're like, I don't understand the request on the Instagram.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: I don't understand how to use the Twitter by any means.
7:47
SPEAKER_01: Over my head, I've tried.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: I saw um, thank you so much.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: We had someone reached out on Facebook.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: I replied four months later.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: It was very relevant at the time.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh Elizabeth Black had to start her own Instagram uh just because welcome to social media.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I you know me and my opposition of selfies and such, so it took me a while, but I'm here now and I have a whole like 10 posts, I think.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't think you're ever gonna see what she looks like.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna say.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: She's a hidden creature.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't embrace the whole vanity aspect.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna see a lot of like museums and restaurants and things that Megan and I do, you know.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: So if you're into that, please follow me.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm also here, so if you don't hear from Megan, because she's the one that it maintains all of our social media presence on Beheaded, I'm the social media manager.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: She's the manager of the social media.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: I do a good job.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: You come to me if like she's not holding up for end of the deal.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: If she's not getting back to you, you DM me and Elizabeth will take care of it for you.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, you should follow beheaded.podcast or what's your name?
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth Black1533.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth Black 1533, which is the year Anne Boleyn was crowned.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, was she actually ever crowned?
8:56
SPEAKER_00: She just came to- Yeah, no, she was.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's when she became queen.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes, so that is my handle.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Come find me.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: And if you if you missed uh our last episode of season one, I am actually a 15-generation descendant of the Boleyns, of Mary Boleyn, but uh Anne is my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great aunt.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Auntie Anne.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Auntie Anne.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Great pretzels.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: And believe it or not, I fabulous.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Believe it or not, I actually am for the first time reading the other Boleyn girl now, and like I feel such a strong attachment to Anne.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: Because she's so snarky and so.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: Wait, so more to Anne than Mary because you're more directly related to Mary.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: And I thought I would, that's why I picked up this book because I was like, oh, this is about Mary.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Mary's kind of boring.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: She is a little boring, gotta say.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: She's a good girl.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I mean, she was a mistress, but debatable because they said she had a lot of tryst at French court before she came to England.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: So it's hard to say, but in this book, specifically, they they make her a little bit more virginal.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: But you know, she's uh she's not my favorite.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: Oh, whatever.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: No, no one can deny Anne.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: So she wins all of our hearts.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, another relation to Anne Boleyn is our executed person, lady of the day.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: What would we call that?
10:14
SPEAKER_01: Who's someone who's been executed?
10:16
SPEAKER_01: An an executione?
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh execution.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: The execution of the city.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Because you're the executioner or the execution.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: Execution-ee.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: So she's the execution-ee of our story.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's correct.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Our executionee of the day is Queen Consort.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Catherine Howard.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Catherine Howard.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: Little Kitty.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: You may know her as Katie.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Katie.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: It's Katie.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: Katie.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Caddy.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: It's Caddy.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: It's Katy.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna call you Katie.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: I think they called her Kitty too at some point.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: No?
10:50
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you've thought of that.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: No.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, the the spelling of her name's interesting because I think most of it's Catherine with a C.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I've also seen Catherine with a K, but I also saw like one of her, we'll get into this obviously later, but love letters she apparently wrote, spelt it with a K and with a Y at the end.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, so I'm like, well, if she's the one that's signing her name, why don't we why aren't we true to that spelling?
11:12
SPEAKER_00: Why are we keep changing it?
11:13
SPEAKER_01: Well that's like Anne Boleyn, too, would sometimes sign her name as like Bolin, which is which was B-U-L-L-E.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: She doesn't know her last name?
11:21
SPEAKER_00: I maybe not.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: I guess we do take for granted uh reading and writing in this day and age.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: Maybe back then you couldn't even say your name.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I just want to spell my name however I want to spell it, I'll be like, deal with it.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: Deal with it.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: This is how I spell it today.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: I know ten different people spell it ten different ways.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: Actually, quick side note there was a girl on Megan's team, because again, we work in the same office, and I'm the one that like gets all the different forms people fill out for different reasons.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, I plan all the parties so I see all the RCPs.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: There is one girl on your team who every time she RCPs spells her name in a different way.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: I want to strangle this girl.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: I want to, she always lowercases her whole name.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: She spells it different every time, and I want to go up to her and wring her neck and be like, it's your name.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: It's the most important word you will ever utter.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, spell it right.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: I the the when you're like writing an important form or something, and all the time.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, like my husband and I just refinanced our home, so there's like a lot of signatures, and I was just like, this isn't even my signature.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm looking at it, I'm like, this doesn't even look like my name.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't look like I know how to spell my name.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: And each form, it just looked, I was I was trying so hard to make it look nice.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: The signature on every page just looked a little bit different.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Or like forgery.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure the notarizer was like, Can you keep your signature consistent, please?
12:37
SPEAKER_01: This isn't the time to test like how to make your signature look better.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Every time she's like, Okay, this time it's gonna be a little bit nicer.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: She's like, no, ma'am, we just need it to be consistent.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: We just need it to be a consistent signature.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it kills me.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh, and one time, really quick, again, about the same girl, because I'm not done with her yet.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, we had like a ceremony where I had to like print her name on something.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you remember this.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: And she came up to you after and she's like, you know, they spelled my name wrong on this certificate.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember them, but I and I you came to me and you're like, you know her name's spelled wrong.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: I was like, well, she doesn't even know the spelling of her name, so I literally would just with straight face didn't care.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I was like, well, maybe if she spelled her name correctly, I would spell her.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: That's a bit of a sassy for us at work.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm the one who gets to see it though, so that's entertaining.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm nice to people face to face.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: Face to face, you are, and then you come to me and you go, me, me, me, me, me.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: That's how I say it.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm here for.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: All right.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: All right, Catherine Howard.
13:28
SPEAKER_01: Jump in! I'm excited for this one.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: Girl, pretty.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: And before we get into her early history, um, we got some snacks that we thought represented her well.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, I got the wine for today from Trader Joe's.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: I like how you pull it up like people can see.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, and she's displaying so I can see it's because my eyes.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I have the wine in front of me.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: It's a rose.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: I thought rose was fitting for Miss Catherine because she's young, she's flighty, she's vivacious.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: I thought Rose was more of an appropriate wine.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: You told me rose is a basic drink, and Catherine Howard seems like a basic bitch.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in so many words, that's actually how I told Megan that I selected this wine.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is a uh Moonlight and Roses is the name of the wine, 2019.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: It looks very beautiful.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: It's a fine.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Wow, 2019, what a good year.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Remember 2019?
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Take me back.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you take me back.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: I know.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Never buy wine from 2020.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: It's a curse.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna get poisoned.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was cute for Ms.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Catherine Howard.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I got these shitty, god, what were they?
14:35
SPEAKER_00: They were cheese, it's called blitzes.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: The cheese blints.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Blints.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Never heard of this, but I saw it at Trader Joe's and I was like, Maybe it's a foreign thing?
14:42
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was a ricotta pastry, so I thought it was gonna be a really like savory, cheesy little snack.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: It is like sweet cottage cheese, like fruity flavored.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good way to describe it, like flavored cottage cheese and like a pastry puff.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: And we did not expect it, and uh we gave some to to Jake, Megan's husband, right before.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: We're like, here, try this.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: And he literally like And he'll eat anything.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: He just shoves it in his mouth without any question.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: He goes, ugh, and just spits it out right afterwards.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: We're like, what is this?
15:09
SPEAKER_01: He's like, this is expired.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: We're like, no, I just bought it today.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: It's just really weird.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: So I apologize.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm like, oh shit.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: What?
15:16
SPEAKER_01: I left the shepherd pie in the oven.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, and go get it.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: Go get it.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're gonna wait.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Take a really quick pause.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh shit, okay.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: That was like an hour ago.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, it's far.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: It's hold on, BRB.
15:28
unknown: Oh my god.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: So sorry about that.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: We're back.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: We're back.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: Wasn't burned.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: No, Jake saved the day, actually.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: He took it out.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: I didn't even realize.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: I was very scared.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: I thought your house was gonna be.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: I have to like take a breather.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: We'd come back and be like, um, on our first episode, Megan's house burned down.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: There's smoke everywhere.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I totally forgot about that.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: We made that a while ago.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like a good hour and a half ago.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: It said 30 minutes.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, we have Shepherd's Pie to keep with like our British essence.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, we have these lovely snacks.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna be more intentional about our snacks, we're gonna post our snacks.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, have fun looking at those on the gram.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: On the gram.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: We really are really proficient in the social media.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: We're really boomers right now.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay, Catherine Howard, do you want to take it off with her early life?
16:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we're gonna start with Catherine Howard's early life.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: So, Catherine Howard, if you're like, who the hell is Catherine Howard?
16:27
SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, you don't read books.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, she was the fifth wife.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Kidding, that's why you're here to learn.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Okay, um, she was the fifth wife of King Henry VIII.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about a little bit about her early upbringing and how she got to that point.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: So her father was Lord Edmund Howard.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Mother was named Joyce Culpepper.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: I remember that name.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: We'll get to that later.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, and she was the tenth child of her mother.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: So there was a huge family.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Her father was one of 21 kids.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: She was one of, I believe, 11 kids.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: She's 10 of 11.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Right, because her father had no mother had five children in her previous marriage, and then six with her father.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: So she has like five half siblings.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, five half siblings, six well five full siblings.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: We can do that.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: We've got a few roses.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, huge family, and it's a noble family, right?
17:25
SPEAKER_00: They're the English gentry.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: However, because there were so many people in her family, they're not a wealthy family by any means.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, her parents were really not involved in her life because there were so many children.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, her dad had to often beg for handouts from more affluent members of the family because he was the third son in his family.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: So okay, really quick.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: How the hell do you have 21 kids?
17:48
SPEAKER_01: That's a lot.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: I've heard of big families.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I guess it's possible like the Duggar, the Duggar family, like the 20 kids in counting.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: God, that's right.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's possible.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: But in the uh in this era, too.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Because so many, so many kids were miscarried, stillborns, like it's hard to raise kids in this era, you know, they're another mouth to feed, so 21 kids is a lot, which is why they didn't have any money.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: And so all the estates, all the wealth went to um her father's like older, oldest brother, and he didn't really get much.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: So again, he spent most of his life just kind of begging for things from his uh his other family members.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, but fun fact, which I actually really didn't know until we kind of got into her history, I I knew she was first cousins to Anne Boleyn.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, Elizabeth Howard, who's Anne Boleyn's mom, was actually Edmunds Howard's sister.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: So they're first cousins.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I didn't know she was second cousin to Jane Seymour.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: They're all related.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't know who Anne Boleyn is or Jane Seymour, uh, they're all wives of Henry VIII.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: So very incestuous.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Henry likes to keep it in the family.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: He does.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the way they're related too, if you're curious, uh Jane Seymour's grandma was sisters with Catherine Howard's grandma.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: So their second cousin.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: Their grannies.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: Grannies.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, so huge family, fairly poor family, even though they're noble.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, but she is born in Lambeth in 1523.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: So she was uh about five years old when her mother passed away, and her father really wasn't involved in her life, and again, there's so many children, so he just really sent her off to live with his stepmother, the Dowager Justice Duchess of Norfolk.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: So, in so many words, this place was basically where you sent kids that were noble but poor, like didn't have other paths to go on, you know, you didn't send them away to French court or anywhere fancy to be raised.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: You're like, go go live with my stepmom, go live in her.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of them too, right?
19:42
SPEAKER_01: They called them wards when it was like not like an adopted child you took on, but like someone who you're taking care of.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: I want a ward.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: I want a ward of children who just probably do errands for you.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, but uh but apparently the Duchess wasn't there all that often either.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: She was at court a lot, so she left the home.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, and there was just a pretty big lack of supervision.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, honestly, when I saw in if you've seen the Tudor series on Showtime, when I saw like this place they were in, I thought it was a brothel.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, he went to a whorehouse to find his wife.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: No, no, like it was actually like the home of this duchess who just kept all these aristocratic kids.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: These teenagers, these horny teenagers, horny teenagers, these damn horny teenagers.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Um all teenagers are these horny little teenagers.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, but there was there was no supervision, it was just this big house where they can, you know, they're they're already kind of brats because of their like nobility, but they don't have the money to back it.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: So they're all just there, and Catherine Howard really learned from the older girls there, like, oh, like I'm allowed to have men in my room at night.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, if I behave a certain way, I get gifts and I get wine and I get fancy food.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: So from an early age, she kind of learns, like, oh, like you do kind of some favors for boys and you get good things coming your way.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: So that was her upbringing.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, not the best, well groomed.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: She was not scholarly or particularly devout.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, we saw this on like several sources, but the way they described her was vivacious, giggly, and brisk.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, so she really liked to dance, she was all about joking, she was very light-hearted and never took anything very seriously.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh, she loved animals, particularly dogs, and that was her childhood.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: She just grew up in this big, like, party.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: Is that why uh he called her a basic bitch?
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Maybe why referenced Miss Catherine as a basic bitch.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: No, she's interesting.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: She's cool.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: She's cool, she's fine.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: Alright, so she's living in this household and they have all these boys coming over, and she's just being exposed to God knows what.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, God knows what, really.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: And she has a music instructor, Henry Maddox.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: Henry Maddox.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of controversy, and not yeah, not controversy, but I guess just like unknown facts about what actually of what happened.
21:59
unknown: I
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Would say the majority of people believe Henry Maddox, her music instructor, was about 36.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: And she was what like 12?
22:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, very young.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Young.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 12, 13.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and they were said to be, quote, engaged in sexual contact, but no not coitus.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Coitus.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Which is a term I learned research and Catherine.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Others are saying maybe he was a little bit younger and it was more of a consensual relationship, but there's a lot of people who are thinking that it was a non-consensual relationship, a little bit creepy there.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Especially if he's that old, because in that age, like by the time you're 30, you're middle-aged in that era.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: So if you're a like an older middle-aged man and you're not married and you're just hanging out on these young girls, like so a lot of people are on the on the boat of like she was molested by this guy.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Others think it was more consensual, and she did grow up around, you know, all of this debauchery, so it you know, they think, oh, she engaged in it willingly.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, you know.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of a an interesting part of her life, and didn't last very long, but still enough, I think, to mold her in such a way that I think did change her her whole life and gives her that impression that she is this like flirty and romantic yeah, young, silly girl.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: But really, when you think of that, if like that were modern times, that's actually really sad if she was just, you know, a child being thrown into this situation and right.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: So that was one part of her life living it with the um Dowager Duchess of Norfolk.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: And then comes Francis Darham.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: Really quick, Norfolk, Norfolk.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Norfolk Norfolk.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Norfolk?
23:36
SPEAKER_00: If we had accents, it would sound American.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry it sounds hideous, but you get it.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: They're hideous.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: Just the pronunciation, not us.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: They'll never know.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so Frances Darham comes in, and 1537 to 1539, they were lovers.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Lovers.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: And very much lovers to the point where they called each other husband and wife.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: They weren't technically legally married, but acted like husband and wife.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: She even took care of like some of his financial situations, and um, they definitely were sexual for sure.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: We were called sexually active.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Us old ladies, these sexually active, horny teenagers already.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: Hey, COVID has changed us.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: We're different people now.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that lasted for two years, and that is a really big important piece of this story that she was in love and considered herself married to Francis Darham at a very young age.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so 1537 minus 1523.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: How old was she?
24:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wait, you threw that at me real fast.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: 37 minus 23.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh, she was 14.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: 14.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: That happens.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: That happens when you're 14.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: Which, you know, now that I'm reading Other Boleyn Girl, uh, Miss Mary Boleyn was married to William Carey when she was 12.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: So maybe not that uncommon for this day.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
24:59
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we just move too slow.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's a nice thing.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm 32 and still on wood.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Basically an old woman.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: Basically a spinster.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: You're basically Anna Cleaves.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Who wants to eat you?
25:13
SPEAKER_00: She looks like a horse.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um, but so the reason their relationship ended, uh, Catherine and Frances Durham is because the Dowager Duchess found out.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, she made them end the relationship.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: And it was a little unclear if when they ended their relationship, they decided, like, hey, we're gonna have a formal betrothal before God and consummated their relationship.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: Let's make this real if you guys want to be serious.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: So like they were kind of playing house.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Basically.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so people aren't sure if they just had a romantic lover type of relationship or if they actually had a pre-contract that back then, in in the eyes of God, if you were essentially like wedded and bedded, like it was a done deal.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Even if you didn't have a formal marriage or a ceremony, if you exchanged vows before God and you had slept together, then you were formally betrothed, and that was okay.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: But we're a little unclear if that happened or not.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, which will come up later because that's kind of a crucial point in her fate.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: You'll find out.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, so Catherine Howard's uncle was Thomas Howard, the Duke of Norfolk.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Shoot.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: I can't say Duke of Norfolk.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: The Duke of Norfolk.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Norfolk.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Norfolk.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: No.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Now it sounds like a swear word.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: Norfolk.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: We'll say Norfolk just so we don't sound like we're not.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: We'll just say Thomas Howard.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Or Nor F U C K.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: No, don't say Thomas Howard.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Duke of Norfolk.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: I apologize.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: And luckily for for Catherine, her uncle was very prestigious.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: He was a part of the court, he was an aristocrat.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Had the king's ear.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: And he basically invited Catherine into King Henry's court.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: And at this time, King Henry VIII was married to Anne of Cleves.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Right, who was the fourth wife.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: The fourth wife.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Very quick uh marriage.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: Basically, they were annulled very quickly because he didn't like her.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um, but Anne of Cleves was a quick, you know, fling after Jane Seymour had died.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, so when Catherine Howard was lady in waiting to Anna Cleves, she quickly caught Henry's eye, which, as you know, is a wandering eye, always looking at someone.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: And he was about 49 at this era, or at this age.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: So she he's 30.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: The oddie years in his prime.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: In his prime, oh fat.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about King Henry VIII's prime.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: Oh, she's fabulous.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, fat and ugly and bearded and grossly gluttonous, eight swans, rotting legs and whatnot.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: So, so at this point, he's t uh 49.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: He catches a glimpse of young Miss Catherine and immediately pursues her.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's there's a kind of a theory, and like I think most representations of Catherine Howard is that she was just young and simple, and they just like you know, came together because she was beautiful and he was powerful.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, but some people do think that her family might have pushed her into this a bit because of all the damage Anne Boleyn did in their eyes.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh, she pushed Protestantism, so what we're gonna do is get Catherine involved and push her Catholic um Catholic beliefs a little bit more.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: So who knows if that's actually true?
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, but most people have the perception that she was just again, like kind of right place, right time.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: Here's this beautiful girl, here's this old king.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, but he had many fancy things to say about her when they first met.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: He said he'd never known the like of any other woman, that she was the very jewel of womanhood.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: And this is kind of debated if it was a myth or not, but often called her a rose without a thorn.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: Because it's like, you know, he's the Tudor Rose that has many thorns.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: She's the beautiful rose without a thorn.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: She's perfect.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: She's perfect.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: And who wouldn't be at 15, 17, 17, whatever she is?
28:54
SPEAKER_00: Um so he immediately again courts her, gives her lands, give her, gives her expensive clothes.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and she was just this kind of silly girl that took it all and accepted it and smiled and danced her way around the castle.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: So by uh July 28th, 1540, they were married.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: It was actually the same day that Thomas Cromwell was executed.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Another episode.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: So we'll have another episode.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Another day for Thomas.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they they were married.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, she was asked to basically have a motto and a shield that represents who she was.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: And we thought this was funny.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: We were looking at this before we started uh podcasting.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: But her motto was no other wish but his, which his is supposed to be related to God, but it's just kind of ironic because it's like such a submissive type of motto, like no other will but his.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: And so I think you know, you can easily interpret that as well, Henry just runs your life.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: Um and she has this shield that's basically uh a crown that is above white and red roses, um, the red for grace, the white for love and faith.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: So it Henry's is actually the same.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: It's it's a white and red.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: So of course hers is just the most similar to Henry's.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: Out of any of the wives, hers happens to look exactly like a rose and your shield that looks exactly like Henry's.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: So here she is.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: Um get an identity, get your own life.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh but you know, she was really too young to engage herself in much else.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: Like she didn't attend state business, she did nothing, you know, in terms of queenly duties.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: She really was just there to accept new clothes and uh move some of her family to court.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: They remodeled the palace at Whitehall.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh, they really didn't do anything important together.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, I think most of his wives, you can say they had certain agendas or certain political things that they wanted to pursue, and she literally was just there.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: And also, really quickly, so we called her earlier queen consort.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Not queen just queen Catherine.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: Because queen consort means you are not a queen in your own right.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: She's only sharing this the status and the title as her husband.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: So as long as she's married to Henry or Henry's alive or Henry's king, then she's queen.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: But she can't just be queen on her own.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: Which again, like she just seems kind of like, I'm just here to make things look pretty.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: And I just want the castle to look nice.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: And I just want to wear pretty gowns and go dancing and have fun.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Basically.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: Sounds great, actually.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't know I was gonna say, not a not a bad thing.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: Not a bad.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: But you know, even in the tr the Anne Boleyn era, people kind of accused Anne Boleyn of just like, oh, she was fun and hosted these lavish parties and blah blah.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: But that was when she was closer in age to Henry.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: So her and Henry had fun together.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: They were both kind of young together and had these lavish parties together.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: Where at this point, like she, you know, Catherine Howard is 17, um, King Henry is 49.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: He at the time had his jousting injury on his leg, so he didn't dance with her, he didn't do anything.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: Like he just drank and sat around and ate and was gluttonous and gross at this point.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's my favorite version of Henry.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't even care.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: It's a bit of a different dynamic uh than he had with some of his you know previous wives when he was younger because he's just old at this point, just watching his lovely little bride flitter around until 1541, and they're not married very long at this point.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: So they did they have the shortest marriage, do you know?
32:17
SPEAKER_01: Altogether, they were married 18 months.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: Was that shorter than Anna Cleeves?
32:21
SPEAKER_01: Ah, that's a good question.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: I'd have to look that up.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna look that up.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: Alright.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: Um follow-up for next episode.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Thomas Culpepper jumps into the picture.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: Thomas Culpepper.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Bash from Rain.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: Bash from Rain.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: If we're referencing the actors here, um, if we're talking about the tutors.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: We're talking about the tutors.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, that he was, oh gosh, actually, I don't have this in my notes.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: What exactly was he to King Henry VIII?
32:47
SPEAKER_00: He was I just had that he was the favorite male courtier.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was like one of his like I want to say men in waiting, I don't think that's the right term, but like it could be lady in waiting, gentlemen in waiting.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: In the tutors, it shows him as like an usher, you know.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: He was there to like monitor the doors and do all the little usherly things.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I could yeah, I couldn't actually find a real title for him either.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like he wasn't prestigious or anything, he wasn't a courtier, he was in the household.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: He was a courtier.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: Oh, he would be considered that.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but he was in the household and he was working there.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he had more active roles, he wasn't just like there to drink around the castle.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was working.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Um and he's young, handsome, right up little Katie Howard's.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: He was said to have many admirers too.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: So women love Thomas Culpepper as men loved Catherine Howard.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: Elizabeth and I were kind of going back and forth on this a little bit.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: I read some records that they were set up.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: Catherine Howard, when she first came to court and she was a lady in waiting to Anne of Cleves, was supposed to be married to Thomas Culpepper.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, I couldn't find a lot on that.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: So we did see that reference.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: I saw it at least once.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know if anyone knows more about that.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: Let us know.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: Love to hear from you.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: But it's kind of ironic because wait four months, I'll get back to you.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: If you message me, I'll message you back in five months.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: It's cool.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, it's it's kind of funny because had she just stayed as a lady in waiting to Anna Cleves, you know, and not really interfered with their marriage, like maybe she just would have rode off in the sunset with Thomas Culpepper and her whole life would have been free.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: She would have just been happy.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: But she wanted all along.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: She wanted she wanted the latest French fashion, she wanted new clothes.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: But she started visiting Thomas Culpepper.
34:25
SPEAKER_01: And at night.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: At night.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: In her chambers, in her bed, naked, probably.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Probably.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Probably naked.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: And one of Catherine Howard's Lady in Waiting, which is Lady Jane Rochford.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: I hate this woman.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: No, yes.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: Nothing else.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: I like her.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: We'll get into her in other episodes as well.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: But Lady Roger is.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: You can explain who Lady Rochford is.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: Lady Rochford.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: So again, we go very out of order in this show.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: I know we have not talked in depth.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: We have not done an episode on Anne Boleyn.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: Don't worry, she will come.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: Stay tuned.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: She's a big one.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: But Lady Jane Rochford was George Boleyn's wife.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: Who was Anne Boleyn's brother.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: So she was the sister-in-law to Anne Boleyn.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: And very briefly, Jane Boleyn, we can call her.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: She was kind of involved in the whole scandal of how her husband and her sister-in-law went down.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Their whole downfall.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: She was not a very helpful fac.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: She was not in their favor.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: She was not helping them try to get out of anything.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: So she was she was a little bit feisty from the beginning.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: She was kind of known to be a gossip too.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: So again, I know I've referenced this two times now, but in the other Boleyn Girl.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: It's fresh.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: You're reading it.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm reading it now.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: I I you guys, I've started reading it two days ago and I'm already 200 pages in, so I'm like deep in this book.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like a 650-page book, I think.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: Someone pass that on to Philippa Gregory.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Tell her we like it.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: It's just you know, it's one of those things where you just get so sucked in.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Um plus it's my family, so I'm really heavily invested.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh but but her name originally is Jane Parker before she's married as a Boleyn.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: Um so she's Jane Parker who becomes Jane Boleyn, but she's also known as Lady Rochford, and they Again, lots of names.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know, but they describe her in this book.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: They were like, oh, she's the worst.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: Like Anne in this in the book specifically says, like, she's just such a gossip and she sets people up and she's so snake-like, and you know.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: She's just she's just this person that goes around like doing favors for people, instigating things, stirring the pot.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: So she, at least in my eyes, doesn't have a very good rep.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: She's just supposedly.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: But she is helping Catherine Howard Trist up.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we both have different words to that.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: Hook up, have trists, whatever.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: That's a very nice way of saying it.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, have an affair with Thomas Culpepper.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Wow, she's married to King Henry VIII.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: And this is not a guy I would mess with.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: And if I was married to King Henry VIII, knowing what he's done in the past to Anne Boleyn, to your cousin.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: But so far, divorced, beheaded, died, divorced.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Is that where we're at right now?
37:01
SPEAKER_00: So, what do you think is happening next to you?
37:03
SPEAKER_00: Do you think you wanna have an affair at this time?
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Wasn't super smart to put the two and two together and realize what her fate was like.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: Very smart.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Thomas Culpepper called her his sweet little fool.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: So even he doesn't think she's very smart.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: He's like silly girls.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: Stupid wench.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna go down for this.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:20
SPEAKER_01: But they were very much in love with each other, supposedly, would write love letters back and forth.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, Catherine Howard went on progress with King Henry VIII.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: They would do this during the plague.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: So the whole house, whole, like the whole castle would, which this is kind of what we did during COVID.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: We're like, let's get out of here, let's go.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: Let's go to Columbia, let's go to Colorado, let's go hiking.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: But they would go on progress and they would go around to the countryside and get away.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: And during that time, she would like beat, well, Henry, you know, how often did he really sleep with her because he was largely grotesque with his rotting leg.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Um she had her rooms, and Jane Rochford got this figured out, like got their rooms connected with Catherine and Thomas Culpepper so that she could sneak away in the middle of the night and have her little rendezvous and then go back in bed the next morning and everything was fine.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: And Lady Rochford would keep watch all night.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, that's the greatest part.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: So she was absolutely involved in this and protected Catherine and Thomas and tried to keep their their secret and made it happen.
38:21
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then on top of that, like Catherine Howard was in a very risky situation because not only was she doing all of this, but she was having old friends coming up from her from her old days.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: From the days when she was with the Dowager.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: And they were blackmailing her trying to get favors and get it, yeah, get jobs in the household and become a courtier because they knew her past and they knew she was not that innocent, sweet little rose without a thorn.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: Which I always find ironic because, especially with King Henry, like these men of power are so attracted to these like wild, frisky little girls, you know, who are like, ooh, like she knows the ways of the French court.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, she has a lot of like, you know, sexual knowledge, blah blah blah.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: And then as soon as they become like wife and queen, they're like, oh my god, you weren't a virgin when we married.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Shocker.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: I thought this was just your own innocence coming through.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: It's always funny how they spake it.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: It's okay if he's if they're flirtatious with him the second they're flirtatious as they are in their natural state.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: It's what else are you gonna do at court?
39:26
SPEAKER_01: So these old friends start coming up, whispers are starting to happen that people are blackmailing her, and it's gotta get out there that she's rendezvousing with Thomas Culpepper.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, Thomas Thomas Cramner, uh, who's the Archbishop Archbishop of Canterbury, he begins a full-on investigation and interrogation to really dig into her sexual history and find out what she's done wrong/slash is doing wrong at present.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, so they find out a little bit more about what she did at her time at the Dowager Duchess's house, you know, with Maddox, um, with um I'm gonna say his name wrong.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: Frances Darum.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Frances Derem.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: Frances Derham.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: So he digs into that a bit, and then once he tells the king, he like slips a note to him and is like, hey, like, by the way, this is what your bride essentially has done.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, she gets put under house arrest, and apparently she went bananas when they did put her under house arrest, and just so uh, you know, she cried, she screamed, she applauded things, you know.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: So they got to the point where they actually had to remove objects from her room because they were like, she's gonna commit suicide if we leave her alone in her, you know, in her apartments.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna remove it.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: We wanna we wanna be the ones who are you don't end yourself, you're gonna have to wait a little bit longer.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: So, really quick, do you want to tell the when she went hysterical down the hallway?
40:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's this time.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: So this is um a point when again she she was completely hysterical, didn't understand why how she offended the king, which you know how you offended the king, lady.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: Um but one time when Harry was at uh I I guess it was Chapel.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: Did you say Harry?
41:07
SPEAKER_00: I did say Harry.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh! I kind of like it.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: It's actually funny because Don't they call him that as a nickname sometimes?
41:13
SPEAKER_01: Like in the show, the tutors Thomas Moore would be like Harry.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't think that happened.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: It did.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Did it?
41:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember that.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: Never mind.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, no, but it's funny that you mentioned that because uh Megan asked me when I was reading other boleni girls, she's like, How do you see Henry?
41:27
SPEAKER_00: Do you see him as like young strapping Henry from the Tutors, or do you see him as like old fat Henry from the portraits?
41:33
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you know, I see him as a Prince Harry.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: I see him as like modern-day Prince Harry who is like red haired with a beard and like handsome, you know, maybe like getting a little bit older, but that's how I see him in the book.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's funny that I just in my head, this is my image of Henry at the time.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: Is this glad you see Hestra in such a good way?
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Henry.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: Henry.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: So the guards are arresting her.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: But you didn't finish the story about her, how she runs down the hallway.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: I s I'm doing it literally right now.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: Proceed.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: So the guards are arresting her, and she's in hysterics, and she breaks free and she runs down the hallway, and she's they're in Hampton Court Palace, and she's running down a gallery, and she Henry is praying at this time, and she's like, This is so out of etiquette from anyone back then to like just approach the king and be, you know, and she's like, It's me, no, how can you arrest me?
42:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm your wife, I'm your little Catherine, I'm your rose without a thorn, and just hysterical.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I love that there's multiple accounts that she did this, which I think was just really shocking for everybody because you have to know when something like this is going on at court, uh, everyone knows.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: There's rumors are flying, everyone's whispering, like, have you heard what Catherine did?
42:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think Catherine's getting arrested.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like when someone's getting in trouble and everyone's like looking around and like, is someone getting fired?
42:53
SPEAKER_00: Like everyone's kind of feeling it out.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: You're doing like the groundhog thing and your cubicles, you're just kind of popping up.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: Everyone's everyone looking up, seeing what's happening, and then there's this huge scene, and she's crying and hysterical, and racing down the galleries of Hampton Court Palace.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: And she's so young at this point.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of you know, queens in the past have been at least dignified enough to like hold it together and be like, okay, I have to appear strong.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look at Steely, yeah, Boleyn.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: Mary Queen of Scots, who we spoke of.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: She kept a queen the entire time.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and she's a young girl.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: She's 17.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: Hysterical.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: Um probably drunk.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Probably on rose all day.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: Probably just drinking rose all day.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: So she's a wreck.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: And there's the investigation going on now.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: And she she denies that she had any kind of pre-contract um with Francis de Darham.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: But that was a part of it.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just are you sleeping with Thomas Culpepper now?
43:48
SPEAKER_01: But it was also, what did you do before you got married?
43:50
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: So she denies the pre contract with Darum, um, which it's funny because honestly, had she just said yes, had she said, you know what, we would Did call each other husband and wife.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: We were lovers and we did intend to marry and we wedded and bedded and blah blah blah.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: She probably would have just been like, okay, well, this marriage is annulled because you technically were betrothed, like before the king.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: So you ha she said she was a virgin, right?
44:13
SPEAKER_01: She went to Henry's bed.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: They could have just had that be the end of it, sent her away, like, you know, stripped of her queenly, not that she had many queenly responsibilities, but stripped her of her title, sent her dresses.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: But instead, she denied the pre-contract, she denied everything that happened.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: Slowly, some of the story came out about Culpepper, but she said, Well, he just comes to my chambers and we talk.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Like, nothing happens.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: But at this point, they finally decided, you know what, there's too much evidence against you.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: So November 23rd, 14 1541, they imprisoned her and stripped her of her title.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: They were like, That's it, like you are officially.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: They held her in Scion Abbey, which was like an old con like nunnery?
44:54
SPEAKER_01: I think it's like a lot of things.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like an old nunnery, but it wasn't being used.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize, like, so they kept her there like all winter.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: So she was put in there in the end of November.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: December 1st, Culpepper and Darum were both tried and were both arraigned for high treason.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: Ten days later, December 10th, they were both executed.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: So here's our first.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: So this is kind of like a try.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: No, for what do you call a qua execution.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: Qua well.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: Qua execution.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: Quadri.
45:23
SPEAKER_01: Quadrics.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're gonna start making execution words.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: Um Culpepper was beheaded for adultery with the queen.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: And he was a little bit more noble.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, so they just gave him a simple beheading.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, hey.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: Simple, easy, simple.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: Big, easy, quick, quick uh, click well, click coin.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: Quick quote pro.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: Quick and clean execution.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, so they beheaded Culpepper, but Darum, because he was more of a lonely commoner, uh, lowly, not lonely, probably lonely too.
45:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, but he was sentenced to being drawn and quartered, which as if you remember the Braveheart episode, you know exactly how that goes down.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: He was so hanged first, and then all of your guts taken out of you, beheaded, and then horses go four separate ways to tear up the rest of your body.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: So And then they would like separate the legs and the arms into the body parts of the country.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so they took both of their heads, coal peppers and durhams, and this is a funny not funny, a new thing.
46:26
SPEAKER_00: It's funny.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: No, we learned it about we learned it about what they would do to the heads that were displayed on London Bridge.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: Because that's what they did with their heads.
46:34
SPEAKER_00: They put them on display in London Bridge, and we found out that they didn't actually take them down until 1546, which is four years or five years.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: Five years.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: Five years ago.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: So five years their heads were on the bridge.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: And we were like, okay, what does that mean?
46:46
SPEAKER_00: They're just like they disintegrate and they go into skeleton, like there's a skull sitting there.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: But we found out that they try to preserve the heads by dipping them in tar first.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: So, which kind of is interesting because it makes the face a little bit unrecognizable.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: You're not sure who this tar face is that's just staring back at you.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: But that's how they preserve the heads, you know.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: It's like a modern day embalming to be like, here, like you're gonna look at this.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: And of course they did it as like a fear factor.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: But do you think people ever would go up and be like, hey uh, you want to check out Culpepper?
47:15
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like seeing a celebrity's head.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: Would you would you ever see it up close?
47:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, could you ever get close to it?
47:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, it was on the bridge.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: I know.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: I guess you go on like when underneath, I don't know.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know where on the bridge I don't know.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: So I guess at a certain point, you can take a little like catwalk on the bridge and like go right past it, or do you have to see it from a distance?
47:32
SPEAKER_01: I do, so I did a little bit of I went down a little bit of a tangent on these heads.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: A little rabbit hole.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: A little rabbit hole of heads.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: At one point there were up to 30 heads spiked on the tower bridge.
47:43
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: And they're they started spiking these heads in 1530 and didn't stop the tradition until 1660.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: That's a long time.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't I don't think it was that they just put every single head up there, but definitely like the meaningful ones.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: The the people of on the front page of like lungeon today.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: If you want page six, you just go to the tower, and you're like, ooh, Thomas Culpepper, eh?
48:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: So like William Wallace, Thomas Cromwell, Sir Thomas More, like these like really big figures.
48:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
48:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, where their sp their heads were put up there.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: And kind of gross.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: Very gross.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: Kind of cool, kinda gross, kind of cool.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: So so that was the fate of Culpepper and Durham.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I thought this was probably the funniest part of the whole uh punishment timeline.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: But January 29th, which is you know, new year of the next year, 1542.
48:39
SPEAKER_00: She's still in prison.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: She's still in prison.
48:41
SPEAKER_01: And again, when we say imprisoned, we don't mean that she was thrown in a dirty cell in chains and shackles.
48:47
SPEAKER_01: Like she it was more like a house arrest, so she still was like wearing dresses, and but she was they had no, you know, couldn't do anything frivolous.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: Like couldn't leave.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: No parties, you can't leave, you know, arrested still.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: But and she's not like living in luxury per se, but she's not like thrown in the corner of the tower.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: You're not in the dungeon.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
49:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, so all of a sudden, they pass this bill of attainder, and this is so funny because it's exactly specific to what she did, and they're like, we have this new law we just rolled out.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: The law is, yeah.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: The law is within 21 days of your marriage, you have to disclose all of your sexual history, and you can't entice anyone to sleep with you while you're a married queen.
49:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, you can't invite adultery.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: That's specific.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that specific?
49:36
SPEAKER_00: 21 days.
49:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not exactly.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: So me and Megan were like, does that mean on the 22nd day she was in bed with Henry and was like, hey, like, how funny when I was young I did this thing, and then that's why he was like, you know what?
49:46
SPEAKER_00: You only had 21 days.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: You had 21 days, to tell me about all your sex life.
49:51
SPEAKER_01: Is your cutoff after that year and dishonest little harlot.
49:55
SPEAKER_01: Right, heartlet.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: Heartlet.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: Heartlet.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: We were really on our words today.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: We're really good at this.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: We'll get better as the season goes on.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: But made a very specific law that basically sentenced her to death because of this brand new law that applied only to her.
50:09
SPEAKER_01: They proposed the law on January 29th, passed the law on February 7th.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: By February 13th, she was that was her execution date.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: So that's how quickly it was.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: 7 in the morning, exactly.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: They they officially rolled it out to her.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: They said, hey, 7 in the morning, Monday, February 13th, you're going to be beheaded.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: I kind of like how it's like right before Valentine's Day.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: Because she's nursing.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: Romantic, flighty, you know, like I don't know.
50:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't think they had St.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: Valentine's back to it.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: That's actually a good question.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: That should be a follow-up for next episode, too.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:43
SPEAKER_00: Was Valentine's Day a thing then?
50:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, but she had no trial, so she showed up completely like panicked, pale, um, in a black velvet simple dress, just terrified.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: She did practice though.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: She did.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: This was funny.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: She wanted to be composed.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: She wanted to look nice on her execution day.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: Which I would want to look nice on my execution day.
51:04
SPEAKER_00: A little rehearsal, shall we say, the night before.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: The night before, so so backing up a few steps.
51:13
SPEAKER_01: So she was being held in Scion Abbey.
51:15
SPEAKER_01: They then the guards take her to the Tower of London.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: And she knew at that point, once you're going to the Tower of London, that's kind of the final step.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: And evidently she was panicked and screaming and h in hysterics.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: And as she was going to the tower, she saw the heads of Darum and Culpepper, her two past lovers.
51:34
SPEAKER_01: So that's gotta be a shocking moment to realize okay, we're not fooling around here.
51:39
SPEAKER_01: This is serious.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: Right.
51:41
SPEAKER_01: My past lovers just got executed, and I'm next.
51:45
SPEAKER_01: So that's gotta be terrifying.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: But she was not composed at the time and she was hysterical.
51:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think she realized that she needed to get herself together, like, pull yourself together, woman.
51:55
SPEAKER_01: So she asked if she can get the block sent to her ta to her like cell and practice the like process of laying her head down and putting her hands full.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: And it's I think it's such a testament to who she was because she cared about vanity and wanted to be poised and cared what she looked like and wanted people to be like, wow, she's so beautiful.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: What a beautiful woman.
52:18
SPEAKER_01: Even in execution, even as she's about to get her head cut off, she lays her head down so gracefully in just the right way, knows exactly where to hold onto the block.
52:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, so she practiced all night, which is just kind of this creepy, ghostly image on her setting her head down, or or like, I don't know, how would how would you do it?
52:37
SPEAKER_01: Would you put your head down to the side?
52:39
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: How she did it in the in the show, or would you stick it out straight forward and look down?
52:44
SPEAKER_01: No, I would stick it mine to the side.
52:46
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, and our sound might be off because we're both doing bobbing our.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: Elizabeth has her hair like pulled up practicing, right?
52:51
SPEAKER_01: I have my hair pulled up.
52:52
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like a block, right?
52:54
SPEAKER_01: My little bit.
52:55
SPEAKER_00: I would hold the block and I would put my head down so that my Actually, no, I would do Ooh, that's hard to say.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: Because I have a good side and a bad side.
53:04
SPEAKER_00: I've heard about this good side.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: Don't get me stuck in the back.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: It's a thing.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: And it has to do with my braces and which one of my cheeks is slightly larger than the other.
53:13
SPEAKER_00: You're crazy.
53:14
SPEAKER_00: Because we're all slightly symmetrical and all of us.
53:16
SPEAKER_00: No, no, all of us have a good and a bad side.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: But my right side is my good side.
53:20
SPEAKER_00: So I would probably position it to where my left side was on the block.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: And my right side would be the good side showing, and everyone's wow, like what a stunning woman.
53:31
SPEAKER_00: She doesn't deserve that right cheek.
53:33
SPEAKER_00: Look at that cheekbone.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I have a better eyebrow on this side, I have a better like lip on this side.
53:40
SPEAKER_00: Everything's just slightly, you know, yes on this side.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: Megan sees it.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: Megan sees it.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: She knows.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: So when she You didn't answer the question, I get to answer the question and tell what I would do.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: I want to be dramatic and I would stick my neck out like a turkey, and then I would like throw my hands up and be like, Frida.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: I'll pull up William Wallace.
54:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: I believe on that episode you said you wanted to die 90 years old in your bed, so it's ironic.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: So brave.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: But you know, I could I could see you being kind of like joke, jokestery about him, being like, ooh, here's the.
54:16
SPEAKER_00: I'd be like, can't catch me.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: Oh, did you miss?
54:18
SPEAKER_01: No, that would be bad because he would like to.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you don't want to move.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to flinch.
54:22
SPEAKER_01: No.
54:22
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, okay, it's fine.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: So uh February 13th.
54:26
SPEAKER_01: Um she they said that she was composed, which is probably from the rehearsing.
54:33
SPEAKER_00: So she looked beautiful.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: She was composed, but very pale and terrified looking, which like, no shit.
54:41
SPEAKER_01: Like, why wouldn't you be?
54:42
SPEAKER_00: I like that people even comment on that.
54:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's not.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: Wow, she was a little pale.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: It's assumed that you're pale and terrified.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: You're about to get your head cut off.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: Wasn't she kind of pale up there?
54:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she didn't look super great.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: She should have put some cover girl on you.
54:54
SPEAKER_00: Should have pinched her cheeks a little bit before she went upstairs.
54:57
SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
54:57
SPEAKER_01: Okay, last words, one of our favorites.
55:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so this is interesting because if you've seen again, we know we've referenced this, but the show The Tutors on Showtime, um, she says, I die a queen, but I would rather have died the wife of Culpepper.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: And that's hard.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: That's more of a myth.
55:17
SPEAKER_00: People people aren't sure if that's exactly right because there's really no like first account witnesses that have said that.
55:23
SPEAKER_00: But it became a popular thing that was spread around the kingdom.
55:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, do you know before she died, she procla she, you know, confessed and proclaimed her love to Culpepper.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: But uh it may have been more so that she just said that her sentence was worthy and just and she deserved of what she got.
55:38
SPEAKER_00: She begged for mercy for her family, had prayers for her soul, you know, talked about the king in a typical beheading fashion.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is nice to think about that maybe at the end she said she loved Culpepper.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: I kind of like that version because you kind of want to think of her as like a romantic and maybe the true love was was with Culpepper.
55:57
SPEAKER_01: Right.
55:57
SPEAKER_00: At this point, she's 19.
55:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I kind of like that version of it.
56:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh speaking of her family.
56:03
SPEAKER_01: So that was very true that normally at your execution you would say only nice things about the king because the fear was you can pour more wine.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
56:11
SPEAKER_01: Elizabeth has a look and she's going towards the bottle.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm staring at Megan and I'm holding my hand on the wine, and I'm like, Can I can I do this?
56:16
SPEAKER_00: Is this too loud?
56:17
SPEAKER_00: I've done it before.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: This bottle though is specifically really loud, so do the pot.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: That's very loud.
56:23
SPEAKER_00: Excuse me.
56:24
SPEAKER_00: Continue with your story.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: I'll wait.
56:26
SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
56:28
unknown: Okay.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: And so Catherine Howard's family, Henry, I did not know this, that Henry still had all of them arrested.
56:37
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: The Duke of Norfolk, her uncle, was the only smart one who knew how to play the game at the time because there's more history on him later on.
56:45
SPEAKER_01: But at this time, he got the hell out of there.
56:48
SPEAKER_01: He sent an apology, like, so sorry about my niece.
56:51
SPEAKER_01: She's a bit of a fool.
56:52
SPEAKER_01: I will admit that.
56:53
SPEAKER_01: Sorry about that.
56:54
SPEAKER_01: You also knew that she was underage, correct?
56:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh, good point.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, but the rest of the family, they were arrested and found guilty for whatever reason.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: I it's all treason.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Treason and previous labeled treason when it's a few.
57:08
SPEAKER_01: Treason gone.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: And uh they were all um, their sentence was life in prison.
57:14
SPEAKER_01: Didn't last very long.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: They were all like released at some point.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: But anyways, Henry was pretty mad at the Howards.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: And did not if you were a Howard at that time, first he's like, first Anne, and now Kevin.
57:25
SPEAKER_00: First Anne, now you These Howards are no good.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: And if you've ever read The Other Boleyn Girl, they actually identify themselves as Howard's women a lot.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: It's funny because you always think, like, oh, the Boleyns, it's such like a must be proud of a strong name, strong to be a Boleyn, like proud to be a Boleyn.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: But when you read the book, they're like, we are Howard's women.
57:41
SPEAKER_00: Like we're Howard girls, and you're like, oh yeah, like your mom's a Howard, so you identify with that.
57:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, Howard's and Boleyns don't have much luck.
57:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we had mentioned that there were four executions.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: A quad execution.
57:55
SPEAKER_01: Who do you think is the next one that gets executed for?
57:57
SPEAKER_01: So we had Culpepper, Darum, Catherine Howard, and then of course Lady Rochford.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: Lady Jane Rochford.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: That bitch, Jane Rochford.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: Which not too far.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: Jane Boleyn, Jane Parker, Jane Rochford.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: Jane Parker, Jane Boleyn, and then Lady Rochford.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: Um so they were executed together because, again, she was very much involved in all of this whole circus, and she was they interrogated her and she was found guilty for instig instigating all of it.
58:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so she was executed right after Catherine Howard on the same scaffold.
58:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, a two-for-one, once again.
58:33
SPEAKER_00: It was.
58:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think one thing that Lady Rogford tried to do before she died was she tried to claim insanity.
58:39
SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't know if that was an act or if she truly went insanity.
58:43
SPEAKER_01: I've read different books with different versions.
58:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: And I've read some, like the Philippa Gregory book Oh The Boleyn Inheritance.
58:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the Boleyn Inheritance.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
58:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, because it goes back and forth between Catherine Howard's perspective and Jane part oh god, Jane Boleyn's perspective, and they make it seem like she's actually crazy.
59:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
59:07
SPEAKER_01: And then I've I've um read other I think that was the Filippo Gregory one.
59:11
SPEAKER_01: I might be getting it mixed up with another one.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: I haven't read that one yet, but I'll let you know.
59:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay, maybe I'm getting it backwards, but then there was another one and I forget what it was at this point, but she was um she she was like, I'll just pretend like I'm crazy and they can't execute crazy women.
59:24
SPEAKER_01: But similar to how they just passed a new bill saying, like, this is how we get Catherine for treason.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: They passed a new bill that was like, we can kill insane women.
59:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they passed that right conveniently in that right before Jimmy.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: Disclose your sexual history within 21 days.
59:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, you must, what was the second part?
59:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh um, not like the adultery part of it.
59:46
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't even a commit adultery.
59:48
SPEAKER_00: You must not invite to be exactly make it seem like you're willing to.
59:52
SPEAKER_00: You can be insane to be executed.
59:54
SPEAKER_00: Like very specific recipe for these two women.
59:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, so so yeah, so sure enough, uh, they were like, you know, we don't care if you're crazy, you're still gonna be executed.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_00: But they did say about a month before her execution, she went bonkers, like completely nuts, just like scratching at the walls, scratching at the walls, pulling out her hair, well, whatever, cracking back and forth.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all that.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, was it an act?
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: Because at the time you couldn't execute crazy people, and she thought she could just like get stumped off to wherever, or was she actually a little crazy and all this went to her head?
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: I would love to dive into that a little bit deeper.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we could have done a whole episode on her.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: She's just as interesting of a person, but I don't particularly like her, so maybe not.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: But maybe she'll make an appearance for the future.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_00: Um so they were both thrown in an unmarked grave near the tower.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, actually, the same grave where Anna and George were buried.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is kind of a nice redeeming thing, as we like to do at the end of some of our executions.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, Queen Victoria later put a plaque on the tower that was like, hey, oh, isn't that sweet?
1:00:54
SPEAKER_00: That's a nice little plaque for all of the victims that were buried at the tower.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_00: So there, you know, I haven't seen it.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_00: Um One day we'll get there.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: We'll get there.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_00: We're starting a GoFundMe.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: You can send us off.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: GoFundMe, send us some money, take us to London.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, after COVID, of course.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was uh a whole thing that said, these are all the victims that are buried, you know, in this these are markeres.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: So it kind of pays tribute to them.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_00: One day we'll get there, we'll see it.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_00: Um and I thought it was interesting too because uh after the news of Catherine's execution went to France, um, Francis I, who was the king of France, wrote a letter to Henry regretting the whole thing and saying, Oh, how terrible that you had to deal with this.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_00: And his quote was lewd and naughty behavior of the Queen.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_00: Um he he referenced that and he said, You should he should be advised that the lightness of women cannot bend honor of men.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: Of all yeah, of all the things you say, you're like, oh, but don't worry.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, we're the ones that drive history, they're just the crazy capricious ones in the background.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is an asshole?
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: Stupid idiot.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so going on to our segment of the day, we decided because it's season two, we're gonna start a new segment, and we're calling it Ghost of the Gallows.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_00: Dun dun dun! Yeah, I don't know.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: I thought we wouldn't say that in this season, but we'll do it.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_00: Dun dun dun! We'll sing it.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, so this is gonna be kind of personal ghost stories related to our victim of the day, our executione of the day.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'll let Megan kick it off.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: So our ghost story today is extremely relevant, and it was actually one provided by a fan.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: One of like our best fans, who I'm so proud of.
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SPEAKER_01: She is actually a historian at Hampton Court Palace.
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SPEAKER_01: This is real life.
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SPEAKER_01: Real life, Stephanie, we love you.
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SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
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SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Steph.
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SPEAKER_01: So I reached out to her saying, okay, what's the deal with the haunted gallery?
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SPEAKER_01: Is it actually haunted?
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SPEAKER_01: The haunted gallery is the hallway that we referenced that Catherine Howard ran down screaming, trying to get Henry's attention because she didn't want to be arrested.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I I'm sure at the time it was just the gallery, but now in modern days is the haunted gallery.
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SPEAKER_01: They call it the haunted gallery at Hampton Court Palace.
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SPEAKER_01: So I said, okay, as an expert, someone who works there, do you think it's haunted?
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SPEAKER_01: What's the deal?
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SPEAKER_01: And her response, yes, I think it's haunted.
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SPEAKER_01: I love that it's just a absolutely it's haunted.
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SPEAKER_01: Why wouldn't it?
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SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's called the haunted gallery.
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SPEAKER_01: Uh so she did share a story, and I'm just gonna read it verbatim what she what she mess messaged me because every now and then I do look at my messages.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: She sent this five months ago.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm just kidding.
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SPEAKER_01: She said, I did the ghost tour last year where you have to go through the haunted gallery on your own and only candlelight.
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SPEAKER_01: Stop right there.
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SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
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SPEAKER_00: Would you do it?
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SPEAKER_00: Yes, a hundred percent.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, I more so would do it for the story.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, I'd be absolutely terrified to do it in real life and sit there with a candle.
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SPEAKER_00: But sweating.
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SPEAKER_00: I would do it just so I could say I did it.
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SPEAKER_00: Like afterwards, it'd be like, Yeah, you know, it's no big deal.
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SPEAKER_00: I took up one candle down the hall.
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SPEAKER_00: I walked, so I'm assuming, and I want to like really like how do we do this?
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SPEAKER_01: Well, we're gonna do it.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'm assuming you're by yourself.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm assuming it's dark.
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SPEAKER_01: To the other, like, can you finish the whole walk down the gallery just holding a candle?
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SPEAKER_01: Without going insane.
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SPEAKER_01: Ah.
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SPEAKER_01: She says, one of the wardens told me a story when I first visited.
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SPEAKER_01: She was standing in the haunted gallery, and another colleague was on the other side, 50 meters or so apart.
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SPEAKER_01: And she then suddenly felt like someone was pulling her ponytail.
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SPEAKER_01: And at first she thought it was just her colleague, but he was too far away.
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SPEAKER_01: So confirmed.
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SPEAKER_01: Pretty confirmed, I feel like, but that's just one personal story.
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SPEAKER_01: But, anyways, I would do anything to see this gallery.
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SPEAKER_01: And so they say Catherine Howard haunts this gallery, she runs down it, you can hear someone like screaming like you can hear him.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you'll be standing there and feel like someone just ran past you.
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SPEAKER_01: Or be clawing at your clothes.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, so I think that's really cool.
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SPEAKER_00: That is cool.
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SPEAKER_00: And I I personally don't have ghost stories to share.
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SPEAKER_00: Megan's the one that, like, I feel like throughout your history in different hotels and things, you felt certain presences.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not like I I'm gravitated towards it.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, actually, when we were just in Colorado, like the highlight of the trip was we went to the Stanley Hotel in Estes Park.
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SPEAKER_01: That was very cool.
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SPEAKER_01: In Stanley Park, I'm wearing my tourist shirt right now.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Uh Stanley Hotel.
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SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
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SPEAKER_01: Stanley Hotel is the hotel that Stephen King stayed in that inspired The Shining.
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SPEAKER_01: And he wrote The Shining because of this hotel, because it's so haunted.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: We went there.
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SPEAKER_00: The movie wasn't filmed there.
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SPEAKER_00: There was like a mini-series, an ABC mini-series that came out later that was filmed there.
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SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's the whole inspiration behind The Shining is this hotel.
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SPEAKER_00: And we talked to a clean well, Megan talked to a cleaning lady.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, because I will find anyone and talk to them.
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SPEAKER_00: She was like, So tell me, is it haunted?
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SPEAKER_00: And the lady showed her a video of this drawer mysteriously opening and not closing.
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SPEAKER_00: That was real.
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SPEAKER_00: I didn't see, but You should have seen it.
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SPEAKER_00: And I was like, alright.
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SPEAKER_00: She's like, she's like, she's like, Elizabeth.
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SPEAKER_00: I was sitting there and I looked at this video and she's right.
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SPEAKER_00: She opened the drawer or she closed the drawer and it kept opening.
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SPEAKER_00: And then she closed it again and it opened it.
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SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like a drawer on tracks.
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SPEAKER_01: It was a heavy dresser drawer.
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SPEAKER_01: I get it, but I was just like, oh whatever.
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SPEAKER_01: I believe in it.
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SPEAKER_00: I wish I had more stories.
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SPEAKER_00: I really don't of a ghost.
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SPEAKER_00: Like I've I feel eerie in certain places, but I've never felt a ghostly presence or seen anything or heard anything.
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SPEAKER_00: Like nothing like that's happened.
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SPEAKER_00: But I've never been to London, so maybe we've got to change it.
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SPEAKER_01: I think we need to go to London.
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SPEAKER_01: We'll get some more experiences.
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SPEAKER_01: But maybe we'll get some more ghostly stories of our executiones throughout the season.
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SPEAKER_01: I think so.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And Halloween's around the corner.
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SPEAKER_00: It's October, you know, perfect time to discuss.
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SPEAKER_01: Uh so share with us if you have any ghostly stories.
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SPEAKER_01: If anyone else has been to the haunted gallery in Hampton Court Palace, we want to hear from you.
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SPEAKER_01: We want to hear your experiences.
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SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
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SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, lover, hater, that's Catherine Howard.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Some say basic bitch, others say, you know, just a young girl trying to have fun.
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SPEAKER_00: Girls just want to have fun.
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SPEAKER_01: Girls just want to have fun.
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SPEAKER_01: Any any last words?
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SPEAKER_01: Not today.