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What I've Learnt - Shelley Reys AO · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: When Shelley Rees was a little girl, she watched her father win the race that stops a nation.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Frank Reese became the only Aboriginal jockey to win the Melbourne Cup in 1973.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: One of 14 children, he was born to a Filipino father and a mother of Aboriginal descent.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Something he never denied, but the newspaper front pages that day, after his win, omitted his indigenous heritage.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Shelley says he was always in my mind one of those role models who helped me feel as though I could do anything, regardless of what odds were against me, because he certainly achieved a lot with all the odds against him.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: When you put the term Aboriginal or Indigenous, First Nations or Reconciliation, any of those words on top of something, Australians start to get a bit nervous, says Shelley.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're afraid of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing, making a mistake or sounding racist.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: They just start to walk on eggshells.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: The way that I describe my work is I remove the eggshells.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: So Reconciliation Week marks an important milestone in our Australian history.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a time for all Australians to learn about our shared histories, cultures and achievements and to explore how each of us can contribute to achieving reconciliation in Australia.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: This week, two significant milestones in the reconciliation journey are remembered: the successful 1967 referendum and the High Court Marbot decision, respectively.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Reconciliation must live in the hearts, minds, and actions of all Australians as we move forward, creating a nation strengthened by respectful relationships between the wider Australian community and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: The Australian Financial Review named Shelley in their Hundred Women of Influence, and she was also awarded the Order of Australia for distinguished service to the Indigenous community to reconciliation and social inclusion.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And as an advocate for improved educational health and employment opportunities for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: While she works with all sectors of the community, Shelley is best known for her work with corporate Australia in helping them achieve their inclusivity goals.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Today she counts Microsoft, Qantas and Telstra as clients.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: She's known for her work with the National Apology to the Stolen Generations and the broader national reconciliation movement, both of which she played an important role.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: She is managing director of a successful private consulting firm, Arilla, which works collaboratively with the government, private, and community sectors to enable mutual change and sound partnerships.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we are thrilled to have Shelly join us on the What I've Learned podcast in this very important week, which really talks about healing, reconciliation, and a hope for the future.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome Shelley.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Deb.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Nice to be with you.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Nice to chat.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: What brought you to be involved at a community level?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: What inspired you?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I will talk about your father, we'll reflect on his influence on you, but just separate to that, what was it that actually drove you to become involved at a community level as opposed to an individual level?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a commercial decision to begin with.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So my cousin Darren O'Young had started a company called Arilla, and he was establishing it in Sydney.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: He asked me to move from Melbourne to Sydney to join him to help establish it in Sydney.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And one of our first consulting projects was to work with the Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And at the time it seemed like a fairly small project of community outreach and community building, but it turned out to be something quite much more significant than that, and I would never have realized that at the time.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: But it was during a Keating government, and it was when the term reconciliation had been introduced to Australia for the first time.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: And my role along with my cousins was to build a people's movement for reconciliation.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And what that meant was is to have inspire community discussions and meetings around the state of New South Wales specifically about the concept of reconciliation with Indigenous and non-Indigenous people and help to determine what it meant, what it didn't mean, and what it would take to build a reconciled nation between us.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so those community meetings happened strong, hard, fast for 10 years, in fact.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And my cousin, unfortunately, passed away not long after we started that project.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: I started working with another couple, John and I in Telford, two non-Indigenous people who worked beside me, but the work remained the same, and that was to build a people's movement.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: There were other people working just like us, we had counterparts in other states and territories also designed to build a people's movement in their respective states and territories.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: The notion being that by the end of 10 years, which was the formal life of the Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation, that we would have come a little bit closer to becoming a reconciled nation, that we would understand and learn and clarify to a greater extent what reconciliation meant and how we might achieve it.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: The end of the council's term to signify the end of the 10 years and what we had learnt, what we'd clarified and where we had come.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: We staged the walk for reconciliation across the Sydney Harbour Bridge and other bridges around states and territories to signify how far we had come in terms of what we had learnt about each other, our relationship, and um and the and the very material things that would make up a reconciled nation.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: The one in Sydney, for example, um uh attracted nearly one million people, and uh it's said it's said to be, it was at the time said to have been the largest collection of Australia's leaders in one place since Federation in 1901.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it was really groundbreaking stuff, and that, as I said, symbolised the end of the council's work, and that's when Reconciliation Australia began.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I recall very clearly how pivotal that was, and I remember when all of this started bubbling away.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was at university and I remember um, you know, there were initially there was cynicism and there was, you know, it was quite challenging to put it on the public agenda.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that you were pushing it uphill in terms of trying to be make it seem as something that was much more inverted, commas mainstream than not something just that was a radical sort of sidebar to Australia's story.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was what I perceived was the challenge was to get it into sort of the mainstream media, the mainstream communities, the that so that people realize it was it's all one and the same.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, and that's often the challenge of any generation, um, which you were clearly at the cutting edge of, um, is to try and get people to hear and listen to the facts.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that bridge walk was a pretty powerful um and pivotal time.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've come even a longer way since then because now it's seen as a very powerful part of the national agenda.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it would seem as as if most generations since then have started to embrace it as a very real struggle and one that needs to be embraced.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Would that would that be correct?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I hope so.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a lot of data for me to fall back on, but my sense is that the temperature of the nation is one that says we're open to a conversation about reconciling, and there are some quarters of um and some sectors within Australia who are very advanced on that conversation and that work.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yet there are still others that have never heard of this thing called reconciliation.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I have my you know, my usual taxi driver test that gives you a really good temperature on the world and and the nation as most people see them.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I still come across people who really don't know, have never heard of this thing called reconciliation.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so look, I think there's there's poles apart, we've got we've got some that are still unaware, and we've got some that are doing some really incredible, complex, steep work, and everything in between.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that there'll always be a different appetite for different people, different organisations, and different sectors of the community.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think for me, success will be well, one part of the success will be that everyone is cognizant that they have a role to play and they're playing it, yeah, whatever role that might be.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, as you were saying, that I like the taxi test, which is is quite um a grassroots little test that you've invented, which which I think is quite relevant because, as you say, it's like half of the community has completely embraced and is educated about reconciliation week, whereas the other half are like, what are you talking about?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we change that conversation?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do we make it more accessible?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's another big part of it.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you read Marbo, and I mean, some of us are very aware of the Marbo story, but as you say, some of it's a little esoteric for people and they haven't got access to that information.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, I think that there's you can't have one single COM strategy, it's going to take a whole lot of different things to reach all 23 million of us, or however many there are these days.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh, while some things work for some people, some different things work for other people in terms of engaging them, sparking their interest, you know, engaging their curiosity, uh, and so on.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: And as I said, there's there's a whole um there's there's a whole range of people and their interest and enthusiasm and also their action.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some people, you know, sort of swim at the edges of support and um uh whereas there's other people that have these very deep commitments and and uh actively involved.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So um so there's a there's a place for everybody, and everybody is welcome to make whatever impact and engage in it however they like.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I would like to see um I would like to see the Australian workforce um really embrace reconciliation in ways that are truly strategic.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing that Reconciliation Australia designed was um reconciliation action plans or RAPs as they're better known.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's 1,100 of them minimum at the moment in circulation.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's more being developed as we speak.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And these are strategic documents that give people a very clear outline of, well, they develop it themselves actually, um, a clear outline of what they're going to do, how they're going to do it, who's going to be responsible.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: They are audited and reviewed by Reconciliation Australia.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a way of putting a chorale around one's commitment in order to make reconciliation more than just a word, but instead making it a reality.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that indeed is the theme for National Reconciliation Week this week: reconciliation more than a word.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's about how do we change it from being just a concept, if you like, into something that's truly meaningful and practical, where it really hits the ground and it really changes the relationship between us and it changes the life circumstances of Aboriginal and Trusted Islander people.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that you've worked on quite a lot yourself.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm interested too, because I was reading about your father and how he was an inspiration to you.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me a little bit about that?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously, quite an extraordinary story.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when I was looking into your can you just give us a little insight into that?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because that is one of the drivers for you, isn't it?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it definitely informs your choices, it would appear.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've been really lucky to have two people in my life, my mother and my father, who've given me um a great foundation for doing what I do, um, always giving me confidence and um and and also um the strength to plough through really difficult times and difficult topics.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And trust me, if you decide to work in the Aboriginal and Torres Delonga space or the reconciliation space, it does get tough and it gets tough often.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a real resilience, I think, that I have, and I and I credit both of them for that.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my father, um, most notably to most people, was um an Aboriginal man.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: He also had a Filipino heritage, and he uh was a jockey who established his career in Melbourne, which is where I was born.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: By the time he had been chasing his racing career, they were well established in Melbourne, and so that's where I was born and bred.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And my father was essentially, I thought, like anybody else's father, the naive little girl that I was thought that everybody's dad rode a horse, and uh I thought that everybody had um a pony, and why didn't everybody else have pony rides at their birthday parties?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So incredibly naive.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, of course, it's not until you get older that you look back and you realise how incredibly lucky you were to have access to horses and and uh privileges like that.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I did realise that he was very different when he won the Melbourne Cup, and uh because I noticed all of the uh all of the attention.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm not gonna it was a little bit more than just a point.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Look, by the time I was born, he had been a professional jockey for 20 years.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: I came around fairly late in my parents' lives, and so he was a well-established jockey by that time.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: But um, of course, winning the Melbourne Cup is always your a jockey's dream and major aspiration, and that's certainly where he got to in his career.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: He was undoubtedly very successful prior to that, had won lots of major races, etc.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, that's always the dream for a jockey Melbourne Cup.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, that's when I realized as a six-year-old, that's how old I was at the time when he won the cup, that he was very different to other people's dads.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: But what it also did for me as a very young girl is helped me see what's possible with hard work, with tenacity, um, with respect, with honesty, all of the values that he had that he showed to me and I learned from him.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as did my mother, she espoused all of those virtues too, and those values too.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that I have been very lucky, not just for owning a pony when I was a little girl and many of them, but also for having some pretty amazing um role models in my life.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you talk about tenacity and resilience.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um when you speak about dealing with issues in the indigenous space and the challenges, are you talking about other than the obvious?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm assuming that you're uh you know constantly confronted with a lot of difficult stories and people who you see trapped in a system, unable to find or carve their own journey.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Is is that what you're referring to?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Can you elaborate a little bit more on what do you find some of the greatest challenges in your role?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh look, I wouldn't know where to begin.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you decide, there's many people, I'm sure, that are listening to this podcast that have chosen um a career or a life that's affected by some sort of um social challenge.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are uh exceptionally large lists of social challenges for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and but that is what drives me too.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you look at uh every sector across Australia, health, housing, law, justice, employment, education, you will find that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people stand at the lowest point of advantage and are highly challenged in all of those areas.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: We have a long way to go to help arrive at a position of equity and equality for First Nations peoples.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so with that comes um a lot of stories, a lot of hardship, a lot of grief and pain from those who were victims of the stolen generation and their families.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and on the on the list goes, on the story goes.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I've been very privileged though, having said that, to be party to those stories for many First Nations people to be willing to sit with me and share their stories with me, whether that be in a formal or informal sense.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've always felt very grateful and very privileged to be in a situation where they trust me with their stories and they um in a real spirit of generosity share their stories with me.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, your story is pretty interesting, which is why I love having you on the podcast, because in effect, you've carved quite a unique pathway through.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're a woman, you have indigenous heritage, you are at a very um you know high point in your career, and certainly there are many people who can't even come close to partner at somewhere like KPMG, but you've also got the wonderful Arilla background.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me how you how you navigated that, because that that story interests me because I I I mean to get to that point must have taken a lot of tenacity.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, absolutely.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can't honestly say that I'm an ambitious person, and that's probably going to surprise you and others, um, because I do acknowledge that I have made some considerable achievements in my career, but it's not through ambition.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've never had this idea in my head, this is what I'd want to do, this is what I want to be when I grow up, this is the kind of things that I would like to be doing, the places I would like to travel to.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's never ever been part of my story.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: My story has always been about impact, the kind of impact that I wanted to have.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what does that impact look like?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And what does the footprint for that impact look like?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so the decisions that I have made have not been about growing the business and creating a stronger career path.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's been about creating a stronger impact.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um and, you know, start soon after my cousin passed away and I carried on with the business.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I only knew two other people who were Aboriginal who had their own business.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know exactly how many there were in Australia, but I only knew of two, and I decided to share uh an office space with one of them.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we supported each other, and I found it incredibly difficult.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, people generally just didn't take you seriously, um, and also were questioning the value of having a business like the one you've decided to create.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, thankfully, you know, I'm now in a situation where people do understand the value by and large, um, so much so that um I sold minority shares in my business to KPMG five years ago.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: The reason I did that was again about creating impact and footprint.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: I did it to be able to access skills that I didn't have and wouldn't otherwise have access to and to broaden the footprint.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh all of these decisions have been uh squarely on the back of how can I reach more people, how can I close the gap between First Nations Australians and others?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what role can I play in my sphere of influence and within my footprint of power to create that change.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I spent my whole career actually talking to others to help them find their path, find clarity in how they can affect change and help them realize that that change.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's interesting because you have certainly found a way to navigate a pretty complex arena, and we all know the corporate world can be pretty cutthroat.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh do you think part of it is also, well, clearly, relationships played a huge part, and you clearly um value those from what you've outlined, that they were critical to you making that leap from one to the other?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and also it would seem that there's some timeliness too, that maybe the point at which you were ready to cross that bridge using the um that that there was a sense that people were maybe ready.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And because I would say, and I'm just at a guess, 90% of those partners would have been men, would that be right when you first are male uh by and large male, by and large over 60, by and large.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: White.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: But look, that's not an unusual situation for me.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And anyone, any Aboriginal person that's working, whether that be in a corporate life or a community life, it makes no difference.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Most of us in putting a foot in both camps and working within a foreign environment nine times out of ten.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And in my view, I've had to make that work.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I see other people around me do that every day.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's not always easy.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's sometimes it's it's quite difficult, but by and large, you have to make it work.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you don't create the impact that you hope to make.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a bit like women.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the same.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: I relate very much to what you're saying in that, while I don't have indigenous heritage, I have as a female, it's a similar concept where you have to hold your own, adapt, morph, and not define those decisions or those relationships by that measure.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to somehow find that.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I hear that you it's something that you've learned to master in order to form those relationships.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And in a sense, the more people that we embed, which is what you've done, in the corporate world with a diversity, the more we're going to get resonance and relationships because people will listen in a in a when you're in an intimate role with them.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's true?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I think Australia and the Australian workforce are really terrific in understanding that diverse workforces are inclusive, truly inclusive workforces.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the benefits to having a truly inclusive workforce is that you bring divergence thinking, you bring innovation to you therefore bring different decisions and have different conversations that lead to those different decisions.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's lots of value of having a creative workforce that's often built around having a diverse workforce.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so having average non-touristed island of people in the workforce adds to that diversity, adds to that divergent thinking, and so on.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: It brings another element.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, by and large, I think that people of colour and difference are still often working in environments that are foreign to them, and um, and you need to navigate your way through that.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly know that most First Nations people, many First Nations people that I speak to, um uh come across some sort of a challenge around that almost every week.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but like I said, uh you roll with the punches, you get used to it, and you move on.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's some people and some workforces who are really um right up for that kind of um an engagement.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's some organizations and some tiers or levels of organizations that aren't quite ready for that.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so what they need is a guiding hand and a different kind of a conversation, and they need to be shown what the benefits are, both to the business and to themselves, I think, of really profiting from a diverse workforce.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that I play some part in doing that.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it would seem that you are very much playing a part.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I really you're demonstrating by example what can be achieved and what can what you can do.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is it some what have you learnt being at KPMG, which is a pretty um, you know, it's a very big corporation.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: What what have you learnt from them?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: So being compared to when you were at Arilla on your own and trying to run at the you know, much more coal phase, how have you found being at KPMG and what have what have you learnt on that journey?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I have learnt to work with multiple groups of people.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think that's been the major difference.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have different clients, I don't have different kinds of clients, and I've always been very fortunate to have blue ribbon clients in um Microsoft, Google, Facebook, um, um Lend Lease, so on and so forth.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: KPMG were even my client before I sold some shares in my business to them and became a partner.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh I already uh I already felt as though I had a good hand on engagement at that level.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: But what I have learned is how to work in a really um within broad teams and with multitudes of people.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I've come from a very small outfit to having access to you know thousands of people.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um having said that though, uh the business Arilla, um now a joint venture between myself and KPMG in the last five years, uh, is um still a small business.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: I still treat it like a small business, and so does KPMG.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: We have five staff.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um well we actually have two at the moment, where we're um me included, it's three, and we're we're advertising for two at the moment.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so we are a small team within a really big group of people um and lots of arms and legs.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's unusual.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's unusual, it's quite complex actually.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have no doubt that it is complex.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And also, look, I think it's an interesting model though, because I think it's a way to uh incorporate those elements into a big infrastructure.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And as long as you're heard and as long as you have a presence, which it sounds very much like you do, then it serves its purpose.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, it because it's such a big business, um you have different kinds of impact in different areas.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but look, it seems to be yes, it is very complex, but I think it's a very important one.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And there's many businesses, Australian businesses uh uh around the country that have realized that one, this this topic of um reconciliation and working with First Nations peoples is the leadership skill to have.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: The Business Council of Australia, so much so, have made it one of their focus areas and um see the benefit as well as the possible potential impact that businesses could have on the gap that exists between us.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um and I and I think that uh those businesses that are able to see the business case really clearly are the ones that are ultimately very successful at dancing in this space.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I work with many of those to help them do that, and it's a privilege to do that for their CEOs, boards, executives, and the broader workforce.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we develop terrific tight relationships with all of our clients.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I don't call them clients, we call them the Arilla family, and uh, because that's how we feel about them, that's how they feel too, being part of a family of people who come together who have made a commitment to really have an impact.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in some cases, some of these leaders within these organizations choose to become a voice for First Nations people who don't have one.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's a terrific story of leadership across the country with some amazing leaders, particularly in the corporate sector, and uh and as I said, I feel very privileged to be working with many of them.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a wonderful journey that you have actually carved for yourself, but also as you're outlining, you're embracing other corporate sectors and other corporate leaders and in a way showing them the path.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And once again, it boils down to relationships.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that eventually it will be the changes that will be implemented will be not dissimilar to the sustainability, if you like, uh journey that is now part of most corporates?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a given that you have to have a sustainability strategy, that you have to reflect our world and our community.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see any alignment with that, even though they're different themes, it's not a dissimilar notion of just making it well, it's just part of who we are.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see that happen?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think that would be great if that happened.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not seeing that happen at the moment.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, instead, I'm seeing it as I think even the organizations that dance in this space regularly and do some fantastic work are still yet to work out how to make it business as usual.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Lentleys, for example, I think have an outstanding reconciliation action plan and have been doing outstanding work.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they have been the first organization to move their actions within their reconciliation action plan into the body of the organisation, making everyone responsible for delivering on these actions instead of the reconciliation action plan itself.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that they've taken the bold move of saying this this should all now be business as usual and be a part of who we are and what we do on a day-to-day basis.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is still in its testing ground, it's they're still taking their baby steps at the moment, but uh I I place lots of credit to them, and it will be really interesting to see how this goes because ultimately that's what you want to see, that it becomes everyone's everyday.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: So logistically, I'm just trying to understand, just on a very practical level, what does that mean?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like on a day-to-day level, making it business as usual, like the Lendlease example, what does that logistically mean?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, their reconciliation action plan, for example, might have had some employment targets within it, saying that we aim to employ X number of First Nations people within the next three years in these particular business areas.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's now been removed from the Reconciliation Action Plan and given to the recruitment team who do recruitment on a day-to-day basis.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's become their business as usual to include Indigenous Australians in the net of talent instead of it being a separate initiative sitting over here.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Another example might be procurement, you know, Indigenous procurement from to procuring from Indigenous businesses might have been part of one's reconciliation action plan.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: By putting it into business as usual, you're giving it to the procurement team.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And again, they're simply including Indigenous businesses in the mix that they consider to provide services to the business, and so on and so forth.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's a really important move that um it becomes the everyday and not the special eventually.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense, and let's hope that that's the future up ahead.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like you're making great inroads, and um, I have great respect for what you're doing, and I think at the end of the day, it does take courage, and as you say, it's pretty challenging at times, but it sounds as if you're carving a pretty important pathway for others and mentoring clearly both future leaders and existing corporates so that they have an understanding.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd like to thank you so much for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's fascinating what you're doing, and I think you're a great role model for um many women, but many Indigenous women as well.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And let's hope that the future is looking brighter for all of those that wish to have choices because I think that's what this is about.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Deb.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's been lovely to talk to you and happy National Reconciliation Week to you.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Same to you.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great day.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Love dear.