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Into the Weeds Podcast -Athena Hogan The Harvey Templeton Trial · Military Broadcast Radio | MBR Talk

• 0:21
  Hello, everybody, and welcome to Into the Weeds podcast here on
• 0:24
  Military Broadcast Radio. I'm Amber and I have Nancy from
• 0:28
  the Toll podcast joining me. Thank you, Nancy.
• 0:31
  Hello thanks for having me, always a fun time.
• 0:34
  Yeah, thank you for joining me. I, I definitely get more
• 0:40
  nervous, I guess when I'm by myself.
• 0:43
  I don't know if it's nervous, just kind of in a funk.
• 0:46
  I don't know. Nope.
• 0:48
  For real. Yeah, you got to have somebody
• 0:49
  to play with for sure. So thank you for coming and
• 0:52
  playing. Always happy to.
• 0:54
  Hey, Sophia, it's good to see you.
• 0:57
  Thank you for joining us. And so last week I was gone
• 1:02
  because I went to my aunt and uncle's 50th wedding
• 1:05
  anniversary. And man, I tell you what, it's
• 1:11
  it's really great to see two people you know and love have an
• 1:16
  actual good relationship. 50 years. 50 years, yeah.
• 1:22
  And so we all gathered out in the country and we had great
• 1:27
  music. Samantha Rose and Kate Roth
• 1:30
  played, and it was just really a really great time.
• 1:35
  And I got to see a lot of my little cousins that I hadn't
• 1:37
  seen since they were really small.
• 1:40
  So just catching up and all of that is it's a great thing when
• 1:45
  it's for a good cause instead of a funeral.
• 1:49
  Oh, but yeah, right. That's usually when you all
• 1:52
  gather back. See.
• 1:53
  All the yeah, 'cause that's usually when I'm seeing my
• 1:56
  family. Is that is that a funeral or
• 1:57
  something? Yeah, that's that's a real story
• 2:00
  right there. Yeah, honestly, So I don't know
• 2:05
  if I told everybody, but Laura's at a wedding.
• 2:07
  So that's where she's at. And hopefully she's having a
• 2:11
  good time. And it looks like Joy's in here.
• 2:14
  Good to see you, Joy. Hi, Joy.
• 2:16
  And so we are going back over, well, not back over.
• 2:20
  We are going into Part 1 of the actual trial against Harvey
• 2:27
  Templeton for the murder of Athena Hogan.
• 2:30
  Before we were doing the preliminary hearing.
• 2:33
  This is the actual trial and it starts on the July 13th, 1987.
• 2:40
  And so that's what we're going to be getting into.
• 2:44
  But remember that beforehand we did hear from Robert Taylor.
• 2:49
  We did not hear from Harvey Templeton.
• 2:52
  And as I'm looking through all of the testimony from the actual
• 2:57
  trial, I am not seeing Harvey Templeton's testimony there
• 3:02
  either. So I'm wondering if we're ever
• 3:06
  going to see Harvey Templeton's testimony or not.
• 3:11
  It remains to be seen. I'll try and figure that out.
• 3:16
  Discover as we go, huh? Yeah, basically Templeton the
• 3:20
  rat. Yeah.
• 3:22
  I mean, he looks pretty good for it.
• 3:25
  Definitely with him taking the trash out that night and going
• 3:31
  all the way to 11th and Gore, which is quite a far way out of
• 3:38
  his way to drop off some trash just so the dogs wouldn't get
• 3:42
  into it. So hopefully we'll get into more
• 3:45
  of that information, see if they actually went and found that
• 3:49
  trash. Yeah, so hopefully they were
• 3:54
  able to, but Harvey was also a trash man himself, so yes, he's
• 4:02
  very SUS. OK, we're going to get into it.
• 4:07
  So I'm going to go to the beginning here and just show you
• 4:12
  guys in the District Court in and for Comanche County, State
• 4:16
  of Oklahoma, the state of Oklahoma plaintiff versus Harvey
• 4:20
  Lee Templeton, defendant. And so these are going to be the
• 4:23
  witnesses, and we've got four, I think 4 packets of testimony.
• 4:33
  So we're going to be here a while.
• 4:39
  He's definitely trash. Yeah, he's definitely suspicious
• 4:42
  as heck. OK, so we've got Richard Briley,
• 4:46
  Cecil Davidson, Richard Goss, Donald E Belcher, Gregory Lord,
• 4:51
  Larry Jacobsma, Jack Parton, Andy Ferguson, and Pamela Condon
• 4:57
  and Donald Belcher. So we're just going to get into
• 5:02
  it and thank you guys for being here.
• 5:05
  I know this is a lot of words and it's kind of boring, but I
• 5:10
  love history and this being so close to me and in my hometown
• 5:17
  and being connected to it in three ways.
• 5:19
  I I'm definitely more interested in it now than I ever have been
• 5:23
  before, so I'm just going to start reading.
• 5:28
  It says transcriptive test testimony.
• 5:31
  Be it remembered that on the 13th day of July, 1987, at the
• 5:35
  hour of 9:00 AM, the above styled and numbered cause came
• 5:39
  for the trial before the Honorable Jack Brock, Judge of
• 5:43
  District Court of Comanche County, State of Oklahoma and a
• 5:46
  jury pursuant to regular assignment and the State of
• 5:50
  Oklahoma. Being represented by Comanche
• 5:53
  County Assistant District Attorney Roy Calvert, and the
• 5:56
  defendant being present in person and being represented by
• 6:00
  Max Cook, 411 SW 6th St., Lawton, OK and Jerry CQ, D8O2,
• 6:06
  SW D Ave., Lawton, OK and John P Zelps, 16 O 9 W Gore Blvd.,
• 6:12
  Lawton, OK and both sides having announced ready, the following
• 6:17
  proceedings were had and testimony introduced, to wit,
• 6:23
  reporters note. Before commencement of trial,
• 6:25
  motions were heard in chambers with all attorneys being present
• 6:29
  and said proceedings being reported by this reporter,
• 6:33
  following which court convened in the courtroom with all
• 6:35
  parties present, whereupon a jury was impaneled and sworn.
• 6:40
  The court read instructions 1/2 and three to the jury and the
• 6:44
  court recessed until 9:00 AM on July 14th, 1987.
• 6:49
  The court members of the jury before opening statements.
• 6:52
  The court takes judicial knowledge that Oklahoma observes
• 6:56
  daylight savings time means that you accept that as a fact.
• 7:01
  The parties have stipulated that according to official Naval
• 7:05
  Naval Observatory records that the sunset, that the sunset on
• 7:11
  October 1st, 1986 was at 7:18 PM.
• 7:15
  Is it so stipulated, Mr. Zelps? Yes, Your Honor.
• 7:19
  Mr. Calvert. Yes, Your Honor.
• 7:21
  The court. Mr. Calvert, you open?
• 7:24
  You may open for the State. Reporters note.
• 7:27
  Thereupon opening statements were made by Mr. Calvert upon
• 7:31
  behalf of the State and by Mr. Cude on behalf of the defendant,
• 7:36
  and the State produced as its first witness Robert Taylor,
• 7:40
  followed by Robert Bradley. Thereupon the State produced the
• 7:44
  following witnesses. OK, you know what?
• 7:46
  So we need to go to Robert Taylor's.
• 7:49
  I thought I read that already. OK, hold on.
• 7:53
  Let's go to Robert Taylor's testimony.
• 7:58
  And it says down in the Google Drive, it says Robert Taylor and
• 8:02
  it's the last file, Nancy. Witness Robert Taylor.
• 8:13
  Yep. OK. 7/14/87 OK, so this is going
• 8:20
  to be more interesting because this is the guy that found her
• 8:24
  SO and this is also the guy that was a family friend of ours.
• 8:27
  His brother was dating my cousin at that time.
• 8:32
  His brother and your cousin, OK. Yeah, or they had just broken up
• 8:36
  something. It, it was, Yeah.
• 8:38
  He had been a his brother had been at our house with that car
• 8:44
  recently and and I was seven years old.
• 8:47
  So, and this is basically the same thing that it said earlier
• 8:51
  about all of the 13th. Day of July, yeah.
• 8:57
  Yeah, and where they were located, where their Law Offices
• 9:00
  were located and everything. So the court, members of the
• 9:05
  jury, before opening statements, the court takes judicial
• 9:08
  knowledge that Oklahoma observes daylight savings time.
• 9:11
  OK, we read that. So, Mr. Calvert, you may open
• 9:17
  for the state. Reporters note.
• 9:18
  Thereupon opening statements were made by Mr. Calvert on
• 9:22
  behalf of the state and by Mr. Cude on behalf of the defendant,
• 9:26
  the court. Mr. Calvert, you may call your
• 9:28
  first witness for the state. Mr. Calvert, the state would
• 9:32
  call Robert Taylor, Your Honor. Thereupon the State produced the
• 9:36
  following testimony in chief, to wit, who, being first duly
• 9:40
  sworn, testified as follows, to wit, direct examination by Mr.
• 9:47
  Calvert. State your name, Sir.
• 9:50
  Robert Taylor. Mr. Taylor.
• 9:52
  I'm going to stand back over here so that I want you to speak
• 9:56
  up so I can hear you and then everybody, I believe, and the
• 9:59
  jury can hear you. What's your address, Sir?
• 10:03
  7929 Terrace Hills. How long have you lived at that
• 10:07
  address? About two years. 2 1/2 years.
• 10:11
  Let's go back to October 1st, 1986.
• 10:14
  Did you live there on that date? Yes, I did.
• 10:18
  All right, Sir. You were driving down Rogers
• 10:20
  Lane that evening? Yes.
• 10:23
  Let's back up a couple of hours that afternoon.
• 10:26
  Do you recall what you did? Yes.
• 10:29
  Are you a student at Cameron? Yes.
• 10:32
  Were you a student at that time? Yes.
• 10:36
  What subjects were you studying out there?
• 10:39
  Data processing, mostly. Were you also a psychology
• 10:43
  student? I wasn't enrolled in any classes
• 10:46
  at that time, but I had completed my psychology
• 10:49
  requirements. All right, Sir, what did you do
• 10:53
  that afternoon? I left the school at about 3255,
• 10:58
  something like that. I went to 1716, Cash Road to
• 11:01
  Lawton Collection Agency. All right, Sir, were you
• 11:05
  employed at this time? No, I wasn't.
• 11:09
  Were you working part time? I was doing some freelance work
• 11:13
  for Lawton Collection Agency. That's they would give you hot
• 11:17
  checks people had written and you'd go to try to collect them.
• 11:20
  Is that basically what we're talking about?
• 11:24
  Man? Times have changed, haven't
• 11:25
  they, Nancy? Haven't.
• 11:26
  They we're going to, I remember, get your money.
• 11:32
  I remember this. I remember collections, people
• 11:35
  coming to the door instead of calling.
• 11:40
  OK, well, I was. I really wasn't working for the
• 11:45
  man. I had known him for about a day.
• 11:48
  That's interesting. And he knew some things about
• 11:51
  the letter of the law that I wanted to learn about collecting
• 11:53
  checks. I had been collecting
• 11:55
  outstanding debts for ARA collections or ARA equipment
• 12:00
  rentals, and I didn't know about the letter of the law.
• 12:04
  So you had been collecting checks.
• 12:06
  What do you mean when you say letter of the law?
• 12:09
  For instance, there's a law that says you can't bother anyone
• 12:13
  about an outstanding debt after 9 in the evening, and I didn't
• 12:18
  know that. Oh, I didn't know that.
• 12:21
  Someone pointed that out to me, just out of curiosity.
• 12:24
  I hadn't violated that, but I figured if that was true, I
• 12:28
  ought to find out what the law was, Joyce said they still will.
• 12:34
  Yeah, I'm sure there's some later on that day.
• 12:39
  Oh, wait. Did you attempt to visit some
• 12:41
  people and talk about bad checks that night or that evening Later
• 12:45
  on that day? I did.
• 12:46
  About what time were you driving down Rogers Lane?
• 12:50
  We're talking about 80 2nd St. and Rogers Lane out in the
• 12:53
  northwest edge of town. Yes.
• 12:56
  About what time were you out there?
• 12:58
  About 5:00 till 9. All right, Sir, why were you
• 13:03
  going out there? I went out there to watch some
• 13:06
  flares on Fort Sill, sit there and listen to some music.
• 13:10
  So that's something that people do even nowadays, you know, just
• 13:15
  sit out on their front porch or out on some property and watch
• 13:20
  the flares and everything that Fort Sill does, because it's,
• 13:25
  it's an artillery base. So there's constantly stuff in
• 13:28
  the air. And when they're out at night,
• 13:32
  you know, they'll send flares up, you know, so they can see
• 13:35
  and everything. So there's just constantly stuff
• 13:38
  going on there. So that's that's what happens
• 13:42
  when you're bored and there's nothing to do.
• 13:45
  Nothing to do in Oklahoma, Yeah. Because my cousins and I, they
• 13:49
  lived out by the lake, Lake Latonka, and the base was so
• 13:56
  close that you could see everything.
• 13:58
  And so we would just lay out there and just watch it all the
• 14:01
  time. So it.
• 14:03
  Was cheap entertainment right for you?
• 14:05
  Yeah, it was better than doing drugs or drinking.
• 14:07
  That's. Right.
• 14:10
  We may have been doing a little bit of both, but at at some
• 14:14
  points. But anyways, OK, so he says,
• 14:19
  about what time were you out there?
• 14:20
  About 5:00 till 9. All right, Sir, why were you
• 14:23
  going out there? I went out there to watch some
• 14:24
  flares on Fort Sill. Sit there and listen to some
• 14:26
  music. OK.
• 14:28
  You had a couple of beers in the car.
• 14:30
  I had one beer in the car at the time.
• 14:32
  Mr. Taylor, I want you to tell us what happened out there, what
• 14:35
  you observed. I was rolling to a stop and I
• 14:39
  was going about 5 to 7 miles an hour and I noticed something in
• 14:42
  my peripheral vision sent an icy chill up my back.
• 14:46
  So I jammed on my brakes and I backed up, noticed over the
• 14:50
  well, my I drive a Volkswagen out of my window and over my
• 14:55
  Fender. There was something along the
• 14:57
  side of the road that looked like it could either be very
• 15:00
  lifelike looking mannequin or a dead body.
• 15:03
  So I jammed my car in reverse. You didn't get out of your car
• 15:07
  there? No.
• 15:09
  How were you dressed? Do you recall wearing blue jeans
• 15:12
  and a button down shirt? What kind of shoes were you
• 15:15
  wearing? They're suede shoes with the
• 15:18
  synthetic synthetic sole. I've heard them called Peter Pan
• 15:22
  shoes. You didn't get out of your car
• 15:26
  and you indicated you jammed it in reverse?
• 15:28
  Yes. And did what?
• 15:31
  I backed up, went to the intersection.
• 15:33
  I wanted to go find a phone and get somebody out there to look
• 15:37
  at it. OK, What happened next, Sir?
• 15:40
  Well, I go to the intersection. I went S on 82nd to go back to
• 15:45
  my house, which was a couple of blocks away.
• 15:48
  And I saw a woman or I saw a car coming in my direction.
• 15:52
  So I flashed my lights and stopped my car and got out and
• 15:55
  flagged her down. What did you say to her?
• 15:58
  I told her that I thought I had seen a dead body over on the
• 16:02
  road. Did you tell her you thought you
• 16:04
  needed a witness? She asked me that.
• 16:08
  She asked me. That eventually came up.
• 16:11
  I didn't tell her I thought I needed a witness.
• 16:14
  OK, I just want you to go through and tell us what
• 16:17
  transpired there, OK? I stopped the car.
• 16:20
  She rolled down her window a little bit.
• 16:23
  And I said, well, first I didn't know what to say because what do
• 16:27
  you say? So after I collected my
• 16:29
  thoughts, I said, I think I just saw a dead body on the road over
• 16:33
  here. She said, well, did you go get
• 16:36
  out and look? And I said no, but would you go
• 16:40
  look? And she said no, she didn't want
• 16:42
  to go look. And I asked her if she'd follow
• 16:45
  me to a phone. And you know that.
• 16:47
  I mean, that really is how something like that transpires,
• 16:50
  right? You go look no gosh.
• 16:55
  Yeah. And I can't imagine, you know,
• 16:58
  running up on a dead body. I've always felt like that was
• 17:02
  something that might happen to me because I had a really weird
• 17:05
  dream 20 years ago. And then when I moved to Central
• 17:09
  Missouri, I happened to be walking down a hiking trail.
• 17:13
  And it just happened to be the same hiking trail that I was
• 17:16
  walking down in my dream where I found the dead body.
• 17:21
  So I try to avoid that hiking trail for the most part.
• 17:26
  Got freaked out, no doubt. Yeah, yeah.
• 17:29
  So I'm always kind of like, you know, I don't know.
• 17:32
  And we also hunt for mushrooms and stuff like that.
• 17:35
  So you know, you always hear the the mushroom hunters are the
• 17:39
  ones that find everything so. Digging around under stuff.
• 17:43
  Yep, no Plano. So and then of course we have in
• 17:48
  1986 there are no cell phones and so you got to go all the way
• 17:53
  back to you know where you know somebody or whatever or you know
• 17:57
  that somebody will let you in to call.
• 17:59
  Pocket full of Dimes. Yeah, whatever this looks like.
• 18:02
  For sure. Yeah.
• 18:03
  OK. So did you ask her where husband
• 18:10
  was or anything of that? She asked me why.
• 18:14
  OK, let wait. Hold on.
• 18:16
  OK, yeah, it's written weird. OK, I stopped the car.
• 18:19
  She rolled down her window a little bit and I said, well,
• 18:22
  first I didn't know what to say because what do you say?
• 18:25
  So after I collected my thoughts, I said I think I just
• 18:28
  saw a dead body on the road over here.
• 18:31
  She said, well, did you get out and look?
• 18:34
  And I said no, but would you go look?
• 18:37
  And she said no, she didn't want to go look.
• 18:39
  And I asked her if she'd follow me to a phone.
• 18:43
  Did you ask her where husband was or any of that?
• 18:48
  She asked me why and I said, well, I don't know.
• 18:51
  I may need a witness. I didn't ask her to be my
• 18:54
  witness. I just.
• 18:56
  OK. Did you ask her where her
• 18:58
  husband was? OK, so we're just assuming she
• 19:01
  has a husband? Yeah, 87.
• 19:06
  Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's 87.
• 19:08
  Yeah, he said. I asked her if she'd follow me
• 19:12
  to a phone and she said we could go to her house and use the
• 19:15
  phone. I asked her if her husband was
• 19:18
  home and she said no, she wasn't married, but was she was
• 19:22
  engaged. I don't know why she said that,
• 19:25
  but she did. And then I said, well, then I
• 19:28
  live right over here, my mother's home.
• 19:30
  You can follow me to my house. They're trying to be
• 19:35
  appropriate. Appropriate.
• 19:36
  Yes, they are. Yeah, all women must have a
• 19:40
  husband. OK, So what happened next?
• 19:45
  She followed me to my house. OK.
• 19:48
  And what did you do when you got to your house?
• 19:51
  I went in. She didn't want to go in, and I
• 19:54
  could understand that. How far do you live from where
• 19:57
  you saw what you thought was a body?
• 19:59
  I don't know. You mean distance wise?
• 20:02
  A block. A couple of blocks. 3 or 4.
• 20:06
  OK, Three or four blocks. You live in an apartment complex
• 20:10
  out there? I live in a house.
• 20:12
  I live in a house. You live in a house out there?
• 20:15
  Near that intersection? Not too far away?
• 20:18
  Yes. So she followed you to your
• 20:21
  house. What happened then?
• 20:23
  I went inside. What did you do?
• 20:26
  I called the police. What did you tell the police?
• 20:29
  I told them that I wasn't sure but I thought I might have seen
• 20:33
  a dead body. What happened next?
• 20:36
  Did they indicate they would come out or sure?
• 20:39
  They asked me where. I described the location and
• 20:41
  they asked me can we stop? A second, like, you got to think
• 20:46
  about her just rolling up on this guy, right?
• 20:49
  He's like, there's a body out there.
• 20:50
  You go look like everything's so wild.
• 20:53
  And then she does go back to his house.
• 20:55
  I mean, she doesn't go in, but she had no obligation.
• 20:57
  She didn't see a body. She.
• 21:00
  Yeah, she doesn't know who this guy is or why he's weaving this
• 21:03
  story. So that's that's pretty wild
• 21:05
  today. I don't think that woman would
• 21:07
  go. No, probably not.
• 21:11
  You know, I mean, we've gotten to the point where, you know, if
• 21:14
  you see somebody on your front porch, you're not going to open
• 21:17
  the door because so many people have been attacked that way as
• 21:21
  well, so. It's a real sign of the times
• 21:24
  that she got in her car and went to the his house and even to the
• 21:28
  parking lot. But yeah, OK, sorry.
• 21:31
  No, no, you're good. OK, Mr. Zelps, I'm going to
• 21:34
  object to anything they asked him.
• 21:36
  It is obvious hearsay. Your Honor.
• 21:40
  The court sustained. You indicated to them the
• 21:44
  location of the body? Yes.
• 21:47
  Did you receive any instructions as to what to do?
• 21:51
  Just wait there. All right, Sir.
• 21:53
  What happened next? While I was on the phone, the
• 21:56
  woman came to the door, rang the doorbell, and my mother answered
• 21:59
  the phone and she said she didn't want to.
• 22:03
  Mr. Zelps, I'm going to object to what she might have said.
• 22:06
  Your Honor. The court sustained.
• 22:09
  She came to your house. She walked up to your door while
• 22:12
  you were still on the phone to the police.
• 22:15
  Yes. OK.
• 22:17
  As a result of the conversation that they had, I got the girl's
• 22:21
  phone number. You got her name and phone
• 22:24
  number? Yes.
• 22:26
  What did you do with that? Did you ever give it to anyone?
• 22:29
  The police requested it, and they still have it.
• 22:32
  I've never gotten it back. So you gave the police her phone
• 22:36
  number? Yes.
• 22:37
  OK. What happened after that?
• 22:40
  Well, waited a long time. Seemed like an awfully long
• 22:43
  time. I expected to call back.
• 22:45
  It was driving me crazy. My mother was getting dressed.
• 22:49
  Mother Jeannie was getting dressed because they intended to
• 22:52
  go out there. They asked me.
• 22:54
  I was asked, Mr. Zelps, I'm going to object to anything that
• 22:58
  might have been asked to him. The court sustained it hearsay.
• 23:04
  So just imagine your son comes home and says, Mom, I think I
• 23:08
  saw a dead body. He's got this woman knocking on
• 23:12
  the door saying OK, what do we do next?
• 23:14
  So. There's right and I'm.
• 23:16
  Immediately validity to it at that point.
• 23:19
  Yeah, I'm immediately going to jump in the car and go and see
• 23:24
  what my son found. Absolutely.
• 23:26
  And especially if the police aren't coming yet, like.
• 23:29
  Yeah, they'll find us. No, exactly.
• 23:35
  So I can't imagine his mom, and I don't remember his mom.
• 23:40
  I remember him and his little brother, but I don't remember
• 23:43
  his mom. So All right, Mr. Taylor, I've
• 23:47
  got to tell you that you really can't tell me what other people
• 23:51
  said to you, OK? I'm having.
• 23:53
  I just want to say I'm having a hard time distinguishing between
• 23:56
  what happened and what was said. What was said is what happened.
• 24:02
  So that's where the confusion is coming from.
• 24:05
  OK. Did you go back to the scene?
• 24:08
  How long did you wait at your house before you did?
• 24:11
  In fact, about, I don't know, it was a long time, 510 minutes,
• 24:15
  maybe 20. But I called the police back.
• 24:18
  It is what happened to find out if they, if it was a dead body
• 24:23
  because I was sitting there. I was going crazy.
• 24:26
  So eventually you went back to the scene After what, 10 or 15
• 24:30
  minutes? You said yes, I called them
• 24:33
  back. How did you get back to the
• 24:34
  scene? Did you drive your car?
• 24:36
  No. How did you go back?
• 24:38
  My mother and Jeannie intended to go.
• 24:41
  My mother and Jeannie intended to go out there to check for
• 24:44
  signs of life, to see if this person was alive or if it was a
• 24:49
  person. Did you go out in your mother's
• 24:52
  car? Yes.
• 24:53
  Who drove the car? My mother.
• 24:56
  You didn't drive her car back out there?
• 24:58
  No, you went out there with your mother.
• 25:01
  And who's Jeannie? Jeannie is a friend of the
• 25:04
  family for a long time and recently widowed.
• 25:08
  You went back out there and what did you see when you arrived
• 25:11
  back out there? About 30 or 40 yards before we
• 25:16
  reached the intersection, I saw a police cruiser traveling West
• 25:19
  on Rogers Lane. And was it stopped or No, It was
• 25:24
  travelling. And then I saw some, the red and
• 25:26
  blue lights come on and I knew they had located the item,
• 25:29
  whatever it was. I got to the intersection.
• 25:32
  I talked to Officer Braley, introduced myself as the person
• 25:36
  who called in and asked him, you know, if it was OK.
• 25:41
  I'm curious, Sir, when you refer to just now, you said they had
• 25:45
  located the item or whatever it was, you know, it was a body
• 25:49
  now, do you not? Yes.
• 25:53
  Did you go? Did you stop out there with your
• 25:55
  mother and the other lady? We stopped as we arrived at the
• 25:59
  intersection while the police were already there.
• 26:02
  Did you make contact with any of the police?
• 26:05
  I talked. I got out.
• 26:07
  I introduced myself to the person that I know as Officer
• 26:11
  Braley Braley. Braley with an A Braley Braley.
• 26:18
  Excuse me. All right, Sir, without telling
• 26:21
  me what Officer Braley said. Tell me what happened and what
• 26:25
  you did. Did they put you in a police
• 26:27
  car? Yes.
• 26:30
  Did they try to? Did they ask you questions
• 26:32
  concerning what you had discovered?
• 26:35
  I learned, Mr. Zalps. Judge, I'm going to object to
• 26:38
  the leading nature of this question.
• 26:40
  The court overruled. Were you asked questions
• 26:44
  concerning what you discovered? No, I was asked.
• 26:48
  Excuse me? I learned, Mr. Zelps, I'm going
• 26:51
  to object that I should sit in the police car.
• 26:56
  Mr. Zelps, It's not responsive. The court sustained.
• 26:59
  It's not responsive. You were instructed to sit in
• 27:03
  the police car. I'm sorry.
• 27:04
  Excuse me? You were instructed to sit in
• 27:07
  the police car? Yes.
• 27:09
  And did you do that? Yes.
• 27:11
  And were you later joined by an officer there?
• 27:14
  Yes. Were you questioned concerning
• 27:17
  this situation? Not that I would recall.
• 27:20
  Did the officer take you somewhere?
• 27:22
  Have have you wait there? Have you wait there or what?
• 27:26
  I waited in the car. He he had you wait.
• 27:30
  Did someone else contact you later?
• 27:32
  Yes. I waited until eventually I was
• 27:35
  introduced to the detectives. And did the detectives talk to
• 27:38
  you there? Yes.
• 27:40
  They asked me about my background.
• 27:42
  OK. You talked to the detectives
• 27:44
  there. Did they take you down to the
• 27:47
  police station? Eventually, yes.
• 27:51
  I glitched. Yeah.
• 27:52
  I'm always glitching. Did the police ever ask you to
• 27:58
  search your car, Sir? Three times.
• 28:01
  And did you allow them? Yes.
• 28:04
  Were you ever requested to allow them to search your house?
• 28:08
  Were you ever requested to allow them to search your house?
• 28:11
  Yes. Did you allow them to do that?
• 28:14
  Yes. Did you ever provide hair
• 28:17
  samples in this case, Sir? Yes.
• 28:20
  At any time out there? Did you get up near the body?
• 28:24
  No, Sir. You discovered that body you
• 28:27
  indicated about 8:55 PM on on the 1st of October 1986?
• 28:34
  Yes. What day were you charged in
• 28:37
  this case initially? October 3rd, October 3rd, and
• 28:42
  you had been talking with the police and cooperating with them
• 28:44
  since then, before then extensively.
• 28:48
  What happened with your cooperation with the police when
• 28:51
  they arrested you? I feel I was set up.
• 28:55
  You stopped cooperating. Mr. Zelps object to the
• 29:03
  relevance of this. You got to think 55 on October
• 29:07
  1st would have been really dark because we changed daylight
• 29:10
  saving time, right? We've pushed it back to
• 29:12
  November, but that would have been, that would have been
• 29:16
  really dark. And so you put that back into
• 29:18
  context of her stopping her going to his house.
• 29:22
  I mean, really think about how late at night that was for her.
• 29:25
  I don't know why I'm stuck on that, but it's just trying to
• 29:27
  paint that picture of probably how different it would be today,
• 29:31
  but also how's he seeing that in the dark like that?
• 29:36
  Yeah, I mean, especially that stretch of Rd.
• 29:39
  Back then, it was not lit up. It was, you know, I mean, there
• 29:45
  were houses out there and stuff, but it wasn't the main highway
• 29:50
  like it is now. And him saying I may need a
• 29:52
  witness is very suspicious to me.
• 29:55
  That's not where my mind goes. If I think a body is out there,
• 29:58
  I'm just like freaked out. Oh my gosh, we got to call
• 30:01
  police. Not do you have a boyfriend or a
• 30:03
  husband 'cause I know you need a witness.
• 30:05
  Like, what is this boyfriend or husband gonna do that would
• 30:08
  drive over there and go. It's it's all weird, right?
• 30:12
  Yeah, no. And I think some of it may come
• 30:15
  from his military background because he he is a veteran.
• 30:22
  I can't remember. I think it was Army, but I don't
• 30:24
  remember. So, yeah.
• 30:27
  And Sophia says she wondered about the darkness, too.
• 30:31
  Yeah. And I mean, that place really is
• 30:34
  dark at night, especially back then.
• 30:39
  Right now it's dark out there. But back then it was even
• 30:43
  darker, more secluded, all that stuff.
• 30:48
  So. But yeah, I mean, probably
• 30:52
  because he was a good looking young man.
• 30:56
  I mean, if we're being honest. So that's what I would.
• 31:04
  That's what I would think. So it's it's he says, I feel I
• 31:11
  was set up. You stop cooperating.
• 31:14
  Mr. Zelps object to the relevance of this.
• 31:17
  The court overruled. You stopped cooperating once you
• 31:22
  were arrested, didn't you, Mr. Zopps?
• 31:24
  I'm going to object to the leading form of the question.
• 31:27
  The court overruled. I can't say that I stopped
• 31:30
  cooperating. I can say that I lost an awfully
• 31:33
  lot of faith in the people that were conducting the
• 31:36
  investigation. Were you upset when you were
• 31:40
  arrested? Yes.
• 31:42
  I made that known in your car, Sir.
• 31:45
  Certain items were found and I'm going to go through there and
• 31:48
  ask you about them. What about a blackjack or police
• 31:53
  slapper? Was that in your automobile?
• 31:56
  Yes, it was. Where was it located at?
• 32:00
  In the car? Clearly visible on the
• 32:02
  floorboard. Why was that in your car?
• 32:06
  Sometimes I deal with unruly people.
• 32:08
  I've never had to use it, I've never carried it, but it made me
• 32:12
  feel good just to have it around.
• 32:15
  As a collector of outstanding debts, sometimes you deal with
• 32:18
  people who don't like to see you coming.
• 32:21
  OK. Yeah, OK.
• 32:24
  Was it for your protection? Yes.
• 32:27
  You never used it, never used it, never carried it.
• 32:31
  Well, you were carrying it that night, apparently.
• 32:35
  No, it was in my car. It had been in my car.
• 32:38
  I got it at a garage sale. OK.
• 32:41
  It had been in your car for a while?
• 32:43
  Sure. It just stayed there.
• 32:46
  When you talk about carrying it, you talk about on your person,
• 32:50
  right? I never carried it on my person.
• 32:54
  And there were some marijuana seeds, I believe.
• 32:56
  Yes, there were. What were they doing in your
• 33:00
  car? Mr. Zelps?
• 33:02
  Object to relevance. Your Honor.
• 33:04
  Mr. Calvert, Your Honor defends themselves.
• 33:08
  Mr. Zelps, I'm going to object to argument in front of jury if
• 33:11
  you're going to argue. The court overruled.
• 33:15
  Mr. Zelps. OK.
• 33:18
  What was the marijuana seeds doing in your car?
• 33:21
  They were just there. Do you have any hobbies or
• 33:24
  anything that might? Mr. Zelps, I object to the
• 33:27
  leading nature of these questions.
• 33:29
  The court overruled. They were one element of a set
• 33:34
  of seeds I've collected over the years.
• 33:37
  I have seeds from various different plants.
• 33:40
  Most of them are weeds. I'm sorry, wheat.
• 33:46
  I'm sorry, Wheat. He's a funny 1.
• 33:53
  Most of them are weeds, like spiny type weeds, yes, Yucca
• 33:57
  plant, that kind of thing. Is that a hobby?
• 34:01
  I'm interested in botany, yes. You know what would make it even
• 34:05
  better? If he had like a button of
• 34:06
  peyote in his car, 'cause that would be totally Oklahoma,
• 34:09
  right? I'm interested in botany.
• 34:15
  Yes, I have seeds in my car, beans even.
• 34:21
  It's not a hobby. I'm interested in botany.
• 34:24
  Yes. All right, Sir.
• 34:26
  What about the gloves? Why were the gloves there?
• 34:29
  They're tools. I have eczema on my hands.
• 34:32
  Eczema is an allergic reaction aggravated by tension and
• 34:36
  anxiety. When I work on my car and I
• 34:39
  drive a 1970 Volkswagen Beetle, I often have to work on my car.
• 34:45
  You know, it's funny when I remembered this case and you
• 34:49
  know, I didn't have much to go on.
• 34:51
  Just my memory from 7 years old, right?
• 34:55
  I remember this tan VW Beetle and I'm like, surely there's no
• 35:00
  way it was really a tan VW Beetle.
• 35:03
  Right. Ted Bundy?
• 35:04
  Yeah. Uh huh.
• 35:06
  Got you. And so when it was too.
• 35:09
  It is season, right? Yeah, it was tan.
• 35:11
  Yeah. So when it was confirmed in the
• 35:14
  transcripts, I was just like, Oh my gosh, my memory was correct.
• 35:18
  I wasn't blending to yeah to incidents.
• 35:22
  Yeah. OK, so let's see.
• 35:26
  I often have to work on my car if I'm having, if I'm tense,
• 35:30
  having a bad day or whatever. Any type of chemicals can make
• 35:35
  my hands flare up and break out. If my hands are messed up, I
• 35:39
  can't work. OK, Your hands, do they break
• 35:42
  out in a rash or how would you describe it?
• 35:46
  I would describe it as something like athlete's foot.
• 35:49
  OK I definitely would not have described it like that.
• 35:54
  They get bubbles on them, fluid evaporates, the skin is
• 35:57
  separated and dies off leaving raw skin.
• 36:00
  That happens 3 or 4 times in a week.
• 36:02
  I have raw skin. I do my heart goes out to people
• 36:07
  who have eczema that bad. I do get it on my hands and it
• 36:13
  definitely not that bad, just a lot of itching and stuff.
• 36:16
  So I yeah, my sympathy for people who have to deal with
• 36:22
  that. What about the passenger seat in
• 36:27
  your Volkswagen, Sir? Let's talk about it for a
• 36:30
  moment. Was it removed from the
• 36:31
  automobile? It was at the time, yes.
• 36:35
  Why was it removed? Isn't that like Ted Bundy too?
• 36:39
  OK. So according to Robert Taylor,
• 36:46
  in the spring of that year, 1986, I was living with my
• 36:50
  father. We had the floorboard had rusted
• 36:53
  out, which is what happens to most old, almost all old
• 36:58
  Volkswagens. We took off the body, torched
• 37:01
  out the floorboard on both sides.
• 37:03
  The things that the seat would have fixed to the runners there
• 37:07
  torched out the entire floorboard, replaced them with
• 37:09
  manufactured replacements. They were made of inferior
• 37:14
  metal. The original metal was .055
• 37:18
  thick. The replacement metal was
• 37:20
  American made .035 thick. It was just cheap and flimsy.
• 37:26
  So I had put a Jack in the seat to Jack the runners on the seat
• 37:31
  so that I could slide them down the rails.
• 37:35
  When I had slid them down the rails it bound up.
• 37:38
  In the process of beating the seats back on the rails, it
• 37:41
  messed up the rails and while sitting on the seat the
• 37:43
  passenger leaned back and the rails that would hold the seat
• 37:47
  down bent up and it was going to be an all day.
• 37:51
  The seat was no longer anchored. I rode with it in there like
• 37:59
  that for months, but it wasn't anchored to the floor, right?
• 38:05
  Is that why it was removed Right.
• 38:08
  It was not able to be anchored and I had come to a fast stop
• 38:11
  recently with a passenger. I realized the safety hazard and
• 38:16
  I figured it would be best for them to sit in the very back if
• 38:20
  they were going to sit there. 80s.
• 38:23
  Yeah, right. I'm just I'm thinking of a
• 38:26
  scenario of being in AVW Beetle in high school and all of a
• 38:33
  sitting in the. Back.
• 38:36
  Because the front the front passenger seat was missing.
• 38:40
  Funny. OK, so Sir, were you questioned
• 38:45
  concerning your whereabouts prior to discovering the body?
• 38:51
  Hold on just a second. I need to cough.
• 38:56
  I'll take a drink while I'm at it, OK?
• 39:02
  It almost makes me want to go out and get an old Volkswagen.
• 39:06
  Be honest. The bottom though, that's so
• 39:08
  classic. I know.
• 39:10
  Interesting. After I discovered the body, I
• 39:13
  was questioned about that. Did you provide the police with
• 39:17
  that information? Yes.
• 39:19
  After you were charged, how long before?
• 39:22
  How long did you remain charged before something else happened?
• 39:26
  I was charged and I was released about 3330, something like that
• 39:30
  on Monday the 6th of October. Do you know what time Charles
• 39:36
  charges were filed that Monday? Murder one.
• 39:41
  Do you know what time they were filed?
• 39:43
  Oh, no, I don't. When were you arrested?
• 39:46
  I was arrested around 8 Friday evening.
• 39:51
  The third. You spent the weekend in jail?
• 39:53
  Yes. Have you taken any sort of
• 39:56
  action concerning that, Sir? Mr. Zelps?
• 40:01
  I'm going to object, Your Honor. May I approach the court?
• 40:05
  Yes, Mr. Zelps. Out of the hearing of the jury,
• 40:09
  I anticipate the court, it's irrelevant.
• 40:12
  Mr. Calvert goes to show the state of mind.
• 40:15
  He thinks he's been wronged. And the court, why is that
• 40:18
  relevant to whether or not Mr. Calvert?
• 40:22
  During opening statement, the defense clearly indicated that
• 40:25
  they're going to try to point the finger at Mr. Taylor as the
• 40:28
  individual who committed this crime.
• 40:30
  The court, I believe we're talking.
• 40:34
  I believe we're talking about he's filed suit.
• 40:37
  Mr. Zelps? Yes, Sir.
• 40:39
  The Court. I think it's irrelevant to
• 40:41
  anything that we might know concerning this crime, how it
• 40:44
  was committed. Mr. Zelp.
• 40:45
  Thank you. End of conference at bench by
• 40:48
  Mr. Calvert. Mr. Taylor.
• 40:50
  I'll withdraw that question. I have another one for you.
• 40:54
  Do you have any idea at all, Sir, how that body came to be
• 40:58
  there? No, Mr. Mr. Zelps objects
• 41:03
  Speculation. Your Honor, the court overruled.
• 41:07
  No. Did you have anything to do with
• 41:09
  the death of Tina Hogan? No.
• 41:12
  You did, however, discover the body and report it to the
• 41:15
  police? Yes.
• 41:17
  Are you angry at the police, Sir?
• 41:19
  Yes. Mr. Zelps object to relevance.
• 41:23
  Mr. Calvert, pass the witness, Your Honor.
• 41:27
  Mr. Zelps, may I inquire? Your Honor, the Court.
• 41:30
  You may cross examination by Mr. Zelps.
• 41:35
  Yes. Poor Athena.
• 41:40
  OK. Are you employed at this time,
• 41:42
  Mr. Taylor? Yes.
• 41:45
  Where are you employed at? Holiday Bowl.
• 41:48
  Holiday Bowl. And it's my understanding now
• 41:51
  you are not employed. You are not.
• 41:54
  And it's my understanding now you are not employed on October
• 41:59
  1st, 1986. That is correct.
• 42:02
  And you had some type of employment, is that correct?
• 42:05
  Freelancing would mean a fellow would be working.
• 42:09
  I was able to be compensated for work that I was doing.
• 42:12
  Right. And you're still going to school
• 42:15
  now? No, I'm not.
• 42:17
  And what were you studying out there at Cameron back on October
• 42:20
  1st, 1986? Data processing.
• 42:25
  You recall the preliminary hearing we had in this matter,
• 42:28
  Sir? Yes.
• 42:30
  Do you recall that you testified Underoath in that matter?
• 42:33
  Yes. I want to direct your attention
• 42:36
  to the preliminary hearing. Volume one will be on the, I
• 42:40
  believe, in December of 1986. Do you recall this question?
• 42:44
  Question, Mr. Zelps? Mr. Calvert, I'll let you catch
• 42:48
  up with me first. Volume one, page 122.
• 42:51
  You probably need that volume, Mr. Calvert.
• 42:54
  What page, Counsel? Mr. Zelps 122 Line 13 by Mr.
• 43:01
  Zelps, do you recall this question?
• 43:02
  I asked you what were you studying and you recall your
• 43:07
  answer psychology. Do you recall that answer?
• 43:11
  I recall that answer. Psychology.
• 43:12
  I thought the question was what were you majoring in, Sir?
• 43:19
  The question was Line 13 Question What were you studying?
• 43:24
  Answer Psychology. Do you recall making that
• 43:27
  underoath? Yes, I do.
• 43:30
  You told these ladies and gentlemen a different answer
• 43:32
  already this morning, have you not?
• 43:35
  I was also studying data processing, Sir.
• 43:38
  You told me that you were studying, Sir.
• 43:42
  You told them you were studying to the question I just asked you
• 43:46
  a few minutes ago, Data processing.
• 43:48
  Is that correct? They are both accurate answers,
• 43:51
  Sir. Sir, you told us one thing at
• 43:54
  the preliminary hearing and now you've told us another.
• 43:57
  Mr. Calvert, Your Honor, I've got to object.
• 44:00
  Counsel is being argumentative. He's responded three or four
• 44:04
  times. The court overruled by Mr. Zelp.
• 44:09
  You told us one thing at the preliminary hearing and now
• 44:12
  you're telling us another thing here.
• 44:14
  Is that correct? That is correct.
• 44:17
  More than two things can be true at the same time.
• 44:21
  Yes, Sir. Now, I'm going to ask you for
• 44:23
  this, Sir, if you'll answer my questions that I ask you and not
• 44:27
  respond when it's uncalled for. If you can't do that, I'll ask
• 44:31
  the judge to help me. You understand?
• 44:35
  I understand, Sir. Which time were you telling the
• 44:40
  truth? The preliminary hearing or
• 44:42
  today? Both times, Sir.
• 44:45
  Both times to the exact same question.
• 44:47
  Yes, Sir. Now, as I understand it, today
• 44:52
  you're telling us that you were studying data processing and you
• 44:56
  had already completed your study in psychology.
• 44:58
  Is that correct? That's what you told Mr.
• 45:01
  Calvert. Is that what you told us?
• 45:03
  Yeah, that's what I told you. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of
• 45:07
  the jury, then how both things can be true.
• 45:10
  If you were already done finished studying psychology,
• 45:13
  look them in the eye and tell them how you could do both
• 45:16
  things at the same time. When a person gets a four year
• 45:21
  degree, they're required to have a major and a minor.
• 45:25
  They're required to study two subjects.
• 45:28
  When someone is asked what they're studying, generally they
• 45:30
  refer to their major. My major was psychology.
• 45:35
  I was also achieving a minor. At the time, I was studying
• 45:39
  mostly data processing. So it is accurate to say that I
• 45:44
  was studying data processing, and it's accurate to say that I
• 45:48
  was studying psychology. But you weren't studying any
• 45:52
  psychology. You told the jury that this
• 45:54
  morning. Is that correct?
• 45:56
  You'd done your psychology studying.
• 45:58
  Isn't that correct? Smiling about something,
• 46:01
  something funny to you? Oh, my goodness.
• 46:06
  OK. I just don't like your attitude.
• 46:10
  I don't feel that I should be subjected to this.
• 46:12
  I found a body and I reported it.
• 46:15
  I think this is a farce. Mr. Taylor.
• 46:18
  I'm going to remind you of something.
• 46:20
  This is a court of law, and you can conduct yourself as such.
• 46:24
  You asked the question, Sir. I didn't ask for that response,
• 46:28
  did I? No, Sir.
• 46:32
  Let me ask you these questions. Have you ever been in the
• 46:35
  service? Yes, I have.
• 46:38
  And what branch were you in the service, Sir?
• 46:41
  United States Navy. And how long did you serve in
• 46:44
  the service? Nine months and 14 days.
• 46:48
  And why were you discharged? Early, Sir?
• 46:51
  I have eczema on my hands, Sir. They let you in the service, you
• 46:55
  pass the physical. When did you decide you weren't
• 46:58
  fit for the service? They decided I wasn't fit for
• 47:02
  the service. That sounds typical.
• 47:07
  You. You live at 7929 Terrace Hills,
• 47:11
  Is that correct? Yes.
• 47:14
  Who lives out there at this time?
• 47:16
  I do. My mother and Jeannie.
• 47:18
  Jeannie is a family friend That you testified.
• 47:21
  What is her age? Approximately 50 years old.
• 47:25
  And you are married at this time?
• 47:27
  No, I'm not. Are you currently living with
• 47:30
  anyone as a girlfriend? No, I'm not.
• 47:33
  OK. Let me ask you this, Sir.
• 47:35
  Have you traveled down Rogers Lane often?
• 47:38
  Yes, I have. And that would be day and night.
• 47:43
  Is that correct? Yes.
• 47:44
  OK, Let me ask you this before you get started any further.
• 47:49
  Have you or your attorney ever asked for immunity from
• 47:53
  prosecution in this case? Yes or no, Sir, Am I bound to
• 47:58
  answer that yes or no? That's a pretty fuzzy question.
• 48:01
  My attorney has requested it on my behalf without my knowledge,
• 48:06
  and then he told me about it. Judge.
• 48:08
  All right. You recall the preliminary
• 48:10
  hearing, don't you? Yes, I do.
• 48:13
  You think your attorney would know what he's doing, wouldn't
• 48:16
  you? I would think so.
• 48:19
  After you talked to him and he heard about the facts and
• 48:22
  everything, came right over here to the district attorney's
• 48:25
  office and asked for immunity and prosecution for you.
• 48:29
  Is that correct? My understanding is, is he sent
• 48:33
  a letter. Well, Sir, can you tell the
• 48:36
  ladies and gentlemen why you would need immunity if you
• 48:39
  didn't do anything? Well, I was already charged
• 48:42
  once, and I didn't feel like placing my life in the hands of
• 48:46
  the same people without a little bit of protection.
• 48:49
  You went and hired a lawyer before anything happened, didn't
• 48:52
  you? I don't know if he was actually
• 48:54
  hired or not. I did seek counsel.
• 48:57
  You sought counsel? Mr. Mike Miller, who used to be
• 49:01
  first assistant District Attorney, was your counsel, was
• 49:04
  he not? Yes.
• 49:06
  He was still your lawyer. No, not your lawyer anymore.
• 49:11
  All right. And he represented you and went
• 49:13
  with you to the police prior to any arrest, is that correct?
• 49:17
  Yes. And he asked also for immunity
• 49:21
  on your behalf, did he not? No, he did not ask for immunity,
• 49:26
  not at that time. Well, he asked for immunity at
• 49:29
  some point in this, did he? Not?
• 49:32
  After I had already been charged, no.
• 49:34
  Yeah, after I had already been charged.
• 49:36
  Sir, have you also considered taking the 5th Amendment?
• 49:41
  I was made aware that option was available to me, so and on.
• 49:47
  You have also considered it then, is that correct?
• 49:51
  On the advice of counsel, I considered that as an option.
• 49:55
  You've been charged with first degree murder in the death of
• 49:58
  Tina Hogan, haven't you? Yes.
• 50:01
  Did you make notes concerning your activities on that day?
• 50:04
  Yes. Let me ask you this.
• 50:07
  What time was your latest class over with?
• 50:10
  2:20 PM. OK.
• 50:12
  Did you go to class? Yes, I did.
• 50:15
  OK. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the
• 50:17
  time. Your class was over 220.
• 50:20
  You remember the preliminary hearing we had, don't you, Sir?
• 50:23
  Don't you? Yes, Mr. Zelps, Page 125 Mr.
• 50:27
  Calvert by Mr. Zelps, Do you recall this question?
• 50:31
  What time was your last class over?
• 50:33
  Answer 230, Sir. You told us 2:20 today, and you
• 50:37
  told us 230 back at the preliminary hearing.
• 50:41
  Can you tell us which time you were telling the truth?
• 50:45
  Can you tell us which time you were telling us the truth?
• 50:49
  Both times. Both times.
• 50:51
  Hours, Sir. Let me just.
• 50:54
  I'll ask you the next question. OK?
• 50:57
  That will be fine. You get to explain it if he asks
• 51:01
  the questions. That's how we do it in America.
• 51:04
  OK, 2:20 or 2:30 is something funny, Sir.
• 51:11
  I don't like your attitude. I'm sorry.
• 51:12
  It's just offensive to me. OK.
• 51:15
  You're offensive to me, Sir. Also.
• 51:19
  I understand. OK, we determine they both don't
• 51:25
  like each other. Yeah, I know.
• 51:31
  And Sophia said he's infuriating and he really is OK.
• 51:39
  I understand. OK.
• 51:42
  You said 220 and now you testified at the preliminary
• 51:46
  hearing 230. Would you agree with me?
• 51:48
  2:20 and 2:30 are not the same time.
• 51:51
  Exactly to a minute. Can you tell us why you're
• 51:55
  lying? Sir, I'm not lying.
• 51:59
  Can you explain how come you are giving different answers to the
• 52:02
  same question? Yes, I can tell us.
• 52:06
  Please. How can you tell us about that?
• 52:08
  Tell us Students generally refer to their classes.
• 52:13
  They're an hour long. It's a 50 minute hour.
• 52:17
  You have 10 minutes to go from one class to the other.
• 52:20
  It's not uncommon for someone to say when their class starts at
• 52:24
  1:30, they're in class from 1:30 to 2:30.
• 52:29
  It's just not uncommon. The class started at 1:30 and it
• 52:33
  ended at 2:20. You have 10 minutes to get to
• 52:37
  your next class. OK, OK.
• 52:42
  And I asked the same exact question at the preliminary
• 52:45
  hearing. What time was your latest class
• 52:47
  over with? And you answered 2:30 today.
• 52:50
  I asked you the same question and you answered 220.
• 52:54
  You've always got an answer why everything is different, don't
• 52:57
  you? Why did you make these notes
• 52:59
  concerning your activities that day?
• 53:03
  As a collector of outstanding debts, I make extensive notes
• 53:08
  whenever I'm trying my trade. Yes.
• 53:12
  Very disrespectful to Tina. Well, you didn't give those
• 53:16
  extensive notes to the police, did you?
• 53:18
  Yes, I did. What you did is you wrote down,
• 53:22
  told them what you did that day, didn't you?
• 53:25
  You didn't give them the notes, did you?
• 53:28
  Yes, I did. Isn't it true that Truman Petty
• 53:32
  is the one that gave them the notes where you were supposed to
• 53:35
  be? The cards, there are two sets of
• 53:39
  notes. There are, Yeah.
• 53:41
  I have a notebook I keep. Why was Truman Patty asked to
• 53:46
  give them to them? If you gave them to them, then
• 53:50
  Truman Petty retain the notes that he had pertaining to his
• 53:54
  business, which I had been working for for approximately 6
• 53:58
  hours. I had the notes relating to my
• 54:02
  business. Let's see.
• 54:04
  Also, I recall in the past you claim that Truman Petty is
• 54:07
  trying to set you up, too. Is that correct?
• 54:10
  No. Oh, it's not?
• 54:13
  No. What did you do after 2:30 when
• 54:16
  your class was over? I went upstairs to the computer
• 54:20
  lab to work on a program for which I had just received
• 54:23
  instructions. OK.
• 54:25
  You recall me asking this question?
• 54:28
  Page 125. Also, Mr. Calvert, question
• 54:31
  2:30. What did you do after 2:30 when
• 54:35
  the class was over? You recall your answer?
• 54:37
  I don't remember. Recall that answer back at
• 54:40
  preliminary hearing. I don't recall that.
• 54:43
  Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of this jury which
• 54:46
  time you were telling the truth then or now?
• 54:49
  I was telling the truth at the time that I didn't remember.
• 54:53
  I'm telling the truth now that I do remember.
• 54:57
  Can you tell us what has caused you to have a sudden memory
• 55:00
  gain? The Lawton police returned my
• 55:04
  property to me. Some of that property was my
• 55:06
  notes. Some of that property is your
• 55:09
  notes. You had those notes back at the
• 55:11
  time of the preliminary hearing, Sir, Did you not?
• 55:14
  No, I didn't. Well, what evidence have you had
• 55:18
  returned to you since the preliminary hearing?
• 55:21
  I was making a statement for my attorney.
• 55:24
  What evidence have you had returned to you since the
• 55:27
  preliminary hearing? One of the things I received was
• 55:31
  the statement that I was making for my attorney.
• 55:34
  That's the statement. Is that correct?
• 55:37
  Yes. You had that at the time of the
• 55:40
  preliminary hearing, didn't you? No, I didn't.
• 55:44
  OK, let me just ask you this. You recall me asking you this
• 55:48
  question, Sir? Page 127.
• 55:52
  I asked you what did you do after 2:30 and you said you
• 55:55
  didn't know. You recall your answer.
• 55:58
  I've not reviewed my notes. It's been a long time since
• 56:01
  then. I can tell you question, You
• 56:04
  don't remember. You don't have any independent
• 56:06
  recollection answer. Sure, if you'll give me a minute
• 56:10
  to sit here before you, You try to collect my thoughts.
• 56:15
  By that it indicates to me you had your notes.
• 56:19
  Did you have your notes or not? At the time of the preliminary
• 56:22
  hearing, I didn't have that statement.
• 56:26
  What statement are we talking about?
• 56:28
  The 13 page statement that I was preparing for my attorney, which
• 56:32
  fell in the hands of the Lawton police because it was in my
• 56:35
  possession when I was arrested. You got that back sense?
• 56:40
  Yes. The preliminary hearing?
• 56:42
  Yes. And who gave it back to you and
• 56:45
  what date, Sir? I don't know.
• 56:48
  Mr. Zelps. Judge, may I see the court file
• 56:51
  please? The court first volume, Mr.
• 56:53
  Zelps, I think it will be in the second, I'm not for sure by Mr.
• 56:58
  Zelp. Sir, were you aware that on the
• 57:01
  27th day of January 1987, the District Judge of this county
• 57:06
  entered an order ordering the State not to release any
• 57:09
  evidence in its possession pertaining to this case until
• 57:13
  further ordered of the court with prior notice to the
• 57:16
  defendant? Were you aware of that?
• 57:19
  No, Mr. Calvert, May I see that? May I see that, John?
• 57:23
  Mr. Zelps? Sure.
• 57:25
  By Mr. Zelps. Who was the officer that gave
• 57:28
  you your notes back? I received them through my
• 57:32
  attorney, I believe. Through your attorney.
• 57:34
  And what date was that, Sir? I don't know.
• 57:38
  Do you know where they are today?
• 57:41
  No, Mr. Calvert. Your Honor, may we approach the
• 57:44
  bench? I think I can clarify this, Mr.
• 57:47
  Zelps. If I can't clarify it on
• 57:49
  questioning, Your Honor, Mr. Calvert, I'll do it by Mr.
• 57:54
  Zelps. You don't know where your notes
• 57:56
  are today. I have a photocopy of the notes,
• 57:58
  but I don't know where the notes are.
• 58:02
  Where are your photocopies at? Excuse me.
• 58:07
  Where's your photocopy at? It's in my car.
• 58:10
  In your car downstairs. Uh huh.
• 58:13
  So you brought it to the courthouse today?
• 58:16
  Yes. So we can take a recess and you
• 58:19
  can go down there and get it and bring it back so we can look at
• 58:22
  them. Is that kosher?
• 58:26
  He can't help you. Mr. Taylor, would you answer my
• 58:29
  question? Theoretically, yes.
• 58:32
  Theoretically, I could see that it could happen.
• 58:35
  I could physically go down there and get the notes at recess.
• 58:39
  Will you go down and get your notes and bring them back up
• 58:42
  here so that these ladies and gentlemen of this jury can look
• 58:46
  where your whereabouts were that day?
• 58:49
  Not unless I'm ordered to. I'm not on trial here.
• 58:52
  That's my attitude. OK?
• 58:54
  I'm just trying to tell the truth.
• 58:56
  Yes, Sir. You.
• 58:58
  You're not on trial right now, are you?
• 59:01
  I'm trying to tell the truth, Mr. Zelps.
• 59:04
  I understand. Sure do.
• 59:06
  These ladies and gentlemen are trying to figure out who killed
• 59:09
  Tina Hogan. You've got some evidence you
• 59:12
  won't let them look at. That's just what you told us.
• 59:15
  Evidence relates to a crime, Mr. Zelps.
• 59:18
  I didn't do any crime, Judge. Excuse me, Mr. Taylor.
• 59:22
  This jury is the one that's going to determine who killed
• 59:24
  that little girl. You'd agreed with that, don't
• 59:27
  you? Yes.
• 59:29
  You going to put yourself in the place of the jury?
• 59:32
  No. You've got evidence that's
• 59:34
  relevant to this case and you're saying you're not going to
• 59:37
  provide it for us, Is that correct?
• 59:39
  That's correct. Thank you, Mr. Calvert.
• 59:43
  Your Honor, I've got to object. No one has established that's
• 59:47
  relevant at all. The court objection, it's
• 59:50
  overruled. The question was asked and
• 59:53
  answered before the objection by Mr. Zelps.
• 59:56
  Do you recall what neighbors you were?
• 59:59
  Sorry. Do you recall what neighborhoods
• 1:00:01
  you were in that day? Yes, I do.
• 1:00:04
  What neighborhoods were you in, Sir?
• 1:00:07
  I was in my neighborhood to begin with.
• 1:00:09
  Then I went to Cameron University.
• 1:00:12
  Then I went to Tomlinson Junior High School.
• 1:00:15
  That was just right down the street from my house.
• 1:00:17
  Then I went to 1716 Cash Rd. From there I went to just down
• 1:00:23
  the street to Cagles at 17th and Cash Rd.
• 1:00:28
  OK. And then I went to Columbia
• 1:00:30
  Square Apartments and then I went to Bells and Central Mall
• 1:00:34
  and I came to the DA's office and from the DA's office I went
• 1:00:38
  right up the street to 9th NW 7th St. just off of Gore.
• 1:00:43
  From there I went to 311 W Gore and from there I went to ARA
• 1:00:48
  Equipment Rentals at 2300 Block on Gore.
• 1:00:52
  From there I went to 4625 W Gore, which is an apartment
• 1:00:56
  complex, and from there I went back home.
• 1:01:00
  From there I went to Central Baptist Church just across the
• 1:01:03
  way here. It's 9th and B, and from there I
• 1:01:06
  went to 1003 and a half I. From there I went to 716 I and
• 1:01:13
  from there I went to 9th and Lee Church of God.
• 1:01:16
  How does he remember all of this?
• 1:01:19
  Yeah. This is so specific.
• 1:01:24
  I couldn't, yeah. Wild.
• 1:01:27
  OK. But I'm also thinking 9th and
• 1:01:31
  Lee, the Church of God, is that the same?
• 1:01:36
  Is that the same church that the Reverend Ronnie Miller was the
• 1:01:42
  preacher at? Because Reverend Ronnie Miller
• 1:01:53
  was the father of the man who beat Athena Hogan's mother
• 1:01:58
  almost to death two months before Athena died.
• 1:02:01
  What's his name? Reverend Ronnie Miller, I don't,
• 1:02:09
  I know he had a church, I thought on Lee and it was a
• 1:02:13
  Pentecostal church or Church of God.
• 1:02:17
  Ronnie entered seminary de la Ronnie Miller obituary Lee
• 1:02:21
  Church of God He's the pastor at 9th and Lee Church of God for
• 1:02:25
  the rest the next 28 yeah. Why did Robert Taylor go to his
• 1:02:31
  church? Ronnie Miller obit.
• 1:02:35
  He died in 2012. Good gravy, my mind's going all
• 1:02:41
  kinds of places right there. Lengthy illness.
• 1:02:44
  He died Norman, OK, age 75. Read more Lee.
• 1:02:52
  He was November 29th. Why would Robert Taylor go to
• 1:02:56
  Ronnie Miller's church? Ronnie entered seminary after
• 1:03:00
  his discharge and eventually pastored churches in California
• 1:03:03
  and Illinois before settling at Lawton where he was pastor at
• 1:03:06
  9th and Lee Church of God for the next 28 years.
• 1:03:10
  He retired in 1994 from this position.
• 1:03:14
  Yeah, and then he got arrested with the dead man's credit card
• 1:03:16
  and insurance fraud. Oh, it didn't say any of that.
• 1:03:22
  He loved collecting sports cars and coins.
• 1:03:25
  Amber. Yeah, so why would the man?
• 1:03:31
  OK, so the man who found Athena's body just so happened
• 1:03:36
  to go to the Church of God, where the the son of that man
• 1:03:43
  beat Athena Hogan's mother almost to death two months
• 1:03:47
  before. So Ronnie's son is the one who
• 1:03:50
  did that. Ronnie's son, Ronnie Miller
• 1:03:53
  Junior is the one who beat Athena's mom almost to death.
• 1:03:58
  And then Robert Taylor is going is.
• 1:04:01
  Going to that church. That church that very same day?
• 1:04:11
  That's bizarre. And is this the day he found the
• 1:04:18
  body right? Yes.
• 1:04:20
  So yeah, more questions need to be asked there.
• 1:04:28
  Yeah. Did you not know there was any
• 1:04:31
  connection that they knew each other or?
• 1:04:33
  No, I had no idea that Robert Taylor and Reverend Ronnie
• 1:04:38
  Miller knew each other at all. No.
• 1:04:44
  Why are people with all these places?
• 1:04:45
  Are these bad check places? That's what I'm thinking.
• 1:04:49
  That's what it seems like, right?
• 1:04:51
  Yeah. But how does he remember all of
• 1:04:54
  this? This is.
• 1:04:55
  Without his notes. If this is for your job and you
• 1:04:58
  don't have your notes, they're in the car or whatever it looks
• 1:05:02
  like. I, I don't remember.
• 1:05:06
  I don't remember anything like that.
• 1:05:08
  No, I don't either. I don't remember stuff like that
• 1:05:12
  not detailed, especially if I was just going through the
• 1:05:15
  motions for work. I'm just really hung up on the
• 1:05:20
  fact that he stopped at that church.
• 1:05:26
  And then was he? You're not stopping at a church
• 1:05:28
  like that necessarily for bad debt or checks.
• 1:05:32
  Well, I mean, Ronnie Miller got in trouble for financial.
• 1:05:36
  Yeah, OK. Fraud.
• 1:05:40
  You're right, it puts him in line with people who were doing.
• 1:05:44
  Well, I mean, if Athena, if Athena's mom was almost beat to
• 1:05:48
  death two months before Athena goes and is killed and it just
• 1:05:55
  so happens that the man who found her was at the Church of
• 1:06:00
  the father of the man who did that to her mom.
• 1:06:05
  That's. Not a coincidence.
• 1:06:09
  I don't believe in coincidences like that.
• 1:06:17
  Interesting. OK.
• 1:06:20
  OK, Yeah, the family's very shady.
• 1:06:23
  Joy. Yeah.
• 1:06:27
  Thank you, Sophia. I don't know what I just found,
• 1:06:29
  but that's it's very interesting.
• 1:06:33
  I mean, surely somebody connected those dots, right?
• 1:06:38
  Somebody did that. Of course, somebody, somebody
• 1:06:40
  has connected these dots and we're just going to find them
• 1:06:43
  later, right? Uh huh.
• 1:06:46
  OK. And snow.
• 1:06:47
  But yes, go ahead. OK.
• 1:06:49
  From there I went to Eight O 9 Monroe, to 34 O 8 SW Abilene and
• 1:06:55
  Ranch Oaks, and then I went to 711 Sedalia and from there I
• 1:07:00
  went to Columbia Square Apartments again and from there
• 1:07:03
  I went to Shelter Creek, 7225 Shelter Creek specific.
• 1:07:09
  Addresses. I'm just going to say it again,
• 1:07:11
  specific addresses. Right, exactly, very specific
• 1:07:16
  addresses because we've got 1003 and 1/2.
• 1:07:21
  Yeah, 809 Monroe 3408. What?
• 1:07:25
  What are these regular stops for him that he would know those
• 1:07:27
  addresses otherwise? This is very strange.
• 1:07:32
  Yeah. Maybe we'll learn.
• 1:07:40
  Somebody building an alibi. OK, Shelter Creek.
• 1:07:46
  Now, what time were you out there at Shelter Creek?
• 1:07:50
  I would say around 7:30 and 7:45, 7/30.
• 1:07:55
  So you were there late in the evening, is that correct?
• 1:07:58
  It was approaching dark. Yeah.
• 1:08:00
  Shelter Creek is out here on east side of town, is that
• 1:08:04
  correct? Yes, it is.
• 1:08:06
  That's kind of the Sandpiper is on the east side of town, isn't
• 1:08:10
  it? I would say it's more central,
• 1:08:13
  but some others might say it's east.
• 1:08:16
  Rogers Lane runs by Shelter Creek and it's almost.
• 1:08:20
  And it also runs out there by the Sandpiper, doesn't it?
• 1:08:23
  Yes. Is Mission Village out there
• 1:08:26
  close to the Sandpiper that runs by Rogers Lane, That runs by
• 1:08:30
  Shelter Creek, Yes. When were you out there in that
• 1:08:34
  Mission Village area? Oh, I've never been out there
• 1:08:38
  collecting any debts. When were you, Sir, is all I'm
• 1:08:42
  asking. I can't recall the date.
• 1:08:45
  What was the? Was it the same year as 86 or a
• 1:08:49
  year before or months before? I'd say it was in 1986, 1986.
• 1:08:56
  And what was your purpose of being out there in Mission
• 1:08:58
  Village in 1986? I had been out there.
• 1:09:02
  There's a family I know that lives out there.
• 1:09:04
  I don't know their last names. One of the sons name is James
• 1:09:08
  Ace. James Ace and I had given Truman
• 1:09:12
  Petty a ride home. He lives in Mission Village.
• 1:09:16
  Isn't it true, Sir, that you gave Truman Petty a ride home on
• 1:09:20
  October 30th, 1986? Excuse me?
• 1:09:24
  September 30th, 1986, The night before Tina Hogan's body was
• 1:09:29
  found on Rogers Lane. It was either the 29th or 30th.
• 1:09:33
  I hadn't known him very long at all.
• 1:09:36
  Well, now, you kind of were evasive of telling us when you
• 1:09:41
  were out there, and now you're saying it was either the 29th or
• 1:09:44
  30th. Did you have a sudden memory
• 1:09:47
  gain again? Well, I hadn't really remembered
• 1:09:50
  giving Truman Petty a ride home out there until you brought it
• 1:09:53
  up. I didn't bring it up.
• 1:09:56
  You mentioned Truman Petty's name.
• 1:09:58
  Not me, Sir. Isn't that correct?
• 1:10:01
  That's correct. You gave him a ride that night
• 1:10:04
  before the little girl was found.
• 1:10:06
  Is that correct? Either the night or two nights
• 1:10:10
  before? Yes, the night or two nights
• 1:10:12
  before. You're not going to doubt what
• 1:10:14
  Truman Petty says, are you? Truman Petty is a convicted
• 1:10:18
  felon. Twice, Sir.
• 1:10:20
  I don't know. I don't know.
• 1:10:21
  What are you going to believe what he's going to say or not?
• 1:10:26
  Well, I'd have to hear it first, Sir.
• 1:10:27
  He told he If he says you gave him a ride home the night
• 1:10:32
  before, are you going to tell us that?
• 1:10:35
  Sure, I'll agree with that. I mean, that's pretty
• 1:10:37
  insignificant. You aren't going to believe
• 1:10:40
  anything else he says. Bad about you, though, right?
• 1:10:43
  Well, I don't know. I'd have to hear it first.
• 1:10:47
  You like to have things very detailed and nice and neat.
• 1:10:50
  Are you like that? Is that the kind of person you
• 1:10:52
  are? I can't really say that's the
• 1:10:55
  type of person I am. I can say it's an ideal that I
• 1:10:59
  have. I'm sorry.
• 1:11:01
  You're what? Excuse me.
• 1:11:02
  Just a second. I forgot to ask you something.
• 1:11:05
  Mr. Crude brought it up. You know where Truman lives out
• 1:11:08
  there? No.
• 1:11:10
  Do you know he lives one house? Excuse me?
• 1:11:12
  Yeah, it would be the second house down from Tina Hogan.
• 1:11:18
  Did you know that? He had told me that.
• 1:11:21
  Oh, he did. He told you that.
• 1:11:23
  OK, now I was asking you a question about you being a nice
• 1:11:28
  and neat orderly type person. Is that how you are?
• 1:11:31
  Is that the kind of person you are?
• 1:11:33
  How can he remember every single place he stopped with detailed
• 1:11:37
  addresses and not remember if he gave this guy a ride?
• 1:11:40
  That doesn't make sense. Yeah, no, I agree.
• 1:11:43
  He's he's being combative or just being completely dishonest.
• 1:11:50
  Probably a little bit of both. Well, I said it's an ideal that
• 1:11:58
  I have. It's one thing that I aspire to,
• 1:12:00
  but for now, my room is a mess. Today it's a mess.
• 1:12:04
  Right. Is your bed made every morning?
• 1:12:06
  No. How often is it, would you say?
• 1:12:08
  I'd say about 75% of the time. OK.
• 1:12:12
  You fold up everything nice and neat.
• 1:12:14
  Never. Never.
• 1:12:16
  No. Never.
• 1:12:18
  Never. I'm sorry.
• 1:12:20
  Is it ever or never? Never.
• 1:12:22
  Ever. Good.
• 1:12:27
  Page 133. You recall this question.
• 1:12:30
  You fold up everything. Nice and neat answer. 75% of the
• 1:12:34
  time it would be sure. Now, you'd agree with me, would
• 1:12:39
  you? Not that never and 75% of the
• 1:12:43
  time are two different things, wouldn't you?
• 1:12:46
  My mother does my laundry. Sarah, would you agree with me?
• 1:12:51
  Mr. Zelps? Your Honor, I'm going to request
• 1:12:53
  the court to instruct the witness to answer the questions.
• 1:12:56
  The court answer the questions. Mr. Mr. Witness Yes, Sir.
• 1:13:03
  Sir, would you agree with me that 75% of the time and never
• 1:13:07
  are two different things? Yes.
• 1:13:10
  Which time were you telling the truth?
• 1:13:12
  Preliminary hearing or this jury today?
• 1:13:17
  Both times. Both times.
• 1:13:20
  Tell us how never and 75% of the time is the same thing, Mr.
• 1:13:26
  Zelps. Very few times in life will
• 1:13:28
  anything be that clear cut and black and white.
• 1:13:31
  I'm sorry. I'm a thinking, feeling human
• 1:13:35
  being. We have distorted perceptions
• 1:13:37
  and I can't help you. I'm sorry.
• 1:13:40
  Don't explain to me. Explain it to that jury.
• 1:13:43
  I'm not the one that lied up there.
• 1:13:46
  Mr. Calvert. Your Honor, I object to
• 1:13:48
  Council's sidebar comments. The court sustained Mr. Zelps by
• 1:13:53
  Mr. Zelps at the preliminary hearing.
• 1:13:55
  You said, though, that you folded up everything nice and
• 1:13:59
  neat and your answer was 75% of the time that would be correct.
• 1:14:05
  That's what you answered, right? Could you repeat the question
• 1:14:09
  that was asked, please? Yeah, the question was fold up
• 1:14:13
  everything nice and neat answer. 75% of the time it would be
• 1:14:17
  sure. Is that your answer?
• 1:14:20
  Yes, at least back at some other time.
• 1:14:24
  You told us in the past you like things nice.
• 1:14:27
  You like things nice and neat, right?
• 1:14:29
  Yes. You know, that little gag in
• 1:14:32
  that girl's mouth was folded up nice and neat.
• 1:14:35
  Did you know that, Sir? No, I didn't, Sir.
• 1:14:40
  Tell us what debts you were collecting out on Rogers Lane on
• 1:14:43
  82nd Street at the time. At that time of night, I wasn't
• 1:14:48
  collecting any debts. You weren't?
• 1:14:50
  No, Sir. Do you recall this question?
• 1:14:53
  Page 133? Tell me, whose debts were you
• 1:14:55
  collecting out on Rogers Lane, 82nd St. that time of night?
• 1:14:59
  Answer Jackson Browne. Do you recall that question and
• 1:15:03
  that answer, Sir? I recall it.
• 1:15:05
  Jackson Browne is a musician, Sir.
• 1:15:08
  Now listen, Mr. Zelps Judge, would you inform him not to make
• 1:15:14
  continuous comments? The court answer the question
• 1:15:17
  and then unless asked another one, do not volunteer
• 1:15:20
  information. Yes, Sir.
• 1:15:23
  You said something about Jackson Browne, is that correct?
• 1:15:26
  That is correct. At the preliminary hearing
• 1:15:29
  underoath, when I asked you that question, you said Jackson
• 1:15:33
  Browne, right? Yes.
• 1:15:35
  And I asked you the question. The next question was Jackson
• 1:15:38
  Browne and your answer was yes. Is that correct?
• 1:15:42
  I was yes or no, Sir. Isn't that correct?
• 1:15:45
  That's correct. Today you've testified that you
• 1:15:48
  weren't collecting the debts out there, is that correct?
• 1:15:51
  That's correct. Was it dark out there that
• 1:15:53
  night? It was dark, yes.
• 1:15:55
  What time did you leave? From 1716 Cache Rd.
• 1:16:00
  You know, that's only like 6 or seven blocks from my house too.
• 1:16:05
  My childhood home too. Approximately 83845.
• 1:16:10
  And you said it was dark, is that correct?
• 1:16:13
  Yes. And that's also where the cash
• 1:16:16
  Rd. killings or the lot and serial killings took place.
• 1:16:21
  Oh. So I was headed to 82nd and
• 1:16:28
  Rogers Lane. 82nd and Rogers Lane.
• 1:16:31
  Now I've been out there at 82nd and Rogers Lane.
• 1:16:34
  Fort Sill's on the north right. Yes.
• 1:16:36
  There's a field on the other side until you get to a housing
• 1:16:39
  addition. Is that correct?
• 1:16:41
  Yes. OK.
• 1:16:43
  And can you tell us what you're going to do out there that
• 1:16:46
  evening? It was my intent to sit there
• 1:16:49
  and listen to music and watch the flares come down at Fort
• 1:16:53
  Sill like I've done many times before.
• 1:16:56
  Let's see. I want you to step down here and
• 1:17:00
  now testify. But I want you to make yourself
• 1:17:02
  familiar with this map here. And once you get familiar with
• 1:17:05
  it, I want you to put AT on your house, OK, where you are living.
• 1:17:10
  I'll help you get it in the right area and see if that looks
• 1:17:14
  familiar. Could you step down, please?
• 1:17:17
  OK. Have you looked at this map?
• 1:17:19
  Inaudible. You can.
• 1:17:21
  You can't testify. You've indicated.
• 1:17:23
  Excuse me. Go ahead and sit down.
• 1:17:25
  You've indicated Mr. Taylor a red T, which is the third house
• 1:17:29
  from the corner on Terrace Hills Blvd.
• 1:17:32
  Is that correct? It's the 4th house.
• 1:17:34
  Yes. 4th house. Well, you've got the third one
• 1:17:37
  marked with AT on it. There's a house on the corner of
• 1:17:40
  82nd and Terrace Hills, OK, From the corner of 81st St. it would
• 1:17:46
  be the 3rd house, is that correct?
• 1:17:49
  Yes. OK.
• 1:17:51
  And you agreed that Fort Sill is up here, is that correct?
• 1:17:55
  Yes, I would. And this is Rogers Lane that
• 1:17:57
  runs up here, right? That's correct.
• 1:18:00
  And so you were driving down here, 82nd and Rogers Lane, and
• 1:18:04
  listening to your radio and watching flares, is that
• 1:18:07
  correct? That's correct.
• 1:18:10
  And you went past 82nd Street, is that correct?
• 1:18:13
  That's correct. Well, Sir, I drove out there.
• 1:18:18
  Where were you going to stop on 82nd or on Rogers Lane after you
• 1:18:23
  got past 82nd St. Probably 20 or 40 yards.
• 1:18:28
  OK. Are you positive that's where
• 1:18:29
  you were going to stop? You said you were slowing down.
• 1:18:32
  He was almost going 7 to 10 miles an hour.
• 1:18:36
  So I guess you were getting ready to stop, right?
• 1:18:39
  I don't know how a person could be positive to where they were
• 1:18:42
  going to stop. It's going to be in the general
• 1:18:45
  vicinity. Sure.
• 1:18:46
  Within twenty, 3040 yards. Is that correct?
• 1:18:49
  Yes, Sir. On this map, it has been
• 1:18:52
  stipulated to and no objection by the District Attorney.
• 1:18:57
  It's clear that this land starts dropping off to a Creek down
• 1:19:00
  here, so the elevation gets lower.
• 1:19:03
  You'd agree with that, would you not?
• 1:19:05
  Eventually, yes. And Sir, would you tell the
• 1:19:08
  ladies and gentlemen how you were going to find yourself in
• 1:19:11
  such a good position down at the bottom towards the Creek to see
• 1:19:15
  those flares go off on those hills?
• 1:19:17
  Oh, good point. Well, I've been out there and I
• 1:19:20
  don't know what he's talking about 'cause there's not much of
• 1:19:23
  A, there's not much of an incline or anything there.
• 1:19:26
  Oh, not big slope. I think he's just making a
• 1:19:30
  mountain out of a molehill, really.
• 1:19:32
  Trying to up a little, I got you.
• 1:19:35
  Yeah, so I wouldn't have been down to the Creek.
• 1:19:38
  Well, Sir, you would agree with me, would you Not that the
• 1:19:42
  elevation up here is much higher for observation of flares on the
• 1:19:46
  mountains. There's a lot of traffic on that
• 1:19:49
  road. Yes, I'd agree with you.
• 1:19:50
  A lot of traffic on the road. Oh, so you know, that's not a
• 1:19:54
  lot of traffic on this road? I know that.
• 1:19:59
  I have parked on the side where there's a lot of traffic, and it
• 1:20:03
  was just about been a hazard to my house, so I figured that's a
• 1:20:08
  bad idea. So you knew there was not a lot
• 1:20:12
  of traffic past 82nd West, isn't it?
• 1:20:15
  Is that what you're telling us, isn't it?
• 1:20:17
  Yes. OK.
• 1:20:19
  Knew there was a lot of traffic. You knew this Creek was down
• 1:20:22
  here, didn't you? Yes.
• 1:20:24
  You know low land runs down towards the Creek, don't you?
• 1:20:29
  Yes, Captain Ferguson would agree with that.
• 1:20:32
  He's been out there, right? Yes.
• 1:20:34
  Now can you get up, please, Sir, and come here and put.
• 1:20:38
  I want you to put an X where you approximately saw the body.
• 1:20:42
  A red X. Is this a scale here?
• 1:20:46
  Yeah, it's a one mile squares. This would be a wild guess, Sir.
• 1:20:51
  Just make a mark if you can, please.
• 1:20:53
  This is 82nd here. Yes, Sir.
• 1:20:56
  Thank you. Witness resumes.
• 1:20:58
  Chair, do you have an interest in the military?
• 1:21:00
  Are you one of those military freaks that like to sneak up on
• 1:21:04
  people in the dark or something? Why would he ask that?
• 1:21:10
  Oh my gosh, I'm. Making friends there.
• 1:21:15
  Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. OK, where did I go?
• 1:21:22
  OK, No. Are you testifying here today
• 1:21:26
  that you can't sit in your own backyard of your own house, of
• 1:21:30
  your mother's home right here in Terrace Hills and watch all the
• 1:21:33
  flares A fellow could desire to watch?
• 1:21:37
  Yes. You're saying you can't do that?
• 1:21:40
  That is correct. OK.
• 1:21:41
  Now, did you stop at 82nd and Rogers Lane?
• 1:21:44
  Sir, I stopped just beyond 82nd and Rogers Lane.
• 1:21:49
  You were going to go ahead and stop.
• 1:21:52
  As I understand from your testimony, you were going to go
• 1:21:55
  ahead and stop there in the vicinity because you were going
• 1:21:59
  very slowly when you saw something off in your words
• 1:22:01
  peripheral vision, is that correct?
• 1:22:04
  Yes. OK.
• 1:22:06
  Was it easy and clearly seen? Could you see it easy and
• 1:22:10
  clearly? No.
• 1:22:12
  So from your light shooting down the road, it wouldn't be easy to
• 1:22:15
  be seen, is that correct? If a Perkinson was looking in
• 1:22:19
  the ditches, I'm sure they would have noticed it.
• 1:22:22
  But the answer to your question is yes, that's what I want to
• 1:22:26
  do, is just answer them. Did you drive on by the body?
• 1:22:30
  I would say yes, just a little bit.
• 1:22:33
  How much did you go on by? I'd say maybe 10 yards.
• 1:22:37
  Where were you going to stop? Were you going to stop at?
• 1:22:42
  Where were you going to stop at? I was rolling to a stop.
• 1:22:45
  Then were you going to just, were you going to stop just
• 1:22:50
  about where you did stop then? I really hadn't thought about
• 1:22:54
  where I was going to stop. I was just rolling on out there.
• 1:22:57
  Like I say, I'd stop about 10 or 20 yards past there.
• 1:23:01
  Oh, you would have stopped 20 or 30 yards past where you ended up
• 1:23:05
  stopping if you hadn't seen the body.
• 1:23:08
  I didn't say 20 or 30. OK, Well, what I'm asking you,
• 1:23:13
  Sir, did you end up stopping when you finally came to a stop
• 1:23:17
  out there? You testified you finally
• 1:23:19
  stopped? At some point in time, Yes.
• 1:23:23
  Would that have been whereabouts you were going to stop at?
• 1:23:27
  No. I had intended to go on.
• 1:23:29
  Past How far past? I don't know.
• 1:23:32
  Did you stop? Pretty much.
• 1:23:34
  You didn't get very far past this Red X where She was right.
• 1:23:38
  You stopped? No.
• 1:23:39
  Once I thought I might have seen a body, I jammed on my brakes
• 1:23:42
  and backed up. So you are almost parallel with
• 1:23:45
  her when you came to a stop, right?
• 1:23:48
  I'd say I was probably 1015, Sir.
• 1:23:51
  You remember the preliminary hearing, don't you?
• 1:23:53
  Yes. You remember this question where
• 1:23:56
  you were going to stop? Do you recall that question on
• 1:23:59
  page 137, Mr. Calvert? You recall that question?
• 1:24:02
  Yes. OK.
• 1:24:04
  You recall your answer about where I stopped?
• 1:24:07
  You recall that answer? You want to see it in black and
• 1:24:09
  white? I trust you, Sir.
• 1:24:12
  Today you've told us something different, have you not?
• 1:24:14
  Yes or no? Yeah.
• 1:24:16
  Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how they're ever going
• 1:24:20
  to believe a fellow that keeps changing his story.
• 1:24:25
  Mr. Calvert. Objection, Your Honor.
• 1:24:27
  That's an improper question by counsel the court.
• 1:24:31
  Improper as to the form only, Mr. Zelps.
• 1:24:35
  Yes, Sir. By Mr. Zelps.
• 1:24:37
  Can you tell us how we're going to be able to know which time
• 1:24:40
  you're telling us the truth? Yes.
• 1:24:43
  How are we going to know which time you're telling us the
• 1:24:45
  truth? Would you explain it for us?
• 1:24:48
  I'm telling the truth both times.
• 1:24:50
  Well, as I understand it, the first time I asked you that
• 1:24:54
  question today, you said no. I planned on rolling down a
• 1:24:57
  little ways further. I didn't plan on stopping there.
• 1:25:00
  I was going to stop somewhere else.
• 1:25:01
  And I asked you the same exact question back in the preliminary
• 1:25:05
  hearing and you said about where I stopped is where I was
• 1:25:08
  planning to stop. Now I can't understand the
• 1:25:12
  difference. That's not the same.
• 1:25:14
  You'd agree with that, wouldn't you?
• 1:25:17
  About allows room for interpretation.
• 1:25:20
  About is in the general vicinity because I was rolling past when
• 1:25:24
  I saw the body. It's obvious I wasn't going to
• 1:25:27
  stop right where the body was. I mean, you didn't turn off your
• 1:25:31
  lights, right? Right.
• 1:25:33
  You're positive about that? Positive.
• 1:25:35
  At no time out there you turned off your lights, is that
• 1:25:38
  correct? At no time on Rogers Lane did I
• 1:25:42
  turn off my lights. At no time on 82nd did you turn
• 1:25:47
  off your lights? Did you turn your lights off
• 1:25:50
  completely off? That is not what I testified to.
• 1:25:54
  Well, you testified you flashed them.
• 1:25:57
  And I want to be sure you never just turn them completely off.
• 1:26:01
  OK, I never did that. Not completely.
• 1:26:05
  That's so weird that he that's a weird question.
• 1:26:08
  What? Why is that?
• 1:26:10
  That's I'm wearing that too. Something you turn all the way
• 1:26:17
  off to dump a body, right? Maybe he's ready to catch him up
• 1:26:21
  in that story and get him the same family.
• 1:26:26
  Yeah, he's just, he's not very good at it.
• 1:26:30
  How far? Can you remind me how far the
• 1:26:32
  body was from the road or what did that look like?
• 1:26:37
  So yeah, it was just a, it's a, it's a major road and a busy Rd.
• 1:26:45
  And she was, I think maybe 10 or 15 feet from the from the curb
• 1:26:52
  on. The edge, OK.
• 1:26:54
  Yeah, just out in in a field on a busy St.
• 1:27:02
  OK. Now you testified earlier that
• 1:27:05
  you had a Volkswagen, is that correct?
• 1:27:07
  That's correct. And what year was that
• 1:27:10
  Volkswagen 1970? And what color was that
• 1:27:13
  Volkswagen Beige? Did it have Gray primer spots on
• 1:27:18
  it at the time? No, had no Gray on it at all.
• 1:27:22
  Not at all. Not at all.
• 1:27:24
  Had it have some in the past underneath the paint that is on
• 1:27:28
  the car now, there's some Gray primer.
• 1:27:31
  That's what I mean. It had Gray primer on it.
• 1:27:33
  And then you got it painted eventually, right?
• 1:27:36
  In Georgia? Yes, In Georgia.
• 1:27:40
  I don't know. How long did you drive around
• 1:27:42
  town with those Gray spots on it?
• 1:27:43
  Anytime. I never drove it with any Gray
• 1:27:46
  spots on it. OK, Now all the seats weren't in
• 1:27:49
  the car, right? Right.
• 1:27:51
  And so the right passenger seat was taken out, right?
• 1:27:54
  That's correct. Make it pretty convenient for
• 1:27:57
  putting things in there, didn't it?
• 1:27:59
  Yes. Make it pretty convenient for
• 1:28:02
  taking things out of there, didn't it?
• 1:28:04
  Yes, make something perfect. It would be perfect for carrying
• 1:28:08
  something around, wouldn't it? Yes.
• 1:28:11
  Do you know what time you talk to the police?
• 1:28:14
  Which time? First time.
• 1:28:17
  I'd say it was around 5:00 till 99 o'clock.
• 1:28:20
  Something like that. OK.
• 1:28:22
  Is that the dispatcher you're referring to?
• 1:28:25
  Yes, I'm talking about a police officer out there at the scene.
• 1:28:29
  Do you recall what time that would have been?
• 1:28:33
  I'd say it was around 9:15 or so.
• 1:28:36
  Did the police want you to know what you were doing?
• 1:28:40
  Did the police want to know what you were doing?
• 1:28:42
  No, They never wanted. They just sat you in a car and
• 1:28:46
  that was it. Yes.
• 1:28:48
  You didn't just get out of the car and say the heck with this,
• 1:28:51
  I'm walking home. I could have.
• 1:28:54
  Did you do it, Sir? No.
• 1:28:56
  Now, I understand. You've testified today to the
• 1:28:59
  fact that you saw the body at 8:50.
• 1:29:01
  Is that correct? No.
• 1:29:03
  OK. Tell us at what time I thought
• 1:29:06
  that. I think I wrote that down.
• 1:29:08
  Excuse me, 855. Is that correct?
• 1:29:10
  Yes. Have you ever testified at any
• 1:29:13
  other time that you saw the body at a different time or told
• 1:29:17
  anybody that? Not that I recall.
• 1:29:21
  Not that you recall. Have you ever told anybody that
• 1:29:23
  the body was discovered at 9:00? I don't know, Sir.
• 1:29:28
  Let me ask you this. Does your memory get better with
• 1:29:31
  age or get worse with age? Don't look around for help.
• 1:29:35
  I'm asking the questions. Doesn't sound relevant.
• 1:29:39
  But I don't know that either. I've not subjected myself to any
• 1:29:44
  memory test to object to objectively.
• 1:29:47
  Sir, do you recall the question asked on page 155?
• 1:29:51
  Mr. Calvert, Preliminary hearing.
• 1:29:53
  Do you recall this question? Question.
• 1:29:55
  The body was discovered. At what time, Sir?
• 1:29:58
  Answer 9. Do you recall making that
• 1:30:02
  statement? No, but I don't doubt that I
• 1:30:05
  did. OK.
• 1:30:06
  I'm kind of getting the impression you just kind of say
• 1:30:09
  things. It's Willy nilly.
• 1:30:10
  I don't care. A man's life is on trial.
• 1:30:13
  I'll just say whatever I want to.
• 1:30:15
  Mr. Calvert. Your Honor, all object to
• 1:30:17
  counsel's improper sidebar comments.
• 1:30:20
  The court. Sustained by Mr. Zelps.
• 1:30:23
  You took your brother to church that evening, is that correct?
• 1:30:26
  Yes, I did. I've been watching you on
• 1:30:29
  television, too. You used to have a beard, didn't
• 1:30:32
  you? Yes, I did.
• 1:30:34
  You've changed your appearance since the last time you were in
• 1:30:36
  court. Is that correct?
• 1:30:38
  It's summertime. I'm now cooler.
• 1:30:41
  Yes. Hey.
• 1:30:44
  Is that the church that he took his brother to?
• 1:30:50
  You know what I don't know? Maybe.
• 1:30:53
  You took your brother to church that evening, is that correct?
• 1:30:55
  Yes, I did, but that's still the family member in that circle.
• 1:31:04
  Interesting, man, if you're out there, talk to me.
• 1:31:17
  I really want to know. OK, so maybe David did go to
• 1:31:24
  church at Reverend Ronnie Miller's church.
• 1:31:30
  That would be interesting. So then that would make the
• 1:31:34
  connection even stronger. Yes, ma'am.
• 1:31:43
  OK, good catch. OK, you've changed your
• 1:31:47
  appearance since the last time you were in court, is that
• 1:31:49
  correct? It's summertime and I'm cool and
• 1:31:52
  I'm now cooler. Yes.
• 1:31:54
  OK, back in October 1st, it was pretty warm back then too.
• 1:31:58
  Not really, right? I wouldn't say.
• 1:32:01
  So it is now. I mean, it's 90° today, but OK.
• 1:32:05
  Yeah, true, you wouldn't. It was short sleeve weather,
• 1:32:09
  wasn't it? October 1st that evening.
• 1:32:11
  Nice evening. You were going to watch those
• 1:32:13
  flares. I know.
• 1:32:15
  I had a long sleeve shirt. Well, you had a beard then too,
• 1:32:18
  right? Yes.
• 1:32:20
  Also notice that you said you was a Sunday School teacher, is
• 1:32:24
  that correct? At one time, yes.
• 1:32:27
  Don't teach Sunday School anymore?
• 1:32:29
  No. Were you teaching Sunday school
• 1:32:32
  back on October 1st, 1986? No.
• 1:32:36
  You was drinking and driving though, weren't you?
• 1:32:40
  I was drinking a beer and I was driving my car.
• 1:32:42
  Yes. Drinking and driving, isn't it
• 1:32:45
  any way you look at it, Right. Yes.
• 1:32:48
  Don't have much respect for the law, do you?
• 1:32:51
  Yes, I do. What did you do at the church
• 1:32:54
  when you. I'm sorry, What time did you
• 1:32:56
  take your brother to church? I left the house at 6:20.
• 1:33:01
  I arrived at 1003 and a half. I at 6:44.
• 1:33:07
  So I would say I got him there just about on time at 6:30.
• 1:33:15
  What did you do at the church? Went inside.
• 1:33:17
  Maynard made arrangements before my brother to get a ride home.
• 1:33:23
  OK, OK. Can you tell us why you made
• 1:33:27
  arrangements for somebody to pick him up rather than you
• 1:33:30
  coming back and picking your little brother up?
• 1:33:34
  Because I had things I had to do.
• 1:33:37
  What time was church going to let out for him that evening?
• 1:33:40
  730 Now, after you left him out for church and you went in and
• 1:33:47
  made arrangements for somebody to take him home or whatever you
• 1:33:50
  did, who did you make those arrangements with?
• 1:33:55
  Byron Brown. Pardon me?
• 1:33:59
  Byron Brown? Byron Brown.
• 1:34:01
  And who's Byron Brown? He's a member of the youth group
• 1:34:05
  there at church. How old a fellow is he?
• 1:34:08
  I think he's 16 or 17 now. How old was he then?
• 1:34:13
  15 or 16? Well, he had just graduated from
• 1:34:16
  high school. So how old was your brother?
• 1:34:19
  12, And it's after this time that you went to the church that
• 1:34:24
  you went? That doesn't make sense.
• 1:34:29
  His. I don't think his brother was 12
• 1:34:31
  back then. Because I thought his brother
• 1:34:40
  was the one driving the car over there.
• 1:34:43
  Unless his, unless Robert drove him there and then would hang
• 1:34:48
  out. Why would he hang out at my
• 1:34:50
  grandma's house with two young kids?
• 1:34:58
  I'm trying to think. So he's saying his brother's 12
• 1:35:00
  years old at that time. His brother, if that's the one
• 1:35:05
  I'm thinking of, David, he had been dating my cousin at that
• 1:35:11
  time. And I remember David coming over
• 1:35:16
  to the house a lot at my grandma's house because my
• 1:35:18
  cousin lived with my grandma. And I remember that car being
• 1:35:23
  parked in front of the house when he would be there.
• 1:35:29
  So it would make sense for him to drop him off, but it wouldn't
• 1:35:33
  make sense for the car to sit there for prolonged periods of
• 1:35:37
  time to where I had the opportunity to mess around in
• 1:35:40
  it, right. I don't know if he has two
• 1:35:46
  brothers or not. I don't know.
• 1:35:53
  This is from 7 year old memory. So I, I don't know.
• 1:35:58
  OK, I think we're just going to do this last page and then we're
• 1:36:03
  going to call it quits because I'm I'm getting tired and.
• 1:36:11
  I'm happy to help you if you need it, but you're good.
• 1:36:14
  Yeah, no, I've been running a lot.
• 1:36:18
  Well, maybe we could go 2 hours. Maybe you could read after this
• 1:36:24
  because I've been cutting them short about one hour, hour and a
• 1:36:28
  half lately. Yeah, no, whatever you need to
• 1:36:30
  do. OK, so maybe I'll have you read
• 1:36:32
  after this. OK, so and it's after this time
• 1:36:36
  that you went to church, that you went out on the east side of
• 1:36:40
  town, at least you admit to, to Shelter Creek.
• 1:36:43
  Is that correct? Eventually, yes.
• 1:36:45
  And what did you do out there at Shelter Creek?
• 1:36:48
  Knocked on the door of a home formerly known owned by Joe
• 1:36:52
  Warner. OK.
• 1:36:54
  And was there anybody at home? No one came to the door.
• 1:36:58
  OK. And didn't you know that no one
• 1:37:01
  had lived there for some time? No.
• 1:37:05
  OK. Had you been to that home
• 1:37:06
  previously? Before that?
• 1:37:08
  Yes. Anybody at home there?
• 1:37:10
  No. OK.
• 1:37:12
  So that would have been prior to October 1st.
• 1:37:14
  You had gone out there once before, right?
• 1:37:17
  Yes. And no one was home, right?
• 1:37:20
  Yes. And then you went back on
• 1:37:22
  October 1st, is that correct? That's correct.
• 1:37:25
  And you didn't know that no one lived there, is that correct?
• 1:37:29
  That's correct. OK.
• 1:37:30
  Go ahead, Nancy. OK.
• 1:37:33
  I want to direct your attention to the preliminary hearing, page
• 1:37:36
  159, line 8. Anybody home then?
• 1:37:40
  No, the person that lived across the street was home.
• 1:37:43
  He told me that no one lived there in six months.
• 1:37:45
  Recall making that statement? I recall, but it wasn't speaking
• 1:37:50
  about October 1st. Sir, I understand.
• 1:37:53
  I'm just asking you. I said question how many times?
• 1:38:01
  Question I asked you today. Question.
• 1:38:04
  Anybody home then? No.
• 1:38:06
  The person that lived across the street was home.
• 1:38:08
  He told me that no one lived there in six months.
• 1:38:11
  Today, in front of these people, this jury.
• 1:38:14
  Mr. Calvert, Your Honor, could we approach the bench, the
• 1:38:17
  court? Yes, Sir.
• 1:38:18
  Mr. Calvert, I have an objection.
• 1:38:21
  Council is reading partial answers with results.
• 1:38:24
  Well, I'll read the whole thing, Judge.
• 1:38:26
  It doesn't make any difference. I was just trying to save time.
• 1:38:31
  No, the person that lived across the street was home.
• 1:38:33
  He told me no one had lived there in six months.
• 1:38:36
  Ed Trim told me later somebody was living there.
• 1:38:39
  So I went back by. Mr. Zeltz, Sir, I'm asking you
• 1:38:43
  today in front of this jury. The question was, did you know
• 1:38:47
  no one lived there? And you said no to them.
• 1:38:51
  You did know that no one lived there, didn't you?
• 1:38:54
  No, I didn't. Ed Trim told me someone that
• 1:38:57
  did. So I learned that no one had,
• 1:39:01
  but I heard someone did that. Convicted felon.
• 1:39:05
  I guess you agree with him now and believe him, I guess.
• 1:39:08
  Right. Ed Trim is not a convicted
• 1:39:11
  felon. Oh, he's not the convicted
• 1:39:13
  felon. Who is it?
• 1:39:15
  Truman Petty. Truman Petty?
• 1:39:17
  Yes. OK, So he went out there knowing
• 1:39:21
  that no one lived there anyhow. Is that right?
• 1:39:24
  That is correct. What's the excuse you give now?
• 1:39:28
  And you went out there to the Warner house, right?
• 1:39:30
  I went out to the Warner House. And then where did you go after
• 1:39:34
  that? From there?
• 1:39:35
  I went down to the ice dock at 2nd and Dearborn. 2nd and
• 1:39:39
  Dearborn. And that's the same 2nd St. that
• 1:39:42
  runs right into I-44. That takes you out there, right?
• 1:39:45
  To the Sandpiper, right? Yes.
• 1:39:48
  And you bought some beer there, right?
• 1:39:50
  Yes. How many beers did you buy?
• 1:39:52
  2 And when did you drink them? Well, I opened one just before,
• 1:39:59
  I think just before I arrived at 1716 Cache Road.
• 1:40:02
  And how much did you drink out of that?
• 1:40:04
  I would say maybe 1/3 or a fourth, maybe not even that
• 1:40:07
  much. And what time was it that you
• 1:40:10
  arrived there? About 7:45, eight o'clock.
• 1:40:14
  So it's almost an hour. Or a little bit more than an
• 1:40:17
  hour. But no, you don't have any
• 1:40:20
  witness to be able to say where you were between 6:30 when you
• 1:40:24
  let your broth or when you showed up over here at 1716
• 1:40:29
  Cache Rd. Is that correct?
• 1:40:31
  Well, the person at the ice dock, can you produce them or
• 1:40:34
  tell us his name? Generally, I buy beer and I
• 1:40:38
  don't ask the person the name. What does I mean?
• 1:40:41
  Have you gone back and tried to get anybody to say, hey, do you
• 1:40:44
  Remember Me being here? Not at the ice dock?
• 1:40:48
  So would you agree with me, Sir, that you can't?
• 1:40:51
  There's nobody out here in existence that you can produce
• 1:40:54
  to these ladies and gentlemen to verify where you were from 6:30
• 1:40:58
  until a little after 8 when you shut up a cache Rd. from 30.
• 1:41:03
  That's what time you said you let your little brother off the
• 1:41:06
  church, right? There's done.
• 1:41:09
  I could prove. There's no one that I could
• 1:41:11
  prove. Yes, Sir.
• 1:41:14
  What did you do with that fear that you hadn't finished?
• 1:41:17
  Left it on the floorboard. OK, Now. 16 Dash Rd.
• 1:41:23
  Ed trip. OK.
• 1:41:24
  And you didn't carry it in the store with you, did you?
• 1:41:28
  I didn't go in your. Internet's glitching.
• 1:41:34
  Oh. I'm the only one hearing that.
• 1:41:41
  Interesting. Let's see your your pictures
• 1:41:47
  gone. I don't know if you intended to
• 1:41:49
  do that or not. So I'm looking on my phone and
• 1:41:55
  my pictures here. I'm looking on my computer.
• 1:41:57
  My picture is gone. Yeah, I can't see you at all.
• 1:42:03
  OK, Tinny. Oh, OK, then we're good.
• 1:42:10
  Nobody wants to listen to that. No, it's good.
• 1:42:13
  Thank you for trying. OK, I'll just finish that up
• 1:42:20
  real quick and then we will. Then we'll say goodnight.
• 1:42:24
  OK, See, let's see. Left it in the floorboard.
• 1:42:28
  OK. Now, who was there at 1716 Cash
• 1:42:32
  Rd. Ed trim.
• 1:42:33
  OK. And you didn't carry it into the
• 1:42:35
  store, did you? I didn't go in.
• 1:42:38
  OK, Now let's see. I noticed, of course, looking
• 1:42:41
  through the evidence in this case and also listening to him
• 1:42:44
  testify, I mean listening to him ask you these questions while
• 1:42:49
  you were testifying that you had a sleeping bag in that car, is
• 1:42:52
  that correct? That's correct.
• 1:42:55
  You had a raincoat in that car, is that correct?
• 1:42:58
  That's correct. And you had a pillow in that
• 1:43:01
  rain in that a pillow in that car, is that correct?
• 1:43:06
  Yes, they were all three in the trunk.
• 1:43:10
  How long were you there? How long are you?
• 1:43:12
  Were you there? To you?
• 1:43:15
  You say they were in the trunk. We don't.
• 1:43:18
  That's what you're testifying to.
• 1:43:22
  Have you got anybody to say they were in the trunk out there that
• 1:43:26
  day? No.
• 1:43:29
  OK. How long were you at 1716 Cash
• 1:43:33
  Rd. before you left? And he says, I'd say it was at
• 1:43:37
  least 45 minutes, maybe an hour. OK, so we are going to pick back
• 1:43:43
  up because we've still got, I mean, we're on page 64 and we've
• 1:43:48
  got 118 pages. And I think that this is all
• 1:43:52
  Robert Taylor's testimony. So, so I think we're going to
• 1:43:59
  call it. But thank you everybody for
• 1:44:01
  joining me. Thank you, Nancy, for joining me
• 1:44:04
  and hanging out with me. I I like it much better when
• 1:44:08
  somebody's hanging out with me. Thanks for having me.
• 1:44:13
  OK, well, thank you everybody, and I hope that you have a
• 1:44:15
  blessed evening and on the replay crew, whenever you're
• 1:44:20
  seeing this, I hope that you're well and everybody just go out
• 1:44:23
  and do something good to change the world for the better.
• 1:44:26
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• 1:44:32
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• 1:44:36
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