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Episode 03: Psychedelic Narcissists - Why taking a chainsaw to the psyche requires more than good intentions · psychophobia* podcast

• 0:05
  What if the institutions designed to help us understand the
• 0:09
  human psyche are
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: actually afraid of them?
• 0:12
  Hosted by Dr.
• 0:13
  Michael Montgomery,
• 0:15
  this podcast explores the uncomfortable questions.
• 0:18
  Together we'll examine how the mental health systems meant to
• 0:21
  heal us instead
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: perpetuate cycles of dependency.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Psychophobia Podcast.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, Noah.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, Michael.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Very good to see you.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: You as well.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a little while since we last touched base.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe like a year.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Is it that long?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_01: In person.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very excited to tell you that our paper is coming out.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Metamodernism and psychedelics, the good, the bad and the ugly.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: So excited.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  So actually they luckily changed to digital format and they
• 1:20
  sent me the article
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: without your name.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: So somewhere in between,
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: when you're back and forward making amendments through the peer reviewer.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Or somewhere along the line, your name got dropped off.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: So luckily it's digital.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: They're very apologetic and they're putting it back in.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: So literally it has been published.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: They're just tweaking it and then they're going to redo it.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very excited about that.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for taking care of that.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: So we can sort of riff on that a little bit, but...
• 1:58
  I'm very honored and delighted that you've taken the risk of
• 2:03
  coming on and having a
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  SPEAKER_02: chat on the Psychophobia podcast.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, my pleasure.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: You are one of the people I really,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: really respect on a personal level,
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  SPEAKER_02: but on a professional level in the work that you did.
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  SPEAKER_02: The article highlights kind of our joint experience.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: which was my investigative journalist attempt.
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  I call it gonzo journalism,
• 2:35
  where you sort of insert yourself in the story.
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  So I embarked on some ketamine-assisted therapy using an online
• 2:44
  company,
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  and that's how we met.
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  SPEAKER_02: And for people who don't know yet,
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  the article is really an academic piece talking about that
• 2:54
  experience and you as
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: the guide.
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  And I'm incredibly grateful to you because I felt that you saw
• 3:02
  me and we connected
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  and I think you really were a guide and you really enriched my
• 3:11
  whole experience
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  SPEAKER_02: during that period.
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  SPEAKER_02: We can talk about Ketamine a little bit,
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: but I thought I'd start off and just ask,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's been a while,
• 3:21
  where are you at at the minute with your own work and what's
• 3:23
  going on for you?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  so since I sort of closed out the chapter of working for the
• 3:32
  company that I was
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  SPEAKER_01: with before when I met you,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's been about a year.
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  SPEAKER_01: And during the past year,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been focused on just honing my work and who I work with,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: how I do it,
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  and basically creating a new path for myself at the same time
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  as embarking on
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  SPEAKER_01: helping and working with my wife and our music because we have kind of a
• 4:00
  transformational music project that we have been creating for
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  the past while.
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  SPEAKER_01: Over the past year,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's been music,
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  SPEAKER_01: transformational experiences and journeys,
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  SPEAKER_01: and also my coaching work that I do one to one with folks.
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  And also that involves creating educational materials about
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  inner work and these
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  SPEAKER_01: realms that we play in.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been a good year.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's been good to actually be moving into more independence,
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  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
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  SPEAKER_01: around how I do this,
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  because it was important to get to work with so many people
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  through the ketamine
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  SPEAKER_01: assisted therapy work.
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  SPEAKER_01: But also there are limitations there that,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: we've discussed in the past and we can discuss here today,
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  SPEAKER_01: of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
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  it's been a year of branching out into the directions that were
• 4:56
  already there,
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  SPEAKER_01: but just fleshing them out more.
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  SPEAKER_02: So let's give a bit of time at some point to talk about the music.
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm very intrigued by that.
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  SPEAKER_02: But let's maybe start broadly.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: We are in a time where psychedelics are hot.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's a hot topic.
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  In my work,
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  I have had to support quite a few people who have had extremely
• 5:31
  bad experiences.
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  SPEAKER_02: When psychedelics,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  it's fueled what you might call a psychotic break or at the
• 5:42
  very least a loss of
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  SPEAKER_02: connection with consensual reality for a period.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I learned a lot about it from that area.
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  SPEAKER_02: And then I had had my own experience.
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  And then I have the experience of just listening to other
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  people who perhaps have
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  SPEAKER_02: had very good experiences and perhaps life changing experiences.
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  But for people who don't know,
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  how would you describe what's happening in this current wave?
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  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: for a long time,
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  people have suffered with the maladies of this culture that we
• 6:23
  find ourselves in
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  SPEAKER_01: and the built up traumas and somatic tone.
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  SPEAKER_01: And like, it's hard to be a person these days.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so as psychedelics have come into the marketplace,
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  SPEAKER_01: there was,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: quite naturally a desire for them to be a panacea,
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  SPEAKER_01: for them to be this all-encompassing
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  salve for all the maladies that we have for all the issues and
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  of course they can't
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  do that but it's very convenient for those who are in business
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  to sell them like
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  that and so there's been a lot of corners cut and expediency
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  taken to market
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  SPEAKER_01: psychedelics as this thing that's going to help with everything and as a
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  I suppose,
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  former direct practitioner and now sort of working more on the
• 7:24
  integration side.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am like you seeing issues around how people are
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: really like framing what it is that they're about.
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  SPEAKER_01: What do they do?
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  SPEAKER_01: Where do we go?
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  How do we approach them in a way that is actually integral and
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  ethically correct in
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  SPEAKER_01: the context of kind of the exact opposite?
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's like there's a lot of headwinds that we face as we...
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  As we try to educate or help or interact with these tools or
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  these medicines in a
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  SPEAKER_01: way that actually leads to help and not harm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's just a lot more complicated than it's made out to be.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's come back to the complexity.
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  SPEAKER_02: So to give a little bit of context,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: in the 50s and 60s,
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  SPEAKER_02: probably the most famous psychedelic was really LSD.
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  Just down the road from me,
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  you had Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert,
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  who became Ram Dass.
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  Up the road from me,
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  you had the Concord prison experiment where they were offering
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  LSD.
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  There was a lot of excitement and then it kind of seeped into
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  the public sphere.
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  SPEAKER_02: So originally it was legal.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, Timothy Leary, he's somebody I can't get out of my life.
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  SPEAKER_02: He just follows me around like a shadow.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I recently got his book on personality.
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  I mean,
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  he was an incredibly important psychologist of his own right
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  before he got into this.
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  SPEAKER_02: Then LSD was made illegal.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think the CIA got,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: they did their experiments with it,
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  SPEAKER_02: all quite well documented,
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  SPEAKER_02: and then it was made illegal.
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  And with that,
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  a sort of embargo on research for many,
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  many,
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  many decades.
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  SPEAKER_02: It seems to be not necessarily LSD,
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  SPEAKER_02: but psilocybin,
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  SPEAKER_02: ketamine,
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  SPEAKER_02: they seem to be coming back in a much bigger way.
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  SPEAKER_02: As you alluded to,
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  SPEAKER_02: there are companies who are,
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  SPEAKER_02: well,
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  SPEAKER_02: if you just take ketamine,
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  providing ketamine online therapy where ketamine is delivered
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  to the house.
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  SPEAKER_02: What would you say the relationship is between now and then,
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  SPEAKER_02: do you think,
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  SPEAKER_02: in terms of psychedelics?
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  I mean,
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  how would you position that for people who doesn't know
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  anything about it?
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  SPEAKER_01: In some ways, it's still the Wild West.
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  SPEAKER_01: Back then, there was probably less understanding of...
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  somatically what's going on with trauma and the amount of
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  sympathetic load that
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  we're all carrying around the amount of allostatic load and i
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  think there was more
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  of just like let's throw things at the wall and let's try
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  things and that i don't
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  SPEAKER_01: think was actually a good thing in terms of how lsd
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  SPEAKER_01: LSD in particular was not integrated into the culture well.
• 10:38
  There was an opportunity for it to be through the work of
• 10:42
  somebody like Stan Groff,
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  SPEAKER_01: but there was also a lot of
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, tomfoolery just around how it was being used generally.
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  SPEAKER_01: So an opportunity was missed.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then there was this embargo on research.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so it kind of went underground.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then for whatever reason,
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  SPEAKER_01: we've had this explosion of interest again,
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  SPEAKER_01: probably because of how I was talking about before,
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: just the absolute need,
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: the absolute need.
• 11:12
  failure of the psychiatric tools and medicines and approaches
• 11:16
  and all this kind of thing.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so now, why is now different?
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the internet has certainly changed our interaction.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's more people who are just finding their own way,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: trying to help each other do harm reduction and that kind of thing.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also the amount of commercialization and
• 11:38
  just like scale that capitalism is taking over the way that we
• 11:42
  interact with these things.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's different.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't necessarily know if it's better.
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  And I wish that I could come on a podcast like yours and be
• 11:52
  like,
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  it's amazing.
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  SPEAKER_01: The dawn of psychedelics is here,
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  SPEAKER_01: the new dawn,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we should all like rejoice and be excited about it.
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  But I just find myself whenever I'm in conversations with
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  people like yourself or
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: even the more general public or clients,
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  SPEAKER_01: I have to come to it from this perspective.
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  very slow and almost skeptical place even though i see the
• 12:18
  great possibility in the
• 12:20
  boon of using the these tools in specific ways there's also so
• 12:25
  much risk and
• 12:26
  there's also just a need for more reverence and slowness and
• 12:31
  really not hype
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_02: so my big mantra on all drugs,
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  SPEAKER_02: psychiatric and psychedelics,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: recreational,
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  SPEAKER_02: is we don't respect them.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think all medicine needs to be treated with a degree of respect.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think when you do so, it makes a huge difference.
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  SPEAKER_02: But,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: if you take a prescriber,
• 12:59
  you'll have a prescriber who might prescribe responsibly and
• 13:02
  then you'll have
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: another one who thinks it's M&Ms.
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  SPEAKER_02: Which means that, first of all, they haven't tried it.
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  SPEAKER_02: I was very struck by my online experience was,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: and we can talk about that,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: was generally very positive.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I was aghast to realize the prescriber had never tried ketamine.
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  So we're talking with a degree of authority about something
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  they've never tried.
• 13:29
  In the same way,
• 13:29
  I'm against psychiatrists prescribing drugs they've never
• 13:36
  tried.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Why couldn't you try?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Is it harmful?
• 13:41
  if it's not harmful why don't you try it and also particularly
• 13:45
  in polypharmacy when
• 13:47
  they prescribe many drugs I used to work with a psychiatrist
• 13:50
  who asked his interns
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: to try the meds
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 13:56
  they take one of these anti-psychotic meds and they'll be on
• 13:58
  their hands and knees,
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: That is engendered respect.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:04
  Whereas you're giving people these doses and you just don't
• 14:07
  understand the impact.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: But jumping back, you said something interesting about somatic.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: You used a word I didn't know with it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: You're talking about somatic and something about load.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, allostatic load.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Expand that to me.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:22
  So the allostatic load is just the concept of how much stress
• 14:26
  do we have at a given
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: time as a result of internal and external factors.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: So whether it be pollution,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: the news cycle,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: stuff going on in our family or at work,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: or it's the combined sympathetic
• 14:47
  tone that we have in our nervous system as a result of trauma
• 14:51
  or even epigenetics
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: or what have you.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Alice Diaclode is just like, how much are we carrying at a given time?
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  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for explaining that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's fascinating because when I look at,
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: we could segment the different people,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: but when I talk to people,
• 15:09
  the power people who maybe are in the corporate world and they
• 15:13
  spend $20,000 and go
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: to Mexico and they do,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: you get the immediate impression that the medicine,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: as you call it,
• 15:21
  cuts right through their egoic sense of self to something more
• 15:27
  perhaps tender or
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: real or lived.
• 15:31
  I heard one recently where someone just described their
• 15:35
  experience as they were so tired and
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: But it's,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: that load that you described,
• 15:40
  they weren't even aware that they were carrying it until they
• 15:44
  had the medicine and
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: then it sort of blew them open.
• 15:47
  The other word that you use that I think is worth the whole
• 15:50
  podcast on is integration.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me, how would you explain that to someone?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh God.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: I never thought it was going to be easy coming on, right?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just... Yeah, let me gather my thoughts.
• 16:09
  Well,
• 16:09
  the thing is,
• 16:11
  for people who are tuning in,
• 16:13
  I trust you in this space.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't say that lightly.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I...
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: no disrespect to anyone else.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: There are people I would not trust in this space who are in this space,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: but I would trust you with my life.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's how meaningful our connection was and developing connection.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I take what you say very seriously in this, in this space.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think that you have earned your right to talk about this,
• 16:48
  both in your personal journey and also the experience that you
• 16:51
  have in the space.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd rather hear your version of integration than many other people's.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: That means a lot.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's an honor.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll just give my general sense of what integration is.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: The experience of, let's just take psilocybin.
• 17:14
  The experience of psilocybin is so foreign and alien and
• 17:20
  different to this
• 17:21
  day-to-day consensual reality that you and I are existing in
• 17:25
  and having this
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: conversation within.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's so different that it literally is a different world,
• 17:33
  a completely different world that can't be conceived with the
• 17:37
  mind that we're
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: listening to or speaking with in this conversation.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's so different...
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: then how are we going to move anything...
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: of value back into this world?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: How do we create a bridge so that it's relevant,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: so that it actually helps our day to day experience?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because most of our life,
• 17:59
  99.9% is lived in this mode that we're in right now and not the
• 18:04
  extraordinary or
• 18:05
  terrifying or sublime experience we have when we're in a
• 18:10
  psychedelic moment.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: So integration is
• 18:15
  How will we bridge the gap so that our life here is more calm
• 18:22
  and peaceful,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: ultimately,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: more in service of our true values,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: more loving?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: more enjoyable,
• 18:34
  more generous and benevolent to those who we serve and people
• 18:40
  who are in our life?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: How will we make relevant to all of the stakeholders in our life?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: to our local environment,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: to our land,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: to our communities,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is that we do in that space.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: That to me is integration.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like a big umbrella.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: But then the more nitty gritty is what happened in my experience?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: What did I feel?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: What did it bring up for me that I hadn't considered?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned a person feeling tired.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: You felt tired.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: You felt exhausted.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've had that experience before.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: So what is that showing me?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is that, is that a part of me to use the language of IFS?
• 19:28
  Or is that just truly like I've been completely exhausted and
• 19:32
  running on fumes and
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: adrenaline,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's just so much there to try to make a bridge with
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: between our normal reality and our experience.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And integration is like,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: like Terence McKenna used to say,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: if it's real,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: it can take the pressure.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: So is it real?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: If it's real, it can take the pressure.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: So let me counter that with something.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: I have been in a environment where, um,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: People are taking psychedelics who are terrorists, literally.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: You described something that sounded beautiful and meaningful.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, my experience of them, uh, was
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: they were more of a terrorist after their integration.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: it didn't,
• 20:33
  they were just getting high and it didn't change who they were
• 20:39
  in part of,
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: what sense would you make of that?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because there is this sort of,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: narrative that,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: let's,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: the old days,
• 20:50
  let's put psychedelics in the water because everyone will be
• 20:52
  into peace and love
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: and a hippie.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: That is not, I would like that to say that's the experience.
• 20:58
  So what sense do you make of that in terms of integration or
• 21:01
  what would the...
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: so much has to do with what's the context,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: what's the set and setting,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: what's the intention.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that extends into integration.
• 21:15
  So if you're saying that the people that you knew who are
• 21:18
  terrorists after their
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: integration are even more terrorists,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: then it wasn't a real integration.
• 21:26
  Because to me,
• 21:27
  integration is bound up with values that are pro-community.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And integration means more than, am I better?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is my particular set of needs, desires, wants being amplified?
• 21:46
  Because you can definitely see that in terms of the more
• 21:48
  psychedelic narcissist side of things.
• 21:52
  There's people out there with big podcasts who I would consider
• 21:55
  psychedelic narcissists.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great, I guess.
• 21:58
  Psychedelic narcissists,
• 22:01
  that's going to be the heading,
• 22:02
  I think,
• 22:02
  for the show.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a thing.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so psychedelics do not, yeah, they don't solve anything.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if that's a clip, clip that, take that out of context.
• 22:13
  They don't solve shit because it depends entirely on the
• 22:19
  context and the set of
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: values that they're embedded in.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: They will amplify everything.
• 22:25
  Whatever values you want,
• 22:27
  people have probably heard the term non-specific amplifiers.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's certainly what psilocybin is.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And probably ayahuasca.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: It will...
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Take whatever is there and raise the noise floor on it.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's really dependent on context,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: on values,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: on what we say this is for,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: on how we couch it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: What is this psychedelic experience nested within?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: All of that needs to be worked out before.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And all of that is relevant to the concept of integration.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: So the people I would...
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: we're referring to,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: it was back in Belfast back in the day,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: and they were definitely in a tribal consciousness.
• 23:14
  So it was firmly in that tribal consciousness to the point
• 23:19
  where they would kill
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: the other tribe.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: But what you say is fascinating because there are...
• 23:26
  So our use is basically inferring that it won't give you
• 23:29
  anything that isn't already there.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: It amplifies what's there.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're a stone-cold killer in your heart, it will amplify that?
• 23:40
  Or is there a chance of it breaking through into...
• 23:45
  You know,
• 23:45
  why do some people have...
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: these big experiences.
• 23:49
  In our article,
• 23:50
  I think we both independently came to the figure of one in 10.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: We'll have like a life, you know, huge life changing experience.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: What are you saying?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is it already in them?
• 24:02
  Well,
• 24:02
  it's really hard to know because what's that person who's
• 24:07
  having that sublime experience?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: What's their background?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: What's their context?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: What's their environment?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Who are the people helping to administer, if any?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: What is the energy that they're bringing?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many factors,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: which is what I mean about this being complicated and not just a nice,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: simple fit for solving the world's problems.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: for the people who suffer,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: like what you're speaking to,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: to me is like a kind of psychedelic inflation,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: which is,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: which is very common,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think.
• 24:42
  Why do some people become inflated and other people don't when
• 24:47
  they use psychedelics?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just set and setting that makes a difference or rather setting?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is there some deeper peace?
• 24:56
  And that's that's why preparation and coming to the medicine
• 25:01
  from a supported place
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: and from a very slow place is so important because
• 25:08
  And part of why I eventually had to leave the way that I was
• 25:15
  interacting with the
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: industry before,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: because there was so...
• 25:20
  There's such a lack of real depth of preparation or
• 25:24
  understanding of a patient's
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: background or how they should be prepared for this,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: this experience.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm saying kind of like it's both.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying it's very dependent on the individual.
• 25:38
  It's very dependent on their environment and their background
• 25:41
  and all of these things that
• 25:43
  like to to assume that we know what's going on and we can just
• 25:47
  predict with any
• 25:49
  accuracy what an outcome will be it's kind of naive however
• 25:54
  there are things that
• 25:55
  we can do to make it more reliable as an experience but the
• 26:02
  list of things that we
• 26:02
  need to do and and create the container with it's really like a
• 26:07
  question of how do
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: we create the container
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big task.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's a long list of things.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Don't know if that's making any sense.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's brilliant.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is psychedelic amplification your own term?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: It is now.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like, there's various ways of thinking about amplification.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Jungians talk about...
• 26:29
  amplification in terms of okay there's this thing that's going
• 26:32
  on in your psyche
• 26:33
  how can we like bring it really far up to the surface and
• 26:36
  expand it so people may
• 26:39
  take things uh like symbolic actions to amplify or they'll use
• 26:44
  a piece of art to
• 26:45
  amplify something right but that's not what we're talking about
• 26:47
  we're talking about
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: how whatever happens in the
• 26:53
  experience can be like just a total like zero to 100 of I was
• 27:03
  feeling like I wasn't
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: very satisfied with my career.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm feeling like a polarization between two different modes,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: how I want to move forward in my life.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's just like this, it's out of control.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the amount of chaos now that one experiences in the session is
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: unbelievably strong compared to what was like
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: a day-to-day like ego state and people talk about decompensating.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of along those lines as well.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: So like that,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: so there used to be a t-shirt that said,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 27:38
  don't make any major life decisions for six months after you've
• 27:41
  taken MDMA.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think there was some, some truth in that, but yeah, but.
• 27:47
  I think it's fair to say the people I were talking about,
• 27:49
  it was recreational,
• 27:51
  right?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: It was on the sort of club scene.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you bring in set, set and setting.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: So when using psychedelics therapeutically in an ideal situation,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot of preparation and set up.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think the fact that it always makes me giggle a little bit,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: but you do use the word medicine a lot,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: But to me, when you use medicine, it infers reverence and respect.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: Rather than, oh, let's do a cheeky line in a club or something like that.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is more, there's a sort of some degree of respect.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: ritual and preparation.
• 28:32
  I think in some of the circles,
• 28:35
  there's definitely suggestion to what's going on.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: So the conditions are important.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned the industry and it's a booming industry, both
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: legal and not so legal, but it definitely feels like a moment.
• 29:02
  What is your opinion generally and maybe specifically of how
• 29:07
  well the industry does the setup?
• 29:11
  How well does it prepare people to have an experience that is
• 29:18
  worth integrating?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I would say generally poor, poorly.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, everyone's in a rush.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like our whole life experience is in a rush, mostly.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: I experience feeling rushed often just day to day.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think most people do.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm constantly having to remind myself to slow down.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that we're all in a rush and activated most of the time in a
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: sympathetic state now more than ever creates in the psychedelic space,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: equally a desire to get a result and feel better and get the thing done.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: We want to get something.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: We want to feel better now, which is fair because we're suffering.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: But that is not the correct frame to bring to something so powerful.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever used a chainsaw, Michael?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: I have.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you know how it feels to use a chainsaw.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was really messy.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, chainsaws are dangerous tools.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: They require immense safety protocols and maybe not immense,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: but you have to know what you're doing.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: You have to slow down.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't rush around a chainsaw.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: To mix metaphors,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever ridden a horse?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: I have.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Same deal.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: You take a lot of time.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: You really pay attention to your way of being with a horse.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're definitely not rushing.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're definitely not in an activated state.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're approaching very calmly,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: reverently,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: understanding the power and force that this animal has.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: With psychedelics, we don't do that.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: We just go to them expecting a good result.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because the industry, a lot of it involves making money.
• 31:30
  We're trying to create volume and we're trying to create a
• 31:33
  profit and we're trying
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: to make sure we have a business model.
• 31:37
  But oil and water is how I would characterize the required
• 31:43
  stance that we need to
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: have towards psychedelics,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: towards creating experience worth integrating,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: as you said,
• 31:51
  versus the way that most of us are approaching it just from a
• 31:56
  normal stance.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And to some extent, it's hard to blame people because like this is life.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is where we are.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: but it's just like a radical reset of the board that's required.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: If our relationship with these,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: these tools,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: these beings,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: these medicines,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: these substances will be actually helpful.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
• 32:22
  When I think of substances,
• 32:24
  they,
• 32:25
  the properties that they have as they change time,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: speed it up or slow it down.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think I borrowed this from you actually.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Taking a chainsaw to the psyche.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Was that yours?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: Not sure.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds like something I might say.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds great.
• 32:47
  So I think for some people it can be to take in the chainsaw to
• 32:53
  the psyche but
• 32:54
  you don't want to take a chainsaw to anything unless you're
• 32:57
  perhaps wearing gloves
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: and you've got enough room to accidentally take somebody's leg off.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: So there's something about expectations then.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: I had a really interesting one recently.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: I hope they're not watching.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: They weren't a patient, but I hope they're not watching.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: But basically,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: They were going to ayahuasca circles, whatever you want to call it.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt deeply that they wanted trauma.
• 33:41
  So if you think sort of this grasping and this desire and
• 33:45
  perhaps a little bit of entitlement.
• 33:46
  So there were other people in the group were uncovering a
• 33:53
  long-lost trauma or
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: trauma was coming up from childhood.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt that this person wanted it.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: So they were actually...
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: entering it with the view of it's there and I just need to find it.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that was troublesome.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:15
  But I speak to my own experience of one of the reasons I wanted
• 34:20
  to try the ketamine
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: was because I...
• 34:23
  I've done years of therapy as part of training to be an
• 34:28
  existential psychoanalyst.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: In the UK, that's part and parcel.
• 34:33
  You have to be in analysis,
• 34:34
  sometimes like more than once a week,
• 34:35
  just as part of the course.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I felt there was something not quite...
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: uh, that I couldn't quite get to that didn't have words.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt, um, that the, the ketamine experience released something.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I have friends who said they thought my PTSD had reduced, right?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't ask them for feedback.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: They just said that.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that was kind of my experience.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 35:07
  But I knew there was trauma there because obviously I grew up
• 35:10
  in an armed conflict.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: But for some people,
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: and I say this with the greatest sensitivity and respect,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: there are some people I've met,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: it feels like they're looking to have that trauma experience and they're
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: part of it's kind of nearly performative.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 35:30
  they're in circles where people are having these big
• 35:33
  experiences and they feel
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: that,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: I want to have that too.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I have some sympathy for it, but not if there's nothing there.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's nearly like the desire to,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: somebody said to me,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to do more because,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: and it's like,
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: what is it that you think you're going to actually find in that?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a common theme,
• 36:03
  another common theme around how psychedelics are being
• 36:06
  approached these days.
• 36:08
  Just the desire to be constantly working on something because
• 36:15
  when we're working on
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: something,
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: we feel actually paradoxically,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: we don't have to move forward with our life.
• 36:23
  And to go back to psychedelic narcissism,
• 36:26
  if we have an excuse to be focused on ourselves,
• 36:31
  then and we can just stay in that loop and one of the excuses
• 36:35
  maybe we'll have all
• 36:36
  this trauma or i have to go looking for the trauma because
• 36:39
  there's something in my
• 36:40
  life that's not working i'm feeling yeah like now of course
• 36:43
  with how much therapy
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: language there is in the common parlance like oh yeah i'm feeling so much
• 36:49
  sympathetic activation and like my parts are acting up and
• 36:53
  there must be an
• 36:54
  underlying trauma that i need to go okay and ayahuasca is the
• 36:57
  scalpel that'll go in
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: there and take it out for me
• 37:00
  like okay let's go in there and whether it's not whether it's
• 37:04
  ayahuasca mdma
• 37:05
  anything we can just be chasing the dragon for the experience
• 37:09
  for the meaning for
• 37:11
  the experience of perhaps in the case of ayahuasca or
• 37:14
  psilocybin being spoken to
• 37:16
  being given something from some external place from on high
• 37:21
  having a direct god
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: experience
• 37:23
  It just shows how much meaning that we are lacking in our lives
• 37:28
  and in our
• 37:28
  communities and how our relationship with life and with each
• 37:33
  other is so fraught
• 37:35
  and really hanging by not much of a thread because we're
• 37:39
  seeking so much in the
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: psychedelic experience,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: so much meaning.
• 37:44
  Because to have trauma and to be working on it and letting it
• 37:47
  go is meaningful.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: It gives us something to focus on, right?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 37:56
  The problem is that we're all doing these substances now,
• 38:01
  but we're all just kids.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's no real adult mature container to hold any of it in.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's no tradition.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's no sense of solid...
• 38:16
  elderhood that can teach us or guide us in a set of clear
• 38:22
  values around how to approach things.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a shit show.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot there to unpack.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's interesting, you know, culturally, um,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: That can vary too.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I noticed in some spiritual traditions,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: I noticed in America,
• 38:46
  I noticed that some people in certain spiritual traditions
• 38:50
  really struggle with
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: devotion.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 38:54
  the idea that someone is more spiritually evolved and is
• 38:59
  potentially worthy of a
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: degree of devotion.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: that impacts one's narcissism in a positive way.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: But there is a...
• 39:13
  resistance to and therefore people become very independent
• 39:20
  instead of being interdependent.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: you mentioned the word elders and you came under the heading of a guide,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: which is a lovely term.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is problematic too.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: You also mentioned that what came to mind there was the U2 song.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know who U2 are?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Bono.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: Bono's basically Jesus in Ireland.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: For some people.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: But he did this tune called Running to Stand Still.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Really beautiful.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually about heroin addicts in Dublin.
• 39:59
  You know,
• 40:01
  I made the association between people are running so fast,
• 40:06
  right?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps psychedelics gives them a moment where they can stay still,
• 40:12
  still enough to hear perhaps what they can't hear throughout
• 40:17
  the other noise.
• 40:19
  When I observe some of these very senior people who have these
• 40:24
  experiences,
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: it really does feel like it's cutting through.
• 40:29
  their egoic presentation in the world back to something perhaps
• 40:34
  more tender,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: maybe more childlike,
• 40:36
  more the person that perhaps they really are rather than the
• 40:40
  person that they're
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: kind of projecting into the world.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's actually really kind of basic.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's not complicated.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you see a lot of that yourself?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can, I have seen that.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's, that's what we hope for.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's the,
• 41:01
  those are the stories that get the front page news and what
• 41:06
  shows up in Michael
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Pollan's book and stuff like that,
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's ideal.
• 41:14
  When a person can get in touch with their authentic inner being
• 41:22
  that is not
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: conditioned or less conditioned,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: that is more spontaneous,
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: alive,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: that is playful.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some would call that the soul, capital S self, the original self.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's definitely a possibility.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely a possibility.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: I wish that it was a guarantee.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, it's not.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you said condition.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: The language I would use is there is an aspect of our experience that is
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: unconditioned if we can recognize it.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that you said something really important.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: which is kind of the model I use.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: I use the word transcendental.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a great word, but I'm going to use it for the purposes of this.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: In a lot of these spiritual traditions, there's a foundation of training.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: So you build up, so you have this base, it's like pyramid-like.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: So when one has an experience that perhaps helps us see through ego,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: we have this foundational base so it can hold it.
• 42:41
  What I observe in people who maybe have a shattering experience
• 42:45
  that is not
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: positive,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: like there's shattered through their psyche,
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: they haven't done any of the work at all.
• 42:51
  So the transcendental experience comes down sharply into no
• 42:56
  base and then there's
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: like a fracture.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say...
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: to someone,
• 43:06
  how would you advise them to build a base so that if they do
• 43:11
  have a big experience,
• 43:13
  it is easier to integrate or it can be integrated in a way that
• 43:19
  serves them?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Again, going slow is the first prerequisite.
• 43:25
  So if anyone,
• 43:28
  anytime anyone is asking me for advice or like,
• 43:32
  how might I approach this?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's tough because I'm facing a headwind of culture,
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: which is you will get this result if you just dive in.
• 43:41
  So that's the number one thing is just completely resetting the
• 43:44
  expectations and
• 43:46
  helping a person take their time and relax to just begin to
• 43:51
  build this foundation.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: I remember the first time I took LSD,
• 43:55
  I took two taps and I walked around Montreal and I thought I
• 43:59
  was going to go
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: insane.
• 44:00
  And the only reason I didn't go insane was because I had been
• 44:05
  meditating very
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: steadily that year,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: pretty much every day.
• 44:10
  And I was able to contact this place inside of me where I was
• 44:16
  completely still and
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: sane amidst total chaos,
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: both outside of me and outside.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose, a layer above or outside of that.
• 44:26
  So I would say meditating is very important to begin to find
• 44:30
  that place within
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: where it's just a still point.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's unassailable.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: But just to focus on it in terms of a mental experience is not enough.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: We also have to find our somatic grounding.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the place where I think actually we have more of a headwind.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because for most of us,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: myself included,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: we're so much more in our sympathetic system than we may even realize.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: So to actually fully drop into a parasympathetic state of relaxation,
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: groundedness,
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: relative safety,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: it's pretty rare.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: And for people who have trauma, it may have never happened in their life.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: They've just normalized being in a sympathetic state.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: When I was working with
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: veterans and first responders in the ketamine assisted therapy,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: it felt like,
• 45:25
  and this was an image that resonated with them when I presented
• 45:28
  it to them,
• 45:29
  it felt like there was this ice block in between where they
• 45:32
  were usually operating
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: and their true parasympathetic baseline.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we could not just take that ice block and remove it.
• 45:42
  We had to slowly melt it,
• 45:44
  slowly,
• 45:45
  slowly,
• 45:45
  slowly,
• 45:45
  slowly,
• 45:46
  slowly,
• 45:46
  one session at a time.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where ketamine can shine when it's in the right context,
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: is for the parasympathetic system to begin to
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: be found again under the ice block as it melts, right?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to flip the axis to widen that window of tolerance,
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: some people call it,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: I like window of capacity better,
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 46:08
  So that is another huge prerequisite to any other psychedelic
• 46:14
  or any other
• 46:15
  substance that we're approaching is to be able to find that
• 46:19
  sympathetic space.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that...
• 46:23
  is also i would say a foundation for being able to do that
• 46:26
  meditative work as well
• 46:28
  to find that place in your mind so both the body and the mind
• 46:33
  need to be able to
• 46:33
  find some kind of still point before you start throwing
• 46:38
  yourself into these oceans
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: of cosmic who knows what
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 46:46
  I don't think I had,
• 46:48
  going back a few years,
• 46:49
  I don't think I had an ice block.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: I had barbed wire and machine gun turrets.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: I remember going to an occupational therapist.
• 46:58
  I hurt my shoulder and I went and they said to me,
• 47:01
  when did you do that injury?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: When did you do this injury?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: They were finding all the physical trauma in my body.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: No memory.
• 47:09
  Because when I experienced that trauma,
• 47:12
  you nearly locked it out,
• 47:14
  just kept going.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Just for the record, kids never take two tabs of assets in one go.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: Probably start with a half if you're going to do it.
• 47:24
  I'm not endorsing doing LSD,
• 47:26
  but that must have been crazy,
• 47:28
  your first hit of doing two tabs.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: It was wild.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: You just defined my argument about psychophobia.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: what occurs,
• 47:41
  it's how you relate to what occurs and how people around you
• 47:45
  relate to what occurs.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: So what I'm hearing you saying,
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: correct me if I'm wrong,
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: was it got away from you a little bit,
• 47:52
  but you were able to center yourself and come back to yourself
• 47:56
  and then kind of
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: perhaps observe what was happening rather than it take over.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's exactly what happened.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been meditating.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a significant trauma history.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: So for me,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: I could do that,
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: but it still felt like I was walking a razor's edge and yeah,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: I would,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: I would never advise that or do that.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: if I could go back to my younger self,
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: that was like 15 years ago,
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: go back to my younger self,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: be like,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: yo,
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: If only I could hear this podcast or the things that I'm saying now.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's no need to jump in like that.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: I know all the answers you told.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 48:42
  You know,
• 48:45
  we should quantify,
• 48:46
  you know,
• 48:47
  I've met many people over the decades.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: We've taken LSD and never really came back from it.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's, I would describe it as the mothership.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's not for the faint-hearted.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it's pretty serious.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I like you even more.
• 49:08
  Now it speaks to who you are,
• 49:10
  the fact that you were able to,
• 49:11
  your first acid trip was two tabs.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you mentioned something important.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned stillness.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: I recently,
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to tell you this,
• 49:23
  I recently broke the unofficial world record for sitting in a
• 49:29
  chronic chamber.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: There's a little documentary coming out in that, but... You did?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I did, yeah.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: I was trying to, so there was a lot of urban...
• 49:40
  myth that if you go into these chambers,
• 49:44
  you know,
• 49:44
  no one can do it for more than 45 minutes.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: you can lose it,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: you'll start hallucinating,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: you'll hear the blood running through your body.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to walk the talk in terms of psychophobia.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I went in believing that I would have a lot of these experiences,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: but I wanted to demonstrate that even though I had,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: it didn't matter because it's not what comes up.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's how you deal with it.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I experienced, you know, profound peace and stillness.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I could experience that same peace and stillness in Times Square.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think once you've recognized it,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: within yourself, then
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's always there to be recognized, right?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
• 50:36
  you could go straight to it really quickly in those supportive
• 50:39
  conditions,
• 50:40
  but it's not that you could only experience the stillness in
• 50:45
  those conditions
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: because it's something you're recognizing within yourself.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: So did you have a strong meditation practice prior to that?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you're saying?
• 50:54
  Yeah,
• 50:54
  and I think that's the only reason I didn't go crazy in that
• 50:58
  moment because...
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was on a,
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was on a football field or on a,
• 51:05
  in a big open park in Montreal and everything was collapsing in
• 51:12
  and there were
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: airplanes flying over.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it felt like judgment day or something like jets landing and,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: and everything was just melting.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: And internally I was like, okay, okay.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: Let's find that center that you've been practicing.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we're just going to stay,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: we're just going to stay here,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: stay there while all this insanity is happening because what else?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's no other option unless you want to succumb to this.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: So breath by breath,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: moment by moment,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: we were walking around,
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: which I would also never do again.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was like step by step.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: Next step.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: Still in the center.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: Next, next.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you're talking about time sort of warping.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, there was only, are you connected to this center or not?
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're not, then you're starting to lose the plot.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, um, that I would call that a foundational technique, I suppose.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's a skill to be high.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even like saying being high,
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: but it's a skill to traverse those altered states,
• 52:29
  because on one hand you have a sheer rock wall going up to 30
• 52:35
  kilometers high,
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: and on the other you have a sheer drop down however long,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: and you're just walking this razor's edge.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the technique of being in an altered state of consciousness.
• 52:49
  And there's all of this foundation that you're talking about
• 52:52
  that's required
• 52:54
  That by the way,
• 52:55
  you don't know if it will one day like kind of not be there for
• 53:01
  you.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: I agree that your center will always be there,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: but whether or not you could access it on that particular day,
• 53:09
  I still think that it's very important to bring a lot of
• 53:11
  humility and reverence
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: toward being like,
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm taking this thing that's going to change my consciousness,
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: no matter how practiced I am,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: no matter how strong my connection is to this,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still going to be on that ledge.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just be a friend about that with ourselves.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, cool, we're going in.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe in myself.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: I believe in the foundation that I've created.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: I believe in my connection and my edge walking skills.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: But like,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Still, you don't know.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that fundamental humility to me is just like rule one.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's like beginner's mind in action.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I know we've slightly different cosmologies,
• 53:58
  but I would maybe make sense of that in my own language is
• 54:04
  awareness is always
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: there.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: However,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: we can lose recognition of it and overly focus on what is arising.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm saying, yeah.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you could have a mood, you could be aware of a mood
• 54:25
  But the moment that mood,
• 54:26
  you over-identify with that mood,
• 54:28
  it kind of becomes all of you.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: A bit like the, you know, the sky.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: So there are clouds that come and go,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: but underneath it,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: the blue sky is always there,
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: which I would equate to awareness.
• 54:40
  But the moment I over-identify with the thundercloud,
• 54:44
  I am the thundercloud.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: So even in the worst...
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: potentially you could come back to that recognition.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm working with people in...
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: uh, what I describe as an extreme state or an elevated state.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: What I try to do is reflect back the stillness that I see within them.
• 55:11
  They can't quite access because in that moment they are a
• 55:16
  multicolored,
• 55:16
  uh,
• 55:17
  rain cloud.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I can see their blue sky.
• 55:21
  So I try and reflect and mirror back the blue sky,
• 55:24
  uh,
• 55:25
  which usually results in a stillness.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh,
• 55:28
  I don't think I've ever met anyone in the first episode of what
• 55:33
  they may term a
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: psychosis,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: that when I have met them early enough,
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: the psychosis has gone away.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: Which brings me to my next point, which is often it's not how we relate.
• 55:53
  It's how others relate around us that causes a lot of
• 55:56
  difficulty or how we are treated.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: So when I think of going into the chamber, I was quite cool about it.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: I thought, yeah, I can do this.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: I've been in silent retreats.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: I've been in monasteries.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: Blah, blah, blah.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then friends started getting really nervous.
• 56:10
  I had one friend said,
• 56:11
  you know,
• 56:12
  is there going to be a medical team there?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, yeah, this is a really big deal.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I started to get a bit worried, but I actually got nervous about it.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought that was a wonderful metaphor.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: That was psychophobia.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: They were afraid of what might happen to my mind.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then even with all my experience,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: I got a little bit nervous about what was going to happen to my mind.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think the trick is don't panic.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: What happens is society panics.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: They, you know, people love someone.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: They see someone getting into a state that they do not understand.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: It triggers their psychophobia and they pass the parcel.
• 57:00
  They'll go to usually a medical facility because that's the
• 57:04
  first point of call.
• 57:07
  The medical profession with the best intentions usually doesn't
• 57:15
  have the time or the knowledge.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: Their job to quote someone is to eradicate symptoms.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: My job, I think, is to make sense of symptoms.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: but often their job is to eradicate it.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then you get into the iotrogenic impact of,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: I experienced the iotrogenic impact of people around me,
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: but imagine,
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: and these are all real examples,
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 57:40
  you're in a hospital and the doctor's so psychophobic that he
• 57:46
  calls security.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: insecurity take you away, forcibly inject you.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_02: I can't think of anything more frightening or iotrogenic.
• 58:01
  So there's something about the interdependent nature of our
• 58:07
  experience and how
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: supportive or unsupportive that is will impact our journey.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you're raising a really important point in nuance,
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: which is often in these conversations,
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm acting as some kind of break or some kind of,
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: not here,
• 58:31
  but like in just generally people asking me or talking about
• 58:36
  psychedelics,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: just go slow,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: be calm,
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: like take your time,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: be reverent.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a point where that could be
• 58:45
  sort of iotrogenic in the way that you're saying like okay this
• 58:49
  guy's afraid he's
• 58:51
  afraid for you having a negative experience how much will that
• 58:55
  impact you right so
• 58:57
  there's this nuance of best practice harm reduction going slow
• 59:02
  reverence and also
• 59:04
  ensuring that there's not excess psychophobia being injected
• 59:09
  into the person's
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: approach so
• 59:11
  Because my experience with psilocybin for the first time was
• 59:15
  extremely gentle,
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: extremely,
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: extremely wonderful,
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: extremely mild,
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 59:22
  And maybe that's because I didn't have somebody like me telling
• 59:25
  me to go slow and
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: be careful,
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really nuanced, right?
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you raising that.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_02: Which is what the asterisk kind of represents.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's awesome.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_02: Black and white, there's some nuance.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: These are tricky conversations with no simple answers.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so in a way, you were an Eldriff.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're a knowledge holder, an elder.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: on the rave scene,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: there were always people who knew more,
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: who could guide,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: informal guides.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: back in the day,
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: there was always somebody who kind of lost it at one of these raves,
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: and we learned how to help.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_02: We nearly learned how to guide.
• 1:00:18
  I remember some guy taught me this thing that when someone was
• 1:00:22
  having a really bad,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: say bad trip,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: bad experience,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: you go up to them and you say,
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: listen,
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: this is really important,
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: really,
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: really important.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: I need you to hold this for me.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: And they would put nothing in their hand and get them to hold it.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_02: So suddenly for this period of time, somebody's holding this.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: So suddenly they're not thinking about this.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: They're kind of focusing on this, which I thought was very effective.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 1:00:49
  I love,
• 1:00:50
  I love how that knowledge spontaneously arose within the
• 1:00:55
  culture somehow.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: it was,
• 1:00:59
  this was in Northern Ireland and I think the rave scene really
• 1:01:04
  contributed to the
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: peace process.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: So what wasn't happening on the overground
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: was happening on the underground.
• 1:01:14
  Protestants and Catholics were hugging on a dance floor for the
• 1:01:19
  first time,
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_02: often the first time they've encountered each other.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: A little bit like I draw the,
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: I gently draw the parallel between if people from Gaza were,
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:33
  the Israelis and Palestinians were dancing together and hugging
• 1:01:37
  each other.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it was like.
• 1:01:39
  You know,
• 1:01:39
  that level of,
• 1:01:40
  you know,
• 1:01:41
  so on the overground,
• 1:01:44
  the parents were killing each other.
• 1:01:45
  These were the children of the parents and they were coming
• 1:01:50
  together through music
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_02: and psychedelics.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_02: Before the terrorists got involved.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: There was kind of a sweet spot.
• 1:02:03
  So I think in places like Manchester,
• 1:02:04
  don't you ever heard of the Hacienda?
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_02: Really, really famous club.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: There was a sweet spot before the gangs got in on it.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then the violence came.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_02: It was the same in Northern Ireland.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: There was a period...
• 1:02:19
  where there really was love and connection and it was sort of
• 1:02:23
  paramilitary free zone.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: But unfortunately,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: they got wind of the money to be made and then,
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: the rest is history.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think the closest I've experienced that since those days is Ibiza.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's a whole nother podcast.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think if I'm trying to summarise some of the things you're saying,
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: there are opportunities in this space and there are perils and dangers.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned the industry.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me the good and the bad.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the name of the article that we created, right?
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: The good, the bad and the ugly.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: The good.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start with the good.
• 1:03:16
  So where I did my psychedelic assisted therapy graduate
• 1:03:20
  certificate in Vancouver
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: Island University up here in Canada.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: The program is moving from where it was there.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be at a different university moving forward,
• 1:03:31
  but they have an experiential wing that is both a like therapy
• 1:03:40
  experience and also
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: a place for people to practice people who have gone through the program.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: And for a community of practice to be brought together.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's called Roots to Thrive.
• 1:03:51
  So if anyone's interested in learning more about what I would
• 1:03:54
  consider to be a gold
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: standard approach to grassroots,
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: community focused,
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: non-hierarchical.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: community of practice-based psychedelic therapy,
• 1:04:08
  Roots to Thrive is what I would consider to be the vanguard
• 1:04:13
  because it's a
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: cohort-based,
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: multi-session,
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: multi-week process that has been primarily ketamine-assisted therapy,
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: but also they've experimented,
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: I believe,
• 1:04:27
  with legal MDMA and maybe even psilocybin under the exemptions
• 1:04:33
  that we have up
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: here.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I just consider that model of...
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: really accountability,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: strong visibility between practitioners,
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: really strong intake process,
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: and also more indigenous approaches,
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: just like a really comprehensive model.
• 1:04:52
  So we have places like Roots to Thrive,
• 1:04:54
  and I would love to see that model be exported.
• 1:04:57
  And that's kind of what they're trying to do is to help more
• 1:05:01
  and more communities
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: in North America and other places to adopt this kind of model.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's good.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: But it's sort of few and far between.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: The bad ranges anything from,
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: what is ostensibly actually a tech company,
• 1:05:22
  tech companies operating as health or psychedelic companies to
• 1:05:29
  underground retreats
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: where there's no medical personnel and you're
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have potential interactions going on.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's no medical intakes,
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: to just psychedelic tourism in places like the Amazon.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's just, it's endless.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: The bad is endless.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_01: The bad and ugly is endless.
• 1:05:51
  Maybe somewhere in the middle are places where people are
• 1:05:56
  beginning to take into
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: their own hands their psychophobia or their psycho,
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: everything that's going on inside of themselves.
• 1:06:04
  And they're able to access all of the resources that are around
• 1:06:09
  them through the
• 1:06:10
  internet and perhaps also through more psychedelically trained
• 1:06:14
  therapists who may
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: be in their area who can help them to approach these spaces more.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't have money or if you don't have a roots to thrive,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: you can't go to Mexico or what have you,
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: you can start to work slowly and independently.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's still fraught,
• 1:06:34
  but it's sort of like where we're at at the moment is more and
• 1:06:39
  more people being
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have time to wait until things are legal.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have the money to go here or there.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: I have, but I want to move forward.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: So how do I do that?
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it's still a mess.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_02: So we're in a bit of a moment, right?
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: Excuse me.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_02: But where do you see it going?
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: I,
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_02: since,
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think since you,
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that was happening,
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_02: or you were aware of it,
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: you might be aware of it,
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_02: but you know,
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_02: some of these companies are moving towards,
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_02: injectables.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: Which is,
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_02: is very precarious for all the obvious reasons,
• 1:07:21
  not least of which you're meant to select the dose that they
• 1:07:28
  recommend and follow
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_02: the instruction.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_02: What's the word?
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_02: Subcutaneous.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not IV.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing to stop it being IV.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: Which I thought was kind of extraordinary.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or I am.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing to stop it being I am.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_01: What's I am?
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: Intermuscular.
• 1:07:54
  okay so that's what would the difference be then so
• 1:07:58
  subcutaneous is just like a
• 1:07:59
  little like diabetic needle they're very they're very small
• 1:08:04
  they're very they're
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: just meant to inject into fat basically subcutaneous
• 1:08:09
  whereas intermuscular is in between the muscles so it's it's
• 1:08:15
  much deeper um i don't
• 1:08:18
  claim to be an expert on how they differ but you can definitely
• 1:08:23
  k-hole if that's
• 1:08:23
  what you want through ketamine a lot easier if you go the
• 1:08:28
  intermuscular route you
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: don't need as much i think the bioavailability is higher
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_01: Don't quote me.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I think.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:08:37
  obviously there's a lot of risk for diversion or inappropriate
• 1:08:40
  use or taking more
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: than you should or any number of things with that.
• 1:08:46
  So I was talking to somebody recently who switched from the
• 1:08:52
  oral lozinger to IV and
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_02: by their own admission,
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: They really struggled not to, sorry, the sub version.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_02: They really struggled not to IV it.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:09:13
  And this is a person who claimed that they didn't even like
• 1:09:16
  needles really.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_02: But they got so into the ketamine trip.
• 1:09:22
  And if you read a lot of the sort of older literature,
• 1:09:25
  they were all IVing it.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_02: So this person goes,
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_02: hmm,
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_02: I've gone this far,
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_02: I've done this,
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_02: the injecting into the fat doesn't really work.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm on the fence of whether I IV it or not.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: concerned me greatly.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm wondering,
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_02: if,
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_02: if,
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_02: if these companies are doing the numbers,
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_02: is it only a matter of time when something terrible happens?
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_02: I know that some of the companies are already being sued,
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_02: but the,
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_02: the,
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_02: the supervision's very light in that regard.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts about those, those differences?
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:10:06
  it's a significant difference in my opinion from sublingual to
• 1:10:12
  subcutaneous or
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: intermuscular,
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_01: certainly IV.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Look,
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still not convinced that sublingual lozenges should even be,
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_01: available widely to everyone with minimal supervision.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like the model that I worked within,
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_01: I have serious doubts about still,
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: even though I worked with over 700 people and saw a lot of great results,
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_01: it could have been better.
• 1:10:43
  It could have been way more medically sound,
• 1:10:46
  supervised,
• 1:10:46
  and just the gold standard.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not what it was.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_01: What would that look like?
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's where the model breaks, because to be able to have people...
• 1:11:02
  be able to access medical supervision well under the influence
• 1:11:08
  of ketamine would
• 1:11:09
  raise a price on whatever the treatment package would be
• 1:11:13
  significantly because now
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: you're paying for people to be there to supervise them.
• 1:11:18
  Like to me,
• 1:11:20
  the ideal would be if you're taking a substance like ketamine,
• 1:11:24
  which has
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: obvious effects on blood pressure and heart.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's generally safe, but not always at all.
• 1:11:35
  Ideally,
• 1:11:37
  in an ideal world,
• 1:11:38
  you would have medical supervision every time.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what Roots to Thrive is doing.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I am so confident in recommending that model,
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_01: because it's truly as safe as you can get.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_01: we're never truly safe because we're in a body,
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: but whenever we approach a substance,
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: we're not truly,
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: truly,
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: truly safe.
• 1:12:01
  But to the degree that it can be controlled and that safe
• 1:12:06
  container can be created,
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_01: something like Roots to Thrive,
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: to me,
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: hits those gold standard bars.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_01: But these telehealth companies can't do that because it's like,
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_01: where are you going to send a nurse to be with every client?
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, but that will raise your price.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So then we have this cost access problem.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_02: it's interesting that when I think of some of the companies,
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_02: it's a nurse interview and then they send the lozengers.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: But to your point about cost, they'll send maybe all of it at once.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_02: So for possibly an average person, no problem.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: They follow the rules.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: For anyone who breaks rules,
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_02: who wants to push the envelope out,
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_02: it's very,
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_02: very easy to mess with that.
• 1:12:57
  So I think you're using the word medical,
• 1:13:00
  but perhaps you just mean a degree of supervision.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also like I am very humble around the fact that
• 1:13:15
  not being a medical professional myself and dealing instead
• 1:13:19
  with the preparation,
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: integration,
• 1:13:22
  and more like psychological and inner implications of taking
• 1:13:28
  any substance.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm concerned with.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that's not the entire thing.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: jurisdiction like that we need we need more supervision around the entire
• 1:13:40
  experience specifically what's happening with the body when we
• 1:13:44
  take in a substance
• 1:13:46
  and with ketamine there are a number of interactions and
• 1:13:50
  there's a number of
• 1:13:52
  potential things that can go wrong so in my ideals psychedelic
• 1:13:58
  assist therapy world
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: anyone taking ketamine would be medically supervised
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_01: That would be, I would love that.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, that to me would be the way we should go.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not feasible.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not profitable.
• 1:14:17
  It's not possible for many people,
• 1:14:21
  the way things are organized currently.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't feel like it's my, it's ethical for me to be like, well,
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:14:34
  let's balance things like more people being able to access
• 1:14:39
  ketamine and have their
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: lives transformed and maybe not die as a result of,
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:14:46
  killing themselves or any number of things that come from
• 1:14:50
  having this huge amount
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_01: of pain and suffering that people are carrying.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Versus deaths from not having medical supervision.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm supposed to balance those, you know?
• 1:15:04
  And I feel like that is the,
• 1:15:06
  uh,
• 1:15:08
  the Faustian bargain that's put out there by these companies.
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like choose, which one do you want?
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I don't want to choose.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Don't make me choose.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like you haven't worked hard enough.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in this field,
• 1:15:20
  if you're in this field and you're going into it and you're
• 1:15:22
  giving me that bargain,
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_01: you haven't done all of your work.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm saying.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not good enough.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't accept that standard is what I'm saying.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So in an ideal world where you could do anything,
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_02: tell me how you would,
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_02: that's just stick with Ketamin.
• 1:15:41
  What would be the ideal way of delivering that side from,
• 1:15:46
  from beginning to end?
• 1:15:48
  Well,
• 1:15:50
  again,
• 1:15:50
  I refer us back to Roots to Thrive because it's a group model.
• 1:15:56
  so there's a lot of there's a buddy system so when you come in
• 1:16:01
  you have another
• 1:16:02
  person who's in the cohort with you who's your buddy and you
• 1:16:06
  have a weekly call
• 1:16:09
  with the entire group and you also have medical like i'm not a
• 1:16:16
  spokesperson for the
• 1:16:17
  person so i don't i mean for the program so i don't know how
• 1:16:20
  they have it set up
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: exactly right now but
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's a full medical intake.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's a strong group component of like, where are we at?
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like group therapy.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then during the actual sessions,
• 1:16:37
  they are group ketamine sessions and they're in person and
• 1:16:41
  they're medically
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_01: supervised.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're not being sent ketamine.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_01: to your home,
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_01: you go to a place where everyone else is,
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: and you're in community while you have your experience.
• 1:16:53
  And I just think that in terms of ticking the box of physically
• 1:17:00
  as safe as we can
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_01: get,
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_01: yep,
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: and psychologically as resourced as we can get,
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_01: yep,
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_01: because we have our community,
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_01: we have our therapists,
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_01: with all our people here,
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: it's in person,
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: it's not remote.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have a remote component.
• 1:17:15
  So that in between sessions,
• 1:17:17
  we still are all in contact with each other.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_01: But it just feels more of like,
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_01: does healing ever,
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_01: like healing happens individually,
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: but it probably happens better in a group.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's how historically,
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_01: when you look at historical use of psychedelics,
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_01: it was never just like some person off on their own somewhere,
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_01: healing.
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_01: It was in a group.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, in an ideal world, it would look more like that.
• 1:17:43
  There are just numerous barriers to that,
• 1:17:46
  specifically around money and time.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we subsidize that so that it actually works?
• 1:17:53
  Because right now the excuse is we have to create a model that
• 1:17:58
  is accessible so
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: it's not too expensive.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so because that is our primary ethical consideration,
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_01: these other things need to be subservient to that.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm saying, no, no.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: You're going too fast.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_01: We need to slow down because that dichotomy, that's a false dichotomy.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_01: That won't do.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_01: We have to do something that's more towards the model of Roots to Thrive.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_01: What happens if you don't like groups?
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they do an individual option, Roots to Thrive.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's more expensive, obviously.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, it's fair enough if you don't, I don't like groups.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_01: I hate them.
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_01: But if it was my only option, then I would learn to like it.
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I have learned to like it in the past.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I only like groups if I like everyone in it.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_02: In the UK,
• 1:19:05
  SPEAKER_02: they used to,
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_02: on most reputable training therapy programs,
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_02: the end of the day was group process called PPD groups.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_02: There were no rules, no explanations.
• 1:19:18
  You just went into this room with your colleagues and there was
• 1:19:22
  a tutor who would
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_02: sit in the group and not say anything.
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you're sitting in the canteen with these people like you.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Noah, he's lovely.
• 1:19:31
  Then you go into these group situations and Noah turns into
• 1:19:34
  this monster or turns
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_02: into the quiet one or the aggressive one.
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_02: I just thought it was fascinating.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was great training,
• 1:19:41
  but it shows that there's definitely something that happens
• 1:19:45
  when you put certain
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_02: people in a group.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't happen when you're sitting with them in the canteen.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of it's family dynamics and envy.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Very interesting.
• 1:19:56
  So are you inferring that the economic priorities are
• 1:20:04
  negatively impacting the optimum delivery?
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Simple as that.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's probably what I should have said.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Just cut to the cheese.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_02: it's in one of my kind of pillars of thought,
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_02: which is the McDonaldization of,
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_02: of,
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_02: of care,
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_02: accountability,
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_02: controllability,
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_02: predictability.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but there are irrational consequences to that.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I won't go into, but you can read up on, um,
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think my conclusion on the delivery of therapy is similar.
• 1:20:45
  So I was very lucky to have,
• 1:20:47
  I was given free reign in the clinic for about three years.
• 1:20:51
  And I said,
• 1:20:52
  I wasn't going to see anyone for less than at least two times a
• 1:20:56
  week,
• 1:20:57
  if not more.
• 1:21:00
  a year to two years work and I saw people who got off all
• 1:21:07
  medication,
• 1:21:08
  who recovered.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_02: So my issue is we are under pressure economically, more numbers.
• 1:21:20
  So people get into the cycle where they perhaps go to see a
• 1:21:24
  therapist for an hour.
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_02: They're made to feel good.
• 1:21:27
  SPEAKER_02: They go away.
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_02: They don't feel good to come back again.
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:32
  I work with people to help them feel really bad because I feel
• 1:21:38
  that behind those
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_02: symptoms,
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_02: the symptoms are the defense against the pain.
• 1:21:43
  So it's like when I think of loss and depression that's related
• 1:21:49
  to the loss to me,
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_02: that's a symptom that's defending against the actual true loss.
• 1:21:55
  So therefore you're working with people to experience what the
• 1:21:59
  symptom is shielding
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_02: them from,
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_02: which means that people will in theory get worse before they get better.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Most therapists don't want people to get worse.
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_02: They want to fix them.
• 1:22:12
  So it's sort of counterintuitive and then it creates this
• 1:22:15
  circle of dependency.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And in that clinic,
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_02: which I thought was a great space,
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_02: there were other people,
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was supervising people,
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_02: and they were asking their boss,
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_02: could they see people twice a week?
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the answer was no, because you can see two people instead of one.
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I was very lucky.
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_02: I had a lot of experience and they respected that.
• 1:22:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm very grateful that they allowed me to have that opportunity.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_02: But the results were self-evident.
• 1:22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Hope and recovery.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm saying it's possible.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_02: So therefore in this sort of psychedelic space,
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_02: there is the risk that the McDonaldization,
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_02: the economic factors are actually impacting the potential effectiveness.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I agree a hundred percent.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you just spoke to with your example was,
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_01: clearly outlines the necessity of contact with other humans in person,
• 1:23:24
  SPEAKER_01: creating a strong container,
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_01: allowing for that negative affect to finally come to the surface.
• 1:23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because the more contact with somebody like you,
• 1:23:34
  the safer it is to be able to feel what's behind the symptoms
• 1:23:38
  to actually go into
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_01: it properly.
• 1:23:41
  And if you throw in psychedelics to just the wherever people
• 1:23:46
  are at without that
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_01: level of containment,
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_01: then bad things happen,
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_01: which is the people that you get for the cleanup jobs,
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_01: basically.
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the necessity of containment.
• 1:24:01
  on a frequency and at a depth that is far beyond what the
• 1:24:07
  McDonnellization would
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_01: allow for is,
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_01: clear now.
• 1:24:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just reassociating.
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_02: What came into mind there was holotropic breathworks.
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Have you come across that?
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:24:26
  SPEAKER_02: What are your thoughts?
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_02: I've got Nita Gage.
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_02: She's real, I won't say expert, but yeah, expert.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_02: You're also very involved in the Hoffman process.
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_02: So she's coming on the podcast.
• 1:24:37
  She was the first person who guided me through a breathwork
• 1:24:42
  experience and sort of sidebar.
• 1:24:45
  And through that experience,
• 1:24:47
  it transformed how I saw myself as a healer.
• 1:24:52
  SPEAKER_02: I never saw myself as a healer until I had this experience.
• 1:24:56
  SPEAKER_02: And the experience,
• 1:24:56
  the message that I got from that was your job is to put people
• 1:25:02
  in touch with their
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_02: capacity to heal themselves.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that was a, that was a slight shift.
• 1:25:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I like, you know, I always valued people.
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was very phenomenological,
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_02: people first,
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_02: but this idea that everyone in front of me has the capacity.
• 1:25:19
  SPEAKER_02: You just need to connect them with it.
• 1:25:21
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_02: So then I felt this is a little bit of a trick here.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_02: The trick is you have faith that I am the person who can heal.
• 1:25:29
  SPEAKER_02: The minute you have the faith in me,
• 1:25:31
  I reflect it back to guide you in connecting with your capacity
• 1:25:36
  to heal yourself.
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_02: That was a huge experience.
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've done it a few times since, and it was like chasing the dragon.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was like a complete experience from beginning to end.
• 1:25:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I should give that context for people who don't know.
• 1:25:52
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned Stan Groff.
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think he invented it.
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Did he invent it?
• 1:25:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what.
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think when LSD was banned,
• 1:25:59
  he had worked out that the breath can induce an altered state
• 1:26:04
  of consciousness.
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_02: And this comes under this sort of heading of breath works.
• 1:26:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's different people who do it in different ways.
• 1:26:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think I was doing the Groff way.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_02: That was huge.
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_02: And the story was I was in a hot tub in Esalen.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And this woman said to me, oh, breath works.
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's like taking five doses of ayahuasca.
• 1:26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I just burst out laughing.
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_02: I had this ridiculous thing I'd ever heard.
• 1:26:33
  You tell me I can have an altered state of consciousness just
• 1:26:37
  by breathing.
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_02: I went along as a skeptic.
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_02: I told them I was a skeptic.
• 1:26:41
  I told them I was just doing it because I didn't want to be out
• 1:26:43
  of sync with the
• 1:26:44
  SPEAKER_02: rest of the group.
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Five minutes in, unbelievable.
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 1:26:52
  SPEAKER_02: part of it was the context,
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_02: sort of on indigenous land in Esalen,
• 1:26:57
  SPEAKER_02: they got a tribe.
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_02: But it took me a year to integrate that experience fully.
• 1:27:04
  a lot of reading around indigenous tribes and healing that just
• 1:27:09
  sort of came up.
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_02: The guy from Belfast in California,
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_02: it was like so far removed from what was familiar,
• 1:27:17
  SPEAKER_02: but it was kind of beautiful and powerful.
• 1:27:21
  Do you see a complementary relationship with the alternative
• 1:27:27
  type of breathworks or...
• 1:27:30
  Yeah,
• 1:27:31
  I have to confess to not having much expertise at all there
• 1:27:34
  other than having experienced
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_01: some transformational journeys myself through breathwave.
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:27:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think that because let's just take psilocybin.
• 1:27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Psilocybin is very much in the popular, the mind these days.
• 1:27:57
  SPEAKER_01: People are interested in it.
• 1:27:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of talk about it in many places.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can get your hands on it quite easily.
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:28:03
  But it's incredibly,
• 1:28:04
  incredibly powerful,
• 1:28:06
  probably way more powerful than people realize.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's an advanced medicine personally.
• 1:28:12
  So if you can begin to contact the affect that is stored
• 1:28:18
  underneath our usual
• 1:28:20
  SPEAKER_01: facade and what we have to do to adapt and survive to our daily life,
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_01: you can begin to contact the affect underneath that in SIPs.
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And in a way that allows you to,
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_01: if it's too much,
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_01: if you're starting to get flooded,
• 1:28:35
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to start breathing regularly again.
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And usually breathwork is done in a circle with facilitators.
• 1:28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you have some support.
• 1:28:44
  SPEAKER_01: that's awesome.
• 1:28:45
  So I think that that is a really strong and probably much safer
• 1:28:50
  approach into a
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_01: place where eventually you will be contacting a lot of affect.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you take psilocybin, there's no way out.
• 1:28:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_01: there,
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_01: there are trip abortives,
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_01: but for most people it's,
• 1:29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I take it and I'm in and I can't get out.
• 1:29:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's too much,
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's where we run into problems.
• 1:29:13
  So if we can start to titrate some of the stuff that if we've
• 1:29:18
  never had an
• 1:29:18
  SPEAKER_01: experience of,
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_01: it can be quite shocking sometimes.
• 1:29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the breathwork can bring it up very strongly.
• 1:29:26
  And you can be amazed by its power,
• 1:29:29
  the potency of what you've been feeling underneath.
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it's a little bit more,
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 1:29:35
  safer psychologically because there's more support and
• 1:29:40
  containment and there's that
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_01: ability to curtail the process if you feel like that's enough for today.
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm generally in favor,
• 1:29:49
  but with the caveat that I don't have a ton of experience or
• 1:29:53
  context for it.
• 1:29:56
  I hosted a Breathworks event here and I invited a mixed bunch
• 1:30:04
  of people who I
• 1:30:05
  thought could benefit from veterans to someone in government to
• 1:30:12
  just a range of
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_02: eclectic people.
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we started on the first evening with doing some dance.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it was really wonderful.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some of these veterans, hard, marine types, stiff.
• 1:30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Within 15 minutes of getting someone to do movement,
• 1:30:29
  SPEAKER_02: they had connected,
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_02: they dropped their guard.
• 1:30:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then the next day when we went into the breathworks,
• 1:30:36
  Every single person had some sort of meaningful...
• 1:30:39
  It was really beautiful and magic.
• 1:30:42
  But I think you make a great point and I think people need to
• 1:30:45
  be really aware of it.
• 1:30:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some psychedelics, you're locked in.
• 1:30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:30:49
  You know,
• 1:30:50
  it's like,
• 1:30:50
  whether it's good,
• 1:30:51
  bad or ugly,
• 1:30:52
  it lasts for a period.
• 1:30:55
  SPEAKER_02: For me, breath works, as you say, you can sort of monitor it more.
• 1:30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Ketamine, for me, was very different because you're not locked in.
• 1:31:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can have...
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_02: a shorter experience, which I like.
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm conscious of time.
• 1:31:09
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to ask you two things.
• 1:31:12
  SPEAKER_02: First of all,
• 1:31:13
  who do you think you are and why should we be listening to you
• 1:31:17
  talking about any of
• 1:31:18
  SPEAKER_02: this?
• 1:31:18
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to use this Bice Girls track.
• 1:31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Who do you think you are?
• 1:31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I probably get sued, so I'm just going to sing it.
• 1:31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well...
• 1:31:28
  SPEAKER_01: I worked in ketamine assisted therapy for three years as a guide,
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_01: during which time I worked with over 700 people.
• 1:31:39
  SPEAKER_01: The majority of which were traumatized in some way.
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I saw the extent of trauma that the average American is carrying,
• 1:31:50
  as well as the potential transformative effect of helping to
• 1:31:55
  unburden the nervous
• 1:31:56
  SPEAKER_01: system and allow for that to start to be alchemized through ketamine.
• 1:32:03
  SPEAKER_01: During that time,
• 1:32:03
  I also came to see all the pitfalls and trappings of the
• 1:32:09
  telehealth model as it is
• 1:32:11
  SPEAKER_01: applied to psychedelic assisted therapy.
• 1:32:15
  And I also,
• 1:32:16
  as I said,
• 1:32:17
  went through a graduate certificate program and training around
• 1:32:21
  this.
• 1:32:22
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to that,
• 1:32:23
  SPEAKER_01: I continue to work one-to-one with people,
• 1:32:27
  SPEAKER_01: not explicitly in psychedelic therapy,
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_01: but certainly preparation and integration comes into the work that I do.
• 1:32:34
  And I would say that I'm focused on helping the people who are
• 1:32:40
  at some kind of
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_01: crossroads,
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_01: whether they're in their life,
• 1:32:43
  SPEAKER_01: business,
• 1:32:43
  SPEAKER_01: career area,
• 1:32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes a relationship,
• 1:32:45
  but mostly has to do with who they're being in the world and
• 1:32:49
  what they're doing and
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_01: whether it has impact or purpose now.
• 1:32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Those tend to be the people who I end up working with.
• 1:32:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my focus in terms of who I work with one-to-one.
• 1:33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And more broadly,
• 1:33:02
  I'm interested in just everything that has to do with inner
• 1:33:05
  work and how we can do
• 1:33:07
  SPEAKER_01: it more effectively.
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you're a beautiful person, which helps.
• 1:33:15
  Tell me about,
• 1:33:17
  and understated,
• 1:33:18
  I should say,
• 1:33:19
  if you're going to get a guide,
• 1:33:20
  get you.
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because you have incredible experience.
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_02: You're very understated in that.
• 1:33:29
  SPEAKER_02: And a real generosity of spirit.
• 1:33:31
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me about the music that you started.
• 1:33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me what's happening with that.
• 1:33:35
  Yeah,
• 1:33:35
  so before I met my wife,
• 1:33:39
  she had started a transformational music project called Anila.
• 1:33:44
  And many of the tracks that she created back then came to be
• 1:33:48
  used in psychedelic circles.
• 1:33:52
  SPEAKER_01: And once we met, we started creating more music.
• 1:33:54
  SPEAKER_01: We worked with Wave Paths,
• 1:33:56
  which is a music company involved in the psychedelic system
• 1:34:01
  therapy space.
• 1:34:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we created a bunch of tracks for them.
• 1:34:05
  We've also had music featured in shows like Vikings,
• 1:34:09
  which is pretty cool.
• 1:34:11
  And we're continuing to create music for her slash our audience
• 1:34:15
  because we have a
• 1:34:16
  SPEAKER_01: separate audience that's for that music.
• 1:34:21
  So yeah,
• 1:34:23
  I produce and I also create my own music as well,
• 1:34:27
  my own solo project.
• 1:34:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a major part of, I would say...
• 1:34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Just the,
• 1:34:35
  what the practice of being involved in psychedelic therapy has
• 1:34:40
  created for me and
• 1:34:42
  SPEAKER_01: my understanding,
• 1:34:43
  I like to bring it through in the music just as much as I do
• 1:34:47
  talking or...
• 1:34:49
  creating educational content or what have you uh equally as
• 1:34:52
  much as the expression
• 1:34:53
  through the music it feels like that's a an important outlet
• 1:34:58
  wonderful because you
• 1:35:00
  know for people who don't know the the music or the soundtrack
• 1:35:04
  to to these
• 1:35:05
  therapies can be huge part of it can't it massive massive yeah
• 1:35:10
  absolutely massive
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_02: some of it's like
• 1:35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Who makes this stuff really out there?
• 1:35:18
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the stuff,
• 1:35:20
  SPEAKER_02: some of the early stuff that I listened to was so out there,
• 1:35:23
  SPEAKER_02: like stuff I've never heard before,
• 1:35:26
  which obviously has an impact when you're under the influence
• 1:35:30
  of psychedelics.
• 1:35:33
  I noticed they shifted,
• 1:35:34
  some of the companies seemed to shifted towards more
• 1:35:37
  less sort of way out there and more a little bit more
• 1:35:41
  accessible but that's very
• 1:35:42
  interesting and are you making the music and offering it just
• 1:35:46
  therapeutically or do
• 1:35:48
  you do you engage with people and the music do you mean like
• 1:35:53
  are we doing concerts
• 1:35:54
  or what do you mean or like do you have circles where you're
• 1:35:58
  playing oh I see
• 1:36:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, we're not doing that.
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Mainly,
• 1:36:03
  we're focused on creating stuff that a wide range of people can
• 1:36:08
  use in their
• 1:36:09
  SPEAKER_01: journeys,
• 1:36:09
  SPEAKER_01: whether it be in actual psychedelic sessions or in breathwork sessions or
• 1:36:16
  SPEAKER_01: meditations or what have you.
• 1:36:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of what we're doing right now.
• 1:36:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's a number of...
• 1:36:21
  tracks that we've created that are available just on Spotify or
• 1:36:24
  what have you,
• 1:36:25
  but we also have tracks for creating that are longer and deeper
• 1:36:29
  and more use
• 1:36:31
  SPEAKER_01: specific and,
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_01: that we kind of find,
• 1:36:36
  SPEAKER_01: get a bit de sacralized if we just throw them up on Spotify,
• 1:36:40
  SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
• 1:36:41
  SPEAKER_02: It does make sense.
• 1:36:42
  SPEAKER_02: What didn't I ask you that I should have asked you about psychedelics?
• 1:36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Psychedelic therapy.
• 1:36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe just on the music, one final piece.
• 1:36:53
  SPEAKER_01: If people,
• 1:36:54
  if you have therapists who are listening to the show or just
• 1:36:59
  the average person
• 1:37:00
  who's trying to decide what should I listen to while I do my
• 1:37:04
  specific session with
• 1:37:05
  SPEAKER_01: my specific substance,
• 1:37:08
  SPEAKER_01: one thing I find most people...
• 1:37:12
  SPEAKER_01: approach in a,
• 1:37:14
  SPEAKER_01: not a wrong way,
• 1:37:14
  SPEAKER_01: but in a way that is not as efficacious is to create long playlists.
• 1:37:21
  SPEAKER_01: I recommend not creating a long playlist.
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I recommend not trying to think about an arc.
• 1:37:27
  Oh,
• 1:37:27
  at two hours,
• 1:37:28
  I'm going to be here,
• 1:37:28
  so that song will be good,
• 1:37:30
  or down here,
• 1:37:31
  I'll like this.
• 1:37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Instead,
• 1:37:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would recommend just choose the songs that are most alive to you,
• 1:37:36
  SPEAKER_01: that feel most just like,
• 1:37:39
  SPEAKER_01: I love that song,
• 1:37:40
  SPEAKER_01: and I would love to have that energy be a part of whatever I'm doing.
• 1:37:44
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, there are some ideas like maybe don't have...
• 1:37:47
  as many lyrics in the language that you know,
• 1:37:50
  but that's also not a rule.
• 1:37:54
  Better to have a collection of songs that you love and then
• 1:37:57
  press the repeat button.
• 1:37:59
  when you find one you like and stay on that vibe for as long as
• 1:38:03
  you want until it's done.
• 1:38:06
  And I find that approach where you end up listening probably to
• 1:38:09
  just like between
• 1:38:10
  four to seven songs over the course of like six hours or
• 1:38:14
  however long is actually
• 1:38:16
  way better for dropping into a specific place in your nervous
• 1:38:20
  system and on a theme
• 1:38:21
  SPEAKER_01: and just staying in that vein until it's fully plumbed.
• 1:38:26
  and then allowing your body to tell you okay it's time for a
• 1:38:29
  new song it's like
• 1:38:30
  completely different way of approaching music for for sessions
• 1:38:36
  and one that's
• 1:38:37
  worked well for me and people i know so that's just a thing
• 1:38:41
  that i would share
• 1:38:41
  about music i love that i hadn't thought about it in that way i
• 1:38:45
  think it's really
• 1:38:46
  SPEAKER_02: really helpful and interesting i'd like to try that myself
• 1:38:50
  It's been an honor and a privilege to you and to have you taken
• 1:38:55
  the time to come
• 1:38:56
  SPEAKER_02: and talk to us.
• 1:38:56
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate you.
• 1:38:58
  I appreciate the work that you do and how thoughtful you are in
• 1:39:03
  the way that you do it.
• 1:39:04
  And I think if there were more people like you in this space,
• 1:39:07
  I think we'd be in good hands.
• 1:39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Michael.
• 1:39:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a privilege and an honor to be here.
• 1:39:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really excited for your podcast.
• 1:39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:39:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited to hear more episodes and see where you take it,
• 1:39:23
  SPEAKER_01: because likewise,
• 1:39:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need voices such as yours in the space.
• 1:39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate that.
• 1:39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Great to see you.
• 1:39:31
  SPEAKER_01: I hope to see you soon.
• 1:39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.