Latest / Cover IV Podcast / Without The Stripes, It’s Not Official! with Jim McLean

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Without The Stripes, It’s Not Official! with Jim McLean · Cover IV Podcast

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Cover Four.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a Section 4 football fan, you're in the right place.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is your podcast.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Coach Smith, and I'll be your host.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Buckle up.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: We'd like to welcome our guest, Jim McLean, to the Cover Four podcast.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Jim is a member of the Southern Tier Football Officials chapter.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: He is their rules interpreter and referee on game day.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Jim will review rule updates and points of emphasis for the coming season.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Jim will also take you through a typical game day and what it what he does to get ready and prepare.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he'll also share with you the good side of officiating.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Jim.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Tim, for having me.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hey Jim, really appreciate you coming on here.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start off with rules updates.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know every year there's always new rules or modification to existing rules.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So take us through that.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on there?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's actually a very light year as far as rule changes.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's really um uh the only real rule change, uh substantial rule change, is that the play cards that players, I don't know, maybe nine or ten years ago were required to not wear on their belt and put on their forearm, they're now allowed to put them on the belt this year.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: That is that is the probably the biggest, if only rule change that we have this year.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been a light year for us in terms of changes.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when when we used to use those, they would call them wrist coaches.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's pretty interesting.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know one rule, and I'll just touch on this real quick.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: One rule when I was broadcasting, one year you had to take the snap from this is high school, you had to take the snap from center and then clock it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there was one student athlete that was in the shotgun, and he took the snap and he clocked it, and it was a penalty.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: But the following year they changed that and gave you the opportunity, as long as you take the clean snap either from center or in the shotgun, don't bobble it or anything, don't make any moves, take it and immediately clock it.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can clock it.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it was like a year too early when he that was a good update because I think as you're seeing more of these offenses shift to pistol and and those kind of formations, I think that was a logical rule change that made sense because teams that you know, some teams don't ever go under center.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, if they don't do it a lot, so it it did kind of clean that up a little bit and kind of little allow for some of the progression of the game at the high school level.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, because you as a defense, I was a defensive coordinator.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would look at if that was the rule, and I looked at that and I saw a team that's always in the pistol or shotgun, but yet now he's dropping under center, and there's no time around.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: We would have something we we ram that center or do something.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Try to know he's coming up there to spike it, right?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yeah.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's good.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of gives them another uh out there in that.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um what are bees every year, you the officials I know have points of emphasis, things that they in addition to everything else you you want to call, you have some things you really want to emphasize.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of things do you have this year?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, one of the biggest things, um, and you know, we try not to be the fashion police, but one of the things that has been mandated from the state is that you know, you watch Saturday afternoon college football and and you look at some of the players in the NFL, they they have their shorts basically shorts on.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the state um is really adamant about players having knee pads that cover knees and pants to cover knee pads.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: So during the coach's meeting, I emphasize that again.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I know sometimes um you've got a taller player, skinnier player, they the pants don't fit great.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, we'll try to work with you if it's if it's thing, but if I see it rolling up or tucked up or pulled up, and you're trying to look like uh, you know, uh USC player on a Saturday afternoon, that's no bueno, right?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna go ahead and and that one actually we're gonna send off the first time, and then if they come back out, it's gonna be a 15-yard sportsman like on the on the coach.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, and there's even talk about potentially implementing fine systems and things like that down the future, because I know Georgia implemented that and they're looking to that.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's been a real heavy point emphasis that was stressed at our uh rules interpretation meeting uh earlier in the summer.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know as a player, I always wanted the protection that you're supposed to wear.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you ever got had your pants up like that, you get blasted in the knee, like from the side or something, you're gonna wish you had your knee covered and had a pad on it.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's painful.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: That is, absolutely.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: And another point of emphasis, and I think this is kind of coming, it's always been a rule, but I think as this tush-push, as you're seeing in the NFL, you know, just like with the pants, you start things seen in NFL, and then you start to see it migrate down.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: But that is still um an illegal move.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about that at the coaches' meeting that it tush-push, anything plan assisting the runner is still a penalty in high school, you know, and we're always going to start to see hands extended from the fullback on the quarterback.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's an easy call.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if if we're a pile moving, different story.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if we see an obvious tush-push, we talked about um emphasizing that rule this year and really kind of nipping that in the butt if it starts to grow at the high school level.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, another one you you alluded to when I when I broadcasting or I talk to people, I they're confused about uh helping a runner, pushing or pulling or anything like that.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just kind of clarify that so our listeners got a real good understanding of what that really means?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Pulling the runner, you see sometimes a lineman will grab a running back and kind of back him in, you know, pulling this jersey, backing him into the end zone, right?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's an easy call.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's an assisting the runner.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or you start to see where a fullback lines up behind the quarterback and his immediate uh action is to go put his hands in the square of his back and then push him into a line.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Those are two of the obvious places we're gonna see that.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you get a pile and you get running backs shoulders into piles and the piles moving, that's that's that's not really, we don't get hung up on that a lot because it's hard to say is it assisting the runners or is it the pile moving?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: But those two other ways are obvious um signs for us to to throw a flag.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: If if we see an obvious pull or certainly extended arm push on the back of a running back or on the back of a quarterback or a running back by somebody else, that's those are kind of in indicators that I that I talk to the guys about.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those are things that you should see those and and they should generate a flag.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's another one uh interesting call.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh back in the day, uh, when you're running the ball, coach, I remember coaches, I can almost see the coach saying it, you know, grab grab the pulling guards, uh, pants or jersey and let them lead you up in the hole.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And now you can't do that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: My understanding is that's offensive uh holding.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's defensive holding, yes.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean the running back holding on to the line.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yes, yes, they can't do that either.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can't graze grass or uncircle your pick.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but we also have the same thing where some of these teams that you run, like uh some of the Elmira teams run that double wings tight set where they and I and I've seen some teams tempted to grab onto the guards to keep them from pulling, and that also is a is a defensive holding.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what you're talking about.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So when you call defensive holding, you know, it sometimes it confuses the coach, but it that is actually illegal.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're not allowed to do that, um, even either side of the ball.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as long as we're onto the rules aspect here, is there any other rule that you you hear people uh get wrong or you get yelled at because people don't understand a particular rule?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: So this is your time to get that rule or rules out there and clarify it.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the biggest one is the horse collar tackle.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's real specific requirements for that to become a penalty, right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's and what you I mean, I'll explain the rule first.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be a grasp in the shoulder pads inside the jersey or around the nameplate area of the jersey, right?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't have to be in the jersey, doesn't have to be in the pads, but it can, if it is, that is also included.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it can be just grabbing up around where the name is printed in the back of the jersey, the nameplate area.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And what you have to do is clearly defined in the rules, is you have to bring that player down backwards or to the side.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what we see a lot, and this is I I think the last three coaches meeting that I attended, Section Four coaches meeting I attended, I I talk about this because I think it's one that we that the average fan gets wrong, is that, right?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll see a lot of times what happens is the player runs up, grabs the back of the jersey, you know, qualifying for a horse-collar tackle, grabs him, may stop him, may pull him slightly backwards, and then he goes and he finishes with a form tackle from their behind and he finishes forward.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: I you hear a lot of fans screaming that's a horse collar.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I hear a lot of, you know, unfortunately, I think coaches are getting better recognizing that.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it does have to take him to the ground.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times you'll see them, they'll pull them, they'll stop, and the kid will pull away and they'll want a horse-collar tackle.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not the rule.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's clearly defined as a uh grasping in the nameplate or inside the opening of the jersey and the shoulder pads and then pulling it to the ground sideways or backwards.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because what you the way you started to describe that, if he grabbed the back of the jersey and continued to do what you said was a penalty, it's a penalty.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: But if he started to grab that and then let go and then tackle a normal form tackle or whatever, then that's legitimate.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because you didn't follow it through.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can see where they would get confused with that.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's very easily confused.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's, you know, it looks, and you know, sometimes it does look bad.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: You'll you'll see it, you, you know, some of these kids are pre-flexible and they'll get a really good pull backwards and a lean backwards a little bit, but then they lose the grip and the player falls forward, and then we've got nothing.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: But usually the fans get all riled up on that one.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, I don't have a penalty and call because it's really specifically laid out in the rule book.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you you you're enforcing the rules that are already predetermined.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you're making this stuff up.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: We used to call it rag rules, rules as you go.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: We used to play stuff in backyard, whatever.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: We call it rag rules, rules as you go.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what you're doing.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: You got an NFHS defined rule set that you're officiating the game to, hence the officials.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's true.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's we spent a lot of time in the summer.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's kind of what I do as a rules interpreter.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of start from the rule changes, and then we I have a curriculum that basically covers all 10 rules.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's only 10 rules in football, believe it or not.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: But there's many subsections and articles underneath those rules, but there's only 10 rules in football.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there's only 10 rules in the rule book.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's a that's a great trivia question.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's only 10 rules sections in the book.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there might be rule seven-three-two, subsection A, those kind of things, but there's really legitimately 10 rules in the rule book.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's really I like that.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: That I might have to add that to my uh I like to talk at banquets and things like that.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have sports trivia, and that would that would be a great one to have in there.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna look that one up and then refine it for a quick question.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's good stuff.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Jim, you've been doing this for 26 seasons, so I'm sure you've got uh a game day routine that you go through.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you're the rep, you're a referee, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I last eight or nine years.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I've been the I I used to be, I start off as the umpire, which is positioning the linebacker in the defensive backfield around the linebacker depth.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then um, you know, as we got older and as I got more experience, um, guys retired, and it was time for me.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I swept to the other side of the ball, changed the hat to a white hat, and that's what I do, like the last eight years or so.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Take us through the uh game day ritual that Jim McClain goes through to get ready for a high school football game.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, like one of the things we started the day before, I tell a guy, like, especially these games early in the spring, it's gonna be hot, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I start hydrating the day before, simple things like that.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh typically the morning of I try to eat a lighter, healthy breakfast.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then what I do is I start to look, and there's certain rules that I read every morning.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: I re-rule the kicking game as rule six in the rule book.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I go through and I re-rule six because if we have a saying that if it's something's gonna go funky, it's gonna be on a kick, right?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's when things go sideways sometimes.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I go back in and I start, you know, I read and I'm understanding, you know, what the free kicks are, the scrimmage kicks, kick-catch interference, and all the different kinds of rules that are associated with six because again, they're they're not always applicable, but if something goes sideways or something gets weird, it's going to be on a kick play.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I always read the kick play.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I then go through and I look at, we have a section of the rule book where it basically lists out the penalties, the five, the tens, and the fifteens.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I go through all of those and just kind of give it a quick glance.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll hit some uh if you know different things like if I know a team, for instance, um, you know, maybe shifts from their lineman from a knees to a to their to a three-point stance, I'll go through and read the requirements and understanding and making sure that I'm just you know absolutely, you know, up to date on any of that stuff that I'm making sure that we're gonna anything that could potentially happen during the uh those games, anything kind of specific to a team I try to do.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then um we usually, if it's any kind of travel distance, we tend to meet as a group and drive together, but we're getting to a game about two hours before a kickoff.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we sit down and we go through a pregame.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: We do about an hour or so pregame where we start walking through, and we basically start out.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So when we go on the field, myself and the umpire are gonna read to the coach.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna go ask them if their players are legal equipped.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: The wing officials are gonna go around, they're gonna circle the field, they're gonna make sure that the the um uh pylons and that all the field is correct and there's no dangers around the field, they walk around that.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we start going, okay, we're gonna go to the sideline and we're gonna go ahead and I remind the guys like, let's, there's the time to clean up any root rule, rule uniform issues, right?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: We see any knee pads up.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is the time that we're walking in the side lane.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have to be out there 30 minutes prior to the contest.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I talk about that.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then we start like, okay, and we're on a free kick, which is a kickoff.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Where do we're standing?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: What are we doing?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: What are we looking for?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, keep in mind, you know, a kick is a kick, is a kick until three things happen to it, right?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: It kick is either possessed, it goes out of bounds, or goes into the end zone.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And a muff is not possession.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times what happened, especially on a free kick or a scrimmage kick, player will muff it, goes between his legs, was in the end zone.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: The kicking team jumps on it and everybody thinks touchdown, but it's actually a touchback, right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we just talk about those common things that might happen during a game.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then we go from there where we stand in the kickoff, and then we go to okay, where we go for the first play, where you have a run plate, what's your responsibility?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have a pass play when we go around the room and everybody we talk through the whole game at our position, and uh it's a great way to like really dial in and get focused for the game.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so we just go through the game.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what do we do on a free kick?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do on a running play?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: What are we looking for on a passing play?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Let's keep in mind, you know, certain things we're looking for, right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: We can have pass interference on the ball side, we could have a penalty on the backside, but it's not going to be pass interference.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's got to be the ball side.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we could so we just kind of walk through the common scenarios and kind of things that could go on, and then we kind of get dressed and get dialed in and get to the field and start our work.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: What I've seen too is uh there's been some you call it going sideways, and it was really a sideways play.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen a number of times where you know you you brought your team together when Dave uh Bernard was there, bring the official team together and talk it through and see what did you see.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, are we sure on this rule?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And probably 99.9% of the time you get it right.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it it's very important that we're a team out there.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I I stress that I'm wearing the white hat, but we're a team, right?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's not my responsibility.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um, we talk to the team, don't let me make a mistake.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you, you know, the time to tell me that you think I had it wrong was not three plays after we enforce it, right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now it is now, let's talk about it.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And now um this year we've actually started implementing radios.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is the first season where we test we test fitted them during the semi pro season.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's gonna help a lot with our communication too.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so if if it's something that's you know, like I had a play that um we had a penalty, an accepted penalty on the last play of a down, like I think it was the end, last last play of the first quarter.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I just almost 99.9% sure.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: I go, I'm gonna extend this with an untimed down.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody good with that?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yep, that's perfect.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: We have an accepted penalty, we're gonna extend it down.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then we talk it, then I give the signals and we extend the down.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'm certainly not, you know, not prone uh above making a mistake, but that's why there's five of us out there.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you get a brain freeze, or you you, you know, you you hesitate for a second, you've got five of you got four other guys out there to help you out.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we have some good officials been around a long time.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Got a question for you.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just thinking about when you were going through that.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Can an official wear a wrist coach?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a you know, it's official, maybe it's got your official calls on it, your penalties, your uh hand signals.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Can you wear those things?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I guess you could.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I've never seen it done.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: I know like we do carry a pocket.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: I have a pocket where I keep my game card, and in that holder, it does have some signals.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: If there was, it has all the signals in there for some reason.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: If it was a maybe an odd signal that we don't use all the time, if I were to sort of blank on it, I can look at that.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'll do some notes in there and I'll keep some things like that.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I want to remind myself of.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's kind of, you know, I mean, we do a lot of just as well.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just did scrimmage this last weekend, right?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're getting ourselves ready for the season, sure.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Getting our eyes trained, getting ourselves back out there.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, we do a lot of a lot of prep in hand, but uh, you know, it's I haven't seen it done, but I don't think it's I don't think you couldn't do it.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just I was just wondering about that.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one thing, Jim, I I realize you're always needing uh officials on your team.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and you sometimes the numbers are are low and it it causes some some problems scheduling and those kind of things.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Tech take us through a little bit of some now.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: We know the obvious bad things about officials getting yelled at, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or uh being berated, or in I'm seeing videos where they're attacked, and it's absolutely ridiculous.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: But take us through the good side of things, uh, you know, about you know, being ex-student athletes and it keeps you close to the game and the camaraderie.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So take me through the good side of officiating.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I love football because we're crews, right?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: We're a team, and I love the fact that we again, I played high school college, I played semi-pro football and I coached afterwards.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, I don't have a school job and I have a job that you know I don't have the time enough to dedicate to a high school program.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, what did I do?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: I joined the dark side and I went over to officiating.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's the best seat in the house.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: I still have, I love, love the contact and the banter with the kids, the guys out there in the girls and girls flag season.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoy being out there.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoy the kids, I enjoy uh my interactions with them, having a little good time with them out there, um, instructing them, uh, keeping them safe.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I love the the camaraderie.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Some guys have a golf league, some guys do other things, and this is this is my time.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is my fall season, it's my favorite.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we always tend to try to go out after a game, get a little dinner or a little lunch, depending on the game is.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we have some fun, we have some laughs, we tell some war stories.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think it's just it's just a way of keeping you close to the game.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's the best seat in the house.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's yeah, it's wonderful.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: I saw some, I've seen some great, great games over my 26 years, and I'm just great to be part of them.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's, you know, and and it's a it's a unique skill set that not everybody has.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we take pride in the fact that we we hone our craft every year, but we also take pride in developing that skill set and you do something that like not a lot of people could do.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, um, when you're on when you're on a varsity game, you know, the fans are so far away, you almost get to a point where you kind of don't hear that stuff.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it to me, it it's exciting.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's an adrenaline rush every time.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: It gives me prepare for, gets me excited.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I think it's just a it's just a great.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I know by the way, we do get paid for it, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, probably not the reason we're doing.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna go get rich off of you know roughing a high school football season, but it is nice and it's some extra cash, you know.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's always I've always set my money aside.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: And ever since I've been doing this, it's paid for Christmas for me, right?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of an absentee, I'm a little absent around the fall, but it it does cover it's always paid for Christmas and all the stuff we do at Christmas.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of a you know side benefit, probably not the reason to do it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna get rich, but it it is it is an also benefit.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh there's also an uh physical fitness element of it, too, that you know, you're not walking around, you you're literally running around, um, you know, and and chasing plays and and different kinds of things like that.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I can remember when the uh eight may eight-player game came on the scene.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the fields weren't really uh adjusted for that yet.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you had three less people, three less student athletes on each side out there, and they were running pretty close to the same size field.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys really had because that game's a uh a fast game, plus there's a lot of long runs in it, typically.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you got to be in shape to to call those games.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, we start, you know.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, most of us now are as we're you know, we always joke that you know the kids are getting faster, we're not getting slower.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: So as we go through our years, but yeah, we try to, you know, and we know the events in these fitness watches and trackers and things, you know.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: I do about on an average varsity football, probably four miles from walking, running, jogging, all that stuff.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and to me, it's exercise I don't think about it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: On a treadmill.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm out chasing football players, chasing footballs, and I'm having a blast, and I don't even realize the you know the extra health benefits it gives me.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you touched on a lot of the good positives there.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that brings me to the next question, Jim.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody's out there and they're interested in uh having a conversation with you or whoever um talks to the people that want to get involved in the profession of officiating, how do they do that?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so anytime, first of all, um most of us have a card on a recruitment card.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so if you do see one of us at a, you know, we get a lot of at youth games or maybe a JV game and you know, where we're a little more accessible, you know, to fans and stuff, they asked, right?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we do that.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: We do have an email address which is STFO secretary, traditional spelling.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's STFO secretary at gmail.com.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we can get you an application, get that sent over to you uh is that we also do have a presence on uh Facebook as well.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can look up Southern Interior Football officials on Facebook uh and you can message us through there as well.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um we try to we try to do some fun, trivia stuff in this in this time of year and some know the rules, you make the call stuff to get some engagement around that.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: We've had I've been following that.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's good stuff.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know where I saw used to see that when I was younger, they did that on Monday night football.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they did.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: They run a scenario, and I think they would even go to halftime and then give you time to think about it, then they would come back.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I when I was younger, I didn't get many of them right at all because they were kind of brainbenders, um, you know, a little bit.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that's that's good stuff.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh once you get done with making your point here, I've got a scenario I want to run by you.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, um we we start meeting in July, but even now, if you want to be interested in the next couple of weeks and wanted to come in and we could get you caught up pretty quickly.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's one of the challenges we have is that you know, people don't start typically thinking football in July like we do.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you start thinking about it this time of year.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: So um we've actually been have a real have a presence on recruiting.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this year I'm happy to say that we're going to the season with 10 new uh first year officials, and which is great.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we have been growing, um, but we've done a diligent recruiting effort and we've tried to do as much, you know, um mentoring and you know, doing things to to to train officials and make it an easy transition possible for these guys.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we've been we've been very fortunate, but a lot of hard work we're growing, but we can always use more.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: It is everybody's moving to Friday nights now, everybody wants Friday night lights and everything else.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that does put a strain if we have nine or 10 home games, right?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's you know, could potentially 50 officials.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: We have 50 officials, but you know, our goal is not to put a first or second year guy on a varsity contest.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you can see where we start to get strained.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we're we're fortunate.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of a lot of the chapters are going the other direction, but we are actually growing.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: When you uh you bring a new official in, they obviously start at a certain level and you kind of graduate up unless your numbers are low, and then that that may uh progress a little bit faster.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: But you're not gonna go there theoretically.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: If I went in and said, Jim, uh, I want to be an official, and then two weeks later you're putting me on a varsity game.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I and I and from um I've been the rules interpreter now for I don't know 10, 10 years or so.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Before that, I was the person who on our first six or seven weeks of the season, first and second, your guys go into a separate classroom, right?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Smaller, smaller size, um, better, better environment to ask questions and and and teach things from fundamentals.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to joke with guys, I'm like, here's the good news, bad news.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: The bad news is you're not getting, you know, probably Vestal UI, your first game.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the good news is you're not getting Vestal U varsity your first game, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna start you off and give you some youth games, and we're gonna have active guys working with you.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then as we start into roll into modified, you know, we start to get you into some modified games.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then based on your comfort level and and and we're progressing, you know, it's and we'll try to get you some JV games, you know, maybe the first year.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Again, surrounded by three active guys.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you we're we're not gonna let you make a mistake out there.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's guys out there, they're gonna have your back.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and we kind of we talk to the to the veteran guys like, hey, listen, we've got a we got a newer guy in the came.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's our job to to protect them and our job to stay with them and you know, and keep them, you know, in the game and comfortable and make sure nobody's getting on them and things like that.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we do that.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it it is it is, you know, by design, um, starting at lower-level football until you get your feet wet and then progressing up through as you go.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I uh one of your predecessors, Andy Anderson, uh, was the rules interpreter when I was coaching at high school.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I used to call him or send him emails or texts quite frequently, and a lot of it was around the the kicking game.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there was one scenario that uh I saw, I saw it at the NFL, but I think it applies still to high school.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm a uh kick returner on a kickoff.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm back saying at the I feel the ball, or no, I the ball's bouncing.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's kicked and it's bouncing to me about the five, hits about the five-yard line and kind of bounces around down to about the two-yard line.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if I go out of bounds without touching the ball, I literally put myself out of bounds and I reach in and I touch the football.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's that used to be like if the ball went out of bounds.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: It actually that is in um that would in college level be considered a kick out of bounds, and it would go to the 35 or you know, 25 yards from the previous spot or the 35 yard line.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, uh or fortunately, depending on look at it, in high school, that's actually illegal.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's illegal participation.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we had we had a player at Maine Endwell, and I think, you know, watch a lot of college football.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thought if he stepped out of bounds and grabbed the ball, and um was gonna get the ball back up to 35.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Not, you know.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I think that might have been a teaching moment on us.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think we we might have we might not have enforced it uh on sportsmen like our the, I'm sorry, legal participation on that one.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was just, you know, a kid, whatever.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we we I we may or may not have enforced that, but I and it is an illegal substitution uh or a legal participation play to do that.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: It makes sense to say it's a legal participation because you're you're out of bounds and you're reaching into the field of play and touching a live ball.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: It does, but and that's where a lot of the confusion comes.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think a couple years ago I did a series on I think Fox 40 about, you know, a little blip every every Friday or something about you know the rules and and different things.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there is a lot of differences between high school football and, you know, like for instance, there's there's no such thing as an uncatchable ball in high school, right?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's pass interference where whether the ball is, right?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there are things like that that a lot of you know, football fans watch a lot of Friday night or you know, Saturday afternoons and Sundays, and you know, the rules there that oh some doesn't really necessarily trickle down to high school football.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that really wraps everything up, Jim.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Great coverage on everything, and also if people wanted to get involved, they know how to do that now.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: So continue to do what you're doing.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: We really appreciate that.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because, like we say, if there's no stripes, it's not official.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we really appreciate that.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much and best wishes for a healthy and happy season.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks very much for having me.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Tell your friends to visit cover4.com and be the next fan up.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Your inputs are never out of bounds.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: In football and life, it's not where we line up, it's where we wind up.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Cover Four podcast.