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STSE# 83: Should We "Save Them All"? · Sometimes There's Side Eye

• 0:12
  Welcome to Sometimes There's Side Eye, a podcast about two
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  friends having real and unfiltered conversations about
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  dogs and people listen as we talk about our lives with dogs,
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  training, behavior, share some laughs and a whole lot of
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  banter. I'm Heather.
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  And I'm Christy. What are we talking about this
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  week, Christy? This week, we're talking about
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  the Save Them All movement and what that means for dogs in our
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  community and people. Kind of where we stand.
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  Yeah. And.
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  What do we think? Christy, what do you think,
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  Heather? Oh no, this is your topic so.
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  You have to. Start off.
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  I would like to say this is not my topic.
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  I just asked if we had done this before and I do think on several
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  episodes we've. Touched.
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  On we've addressed, yeah, touched on the, the save them
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  all movement and kind of where we stand on it.
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  I think we have a similar stance the two of us.
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  I would say I you gotta go ahead.
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  I feel like this topic is relevant right now because we
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  just did an episode on mandatory spay and neuter, which came up
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  because of things that are going on with the Miranda Sanctuary
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  rescue situation in California where there are a lot of missing
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  dogs presumed dead. And then or in a case where
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  there's a big dog fighting bust or there's a pandemic, you know,
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  anything that affects dogs at large and people, I feel like
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  the topics, the big topics come and re re emerge, you know, And
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  so after last week's or our last episode, Christie said to me,
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  Hey, have we ever done save them all?
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  And I'm like, I mean, not technically.
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  So I think that it's worth dedicating a little bit of chat
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  time to talk about this topic and why we feel the way we feel
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  about it. So here we are.
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  And it feels really weird to like that anyone would not be on
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  board with Save Them All. Of course we want to save every
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  dog. That would be the goal.
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  What could possibly go wrong with that?
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  And that's where Heather and I come in and say there are some
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  problems with Save Them All. And can I just can I just also I
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  feel like save them all and no kill sort of go hand in hand,
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  like having a no kill shelter. So I just wanted to kind of note
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  that they sort of go hand in hand and we're kind of talking
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  about that belief system as a whole.
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  And we'll probably use those two.
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  Interchangeably. Yeah.
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  Yeah. So carry on, Christy.
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  Yeah, I, I am often surprised, I'll be honest, that anyone who
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  has volunteered a significant amount in rescue or worked in
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  rescue is pro no kill or save them all.
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  Because I think Heather and I have seen some things in rescue,
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  in sheltering where we've said I don't think that dog should be
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  released to the public. I wouldn't want that dog to live
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  next to me. And I definitely don't want just
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  a random member of the public to have that dog.
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  Isn't that so key? That's such a key piece because
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  the average person, when you think about all the people who
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  are going to rescue, and when I say rescue, I mean adopt A dog
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  from a municipal shelter, a private shelter, a private
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  rescue group, all breed rescue, I don't care rescue.
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  When the average people who are going to rescue are people who
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  are just looking for a family pet, that's what they're looking
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  for. And the expectation when they go
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  look for that family pet is that this animal is safe.
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  Yeah, that feels like a low bar, I'll be honest.
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  And it feels like something we should definitely be meeting.
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  I, I think a lot of people don't realize that, you know, the, the
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  world's top trainers, even if every top trainer in the US only
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  adopted dogs, it would still be a fraction of the amount of
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  people adopting from the shelter.
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  So we don't have millions of trainers coming forward and
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  saying, well, we just want to adopt your hardest case so that
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  we can change them. What we have is your next door
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  neighbor, your grandma, your mom.
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  Your brother, Your nephew. Your grandchild, all those
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  people who are saying I just want to give a home, a really
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  great loving home to a great loving dog.
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  And that's what I want people to get at the shelter.
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  And I'm not against. I'm not saying shelter dogs have
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  to be perfect by any. No, no, or.
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  Never have a behavior issue. I do think we have to be very
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  honest about if we know what those behaviors issues are that
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  we have the, you know, that we address them or let people know
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  what they're getting into. And I, I think different
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  behavior issues for different people matter more or less.
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  So I do think you can fit the right person with the right
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  behavior issues, so to speak. You know, like somebody.
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  Shall we call them quirks? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  And it may be, oh, this dog hates children.
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  Well, guess what? The person who is adopting them
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  also hates children. And yeah, but that's fine.
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  You know, they're not going out of their way to attack children.
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  They just don't like them, you know?
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  And and we may be able to find the perfect fit for that now
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  when we have a dog who is hunting children.
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  Well, that's different. That's different and we
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  shouldn't be releasing that into the public, no, and we shouldn't
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  be advocating for them to sit be saved.
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  No, and we shouldn't let them sit in a shelter for hundreds of
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  days. For what?
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  Yeah, what I find a lot of people think is that there's
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  these really great sanctuaries that are somewhere out there
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  that all these really tough dogs can go to and live on 100 acres
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  by themselves, but those don't exist.
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  I mean, they see best friends, so they think, well, there's
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  like hundreds and hundreds of places like best friends out in
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  the world. And and surely there are plenty
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  of farms where a dog can go and have place to run and not come
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  into contact with people with other people or neighbors or I
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  mean, these, these it's like, it's like the Unicorn places,
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  right? Do they exist?
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  Sure, but. Are they plentiful?
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  Number. Are they plentiful #1 #2 do the
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  people that own them, are they under some contractual agreement
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  to take these dogs? No.
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  They also doesn't have great dogs.
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  They do. It's like I say, and I've said
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  before, can I deal with XYZ behavior problem?
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  Yeah. Do I want to?
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  No, I don't. I'm tired.
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  And even if I'm not tired, I don't have to.
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  We are all entitled to have what we want to have, right?
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  But. But thereby comes the honesty as
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  well, yes. Yeah.
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  Honesty on our part about what we're capable of and what we're
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  willing to take on, and then honesty on the part of whomever
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  you're getting the dog from. I don't care.
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  Adoption, purchase, whatever. There there is the the element
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  of honesty there. I don't want this episode to
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  feel like we're busting on shelter dogs because it's really
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  not about that. It's about us as humans doing
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  right by dogs and right by our communities.
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  And that's really what why save them all?
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  And no kill grinds my gears because it's like this mantra.
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  And it's like, well, what does that really mean?
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  Have you thought about it? Yeah, and here's the thing.
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  What I found is a lot of places that say save them all, we also
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  have these rules about not taking in aggressive dogs.
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  So they say save them all, but don't put them, don't give them
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  to us. We won't take a dog that has
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  nine bites. Don't give me the hard cases.
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  So don't give them to me, but you should save them all.
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  Yeah. And I don't know where.
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  Like where do people think that those resources are coming from?
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  But that's also a way for places to be able to have good stats in
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  regards to no kill, right? And and then get more funding
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  and and be able to be like we are the saviors because they're
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  not taking the hard cases and the car that the dogs that
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  should be euthanized. And we're going to say dogs like
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  there's cats too. There's all animals, right, that
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  are not behaviorally OK, we're a dog, but we're a dog, we're dog
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  people. So they're not taking the cases
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  that they then have to quote UN quote, do the right thing by.
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  And so then it allows them to keep their numbers really tight
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  and pretty and go by the no kill movement.
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  So that's another reason why I think no kill and save them all
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  go hand in hand and I just hate them both.
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  Yeah, yeah. And I think sometimes when
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  people think of sanctuaries, they think, oh, this dog can
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  just live its days out in a sanctuary, but that takes a lot
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  of money. I have a friend who says who did
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  send a dog to a sanctuary situation that she couldn't.
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  She had him short term as a foster trying to kind of
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  intercede for him. She knew it was way above her,
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  her level of availability for him.
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  She did find a really great place for him, sanctuary for
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  him. But then she she sponsored him
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  the rest of his life. Really.
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  So that was her commitment was not like a down payment not but
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  like monthly payments to sponsor this dog.
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  And they don't have a lot of people who do that, but they
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  need that because honestly, if you think about it, people say
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  like, Oh, well, I gave this rescue $5000 to take my dog or
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  the sanctuary $5000. It's not the last the life of
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  that dog, $10,000 is not going to last the life of that dog.
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  So you have to think about where are they going to get funds
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  then? And some of them are really
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  great about using social media to get funds or, or being well
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  recognized within the community. But also there's not.
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  There's a lot that don't do that.
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  But OK, here's where I am going to be the extreme What are we
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  keeping those dogs alive for? Yeah, so in this situation, it
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  wasn't an aggression issue. It was the dog was paralyzed on
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  the back end, still full of life, still super happy, but she
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  knew she couldn't care for it full time the way it needed.
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  These people have experience and specifically take in dogs like
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  that and have revamped their home to do to have that, to have
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  it easily accessible for dogs with disabilities.
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  I don't. So so the dogs living in a home
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  now like. In a sanctuary, OK Sanctuary is
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  also a home. OK, OK I guess I guess that
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  feels better. I just, I really struggle with
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  us as humans having dogs in sanctuaries living isolated
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  lives. I guess that would be aggression
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  cases and and dogs that can't right that can't live safe in
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  our society and being sent to a sanctuary to live a isolated
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  life for what? Like I just, I don't get it.
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  Just so we as humans can feel better that they're still
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  breathing. OK, devil's advocate.
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  Sure, always. I mean, is it different than
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  people who maybe do breedings and keep their dogs in kennels
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  runs? I'm, I don't know, I guess it
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  depends on the circumstances. How how are they interacting
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  with their dogs? Are they working their dogs?
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  Are they are they rotating their dogs in their home?
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  It's like, what does that look like?
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  I think that there are people who can do that really well and
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  people who can do it really poorly.
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  And but but. And I think the same thing with
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  sanctuaries. If you look at Best Friends,
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  they do it really well Where they have dogs who get out on
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  hikes and go to overnight stays with people and all these
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  things, and they do get a lot of attention.
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  And I don't think those dogs are wanting.
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  Like when we took a dog from Best Friends and it stayed
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  overnight with us. When we got back, it was like
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  peace out, I'm home. I love that place, but that's
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  like, this dog is happy to be back.
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  Best Friends is the cream of the crop, yes.
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  It is the IT. Is it really is.
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  And so I guess for me too, if somebody's breeding and like
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  you're saying with a kennel setup and whatever, they are
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  responsible for their dog. They are not where they have 500
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  dogs and there's an overpopulation.
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  It's, it's their personal dogs that they are producing or
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  purchasing and then caring for and doing whatever.
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  Whereas do we have an overpopulation of dogs that are
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  not, can't safely live in homes? Clearly we do.
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  I mean, we do. And and they an overpopulation,
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  but we do have a population of dogs.
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  That are. Are not safe to be in home, I
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  would say kind of so if I think about volunteering in the
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  shelter, I would say I met thousands, hundreds of really
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  amazing dogs, like hundreds of just the best dogs ever.
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  And I can remember probably 4 that I was very concerned about.
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  So 4 out of hundreds like I don't think an overpopulation,
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  but that is that is a population.
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  Would you say it's fair that you've only met those dogs in a
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  snapshot of time and only a snapshot of circumstances, so
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  you don't really know who they are and what they can handle?
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  Oh, absolutely. Yes.
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  OK. I think I, I, I get into this
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  weird place where I want to err on the side of safety for humans
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  and our community, right? Sure, I don't want to say at all
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  costs, but damn near all costs. And then I get in this weird
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  place of where I'm like well to me personally I would rather
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  have a dog have a peaceful rest forever then not get to live a
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  life with. A good life.
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  Like I don't want them to struggle.
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  I don't want, I don't want dogs. Like what?
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  Do you mean like you don't want them in a a kennel bouncing off
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  the walls just for to say the fact we saved them and then they
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  yeah, we spent 10 years. I, I, I just I I cannot get OK
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  with that. Yeah, and and that's what saved
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  them all. And no.
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  Kill is. To a degree, if you extrapolate
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  it, that is where we are. And then if we are so hell bent
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  on making sure every single dog, every single dog that comes
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  through the shelter is adopted out, there is no way that we are
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  not putting unsafe animals into our communities.
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  There's no way. Yeah, because if you interacted
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  with hundreds and there were four, let's extrapolate that to
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  the population of shelter dogs across the country.
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  You know what I'm saying? That's scary.
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  And that's. I mean that right there is why I
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  have an issue with it. I, I think one of the litmus
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  tests we always used at the shelter was just the simple
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  thing, like, would I be comfortable with this dog living
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  next door to me? And if we said no, then like,
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  maybe we shouldn't be pushing this dog, you know, out to the
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  community. I will never forget.
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  I don't know if you were there when we were doing scent work
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  for shelter dogs and the shelter asked me to do it with a
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  specific dog that had been a long timer and was really
• 18:09
  struggling in its kennel. And the dog did great at scent
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  work, but the dog also I I had to basically it went for me and
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  thankfully I was a skilled handler and straight armed my
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  arm so that his body was away from my body and he did not get.
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  Me, we were so young and we were so fast.
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  And we were so fast. That talk scared the shit out of
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  me. Yeah, yeah.
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  And, and there was one like, yeah, that I went for a guy,
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  Like a member of the public bent down to say hi.
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  And I saw the dog going. And another volunteer had the
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  dog. And I saw what was happening.
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  And I grabbed that leash before it could get to the guy's face.
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  And I was like, this dog is not safe for the public.
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  Yep. Yeah, I mean, I remember walking
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  through and one of the behavior team people would always come to
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  me and say we got a Rottweiler, can you come and see it?
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  And would want to know my opinion because it was my breed.
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  And a lot of people have a really hard time reading
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  Rottweilers for whatever reason. And so I would always go and see
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  them and be like, because I don't want a shifty Rottweiler
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  on the streets for so many reasons, not just because I love
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  the breed, but because they're a big fucking powerful dog.
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  They. Are, yeah.
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  And nobody wants that going wrong.
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  So yeah, it's just tough. I I get back to this whole I
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  don't understand the mentality of I don't care.
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  I will put every single dog up ahead of any human.
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  Yeah. And we're not those people.
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  We, we value human beings. We value their life and their
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  their comforts too, their their right to safety in their own
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  homes, in their neighborhoods, all of that.
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  Their children, the neighbor's children, whatever I.
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  I don't even like kids, but I think they deserve to be safe.
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  I mean I think they deserve not to be attacked by a freaking dog
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  from the neighbor like. Come on.
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  I don't like kids either, but I don't want them getting
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  attacked. Unless you're a friend with
• 20:32
  children and then we like your kids.
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  Christy I don't have friends with children for a particular
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  reason. No, seriously, I was like, I
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  can't. I think all my friends.
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  Actually, that's not true. I did.
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  I did just think of a friend with children that I like.
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  So we're all good. There you go.
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  No, but seriously, I, I really, really just struggle with with
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  that. And, and I think you bring up an
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  interesting point of how are you a shelter volunteer or shelter
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  worker or rescue, whatever? We're kind of throwing them all
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  in the same hat and you've never encountered that one dog that
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  made you question just one. That one dog that made me
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  question is save them all really, really working here?
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  Is this dog the dog that could change the way you think about
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  what's OK and what's not? I also.
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  Think sometimes like the idea, sometimes the idea of something
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  is. Is better and makes.
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  You feel happy, but better than what?
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  The reality of that thing is, whether they're about to save
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  them all or you know, the guy you have a crush on or whatever.
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  Like it's just a getting a. French bulldog it all like this
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  seems like a good idea. Why wouldn't it scream it's a
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  French bulldog? But I also think a lot of times
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  with that concept, people are not willing to do what they
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  expect other people to do. So they want save them all and
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  they want someone to take that really aggressive dog, but not
• 22:15
  them because that would be unsafe with their Pomeranian or
• 22:19
  in their neighborhood or with their children.
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  But they want someone to take that.
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  Someone should take that burden on.
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  It just can't be them for a variety of reasons.
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  And I understand that that you can't take that on.
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  But also I don't I and this is not just with docs.
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  I so strongly believe this. I don't think we should be
• 22:42
  telling people to do things we ourselves are not willing to do.
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  I have a perfect example. I helped with the Texas 200,
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  which ended up being much more than 200 in Texas in 2012 and it
• 22:58
  was basically the hoarding mass breeding operation and all of
• 23:04
  the dogs were at the Houston Humane Society and the.
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  You helped on the rescue and not yes.
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  I helped on. Oh God, yeah, I helped on the
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  rescue end. We had just moved to Texas and
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  the Rottweiler Club of America came in and was coming through,
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  assessing the dog, stepping in, helping with the rescue efforts,
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  blah, blah, blah. So I was helping assess the
• 23:28
  dogs, give the dogs IDs, all that shit, and there was this
• 23:32
  one dog that was a problem. He was going to be extremely
• 23:38
  difficult to place because he had behavioral problems and he
• 23:44
  was even hard to handle and it was a problem.
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  And there was a particular volunteer who was just out
• 23:53
  flipping out about the potential of this dog being euthanized.
• 23:57
  And we had to make hard choices about those dogs.
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  You're taught. I mean, before puppies even
• 24:04
  happened, we had over 200 Rottweilers from a Monday to a
• 24:08
  Tuesday. Boom, 200 Rottweilers.
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  And this dog was not highly adoptable.
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  We couldn't move him across the country.
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  He had to. They all had to be moved to
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  different areas. And this woman just was.
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  And so of another volunteer whipped around and looked at her
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  and said if you want to save him so bad, you take him.
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  And this woman said Oh well I can't for XYZ.
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  Just right. And the other volunteer and
• 24:38
  looked at her and said, then I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do
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  here. And I was a person who voted for
• 24:44
  him to be euthanized and he was euthanized.
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  And it was the right call. So it's a perfect example of
• 24:50
  what you're saying. Sometimes.
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  Hard decisions have to be made and unless you are going to step
• 24:57
  up and say I'll be the person to take this dog, which would have
• 25:01
  been would have been a terrible choice, then like what are we
• 25:06
  doing? What are we doing and I do.
• 25:09
  Have a kind of an example the other direction, my foster,
• 25:12
  Julius, when I met him, I, I was like, man, he's a good dog.
• 25:17
  I really like him. Yeah.
• 25:20
  And I the behavior that was noted, I knew what they were
• 25:25
  saying. Like he, they said he was
• 25:27
  lunging at the door and I was like, that's not lunging to me,
• 25:30
  that's jumping. He's very excited coming out the
• 25:33
  door to be let out. And I was like, I don't see that
• 25:36
  as aggression at all. They noted some other things,
• 25:39
  just his hair bristled when you touched him and he he did.
• 25:43
  But it wasn't to me, it wasn't aggression.
• 25:46
  It was like a lack of human contact.
• 25:48
  And he was just so stimulated. Couldn't help it.
• 25:52
  Like his hair would bristle and he'd get excited and he was just
• 25:55
  so happy to have human contact. And so I saw all these things.
• 25:58
  And when I read his notes, I was like, I so strongly disagree
• 26:02
  with this evaluation of him needing to be put to sleep.
• 26:06
  But also, he was a huge dog in a little kennel.
• 26:10
  And I, I knew that wasn't fair. I knew he, it wouldn't be long
• 26:14
  before he went downhill. So I did step in and say, you
• 26:17
  know what? I I'm going to trust my gut.
• 26:19
  I think he's a good dog. I'll step in.
• 26:22
  I would like to foster him. And because he was already on
• 26:25
  the euthanasia list, they denied me.
• 26:28
  Yep, the county denied me and I was like, well I don't know that
• 26:33
  I have other options. And luckily another trusted
• 26:36
  rescues ended up stepping in literally at the last minute,
• 26:40
  within the last 59 minutes of his life, stepped in and then,
• 26:45
  yeah, well, and they took him in and they said we want to
• 26:48
  evaluate him ourselves 1st. And then once they had evaluated
• 26:52
  him, they said, yes, OK, you can foster him through us.
• 26:55
  So, and that's an example of, hey, I, I don't agree with this
• 27:00
  evaluation. I'm going to put my money where
• 27:02
  my mouth is and step in and say, I really believe in this dog.
• 27:07
  And what would you have? Done.
• 27:08
  If it had gone wrong, if he had been an aggressive dog.
• 27:13
  I would have been honest about it if he was aggressive.
• 27:16
  I would have said when I was way off, like, yeah.
• 27:20
  So two things. One, I think there's a lack of
• 27:24
  education and I understand that volunteers are volunteers,
• 27:27
  right? And, and we need to be grateful
• 27:29
  for everything but the behavior team.
• 27:32
  We probably need to have good educated people in the behavior
• 27:37
  team. And, and I understand they don't
• 27:39
  get paid enough. It's not Gloria's job.
• 27:41
  Like, I get all of those things, but but still the IT can still
• 27:44
  be true that we need to have good educated behavior people.
• 27:48
  We also need to have good, educated, honest behavior
• 27:52
  people. If if Julius was a danger, you
• 27:57
  would have gone back to that rescue and said he is a
• 28:00
  dangerous dog and they would have done the right thing.
• 28:03
  Yep. Yeah, they.
• 28:04
  Would have they would. Have.
• 28:06
  Brought him back, evaluated him, done training to see it, you
• 28:09
  know, see if that changed anything.
• 28:12
  But so. Julius is a success story
• 28:16
  because you followed your gut, but at the same time there were
• 28:19
  things that were failures that should be like kind of basic
• 28:23
  things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think.
• 28:27
  If you're going to be, hey, you have to save them all.
• 28:30
  There's no way for you personally to save them all.
• 28:33
  But I think you also need to be honest that that there's no way
• 28:38
  for all anyone to save them all because those dogs don't belong
• 28:43
  in your everyday neighborhood with your everyday owner.
• 28:48
  And I think I think we would be wise to to realize that.
• 28:53
  I don't know. I think we just.
• 28:54
  Would be wise to kind of take a really serious, deep look at the
• 28:59
  state of dogs overall and how do we do right by our communities,
• 29:05
  our humans and our dogs alike. And sometimes that's making
• 29:11
  really, really hard choices that we don't want to make.
• 29:13
  But it's the right choice at the end of the day.
• 29:17
  If there is a dog who's got issues, that is not safe.
• 29:22
  The best thing for everyone, the dog included, is for the dog to
• 29:28
  be euthanized. And that's a reality of where we
• 29:32
  are. You know, not everyone makes it.
• 29:34
  Like, that's sad, but it's true. Not everyone makes it.
• 29:38
  And so we just have to be like a bit more honest as a community
• 29:44
  about what we want our community to look like.
• 29:48
  Yeah, I also think, I think the the all and how you raise them
• 29:52
  kind of gets lumped in there too, that maybe we can fix all
• 29:57
  of the dogs through the right training or enough love.
• 30:01
  Every dog is fixable. And I don't know, correct me if
• 30:05
  I'm wrong, I'll defer to you because you would know better on
• 30:08
  the breeding end. But do you feel like breeders
• 30:11
  understand that sometimes things just aren't wired correctly?
• 30:15
  Or do you think there's Yeah, I I.
• 30:18
  Think that there are some, I think it's not 5050.
• 30:21
  I don't know what the average would be, but I think most do
• 30:24
  understand that and that the ones that don't understand that
• 30:28
  are wearing rose colored glasses that it's like it never happened
• 30:32
  to them sort of thing. I also do think that it depends
• 30:35
  on breed. Because like.
• 30:39
  For you to have a pug that has severe aggression would be like
• 30:43
  super fucking wacky and that's just not part of their
• 30:46
  temperament. Whereas so whereas A pug person
• 30:50
  would be like this is an anomaly.
• 30:52
  Like I'm not OK with this because it's really against
• 30:54
  their breed. They actually I think would be
• 30:58
  more tend to be like we're going to call that out immediately,
• 31:02
  whereas somebody who's breeding an AM staff, an American
• 31:05
  Staffordshire terrier would be more accepting of it because
• 31:08
  it's in their heritage. So I do think it depends there
• 31:11
  too. Yeah.
• 31:15
  I I think about the people, like you said, that are like, well,
• 31:20
  we can love it out. We can train it out.
• 31:22
  We can, we can fix it right. And that just makes me think
• 31:27
  about all. I mean, I've probably read
• 31:30
  hundreds at this point of stories on losing Lulu, the
• 31:34
  behavioral euthanasia support group page.
• 31:37
  And if you read five of those stories and all of the things
• 31:43
  that people did to try to quote UN quote, fix their dogs, it is
• 31:49
  on believable. I mean, the the lengths that
• 31:54
  these people went to to try to make it work.
• 31:57
  Years, some thousands and thousands of dollars, ten
• 32:02
  different veterinarians, trainers, you know, completely
• 32:06
  adjusting their lifestyle, no longer having people in their
• 32:09
  home, just the ends of the earth.
• 32:12
  And at the end of the day, they're on that page because
• 32:15
  they could not save that dog. Nothing could save them, right?
• 32:19
  So clearly we have a problem and breed doesn't matter.
• 32:23
  Origin of those dogs don't matter.
• 32:25
  There are dogs from ethical breeders on there.
• 32:27
  There are dogs from shelters. There are dogs from the
• 32:29
  reservation. There are dogs from other
• 32:31
  countries. There are dogs from everywhere.
• 32:34
  Sometimes shit just goes wrong. And.
• 32:40
  And. It's not always just, it's not
• 32:42
  always because the puppy was abused.
• 32:46
  I think. That's a misnomer, like everyone
• 32:48
  thinks. Oh, well, it's it's all in how
• 32:51
  you raise them. It's, you know, and maybe they
• 32:53
  can't get past that abuse. Well, I think it's.
• 32:56
  Not that fault, but also. I take offense to.
• 32:59
  That because I busted my ass to raise Lucy with every single
• 33:03
  thing that I could, socialization, training,
• 33:06
  everything, and she's aggressive, was aggressive,
• 33:09
  right? So like I take issue with that.
• 33:12
  I did everything and genetics were not on my side.
• 33:15
  And so I agree, like you, it's not all in how we raise them.
• 33:20
  And I'm a person who used to say that I I didn't know better.
• 33:23
  I thought that I was part of that whole culture, and then it
• 33:29
  happened to me, yeah. I would say Trish Mcmillan's
• 33:32
  very clear. She had a puppy she raised from
• 33:35
  the moment it was born, kept it and it was extremely aggressive
• 33:41
  to the point she put it to sleep.
• 33:43
  And then she has this dog fighting dog who is just a dud
• 33:49
  in the dog fighting world. Really.
• 33:51
  Genetics were on his side to be aggressive, all the things.
• 33:55
  Right, we don't he. Was an anomaly in the other
• 33:58
  direction that you know, and she, she said people would tell
• 34:02
  her all the time, Oh, it's all in how you raise them.
• 34:05
  And she's like his owner. His first owner isn't jail for
• 34:10
  abusing and killing dogs. It's not how you raise them.
• 34:15
  Yeah, she's like, yeah. And here he is.
• 34:17
  In my house with chickens, yeah, if you.
• 34:20
  Bring up Trish thinking about which we haven't brought this up
• 34:24
  in a while, actually thinking about her story of the perils of
• 34:28
  adopting out marginal dogs. I'd probably just butchered that
• 34:31
  once again. And we can link it.
• 34:33
  I'll link it. But there there is a price to be
• 34:37
  paid right when we save them all.
• 34:42
  And. That means that there is a dog
• 34:45
  that goes into the community with a family that is dangerous,
• 34:49
  and dangerous can mean whatever it means to you.
• 34:52
  If that dog is unsafe in our community and those people
• 34:56
  adopted that dog, you now have that dog.
• 35:02
  Just like Lucy was a wonderful ambassador for adopted pit
• 35:06
  bulls, that dog is a terrible ambassador for adopted shelter
• 35:10
  dogs. And all of the people that know
• 35:13
  that dog's story and interact with that dog and feel unsafe
• 35:17
  around that dog are now having an experience that could
• 35:21
  potentially stop them from adopting in the future.
• 35:24
  And that, if nothing else, can get you to wrap your brain
• 35:29
  around why save them all does not is not a good idea.
• 35:33
  That alone, if you are a shelter dog advocate, that should do it.
• 35:39
  You're going. It's stopping people from
• 35:40
  adopting. Yeah.
• 35:43
  Yeah, in the grand scheme of things, we want to help dogs out
• 35:49
  large. We want to make the world better
• 35:52
  for all the dogs and their community.
• 35:54
  But people and dogs alike, oh, now they're animals.
• 35:57
  All the animals alike, you know? But when we when we forgo the
• 36:06
  safety of 100 dogs to save one, I was just.
• 36:12
  Thinking that. Doing the right thing?
• 36:15
  Yep, When we sacrifice. Many for the sake of one.
• 36:18
  What do we do? What are we gaining?
• 36:20
  What are we doing? Yeah.
• 36:23
  If you've enjoyed this episode, subscribe, rate and share us
• 36:27
  wherever you get your podcast. Also, come on over to Instagram
• 36:31
  and engage with us at Sometimes Their Side Eye.
• 36:34
  Thanks for listening. Everybody talk to you next time.
• 36:38
  Bye. Bye.