Latest / The Word On Demand / Open Line with Dr. Michael Rydelnik - Hour 3: November 7, 2026 - Opposing Christian Antisemitism

Transcript

Open Line with Dr. Michael Rydelnik - Hour 3: November 7, 2026 - Opposing Christian Antisemitism · The Word On Demand

0:08
S1: Hello friends. It's time for another hour of Open Line
0:11
S1: with me. Doctor Michael Reidenbach, professor emeritus of Jewish Studies
0:15
S1: and Bible at the Moody Bible Institute. This is Moody
0:18
S1: Radio's Bible study across America. It's where generally we answer
0:23
S1: your questions about the Bible, God, and the spiritual life.
0:27
S1: Today's a little different. There's only pre-recorded hours today, and
0:31
S1: that's because we're holding a conference right now at Moody
0:35
S1: Bible Institute. It's the Moody Bible Institute summit opposing the
0:40
S1: new Christian anti-Semitism. And because of that, we are pre-recording
0:45
S1: what's happening here. And so if you'd like to post
0:49
S1: a Bible question or a question about God or the
0:52
S1: spiritual life, you can go to our website, Open Line radio.org.
0:56
S1: Click on the link that says Ask Michael a question.
0:58
S1: That question will then get placed in the mailbag and
1:02
S1: Tricia will bring it up. Or someone, Tricia will put
1:05
S1: it in there. I think someone will bring up your
1:08
S1: question in weeks to come. Uh, and, uh, now, as
1:15
S1: I said, the reason this program is pre-recorded and I
1:18
S1: have a special guest that's going to join me is
1:22
S1: because we are holding a summit opposing the new Christian antisemitism.
1:29
S1: And I don't even like to call it anti-Semitism. I've
1:33
S1: mentioned this before. Uh, anti-Semitism is a word that Wilhelm
1:37
S1: Maher came up with in 1879 because he thought that
1:41
S1: the German word that was used sounded vulgar, and he
1:44
S1: wanted to make it sound more scientific and more palatable.
1:47
S1: The word in German was judenhass Jew hatred. And I
1:51
S1: think we need to go back to saying that in
1:53
S1: all its vulgar sounding sense, uh, but Jew hatred by Christians.
1:59
S1: This is not really new. There's a long history of
2:03
S1: Christian anti-Semitism. If you go back to the Church Fathers, uh,
2:09
S1: whether in the second, third, or fourth centuries, they are
2:12
S1: open in their hatred of the Jewish people. One in particular,
2:15
S1: a very, very important speaker, John Chrysostom. Uh, John golden mouth,
2:21
S1: that's what it means. He was considered the golden mouthed preacher,
2:23
S1: the greatest preacher of the Eastern Church. He said, God
2:26
S1: always hated the Jews. It's incumbent upon all Christians to
2:30
S1: hate the Jews. And the basis of so much of
2:34
S1: this hatred and ancient in the ancient church that was
2:38
S1: then applied with murderous ferocity in the medieval church was
2:45
S1: replacement theology the theology that says that God is through
2:52
S1: with the Jewish people because they rejected Jesus and that
2:55
S1: he is going to replace Israel, has replaced Israel with
3:00
S1: Christians with the church. And that really held sway in
3:04
S1: the church up until about the 19th century. Some people
3:07
S1: in the 19th century, in the Anglican Church in in
3:12
S1: Great Britain began to move away from it. Uh, they
3:15
S1: began to see a future for Israel. Uh, there's a,
3:19
S1: there's always been a stream within the church that said, no,
3:22
S1: the Jewish people, ethnic Israel, have a future with God, uh,
3:26
S1: because they read the scriptures, but really seemed to close
3:31
S1: out replacement theology was the Holocaust after Hitler used replacement theology.
3:40
S1: It's hard to believe, but the Nazis really did use
3:43
S1: replacement theology to get so many German Christians to back
3:47
S1: this attack on the Jewish people. And then, as Hitler
3:51
S1: conquered Eastern Europe, many Catholics and, uh, other traditions joined
3:57
S1: in in the hatred. Well, and it was only because
4:01
S1: he was manipulating them. He didn't believe this. Uh, because
4:04
S1: he was completely Satanist. He was not a genuine Catholic,
4:08
S1: but he used Christian replacement theology to get people on board. Well,
4:15
S1: because of that, after the war, after the Holocaust, the
4:20
S1: church seemed to be moving away from, uh, this idea
4:26
S1: of replacement theology. In fact, I was at a conference
4:29
S1: in the year 2000. It was the Evangelical Theological Conference, uh,
4:33
S1: Evangelical Theological Society. And a great theologian got up and
4:37
S1: said that replacement theology, this is 25 years ago, 26
4:41
S1: years ago, only continues on its own momentum, that there's
4:46
S1: really no one behind it anymore. Well, this issue has
4:50
S1: exploded again, and it's not normal replacement theology. There's always
4:54
S1: been some replacement theology. It believes that the church has
4:58
S1: replaced Israel, but there's there was always a hint that
5:00
S1: there's a future for the Jewish people. One day that Israel,
5:03
S1: the ethnic Jewish people, would put their faith in Jesus. Uh,
5:07
S1: there is also this idea that even so, Jewish people have, have,
5:13
S1: are to be reached with the good news, and they're
5:15
S1: not to be persecuted. So there is a benign replacement theology.
5:20
S1: What's happened in recent weeks is an explosion in recent years,
5:24
S1: the last year or two, an explosion of replacement theology.
5:29
S1: And to talk about that with me today, I have, uh,
5:33
S1: a guest doctor, Everett Ripper, who is the president emeritus
5:38
S1: of Oklahoma Wesleyan University. He's not a Jewish studies professor.
5:43
S1: He's not someone that's been actively involved in Jewish ministry.
5:47
S1: He's just someone who loves the Bible and therefore wants
5:50
S1: to reflect what it teaches. and he and I met
5:54
S1: under some. Well, we have never even met personally, but
5:58
S1: we've encountered and engaged with each other over some unusual things.
6:01
S1: That's what we're going to talk about. Now. I just
6:02
S1: want to say thank you so much for joining me
6:04
S1: about this really important topic, Doctor Piper.
6:08
S2: Hello, Michael. It's good to join you again. Thanks for
6:10
S2: having me on your show.
6:12
S1: Ah, I'm so I'm so glad that you're joining me today.
6:15
S1: You know, I think it's a good idea. Let's talk
6:17
S1: about how we first began to engage with each other. Um, what, how?
6:23
S1: I think it's kind of funny because I wrote a
6:25
S1: book called How Should Christians Think About Israel? And it
6:28
S1: was offered by moody publishers online, uh, Moody Bible Institute.
6:33
S1: And what happened?
6:35
S2: Well, I saw it and I requested it by making
6:38
S2: a small contribution to Moody Bible. And I also have
6:42
S2: used it in some of my social media engagement. You know,
6:46
S2: as president emeritus of Oklahoma Wesleyan University, I think God
6:49
S2: has granted me a bit of a platform and I'm.
6:53
S2: I'm an odd duck. Michael. I'm a conservative. You can't
6:56
S2: find very many university presidents out there that will proudly
7:00
S2: say that. But I've always felt that a conservative is
7:03
S2: a conservationist, somebody who conserves those things that are given
7:07
S2: to us by God. Those beautiful things. Yes, I believe
7:10
S2: in clean water and clean air. I'm a conservationist when
7:14
S2: it comes to that. But I also believe in conserving
7:16
S2: the time tested truths of God. And I believe that
7:19
S2: was the original mission of the Academy, that we shall
7:22
S2: know the truth, and the truth shall set us free.
7:25
S2: If you go all the way back to Oxford a
7:26
S2: thousand years ago, that's the point. The point was, a
7:30
S2: liberal education would liberate us because it would give us
7:33
S2: that freedom that we find only within the boundaries of
7:36
S2: God's revealed truth. So that's who I am. And I'm
7:40
S2: not afraid to speak that boldly in the market square
7:43
S2: of ideas and in the ivory tower. And I'm a
7:45
S2: little bit of a of an anomaly, if you will,
7:48
S2: because I do that. So I have a platform out
7:52
S2: there where I write and I speak into culture from
7:55
S2: this perspective and, um, confronting some of the anti-Semitism that
8:01
S2: has just risen so aggressively in recent days, um, with
8:06
S2: ideas out of your book as well as just my
8:08
S2: basic understanding of scripture. Mhm. You know, so.
8:12
S1: You know, what I, what I think is so interesting,
8:14
S1: you actually held up my book. I think I was
8:17
S1: scrolling one day on my social media and I saw
8:21
S1: you holding I didn't know who you were even except
8:24
S1: after I saw your name. I remembered a column you
8:26
S1: wrote a number of years ago for The Washington Times
8:29
S1: that I loved and posted in the Moody Faculty Lounge.
8:31
S1: It's not a, it's a, it's a university, not a
8:35
S1: not a daycare. That's what it was. Not a daycare.
8:37
S1: It's a university. And after I saw your name, I said,
8:40
S1: I know that name. But anyway, you held up the
8:42
S1: book in a picture and you pointed at it and
8:45
S1: you wrote, read this. What happened when you wrote.
8:48
S2: I said, read this book. And as a result, a
8:51
S2: lot of people agreed. But. So many disagreed. And I
8:58
S2: need to put that in context. Michael, you know, we
9:01
S2: all acquire our social media following, and usually those that
9:04
S2: follow us agree with 99% of what we say. And
9:08
S2: that's probably true for my world. I would assume it's
9:10
S2: true for your world. You know, we have a troll
9:13
S2: every once in a while that'll poke at us and
9:15
S2: try to get us off track. But you know, most
9:18
S2: people in my social media world, whether it be Facebook
9:21
S2: or whether it be X, Twitter, whatnot, they agree with me.
9:25
S2: That's why they follow me. Well, I found this unusual
9:28
S2: number of people that responded to that post when I
9:30
S2: just simply took a picture of your book and I said,
9:33
S2: read this good Bible believing, born again Christians started challenging me,
9:41
S2: and I was stunned with the anti-Semitism that was just
9:44
S2: rife in their comments. And when I would push back
9:47
S2: and say, wait a second, wait a second. Do you
9:49
S2: believe that God's promises are true or not? They would
9:53
S2: get angry and they would start lecturing me, and they
9:55
S2: would start down a rabbit trail of what clearly seemed
9:59
S2: to me to be driven by some of the big
10:03
S2: names in the media world right now that are rabid
10:06
S2: in their anti-Semitism and are very divisive. Yeah. You know.
10:11
S1: So, you know, I, I had a similar experience when
10:15
S1: moody publishers began to or Moody Bible began to offer
10:19
S1: the the book on social media. I there were people who,
10:22
S1: you know, thumbs up. And there were a lot of
10:24
S1: people who were in the moody world that that liked
10:27
S1: it even like you bought a copy. But what I found, uh,
10:32
S1: was that there was an unbelievable explosion of people who
10:36
S1: were clearly professing followers of Jesus. They were from the
10:41
S1: evangelical world, and they had this angry, hateful attitude. They
10:47
S1: spread all kinds of vile statements about Jewish people, uh,
10:51
S1: being satanic and Jewish people being bloodthirsty. And I, I
10:57
S1: was flabbergasted. I began to save the comments, and after
11:00
S1: a while I thought, I can't save these anymore because
11:02
S1: there I was saving them because I wanted to address them,
11:06
S1: but I, I couldn't believe what I saw in terms
11:09
S1: of comments because of the, the surprising, hateful attitude that
11:14
S1: was coming from the, the fingertips as they typed from, uh,
11:19
S1: from what was seemed to be evangelical Christians. So we're
11:24
S1: going to talk about that, uh, that, that angry replacement
11:28
S1: theology that you encountered in just a bit, but we're
11:30
S1: going to take a break here. When we come back,
11:33
S1: we'll talk about that with Doctor Everett Piper, my guest.
11:35
S1: I'm Michael Ray Dolnick. No calls today. Uh, it's a
11:39
S1: prerecorded program, but it's a really important one. I hope
11:41
S1: you'll stick with us talking about this angry replacement theology.
11:45
S1: how it leads to hatred of the Jewish people. We'll
11:48
S1: be right back. So don't go away. Christmas is a
12:02
S1: season when even skeptics are more open to spiritual things.
12:05
S1: So why not give them a gift that points to
12:07
S1: the real reason for the season? The case for Christmas
12:10
S1: by former atheist Lee Strobel shows that the Christmas story
12:14
S1: isn't a myth or a legend. It's rooted in real history.
12:17
S1: It's the perfect book to pass on to a skeptic.
12:20
S1: We'll send you a copy with your gift of any amount.
12:22
S1: Call us today at 8886447122 or visit openline radio.org. Welcome
12:35
S1: back to Openline. I'm Michael Wright. And it's a special
12:39
S1: pre-recorded program today without any calls. But I do want
12:45
S1: you to keep listening. It's very important. I have a
12:47
S1: special guest, Doctor Everett Piper, who is the president emeritus
12:52
S1: of Oklahoma Wesleyan, but he's also a columnist for The
12:56
S1: Washington Times. And I think it's through your column, Doctor Piper,
13:02
S1: that people have reacted to you not just through social media. Well,
13:06
S1: did you want to mention something about that?
13:09
S2: Yeah, I've covered this topic in 2 or 3 different
13:13
S2: articles in The Washington Times over the last couple of months. Um,
13:17
S2: one in particular, there was, there's a prominent, um, spokesperson
13:23
S2: out there and I know we want to stay away
13:25
S2: from names on your show. So I'm in deference to that.
13:27
S2: I'm going to be speaking anonymously in code.
13:31
S1: Okay. There we.
13:31
S2: Go. There's a prominent individual out there who's. I listen
13:36
S2: to him periodically. He's followed broadly. His language is vulgar.
13:40
S2: He's not a Christian in any shape or form. In fact,
13:42
S2: he's a proud atheist. But on the issue of Israel
13:46
S2: and the Jews, he's absolutely right. Because he understands that
13:52
S2: the Jews have the right to have their own state,
13:55
S2: their own security, their own piece of property, and that
13:58
S2: they have the right to defend that when they're attacked.
14:01
S2: So he harkens back to October 7th of a couple
14:04
S2: of years ago, and he says, well, of course, this
14:07
S2: country that has its sovereignty, has its property, has its borders,
14:11
S2: has the right to defend itself. If it's if all
14:14
S2: of that is breached. And he has it right. And
14:17
S2: as the result of that, he has taken flack, much
14:20
S2: like you and I are taking from the anti-Semites that
14:24
S2: are both secular and atheistic as well as Christians are
14:28
S2: disagreeing with this. So the odd mixture of facts here
14:32
S2: is that this vulgar atheist is defending a biblical truth
14:37
S2: more aggressively than a lot of self-declared and self-identified born
14:42
S2: again Christians.
14:43
S1: By the way. I think it's great. People should know.
14:46
S2: He understands the importance.
14:47
S1: People should know who this is. This atheist who's doing
14:50
S1: such a good job defending Jewish people. Sam Harris, I believe.
14:54
S1: Isn't that who you're talking about?
14:55
S2: Well, no, I'm talking about Bill Maher. But Sam Harris
14:58
S2: is doing.
14:58
S1: Bill Maher to Sam Harris, to both of them. Yes,
15:01
S1: I agree.
15:01
S2: Bill Maher is absolutely right. And he's calling out people
15:05
S2: that are so irrational and disparaging of the Jewish population
15:10
S2: simply because they have an emotional hatred for the people,
15:14
S2: as opposed to approaching it from a logical perspective in
15:16
S2: terms of a nation's sovereignty and its right to defend itself.
15:19
S1: Yeah, yeah, both of those guys, they're amazing to me
15:23
S1: that two atheists, Sam Harris being a prominent atheist, Bill Maher,
15:27
S1: being a comedian, have a firmer grasp on morality and
15:32
S1: right than many evangelicals that I've seen in in media.
15:37
S1: And it is remarkable, don't you think?
15:41
S2: Exactly. And what I found is there's some of the
15:45
S2: people that have previously been part of the conservative political
15:49
S2: establishment have deviated from that establishment and actually become divisive, uh,
15:55
S2: to the extreme, quite frankly. I think we see that
15:58
S2: in the recent election results. Mhm. They are so anti-Semitic
16:02
S2: in their. And I know you don't want me using anti-Semitic.
16:05
S1: Hatred of Jews. Let's let's call it what it is. Right. Okay. Yeah.
16:09
S2: So this this anti-Semitic nomenclature is so much a part
16:14
S2: of who they are now that they while they're disparaging Jews,
16:18
S2: they actually lean into elevating Islam. And one particular person
16:23
S2: has had a theologian, quote unquote, who is a Baptist
16:26
S2: preacher from Montana. He's had this guy on his show,
16:30
S2: and he's featured him as the consummate theologian on all
16:33
S2: things Israel and all things Islam. And this Baptist preacher
16:39
S2: on the show actually said that Israel has been very
16:44
S2: cruel to Christians, whereas quote unquote, Muslim rulers have historically
16:50
S2: been very kind. So in the process of disparaging Israel
16:54
S2: and the Jews, he actually elevates Islam as being superior
16:59
S2: in terms of the way they've treated Christians. And I
17:01
S2: wrote an article on that, and I said, what in
17:02
S2: the world are you talking about? Islam has a 1400
17:06
S2: 1400 year history of impaling and crucifying and beheading Christians.
17:11
S2: Why in the world? Or how in the world would
17:13
S2: you ever come to the conclusion that Muslims have a
17:17
S2: better history of being kind to Christians than do Jews?
17:22
S2: And that I've had quite an exchange with that gentleman
17:25
S2: as a result of my commentary on that.
17:27
S1: You know, I'm going to say something here. I think
17:30
S1: it's really important to understand this, that, uh, Israel, the
17:34
S1: state of Israel, has the only growing Christian population in
17:39
S1: the entire Middle East. I had a neighbor in, uh,
17:45
S1: in Chicago when I lived in Chicago. He was a
17:48
S1: Christian Arab from Bethlehem. And he was lamenting one day
17:51
S1: as we were chatting, uh, about the declining population of
17:55
S1: Christians in Bethlehem used to be 80%. Now it's about,
17:58
S1: he said, about 15 or maybe 10%. And I asked
18:02
S1: him about that. Uh, why did it happen? He was
18:06
S1: telling me about the persecution by Islam. Palestinian Authority persecuting them.
18:10
S1: And and I said, wait a minute. I keep hearing
18:13
S1: that it's Israel doing it. And he said, oh, no, no, no,
18:17
S1: it's the PA, it's the Palestinian Authority. But I said, well,
18:20
S1: why do people keep saying it's Israel? He says, uh,
18:25
S1: he puts his hand on my arm. Oh, my brother,
18:28
S1: don't you know if if we don't say it's Israel,
18:32
S1: they'll go kill our families. I thought, that's living with reality.
18:38
S1: They have to say that. And now I don't think
18:42
S1: Israel is perfect. There was occasions, uh, there was a
18:45
S1: missed a misfired missile that hit a church in Gaza,
18:50
S1: damaged it, uh, didn't destroy it, just damaged it. And
18:53
S1: there was some, uh, strange, unusual Israelis that attacked a
19:00
S1: statue of Jesus in Lebanon when they went in there
19:04
S1: to deal with Hezbollah. Uh, those are anomalies. That's unusual.
19:10
S1: I'll tell you what's different, though, is that the government
19:12
S1: of Israel apologized for both those acts. Uh, you don't
19:17
S1: hear apologies coming from Islamic countries that attack Christians or
19:22
S1: from Hamas that attacks the Christians in Gaza. You don't
19:26
S1: hear apologies about that. Those were inadvertent things. And just
19:30
S1: a really stupid soldier. And his group of troops with
19:33
S1: him acted stupidly. Now, I have relatives in Israel and
19:40
S1: I talk with them about this stuff. They can't stand
19:43
S1: that very small percentage of Jewish people that don't like Christians. Overall,
19:48
S1: Israelis love and welcome Christians. They think of Christians as
19:53
S1: one of the great boons to Israeli society. But what
19:56
S1: happens with guys on media? They take one event like
20:00
S1: the the statue or the church being damaged. And isn't
20:03
S1: that what they go for when they when they say, oh,
20:06
S1: Israel and Jews are persecuting Christians, that's what they're doing.
20:09
S1: They're taking anomalies and making it normative, don't you think?
20:13
S2: Yes they are. Yeah. And this Baptist pastor that I'm
20:15
S2: referring to that was interviewed by this prominent, quote unquote
20:19
S2: conservative who has shown his anti-Semitic cards in recent days.
20:23
S2: He commented that his example of Jewish mistreatment of Christians
20:31
S2: is the taxing of a given church or a given
20:34
S2: church building. And that may be true. Maybe Israel as
20:37
S2: a nation or as a state, does tax a church
20:40
S2: in a different way than the United States would do,
20:43
S2: because we have separation of church and state, and churches
20:46
S2: are tax exempt in the United States, as I understand it.
20:49
S2: That may not be the case in Israel, but if
20:52
S2: there is a tax imposed on a given church building
20:55
S2: or a synagogue or whatnot in Israel, that doesn't mean
20:59
S2: that the state is has animus toward that particular, uh, faith,
21:04
S2: that particular congregation. Uh, I think you would agree with
21:08
S2: me on that, Michael.
21:09
S3: Well, yeah, I actually think.
21:10
S1: That Israel's policy about, uh, taxation of, of churches, mosques
21:16
S1: and synagogues are it's identical for all three. No one
21:20
S1: is being mistreated or treated differently. Jews, Christians, Muslims are
21:25
S1: all being treated the same in Israel. Uh, they just
21:28
S1: have different laws than we do. I think that they
21:30
S1: only pay real estate taxes, not, uh, like income taxes.
21:35
S2: Uh, and it's interesting to hear you say that. And again,
21:38
S2: it confirms the research that I have done, and that
21:41
S2: is wait a second. You've got a different tax structure
21:43
S2: in Israel than you do in the United States. And
21:45
S2: then cherry picking your information for the sake of making
21:48
S2: an anti-Semitic point on a national broadcast where you say, well,
21:52
S2: the Jews tax the church of the Holy Sepulchre, look
21:55
S2: how evil the Jews are for doing that. Whereas the Muslims,
21:59
S2: they don't. And this is a direct quote, the Muslims
22:01
S2: don't tax Christians. Well, my land, you've got the jizya tax,
22:06
S2: you've got the tax, you've got the blood tax, you've
22:09
S2: got the various different taxes that have centuries of tradition
22:12
S2: of Christians and Jews being mistreated at the hands of
22:16
S2: Islam through attacks. And that's gracious, I guess, because those
22:20
S2: people that were taxed unfairly by Islam were the ones
22:23
S2: that were fortunate enough to live and not be put
22:25
S2: into slavery and or killed as a result of Muslim
22:28
S2: the Muslim expansion. So again, this is this is a terrible, um,
22:33
S2: this is a terrible way to portray. History. And they
22:36
S2: do it because they want to diminish Israel and make
22:39
S2: Israel look bad. To the extent that they'll even elevate
22:42
S2: Islam above it.
22:43
S1: Now, this doesn't just affect Israel, though. I think this
22:46
S1: is interesting. Uh, they attack Israel. But then how does
22:50
S1: it make them treat Jewish people in the West, in
22:53
S1: the United States, Canada, Europe? What's their how do they
22:57
S1: kind of they they take it a little bit further
22:59
S1: than Israel, don't they?
23:01
S2: Well, absolutely. You're seeing it right now where, uh, I'm
23:07
S2: going to take a risk here. I'm going to mention
23:08
S2: this name in a positive fashion. So I don't think
23:10
S2: it's a it's a, it's a risk. I mean, you
23:12
S2: look at Ben Shapiro. I admire Ben Shapiro. He does
23:15
S2: a great work. I admire Dennis Prager. I think he
23:17
S2: does a great work. Well, these people that have done
23:21
S2: great work in terms of promoting a biblical ethic. Now,
23:25
S2: am I arguing they're born again? No I'm not. They deny.
23:28
S2: They deny the. The deity of Jesus Christ. They deny
23:33
S2: that it's only through Christ alone that you can be saved.
23:36
S2: But they do have an understanding of the conservation of
23:39
S2: a biblical ethic and a biblical worldview in the context
23:42
S2: that it is that ethic that gives human beings more
23:44
S2: freedom rather than less. I admire them for that. And
23:48
S2: I stand, like Francis Schaeffer would call upon us to
23:50
S2: stand in co-belligerence for them in the defense of marriage,
23:54
S2: in the defense of the dignity and the definition of
23:56
S2: a woman in the defense of children that should not
23:59
S2: be executed at the hands of Planned Parenthood. Yes, I'll
24:02
S2: stand with Dennis Prager or Ben Shapiro in that cause.
24:06
S2: But yet those guys are being diminished, and they're these
24:10
S2: anti-Semitic conservatives are actually taking pleasure in hurting their ministry.
24:15
S2: And they broadcast the numbers that are negative from these
24:20
S2: particular Jewish voices, as if the body of Christ, the
24:25
S2: kingdom of Christ, is accomplishing something by diminishing the impact
24:29
S2: of Ben Shapiro or Dennis Prager have in our culture.
24:32
S2: I don't see that as a good thing. I see
24:34
S2: that as evil, I think. I don't think that is godly.
24:37
S1: Yeah. And I think it's actually going even beyond the
24:40
S1: public figures like who I have great regard for Dennis and,
24:43
S1: and Ben. And I've had some engagement through the years
24:47
S1: with Dennis Prager, and I find him a very, um,
24:50
S1: exemplary person. And I don't know Ben personally, but I
24:55
S1: listen to him and I see the impact that he
24:57
S1: has for good. But you're right. But you know what?
25:01
S1: We're seeing a broader attitude that any Jewish person that
25:07
S1: still stands with Israel or a Christian for that matter,
25:10
S1: like yourself, uh, Everett coming under attack. Uh, so it's
25:16
S1: not just Israel, you know what I mean? It's it's
25:20
S1: not just attacking Jewish people or the state of Israel.
25:25
S1: It's talking about Jewish people, not just prominent ones, all
25:28
S1: Jewish people. And not only that, any Christian that aligns
25:33
S1: with opposing antisemitism are facing some heat as well. So anyway,
25:38
S1: we're going to come back there. We'll be back in
25:40
S1: just a moment and we'll talk more about how this
25:43
S1: is affecting our society today. Stay with me and my guest,
25:48
S1: Doctor Everett Piper. This is Michael Ray Dolnick on Open Line.
25:59
S1: I'm so grateful that the Far Eastern Broadcasting Company partners
26:03
S1: with Open Line to bring you the weekly Febc mailbag.
26:06
S1: Far Eastern Broadcasting Company is a terrific organization. They bring
26:10
S1: the good news to people via media and personal engagement.
26:14
S1: Check out the Febc podcast until all have heard featuring
26:19
S1: Ed Cannon, president of Febc. By going to febc.org. That's febc.org. Org.
26:36
S1: And we're back. I'm Michael Ray Dolnick. With me today
26:39
S1: is Doctor Everett Piper, president emeritus of Oklahoma Wesleyan University.
26:44
S1: We're getting his take on the explosion, the resurgent anti-Semitism,
26:50
S1: the hatred of Jewish people, not just, uh, in the
26:56
S1: radical left, which we thought, but the horseshoe, the radical
26:59
S1: right evangelicals are embracing this. And, uh, before we go
27:04
S1: back to talking with Doctor Piper about this, I wanted
27:09
S1: to mention even a pre-recorded program like this takes a team. Omar.
27:13
S1: He's here. He's recording it. Tricia put this whole thing together.
27:17
S1: She's the one that connected with Doctor Piper to get
27:20
S1: him set up to be on here with me. Uh,
27:23
S1: it is always a team effort on open line. And
27:27
S1: I couldn't do this without this great team here. And
27:30
S1: because of that, I appreciate all of you who listen.
27:32
S1: You're part of the team too. Really appreciate you even
27:35
S1: listening to the program. Remember when I started, I thought
27:38
S1: the only person listening to Open Line would be Eva,
27:40
S1: my wife. And she still does listen. But nevertheless, I'm
27:43
S1: grateful for all of you. And then some of you
27:45
S1: have given occasionally to open Line, I appreciate it. We
27:49
S1: have a great resource this this month and next. It's, uh,
27:54
S1: The Case for Christmas by Lee Strobel. And with a
27:58
S1: gift of any size, we'll, uh, send you a copy
28:01
S1: of that to say thank you. And then also, uh,
28:04
S1: I appreciate everyone that joins us, kitchen table partners sitting
28:08
S1: around the kitchen table with me talking about the Bible.
28:11
S1: They say we want to give monthly so Open Line
28:15
S1: can be on the air weekly. We appreciate that so much.
28:18
S1: We send out a Bible study moment every other week
28:20
S1: to them, and audio Bible study exclusively for them in
28:23
S1: their email, and I just so appreciate it. If you've considered.
28:28
S1: If you've never considered but would like to now becoming
28:31
S1: a kitchen table partner, that would be so great. We
28:33
S1: really appreciate it. All you have to do is call 8886447122. 8886447122.
28:43
S1: Or you can just go to our website, open line radio.org.
28:47
S1: And now we're going to talk. Uh, Doctor Piper and I,
28:50
S1: here's something I wanted to talk with you about because
28:52
S1: of your background as a university president. Uh, I was
28:57
S1: talking to a student at a university here in my town,
29:03
S1: and this student said to me that there was so
29:07
S1: much vile hatred of Jewish people as a really fine
29:11
S1: Christian college, but he was in the dorm and he
29:13
S1: kept hearing this, and he finally just spoke up and said,
29:17
S1: you can't do this, guys. He's in the men's dorm.
29:20
S1: And he spoke up and all the guys got on him,
29:23
S1: and they basically have isolated him and stopped talking to
29:26
S1: him because he spoke up. And so I started talking
29:29
S1: to friends of mine who are at different Christian universities
29:31
S1: as professors or, or academic deans or even deans of students.
29:37
S1: And they're saying this is becoming widespread among Christian, mostly
29:42
S1: the men, uh, the young men in these universities. What
29:47
S1: do you think's going on with that? I, I was
29:49
S1: flabbergasted to hear that. Uh, and it's even at schools
29:53
S1: that don't teach replacement theology. What do you think, Doctor Piper?
29:58
S2: Um, this is a different show for a different time,
30:01
S2: but I, I'm a critic of my own industry and
30:03
S2: I think I have the right, maybe even the responsibility
30:07
S2: to look at my own industry, the academy, the ivory tower,
30:11
S2: and to assess it for what it is. And for
30:13
S2: years I have said that the ivory tower is becoming
30:17
S2: the Tower of Babel. It's crumbling. It is falling down.
30:20
S2: And I don't say that just about the secular academy,
30:23
S2: the state universities. I say that about the Christian colleges, too,
30:26
S2: because there aren't very many Christian colleges left that actually
30:31
S2: believe and teach the inerrancy of Scripture, that the Bible
30:35
S2: says what it says and it means what it means,
30:37
S2: and it is the Word of God without exception. That's
30:40
S2: a very simplistic, layman's way for me to say it,
30:43
S2: but that's okay. I'm not a theologian. I am a layman.
30:46
S2: I believe it because the Bible tells me so. Now,
30:49
S2: are we responsible for understanding context? Yes, sure we are.
30:54
S2: Any good reader that has any education at all understands
30:56
S2: that the Bible needs to be read in context, and
30:59
S2: that prose or prose and poetry is poetry. Prescriptive literature,
31:03
S2: proscriptive literature, prophecy, parables all of this is context, but
31:07
S2: it's all true. It's all the revelation of God inspired
31:11
S2: by the Holy Spirit. And we need to take it
31:13
S2: to the bank now to hear that kind of language
31:15
S2: within the Christian college community is unusual. Many Christian colleges
31:20
S2: have abandoned inerrancy and they actually disparage it.
31:24
S1: Can I jump in here and say, Thank God, that
31:26
S1: Moody Bible Institute that's an essential at Moody Bible Institute?
31:30
S2: Absolutely. And Moody stands somewhat alone in doing that. So
31:34
S2: that's why I respect Moody. And here's the thing. When
31:38
S2: you start teaching students that the Bible is not fully true. Okay.
31:44
S2: That it's only inspired in matters of salvation. And that's
31:47
S2: what some of the institutions are teaching right now. It's
31:51
S2: inspired and it's true in matters of salvation, period. And
31:55
S2: then the sentence is over. Well, what does that say
31:57
S2: about everything else? What's that say about the history of
32:00
S2: the Jews, for example? Does that mean that we're supposed
32:04
S2: to honor what Paul says in his epistle to the
32:07
S2: Romans when he says, boast not against the branches? He's
32:10
S2: clearly telling Gentile Christians that are born again and part
32:14
S2: of the body of Christ that they should not become
32:17
S2: arrogant and they should not boast. Not against who? The branches,
32:21
S2: the Jews, their brothers and sisters in Christ don't boast
32:25
S2: against the branches. And to use. Uh.
32:28
S1: Well, actually, you know what? When it says the branches,
32:30
S1: it's talking about Jewish people. Some branches were broken off.
32:33
S1: Some who believed in Jesus remained on that in that
32:36
S1: figure in Romans 11. But even then, he doesn't want them,
32:40
S1: even against the Jewish people who don't believe. What Paul
32:43
S1: is saying there is don't boast to get them. They.
32:47
S1: They are the root of your faith. Don't boast against them.
32:51
S1: You know, I think that's so important to remember. Uh,
32:54
S1: I but that's that's not taken very seriously, is it?
32:59
S2: No. In fact, I would put a contemporary Piper paraphrase
33:03
S2: spin on that, if you will, if you'll grant me
33:05
S2: a little latitude here, you're sawing off the branches upon
33:08
S2: which you sit. So these conservative Baptist preachers that are
33:12
S2: preaching anti-Semitism now and boasting against the branches, they literally
33:17
S2: are sawing off the the biblical branch upon which they
33:21
S2: sent that their history, their theology, their biblical identity is
33:27
S2: being severed from the very trunk out of which they grew.
33:30
S2: And that is that. That's ridiculous. You're going to come
33:34
S2: crashing down. So that's what we're seeing in our culture
33:37
S2: right now. These people are crashing because of their severance from,
33:41
S2: you know, from the reality of the Word of God.
33:44
S1: So I do want to do it's a little bit
33:45
S1: of a tangent, but I think it's so remarkable because
33:48
S1: it relates to what you're saying here. Uh, what prompted
33:51
S1: you to write that column and a book later on about, uh,
33:54
S1: it's not a daycare. It was because someone came in
33:57
S1: and preached what, at your university that upset students?
34:02
S2: First Corinthians 13. Okay. They I had a kid that
34:07
S2: was upset about the quintessential passage, passage of love. Love
34:12
S2: is patient. Love is kind. It does not. Envy does
34:14
S2: not boast. A kid was upset when there was a
34:16
S2: chapel speaker that spoke on that issue because he felt guilty.
34:20
S2: He felt singled out and he felt he'd been triggered.
34:23
S2: There was a microaggression against him because because of the
34:27
S2: quintessential passage on love. And I thought, my goodness, if
34:31
S2: you're offended by that, the least offensive passage in all
34:34
S2: of the Bible, then you need to go to some
34:37
S2: other institution, because we're not going to water down the
34:40
S2: word and make you feel good about your sin. We
34:42
S2: want to confess it. We're not going to make you
34:43
S2: feel comfortable about it. And I said, grow up. This
34:46
S2: is a university. It's not a daycare. I'm not going
34:48
S2: to coddle you.
34:50
S1: That's one of the when you wrote that column about
34:53
S1: that event, I posted it in the Moody, uh, in
34:56
S1: the Moody Lounge for the faculty because I thought, that is.
35:00
S1: That's just what's happening. There's a generation that's being taught
35:03
S1: that you can't, uh, that you'll be triggered if someone
35:06
S1: says something that you don't agree with. And here's one
35:09
S1: of the things that I'm finding that I talked with
35:12
S1: the dean of this Christian college in in my area
35:17
S1: that that I heard about what was going on in
35:19
S1: the dorm with this young man. And he said, yeah,
35:23
S1: might be going on. I'm really kind of surprised, but
35:26
S1: maybe and didn't do a thing about it, didn't inquire,
35:29
S1: didn't look into it, didn't talk to the young man, didn't,
35:32
S1: didn't do anything. I think it's just because he thinks
35:35
S1: he's got bigger fish to fry than whether or not
35:37
S1: they hate Jews. And, and I think that's a problem
35:41
S1: for a university, in my opinion, uh, that that wants
35:45
S1: to teach biblical values to their students. And there is
35:49
S1: a biblical value about loving God's people. And we're going
35:52
S1: to the Jewish people. We're going to come back in
35:54
S1: a moment and talk about that. Uh, my guest today
35:57
S1: is Doctor Everett Piper, president emeritus of Oklahoma Wesleyan, uh,
36:02
S1: someone I have the greatest regard for. And we're also
36:06
S1: going to come back and talk about what can we
36:09
S1: do about this growing hatred of Jewish people? Uh, stay
36:13
S1: with us. This is open line with Michael Ray. Dominic.
36:31
S1: Welcome back to Open Line. My guest and I, Everett
36:35
S1: Piper and I have been talking about this resurgent hatred
36:39
S1: of Jewish people among followers, alleged followers of Jesus. And
36:45
S1: it's a perfect bridge. Before we go back to talking
36:49
S1: together to let you know about the current chosen people resource,
36:53
S1: they ask, do the ancient promises of God made to Abraham, Isaac,
36:57
S1: and Jacob still apply today? Well, the unbreakable Word of
37:01
S1: God says they do. And that's the message of Doctor
37:05
S1: Mitch Glazer's brief book, God's Plan and Purposes for the
37:08
S1: Jewish People. If you want to understand God's covenant promises
37:11
S1: to the Jewish people, don't miss this very short, very
37:14
S1: helpful book. It's yours. Free. Just go to Open Line radio.org.
37:19
S1: That's our website, open line radio.org. Click on the link
37:23
S1: that says A Free Gift from Chosen People Ministries, and
37:25
S1: you'll be taken to a page where you can sign
37:27
S1: up for your own free copy of God's Plan and
37:30
S1: Purposes for the Jewish people. Now, I do want to
37:34
S1: mention something else. People have been asking me, are you
37:37
S1: going to ever go back to Israel? And does? I
37:40
S1: think it's important. And we are going to go back
37:43
S1: in April of 2027. Uh, we just announced the trip
37:48
S1: and I couldn't believe in just a few days, it
37:50
S1: filled up by more than half. And, uh, but I
37:54
S1: did want to let you who listen, if you want
37:56
S1: to join me, it's going to be slightly different because
37:59
S1: besides being a place where we're going to look at
38:01
S1: the land and study the Bible on site, which we
38:03
S1: will do, but we're also going to go to the
38:07
S1: Nova site where the the Nova Music Festival was held
38:11
S1: where Hamas attacked and killed, brutally killed over 300 young
38:16
S1: people and who are celebrating there and having a good time.
38:20
S1: And also, we're going to go into Gaza envelope. We're
38:23
S1: going to look at some of the things that happened
38:25
S1: there where Hamas attacked. And it's a time for solidarity
38:29
S1: with Israel. In a time when Israel is becoming more
38:32
S1: and more isolated. So if you're interested, go to Open
38:36
S1: Line radio.org. There's a link there about that upcoming trip
38:40
S1: if you want to join us, or you can just
38:42
S1: go to my personal website and click on the link there,
38:45
S1: but that's Michael ray.org. It's also posted on the Open
38:49
S1: Line website, but Open Line radio.org. That's the best place
38:52
S1: to go for that. Well, Doctor Piper, uh, I'm so
38:57
S1: glad you called me Michael, because I can call you
38:59
S1: Everett then, so please. Here's here's the thing. You are now,
39:07
S1: and you've always been. You're not a theologian, you're a layman.
39:11
S1: And your understanding of Scripture about the Jewish people. Uh,
39:15
S1: it's so, so true. But here's my question. Why would
39:22
S1: I have two questions as we go out? This is
39:24
S1: our last segment. One is, why do you think, uh,
39:28
S1: the fact that some social media types would or podcasters
39:35
S1: promote this hatred that evangelicals would fall prey to it?
39:39
S1: Do you think this is a resurgent hatred or was
39:42
S1: it always there under the surface? What do you think?
39:47
S2: I think I suspect I can't prove it because it
39:50
S2: has surprised me to be quite candid. Um, I kind
39:53
S2: of fancy myself as someone who's kind of on the
39:55
S2: front edge of ideas and social movements, and I can
40:01
S2: see them coming. I did not see this coming. This
40:04
S2: has jumped up and it has surprised me. I did
40:06
S2: not know that this latent anti-Semitism existed within the evangelical
40:11
S2: community on the left? Absolutely. In Islam? Absolutely. Uh, but
40:17
S2: in evangelical born again Christian communities, it stuns me that
40:21
S2: it's there. I think it's latent. I think it's been there.
40:24
S2: I think people have been teaching this quietly for some time. Otherwise,
40:29
S2: I don't see it mushrooming and exploding as quickly as
40:32
S2: it did. It's as if they've been given permission to
40:36
S2: come out of the closet, so to speak, and express
40:38
S2: their replacement theological views, which are just laced with anti-Semitism
40:44
S2: and a in a strange reading of Scripture, one that
40:46
S2: I think is foreign to what the Bible really says.
40:49
S2: And when someone like me, a layman, speaks up and says, well,
40:52
S2: wait a second, I think God made himself pretty clear.
40:55
S2: He's promised the Jews these given things, and he says
40:58
S2: it's an everlasting commitment, promise, and covenant. I think everlasting
41:03
S2: means exactly what it says. If the Holy Spirit would
41:05
S2: have wanted a different word than everlasting. He would have
41:08
S2: chosen a different word than everlasting. Everlasting means everlasting. I
41:12
S2: can walk and chew gum at the same time. God
41:15
S2: can keep his promise to the nation of Israel, and
41:17
S2: he can also establish his salvific plan through Jesus Christ alone.
41:23
S2: These two aren't mutually exclusive, and if I say that
41:26
S2: as a layman, they automatically brand me a Zionist. So
41:31
S2: I am as disdained and I am held in in, uh, well.
41:36
S1: They've redefined Zionism. So, so that it means something negative
41:40
S1: when it just means the Jewish, the right of Jewish
41:42
S1: people to self-determination in their homeland. That's it. But anyway.
41:46
S2: I responded that way to one critic. I said, okay, yeah,
41:49
S2: I believe that Israel has the right to a piece
41:51
S2: of property with borders and the right to defend it
41:54
S2: if attacked. That's the definition of Zionism. So what's your
41:58
S2: problem with that? I proudly wear the label, I guess,
42:00
S2: if that's what you mean. Yeah. So yeah.
42:03
S1: Yeah. So, you know, there was a physician, doctor, Arthur
42:06
S1: W Keck, who wrote quite a bit for Moody publishers
42:08
S1: and other Christian publishers in the 60s and 70s. And
42:12
S1: he once wrote that hatred of the Jewish people is endemic.
42:17
S1: And I had to go look that up. But an
42:18
S1: endemic disease is something that is sort of under the
42:21
S1: surface all the time. And then periodically, he said, it
42:25
S1: explodes into epidemic proportions. And that's how disease is. There's
42:29
S1: some viruses that kind of lay dormant. They're there, but
42:32
S1: they're not really active. And then periodically they explode. And
42:36
S1: and that's what I think this is. I think it
42:38
S1: was always there as you as you just said. Um,
42:42
S1: but also after October 7th, this is something I just,
42:46
S1: I just read a book and I found out about this.
42:49
S1: There were social media bots that had prepared all sorts
42:56
S1: of attacks on Jewish people and Israel, and they just
43:02
S1: unleashed them In mass from places they're actually coming from
43:07
S1: places like, uh. Us, the Soviet, the former Soviet Union,
43:14
S1: some of the former states, particularly Russia, they're coming from Qatar.
43:18
S1: They're coming from all sorts of places that just unleashed these.
43:23
S1: These bots unleashed all sorts of propagandistic falsehoods about Jewish people.
43:28
S1: And it just seems that so many young people, these
43:32
S1: university students, even Christian university students, where they're getting their
43:36
S1: information from, from social media, from TikTok. And, and I
43:41
S1: think the combination of this underlying endemic, uh, problem, along
43:49
S1: with this explosion of social media hatred, I think they
43:54
S1: combined together to move young Christian men, particularly, uh, what
43:59
S1: do you call them? Theo? What's, uh.
44:02
S2: Theo Bros.
44:03
S1: Yeah, I'm.
44:05
S2: Not the one who coined that term. I've heard it
44:06
S2: used for some of these, and I put it in
44:09
S2: air quotes, conservative, primarily Baptist pastors. And I'm not disparaging Baptists,
44:14
S2: you know, people here that I was president of Oklahoma
44:16
S2: Wesleyan University. I'm actually a member of a Southern Baptist
44:19
S2: church right now. So lest your listeners.
44:21
S1: I'm a member of a Baptist church myself, which, you know, so.
44:25
S2: Yeah, when I say these, these Baptist ministers, it's kind
44:28
S2: of a self self-reflection here because I am a Baptist
44:31
S2: right now. I'm a member of a Baptist church, a conservative,
44:34
S2: Bible preaching, expository Baptist church that believes the Bible is true.
44:39
S2: And then when I hear other ministers from that same
44:42
S2: cut of cloth, supposedly elevating replacement theology above all else
44:48
S2: and all of their social commentary seems to be focused on, well,
44:52
S2: we shouldn't be supporting the Jews any more than any
44:54
S2: other country. And what they're doing is in Gaza is genocide. Well, no,
44:58
S2: it's not genocide. They're defending themselves against a against attack
45:03
S2: and invasion and what other people group in the world
45:07
S2: would you condemn in like fashion, if they simply defended
45:10
S2: themselves themselves against the invasion of their country and the
45:14
S2: slaughter of their own people? It's it's bewildering. Bewildering as
45:19
S2: to why you are you are attacking. You are criticizing
45:23
S2: the very people that were victimized by this terrorism in
45:26
S2: the first place. They've become the bad guys, and the
45:29
S2: good guys are the ones who intruded into their country
45:33
S2: and actually executed men, women and children alike, and then
45:36
S2: celebrated it on social media. And yet it's the Jews
45:40
S2: that are bad here, and it's everyone else in the
45:43
S2: world that has the right to criticize them. This makes
45:45
S2: no sense. It's good. It's it's what the prophet Isaiah
45:48
S2: warned us of calling good evil and evil good, bittersweet, sweet, bitter,
45:52
S2: and woe unto us when we reverse the definitions of God.
45:55
S2: And that's what even some of our churches are doing
45:57
S2: right now.
45:58
S1: I agree. Now here's my question. What is there? Is
46:01
S1: there anything we can do? Do we just lament? What
46:05
S1: do you suggest? Do you think?
46:09
S2: I think the truth prevails. I'm an academic. You're an academic?
46:12
S2: We are in the business. This is our chosen profession.
46:15
S2: Because we believe that teaching the truth ultimately will free
46:19
S2: the mind and free the soul. As that truth leans
46:22
S2: into the gospel in Jesus Christ. So we run into
46:25
S2: the storm. We do so boldly and proudly. We wave
46:27
S2: the banner of the truth of Christ and the truth
46:29
S2: of Scripture. If we win, great God's grace. But if
46:31
S2: we lose waving that banner. So what we need to
46:34
S2: be willing to go down fighting.
46:35
S1: We. We use our platform as best we can. Well, friends,
46:40
S1: thanks for listening. Thanks, doctor Piper, keep reading the Bible.
46:43
S1: We'll talk about it next week. Open line with Doctor
46:46
S1: Michael Riedel is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry
46:50
S1: of Moody Bible Institute.