Latest / Identity at the Center / #228 - How IAM Standard Sausage Is Made with Heather Flanagan of Spherical Cow Consulting

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#228 - How IAM Standard Sausage Is Made with Heather Flanagan of Spherical Cow Consulting · Identity at the Center

• 0:05
  This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
• 0:11
  AM, This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and
• 0:17
  Jeff Steadman. Welcome to the Identity at the
• 0:21
  Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
• 0:23
  Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff.
• 0:25
  How are you? Not so bad.
• 0:26
  You on a delay. I'm on a delay.
• 0:30
  It's already already. Are we on the lot?
• 0:32
  Of Sync. Yeah.
• 0:33
  OK Well, yeah, Had a good week. I put a post on LinkedIn today,
• 0:41
  and it might be a little while before this episode airs, but I
• 0:46
  got a lot of great feedback from listeners.
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  And I love our listeners, man. They gave a lot of good ideas
• 0:51
  for show episodes and show topics they'd like to hear more
• 0:55
  about. So real quickly.
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  The list at a high level was ITDR roles.
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  I got like 7 different D Ms. about you know roles in one way
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  or another, Blockchain identity, IGA for the middle market, Vault
• 1:16
  dynamic roles which was essentially like secrets vault.
• 1:20
  How do you know? Use leading practices for not
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  hard coding accounts into your scripts and using for your
• 1:29
  databases and things like that? Machine identity.
• 1:32
  How am I supposed to grab your password if you have it?
• 1:34
  Don't have it hard coded in your script.
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  You're not making it any easier. For me, not making it easier,
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  that is the that's the goal here.
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  Machine identities. And here's an interesting one.
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  NIST or ceases view on identities role in security.
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  So you're kind of getting that security view of, OK, we all
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  think identities at the center, but do these folks who are more
• 1:58
  broadly information security, do they see it the same way?
• 2:01
  What's their viewpoint? And then a couple of that I just
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  lumped in as project success stories, but some of these are
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  going to blow your mind if we actually can pull together
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  episodes on these. These are like projects that
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  you've actually heard of on TV. And I know you don't have TV,
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  you have like streaming services, but you may have heard
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  of some of them. Yeah, Okay, I'm interested to
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  see what you've got cooked up for here.
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  I'm not sure if I know all the different topics that you're
• 2:26
  you're thinking about, which is sort of how it works, right?
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  You're kind of like the the public outreach and kind of
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  figuring out we know where content.
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  And then I'm like the the massage behind that to get it
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  into hopefully a audio friendly format.
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  I don't know if your job's gotten easier, mine's gotten
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  easier. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
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  I know in the beginning I was like trying to convince people
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  like, oh, you know, hey, our podcast has had these two people
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  that you've heard of on it before, so maybe you'd like to
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  join us as well. And now it's gotten to the point
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  where people are reaching out to me much more often.
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  And when I, you know, approach, somebody usually don't have to
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  explain what our podcast is about because they're aware of
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  it, which is actually pretty. Definitely.
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  Off the backs of the best identity and access management
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  podcast listeners in the business, if I can qualify that
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  so much down to just that narrow niche market of people who are
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  in identity and access management who also listen to
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  podcasts. We have the best ones.
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  That's your objective reading, is that our listeners are the
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  best. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see
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  what comes up of some of these conversations.
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  Got it. There are some interesting
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  things that are being worked out there.
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  I like having conversations with, you know, real people in
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  the real world and really kind of understanding what it is they
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  work on and some of the challenges they face, Cuz I
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  think one does a couple things right, shows that it's not just
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  theory. These are actually things that
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  take place in the real world, not on a piece of paper and.
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  They're people aren't alone, right?
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  They're having, they're facing challenges.
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  And maybe some of those challenges draw parallels to
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  some of the work that people are doing in their own I M lives.
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  And maybe there's some Nuggets there that they can take back to
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  help improve their own I M capabilities for services or
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  program or whatever it may be. So I I do like those kind of
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  conversations where you can kind of pick the brain and say, oh,
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  how'd that work? You know, you know, what were
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  some of the challenges he had and what about this?
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  Have you seen that? And, you know, those kinds of
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  things. So I do enjoy those.
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  Yeah, I don't know what the statistics are in this these
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  days, but I know 10-15 years ago we used to talk about why I am
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  projects fail and they were failing at like a 50% clip.
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  And I just don't think that the failure rate is that high
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  anymore. And I think, you know, there
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  were probably a lot of factors, right?
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  We in fact, had a A blog article that you and I worked on on
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  reasons that I am projects failed.
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  I don't think they're as prevalent as they were in the
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  past, but I still think there's so much to learn from those
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  success stories. And it's really leaders, you
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  know, figuring out ways to overcome these challenges like
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  you you talked about. I don't know if I agree with
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  that. I don't know if they're getting
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  more successful or if it's becoming so important that it
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  just can't fail. Meaning the quality of the end
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  result maybe isn't what people expected because identity is so
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  important. Can it fail?
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  Yes, of course. Can you have a bad deployment, a
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  bad roll out? You know of whatever it is?
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  Absolutely. And I think that happens
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  probably with still regularity. Unfortunately, I think it has
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  gotten better, but I don't know if I agree that it's become more
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  prevalent, at least from my perspective.
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  We actually have two different, you know, opinions on it at this
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  point, but I don't know if it's gotten easier.
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  I think we maybe people are settling for a less desirable
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  end product as part of a deployment or a program or they
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  had to spend way more money and time than they originally
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  forecasted to get something out the door because it was more
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  complex or you know they ran into other headwinds were going
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  to be economy. COVID probably wrecked a lot of
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  things like things like that. Yeah, I wonder if if I am,
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  practitioners are running into some some less resistance on
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  certain things like 1520 years ago saying here's the idea,
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  we're going to have one username and password and it's going to
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  log into all of your applications.
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  It might even feel like that's not going to work here.
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  Nowadays you can say no, it works everywhere.
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  Everybody's doing it. We're going to do it.
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  Yeah, I think that's just kind of scratching the tip of it
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  though. It's like, OK, single sign on,
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  sure, MFA, we saw a lot more uptake with that, especially
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  with COVID people working from home.
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  It's like, OK, everybody who was really kicking the MFA can down
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  the curb kind of had to do something around the COVID times
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  for the most part. And now you still have like
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  basics, identity, governance, privilege, access.
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  You still have things out there on the authentications and
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  things. You got passkeys now, password
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  lists and other things. I don't know.
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  Now I will qualify my opinion as being jaded somewhat only
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  because and I think I've said this before, is like you don't
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  call and I am consultant when things are going great,
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  typically it's usually when things are not going as well or
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  you need help or advice or something.
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  So we tend to see the things that are not going well.
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  I'm sure that there are plenty that are and you know, maybe
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  that's just, that's my own personal experience.
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  No, that's great. And I think one of the great
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  times to talk about all this and learn about all this, obviously
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  the podcast, but there's also some great conferences that are
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  taking place. It seems like there are more
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  identity conferences these days than there were in the past.
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  We're going to be taking part in a few of them.
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  You want to kind of talk through some of the ones that you're
• 7:53
  going to attend and I'll talk about a few as well.
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  Yeah, I think the next one coming up for me is.
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  The Cybersecurity Midwest Summit.
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  That's the one in Cincinnati. OH, it is September 14th.
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  It's something that Com Spark and CDO magazine put out there,
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  something you do every year. I'm going to be part of a panel
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  discussing identity and access management.
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  I started working on sort of the outline for it last week and
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  have already forgotten it, so I need to go back and review it.
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  So there's that. So if you're going to be in the
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  Cincinnati area, you know, feel free to stop on by.
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  I'm not sure if it costs anything.
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  It might actually be free. Don't quote me on that.
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  But we'll have a registration link for folks are just in that.
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  I'm going to be at Identity Week America, October 3rd and 4th in
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  Washington, DC I'm going to be hosting a panel on passkeys.
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  So we're going to have a few different people.
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  Some friendly names for the show will be on that as well.
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  That one's kind of cool because we actually have a discount code
• 8:47
  for our listeners. If you use the code Ida C30 they
• 8:51
  get you 30% off of your conference pass.
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  And for those of our folks who listen in Asia, who I know we
• 8:57
  have any year out there, that code also works for Identity
• 9:00
  Week Asia. So if you can't make it to
• 9:03
  America for October 3rd and 4th in Washington, DC and you're in
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  the Asia region and you can plan on hitting that one, you can use
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  the same code, Ida C30. I'll have a link to that one in
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  our show notes as well. And we're kind of dividing and
• 9:16
  conquering that week because Jim, you're going to be at
• 9:17
  Octane, right? Yeah, that very same week I'll
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  be at Octane. So that's October 3rd through
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  5th in San Francisco. We've got a fantastic discount
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  code for that as well. Little little weird, so I'm
• 9:29
  going to say it slowly. Okay TNIDA C30 that'll be in the
• 9:37
  show notes in case you missed it would be 30% off go to
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  octaneocta.com/octane to register.
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  Looking forward to that. We're going to actually
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  cosponsor an event. This is like breaking news,
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  Jeff. I'm just finding out about this.
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  I'm. Not going to be there.
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  You guys are throwing a party. Yeah, we're we're throwing a
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  party, man. That's going to be fun.
• 9:58
  So yeah, it'll be a good time. You and I will also be at the
• 10:04
  Authenticate Conference. We've been talking a lot about
• 10:06
  this one. The discount code for this one
• 10:09
  is ID AC15 podcast. I know there are more than one
• 10:13
  discount code out there, but on top of using our discount code
• 10:18
  gets you 15% off. Some lucky person who used the
• 10:23
  code will get a gift gift basket.
• 10:26
  So that's something that the Authenticate folks have told us
• 10:29
  as well. They're going to have something.
• 10:31
  We don't know all the details of what that gift is going to be.
• 10:33
  It might just be a T-shirt and extra small or extra large,
• 10:37
  whichever 1 doesn't fit you. But I have a feeling it'll be
• 10:40
  something pretty good because these guys know how to put it on
• 10:42
  a good good show. That's going to be October 16th
• 10:45
  through 18th in Carlsbad, CA, which is San Diego and that's
• 10:51
  that. I think that's going to be, oh,
• 10:53
  I mean that's the big one for us, right, Jeff?
• 10:54
  Because we're going to be on stage during the keynote and
• 10:58
  then on the second day we're going to be doing a live in
• 11:01
  front of the studio audience series of podcasts.
• 11:04
  We've got six folks committed to doing live podcasting with us
• 11:08
  now. I say live.
• 11:10
  We're not going to release the shows live.
• 11:11
  We're not going to be streaming them over over the interwebs,
• 11:16
  but they'll be in front of a live studio audience and then
• 11:19
  we'll do some kind of expedited publishing of those shows.
• 11:24
  Yeah, taped in front of a live studio audience of, I don't
• 11:27
  know, dozens, maybe dozens. I'd be happy to get two or three
• 11:30
  people in there, pulling people away from other sessions that I
• 11:33
  feel kind of bad about. But yeah, we're gonna have,
• 11:35
  like, I guess the way we're thinking this is gonna be set up
• 11:37
  is we'll have a little room. We'll be set up with our stuff
• 11:40
  and there'll be some chairs, people can kind of, you know,
• 11:42
  listen in and if we got enough people, maybe we can take some
• 11:44
  questions from the audience based on different guests you
• 11:46
  got lined up and stuff like that.
• 11:47
  But yeah, be kind of cool. Plus I think you mentioned we're
• 11:50
  going to be on the stage part of the keynote.
• 11:51
  That is going to be the style that we're looking at doing is
• 11:54
  like a live podcast style panel in front of the whole thing and
• 12:00
  that one is going to be streamed on the Internet.
• 12:02
  So that's the plan, which is kind of cool and a little bit
• 12:05
  nerve wracking, but we'll do it live, yeah.
• 12:10
  So nothing about Chef. Yeah.
• 12:12
  So I'll have all these links in our show notes.
• 12:13
  Hopefully people can tape Angela's discount codes.
• 12:16
  Very much appreciative to all the different conferences that
• 12:19
  work with us on this stuff. I think most people know at this
• 12:21
  point really don't do commercials and things like
• 12:22
  that. But if it's something that's
• 12:23
  under neutral or something that we think benefits you know, all
• 12:26
  of our listeners, that's something that we're always
• 12:28
  listening out for and and we're glad that folks take us up on
• 12:32
  that so. Enough with all that.
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  Why don't we talk about sausage and how it's made for I M
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  Standards development? That was a professional podcast
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  segue, and I am happy to finally get on the show.
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  I feel like this is a conversation that she and I have
• 12:49
  been standing around awkwardly in circles for.
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  I think maybe a year now, maybe probably even longer, where we
• 12:54
  have, like mutual people we know, but I don't know if we've
• 12:56
  never actually interacted in real life.
• 12:58
  I'm hoping to change that the next time we see each other.
• 13:02
  But she is Heather Flanagan. She's the principal at Spherical
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  Cow Consulting. She's also a principal editor
• 13:07
  for the body of Knowledge at ID Pro.
• 13:09
  Which eight? This podcast is part of that as
• 13:11
  well. And she, a collector of many,
• 13:13
  many, many hats, is probably a good way to say it as well.
• 13:16
  So welcome to the show, Heather. Hello, Jeff.
• 13:19
  Hello, Jim. Thanks for taking the time with
• 13:22
  us. I think like I mentioned, this
• 13:24
  is a conversation that's been a long time coming.
• 13:26
  We've been big fans of ID Pro for a long time.
• 13:29
  I know you do a lot of work with those guys.
• 13:31
  As well, one of the things that we like to get into though is
• 13:34
  this is a pretty diverse field. When we talk about identity and
• 13:36
  access management, there's technical resources, there's
• 13:39
  non-technical resources and there's even everything in
• 13:41
  between and education and all kinds of stuff, right?
• 13:46
  So tell me, how did you get into identity and access management?
• 13:50
  Is it something that you chose or did it choose you?
• 13:56
  It was a natural occurrence really.
• 13:58
  So I was supposed to be a librarian when I grew up.
• 14:00
  I don't know if you knew that that's actually my degree is
• 14:02
  library science and but that was the mid 90s and the first thing
• 14:06
  I did was work for a Internet service provider that all that
• 14:10
  was part of a newspaper, had public research division and
• 14:15
  quickly came about where they what they needed more than
• 14:17
  anything else was someone to manage systems and specifically
• 14:20
  someone to make sure that. Whoever was accessing those
• 14:24
  systems were the right people to access.
• 14:26
  So I think anyone who gets into IT and actually manages systems
• 14:32
  directly or anything, you suddenly realize that identity
• 14:35
  management is just, it's a fundamental part of what you do.
• 14:38
  And since then, and that was a while ago, 1995 Identity's
• 14:46
  always been a part of any role that I've ever played, either
• 14:49
  management or directly. So we're gonna talk about ID Pro
• 14:53
  here, but I have to ask you about spherical cow.
• 14:57
  First of all, two questions. One, what the heck is a
• 15:00
  spherical cow? And two, what is spherical cow
• 15:03
  consulting? What do?
• 15:05
  You do? My goodness, what is it?
• 15:06
  What do I do? Okay.
• 15:07
  So if you're registering a business in Washington state,
• 15:12
  you have to give it a name. And it felt really weird to have
• 15:14
  Heather Flanagan LLC, so I had to pick a name.
• 15:17
  And the reason I was forming a business is because one of my
• 15:21
  very first clients as an independent was a bunch of
• 15:23
  physicists, the Laser Interferometer Gravitational
• 15:27
  Wave Observatory People, also known as LIGO, also known as
• 15:31
  those folks that won that Nobel Prize.
• 15:33
  Anyway, there's this old joke about physicists.
• 15:37
  It's such an old joke that it has its own Wikipedia entry.
• 15:41
  So I won't. I won't.
• 15:43
  Torture you with the joke itself.
• 15:45
  I will tell you to go look it up on Wikipedia.
• 15:47
  Just type in spherical cow and you'll get it.
• 15:50
  And. But the at the heart of the joke
• 15:52
  is the fact that, you know, these physicists are taking
• 15:55
  incredibly complicated, crazy things and trying to simplify
• 16:00
  them into something that you can actually work with.
• 16:03
  Which is, at the end of the day, what I do for a living.
• 16:07
  I'm working with standards development.
• 16:09
  I'm working in the identity space.
• 16:11
  I'm working with these really complicated problems because as
• 16:14
  much as we want it to be about the technology of identity, it's
• 16:18
  almost always it always comes back down to people and politics
• 16:22
  and process and governance and all these things that aren't
• 16:26
  actually technical. And my job is to come in and to
• 16:30
  try and help the technical people move their stuff forward
• 16:34
  however it needs to be done. Sometimes it means that I'm like
• 16:37
  the editorial oversight. Sometimes it means I'm actually
• 16:41
  holding the pen and writing stuff.
• 16:42
  Sometimes it means I'm a facilitator.
• 16:44
  Sometimes it means I'm managing all the groups that are going
• 16:47
  on. It's like, okay, what do you
• 16:48
  actually need to do Stuff? And that is what spherical cow
• 16:53
  does. And that's just me.
• 16:54
  It's a one person LLC, so it keeps me on the toes.
• 16:59
  Yeah, no kidding. And so you work with it Pro.
• 17:03
  I know that you worked on the body of knowledge and you
• 17:05
  continue to work on that. Can you tackle what about sort
• 17:08
  of your inner linkage with ID Pro and some of the things that
• 17:11
  you've worked on? So I've actually been working
• 17:14
  with ID Pro since 2019, back when having a body of knowledge
• 17:19
  was still kind of a shiny glint in their eye.
• 17:21
  They didn't have one, but they knew they wanted it.
• 17:24
  And so that was right around the time where I was wrapping up
• 17:28
  being RFC series editor for the ITF.
• 17:30
  So the RFC series is kind of foundational to how the Internet
• 17:34
  functions. And for eight years I was their
• 17:36
  editor to make sure that, you know, executive oversight for
• 17:39
  the process for publishing those those particular standards and
• 17:42
  informational documents. And when I heard that, it pro
• 17:47
  was. Forming.
• 17:49
  I mean, I was a founding member and then it was like, oh, and
• 17:51
  you want to do this body of knowledge, that's great.
• 17:52
  How are you going to do it? And they're like, we're not
• 17:54
  sure. And I said, wait, hang, OK,
• 17:57
  here's what you need to do. Step one, hire me, Step 2, let's
• 18:01
  build a process together. And that's really how it all
• 18:06
  started, long ago. I can imagine that library sign
• 18:10
  like went out like the bat signal and you're like my people
• 18:13
  need me. Almost.
• 18:14
  Exactly that. Yes, almost exactly that, Yeah.
• 18:17
  Does the body of knowledge have a Dewey decimal system?
• 18:21
  No, but it should. Dewey Decimal system is is
• 18:24
  really just a hard done to thing.
• 18:26
  People make fun of it and yet it's so very smart unlike the
• 18:29
  Library of Congress system, which is just, I'm sorry, those
• 18:32
  people, they had this great big building full of books and they
• 18:36
  just said, eh, stick labels on them based on what room they're
• 18:39
  in and we'll call it good. Well, there you go anyway, that
• 18:45
  idea you're more that'll be my contribution to ID pro for the
• 18:48
  day. But I D Pro, I mean it's you
• 18:53
  know it's had such momentum over the last couple of years and
• 18:55
  seems to be growing exponentially every year.
• 19:00
  You know, Jeff and I are big fans, as we said.
• 19:03
  And we've had Ian Glazer and Sarah Chachetti and Andy
• 19:08
  Hindelon with us in past episodes.
• 19:10
  And we've talked a lot about like, okay, what is ID Pro
• 19:13
  doing? But it's been more kind of the
• 19:17
  strategy of where, what is ID Pro doing and where's it
• 19:20
  heading? And it seems like you're a
• 19:23
  person who's, you know, making these things actually happen.
• 19:26
  So I'd like to kind of post some of these things to you and how
• 19:30
  they're happening. So if you don't mind, I just
• 19:33
  kind of like throw out a few things that are nascent to ID
• 19:37
  Pro and get you can kind of talk about the house.
• 19:40
  So the first one that comes to mind is the CID Pro
• 19:45
  certification. That was a lot of fun to put
• 19:48
  together. I was in on the the ground floor
• 19:51
  of that as well, and that started very much with Sarah.
• 19:55
  It was a vision for Sarah that she really wanted to have some
• 19:57
  kind of of certification for identity practitioners.
• 20:02
  We started talking to Kevin Streeter at Ford Rock.
• 20:05
  He's the VP of Ford Rock University and heavily involved
• 20:08
  in certification programs and how you build them and how you
• 20:11
  design them. And he and I and Sarah and a
• 20:15
  handful of others sat down and said, okay, if you're going to
• 20:18
  do this, here's how you do it right.
• 20:20
  Step 1, build a blueprint. What exactly do you expect
• 20:24
  people to to know in order to be considered A2 year old?
• 20:30
  That was our target is is we want a 2 year old, a 2 year old
• 20:33
  identity practitioner be able to pass this exam.
• 20:36
  So what kinds of things do we think are what we would expect a
• 20:40
  2 year old to to know And from there that that builds out the
• 20:44
  blueprint once you have the blueprint.
• 20:46
  For clarification, you're not talking about a 2 year old
• 20:48
  toddler talking about somebody who's spent two years in this
• 20:52
  field. Gotcha.
• 20:53
  Yeah, two years in the field, but it was a 2 year old.
• 20:56
  It worked. From there, it was okay.
• 21:00
  Now that we have a blueprint, we need to actually get the people
• 21:03
  who know this stuff. We want identity practitioners
• 21:06
  to build this exam, because who better to form the questions and
• 21:11
  answers than the people who live this every day?
• 21:16
  And so there was a committee that came together and started
• 21:19
  putting together the questions and there was consultants
• 21:23
  involved who their job was teaching us how to build a test
• 21:30
  question because as it turns out, that's a fascinating
• 21:32
  subject area of specialty on its own.
• 21:35
  And they helped us with that to make sure that the questions
• 21:37
  were actually good questions for an exam.
• 21:41
  Then the once that was done, we've got I think two or three
• 21:46
  different versions of the exam so that not everyone is seeing
• 21:48
  the same thing. Eventually, probably within the
• 21:52
  next year or two, we're going to refresh those questions.
• 21:55
  If this becomes really popular, the glint in my eye is to say,
• 21:59
  all right, well, that's the foundational exam.
• 22:01
  But I want one that once you've got that foundational exam, I
• 22:05
  want an intermediate exam, I want an advanced exam, I want an
• 22:08
  exam that says okay, If your area of specialty is actually
• 22:12
  research and education, what makes the I am in that sector
• 22:17
  unique? That happens to be my
• 22:20
  background. So I know good and well there's
• 22:21
  a lot of unique things about it, but maybe then another one for
• 22:24
  fintech, another one for gaming, another one for science.
• 22:26
  You know, there's there's there's ways to turn this into
• 22:31
  specialty certifications that really speak to what someone in
• 22:36
  that sector should know, should aim for.
• 22:40
  We're not anywhere near there yet, but that's my goal.
• 22:43
  Jeff, you were involved in in coming up with I got one
• 22:47
  question, you got one? Question on one of the three
• 22:49
  exams and that's it. I can attest to the process.
• 22:53
  It is definitely not as simple as just writing a bunch of
• 22:56
  questions and then sticking them in the hat.
• 22:59
  There were long, thoughtful meetings and a long process to
• 23:02
  get the first version of the exam out, and I got one, so I'll
• 23:07
  take that. I can tell that people really
• 23:10
  care who are involved with ID Pro.
• 23:12
  You're not going to slip in a question without it being
• 23:15
  debated. Every question was debated.
• 23:19
  Look at the Slack channel and that's the next one that I went
• 23:22
  to ask you about, Heather was, you know what goes into having
• 23:24
  the Slack channel? Maybe it's just return on Slack
• 23:26
  channel when everybody showed up.
• 23:28
  But I mean that thing is awesome.
• 23:31
  And then when you read some of the responses, it's like, you
• 23:34
  know, there's this rabbit hole concept on Netflix or YouTube
• 23:38
  where you just start. Well, for me if I go away from
• 23:42
  the Slack channel and I connect for the first time in a couple
• 23:44
  weeks, it's like Rabbit Hole City and you start going down to
• 23:47
  these different thread avenues and.
• 23:50
  So do you have any additional insights on the on the Slack
• 23:54
  channel, Heather, Because we always help you.
• 23:56
  That's one of the biggest benefits of absolutely it's,
• 24:00
  it's community building and it's practically free consulting,
• 24:04
  right? It's the sitting at the water
• 24:06
  cooler with, you know, 6 or 700 of your closest identity buddies
• 24:12
  where you're like, hey, how did this work for you?
• 24:14
  Because man, it was giving me grief and you can ask that
• 24:17
  question or complain about this thing and there will be people
• 24:21
  all over the world who are willing to chime in.
• 24:24
  I agree it's it's absolutely our best resource and it's not all
• 24:28
  geek all the time. I happen to know that there's
• 24:31
  like 1 channel called Pit Boss for people who like smoking BBQ.
• 24:35
  I didn't know that Channel exists.
• 24:37
  I like the general one that just kind of goes off the Braille
• 24:40
  sometimes. Body of Knowledge.
• 24:45
  I mean, that's such a big topic. And one of the things I wanted
• 24:48
  to ask you about was with the body of knowledge, do you feel
• 24:51
  like you're taking on some of these, like really deep
• 24:54
  philosophical areas of identity or is it pretty much staying on
• 24:59
  the rails, so the body? So one of the things about ID
• 25:03
  Pro is ID Pro is not a standard setting organization.
• 25:07
  We're not even trying to be a standard setting organization.
• 25:10
  We're not trying to break new ground.
• 25:12
  We're not trying to say this is to one true way of doing a
• 25:16
  thing. We're trying to capture what the
• 25:19
  industry has agreed is yes, this, this seems to be the right
• 25:23
  way to do things. The most obvious way that that
• 25:27
  is expressed is we have one of the things I require of all my
• 25:31
  authors is that their article have a terminology section
• 25:35
  because they're going to use words and I want it to be very
• 25:37
  clear how are those used words in that context because it's
• 25:41
  going to differ from one article to the next because our industry
• 25:44
  is not mature enough to have that stabilized.
• 25:47
  I take all of those and put them in a consolidated terminology
• 25:50
  document so that you can see the four different ways that
• 25:53
  authentication has been defined and then you can see where it
• 25:56
  was defined that way to get some sense of the context for all of
• 25:59
  that. So it's it's again we're not, I
• 26:03
  would say we're on the rails because we're not trying to two
• 26:06
  brave new things. We're literally trying to get
• 26:09
  reasonable arms around an industry of practice well.
• 26:12
  I think collecting all that information is super helpful to
• 26:14
  talk through and say okay. Where do we find information?
• 26:17
  Where can I go to for answers? I think the intent of the Body
• 26:21
  of Knowledge and the CIT Pro exams were if you read the Body
• 26:24
  of Knowledge, that should be all the studying that you need to do
• 26:27
  for the CIT Pro exam. That is also a goal.
• 26:31
  It is a goal, but it's not there yet.
• 26:33
  It's not that complete, as it turns out.
• 26:37
  People are kind of nervous about writing.
• 26:41
  Yeah, well it's intimidating, especially if it's not something
• 26:43
  you've done before. Plus now you're standing in
• 26:46
  front of hundreds, thousands, right, of your I Am brethren and
• 26:51
  sisters and all that other stuff, right?
• 26:54
  How do you get started contributing?
• 26:56
  Cuz you mentioned that you've got some requirements for
• 26:59
  people, right? Do I need to have a certain
• 27:01
  background? Can I just?
• 27:04
  Speak it into my iPhone notes app and someone will help me
• 27:08
  format that So the most successful for the people who
• 27:10
  have done this most successfully, what they usually
• 27:12
  do is start with that question. They reach out to me and say
• 27:16
  wait, how do I do this? And I hop on a quick call and
• 27:22
  say for one thing I'm ecstatic when people reach out to me with
• 27:25
  that because I love talking people through learning how to
• 27:29
  write and what topics. But from there, we just chat
• 27:34
  about, well, what thing do you want?
• 27:36
  What do you want to write about? What do you feel passionate
• 27:38
  enough that you want to put together?
• 27:39
  And then I help them. Usually I help them create an
• 27:41
  outline, because that's the my brain definitely works on
• 27:45
  outlines. People who write streams of
• 27:47
  consciousness are usually better for blog posts.
• 27:49
  There's nothing wrong with blog posts, trust me, we need those
• 27:52
  too. But for the body of knowledge,
• 27:55
  where it's trying to be a little bit more structured of no, I
• 27:57
  need. I need you to introduce the
• 27:59
  topic. I need you to be prepared to
• 28:01
  have a terminology. I need you to have a body that
• 28:04
  sort of builds your case such that if you were just looking at
• 28:07
  a table of contents, you would be able to read the story of
• 28:11
  what someone's, what you're trying to tell somebody and then
• 28:13
  have a conclusion. And as we chat about that, we
• 28:17
  get a working document started, they go off and do their thing.
• 28:21
  I nag them periodically because that's 90% of what I do for a
• 28:24
  living is nag people. And then once Once it's done to
• 28:29
  our satisfaction, they submit it and I start getting peer
• 28:32
  reviewers to actually review the document, offer feedback.
• 28:35
  These aren't blind peer reviews. The author will know who did the
• 28:39
  review because it's so often. 9 times out of 10 generates a
• 28:42
  conversation to everybody's benefit, and it goes from there.
• 28:46
  Are there specific topics that you find are either more
• 28:50
  difficult to write for or are? Missing.
• 28:54
  I think we mentioned that the body of knowledge is not yet
• 28:57
  complete right now. And maybe it never will be
• 28:59
  because things are always changing.
• 29:01
  Sure, but is there like a certain area where it's like,
• 29:03
  hey, let's use the power of this podcast to get the word out?
• 29:06
  Hey we're looking for knowledge articles in this specific topic
• 29:12
  or domain. So I have a GitHub
• 29:14
  repositoryitsgithub.com Idpros with an S at the end, and one of
• 29:21
  the repositories In there is bok Dash, TOC, the body of
• 29:26
  knowledge, table of contents. If I was Queen of the universe,
• 29:29
  which I'm not, but if I were, that's the table of contents
• 29:33
  that I would want if we printed out all the articles together.
• 29:36
  Here's what here is what a complete volume, one of the Body
• 29:39
  of knowledge would look like. So why use GitHub for that style
• 29:43
  of, I don't know, collaboration GitHub, because it was frankly
• 29:48
  the easiest way. It's not perfect by any stretch
• 29:51
  of the imagination, but we wanted people to be able to talk
• 29:54
  about the articles and. But where do you do that?
• 29:58
  Where do you maintain that? How do you how do you actually
• 30:01
  manage a? We don't have a wiki, right?
• 30:05
  So we wouldn't put them on a wiki.
• 30:06
  Where do you put a place for people to chat just about these
• 30:10
  things? And so GitHub seemed to be a
• 30:13
  really a much better way to for people to either put issues in
• 30:17
  and say, I think it's missing something.
• 30:19
  That gives me a really good trail when it's time to refresh
• 30:22
  the articles, which we try and do periodically to just go back
• 30:26
  to the issue list and say all right, what did people say again
• 30:29
  that we really wanted in here? The Slack won't work for that.
• 30:33
  For one thing, we have too many members to be able to afford
• 30:37
  paying for a Slack instance that keeps things longer than 90
• 30:40
  days. And I do not want the body of
• 30:43
  knowledge to be only what I I personally, me, Heather knows
• 30:47
  such that if I won the lottery, which I don't play, but you
• 30:51
  know, this is about like, me being queen of the universe and
• 30:53
  I moved to Tahiti, someone else needs to come in and be able to
• 30:56
  see, well, where are we, what, where did we leave this article?
• 30:59
  What questions were still open about it?
• 31:01
  So GitHub seemed to be like the best fit of what was available.
• 31:04
  Gotcha. Well, maybe if someone from
• 31:06
  Slack is listening, maybe they'd be willing to sponsor.
• 31:09
  You know some licenses so that I D Pro can continue its amazing
• 31:12
  mission there. Soapbox off.
• 31:16
  So Heather, you're pretty deeply entrenched in the standards
• 31:20
  world, right? And actually I think we would
• 31:24
  have met sooner. I queued up to meet you at your
• 31:29
  one of your identifiers talks and when I say queue, it was a
• 31:34
  long queue and it was moving very slowly, like you're still
• 31:37
  talking to the same person. Like 5 minutes.
• 31:39
  I was like, I'll meet Heather next time, but now we know each
• 31:44
  other. Now we're good friends.
• 31:46
  But speaking before you was Justin Richer, who's on the show
• 31:51
  a few episodes back. And he made the point that the
• 31:55
  goal of the standard is interoperability.
• 31:58
  So I think that would make them hard to write.
• 32:01
  Is that correct? You know, in a way I would say
• 32:06
  it makes them hard to come to consensus on.
• 32:09
  And I guess you could, you could say that anyone can write this
• 32:12
  stuff down and then say if you want to interoperate, here you
• 32:14
  go, here's the rules how you do it.
• 32:16
  The trick comes when then you say okay.
• 32:18
  But I really want this to to live.
• 32:22
  I want this to be a thing that people actually use and not just
• 32:25
  me tossing out my thoughts into the universe and saying, you
• 32:28
  know, my way. The highway consensus building
• 32:30
  to me is is absolutely the hardest part of standards
• 32:33
  development. So what attracted you to get
• 32:35
  involved in standards writing? What generally attracts people
• 32:41
  obviously seriously. Or tongue in cheek say it's this
• 32:44
  is boring stuff right? So this is this is gonna.
• 32:50
  I hope this doesn't sound preachy but this is this is how
• 32:53
  my brain works. I have been an independent for
• 32:58
  close to 12 years and one of the things, and I've I've worked
• 33:02
  with a coach because one of the things that you have to to you
• 33:05
  have to do when you go independent is if you want, if
• 33:07
  you want someone coaching you, which you would normally have be
• 33:09
  your manager or your HR, you know someone in your company.
• 33:12
  You hire a coach, which I did. And one of the first things she
• 33:16
  and I worked out was well, what Why am I doing this?
• 33:21
  This why am I going to be an independent?
• 33:23
  What am I trying to accomplish with my life and my career.
• 33:27
  And the answer is I want to make the Internet better.
• 33:29
  And unpacking that, you know, I can't write code.
• 33:33
  I mean, if it's not send mail rule sets.
• 33:35
  And M4, it's not working for me. I can't, I can't actually do it.
• 33:39
  I think send mail and M4 broke my brain.
• 33:41
  But that's another topic, right? OK, I can't code.
• 33:45
  I'm not a visionary. I'm not an architect, you know,
• 33:47
  I can't, I can't look at a system and say, oh, it could do
• 33:51
  the following. That's no, none of that is me.
• 33:54
  OK, so if you can't code and you can't have an architectural
• 33:58
  vision for how it's going to work, and so tell me again, how
• 34:02
  do you think you can make the Internet better?
• 34:04
  Well, as it turns out, there's a big, long list.
• 34:07
  Engineers are not the most organized people I've ever met.
• 34:11
  And so I want to make the Internet better.
• 34:13
  So I am really attracted to those spaces that don't have
• 34:18
  someone like me to come in and actually say, all right, I'm
• 34:22
  passionate about what you're doing, but I can't do what
• 34:25
  you're doing. So let me do what I can do to
• 34:27
  make your life better and make you have more progress.
• 34:32
  So a lot of times you're working with the engineers, the
• 34:34
  technical folks who they have all the information in their
• 34:37
  head, they just can't put it on paper.
• 34:40
  And you guide them through that process, or at least extract the
• 34:44
  information that you need to write a standard, I'm wondering.
• 34:49
  What makes what's the difference between a good and a bad
• 34:51
  standard? And I'm wondering if it's how
• 34:54
  many people adopted like is XML the greatest standard of all
• 34:58
  time or you know the ASCII standard or you know or SAML?
• 35:03
  For us, are those the the best standards because the most
• 35:06
  people were able to put them into into usage.
• 35:10
  Jim, I think maybe we need like a Standards Hall of Fame or
• 35:13
  something. Oh, that would be fun.
• 35:15
  We should. We should have that.
• 35:16
  You know, to me, the best standard is the one that's
• 35:17
  unambiguous, yes or no, People, you know, having people adopted
• 35:21
  is of course very important, but it's not really a great standard
• 35:25
  until people can look at it and go say, yes, I actually
• 35:29
  absolutely understand what this is trying to say.
• 35:33
  I was editing, if this hasn't been published as a standard
• 35:37
  yet, it's still in the draft stage and they kept using the
• 35:40
  word trust. And I said, okay, you know what,
• 35:45
  I I'm not actually sure I know what you mean.
• 35:48
  Are you talking technical trust, which is like mathematically
• 35:50
  provable. Are you talking contractual
• 35:52
  trust in terms of there's there's actually written
• 35:55
  agreements about how things will happen what what does this mean
• 35:59
  and going into it and being able to, It's really hard for experts
• 36:04
  to do this by the way because they he knew exactly what he was
• 36:07
  talking about. It just changed from one
• 36:09
  paragraph to the next, which didn't help anybody else but
• 36:13
  being able to to up level a little bit and think about is,
• 36:17
  is this clear to someone who isn't me or someone who isn't
• 36:21
  been in this small working group?
• 36:23
  I think this common terms are sometimes the the ones that we
• 36:27
  throw around and say all the time are the hardest ones to
• 36:29
  define What What do you mean? Identity.
• 36:35
  So if someone out there is listening and they are
• 36:40
  interested in. Getting involved or maybe
• 36:43
  building a career out of standards.
• 36:47
  Do they need, what do they need to get started?
• 36:50
  Do they need to have like a degree in English?
• 36:53
  Or actually, this is another question I'm going to follow up
• 36:56
  with. All right, so there's the first
• 36:58
  question. The second question is, are all
• 37:00
  the standards written in English or some of them written in other
• 37:03
  languages? And there's a whole industry
• 37:07
  around. Well, that depends on what
• 37:08
  standards organization you're talking to, right?
• 37:11
  There's there's a lot of different standards
• 37:12
  organizations in the world. Some are treaty based and nation
• 37:17
  based, you know, somehow backed by law.
• 37:20
  And those will be in whatever language or languages are
• 37:24
  appropriate to the the laws and treaties that form that
• 37:29
  particular standards organization.
• 37:30
  So ISO publishes in I want to say 7 different languages,
• 37:37
  possibly more, right? Etsy will publish in a variety
• 37:42
  you know you go to. It's like it's like going to
• 37:45
  have you ever gone to look for. This isn't a technical standard,
• 37:48
  but the the concept still applies.
• 37:49
  Actually look for the text of the GDPR.
• 37:52
  You have to you have to select from like 20-4 different
• 37:56
  languages to to you know what works for you so that you can
• 38:00
  actually read the regulation now in more industry based
• 38:04
  standards. Organizations like the i.e.
• 38:06
  TF or the Open ID Foundation or the Centralized Identity
• 38:09
  Foundation. You know they will generally
• 38:12
  write in only one language, and that will be whatever language
• 38:17
  you know where they formed. And that's mostly because they
• 38:20
  can't afford anything else. Translation requires resources
• 38:25
  and they often can't afford to do that.
• 38:28
  You know the i.e. Pro Body of Knowledge has a
• 38:30
  grant from Amazon. Thank you Amazon to do a limited
• 38:34
  translation of the body of knowledge into Spanish.
• 38:37
  So all the articles up through issue, the release of issue 10
• 38:41
  are in the process of being translated.
• 38:43
  Several of them have already been published so that if you
• 38:46
  want to read them in Spanish, you absolutely can.
• 38:47
  And they've been reviewed by subject matter experts to make
• 38:49
  sure that the translation is solid.
• 38:53
  But that was not inexpensive. We needed the grant to do that
• 38:56
  and we can't maintain it. So issue 11 has come out since
• 38:59
  the grant was awarded. We have issue 12 coming out
• 39:02
  later this year, and those won't get translated.
• 39:04
  We don't have a translation into French.
• 39:06
  It would be really great if we did, but all of that requires
• 39:09
  resources we don't have. Yeah, that's not a standard
• 39:11
  translation, right? That's a technical translation.
• 39:14
  If that's somebody who knows that how those words translate
• 39:18
  into the other languages, a little bit of both.
• 39:21
  Context. It's not just the word IT.
• 39:24
  I think it helped with the IT Pro project because we had that
• 39:27
  consolidated terminology document and I said, OK, before
• 39:31
  you translate anything else, translate this, let me get this
• 39:35
  reviewed by the subject matter experts, give it back to you and
• 39:38
  now you have a reference for the most difficult terms that you're
• 39:41
  going to find in the documents. I think that was really helpful.
• 39:45
  That's very cool. So I know you had mentioned in
• 39:49
  the past, one of the important things for getting started is
• 39:54
  having support from your management.
• 39:56
  And I'm wondering, you know is that I think this was part of
• 40:00
  your identifiers talk like get the support for your management
• 40:04
  and then a lot of the management maybe rightfully so, we're going
• 40:08
  to ask Okay what's what's in it for us, right, because we're
• 40:11
  going to spend all this money, you know, how's this coming back
• 40:14
  to the company? Yeah, that is the that is the
• 40:17
  biggest problem of, you know, people who really want to get
• 40:20
  involved in this is making that case because any manager worth
• 40:25
  their salt is going to ask Okay, how much time is this going to
• 40:30
  take and for how long? What are the outputs?
• 40:32
  You know what, How are you going to measure this and measure the
• 40:35
  value to the company and things like that?
• 40:37
  Unless you're working for a company that says 10% of your
• 40:41
  time you can do whatever you want to that's relevant to us
• 40:45
  and you can figure it out, right?
• 40:47
  Unless you work for a company like that, you you actually have
• 40:50
  to be thinking ahead to make an argument of why this, why you
• 40:55
  should be allowed to do this, and why you're allowed to do it
• 40:57
  long term. Because there are no quick wins.
• 41:00
  There are no quick wins in standards development.
• 41:02
  You don't have any thought because I want to bring the
• 41:04
  conversation back to ID Pro. If we could for a minute, we
• 41:09
  talked about the how is the CID Pro?
• 41:12
  With the Slack channel, with the body of knowledge, one other
• 41:17
  area was, you know just the blogs that come out and I'd like
• 41:21
  to know a little bit more if you could help us how people should
• 41:25
  approach or navigate or you, you know, you know use the blogs.
• 41:30
  But I also wanted to ask you about a blog that you've
• 41:32
  recently wrote on government issued digital credentials and
• 41:37
  privacy. Actually, that was.
• 41:39
  One of the main drivers to reach out to you had to have you on
• 41:41
  here. So you give us kind of a summary
• 41:44
  on that because I think it's such a hot topic that people
• 41:47
  want to dive into. Sure.
• 41:49
  Well for for blogs in general on the ID Pro site, think of them
• 41:53
  as the op-ed pieces. Those are the the informed
• 41:56
  opinion pieces that people publish and there's an editorial
• 41:59
  committee that looks them over so that they're not, you know
• 42:01
  egregiously vendor driven or flat out wrong.
• 42:05
  But still, they're they're primarily op-ed pieces.
• 42:08
  The one that I put together was it was a blog post about a paper
• 42:12
  that I wrote. The paper is called Government
• 42:16
  Issued Digital Credentials in the Privacy Landscape.
• 42:20
  This is not a short paper. It's about 70 pages.
• 42:24
  And yet I still considered it an overview of the landscape.
• 42:29
  If you want to know more about any topic within the paper,
• 42:32
  there's about 130 citations, lots of things for for people to
• 42:36
  be able to just drill down on. The paper is structured such
• 42:39
  that it's kind of divided into, OK, so there's governments
• 42:43
  issuing credentials that's, you know, part of the, the
• 42:46
  constrained scope. What governments are you talking
• 42:49
  about? Give us some examples of what
• 42:51
  different governments are doing. And so we looked at at HAR,
• 42:54
  which is in India, which is the biggest one.
• 42:56
  I mean they have, they have issued more digital credentials
• 42:59
  to their population residents than anybody else.
• 43:03
  Singapore, which is probably the most high tech ubiquitous,
• 43:06
  you're going to find Nigeria, which is the biggest one in
• 43:10
  Africa. We looked at sort of the EU in
• 43:12
  general because the EU is a fascinating beast.
• 43:14
  And then we looked at Italy, We didn't look at Estonia because
• 43:18
  everybody looks at Estonia. And I wanted to look at
• 43:20
  something that was a little more challenging.
• 43:21
  And Italy is doing so much and yet they've got some really
• 43:26
  interesting challenges of an older population, not as many
• 43:31
  mobile phones. So how is, how is that going to
• 43:33
  work for them? So cover that.
• 43:35
  And then, you know, we couldn't escape writing about the US But
• 43:38
  the US, as much as we say it is a country, it's more like this
• 43:43
  loose federation of states. And every state was doing
• 43:45
  something a little bit different.
• 43:47
  So picked a handful of states to just show some of the diversity
• 43:50
  of what the US is doing in terms of digital credentials.
• 43:55
  So that's fine. That was great.
• 43:56
  That gives you that start. But then it's like okay, Well,
• 43:58
  what standards guide these credentials?
• 44:01
  You know, there's privacy frameworks, there's technical
• 44:04
  standards. You know what?
• 44:06
  What actually informs the space. And so did it.
• 44:08
  A little bit of a write up about some of what's out there,
• 44:11
  certainly not complete, but it gives you a sense for the
• 44:14
  biggest things. I think there's a section on
• 44:17
  okay. You've got, you've got this
• 44:20
  model of how it's looking in several different countries.
• 44:22
  You've got standards that exist, standards and regulations that
• 44:25
  exist. So what more could you possibly
• 44:28
  need? Well, as it turns out, I have a
• 44:30
  list and there is a section on gaps of OK, well, where where
• 44:35
  are things missing? Because there's always going to
• 44:38
  be things missing. Regulation and standards are
• 44:41
  never all that closely tied together.
• 44:44
  And there's actually sometimes this be gaping chasm between the
• 44:49
  two. And other times there's just so
• 44:52
  friction, like it's a little San Andreas Fault going on where
• 44:54
  they're just rubbing against each other and we're waiting for
• 44:56
  an earthquake where things are all destroyed.
• 44:59
  So we talked about that a little bit and then we wrapped up with
• 45:02
  Okay. This has all been wonderful and
• 45:04
  fascinating, but are there things coming down the pipe that
• 45:07
  we don't? We aren't thinking about that.
• 45:10
  We're not really having all the discussions yet that we need to
• 45:13
  and how the governments are going to have to think about it
• 45:16
  with their credentials and what how privacy is actually going to
• 45:18
  function in the brave new world. So things like digital warfare,
• 45:23
  when you make your digital credential infrastructure a core
• 45:27
  part of how your country does business, it becomes a target in
• 45:33
  war. And are you prepared for that?
• 45:35
  Have you thought about that? Are you still posting stuff to
• 45:38
  the lowest bidder to secure your identity systems?
• 45:41
  You know, thinking these things through?
• 45:44
  Or were put on the list of areas to watch and that is what the
• 45:49
  blog post was about I. Mean.
• 45:51
  That's a lot. It's a short read.
• 45:53
  It's an easy read right now. There's a lot to cover through
• 45:56
  that. You know, I had a question about
• 45:58
  you talked about some of the standards development stuff that
• 46:00
  was going on. What is the target for a
• 46:04
  standard? Should it be 100%?
• 46:07
  This standard should apply to, you know, 100% of the target
• 46:10
  population. Is it.
• 46:12
  This is a standard for most of the people to.
• 46:16
  Adhere to because they feel like this is an area where we start
• 46:18
  getting into like the digital divide, the haves and the haves
• 46:22
  nots, whatever that have or have not might be.
• 46:25
  And if you're trying to develop standards, I would imagine that
• 46:29
  it's a lot easier to say, well, let's just make an assumption
• 46:31
  that everybody has X, which may not be right.
• 46:34
  It's certainly easier. And that does in fact happen
• 46:37
  because you're now having to balance.
• 46:40
  Do you want to make progress, or do you want to capture every
• 46:42
  possible use case? It may even be a valid use case.
• 46:47
  But every possible use case, you're never going to.
• 46:50
  You're never going to finish. You're never going to finish.
• 46:52
  The other problem that standards development has that doesn't
• 46:56
  often get mentioned is of course so You've got an organization
• 47:00
  like the ITF and they are working on developing standards
• 47:02
  that will make the Internet work.
• 47:05
  That's a good, worthy goal. I like that goal.
• 47:07
  I support that goal. The Internet doesn't really
• 47:12
  recognize geopolitical boundaries.
• 47:14
  And so you've got the GDPR in Europe, you don't really, you
• 47:18
  have a mishmash of privacy law in the US, You've got completely
• 47:22
  different laws in Singapore. You've got, you know, you've got
• 47:24
  so many different regulations of what they're requiring of
• 47:27
  countries that the underlying infrastructure has to be it has
• 47:32
  to support all of it, right? And that's that's a really,
• 47:37
  really hard thing to do. How do you feel about generative
• 47:41
  AI as a writer? I find things like ChatGPT and
• 47:46
  Bard and I can't remember what Meadows is called at this
• 47:50
  moment, but you know, I I'm a fan of it.
• 47:54
  But I get curious when I talk to people who are actual writers
• 47:58
  and can actually, you know, do a good job with that for versus me
• 48:02
  where that is not my strength and I'm looking for tips or ways
• 48:05
  to improve that. How do you, how do you see, you
• 48:09
  know those types of things? Is it cheating?
• 48:11
  No, not at all. Not at all.
• 48:13
  But it's not cheating. But nor is it a guaranteed win,
• 48:18
  right? The where?
• 48:21
  Where's the source of information for these generative
• 48:24
  AI models? You know, right, wrong or
• 48:25
  indifferent. It's generally stuff that's on
• 48:27
  the Internet and tell me how correct stuff is on the
• 48:31
  Internet, right? You're going to get stuff that's
• 48:33
  really, really right. Really, really wrong.
• 48:35
  And the problem with the generative AI models is they
• 48:38
  present that information assertively, confidently.
• 48:44
  Sounds reasonable. Why not?
• 48:46
  So the problem I have with generative AI is not as much
• 48:50
  with the AI as it is with people accepting it without question.
• 48:55
  But then I feel that way about the Internet too.
• 48:59
  Yeah, well, I mean, it is definitely.
• 49:01
  You know, I think this is where people still need to do put
• 49:04
  their thinking caps and say, hey, can I trust this
• 49:06
  information? Which is certainly a big issue
• 49:09
  because what if you poison the model itself, right?
• 49:12
  And it's no different than, I don't know, our poisoning or
• 49:15
  other types of attacks, right where you're heading to the
• 49:17
  source of truth, and it's a cascading effect down from
• 49:20
  there. You know, I like to use it for
• 49:23
  benign stuff. I think I've shared on this
• 49:25
  podcast before. I'm in charge of making sure
• 49:27
  timesheets get submitted on time as a consulting business is very
• 49:30
  important. So there's an e-mail I send out
• 49:32
  today. I used it to generate a scene
• 49:36
  from the Barbie movie because that's topical about and I, you
• 49:41
  know the situation with Ken forgetting this in his timesheet
• 49:43
  or something like that. And then to spice it up, I used
• 49:46
  generative AI to create a a visual an image of.
• 49:52
  That sort of scene, and it was the text was decent.
• 49:56
  I thought, you know, if you didn't know any better, it would
• 49:58
  probably pass. You know a novice kind of scan
• 50:01
  of it. The image, not so much.
• 50:04
  It was downright horrifying in some cases, you know, for some
• 50:07
  of the things that came out of it.
• 50:09
  But I do find it interesting as a as a tool or a crutch to kind
• 50:12
  of get started with something and have an idea which I think
• 50:15
  is going to be a huge advantage for people and maybe that might
• 50:17
  help people with some of the things we've been talking about
• 50:19
  here is. Do you embrace that sort of
• 50:21
  approach to say, hey, I've got an idea, let me at least start
• 50:23
  it here. And then of course, let's Polish
• 50:26
  it and make sure one that it's actually accurate, but it also
• 50:29
  meets the style and guidelines and things like that.
• 50:31
  Yeah, a friend of mine actually did that.
• 50:33
  He went to ChatGPT and said write an Internet draft on
• 50:38
  digital identity and why it's important and then OK, now write
• 50:42
  an Internet draft on digital identity and why it is not
• 50:44
  important, right. And just getting both those
• 50:46
  models. And they were both hilarious and
• 50:50
  yet not poorly done for me. I'm more likely to say okay.
• 50:54
  I need, I really need to write some blog posts and I'm just not
• 50:59
  feeling it. Okay.
• 51:01
  Give me 10 titles, you know, see topics, 10 topical titles about
• 51:06
  federation or pass key or federation versus pass key or
• 51:10
  something, And from there that's usually enough to kickstart me
• 51:13
  to go. Or I may say, all right, and
• 51:16
  I've done this many times, here's the abstract for a body
• 51:20
  of Knowledge article. Give me something to start with
• 51:23
  on how I want to create a LinkedIn post.
• 51:26
  Because right since February I've actually been solely
• 51:29
  responsible for IT pros social media.
• 51:34
  So which has been really character building?
• 51:39
  Yeah, I'll bet. OK, well, we've had a great
• 51:43
  conversation. And by my watch, it just turned
• 51:45
  5:00, which means it's drinking time.
• 51:49
  We're going to go ahead and wrap up.
• 51:51
  That's the first time Jeff has ever said that in this entire
• 51:54
  life. It is.
• 51:55
  It's 5:00 somewhere. Normally for our lighter notes
• 52:00
  to end, you know end our conversations, we kind of pick
• 52:03
  like a topic and or a stupid question or something just to
• 52:07
  kind of have fun at the end. And this is the first time we're
• 52:09
  trying something of this nature. We're actually going to do a
• 52:13
  Scotch whiskey tasting and Heather is going to be our
• 52:16
  guide. This is something that we've
• 52:18
  been working on behind the scenes for weeks, I think at
• 52:21
  this point, trying to procure a specific bottle.
• 52:25
  Bunahaven 12 Year Scotch Whiskey, to be accurate, I guess
• 52:30
  I was able to find a bottle in the Asheville, NC area, which is
• 52:33
  where I'm at. Jim, were you able to find a
• 52:35
  bottle? I was not.
• 52:37
  I was able to find a Scotch whiskey, but not at the
• 52:39
  Bunahaven. So I got the Glen of that 12.
• 52:43
  Same number of years, so I'm assuming it's going to taste
• 52:46
  exactly the same. Oh, I'm sure that's how that
• 52:48
  works, right? But that's that's what I'm good
• 52:59
  at. Heather just rolled her eyes
• 52:50
  back. And I think, I think if you
• 52:52
  could send a shock through the Internet, it probably would have
• 52:55
  hit your ears by now. Jim.
• 52:57
  Hey, you. You do like to stir the pot.
• 53:02
  All right, so I've got this bottle here going to hop in 12
• 53:05
  I've never had before. I'm not really a Scotch whiskey
• 53:09
  drinker drinker really at all, but I do like to.
• 53:12
  Taste things and try things out for the first time.
• 53:14
  So Heather, why don't you walk us through here?
• 53:17
  What am I looking at? What should I be expecting?
• 53:20
  And then what have I dragged you into?
• 53:23
  I think that would get pretty good into it.
• 53:24
  Yeah, Okay. So I do like a good Scotch.
• 53:30
  I am used to drinking single barrel single malt Scotches,
• 53:35
  which basically means the whiskey came from a single
• 53:39
  distillery and all from the same barrel.
• 53:44
  Those are usually higher alcohol by volumes, and that can be a
• 53:49
  little aggressive on the palate because that's when your nostril
• 53:55
  hairs light on fire and smoke comes out your ears and then you
• 53:59
  can't breathe for a little bit because your whole system goes
• 54:01
  what did you just do some. People like that.
• 54:04
  No, I didn't think starting there would be a good idea.
• 54:07
  Yeah, so instead I started you, both, you and Jim, with
• 54:10
  something that was a bit more approachable.
• 54:14
  This is, this is not a peeded Scotch because people who like
• 54:18
  peeded scotches will drink non peeded scotches.
• 54:22
  People who do not like, you know, you can only go in One
• 54:24
  Direction. Everybody will drink non peed
• 54:26
  scotches and only so. What does peed mean?
• 54:28
  Basically they mean. That means that when they were
• 54:32
  cooking the barley, they basically burnt stuff around it
• 54:36
  and had it just absorb smoke and.
• 54:39
  You know what Pete is? So it's like a Moss.
• 54:42
  Pet Moss. Yeah.
• 54:43
  Yeah. Yeah, well that's it.
• 54:45
  Like in Ireland I guess in Scotland it's very common.
• 54:49
  So they burn in their house for heat and cook their food over
• 54:53
  and stuff like that. But one of the fascinating
• 54:55
  things about Pete is depending on where you are, and again, I
• 54:58
  know that Scotch whiskey's better, right?
• 55:02
  The Pete that you're gonna get near the coast is not the same
• 55:07
  as the peak you're going to get, say in in the Highlands or
• 55:10
  something. One's going to have, it's going
• 55:12
  to be a little more salty, you know, that sort of coastal
• 55:16
  flavor to it. The other one's going to be more
• 55:17
  like heathery. It's just a different, a
• 55:21
  different flavor to it. I don't think either of them are
• 55:24
  bad. I'll drink all of it, though I
• 55:26
  will. I will be very specific as to
• 55:28
  what order I will drink it in. You know you do not start the
• 55:31
  evening with a Lafroy Scotch, because then your palate is
• 55:36
  completely destroyed for anything else after that.
• 55:39
  That's something that you have after steak?
• 55:41
  Why don't you start there? When you say palate destroyed,
• 55:44
  explain that the flavor is so strong and so overwhelming that
• 55:51
  if you try and taste anything more mild after that, you're not
• 55:55
  gonna be able to taste it well. The flavors just won't work.
• 56:00
  I know one thing with I've observed cuz I'm not really a
• 56:04
  wine drinker either, but people, you know, they smell the cork
• 56:09
  then they swirl it around in their wine glass and see if it
• 56:13
  has legs. Is there such a protocol with
• 56:17
  Scotch, or do you just pour it in and start enjoying?
• 56:20
  So yes, ish. I mean, at the end of the day
• 56:24
  you do what you want to do to enjoy what you're drinking.
• 56:26
  That's, that's the the one true rule is do what you want to do
• 56:30
  to enjoy what you're drinking. If that means putting ice in it,
• 56:33
  then put ice in it. If that means, you know, putting
• 56:35
  a drop of water in it, put a drop of water in it.
• 56:37
  You know, it's it's whatever works for you.
• 56:40
  Now that said, there's a couple things that I would say very
• 56:43
  much differ between drinking wine and drinking whiskey.
• 56:45
  So let's say you had, we're going to pick up a different
• 56:48
  glass. Let's say that this was a glass
• 56:49
  of wine. It's not a glass of water, but
• 56:51
  it's got a nice wide open top and you might want to smell it
• 56:54
  by sticking your nose right over it and taking a good deep
• 56:57
  breath. Don't do that with whiskey.
• 57:01
  Just just, I mean, move it away, move it around.
• 57:05
  But don't just shove your head in the glass, because then the
• 57:08
  alcohol fumes will, you know, cause your face to kind of kind
• 57:11
  of melt off. It's a little harsh.
• 57:15
  Another point to remember is, you know, like those fumes that
• 57:17
  you're smelling, you know, they're actually a little
• 57:22
  heavier than air. So another thing some people do
• 57:24
  is they tilt the glasses like that and smell that way and
• 57:28
  you'll find it. It actually does smell different
• 57:30
  depending on. So you have like at a 45 degree
• 57:33
  angle. How do you smell it?
• 57:35
  All right, I'm gonna open this bottle up and you're gonna tell
• 57:36
  me what I'm gonna do. So I'm gonna try and make this
• 57:39
  audio podcast friendly. You're gonna hear it ooh, hear.
• 57:42
  That. Right.
• 57:43
  And now, here's the glass. Let me.
• 57:46
  Chug chug chug. Chug, chug, chug.
• 57:48
  All right. All right.
• 57:50
  So. Now I've got to do the Bitter
• 57:52
  beer face. Nobody's going to know, but go
• 57:55
  ahead. That's great.
• 57:57
  All right, I'm gonna taste it. Okay okay now I.
• 58:04
  Feel that in my nose. Was that hot?
• 58:06
  Like, did that burn a little bit?
• 58:08
  A little bit okay. Not bad.
• 58:11
  Not as bad as I was expecting. No, it shouldn't.
• 58:14
  I didn't get you one that would do that.
• 58:17
  Thank you next time. Next time we'll we'll come with
• 58:20
  a wider variety, but one thing you might do is do you have any
• 58:25
  water? I do okay put like a drop or two
• 58:28
  of water in there. Try it again.
• 58:30
  All right. Swirl it around a little bit,
• 58:32
  yeah. It definitely cuts it, for sure.
• 58:38
  Yeah, yeah. And that's a perfectly valid
• 58:42
  life choice. It actually does a bunch of
• 58:44
  other things, chemically speaking, in terms of how the
• 58:46
  water messes with some of the bonds in the in the whiskey.
• 58:50
  But if you want to know more about that, Google it.
• 58:54
  Google it. It's complicated.
• 58:57
  It's cool, but it's complicated. So what should I be tasting
• 59:01
  because I struggled with so my wife is very much into spirits
• 59:04
  and wine and she has a great nose and palate and can tell
• 59:08
  you. Everything about everything,
• 59:09
  right? And I'm like, for me it's like
• 59:11
  it tastes like red wine or it tastes like white wine.
• 59:14
  What am I tasting as part of this Buono Hoffman So.
• 59:19
  Or what should I be getting? I should say OK, but a little
• 59:22
  bit of that is actually gonna come down to genetics and what
• 59:25
  you're sensitive to. So my sweetheart, for example,
• 59:28
  is extraordinarily sensitive to bitter flavors.
• 59:31
  He finds them overwhelming where I find them not particularly
• 59:34
  overwhelming and I actually kind of like them.
• 59:36
  I am very sensitive to vanillans the the, the thing that makes us
• 59:41
  taste like vanilla. So for me, this has a lot of
• 59:44
  vanilla flavors in it. Now if you actually go look at a
• 59:48
  a description of this particular Scotch, it will tell you that
• 59:50
  Yep, it's going to have some vanilla flavors to it.
• 59:52
  It's going to be a little bit more floral, a little sweeter,
• 59:57
  which is why I think it's a it's a good starter Scotch if that's
• 1:00:01
  something going to get into. The Glenlivet that Jim has has a
• 1:00:04
  similar. Flavor profile, which is.
• 1:00:06
  Since he couldn't get the Bunhaven, I suggested he try
• 1:00:09
  that one because at least the flavor profile should be similar
• 1:00:11
  to what we have. Of course, now you two actually
• 1:00:14
  have to like physically get together and compare and see how
• 1:00:17
  far off these are in terms of flavor, because I really want to
• 1:00:19
  know. Well, Jeff hasn't checked the
• 1:00:22
  bag in like 25 years, so I don't think he'll be able to get that
• 1:00:27
  bottle off. The travel light got to be ready
• 1:00:29
  to go whenever. Yeah.
• 1:00:31
  So I have a question. OK, so I got the Glenn Live it
• 1:00:34
  12:00, you got a 12. I also saw they had the Glenn
• 1:00:39
  Live it like 18, I think it was 200 bucks, I think they had a 25
• 1:00:43
  and it was like 700 bucks. Is it that exponentially better?
• 1:00:50
  Or what is it that you're paying for that exponentially rarer,
• 1:00:56
  Rarer. Because, I mean think about it,
• 1:00:58
  They have to, they have to hold those barrels aside for longer
• 1:01:02
  and longer and longer. And you know they're going to,
• 1:01:05
  they're going to cut, you know, at 12 years, they're going to
• 1:01:07
  take pulling numbers out of the air, half the barrels.
• 1:01:11
  So now you got half the barrels left that you're going to have
• 1:01:13
  to decide how many do you want to take for your 18 year, how
• 1:01:16
  many do you want to take for your 24 year?
• 1:01:18
  Do you want to save 3 barrels to be, you know, absolutely over
• 1:01:21
  the top and save them for a 50 year?
• 1:01:23
  Does aging at that long do anything or is there a point
• 1:01:26
  where it doesn't matter anymore? So my my personal opinion and
• 1:01:31
  what I have talked to some of the distillers agree with this
• 1:01:35
  one, is that once you get over like the 2425 year mark, you're
• 1:01:39
  not actually tasting the character of the whiskey
• 1:01:41
  anymore. You're tasting the barrel that
• 1:01:43
  the whiskey was in. That's really the only flavors
• 1:01:45
  that are left are the barrel flavors.
• 1:01:48
  Now those may be very tasty barrel flavors, right?
• 1:01:50
  Live like you want to live. If that's what you like and you
• 1:01:53
  have the pocketbook to handle the fact that you're now getting
• 1:01:56
  something that was increasingly rare and took up rent for a
• 1:01:58
  really long time and just wouldn't move out of its parents
• 1:02:00
  house, that's fine. I have seen on the market
• 1:02:06
  everything, You know, I think there's a Bunahaven 40.
• 1:02:09
  I would never buy such a thing myself, but it is out there.
• 1:02:12
  You could buy it if you had more money than since.
• 1:02:16
  So, Heather, if you bought the Bunahaven 40 and kept it in your
• 1:02:19
  cellar for 10 years, Nope. Nope, Nope, Nope.
• 1:02:24
  Unlike wine, wine continues to age in a bottle.
• 1:02:28
  Whiskey does not. Once it's because it's the bear.
• 1:02:30
  It's the contact with the barrel that's that's actually the aging
• 1:02:34
  component. Once it's out of the barrel,
• 1:02:37
  it's done. It's not going to do anything
• 1:02:39
  else really, sitting in a bottle by itself all.
• 1:02:42
  Right. My turn for tastes us.
• 1:02:44
  Go for a chip, very podcast friendly watching someone drink.
• 1:02:51
  Yeah, that's good. I've had this before I think.
• 1:02:55
  I've opened this bottle now. How long is this bottle going to
• 1:02:59
  be good for? Will it be a point where it
• 1:03:01
  oxidation or something like that might get into it?
• 1:03:03
  So it does. It does kind of depend.
• 1:03:05
  I mean, right now you've opened it, you've had maybe 2 fingers
• 1:03:09
  worth of Scotch out of it. You know what, That bottle's
• 1:03:11
  going to be just fine for a long time.
• 1:03:14
  Let's say that you enjoyed it and you got it to be about, you
• 1:03:19
  know, 3/4 of the way. Done that point, there's enough
• 1:03:22
  air in there that yeah, the oxidation will start impacting
• 1:03:25
  the flavor a little bit. But how how long that takes in
• 1:03:32
  no small to part depends on how how much you've drank already.
• 1:03:37
  So there's a chance I could take this Bunahaven 12 and turn it
• 1:03:40
  into a Bunahaven 20 by the time I'm done with it and I will have
• 1:03:43
  gotten extreme value out of it. You could take the Bunehav in 12
• 1:03:48
  and keep drinking 12 for another eight years.
• 1:03:51
  Yes, this is true, right, Okay. But it's still just gonna be a
• 1:03:54
  12. Is there some, Are you familiar
• 1:03:56
  with coravans in the wine world? She's reaching.
• 1:03:59
  She's got wow, she had it like she's packing, folks.
• 1:04:01
  She's got her coravan machine right there.
• 1:04:03
  So we use this in our house too. For those who aren't familiar
• 1:04:05
  with it, it's basically a needle that gets injected into the cork
• 1:04:09
  of a wine bottle and the concept is replace.
• 1:04:14
  What has been lost within the bottle itself with an inner gas,
• 1:04:17
  usually like Aragon, because it will not affect the contents of
• 1:04:22
  the bottle itself and so we use it in our house.
• 1:04:24
  My wife is a big fan of it. I think we're on our third core
• 1:04:27
  event at this point. We've used it so much so and
• 1:04:29
  they're not cheap, but is there something similar for something
• 1:04:33
  like this? Or it doesn't matter because it
• 1:04:34
  really is not the same type of concept?
• 1:04:38
  I'm not aware of anything similar to that.
• 1:04:41
  I'm not aware of a need for anything similar to that.
• 1:04:44
  Well, there goes my million dollar.
• 1:04:45
  Yeah, I guess we'll keep doing identity podcasts.
• 1:04:47
  And drink. Drink it faster than that.
• 1:04:50
  Drink it faster. Don't let us sit around for
• 1:04:52
  eight years. Well, the Corbin's great if you
• 1:04:54
  have a really nice bottle of wine where oxidation is
• 1:04:56
  definitely a threat, especially once you open up that wine.
• 1:04:59
  That's why a lot of times people want.
• 1:05:00
  To go back in a week, right? Yeah, and so being able to have
• 1:05:04
  a nice bottle of wine, you know, or have a nice glass of wine
• 1:05:08
  without having to, you know. Take the entire bottle at once
• 1:05:11
  or you know if you've got a good collection.
• 1:05:12
  Rivers, I find it interesting, but this is very cool.
• 1:05:15
  So this is. I will be honest, I'm not much
• 1:05:17
  of A drinker, but this is better than I thought it would be so I
• 1:05:22
  don't know. I hope you take that in the
• 1:05:23
  compliment that that I am trying to give it into.
• 1:05:26
  I'm glad I did not poison you and turn you off to ever
• 1:05:29
  drinking with me again. Yeah, no, I will be happy to
• 1:05:33
  cheer as well with you at some point in the future.
• 1:05:35
  Hopefully in a less awkward semicircle standing around with
• 1:05:38
  either. I don't know.
• 1:05:40
  Or others Ian, etcetera, as we're kind of congregating and
• 1:05:43
  identity hallways. I have one more question, one
• 1:05:45
  more question. So I'm wondering if like the if
• 1:05:48
  you have an opinion on Scotch with cigars.
• 1:05:52
  I don't really partake in either very often, but it seems like
• 1:05:56
  people who smoke cigars like to drink Scotch and play golf.
• 1:06:02
  I have heard. I have.
• 1:06:03
  I have heard that. I have also observed that I am
• 1:06:06
  not one of those people, because for people who don't know me and
• 1:06:11
  who are just listening on the podcast, I have very long hair.
• 1:06:14
  One thing that hair does is absorb smells.
• 1:06:17
  And so if I was being around someone who is smoking or
• 1:06:20
  smoking something myself, I would.
• 1:06:23
  My hair just would just absorb that and I would smell like that
• 1:06:27
  for a while until I managed to get into a shower.
• 1:06:29
  And that's just not a thing that works for me.
• 1:06:31
  So no. I hear you.
• 1:06:33
  I worked at Chili's for a long time and I'd come home smelling
• 1:06:36
  like fajitas. You become, it's almost like you
• 1:06:39
  get used to the the smell and you can't smell on yourself.
• 1:06:42
  So somebody has to tell you, boy, something that smells
• 1:06:45
  delicious in here, smells like fajitas, like okay.
• 1:06:47
  I better take a shower or something.
• 1:06:50
  All right, We're going to go ahead and wrap it up for this
• 1:06:53
  week. Heather, thank you so much for
• 1:06:55
  sharing time with us today and kind of talking through all the
• 1:06:58
  stuff you're working on, your many, many hats we're going to
• 1:07:01
  have. This might be a record for
• 1:07:03
  number of show. Notes, links in our show notes,
• 1:07:06
  that sort of thing. I'm going to have a connection
• 1:07:09
  information for Heather on LinkedIn.
• 1:07:11
  You can learn more about Spherical Cow consulting at
• 1:07:13
  Spherical Cow consulting.com What is the spherical cow?
• 1:07:17
  Well, I will conveniently place the wiki article right below
• 1:07:20
  that link. Also link to the article that we
• 1:07:24
  reference here. The blog article that Heather
• 1:07:25
  wrote around government issued digital credentials and privacy.
• 1:07:28
  Also the ID Pro Body of knowledge.
• 1:07:31
  The ID pro GitHub. All of our various discount
• 1:07:34
  codes for Octane for Identity Week America and definitely for
• 1:07:40
  the Authenticate Conference, as well as links for people connect
• 1:07:44
  and send pictures of Whoppers Candy to Jim, which I tweeted
• 1:07:49
  that this morning as part of our we can roll out this this
• 1:07:52
  morning. So hopefully you'll start to get
• 1:07:53
  those into your LinkedIn, but if you haven't, I definitely.
• 1:07:56
  Love Whoppers. So we'll go ahead and wrap it up
• 1:07:59
  for this week. We're on the web, IDAC
• 1:08:01
  podcast.com, Twitter or X or whatever the heck it's called.
• 1:08:04
  By the time you listen to this. IDAC at IDAC podcasts, Mastodon
• 1:08:09
  at IDAC Podcast at Infosec, dot exchange.
• 1:08:13
  Hit us up on LinkedIn and don't forget to like subscribe.
• 1:08:16
  All that cool stuff that helps us out, gets great guests like
• 1:08:19
  Heather and others to join us. And funds are very expensive,
• 1:08:23
  about to be very expensive. Scotch whiskey drinking habits
• 1:08:25
  that Heather has gotten us on to.
• 1:08:27
  So with that, thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk
• 1:08:30
  with everyone in the next one. You've been listening to
• 1:08:33
  Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
• 1:08:37
  Make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon.
• 1:08:42
  But in the meantime, hit the website at
• 1:08:44
  identity@thecenter.com and find us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast.
• 1:08:52
  See you next time on Identity at the Center.