Latest / Babes, how did you get here / From Chicago to Kingston: The Violinist Who Chose Jamaica Over Carnegie Hall

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From Chicago to Kingston: The Violinist Who Chose Jamaica Over Carnegie Hall · Babes, how did you get here

• 0:00
  I remember having this like out of body experience. I got all choked up and I told my mom, wait, that's what I'm going to be. She said, you don't even practice your piano. I'm not getting any violin for you. And you know, I think like that. I had to beg for six months. Six months. Six months. And she finally gave it to me and I couldn't put it down.
• 0:17
  I will say it became an obsession. I didn't need friends because I had my violin. I finally heard a sound that expressed me. So, I mean, when I say friend, I mean, it was my friend. And my teacher made me feel like I was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Because when I look back now, I was scratching on Twinkle, but he just made me feel like I was the latest. That's amazing. I was like, oh, yes, I'm amazing.
• 0:43
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• 1:01
  Welcome to A Life Elsewhere, the podcast that dives into the lives of people who have packed up, started over and built something new far from home. Today's guest is Dr. Lisa Walker, a professional violinist, devoted educator and mother to seven incredible children. But she didn't come to Jamaica looking for sunshine or slow living. She came here for love, a deep, enduring love of her Jamaican husband, Courtney, whose happiness is rooted in this island.
• 1:31
  Whilst Lisa would not have necessarily chosen Jamaica as her home, it is the place that she has built a life full of meaning, raising a large, grounded family with care, insight and hard-won wisdom, always having music as her anchor. In this episode, we explore the quiet power of sacrifice.
• 1:50
  the complexity of choosing someone else's dream, and why Lisa believes that every child should learn an instrument. Her story is honest and moving and full of lessons that only life and love can teach.
• 2:03
  Lisa, I'm so excited to speak with you as a musician, as a mom of seven. I mean, when we had our little introductory chat, I had so much. I think we're talking on the phone for like two hours. Yeah. Plus the longest person I've ever spoken to because you just give so much and your energy is just comforting. So thank you so much. You come to Jamaica, you're married. I'd love to take it back because you've actually lived here a few times. Could you take me back to the first time you ever came to Jamaica?
• 2:33
  Okay, so this would be like 1992, 93. So I had a boyfriend who was half Filipino and half Jamaican. Really? Yeah, his mom was from the island of the Philippines. Yes. And his dad was from Newmarket. I've never heard of that mix. They met in Canada and moved to Chicago, where I'm from.
• 2:55
  Yes. So we started dating. Now, he had an uncle who worked at Andrews Memorial Hospital. Yes. Yeah. For like 30 years. And he was like, OK, I'm going to be like my uncle. OK. So I'm going to go through the Seventh-day Adventist Church and I'm going to be a missionary doctor. And so I was like, Jamaica, let me look that up on a map.
• 3:16
  And I said, okay, so if I'm going to have to live here, let me see what the island is about. Sure. So at that time, it was actually called West Indies College. Oh, really? Yeah, West Indies College. As in UWE? NCU. Oh, NCU. NCU, West Indies College. Okay. This is before, right. So I came down for like a summer intensive. Sure. And I taught for three months. Okay. At West Indies College. Okay. Just, you know, music and violin and...
• 3:39
  Although they were beginners, but anyway, that's another story. And so that was my first introduction to the island, and I loved it. I mean, the guard would bring me, it's my first time tasting, it was mackerel, and it was nice and spicy with these boiled bananas. Mackerel rondon in coconut sauce? Okay, you see? Okay.
• 3:58
  It has a thing, right? Macro rundown, yes. Yeah. So it's mackerel cooked with spices and like a coconut broth with green banana. There it is. That's what it was. And he used to bring it. And that was my first taste of Jamaica, along with the patty. Sure. Because they took me the
• 4:14
  Tasty. Tasty. Yeah, beef. So I feel in love with it. I mean, the people were so accommodating and welcoming. My class started off with like three people in it. Okay. And by the time I left in three months, it was full. It was like almost 200 people trying to cram into a room. Yeah. So hold on. This is just here for a little taster, a holiday, but working to see perhaps if you could come full time. Exactly. Exactly. So I was doing my master's, so they brought me down as a guest lecturer.
• 4:43
  Okay. That was the official title. And you're saying that the class started off with a few students. Just a few, because they were like, well, what is orchestral literature? Sure. I mean, what is the sounds of the symphony? So you're not actually teaching how to play? Well, that was a separate class. This was the main class that you could register for credit. Okay. And so it was teaching all about the orchestra, the instruments of the orchestra, what to listen for.
• 5:07
  about your class, the word got out that everybody wants to come. I think because violin and orchestra, they see that as like high class and not within their reach. And maybe they wouldn't be able to understand. But after the first couple of classes, they went around and told their friends, you've got to come hear this. Really? Right. So everybody in the room was able to relate. Because when you left the room, you felt more intelligent. Okay. Right. You can now look at a symphony and say, oh, that's the
• 5:35
  percussion section. Sure, I understand. Or did you hear that oboe solo? I mean, you sound more. And so they wanted that. And I guess it wasn't available on the island. And then the few places it was, I think it was a little, they made you feel that if you weren't of a certain class, you weren't welcome. Then you didn't belong. Yeah, that kind of thing. There was that classism thing going on. So not in my class.
• 5:56
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• 6:12
  Amazing. Not in my class, so. And then as a teacher at that time, did you think, OK, I could definitely live here. My students love me. I'm now into Macri Rondo and I'm coming back. Well, I have to say that was the honeymoon phase. OK. That was the honeymoon phase. I mean, they treated me so lovely. I mean, they brought me food. The food was awesome. The students were so attentive. Sure. I thought for sure.
• 6:36
  you know, I can live here. Right. You know, I got the best. You know, like when tourists come, I got the best part of Jamaica. I mean, I can say you can edit this out if you don't want it. No.
• 6:45
  But at that time, it's like, oh, you know, what can I bring you? In fact, you didn't even have to ask. They wanted to show you Bear Island. And in a rude stop, I'm just going to go over to Devon House, where I just went to ask for it. At that time, it wasn't that big house that they have now. It was a little hut. I went to ask for some ice cream. So I couldn't quite read what was on there because it was all. So I asked the lady, you know, what flavors do you have?
• 7:11
  And she just kept wiping off the counter as if she didn't hear me. So I said, excuse me. You know, that's why I stood here. She turned to me, her face turned black. She was like, you can't read. You know, I'm at the top of her voice, thinking,
• 7:28
  No, you know, what did I talk about? Yeah, what happened? It all evaporated. And so I was like, no, actually, I can't read it. And it just went downhill from there. And that's that's when I realized, OK, now. Is that on the same trip? Actually, it was. OK, it was. It was just that because she drove me in. Yeah. And it was a jerk. But I thought, OK, maybe.
• 7:47
  It was a bad day for her. But then since living here, I know that you have to suite the person up. That's what my husband calls it. You have to suite them up if you want good service. So case in point, we got to your building here today. And the guard was sitting there talking with her friend, having a lovely conversation right downstairs. And I arrive and she's like, yeah. I said, well, I'm here to see April.
• 8:14
  You gotta sign in. The book is closed, there's no pen. I say, can I borrow a pen? She's like, you know. And it was really stiff until my husband showed up. Okay. He comes in and he's like, hey, how about this breeze? And he gets all laughing and talking and then I don't have any problems anymore.
• 8:32
  She's like, oh, you know, here, you can sign here. And that's all she wanted. She just wanted somebody to acknowledge her existence and how are you doing today? And look at this great, she's like, you must love working here because she's like, well, it's not really all that happy because maybe the work conditions, but yeah, it's a nice view. So you have to suite them up if you want. This is funny that you're saying this, right? Because now I'm thinking, when I arrived here this morning,
• 8:57
  There was a security downstairs and he had really pretty eyes. And I saw him yesterday, but I never noticed his pretty eyes. So I said to him, you had the pretty eyes yesterday? He said, yeah, man, I had them in there, but he never did look. I said, so you can't share them. And my sister's on the phone. My sister's very British. She's like, only you turn up to security and start telling both his eyes, right?
• 9:16
  And I was like, but this is Jamaica for me. And so it's really interesting to hear how you're coming from a U.S. perspective. Is that fair to say? Yeah. So you're coming from a U.S. perspective. And because it's not necessarily natural that that's what you do in the States, right? Like have the banter, have the sweet up, as you put. Yeah.
• 9:36
  that that therefore dictates your experience with people. And then your husband comes in being Jamaican and understands. And maybe also it's just naturally that more inclined to behave that way. And now I'm thinking like, I didn't even think of it as a Jamaican thing. I just thought,
• 9:52
  we just chat too much, but now that you're saying this, then that would obviously dictate why I love being here for that banter, because I miss it so much. I miss it so much when I'm away and nobody talks. They're just so professional. And I'm like, there's no, but now I completely get how it can go either way.
• 10:09
  if it's not like what we're used to. Exactly. So the Devon House lady showed you that you never know the sweet top yet. Yeah, I didn't know. I did not know. I mean, I did not. I still haven't mastered it. But in my own way, I just kind of ask different things like, you know, what's your favorite one? You know, kind of thing. I mean, they can hear that there is an...
• 10:29
  Accent issue. Does it ever make you apprehensive, you know, before you enter perhaps new environments or where you don't really know people? I can read the room generally. Sure. And so I know whether I'm going to get through or not. Okay. Right. So I guess it doesn't really take me by surprise because if they give me eye contact and they, then I'm probably going to get through. Right. Right. But if they keep going, you know, if they kind of glance at me and glance back down, I'm probably not going to get through unless I... Okay. Okay.
• 10:57
  Whereas when you just came, you didn't really understand that. No, I didn't know. I really didn't know. Right. You know, there's just... So your first three months, you go back to Chicago at this point? Uh-huh. I was in Chicago getting my master's. And then you come back. How... So what was that time period? So we... So I got my master's, we got married, and we got our first child together. Right. So we came back here when that first child was two years old. So I'm going to say...
• 11:23
  1997. Why did you come having had this mixed experience, a bit negative and a bit positive? Why did you? Oh, it was mostly positive. Oh, it was? Okay. Yeah, no, it was just that. That incident. Yeah, and I just kind of isolated that incident. I didn't know, yeah, that it would actually be a hard life.
• 11:40
  So you come here still quite optimistic because you had the mackerel and you loved your students. Are you coming back to go straight into teaching at this point? Yeah, well not really. We came so that he could do, I'm going to call it the missionary doctor. Okay, because he's still trying to get to that stage in medicine. Right, right. And then I was just the wife with the kids, but of course.
• 12:06
  I wanted to teach violin and share my expertise. And this time it was in Kingston. OK. Right. So the people said, oh, you know, it's a reggae based country. And you know, you're not going to find two students that are interested in violin. OK. And it's true. My first semester was two students.
• 12:23
  It was, yeah, Dr. Stern's child from the hospital and their friend. Okay. So it was really two. But then I took those two students and we would play at schools, we'd play at church, you know, kind of thing. And...
• 12:39
  Before I left, it was up to 150 kids. You just have this thing about you. You start off with nobody and then you end up with everybody. Yeah, well, I show them the joy of why I play. Okay. Right. So lessons with me, it's just, it's an expression of yourself. Can I ask how you got into the violin? Yeah. So my mom was the church organist.
• 12:59
  Oh, really? Yeah, she was a church organist. And so they prophesied that, you know, your child's going to be a musician, you know. So she started me on piano, but there was no magic. Okay. There really... Piano is a percussion instrument. When you click it, I mean...
• 13:16
  Violin, for example, you play an E on the piano and all you're going to get is the note E. Right. You play an E on the violin and you can sweet it up to the degree that you need to, right? So I think it's just the wrong instrument. So when I was nine, I saw the first time, it was Betty Haig. She has a Suzuki program in Chicago and they were having this concert in Chicago Halls, Chicago Symphony Center it is now.
• 13:42
  they were playing, I now know the piece, they were playing the Vivaldi. Okay. Yeah. And I remember having this like out of body experience. I got all choked up and I told my mom, wait,
• 13:55
  that's what I'm going to be. She said, you don't even practice your piano. I'm not getting any violin for you. You know, I think like that. I had to beg for six months. Six months. Six months. And she finally gave it to me and I couldn't put it down. I will say it became an obsession. Right. I didn't need friends because I had my violin. Really? I did all of my talking through it. At nine? Yeah, I finally
• 14:17
  heard a sound that expressed me. Wow. So, I mean, when I say friend, I mean, it was my friend. Right. That's what I did.
• 14:27
  You know, on a Saturday, nine hours a day. Are you having formal lessons at this point? Yeah, I had formal. And my teacher made me feel like I was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Really? Yeah. Do you think you would have been the same professional violinist without that teacher? No, I needed that teacher. I always say teachers, I mean, clearly we know that teachers are just undervalued everywhere. Academic, whatever kind of teacher. And I'm always like, a teacher makes or breaks it. Yeah. You know, like you get a teacher, for example, I hate the chemistry.
• 14:53
  My chemistry teacher was just super boring. I didn't like chemistry. And then I had extra lessons classes with a really cool chemistry teacher. And then I loved chemistry.
• 15:02
  The teacher is everything. Yeah. Because when I look back now, I was scratching on Twinkle, but he just made me feel like I was the latest high-pitched. You were already in the orchestra in his mind. Yeah. He just made me feel like, he was like, oh my god. He would turn to my mom and say, look how fast she learned that. That's amazing. I was like, oh, yes, I'm amazing. Right? And I do the same thing with my students. I love that. It works. I love that. Amazing. So you start playing the violin at nine, and you know that this is what you're doing for the rest of your life.
• 15:31
  Yeah. And then what's the process for becoming a professional? Oh, let me tell you, at nine I was behind. Oh, really? Yeah, it was really stressful, which is another reason why I practice like nine hours a day on a Saturday. You're behind at nine? I was behind. What time? They start at 2, 3. Really? And by eight sometimes. My four year olds are behind.
• 15:50
  No, four is good. It's okay? You still have time? Yeah. Okay. But you know, when you start, you start. Start, okay. Yeah, so you can be through the Suzuki books at like eight or nine years old, so you can start standard literature at ten.
• 16:03
  So people are starting two to four, and you come in at nine, so you have to do extra. Yeah, and this is, I want to make a distinction between recreational violin and being a violinist. Okay, so I'm in Chicago. Okay, so yes, if you want to do recreational, I guess you can start in here. But if you want to be a violin, you're going to be on standard literature by 10 years old, or you're going to find yourself slightly behind, right? Or have to practice the catch-up, which is what I had to do. How long do you feel that it took you to get to the catch-up? When I was 19,
• 16:32
  I was almost there, but I didn't realize it. So you feel like it took you 10 years? Oh, yeah. Wow. Oh, yeah.
• 16:41
  I mean, there are markers to know if you're making it. Okay. Yeah, one of the markers is making it into the Civic Orchestra of Chicago, which is the training orchestra for the Chicago Symphony. Okay. Right, so you make it in. So my first time, I didn't make it in. Oh, really? And presumably to get in, you have to do some sort of recital in front of people judging you? Audition. Okay. And so you got in the second time? Second time I did. When you didn't get in, talk me through the feelings. Well...
• 17:11
  Since I got the whole thing wrong, I felt I didn't have... Which time you got the whole thing wrong? I walked in and I started talking. And that's a no-no. Oh, really? Yes. From that... Sorry. Okay. Please excuse my ignorance. Yeah. So you walk in. Yeah. How many people are judging you?
• 17:28
  You don't know? There's a screen there. Oh, you can't have a set of people? Oh, Lord. And they don't want to know if you're male, if you're female. They don't want to know anything. So they can't see you? No. And you can't see them? No. And the person bringing me into the room didn't say anything. Okay. So you're standing there. There's a music stand. There's the music. Sure.
• 17:45
  And no one's talking. How old are we at this point? Hmm, is it 19, 18? So we're 18, we walk in, no one's speaking, there's just a screen, you can't see anyone. Maybe I was 17, somewhere there. 17, 18. Yeah, somewhere. And what do you start saying when you start speaking? I asked them, which excerpt would you like me to start with? Okay. Because there's more than one excerpt. Right, and that was a no-no. Well, I could hear the room, I could hear
• 18:12
  Oh no. But someone could have given you the memo. Okay. Okay. So the person that walked you in didn't say just start with... So how are people supposed to know? Well, they know. They have parents. They have, you see, my kids are in the know. Like right now, before I came to you, I was running through literature.
• 18:32
  With my eight-year-old son, who's going to Interlochen summer camp for his first time. Okay. He got a full scholarship. He's in the advanced division. Interlochen is a summer camp. Yep. There's other divisions, but for the music, you audition to go there, and then they keep these kids for four weeks or six weeks. And you do music. You play concerts. You know, that kind of thing. Okay. So they said, we'll give them the music when they get here. Okay. All right. Now, I have the memo.
• 19:00
  I went and got the music. I'm going through it with my child. So when he shows up, he's prepared. They're gonna say, oh, wow, what a great sight reader. You know, that kind of thing. Same thing happened when I went to London. They called it the sight reading orchestra, but nobody's sight reading. You prepped. Yeah, everybody preps.
• 19:18
  Right. I didn't know that, though. Sure. So if you have parents, for example, that are in or friends, good friends or in the more or an invested teacher. Yes. They'll say when you go to. So when my students first go to any competition or anything, I'm right there with them to make sure there's no they know
• 19:36
  the pro, you know, the ins and outs, the running. What's crazy to me is that you're saying, you know, just by speaking and you hear the sigh and you know that that's not what they're looking for. Yeah. It's like you haven't even got the chance to show what kind of player you are. And so just by not knowing the rules or the lay of the land, you've exposed yourself. Yeah, my first time with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, I mean, I was so happy to be there. OK.
• 20:01
  I walked in and I just opened my case and I took my instrument out. And then I, all I did was close the case and it just went click. Everybody in the room turned to me and said, she's new. Don't do that. Yeah. There could be a rehearsal going on. You don't allow your violin case to click close. You close it. You close it gently with no sound. I didn't get the memo. So my, my kids have the memo.
• 20:29
  That's incredible. Do all your children play? I know you have seven children. They all play. And do they all play the strings? Yeah. But they choose which one because each instrument, as you play it, there's a different feedback. So when you play the violin, it's highly stimulatory. When you play the lower strings, for example, cello, it's a grounding experience.
• 20:54
  So you allow them to choose which instrument they want to play? And how do you go about kind of sifting through for them? Well, OK, so I'll start with Luke, right? In the, he was like two. And I got him a little violin. And when we got to the E string, he backed away. OK, he said,
• 21:11
  He said, no, no, he said, I want the one where you sit down. The one where you sit down. So I said, OK, the cello. I went and got him a viola with an end pen because they didn't make cellos that small. OK. And so, yeah. And then the other ones, they would hear Luke and me practicing, so you have violin.
• 21:27
  and cello, and they would crawl to one room or another. So we know what, if they want that highly stimulatory, if they want the more grounding. And then Jada took viola, and then for the other kids growing, the other three, they got to hear violin, viola, cello. So they could choose. Yeah, and when they're young, you'll know. They'll move away from that room, because they're not enjoying that sound, or they'll move towards. So like, Alex and Zara, they're super close.
• 21:55
  But when Zara starts practicing violin, you would see him crawl from Zara's room over to the cello room. Physically doesn't want to be there. Yeah, so I already knew which one, you know. And you start all of them around too? It depends. Okay, what does it depend on? Anywhere between two and five.
• 22:14
  I would say, well, A, my availability. Sometimes I'm working with that other child. But B, it really has to do with their level of focus. Okay. You know, some kids,
• 22:28
  Okay, so you have little ones and they're busy having their creative thoughts, you know, and some will kind of want to do that for longer than others. And then you'll have some that just like my Emma, at two, she said, I'm ready for my lessons. Really? And I said, oh, but I'm not ready. Because two and a half is a little young, you know.
• 22:52
  She was like, no, I'm ready. And she stood there. And so I realized I have to teach her. You said I better get ready. Yeah. And then other ones, like my son, I have to go. I have to say, OK, well, we're almost going on five now. I think I've allowed you to kind of do your thing. You know, we'll start small. We'll start with just one second of, can we do the bow hold? Wow. OK, great. And tomorrow, can we do the bow hold and the cello hold? Super. The next day, bow hold, cello, play one note, you know, and that kind of thing. And you're just kind of.
• 23:19
  Just like school, I guess. You know, make sure they get each day you add on to what they learned the day before. Oh, that's really funny. And we just treated it as a subject, you know, reading, math, music. It's not until Luke was nine. He was the game changer where there was a German cellist, believe it or not, that came to Jamaica.
• 23:38
  And he heard him play and he was like, oh, mom, that's what I'm going to do. Okay. You know, same sort of body. I would say out of the seven, he is the only one so far that has chosen music as his career. Okay. Right. So, but it happened then. And I said, okay, well, you have to move from like 30 minutes to like two hours, you know, per day. Are you willing to do that? And he said, yes, I am.
• 23:58
  So that was the beginning. How old is he now? He's 20. And so he still is a musician? Yes, he's full scholarship at Berklee College of Music in Boston. They only give two per year and he got one of them.
• 24:11
  You know I wanted to say shut up. Yeah. You can, you can. You can. Really? They only give two and they gave one to your baby. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Do you feel like you and him are the most alike in general or is it just this one instrument that he... Just...
• 24:29
  Just the instrument. I just wondered if it's like a character thing to be that like disciplined and dedicated. Oh, no, I didn't say it was disciplined and dedicated. Oh, I said he said, OK, you'll move it to two hours a day. Now, what you do in that two hours, I think was it was a learning curve for him. Yeah. So like, for example,
• 24:52
  some of the other kids, they have better focus. Right. Right. So he's very, in fact, if he were to receive a label, he would receive one of like ADD or ADHD or something like that, you know. But because I didn't put him in school, you know, he didn't. But he's highly creative. Amazing. I learned so much from Luke. Sure. Right, I'll give you an example. We're four years old, he's four years old, and we're coloring.
• 25:18
  I stayed within the lines and my picture looks perfect. He took up his blue crayon and he, what lines? He just goes, and when we put the pictures up side by side, his is alive. Okay. And mine- Is it restrained, usually? It just didn't have the vibrancy of his picture. And from there, it's just been a learning curve. I just hugged him before I came. I just said,
• 25:45
  you teach me so much in life. You met a girl from Germany and he was like, oh, I'm passing through, you know, and you know, he just, his vibrancy for life is just, it's just a learning experience for me. I just, all of my kids, but if we're talking just Luke, it's his vibrancy for life and his love for people and people love him. So your children, seven of them, are they born here?
• 26:14
  Only one I tried to have here, but as I said, we were airlifted after she was born here and then, you know,
• 26:22
  her APGAR score was low. Sorry, her what? APGAR. I don't know what that is. When you have a child and they give you, check out the child, see how well they're doing. Okay. So it was very low. I think I was borderline gestational diabetic, but I think they just didn't diagnose it or something. Okay. But she was like nine pounds. And so I think that lost, but they didn't know. They thought she was having seizures or they weren't sure.
• 26:45
  So they took her to a bust-a-mont. Which number child? Where are we? This is second one. Second child? Yeah, second child. And this is your experience? Yeah. Okay. So that's why none of the other three, four, five, six, seven people never will make that trip to Florida. Wow. Okay. So your children are born in the States? Yeah. In the States? Yeah. And none of them went to school here? Yeah.
• 27:09
  I'm going to say no. The eight year old has tried a few schools here. Okay. You don't want to talk about? Oh, no, no. I don't mind if it's okay. So we did creative kids for three months. Okay. And we did... What age is... He was... Oh, what age? It's K through six. K through six. Yeah. And then we did AISK for the other part of the year. Right. Right. And then we tried Little Leaders Academy. And how old was your child at this time?
• 27:38
  anywhere between six and eight. Okay, and it just didn't work. Why? Oh, well, each place is a different reason. I'm going to say,
• 27:53
  It wasn't a good fit. Okay. Okay, so in the first case, I'm just using case in point, he's six years old and he is gifted at math. Yes. So they said, oh, we will move you through the grades. Right. So they moved him all the way up to third grade and he's with eight, nine, and ten-year-olds. Right. Okay. He said, mom, their conversation is different. Okay. Completely different. So I realized... As in socially. Yeah, socially. So they moved him up...
• 28:21
  For all the classes, not just for maths. He's not the only one. Anyone in the Jamaican school system, if you are super young, they don't have a gifted program. Sure. They send them up through the grades, so you will be taking pep at nine years old with all these other...
• 28:37
  I did CXC in grade nine, and you're supposed to do CXC in grade 11. Exam, case in point. But I did maths in grade nine, but just maths. They didn't put me up for everything. And then they basically had to create a class for me because now I don't need to do maths anymore with everybody else because I already have the qualification that everybody's working to. And I was lucky enough that I went to a small private school, and so they created another program that was an international program, so I had something else to work on. But I didn't know that they were just...
• 29:06
  putting the whole student up that far. I mean, he must be really gifted. I clearly wasn't as gifted. No, no, no, you did it, you did it. But I understand what you're saying socially. Yeah, socially, that wasn't going to work out. OK. Yeah. And then he ran into some other problems. Is there any way that AC, I'm cold? Sure, we can turn it off. He ran into some other problems in that, OK, so in this particular school,
• 29:36
  You have a runner called Shelly Ann Fraser. Yes. Okay, so her son goes there. Okay. And then you have somebody else called Pernell Charles. Okay. Okay, so his son was in the class with my son. Yes. Okay, so you have this whole Jamaican thing going on. Sure. All right. Now, if your child comes in and they start naturally scoring above. Okay.
• 29:59
  the superstars of the class. Right. It is a problem. They will drop your... The teachers. The teachers, right? First of all, for the teachers,
• 30:09
  If they're teaching the best and a child from outside comes in and is over the class, then... Don't you just get excited? No, it gives the impression that our kids aren't getting what that child got. So the teachers themselves... Get defensive. Yeah, and they don't want that to happen. They don't want that narrative.
• 30:29
  So they started playing with his math scores, for example, his area, making sure it was under, in this case, Pernell Charles and there was another little girl. How do you play with math scores? Because the one thing I love about math is that it's not subjective. Like, you know, four plus two is always going to be six. Yeah. Regardless of who's marking. It's how much you, I thought so too. And I asked Alex, he said, okay, when I miss a question, I get three points taken off. When Pernell misses a question, he only gets one point taken off. Literally. Yeah, that's how they play with the scores.
• 30:56
  How ridiculous. Yeah. And I said, how do you know? OK. Yeah. Yeah. Because I asked Alex, he said, because we looked at each other's papers. So did we then ask the teachers, what the hell are you doing?
• 31:11
  No, we just said we're done. No, yeah. Well, what I do is I kind of look at the whole situation. Sure. And I understood. Okay. I'm going to say that. I understood. Okay, and that was enough. Yeah. Okay. Because what really were they going to do? Sure. I mean, you know, I know if I had been patient and allowed the low scores for a year or so,
• 31:31
  What, at the detriment of your child's self-esteem? Yeah, but it happens that way even in music, for example, when I put my kids in Juilliard, pre-college program, and I'm a violin teacher, my child came to another violin teacher, and, you know, she's playing a certain literature, and the teacher told her, oh, no, no, no, you mustn't play literature that's too advanced for you. And so Zara said, I played that three years ago. Right, right.
• 31:57
  But we found out that she had another student around the same age that she wanted to play that piece. So it's the same thing. I mean, you're supposed to give this image that you are... I guess the pill is easier for me to swallow with more things that are subjective than something like maths.
• 32:13
  where you can't even pretend, like what you've described in terms of the points. It's still an A, it's still an A, but like for example. Yeah, but it's rude. So, right, his A was, it used to be 97, 98. Sure. But her nails was like 94, so they made his 93. Just out of principle that would piss me off. Yeah. But I understood it. I decided not, you know, it's a whole system that I'm coming into. Sure. Right. So you felt that the best thing was for your children to be homeschooled. Right. Can you tell me a bit about homeschooling seven children?
• 32:44
  Yes. What is the... I just, like, I don't understand my brain. You know, it's not... I'm not averse to homeschooling. You know I'm really intrigued by homeschooling. I think that I would probably end up homeschooling my children, but I don't have two. And I'm just like, how does one homeschool seven children? Yeah. Well, I will say that... Oh, first of all, there's the first two, and then there's a 10-year gap and a difference, so they weren't really... So it's the five that were in the homeschool. I will say there are some women... Yes. That their goal...
• 33:13
  is to homeschool. Okay. That was not my goal. Okay. I found myself homeschooling because I needed to meet my children's needs. So you mean when you had kids, you thought that your children were gonna go to school, traditional schooling. That's correct. But based on the circumstances, you said we need to switch this plan. That's correct. Which sounds even more daunting. Yeah.
• 33:34
  When you realize that what your child needs, it's not exactly going to be, that school is not going to be tailored towards what your child needs. And it's funny that you say that because I always say to people, I think sometimes as a society, we don't think of education as a business.
• 33:49
  And I'm like, it is a business and we need to apply the same business principles in the sense that I'm a consumer and I'm looking for where I want to spend my money, right? With which business. And when people ask me about schooling my girls, I'm like, look, if I don't find the appropriate institution based on my core values, I can never expect that institution to bend and weave for one customer. That's right. Right. In the same way that you go to the supermarket. Right.
• 34:16
  want Thai mango sticky rice, because you just came back from your holiday, it's not just gonna be available to you because you want wanted. So I completely understand what you mean when you say that you were looking for your kids needs to be met, and therefore you had to change gifts. I had to. As a mother, an intuitive mother, watching your child go into an environment that you know is not helping them. And each child has something different.
• 34:44
  And can I quickly ask the age gaps between? Yeah, so all the kids are exactly like anywhere between two and a half years. Exactly, two years, three months, to two years, eight months. So you start homeschooling the first. And I'm guessing at that point, there's an inclination that if I have more children, I'm going to be homeschooling them too. Well, so I want to say the kids are like 75%, 80% homeschooled. Because at that point, when I did have the second one, I did put them in. We were in Naperville.
• 35:13
  Okay. And I did put them in for, and usually we get about half the year in before I realize it's not working. Is that working? Okay. So it's not just a Jamaica thing it hasn't worked. No, no, no. Okay. That's refreshing. Yeah, no, no, no. This was a 10 school. Okay. This was a 10 school. And the first thing is the kindergarten. So Luke now was in second grade. Yes. And where are we at this point? Which country?
• 35:36
  United States we're in Chicago or Naperville okay right and it's a 10 school like the top and it was public Okay great even better right so Luke was in second grade and then Jada yes she was the one Now that's my reader and so they were like they tested her and said oh we're gonna put her in second grade too Oh with her brother with her brother at four years old I said oh that is so not going to happen
• 36:05
  We're not doing that. We're not doing that. So I allowed them to skip her one grade into first grade, under, just under. And then even in first grade, for English class, they would take my child out of the English class, take them to the library. Okay. And said, here are all the books, first grade through sixth grade. You can go ahead and read. So already she felt isolated. 100%. Yep.
• 36:27
  She was completely isolated, so she felt okay. So I realized this child wants to read, and I did. So when I homeschooled her, for example, we would go to the library, everybody else would take out one book to read for the week. She took the entire row. The whole shelf. She took the whole shelf, right? And she read like Les Miserables, a 1700 page book in like one night. I mean, do you?
• 36:49
  Yeah, so what's cool is going to accommodate that. Sure. You know, and then the way they were accommodating, it was isolating. I mean, what's the point of going to school then only to say in front of all the kids, you are different, you know, and not necessarily in a positive way at that age and stage. And also when something starts out as positive, the way it's experienced isn't positive. No, it's not. I mean, she's already a black girl in a white environment, so, you know, that take out kind of thing. And then my son was having the opposite experience. Okay. Right?
• 37:19
  I laughed at that experience because he's not necessary. He's like easygoing. He's like, is this a chair? Oh, great. So you know how long can I sit here, right?
• 37:31
  So the lady was saying, oh, you know, because they did the classrooms, you know, they had the gifted program and a regular. And then they put them in the bottom one. And I was like, well, I'm not understanding. Did you test him or anything, you know, under what basis did? They said, well, he couldn't spell the word addict. So we just assumed that he was just in this third class. And I said, oh, OK, well, are you going to have any? He couldn't spell one word, so we're going to just go put him down. I don't know. They haven't done rigorous testing. No, but guess what? Oh, okay.
• 37:54
  they had to take the state-mandated test. This is why I know it all comes out in the end. So they had to take this, what's the name of that test? It's a standardized test that they give to all the kids. Okay. And so in this test, he was like in the 99th percentile, you know, for nonverbal spatial reasoning, which scored higher than the people in the top class. And so,
• 38:17
  But at that point I had already decided I'm pulling him out. But they said, oh, we're going to hurry up and change his class and move his class. And at that point, they were very apologetic and saying, well, you know. What am I doing with your apology? Yeah, but it's OK. But Luke was quite happy. I think I really pulled, because he was fine. Less work? Oh, that's great.
• 38:39
  But his idea that they already looked at his color and placed him and didn't really do their due diligence to not realize the child was not working at his level. So that was the experience they were having. He wasn't working at his level and they were quite okay with it. They didn't recognize. And then she's a go-getter. She's like, this is too easy. They said, okay, so we're going to take you out the class then. Right. Right. So no one's going to continue to.
• 39:03
  send their kids to school because they obviously need a different environment. Sure. And so when you made the decision to homeschool them, what does that mean? Does that mean that you start like going online and figuring out how to structure your days? Yeah, because I'm not one of those, you know, let's sit down at a desk from 8 to 3. And I didn't have that kind of time. But at least you're already a teacher. Yeah.
• 39:25
  I was their music teacher. I couldn't be a teacher. So let alone... Everything is online now. All you have to do is be the manager. Okay. Your class, like, as I'm talking to you now, my son, the eight-year-old, is in class. Okay. At Beast Academy. There's some math specialists, you know. These are the kids that do math competitions. Right. Art of Problem Solving down to Beast Academy. Okay. And they start from a young age. So they identified Alex and so...
• 39:52
  He's in class with kids all over the world, about 16 of them, and they're doing math concepts online. So all I had to do is say, your class is at 11.30, click, there you are. And he's in a world there with his friends, and he's talking, because word up to me in math, he would be nowhere. Really? Yeah.
• 40:13
  That is not my thing. Amazing. So when you made this decision, you knew what your strengths and weaknesses were. Oh, yes. And you were just like, let me find the right resources. Exactly. Do you think the top thing people love to tell me when I tell them that I want to homeschool my kids is, oh, no, but the social aspect. And here's my argument, but I'd love to hear your position. I'm always like, first of all, my twins have been socializing inside my room long before you even understood socializing, right?
• 40:36
  So like, I'm not worried. I'm genuinely not worried. But also, I remember going to school. And yes, you had your lunch break. And yes, you had some time after school and with your extracurricular activities. But one, I understand that as a homeschooling parent, you can still have those extracurricular activities. So you still get that social aspect.
• 40:56
  And I don't remember spending that much time with my friends during the school day. So for me, it's not a concern. But I'm wondering, when you started homeschooling, was it a concern for you that your kids might lose out on some sort of social aspect when they're growing up? No. Okay. Because before I was a mom, I was a violin teacher. Okay. And I noted the distinction between the homeschool kids and the kids that went to school. Tell me what you saw. The homeschool kids...
• 41:26
  had been raised in an environment that was 100% positive, and their confidence level was off the charts. Okay? So when they walked in any environment, and I also noticed they weren't ageist. They could communicate with you whether you were their age or older, because that's the way they were socialized. You know, they go to the grocery store, hi, Mr. Grocer, what kind of meat do you have today? They go to the bank and say, well, you know,
• 41:52
  Hi, you know, I'm here with my mom. And that sense of, so they were very confident and highly socialized, actually. Where the kids in school, you know, you don't want to stick out too much because you become a target and you don't want the bully to bother you. So they were actually withdrawn. So I actually saw the opposite when I was teaching before I even had kids. That's amazing. So I didn't actually have that concern because I knew how it would turn out.
• 42:16
  That's amazing. I'm supposed to actually be talking to you about why you moved to Jamaica and I've gone all over. I've gone like all into teaching. No, that's fine. But so if you you've lived in how many places? Uh, what did my husband tell you? He said over 50 cities. There you go. There you go. That's mad. I know. And so your children have lived in a lot of places. That's right. First world, third world, your language, different languages. I wanted global children.
• 42:44
  That's incredible. So my question, I have so many questions. My question is, how long have you lived in Jamaica on this particular stint, let's call it? One year and a half. Only a year and a half. Oh, but of that year and a half, we took six months and went to Belgium. So a year.
• 43:01
  A year. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. So on this year, we're going to call it that you've been here. What was, where were you before? We just came back in January. I want to make that clear. Really? Yes. For June to December 2024. You were in Belgium. We were in Belgium. Okay. And I did put them in school there. Okay. To pick up French. Okay. You speak French too? A little bit. Okay. But for children, they speak perfectly.
• 43:30
  That's incredible. So you see, Así Así is coming out because my first foreign language is Espanol. Because I received a scholarship to teach, Fulbright, to teach in Honduras. So I have to go through Spanish to get to French. So I'll give you, it's so funny.
• 43:46
  I had a Spanish speaking KP kitchen porter washing the dishes for me. And I was like, okay, well, I have like high school level Spanish. I can manage. But by this point, I've already had children. And so I only speak French to my kids. And so I opened my mouth to speak Spanish to him. Again, basic instructions. I'm not exaggerating, but it was just French that came out of my mouth. Exactly. And that's what I experienced. And I couldn't, I couldn't.
• 44:12
  I couldn't fix it. It was already out. And I was like, I first realized in that moment that my French is much better than I thought it was. Because for my brain to go there without me trying to go there, I was like, oh, I can't be that bad at French. But also, I was just like, wow, it's so difficult for me to slowly think. Yeah. You know, when you're having a conversation, you want that fluidity of language. And I just was really struggling. And I'm not talking about anything that was...
• 44:37
  you know, deeply intellectual or like hard. So I completely understand. Yeah, so it goes through. Completely on the Spanish first. Yeah. So your kids, did you choose Belgium specifically for French?
• 44:49
  Yeah, it was a double reason because the music community is there. Okay. And it is a school. See, now I'm thinking Spanish while I'm talking English, right? It is a school for highly gifted children that also play three hours a day. And so we auditioned and they were like, oh, great. We'll take both of the kids. Oh, really? So we decided to try. What are your other kids doing when the other kids are at? So I took Alex and I put him in.
• 45:17
  French school because I've been trying to keep him at grade level. So it would be his third time trying second grade. And so I said, we're going to do it in a different language. OK, very cool. That's what I had to do to Jada to keep her from going to college at 12 as we did school all over again in French. Amazing. Right. So he he said, Mom, this is amazing. This is great. For the first time, I'm learning something. Right. And he saw one big challenge. He thrived. He was doing that. That is incredible. So you're in Belgium. Did you already know that you were going to stay there just for six months?
• 45:47
  No, we had intended it for it to be a full year. Okay. Yeah. And what changed? I think we realized that it started to get extremely expensive. Okay. With the expenses here in Jamaica. Okay. And because you're still maintaining life here. That's right. Because Courtney was here. Okay. My husband was here. So.
• 46:10
  He's there sending up the money, sometimes up to 10,000 US dollars per month. Sure. And it just, oh, sorry. Sorry, I'm so used to flicking it. It just started to add up. We started to add the benefits
• 46:26
  versus what we were getting. And I felt they got, at six months in a country, you've gotten the vibe of it. A good chunk. Yeah, I felt they got the vibe. Sure. Yeah, so I thought it was, so when we came home for Christmas, we decided let's. We're gonna stay. Yeah, let's stay. And so if you take me back to before you went to Belgium, where were you before coming to Jamaica? Because you would have been in Jamaica, gone to Belgium, and know you're back in Jamaica. Yeah, we were in New York. Okay. Yeah, my kids got all three of them. Now this is amazing, got accepted to the special music school.
• 46:56
  which is like, and they only take like 15 kindergartners a year. And then if there's any openings, a one or two. Sure. And they actually took all three of my kids into that special music school. So that's what we were doing before we moved to Jamaica. You just give birth and create these magical human beings. No, and see, that's where, and I hope you memorize this. That's what people get wrong. Okay, tell me. They believe that my kids fell out and they were gifted.
• 47:23
  No, I don't believe that. No, it is work. You sit with you for two minutes and you can feel that that is not the case. Yes. No, everything you're seeing, it's because they practice and we're consistent. No, if you had one child out of five that was like super gifted, then I would be like, okay, cool. Maybe that one child fell out and that's how they came to the earth. But you don't do it.
• 47:48
  so many times and get those results so many times. I mean, it's impossible. Right. So no, when I say that, I just mean that you have done everything that needed to be done to get that right. The magic is understanding each child
• 48:08
  and helping them with their natural gifts and talents. Right. That is the key. So you're not necessarily putting the same blueprint on each child. No, that's a mistake. Okay. That's a mistake. Okay. And so you're in New York with your kids. Yes. Courtney, your husband, he's there in New York. Okay. We're together. So we're all together in New York. Why do you come back to Jamaica? Well, in that October, because he was doing like three jobs online,
• 48:37
  his health started to go down, started to decline. And I felt, you know, I'm not sure this environment is working for you. So I said, let's do an experiment. Let's just try Jamaica for and see what happens.
• 48:54
  It was magic. As he stepped in Jamaica, he dropped 20 years. Yeah, well, you see him. He dropped 20 years. He just, you know, he ran into people in the grocery store, everybody's chief or general. You know, I guess you at least need something to do. He just, I mean, his life just took on a meaning. I mean, I guess being outside, fresh air, good food. I mean, this was his environment and he blossomed. And we just looked at each other a year later and said, well, I guess we have our answer.
• 49:24
  So you did you know, I know you said it was an experiment, but did you have a gut feeling that this was going to be a successful experiment? I'm going to say yes, but I wasn't sure what was going to happen when we hit our first challenge. Which was?
• 49:42
  not being able to get through at the bank or not being able to get any challenges. You know, the challenges of living. I wasn't sure if he was going to go running back to the States and say, oh my God, Jamaica doesn't operate too efficiently. Yeah. Okay. So in terms of like life and day to day, right? Because I appreciate there's something about coming here as a tourist, you know, you sit, you have a great experience, you eat all the food, you get all the sun and then you go back. Right. And then there's something about living where the day to day, whether it's like bureaucratic challenges.
• 50:12
  AC man over to fix your, and you have to call them for two weeks straight, and they're trying to find the problem. So you weren't sure if when those day-to-day niggly bits, let's call them, if that was going to say, actually, I want to go back to what I'm used to. Right. Because how long had you been living in New York at this point? Two years. Okay, so a good enough time that you could have said, oh, actually, I prefer, but it didn't.
• 50:37
  It didn't fit at all. Nope. Did you want it to? Did you want... It would have made it easier for me. I'm going to be honest. You know, the ISO symphony is right down the street. I don't have to work as hard. I just drop my kids off and they get standard literature. You know, the resources there. You know, so to have to kind of recreate all that is a little difficult. But of course, I'm happy that we got it right. Because everybody loves Daddy. And so...
• 51:05
  The fact that he's in an environment where he's going to live a nice, long, healthy life. I mean, and they're going to go off. They have their pathway. Sure. Right? You know, interlock.