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"I Genuinely Hate My Life" · Regretful Parents

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi, folks. Welcome back to our Regretful Parents series. I'm Erica,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: and I am joined today by a very special guest,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Logan Yancey. Welcome, Logan.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Hey, Erica. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Of course. I know we just chatted a little bit offline,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: but for the listeners, tell us where you're calling from.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Well, for starters, I am an American citizen, but I
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: am calling from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I'm a permanent resident here.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: And I like to tell people I got out just
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: in time.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: When did you move?
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Dear, how long ago was it? How many years ago?
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: I've been here three years now. Yeah, three years this
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: fall that I'll be a permanent resident of Canada.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: And what inspired the switch up?
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: The wife.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, she's from Canada? Yeah.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's born and raised locally. And when her and
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: I met, I was just in a more flexible place
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: in my life than she was. She owned a home.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Her business is based here and I lived in a van.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: So it made more sense for me to relocate. Nice.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: And did you always know that you didn't want kids?
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Was it something that you came to with time?
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Well, when I was a teenager, I would have told
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: you that I wanted to that I was going to
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: be a parent someday, not even necessarily that I wanted
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: to be, but I had this idea in my head
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: when I was younger that that was just something that
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: everybody did. It was part of the formula. You graduate
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: high school, you get a spouse, you get a house,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: maybe you go to college and you squirt out a
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: couple of kids. It was just what everybody did. And
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: I kind of assumed that that was going to be
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: my destiny too, but I dreaded it. I was not
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: looking forward to it. I had something of a, I'll
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: stop short of saying that I had a reputation as
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: somebody that joked about children. But my peers in high
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: school knew that I wasn't thrilled about the idea of
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: having to care for a baby someday. And then at
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: some point in my adult life, it just occurred to
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: me that I don't have to do that.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Interesting. I thought that this was going toward Where Kristen
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: and I came from, which is we came to the
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: realization that we didn't want kids, and then our partners,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: when we met them, thought they wanted kids, and it
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: was the wife that convinced them not to. Were you
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: and your wife on the same page when you met,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: or was it a conversation that you guys had together?
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: We actually met in a Facebook dating group for people
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: that don't want to have children, a child-free dating group.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: And that really smoothed things out for us because for
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: both her and I in dating as an adult, the
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: child-free discussion is something that you kind of have to
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: bring up quickly and can be a point of contention.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Her ex before me seemed like more of a fence-sitter.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: He seemed more like he was just sort of okay
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: with the idea of not being a dad. But for
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: her to come into a relationship with an avowed child-free
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: man active in child-free content on social media, an affirmed
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: vasectomy already completed. It was a breath of fresh air
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: for her. And she's also the first staunchly child-free woman
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: that I've dated as well. To take it back to
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: the previous question, the thing that sort of made me
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: realize as an adult that I don't have to do
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: this was dating a single mother for a number of years.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: And I'm not going to badmouth her or anything, but
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: there were contentions in our relationship that arose from her
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: child and, you know, me being in a sort of
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: stepfatherly role, but also not having any of the authority to,
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: you know, assert any sort of authority over this child.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: And I, you know, it just, it was a mess.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: It was a mess. And coming out of that, it
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: was shortly after that relationship ended with finality that I
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: went and got the snip.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Oh, that's so interesting. If you still are aware
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: of that Facebook dating group, could you send that to me?
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I would love to put that in the show notes.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. It's simply called CF Dating, but I'll
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: tag it for you.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Great.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Well, let's go ahead and get into it. I have
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: three regretful parents that I chose for this conversation because
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: we don't often have men on the podcast or on
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: our regretful parents series. I wanted to make sure that
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: we were getting a father's POV. And so I will
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: read these three headlines for you. and let you choose
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: which one you're interested in. Okay, so the first one
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: is titled, Becoming a Father Took Away an Escape I
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Didn't Realize I Depended On.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: The second one is titled, She Had Him Anyway, dot, dot, dot. Actually,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of dots, but we'll just go with the
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: standard ellipses.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: And the third one was, I never knew what I
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: was giving up.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, man.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Either of them or any of the three stand out?
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: The first two. The third one is really, really vague.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Could mean a lot. But the first two speak to me. Okay.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Let's go with the second story. She had them anyway.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Second story. Okay. All right, here we go.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: So this was posted at the time of recording 15
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: days ago, so kind of fresh. And they use the
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: venting but advice welcome tag. So this starts out by saying,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: let me preface this by saying as a male 27
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: year old with a female now 28. Before the relationship
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: even began, I would converse with my soon-to-be ex about
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: how I never wanted to have children whatsoever. I said
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: I would never bring a life into society that is
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: in the shape that it is currently. Not saying things
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: can't get better, but right now genuinely is not the
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: time to do it. That and the fact that I
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: said multiple times that I never wanted them. In the beginning,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: she understood where I was coming from before our relationship
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: was even established. She even told me she has tried
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: before with previous relationships, but said that she could not
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: get pregnant at all, which with my naive brain, I believed.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: But as time went on, we hit bumps in the
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: road during our actual relationship. It looks like you might
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: be jotting something down.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't want to interrupt you, but I feel
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: for this guy. But if he was certain that he
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: didn't want to have kids, he shouldn't have left it
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: up to her in the first place. Even though she said,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: I don't think I can have kids. He shouldn't have
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: relied on that. He should have went and got the
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: snip himself. I mean, I know there are a lot
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: of men that are anxious about the idea, whether or
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: not they have had children. But it's a really simple procedure.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: It has very low chance of complications. It's worth it.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: It's worth it. And any man who claims to be
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: child-free but is also hesitant to get a vasectomy, I
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: would raise my eyebrow at that. What do you mean
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: by that? Well, he can't. He could be saying one
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: thing and meaning another, or he has hangups about the
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: sensitive nature. I guess I sort of understand that, the
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: hangup of the sensitive nature, medically speaking, because you're having
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: a doctor take a sharp implement to a very sensitive area.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: But if they're a urologist and they have been doing
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: this for any length, they know what they're doing. It
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: is a very, very, it's simpler than getting your wisdom
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: teeth extracted. I feel like I could perform a vasectomy
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: with a 30-minute YouTube tutorial. I really think that if
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: you're a man and you don't want to have kids,
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: just get the snip. But I'm sorry I interrupted.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: No, no, no. This show is all about interruptions. Please
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: don't feel any hesitancy to stop me. I know you
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: had said that in your last relationship with the single mom,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: you didn't have the snip yet, right?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: What was giving you pause then?
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Well, she had said that she couldn't get pregnant again anyway. And,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: you know, this is a little bit of learning by age,
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: learning by experience. With age comes a certain amount of wisdom.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: And I had, you know, believed her. She had health complications.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: She had uterine issues. So when she told me, it's
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: very unlikely that I'll ever get pregnant again, I believed that.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: And not all of our sex was responsible. I will
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: admit that as well. And it was really when we
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: had a bit of a scare that I realized I
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: cannot do this. I can't be a dad. I can't
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: be a father to this woman's child because especially nowadays,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: I think it was less so in our grandparents' generation,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: but especially nowadays, People will shack up with somebody that
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: they have a couple of good years with. They feel
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: pretty confident about like, yeah, this person can be my
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: partner for raising a child together. But what some people
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: don't really respect is that when you're having a child
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: with somebody, you are locking yourself into something. union of
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: sorts with that partner, regardless of whether or not you're
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: still romantically attached to each other, because you have a
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: child together. And through that child, you will always have
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: to deal with this person. Even if your relationship sours,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: you are eternally bound to this other person. And what
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: if after a couple of years they break up? turn
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: out to suck or they change or the relationship changes.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: The kid changes your relationship. Like there are many factors
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: that I think too many people, people that probably end
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: up in the regretful parents subreddit that they just don't
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: consider before they jump into the idea of having kids. Yeah, totally. Totally.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Okay. So to carry on with the regretful parents story,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: turns out she lived with her ex for the first
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: three months of us dating. and didn't tell me about
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: it until I moved out of that apartment to another place.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: Would that be a red flag for you?
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: A little bit, especially if she didn't tell you. Yeah. Yeah.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: That's a problem.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: He says, I already did my best to forgive, but
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I never forgot. Beside with my mental health, I paid
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: quite a bit, including her down payment for her own
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: place because she didn't want to live where she was already.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: her insurance, phone bill, and other fees. So it sounds
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: like he was paying for quite a bit of her
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: living expenses. As time went on, she was always giving
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: me 20% while I was dumping 100%. When she told
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: me she was hungry, we went out to eat. If
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: I told her I was hungry, I got a stale
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: bag of chips that I prepared for her lunches when
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: she went to work. I would drive her to Atlantic
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: City after a 10-hour shift at work for fashion shows,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: which is an hour and 50-minute ride, parentheses, we live
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: in Jersey, nearly every Friday for three months, up until
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: she quit at the last minute. This was the start
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: of me wanting to break up, and that was the
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: fashion show she had been training for the entire time, which...
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Do people train for fashion shows? I've never heard of
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: this before.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't call it a fashion show, but the way
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I understood that is she was preparing for an eventual
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: breakup attempt from him, and she was preparing for a
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: way to, like, talk him out of it. I think
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: that's how I understood that. Oh.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: So you think she was getting ready to break up
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: with him?
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: No, no, no. I think she understood that he would
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: inevitably try to break up with her. That's how I
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: understood that. And she was preparing for that eventuality. That's
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: how I understood the fashion show analogy, but I could
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: be incorrect.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I'm going to keep that in the back of my mind.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: He says, this was the start of me wanting to
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: break up. And that was the fashion show she had
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: been training for the entire time, which essentially made me
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: waste those last three months. I'd keep her fridge and
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: cabinet stock. I gave her a mattress to sleep on,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: let her use my laptop as a TV and my
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: other phone as a router so she'd have something to
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: watch when I'm not there. I feel like this guy
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: is giving too much in general.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Like, if you're already uncomfortable with it, why are you
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: not expressing that?
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: And if this is leading towards her getting pregnant, You know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: in Reddit stories like this, I try to grant a
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: little grace to the subject of the Reddit story that
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: isn't speaking, you know, not OP, because we only can
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: hear one side of the story. And of course, there
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: is numerous examples of a disgruntled man who wants to
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: slander his his partner on the internet. And we only
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: hear his side of the story. And, you know, the
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: comments are like, oh my gosh, she's terrible. But again,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: only one side of the story, but it kind of
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: sounds like he's given her everything. It kind of sounds
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: like he's paying for everything. And if we are to
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: take his story at face value, one could interpret this
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: story as her feeling like she's got a gravy train
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: with this guy. If she can lock him down by
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: getting pregnant, even though she knows he doesn't want kids,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: then maybe she can secure her internet, her bills being paid,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: stuff like that.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I always hate the baby trapping stereotype, but I do
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: think it's true sometimes. And this feels like it could
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: potentially be one of those stories. So he continues on
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: to say, I want to be clear. I did quite
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: a bit for someone I had feelings for because that's
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: how I've always been. But she was a frequent source
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: of stress because no matter what I tried to do,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: nothing was good enough. I was her main source of
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: transportation when she couldn't get to work because she wrecked
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: her car. The car that was in her ex's... Oh
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: my gosh, this ex is too involved in her story.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: That should have been a red flag from the get-go.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: And even when I couldn't get there, I would pay
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: for her Ubers to and from. I would take us
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: out to events. I would really do the best I could,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: but it was never anything more than a one-sided relationship
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: and I was done.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Damn, what did this guy do for a job?
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: No, seriously. I also just think like, yeah, maybe, bro,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: this is like a story about how you need to
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: have more of a boundary.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, healthier boundaries for yourself. And like, how serious is
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: this relationship with her? If she's this involved with her ex, then...
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe you got to tap the brakes
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: a little bit. Maybe you only see her once a
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: week instead of every couple of days. You know, try
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: to get a healthier vibe for the kind of, you know,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: social commentary surrounding this can be a little problematic. But
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: what is she bringing to the table? It kind of
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: sounds like you're bringing everything. Yeah. Does she actually want
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: to be in a relationship with you? Does she actually
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: love you? Is she romantically interested in you? Or is
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: she just, you know, comfortable with you and you're who
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: is next in line. I don't know.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, totally. He says, Which only after the breakup
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: was I told is wild, wild work. First, I didn't
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: even believe the child was mine because at this point
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: she was still friends with this ex and would keep
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: her dog over there since the apartment she moved into
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: didn't allow pets. and because I'm way too trusting. I
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: would be okay with her visiting her dogs, no matter
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: how uncomfortable I was. Parentheses, it is completely okay to
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: call me stupid, by the way. I know most people
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: would have left, but I really tried to give everyone
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt. I hope he's learned his lesson.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Jeez.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Poor guy.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: I know. He says, since we had already broken up,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: the tension was already high. But I told her that
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: we should have a conversation about what's happening. And I
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: essentially told her in person that this is not the
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: time to have a child because of the insurmountable circumstances
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: we are in right now. We weren't together. She at
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: that point was unemployed, which I had just found out
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: during that convo, had no vehicle during the entire course
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: of our relationship, would have depressive episodes and suicidal ideation.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Not to mention, at that point, she had no help
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: to raise another child other than her mother that lives
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: 730 miles away and who is elderly. I really tried
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: to drive home that having a child takes way more
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: than love and that doing so without a foundation is selfish,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: not only to the child, but to herself. Of course,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: she got emotional and told me to leave, which I did.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: That is something that I feel men especially don't have
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: enough respect for in the making a child conversation. I
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: want to applaud OP. If I'm reading this right, he's
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: acknowledging the toll, the effect that pregnancy has on relationships,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: on the entire dynamic that you have. For women, women flatly,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: we all should be able to acknowledge, women give up more.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: When a baby is brought into the picture, it's their
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: body that becomes the incubator for this fetus for nine months.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: And then even after the baby is born, there's just societally, culturally,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: there's more responsibility placed on the mother. They lose more.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: They have to give up more. They have to sacrifice
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: more than the man. And here he is saying, we
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: need to consider a lot of things before bringing a
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: baby into this picture. And she's just like, you're not
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: being supportive. Get out. Like when you're when you if
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: you're having a child, you need to be cognizant of
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: what you're bringing that child into. Like if you're both
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: dirt poor, not saying that these two are, but like
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: if she's not working, you know, if you're bringing a
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: child into poverty, there can be special kinds of trauma
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: associated with, you know, a child being raised in an
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: environment of perpetual want. You always want what you don't have.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: If you're both in poor mental states, that's, you know,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: generational trauma you're imposing upon that child. Like too many
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: people just have kids without thinking about it. They just
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: like I was like I was saying before, they just
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: follow the script and then bam, they've got a child
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: and people are telling them you'll figure it out. And
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: then you've got a 13 year old that's in therapy
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: because you weren't adequately prepared for what parenthood actually entails.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: And I'm so curious, like, I don't think he said anything,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: correct me if you heard anything, but I don't think
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: he said anything about, um, like what kind of birth
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: control they were using, if any. And I know they
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: were in their late 20s, but I'm just like.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, to your point. He just said that she
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: told him that she would have difficulty getting pregnant. I
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: think that was a no at the beginning of it.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: And if you rely on that, I mean, again, speaking
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: from experience here, maybe don't rely on just that because
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: the body is unpredictable. Maybe have some other, you know,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: chemical or physical birth control methods in place, you know,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: just to just play it safe. 100%.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: It's like, oops, there's a baby. Anything can happen.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: It's a surprise. How did that baby get here?
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Don't trust your freaking body. Nothing is for certain. And
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: even birth control, I mean, to your point, birth control
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: can be inconsistent also. So... Just play it safe and
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: get a vasectomy if you're really committed to this.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: He says, we get into another altercation slightly over text
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: where I basically stick to my guns and upset her
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: because of me feeling this way. We don't talk for
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: a few weeks. And then she calls me up because
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: she said something important to me. So, of course, I
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: drive the 45 minutes it takes to see her and
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: ask what's up. And she shows me pictures of the ultrasound.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: to which I am devastated and say, I genuinely can't
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: believe you're doing this, causing her to storm off after
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: snatching the pictures and shutting the door in my face.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: That was a little emotionally blackmail-y on her part because
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: she could have just as easily sent him photos. She
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: could have sent him photos of the ultrasound via text,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: but she wanted him there physically. So she leaves a
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: mystery hanging in the air. I need you to come
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: here and talk to me. I need to talk to
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: you about something. So he drives all the way there
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: and then look at these pretty photos. Look, this is
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: our baby. Like, and she wanted him to see her,
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: see her excitement, see the photos in person. She, you know,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: there's a little bit of a disconnect if she were
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: to just do that in text, but, um, just reading,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: if I'm really reading into this, she wanted to emotionally
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: blackmail him a little.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I 100% agree. And I'm so curious. I mean,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: to your point, you know, like we can't know her
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: side of the story, but I'm so curious what she
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: was thinking in doing this. Like for somebody who has
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: been so outspoken about thinking it's a bad idea, to
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: think that ultrasound photos are going to change his mind
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: is wild.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Well, you see it in the child-free conversation all the time, too,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: about people thinking that, getting into a relationship with somebody
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: that you genuinely connect with, but one of you wants
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: kids and the other one doesn't. And you're both kind
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: of hoping maybe you can change the other's mind. And
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: as we all know from experiences and stories like this,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: it just doesn't usually work out that way. If one
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: person wants kids and one person doesn't, there isn't really
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: a compromise there. One of you is going to live
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: with regret.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Totally.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: And that's why it's such a risk to trust somebody
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: when they say that they can't have kids because it's like,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: especially for men, it's like if a woman doesn't want
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: to have a kid, she can go ahead and have
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: an abortion. If the man doesn't want to have a kid,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: essentially you're a little trapped. So men do need to
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: be a little bit more careful. And I do fear
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: for this man. Okay. He says, we don't talk for
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: a few months and due to her being someone I
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: still stupidly care about, then I reach out once more
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: months later. The conversation goes slightly well, and she lets
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: me know she's having a boy. Part of me wishes
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I never got back into contact, but if my gut
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: feeling is correct and the child is mine, oh, that's interesting,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: then I have a duty to be responsible for what
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: belongs to me no matter how badly I don't want it.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: How do you feel about that? I have a lot
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: of respect for good dads who... Maybe didn't want to
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: be a dad right away or weren't thrilled about it
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: or they weren't ready. But then once that baby arrives,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: they are actually present. They are not spending every weeknight
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: after work playing video games locked behind a door, you know, leaving,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: relegating all of the duties of child care to the mother.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: An active paternal participant. I do have a lot of
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: respect for that. And I think that's probably because societally,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: in the social media conversation, we don't see enough of that.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: It's been prevalent in generations past, and it's still prevalent
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: with millennial parents now, that there are just some fathers
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: who think they want to be a dad the way
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: kids want to have a puppy. They visualize and fantasize
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: and romanticize about all of the cool thoughts about you know,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: playing ball with your kid and showing them sports and
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: giving them a father-son talking to or whatever without understanding
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: that there's also the tantrums and the food and the
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: shitty diapers and something that is consuming all of your
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: choices now. And, you know, mad respect for the fathers
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: that step up, especially when we have plenty of examples
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: of fathers that don't. Yeah. He carries on and says,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: turns out she moved back to the south in her
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: mom's apartment, which is not very big and is not
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: the most reputable area. She's been going through it ever since,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: and this causes me to get a second job in
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: order to be able to send money so she could
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: at least get something to eat and have things prepared
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: for when the baby arrives.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Girl, provide for yourself.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: She does need to be doing more. It's it's rare
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: that I take the man side in stories like this.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: But as a woman nowadays, again, sorry to interrupt you.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: But as a woman nowadays, there's should be like a
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: lot of social pressure on hetero women, hetero women, especially
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: to like if you're getting into a relationship with a
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: new man. Be a little independent first, like have a
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: little bit of yourself, your financial situation, living situation, whatever
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: established before you lock yourself into some kind of relationship
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: with a man. Because if he has, you know, full
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: control over your finances or your living situation or whatever,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: you're just setting yourself up for. I think we all know.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Bad times.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Exactly. I know. I do think that's one of the
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: things that I give a lot of props to my
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: mom about is like from a very young age. And
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: my parents have been married for 40-something years. But from
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: a very young age, she was like, make sure you
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: have your own money. You have your own stuff going
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: for you. And I do think that this should have
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: been red flag after red flag for this guy. The
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: fact that like everything was in her ex's name. Now
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: she's living with her mom. Like... She really does need
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: to learn to stand on her own two feet. Good
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: for him for being the better person and being like, okay,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: I'm going to get a second job so that I
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: can send money. Because I think a lot of men
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: would not have.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: The.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: The care, the wherewithal to think that.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: The character. Yeah.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: The wherewithal to do that. I think a lot of
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: people would be like, well, you know, she can take
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: me to court or she can do this and that.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: But The fact that he's stepping up when she's not
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: even is really commendable. He says she also was. Oh, OK.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Maybe we're going to backtrack now. He says she also
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: was working two jobs to support herself.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: OK.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Which I commend and took as a sign that she
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: had matured a little bit. So, OK. We're seeing some progress.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Things are happening. I believe where my mistake was made
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: was trying to reestablish. Oh, no. Reestablish our relationship. So
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: when we do have this child. He will at least
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: live in a two parent home and not have to
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: be traded in a parking lot like I did for
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: a large majority of my life.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: OK, without having been a child raised in that kind
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: of environment, my parents were together. They still are. have
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: been together my whole life. But I feel like the
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: child would be better off being brought up in a
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: co-parent situation that's cordial and polite and, you know, well-oiled
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: versus a two-parent household where both parents live together and
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: are still technically together, but they're miserable and they don't
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: work and it's causing all kinds of trauma on the
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: kids and on the parents themselves. There are enough resources
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: for people that have to do it this way. Kids
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: are resilient. Once it becomes routine, as long as there's
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: no trauma and yelling and animosity between both parties, then
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: it's going to be fine. The kid will be okay.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I do think he made a mistake by trying
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: to reestablish the relationship. I don't think that's a good idea.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I agree. And to what he said earlier, he was
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: stepping up to support, said money. You can be present
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: in other ways. I don't know if trying to reestablish
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the relationship is a good idea.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I think his heart was in the right place, but
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: it's misguided. Agree.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. This is a very long post, but we're
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: getting closer. He says, Oh. I even drop everything and
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: take a flight the same day when she lets me
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: know she's going to be induced. I stay with her
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: at the hospital, including the NICU, where my son went
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: after being born for roughly 14 days. I would assume
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: that this would show that I'm at least serious about
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: the situation but it has been continuous peaks and valleys
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: which I understand is hormonal due to pregnancy and birthing
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: but it didn't make it any easier. The very last
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: trip is when I ship most of her stuff through
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the mail and and load the rest of it in
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: my luggage to bring on the train, which is a
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: nine-hour ride, 18 hours both way, and ever since I
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: moved her and my son in with me, it has
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: been nothing but turmoil. I can't believe he did this.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. I feel for this guy, but I'm
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: really glad that this isn't my life.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: I agree, and honestly... I hope this guy's in therapy
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: because it seems like he's inflicting pain on himself. Yeah.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: There was no reason to do this.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah. To the point I made before, this is where
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: you lose yourself to parenthood. We talk a lot about
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: identity issues. And, you know, there's the conversation of what
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: are you even going to do with yourself if you
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: don't have kids? I see this more in motherhood than
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: I do in fatherhood. But the losing your identity or
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: losing the aspects of your yourself that you really identify
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: with prior to having kids and then you have that
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: child and then you're just a mom or you're just
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: a dad and all of your interests, all of what
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: made you who you are, start getting put on the shelf.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: And it sounds like he's really sacrificing everything that he
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: is to be a present father, which, again, props, but
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: couldn't be me.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, could not be me. Wow. Okay, final paragraph. He says,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: we argue every day. I hate this. He says, I
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: work 10 to 12 hours in the sun and still
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: try to take the rains when I get home after showering.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: I will cook or I'll pick up for food. I'll
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: change him. I'll feed him and I'll put him down
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: for sleep time. But she feels that because she's at
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: home with him all day, she's doing 90% of the work,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: which is fair. I'm not going to say that being
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: a mom is easy, but it does sound like he's
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: at least... trying to do his fair share when he can.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I don't take away the fact that she's at home
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: doing the work of a mother, but this is genuinely
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: a choice that she made herself in the circumstances. I
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: already provide everything, pay both our shares of the bills,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: cook for her, clean the room and bathroom every weekend
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: because she has yet to do it since she moved
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: in four months ago, take us places on the weekend,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: and even though I'm running on 20 hours of sleep
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: for the last five days... and even wake up two
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: hours before my alarm goes off when the boy starts
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: crying to attend to whatever he needs, this is all
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: one sentence, and I genuinely hate my life and have
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: never been more depressed, more broke, and more isolated in
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: my entire life, and I genuinely Still no period. And
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: I genuinely don't want to do this anymore. And I'm
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: never thinking of exits. Some cowardly, others permanently. Dot, dot, dot.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Having a child you never wanted has to be one
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: of the worst feelings in the world. And if I
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: had the gumption and lack of care for what my
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: family would feel, I would go out into the woods
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: with my sidearm and never... Oh, my God. Okay.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's talking about laughing himself.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Yep. That is very heavy.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: But again, I just have to point out, I commend
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: this man for trying to step up, but literally, there
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: is no reason that this has to be the case.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: You can just say... Our relationship does not work. We
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: don't need to be arguing every day. I will pay
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: child support, but we don't need to be living in
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: the same house. He is doing more than I think
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: he's contractually obligated to do. Maybe that's wrong of me
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: to say.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: 10-hour days out in the sun. I've done blue-collar stuff
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: before that really grinds on you. And not just your
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: body physically, but it grinds on your mind too. And
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: the last thing you want to do after a 10-hour
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: workday is to come home and be saddled with additional responsibilities.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: But he's stepping up. He's trying to take care of it.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: If the mother can say, I don't want to have
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: a baby, I'm going to get an abortion, then the
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: father should be able to make some declaration about that, too.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: I actually was thinking that earlier. I wonder if there
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: must be some kind of way that you can contractually
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: remove yourself. But I do think, yeah, it probably has
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: to take place.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I feel like it would need to be something mutually
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: agreed upon because if the spouse or if the woman...
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: really wants to, she can come after the guy for
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: child support. Of course, there's no guarantee that that even
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: works out. But she has legal precedent. If he says,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be involved, she can come after
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: him legally.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you would need to have
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: some kind of like contractual discussion beforehand, ideally before anyone
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: even gets pregnant, especially given that abortion is so hard
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: to come by in so many states now. But, yeah,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: I don't disagree. I think if a woman wants to
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: have a child and a man does not, there needs
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: to be some kind of legal, you know, proceeding that
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: gives the man out. Because I agree. I don't think
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: it's fair for somebody to be trapped in a situation
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: that they don't want.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Free and legal and accessible everywhere across Canada. Yeah.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Don't rub it in, Logan. Some of us are doing
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: our best.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: If I had gotten my vasectomy up here, I would
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: have been completely free, too.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I did have to pay for my vasectomy, but it
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: was the best $ 1, 000 I ever spent. My gosh.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Even the fact that it was $ 1, 000 is just, like,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: so cheap compared to having a child. I want to
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: keep talking about that, but let's get through this. Okay.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: All right. She threatened a few times that she's going
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: to move back with her. She threatened a few times
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: that she's going to move back with her mother. Go ahead, honey.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Who's stopping you?
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, bye. That's not a threat. He said, I'm willing
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: to let her go at this point, but I want
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: to make sure that my son will be all right
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: and won't pick up any bad habits or emotional scars.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think we're past that.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm making assumptions about OP and taking his
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: story at face value. He is a very good person
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: and he wants to take care of people. He wants
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: to take care of the people that he cares about.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: And he feels responsible for this child, even though I
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: don't believe we've established yet that he is 100% sure
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: this child is his. If she's quite involved with the ex,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: how involved is she with the ex? Does he know
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: with certainty that this is his child? Does it look
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: like him? Did they do a DNA test? I don't
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: think so. I think he just had her tell him,
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: this is your baby. And he was like, okay, I
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: guess it's my baby. I'll take care of it now
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: because you know I'm a good person. So you know
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: I'll take care of you and our child.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: I forgot that the ex was in this story.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: You're right.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: You got to get Jerry Springer in here. Let's get
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Maury out here. Find out if it's the father.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: All right. He says, I know I'm rambling, but I
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: don't have any places or people I can spew this
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: to who would genuinely understand what it's like to feel
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: like a soul squeezed dry. I hate the position I'm
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: in and it's starting to rub off on me and
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: I'm beginning to hate her. He's only beginning to hate her.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I'm dissociating. And even when my son cries, I'm starting
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: to feel less and less because instead of it being
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: a sign of need or distress, it's a sign that
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: I failed him because he should not exist in a
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: world like this where I'm not established.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: And that's it. That was heavy.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: How do you feel?
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I see enough of these regretful parents stories that I
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: feel like I'm seeing common threads sometimes with some of
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: the stories in that when you see the posts that
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: are run on sentences or just like an entire paragraph
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: with no punctuation, no commas or anything, it can be
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: commentary about their writing ability, their writing habits. But if
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: I were to read into that, it's just a It's
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: just cries for help. It's just misery and grief and
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: regret distilled. There's no funnel putting these thoughts into a
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: coherent pattern for us. These people are just filled with
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: torment and they just spew it into an anonymous venting forum,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: a regretful parents subreddit or Facebook group. And I feel
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: so terribly for these people and these kids because These young...
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: children raised by these regretful parents don't know if you
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: shouldn't know anyway, that this parent is struggling so much
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: with your existence. If you're one of these children. And
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: eventually they're going to figure it out. Like eventually they're
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: going to see signs that their parent doesn't enjoy being
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: a parent. Maybe they can tell that their parent really
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: loves them and loves being their dad or their mom. But,
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: you know, with some age and some experiences and some
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: conversations and some context, this child will eventually pick up
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: on the fact that my dad is miserable. My dad
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: doesn't enjoy being a father. And that, Regardless of whether
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: or not that's your fault as a child, you're going
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: to feel like it's your fault.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I've said this before on the show, but I do
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: always think, you know, it's tricky. You have to play
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: it very safe when the child is young. But I
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: am in favor of parents eventually being honest with their
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: kids because I think that we live in a society where, like,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: everybody feels like they have to talk about parenthood like
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: it's the best thing that ever happened to them. And
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: then it creates a cycle where everybody thinks that they
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: need to become a parent. And you don't break that
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: cycle until people start, you know, being honest. But it's
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: a sensitive conversation that needs to wait until the child
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: is like of age to be able to handle that
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: kind of thing and hopefully have access to therapy. But Dan,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: it's most extreme for this guy. In its most extreme example,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: parenthood is a misery cult. Of course, there are parents
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: out here. There are moms and dads that are crushing it, that,
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: you know, love what they do and they love being
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: a parent. And I love that for them. More power
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: to them. I'm sure it's a very fulfilling journey when
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: you enjoy the whole process and you have all of
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: the means to provide for your child. But for the
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: parents that don't, for the parents that are scraping by,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: for the parents that maybe weren't too super thrilled about
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: the idea of being a parent, if you're a parent,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: you're encouraging your adult child to be a parent someday
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: so that you can relate to them, so that they
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: can relate to you, so that you have something to
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: talk about.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't need to tell you this. It
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: changes your life. changes everything about your life. It consumes
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: all of your choices.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: So before I say goodbye, I would love to hear
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: what inspired you to start sharing your story on social media, especially,
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: I will say, because we've heard from so many people, like,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: where are the child-free men? Like, why are men not
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: talking about this more? So curious, what sparked that interest
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: for you?
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Well, I do think there is this societal recognition or
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: expectation of parenthood not being foisted upon the man as
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: strongly as it is the woman. And I think we
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: all can kind of agree to that. And I knew
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: that if I were to ever be a father, I
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: probably wouldn't enjoy the process. Like I would want to
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: shut myself in a room and play video games for
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: four hours. Are you kidding me? I don't want to
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: change diapers. Um, I have somehow made it. I'm 34
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: years old. I've somehow made it 34 years without ever
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: having had to change a diaper. And I'd like to
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: keep that going. Um, So when it came to the
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: thank you, when it came to the social media aspect
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: of it, I just scrolling would notice that I don't
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: really see a lot of male voices expressing the thoughts
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: that I have. I see lots of child free content
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: from women that I agree with the cultural and like
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: just pressure surrounding parenthood is more foisted upon women than
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: it is men. So I know that women need to
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: assert themselves a little bit more if they don't want
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: to have children. They need to staunchly assert that firmly.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: I think there are probably a good number of men
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: that are true fence sitters that could either take it
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: or leave it. But these guys aren't speaking up. And
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: even the guys that are just maybe even kind of
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: leaning towards not wanting to have kids, they don't really
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: feel the need to talk about it. And I noticed
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: there was a vacuum of male voices in this space.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: And I've got some things to talk about. So I
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: decided to make a TikTok.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And how long have you been creating content?
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Well, creating content broadly, I have a YouTube channel too,
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: but that's a gaming YouTube channel. As far as my TikTok,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: I've only been doing it for maybe six months now.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Not even.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: What's the reaction been like?
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Well, a lot of the same kind of comments that
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: you would see in a child-free woman's post, you'll see
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: in mine too. People saying, you're going to regret it.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: All the bingos. I feel good about the positive outpour.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Lots of women in my comments saying that we love
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: hearing this from men. I wish more men felt this way.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Things like that. That's very affirming. It is a really
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: interesting experience to put yourself out there on social media to,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: as a talking head, express your feelings for a couple
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: minutes and then having thousands of people say, I agree
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: with this. I feel this. That is a very affirming sensation.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: And I mean, it's not going to my head or anything,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: but I do. I like it because up to this
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: point in my life, that's not something I've really been
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: super open about. Largely in part due to my family dynamics,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: like where I come from. I never really wanted to
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: be out as a child free man. I kind of
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: felt like I was in the closet for a couple
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: of years. But yeah, Speaking about it openly, I feel good.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Although there is a, if I can get personal for
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: a moment, I do have the sense that if my
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: mom were to ever find my TikTok and watch some
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: of my videos, it might bring tears to her eyes
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: because she, you know. Really? Wanted to be a grandma.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: She doesn't know?
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: Well, she knows that I'm child-free, but she doesn't know
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: that I have a social media dedicated to being child-free.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, Logan, for being here with us.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Where can people find you if they're interested in following
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: your journey?
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Well, for my child-free content, my biggest page is my TikTok.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: You can find me at thatchildfreeguy, all one word. I
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: also have the same handle on Instagram, but my Instagram
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: following isn't nearly as big. I also have a gaming
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: YouTube page, not really related to my child-free discussions. Although
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: my wife and I do read some Reddit stories on
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: my YouTube as well that have a child-free slant to them.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: But most of my content is gaming related.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Super fun to meet you and chat with you. I'm
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: so jealous that you're in Canada. Please be sure to
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: just appreciate it every day. Don't take it for granted.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Light a candle for us down here. We're in trouble.