Latest / Birth at Work / S2 EP19 | Clara Kuo: Finding Presence in the Seasons

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S2 EP19 | Clara Kuo: Finding Presence in the Seasons · Birth at Work

• Krislyn Powell: Hi, Clara. So happy to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for joining us. Clara: It's great to be here, Krislyn Krislyn Powell: Yeah, I would love it if you could just take a few moments and introduce yourself, share a few things personally and professionally, and let us know why you joined the Birth at Work podcast today. Clara: Yeah, so I have two daughters who are wonderful. They are 10 and 14. It's actually surprising or crazy for me to think about my oldest as 14. She's officially a teenager. had a 15 or so year career thus far in tech. I live in Silicon Valley and this used to be known as the Valley of the Hearts Delight. but now it's Silicon Valley. And yeah, I worked in tech and user experience for a long time. And then during the COVID pandemic, I was working as a user experience researcher at two different startups. So that was a pretty heavy experience, very intense experience building research practices and consulting. for product development teams there. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, you have an amazing career story and also motherhood story in it. I'm really grateful that you took time to join us today and thanks for introducing yourself as well. I know you actually came from a humanities and English lit background, right? And then you went to business school and then spent about 10 to 15 years in tech as a UX researcher like you mentioned. Where were you professionally when you had your first daughter and then... What shifted your mindset when you realized, okay, I'm figuring out how to balance home and career and essentially matresence What was that identity shift like for you? Clara: Yeah, I think work and career has always been a really challenging thing for me being in Silicon Valley because like you mentioned, I majored in English literature. Originally, I thought about different careers, like maybe I could be a journalist, maybe I could be a teacher. But here where I live, it just supported so many other opportunities and it was a real path. My first job was working at a marketing research firm and I sort of fell into that. So the story is that I had reached out to the owner of the agency at Socratic Technologies and I said, I really want to learn SPSS. Like, please, you know, if there's anything I could do to just learn that And my first job was just a very basic types of things like checking data and stuff like that. And I didn't know that it was something I was good at, you know, but it was something that really worked for me. A lot of people say that I'm highly analytical. And so that really showed up, I guess, when I decided to go and become a user experience researcher. It sort of happened actually when I had my first daughter. you know, I was working at this marketing research firm. And then somewhere in between, I thought well, okay, my husband's got a good job now. We wanted to settle down and then, you know, she just kind of came along. And so it was very exciting, but also very nerve wracking because I had just started my career and I didn't know, you know, what's going to happen afterwards. But Because the Bay Area is such a big place and you can commute for really long distance. So it's commuting from South Bay Area to San Francisco. And so that's like really long commute. like 45 minutes, 60 minutes, depending on traffic. Or you can take the Cal train, the Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: commuter train, and that's a lot longer. And so, you know, I got through the initial sort of maternity leave period with my daughter and I just, I... I looked at her and I said, okay, this is not going to work. Like I cannot work and have her because she wasn't sleeping through the night. I finally just said to my manager, said, hey, you know what? I think I can't go back. And he was really concerned. He said, are you going to be okay financially? I said, I think we're going to be fine. We're going to have to work it out. But she was my first priority. And you know, I felt so much responsibility towards her. I don't know if I had any sort of postpartum depression at the time, but I couldn't even put her down. That was what my first experience with my daughter was like. I couldn't put her down at all. She was just with me, you know? It's like when you're pregnant, right? And you Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Clara: carry that baby for a while and then you give birth to this lovely child, but then I just couldn't put her down because she was like a part of me. It felt like it was hard to separate. So that was a big challenge was just getting through the sleep and trying to figure out when to sleep. It was a big deal for us. And so I think I probably just struggled with that for the first six months is just trying to figure out when to sleep or if she was going to take a nap, all of those things, just trying to figure it all out. So yeah. Krislyn Powell: my gosh, and I feel that so strongly. I'm at seven months postpartum with my second, but just relearning, living, noticing all of those things, especially the, you can't put them down. After you have the baby, Clara: you Krislyn Powell: it's like, there's still a part of you, they're just on the outside now, right? So, and I read that the baby, I think it's for that first three months of life, still they are not comprehending that they're separate from you until about three Clara: Yes. Krislyn Powell: months. So, I mean, that checks out, right? But you don't want to be putting them down. Yeah. Yeah. Clara: Yeah, I don't want to put her down either. Yeah. Krislyn Powell: was it, you know, the second time around as big of an identity shift or as, you know, I guess confusing? since you have two, right? Like I'm Clara: Yes. Krislyn Powell: curious how that differed for you. Clara: it was so, so different because I think also the babies are so different, right? So with my first child, I learned along the way, because I did end up hiring a sleep doula who was wonderful and she made no promises. There's a lot of sleep doulas out there that will tell you, I promise your child will sleep through the night, that type of thing. My husband likes to joke about this a lot because he said we bought all these books. One book tells you to cry it out and the other book tells you like gentle sleep and stuff like that. But none of Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: them really work. And then we hired this sleep doula and she basically said, you know, sleep is a combination of your personality, baby's personality, dad's personality. It's a combination of those three things. And my gosh, that changed so much. for me, like how I thought about it, because, you know, Krislyn Powell: yeah. Clara: it went from the whole idea of like, you need to sleep. All these people are telling me you need to sleep. The internet tells you, tells me that you need to sleep, that type of thing too. wow, like this is my child. She's right in front of me and you know, she needs all these things. And even to this day, like I notice some of her sort of like personality characteristics, instead of trying to focus on like, what do the books say? What, you know, what does everybody say? What does my in-laws say? It made such a difference to just learn to listen to that child and like, okay, this is, this is what they need. But then when you're a first time mom, you haven't figured out that language yet, right? That body language, you're still learning how to read that. With the second kid, it was a lot easier. It's like, all right, we know a little bit more now. And so it's much easier. And we also had the routines, by the way, that's something I should mention, because my older Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: daughter was already, you know, going to preschool. And so we already had those routines of like, when we wake up, we're gonna get her to school and and take a walk and then baby can nap and stuff like that. But with the first kid, it's not like that at all. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah, you kind of find your rhythm a little bit better, I think, with the second one and the first one. It's like, what am I doing? Who are you? How do we do this? Yeah, yeah. And that's just so beautiful, too, that you mentioned the sleep duo was able to kind of, you know, ground everyone and say, you know, it's a combination of personalities. And I feel like that more than ever is is like what we need to be hearing and tuning into is that the family, it's holistic, right? I want to fast forward a little bit too and talk about more present day, but just looking back a couple years ago. So that was... You know, just a couple years ago, you went through a RIF which allowed you in one aspect to spend more time with your family and take a step back. But also, I imagine there was probably a lot of grief at this point that you were navigating with such a robust career and so much time that you had invested in it. And I think this... piece of information and this experience of yours is really important to share if you're open to it because so many folks right now, know, in tech and across other industries are going through a similar experience. So could you open up for us and just share what that was like and dealing with kind of like the two edges of that Clara: Mm-hmm. Krislyn Powell: experience? Clara: Yeah, gosh, you know, we invest so much time in our careers and trying to do the right thing, right, to grow as humans, I guess, you know, as working moms, especially. I feel like there's a lot of pressure to just do it all. And I was working as a user experience researcher in these startups, basically almost as a solo practitioner. I had help, I had support from my... You know, coworkers in the second startup. was working at the startup was set for contract nurses, and to look for jobs for contract nurses. And so I was working with a nurse who had experience with this. And so it wasn't that I didn't have support. definitely had support, but it still really tough because Essentially, I was building a research practice within these startups. And so I had to figure out all the pieces of it, of like building the foundations, like how do I run this thing? How do I still collaborate with my colleagues and set it up so that they understand, this is how, it's almost like a consulting service within the startup, you know? So you're running a service and so you have to build that service in a way that people can understand it and adopt it as well. And so that was what I was going through. And this is all during the COVID pandemic. And prior to that, I had been working in a company where I was required to go into work at least twice a week. And it was, you know, very long commute. And so this was just very different for me to suddenly be isolated and in lockdown because I wanted to keep my kids really safe. That was really important to me. I am Asian American. And so there was also a lot of crazy messages that I was been hearing like about COVID and you know, it was just very confusing at that time. And so I was just working a lot. I remember there was even a time where I just felt like I had to prove myself and I was really, really sick. My family had me in a separate room, so I was quarantined and I was working while sick and nobody asked me to do that. I, you know, I was doing it because I thought like this is what I need to do. Krislyn Powell: and. Clara: And so you know, basically probably pushed myself too hard and had just been overworking. So yeah, when I was RIF'd it was a huge relief in a way because I needed that rest, right? We hadn't really gotten it. And Krislyn Powell: him. Clara: being sort of a very like social person, I like to do a lot of things. I like to be involved in a lot of things. It was it was just suddenly like this opportunity of like, first of all, grief because you know now I don't have that full-time job that is the thing that you know gives us structure in our day to day but Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Clara: also yes definitely a lot of relief because like okay now I can do all the things that I've been holding back on you Krislyn Powell: Yeah Clara: know all the things I want to do for my family I think one of the first things I did right after I was RIF'd as part of just like you know, um, recovery, I made a blanket, a crochet blanket for my nephew, my second nephew who is in Sweden. My sister lives in Sweden and she's got two boys. And so, you know, I made him a blanket and it was just like the thing where it's a very small thing that is on my list of things. It's like, I'd like to, you know, just like check this off as a bucket list item of having learned how to do this thing of making a blanket, right? And so that was really cool and it Krislyn Powell: It's so funny. Clara: was fun, but then it was like, okay, well now what? Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Clara: So I took some time off and we traveled as a family. went to the south of France for the first time. Krislyn Powell: you Clara: That was really fun. My husband is French Canadian and so we do speak some French. My kids less now. They used to speak more when they were little, but. It was just really fun for us to experience that and for them to be exposed to the culture there and, and, you know, just get some of that, you know, that French language in, because it was really important to us that they are exposed to it. So that was really great. But yeah, that just kind of gave me time to think about like, how else do I want to grow? Right now it's very tough for a lot of people. And so I think a lot of people are pivoting in a lot of ways and trying to find like if not tech, then what, right? The sort of this Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Clara: question of like, what else can we do? How else can we work? you know, I actually have this book by the way, called Radical Rest by Evie Muir. I read a couple of chapters of while was, you know, in this sort of rest period. It's really important Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: to take that break, especially after being burned out. And I have Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: to say, it's been two years, but it took that long to recover. I guess I want to just add one thing to that, which is when I was working, I always felt like it took time away from my kids. And it Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: was just a real gift in the sense that I could reconnect with my kids. I believe at the time they were much younger. And so there was always a school drop-offs, the school pickups, the after school activities, all that stuff to do and just giving them a chance to. connect because sometimes when even when we were working from home it felt like it's like I'm too busy I can't play with you right now you know all those things so it's great to have Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: the time. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, no, I also really relate to that as well with even just, you know, I have a four-year-old and a seven-month-old and there's a sense of perspective and realization of like how present I... wasn't with the first and versus now the second now I'm choosing to handle it differently and just just a noticing and an awareness of there were moments where like I could have been there a bit more and been more joyful and taken time to be with you but instead I was like yeah that's that's great you know and mom's gonna go jump on this call We have to be gentle with ourselves and we did the best that we can with what we had at certain points of our lives. But I'm curious if you'll share some more details around that, like, you probably felt that there may have been pockets of joy that you could have celebrated a bit more or been more present at different moments. And as you have seen your children grow, looking back, what's your perspective there on... on presence and awareness when they're little and how maybe time goes by a little faster than you thought it would. Clara: my gosh, it goes so fast. It's so fast. I mean, I've got a 14 year old now and she's super independent and she takes the school bus to school and you know, she's got her, her I-watch. She's just got all these Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: things that she's, she's totally self-sufficient and very like secure in herself. And that's great. I think probably one of the ways I was really lucky in all of this, everything always felt so rushed, but Because I'm a user experience researcher and in one of the companies that I was working at, we were training other employees in what we would call empathy interviewing. And so when I first started that job, this was at Change Healthcare, I was also trained in empathy interviewing in the way that the company was doing it. And it was funny because after that one day workshop where we were working with our our collaborators and partners and saying this is how we do it and they all got practice and then I was with the group also practicing and went home. I think my daughter was like six or something and I started practicing on her. But it's Krislyn Powell: That's awesome. Clara: funny because now she sort of does the same things because like we kind of have this like language of like I just try to ask a lot of questions of them like how's your day and just kind of. follow what they're interested in. I think that was a real lesson in itself, but holding joy sometimes with my kids was just so hard because like the second one, she always needed me to sing her a song or it's like, they always need, I need water, I need this, right? They do all those things. Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Clara: And you're like, okay, you've got the water, you've got... your toy and you you've got all the things and like you don't need a second song. I just got so impatient sometimes like looking at the time, you they're testing their limits and stuff but it was just it's just so funny, you know when I look back because at the time I was just so impatient about it's like how does she really need another song? Like does she really need another book? And now it's like those that are probably the moments I cherish the most of like having rocked my baby or like read them a book or something like that. Cause like I said, I have a 14 year old now and it's like, Hey, like where's my hug? I haven't got my hug today. She's, you know, she's Krislyn Powell: Thank you. Clara: off doing something else now. So yeah, it's, it's a total Krislyn Powell: Okay. Clara: big shift. And yeah, just knowing that now that they grow up at some point and it's a different season. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah. I like how you mentioned that in seasons, you know, there are different seasons that you move through with your kids and... Another thing that you brought up that I'd love to talk about with our listeners is language. Languages have been a foundation in your household. You're a multilingual household and I think there's a robust culture that comes with various languages, especially when you live and breathe them day to day and then you get to go visit different locations where those languages are prominent. I'd love for you to share a little bit about kind of the reasoning behind that. I know you said your husband. as well, like he is French-Canadian and has a different background too and probably different culture that you guys have woven in. And so what has that looked like for your family and why did you choose to raise your kids that way? And I imagine it takes on like greater meaning too in the memories and the seasons as they shift. Clara: yeah, it's definitely changed because I think the pandemic too, my kids became more monolingual, but they have, you know, awareness of those languages now that they're older. But my husband and I met because we had this shared interest in travel. And so that was a big part, I guess, of, you know, what our relationship was like. It sort of happened by accident because grew up speaking Mandarin. In addition to English, usually my mom will speak to me in Mandarin, I would respond in English. But, you know, with our first daughter, I was just talking to her and I was speaking in English. My husband says, why don't you speak to her in Mandarin? I said, as like Mandarin, like I never thought about that. So, OK, I'll just start doing that. And then he starts being in French. And so for a while it was like very mixed because I speak to her in Mandarin, speak French, and then we speak to each other in English, right? So that we Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Clara: had that kind of dynamic, but it was really helpful. Krislyn Powell: Bye. Clara: Yeah, because his parents don't speak much English, they speak some, but then, you know, it's kind of important so that they can communicate with their grandparents. That's a really, really important part of it. Same thing with my family. My grandmother doesn't speak any English, and so for them to be able to communicate with her when they met her, and speak Mandarin was, it was a big deal. Now they've sort of lost a bit of both languages, but they know that if they wanted to, they can pick it up and it's available to them, right? And I think that was really important to us. We really like to travel. I mentioned the trip to France. And so a big part of that was just spending time with people who were there, the people that we met and listening to their stories. Southern France, by the way, is such a beautiful place and people just kind of randomly share a little bit about themselves. And so if we didn't know the language, it would be really hard to have that kind of experience. It's one that I really want for my kids to have. Just like Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: the really human stories that pop up, you know, Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Clara: like we met an owner of a sandwich shop and he goes, oh, that's a, you know, that's a Canadian's hat. Like, are you guys Canadians? And in this case, I just say yes. I don't really explain myself. don't say I'm American. just, you know, speaking French with him and then just say, yeah, okay, I'm French Canadian now. So it's kind of fun to be able to shift identities and be a little bit fluid with people in that way. It also helps our kids to be sort of like really adaptable and flexible and also welcoming, right, to people of all kinds. You know, just having that tolerance for everyone, I think is really important. Krislyn Powell: I want to redirect a little bit to what you're doing now. So kind of present day Clara and I understand that you're exploring solopreneurship and Clara: Yes. Krislyn Powell: you are helping women and minorities unlock creativity through nature-based practices. explain a little bit more about this vision and how you tapped into this and your why and meaning because I think it's really cool. I think this is like an opportunity that not everyone chooses, but it's there. It's like when you part ways with one career track or an organization, it's like this could be an opportunity for you to open up and do work that you love and are passionate about and tap into something for yourself. Yeah, tell us about it. I'd love Clara: I think now I have a little bit more comfort with the idea of, you know, there are seasons of your life that you're going to go through, whether that's all in on full time work, or, you know, maybe saying I'm just going to take a pause here and see what I can explore for myself. Because when I was working in startups, that did sort of open a little bit of a door to me as to what it's like to work as a solopreneur, right? I was working as a solo UX researcher. And so there's a lot of translation in that. But I think it sort of started a lot earlier than the startup roles was in or that kind of spark, because very Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: early when my kids were very, little, I went to a therapist and I was like crying and it's like, I don't have any time. There's no time. I'm so overwhelmed and I don't have any time for myself. And the therapist says, Well, how much time do you have for yourself? And I was like, what? And she says, how much time do you have for yourself? I said, probably just five minutes. Five minutes is all I have. She said, wow, five minutes. That's not a lot of time. And Krislyn Powell: You Clara: I was like, yeah, exactly, right? Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: And so what actually came out of that is this realization of walking out of this therapist's office. It's like five minutes. I was like, what can I do with five minutes? So funny. And I decided, say, you know what? I haven't picked up a book in a long time. And so right before I went to bed, I think I read like one sentence of that book or something. Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Clara: And I was like, I can read a sentence. And then that built up. And so I think what I learned is this type of skill in which I was like, if anything I'm passionate about, I could probably do it in five minutes or at least make a little progress towards it. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: And so during the pandemic, know, everybody picked up some sort of hobby or something like that. And for me, I said, you know, there's a nine-year-old Clara who wishes that she could draw again. And I said, let me look at that and see what I can do for her, right? So looking at that inner child and saying, how can I do something that will make her very happy? Because I haven't had that self-love, self-care in a long, long time. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: You know, it was always a little bit of struggle, especially when the kids are very small. That was a season that was like a very, very busy season of caring for my kids and feeling like all of my time went towards them. And now they're getting older. I have a little bit more time, you know, versus 10 minutes. Next is 15 minutes or something. I would Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Clara: carry two sketchbooks with me. One was like kind of a throwaway. I call it a scratch book. I write about in my newsletter actually, which is called Love Notes to Nature, which I'll talk about in a minute. sometimes I just hand that one to my kids and then I take my other book out and start drawing in it. So that's kind of how it started. But once I got RIF'd I discovered that because I have this interest already in nature, I've always had this interest actually, in animals and plants and all these things. Kind of like the science of it is what I'm fascinated by. But then around the same time, my daughter was asking me, like, it looks like climate change is here. looks like there's all these problems in the world. Like, what are we going to do about it? So my older daughter was actually one of the inspirations for this newsletter. And, you know, I came across this practice of kind of combining pictures and words and numbers, which is like nature journaling together. And And I said, you know what, let's start a newsletter and we can talk about how to approach this practice of nature journaling and using it as a storytelling mechanism about how we can fall in love with nature all over again, as well as giving self-care to ourselves by doing it. It's really wonderful actually because Then as I'm doing it, sometimes kids get inspired, adults get inspired, because often I'm outside doing it and people like, look over my shoulder, what are you doing? So that's kind of how it started. So Love Notes to Nature is the newsletter that I'm offering right now in which I sort of not tell you, but show you this is what it looks like. And usually it'll start with some kind of nature journaling entry or some entry that I have about. what I'm exploring, whether that's something out in my backyard and the flowers that just bloomed this spring or, you know, something else. I have a series I'm working on right now around ocean animals and tide pooling. And it's just, it's just a lot of fun really to explore Krislyn Powell: So cool. Clara: all these topics, but hopefully it's a way to help others self-regulate, right? Krislyn Powell: Hmm. Clara: And it's intergenerational too. So I want mostly hopefully it's working moms, I hope that they can connect with us and say, okay, just five minutes a day, at least go outside and look at something and appreciate and just take a moment Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: to be mindful for myself so then I can take care of my family, right? There's a part of that, but then hopefully the kids also can get into it too. And then it's not a them versus me type of situation where it's either I care for myself or I care for them, but it's, can. kind of do this together, so. Krislyn Powell: Oh my gosh. So many things are resonating with me and I just, I think this is so cool, this endeavor that you're birthing. I mean, really, like we talk about birth at work, right, on this podcast and it's like you're birthing this venture, this business, and it's kind of like a seed stage that you're starting out here and there's also a big identity shift for you too with your kids growing up and I just. I see these two big shifts happening for you and like how cool it is that you have found a way to regulate and be curious about the world around you and so you're taking your experience and helping other people and like you said a lot of it like for working mothers to tune in to something that is not just for them, but bigger than themselves that can help regulate their families as well. Wow. So, well, first I want to say too that I have a deep appreciation for nature and the frequencies and the grounding that happens there. so on that level, I just really relate. But also I did, I went to school in... got my undergrad in Parks and Recreation Management thinking I would be like a Leslie Knope type. But I, yeah, because when I was young, professional, in college age, nature is what really helped me regulate, like you said, and helped me find creativity and be happy in a world that was high pressure. you know, I was learning who I was as a person. so, yeah, I just think there's so many cool aspects to what you're doing. So as you're birthing this and you're feeling these identity shifts, what excitement is popping up for you? how are you celebrating what you're feeling and hoping for this in the present moments and also looking ahead for the future and what this could be as you grow it? Clara: Yeah, so I think part of starting a seed stage business is going out and trying to find the people who want this and are, you know, looking for ways to tap into their creativity. And that's something I'm really excited about because the idea is really, you know, it started with a conversation with my daughter, right? He's like interested in nature, cares about nature, wants to know how to take care of it. And then So now I'm having these conversations with other people about creativity and what it means to them. And I think there's this message actually about softness, which I think is really interesting because I feel like a lot of parenting sometimes to me has felt like pushing, like trying to just like push through, especially in those early days when you're just like, I'm so tired, like just push through, right? But there's this idea too of just like, how can we be? vulnerable, how can we be soft in those moments and let go a little bit and say, okay, this is where we are, but we don't need to be anywhere else in that presence. so that's some of the ideas I'm exploring. There's also kind of like a more concrete part of that, which is finding ways to connect with the community. know, like, for example, there's a place out here in California which is like really famous for tide pooling. around Half Moon Bay. And there's all these opportunities to kind of partner with different people and really like highlight these really lovely places that we have and kind of show people how you respect it as well, right? To really Krislyn Powell: Yes. Clara: respect all these natural places. Because for parents, it's like, this is such a great resource. You have an outdoor sort of school just waiting for you and where you can have a conversation with your child about just where you are. like, it's so fun, you know. This is kind of like a sidebar, but you know, there was a trip that we took out to Portland and then we just kind of traveled south. And I still remember this conversation with my daughter because I said, hey, check out these waterfalls, aren't they cool? Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm Clara: And I asked her, said, you know, what do you think about all this moss here? So we're just having kind of like a conversation, but it's also like a teaching conversation. And she says, what does it remind you of all this moss? And like, how do you think it got here? So we had, was asking her all these questions and she said, this moss, it kind of reminds me of a fluffy carpet. Like I wish we had that carpet in our house. I thought that was so cute. And so, you know, that's what I'm really excited about. It's like the... ways that we can really connect with nature, connect with each other, and really have that presence with our kids as well in building those kinds of conversations. It just makes them really smart and really curious about the world. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, that's really thoughtful in the way that you put it of teaching people not only about these natural environments that are all around us and how wonderful they are, but also having a deep respect and care for them. Something that we used to talk about when I went to school is leave no trace, right? But I think that's, it's difficult when you are present in the natural environment, it's gonna show that you were there, but how do you respect it? you know, with some greater meaning tied around that, like as we're learning to respect and admire and be curious about the beauty that is all around us in these natural environments and even the imperfections, I think that helps us correlate and... you know, have a deeper respect and care and admiration for our families, for the people that we love and hold dear and helps, you know, make us better parents and friends and, you know, neighbors. So that's really cool. I'm just like tying all of these things together, it's, and even sparks those curious conversations, like you said, you had with your daughter that are not only, you know, bonding moments, but also like learning moments as well. Clara: Yeah, they're definitely bonding moments. I think, too, just learning what it's like to be interconnected to one another is, I think that's a skill, too, that we learn as parents. know, one thing I wanted to bring up is one of the things that's really lightened my load is I made this sort of intentional goal for myself. I said, you know what, I don't need to do this by myself anymore. Like, I need to ask for help. And I have not just like close friends. have like best friends that will help me that also have kids, but also just in my community, right? In the elementary school community, there's a couple of parents that will help out, which is really great. So, you know, just having those sort of like co-parents who you can trade off with and say, hey, we've got this gymnastics class, like who's going to take the kids and take not just my kids, but their kids or vice versa, right? They've been very, very generous and been. taking on most of that load, but it's just so helpful, right? Because then you can kind of balance, especially multiple kids. And hopefully Krislyn Powell: yeah. Clara: it's like a reciprocal type of thing, which I think is also like a lesson that nature can teach us too about just being the reciprocity that we can create in our community and making those connections and realizing that we're really not alone at all if we just are able to let go a bit, because that's the biggest lesson I've learned in this time that I've been taking a sabbatical break and reflecting and recovering, is you really aren't alone and people are there. You just have to know who's in your tribe in a way who can help you. We have a little bit of community and we're looking out for each other and that's really, really nice. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel like community has been more of a buzzword the last few years with all of the changes in career fields and yeah, and more people starting businesses and just, you know, stepping outside and meeting your neighbors and connecting with other parents and like you said, building your own village. I think that's something we need to keep talking about and especially in... you know, as much as there are technological advancements that have really helped make our lives easier, sometimes, you know, having worked in tech, like both of us, we can get lost in tech and burn out. And I think on the flip side is true too, that like kid time in nature, time with people face to face is really important too. So, and you actually mentor, you know, other working parents and moms, and I'm curious, based on your own experiences and struggles, what is some perspective and advice that you give to other working moms and even maybe those that are younger than you? If you could look back at 30-year-old Clara, what would you tell Clara: Mm-hmm. Krislyn Powell: her? Clara: Yeah, the questions I get the most because it's very lightly just within the communities I am in. Sometimes it comes up like, should it, like, what do I do now? Should I continue working? I feel like I want to stop or I want to take a break. And, you know, then obviously you have to ask yourself, well, do I feel like I have enough financial security to do that? Like, what would it take? And maybe it's not a break forever either. Right. it's maybe just taking a chance to think about, okay, is it time for me to take a sabbatical? I had a friend actually who taught this to me because sometimes like, you you have the kids that you have and you you love them as much as you can, but they need a lot more. And so then your family has to make those decisions too about who's gonna have, who's gonna be the primary caregiver for the child, right? So a kid that's very neurodivergent, for example, who needs lot of support from social workers and the teachers and other people in the community, but also they might need a lot more from the parent too. And so that's a heavy, heavy load. And so how do you deal with that? That has been something that's come up. And so I think it's just important now, like we didn't really have this, right? 10 years ago or whatever to be that flexible. But I think a lot of people now, like post COVID, are really trying to figure out like, what does it look like for work to be part time? Or what does it look like if it's just one parent that's carrying most of the load? And maybe like for how long am I gonna take off work and taking that pause? So I think that's still so important to just kind of think about what's. Is it the right time or maybe it's not, but also, you know, think solopreneurship has taught me a lot about myself and like how I want to grow and how that's actually a different kind of growth than what I expected. this kind of like solo entrepreneurship could be a side hustle. It could change like capacity could change. It could be a 10 hour per week thing, or it could be a 40 hour a week thing. It's just, it's a choice that you have to make and decide and how you want to balance because That work-life balance is really hard and I think a lot of people are starting to think about what does that really look like it can be more flexible and work doesn't have to be like a 40 hour week all the time. Or, Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Clara: you know, you take a break and then maybe it's just the fact that you're just going to go back to work at some point in time. Maybe you still want to a side hustle or something that you can do both. It just depends. And also the age of the child and you know what, what do they need? So I think that's the challenge for a lot of families is just trying to balance the needs of everyone and and it does change. And I think that's important thing to remember. It's not going to be static forever. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah, there's no one size fits all to work and I think the way that you framed it is really refreshing and that we're talking about it more is that, you know, at different seasons and different places of life, like, work can look differently. It doesn't have to be the... corporate full-time, you know, nine to five, 40 hours a week or more. It doesn't have to be founding a business or a company. It doesn't have to be part-time. It can be any of those things. And there are portfolio careers happening now too. And I think that's just like, it's all great for working parents, even better to be able to kind of articulate, okay, what do I need now? And like you said, getting a little bit more analytical about it too, like financially, what makes sense? for us and also being open to what ebbs and flows with life. So as we close, I just want to say thank you again for the conversation and sharing not only about your motherhood journey, but also your career and how this new business venture for you has started and is expanding. And I want to close with two things. One is I would hope you can just kind of share with us, where to find you. I know you mentioned your newsletter, but let's say it again. We're going to link it in the show notes and how we can support your business, you know, on social and how we can connect with you. So, run us through that. Like, where can we find you? How can we support? Clara: Yeah, absolutely. So if you're in the Bay Area, I sometimes do post events on my newsletter and share wherever that's going to be. So the newsletter is lovenotestonature.org. So you know, we talked a lot about like self-love today. And so that's a part of it. lovenotestonature.org. And then the social, I am on Instagram, not very regular poster, but the handle is Clara Koala. dot sketcher. So that's a play on words on my name, depending on how you pronounce it. It could be Clara or Koala. that's my Instagram. And yeah, you could probably find me on LinkedIn as well. But those are the main places. Krislyn Powell: Awesome. Awesome. And then we always also like to close with this question. So each guest answers at the end of their episode. And it's just, what hope do you have for future working parents? Clara: Oh, it's such a great question. And I think what I'm hoping is that we could sort of give it a little bit more flexibility at work so that, you I would hope that people can still be supported by their full time jobs. But if if workplaces could sort of, you know, make it more possible for us to have like, okay, this is a part time season. And then now I'm going back to full time. Stuff like that. I know sometimes in federal like working environments, they have those kinds of setups, but it's not as often in, in sort of like the corporate setup. So I hope there's going to be more that we can do to sort of like balance out, you know, working hours because, I think too, this is something that I'm realizing is With remote work, has given us a lot more flexibility, but it would be really interesting to kind of see what it would look like for things like work sharing or for make it more possible for maternity leave to be better supported. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, 100%, I agree. I love that you shared these and thank you again for joining us on the episode today. I'm so excited to have you and it's just been a great conversation. Clara: Thank you so much, Chris. This was so much fun. And yeah, this is such an important topic. So thank you so much for having me.