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The Loadstar Podcast with Container Trades Statistics: Unpacking 2025 · The Loadstar

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Lodestar Podcast. I'm your host, Charlotte Goldstone. Now, I'm assuming if you've tuned into this podcast, you already know that global container shipping had a roller coaster year in 2025, but the numbers themselves tell a fascinating story. So what better person to be joining us today than the CEO of Container Trade Statistics, Nigel Pusey. For anyone who doesn't know, CTS is the most comprehensive data set on the market for global container shipping volumes and pricing. Its data is comprised of 75% contributed member data from the shipping lines themselves and market driven estimates for the remaining 25%. They release monthly reports that really do contextualize the stories we report on and the external factors in the market. So a bit later on in the episode we are also going to be joined by the Lodestars Managing editor Gavin Van Marle, and the three of us are going to be dissecting and analyzing the biggest share shifts in volumes, pricing and trade lanes over the past year. Coming up is why freight rates fell nearly 20% year on year despite a fairly strong demand where peak season really showed up on the Asia to Europe lane. And a look into some strong secondary trades. Plus, I'm also going to be putting Gavin and Nigel's past predictions to the test from the podcast that we recorded back in September, and I'm also going to ask them for some new forecasts for 2026. So without further ado, let's get straight into the epis. Nigel, hello and welcome to the Lodestar podcast. It's great to have you here.
• 1:33
  Speaker B: Good afternoon to you. Shut up. Great to be speaking again.
• 1:36
  Speaker A: Before we dive into all the dynamics and factors that shaped pricing and volumes in 2025, I want to get an overview of what happened with some quick fire questions based on the CTS data in numbers. So what was the total volume demand growth globally in 2025 or decline as it may be?
• 1:55
  Speaker B: No, it's definitely increased 4.7% versus 24 globally. That's around 193 million TEUs, up from about 184 in 24. So a pretty healthy increase, much of which none of us predicted.
• 2:10
  Speaker A: And overall globally, did moving freight get more expensive or less?
• 2:15
  Speaker B: Well, as ever, shipping defies normal demand. Supply economics in that demand is up by 4.7%, but prices went down by 18%. Interestingly, and we'll get onto this a bit later, the capacity itself has pretty much moved with volume demand, so it's a slight intrigue as to what's going on but we'll dig into that data.
• 2:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that as a slight silver lining for shippers. Despite all the chaos that's gone on this year, which trade saw the overall highest volume?
• 2:43
  Speaker B: So the biggest trade, Inter Asia, is just creeping below 50 million TUs, which is 26% almost of total trade. So you know that Intra Asia trade is massive. That's grown by about 5% this year and that's pretty much close to two and a half million TEUs. So pretty significant movement.
• 3:03
  Speaker A: Well, I mean, as we know, volume doesn't tell the full story. So which trade recorded the most growth in volume?
• 3:09
  Speaker B: So, interestingly, in terms of growth, the big one, the big mover this year has been Asia, Far east to Sub Saharan Africa and particularly West Africa, where the overall African sub regions have reached around 27%. But I think when you look into West Africa, we're talking well over 30% increase. We touched on a little bit of this in our last podcast, but it's certainly massive growth area. The other one we had was Far East Europe, but we'll go into that later. And that's up a pretty healthy 9% as well, nearly 2 million CEUs, which is quite remarkable.
• 3:44
  Speaker A: On the flip side of this, which trade saw the biggest decline in volume? I think I know what you're going.
• 3:48
  Speaker B: To say, but it'll be no surprise that Greater China to the US was the biggest faller, almost 1.7 million TEUs, down 15% this year. So a massive shift in cargo, and I think that is the story of 25, is this massive shift out of US transpac into other global areas.
• 4:08
  Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. If I had a pound for every time I said the word tariff or wrote the word tariff.
• 4:12
  Speaker B: Exactly. In 25, you've been very rich.
• 4:15
  Speaker A: So, Nigel, now you have given us the overview of the numbers. Thank you very much for that. We're going to dive a bit further into it. And of course, we can't discuss the ocean freight dynamics without Lodestar Managing Editor Gavin Van Mul. Hello, Gav.
• 4:28
  Speaker C: Hello, Charlotte. And greetings to you, Nigel.
• 4:31
  Speaker B: Greetings to you, Gav. Good to see you again.
• 4:33
  Speaker A: I didn't want you to get fomo, Gav. So I think it's pretty clear what the reason is for the huge declines on the Trans Pacific. That is, of course, the flurry of tariffs that we saw in 2025 from the Trump administration, which made importing goods into the US a lot more expensive, especially from China. And we spoke a lot about this in the last episode from the Lodestar and CTS back in September. But I'm curious, Nigel, if this is kind of intrinsically linked to the growth scene Intra Asia, is it purely to do with the China plus one strategy that is the main driver of this intra Asia growth?
• 5:08
  Speaker B: I don't think so. I think this is just. That's where the economic growth is in terms of the region. If you look at Southeast Asia as an area, they're looking at sort of 10% increase, which is almost double China's increase this year as an economic unit. Now, some of that is America buying out of Vietnam and Cambodia rather than China. And it may still be Chinese owned factories. So that sits with its own irony. But I think what we're seeing here is just Indra, Asia has an economic growth cycle all of its own. I don't think it's switching. I think if there is a switch, it's probably more that China's focusing on the South Americas and the Africas that we've mentioned and to a certain extent India as well. So I think the growth that has come out of China's decline is just them looking to spread their trade wings, if you like, into so areas where they've either had or wished to move to. And Africa and India and South America are definitely growth areas in their own right. So they're working on a fairly simple opportunity.
• 6:14
  Speaker A: Yeah. Is this reflective of what you're hearing anecdotally? I mean, I think when I did the Ocean Network Express results report, they wrote about the Intra Asia trade being one that they wanted to deploy more capacity to, they saw that as a real opportunity. Is that kind of true with what you're hearing?
• 6:29
  Speaker C: Well, I mean, certainly one would look to do that because their results in other corridors weren't so promising. And also of course, as a Japanese line and the fact that in the recent network reshuffles, I don't think there's a single direct call out of a Japanese port to European port anymore in 2026. So for one particularly, it has both a responsibility to its stakeholders to be providing those kind of links, particularly in Japan, just to sort of as a counterpoint to what Nigel is saying there, the, if you look at the, not the container data, but the trade surplus data that has just started to be reported out of Asia. And some stats came out earlier this week. The trade surpluses of Malaysia, Thailand and Vietnam with the US have grown astronomically in 2025 compared to the year before. I mean, Malaysia's trade surplus is up 45%, Thailand's is up 44% and Vietnam's is up 28%. I mean, these are really big export numbers, largely containerized goods.
• 7:33
  Speaker B: Absolutely. And we mustn't forget that they were also subject to some tariffs. So it's quite remarkable that those trade surpluses have been generated even with the tariffs that were being imposed on them. So I think it is quite a remarkable story underlying it. We've got southeast Asia to US up for the full year around 19%. It doesn't quite offset the decrease in China, but it goes a long way to offset. So, you know, America's softened the blow, if you like, in terms of what would have been quite catastrophic if they'd only relied on China.
• 8:08
  Speaker C: Yeah, I agree, I agree. But interestingly, at the same time, the figures that I've got showed the surplus with the US but it also showed the deficit that those three countries have with China, which over 2025 also widened. So Malaysia's trade deficit with China widened by 62% last year. Thailand's by 50% and Vietnam's by 40%. So at the same time, there has been more trade going from China into these Southeast Asian countries.
• 8:38
  Speaker A: You always hear people say trade is like water. If you try and stop it, it's just going to find a different way around. And that is exactly what has happened with the tariffs here. Next, I want to zoom into the Far east to Europe trade, which saw an annual record in 2025 of 19.8 million TEU, up 18.2 million TEU. That was 2024's figure. That is according to your data, of course, Nigel, and a 9% growth, which is absolutely huge. So my first question is when was the peak season? Gavin, I have been speaking about this all year. We keep saying, was that the peak season? Was that the peak season? So could you, could you illuminate this?
• 9:14
  Speaker B: My answer is there? Well, I think There must be three peaks. May, August and December. We've hit over one and a half, 1.6 million. December was a record month. So alongside the annual record of close to 20 million, we hit 1.87 million in December alone, which was 12 and a half percent up on November. So it's a massive increase and I think worth breaking down some of that to see where in Europe it's come because we have seen a big move into the East Med for all sorts of things. Lots of new lines. East Med is 14% of the 9 overall. North Europe is pretty much in the middle, slightly below the average. And West Med is just over. So you've got Three regions pushing, but I think the interesting one is the push into the East Med. There are all sorts of reasons why the East Med is growing. Some of it isn't necessarily ending up in the East Med, but much of that is growth that we're seeing in the Turkeys and those areas where the economies are relatively small and growth rates can be bigger. It doesn't explain really why in North Europe, where economic growth is barely 1 or 2%, we're still growing 7 or 8%. And we mustn't forget that was on the back of a 24 increase which was of a similar size. So it's a two year growth in European cargo out of the Far east, which is quite phenomenal. And nobody seems to be able to put their finger on exactly why.
• 10:44
  Speaker C: No, we're still at a sort of hypothesis stage of analyzing this. There has been thoughts that I think for the last three years, it would be fair to say that there's been a sort of a peakish thing observed around this time of year, around December, January. I mean, I found it surprising to see this surge coming after Christmas. But the forwarders I've spoken to here in Europe weren't actually that surprised about it. They've sort of become accustomed to this. So I wonder if that Far East Europe contains supply chain has sort of morphed from being characterized by one big peak in sort of May to August, and it's morphed into several smaller peaks. Whether the actual accumulated cargo volume is going to be higher across the 12 months, as it were, because there's a stronger cargo flow across the months rather than everything being put into a peak.
• 11:41
  Speaker B: Interesting. And I was sort of reflecting on that as well, Gav. And I wonder whether some of it is to do with the fact now you've got this stretched supply chain, you've got 10 days, which is quite a lot.
• 11:52
  Speaker C: I mean, certainly I remember a couple of years ago, it was literally a couple of weeks after the start of the Red Sea crisis and the widespread redirection of vessels around the Cape. And I was sitting beside one owner of a freight forwarding company and asked him about this and he said, well, we've just gone back to our shippers and just told them, just pretend it's Covid all over again. Yeah, that's the best way that you can secure your supply chain. So already in early 2024 they were already starting to build up those buffer stocks. And I suspect that there hasn't been a change in that sort of behavior.
• 12:25
  Speaker B: Because why would there be the Fascinating thing about that. Has been able to do it at significantly lower prices than they did 24 because the index is down somewhere between 30 and 35 points over that period. So we're talking about pretty much a third reduction in the Far east input freight rates.
• 12:44
  Speaker A: It's really interesting for me hearing you two talk about this because I've only been in logistics for like two years, so I don't really. I've never really seen normal seasonality. You've spoken to me about it a few times, Gav, but I don't really know what is a normal year. So I'm looking forward to seeing what 2026 brings.
• 12:59
  Speaker B: Well, normally it won't be normal.
• 13:02
  Speaker C: I've forgotten what a normal year is.
• 13:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to say that's just us oldies trying to remember what we thought it used to be like pre. Yeah.
• 13:11
  Speaker A: I'm curious to know if this is all linked together as in like is the growth in Europe directly correlated to the loss seen on the Trans Pacific? Is it like those major exporting nations finding new consumers just like the US importers found new markets to import from?
• 13:26
  Speaker B: I think not. I think particularly on Far east import because it's essentially driven by buyers. You know, it's not a Chinese driven market. It's a very much big retail companies. It's mostly consumer goods. I mean there are others but I'm going to simplify it now. But it's essentially big retailers buying stuff, needing that supply chain to stretch out. That's the only rational logic that I have for a 9% increase and I just think that's what's driven it. I don't think particularly China's had to push very hard to get that sales move from America to Europe. They've managed to use the globe in a much wider perspective. That was not in my mind. Oh crikey, we're going to be slapped tariff. This was a decision they took in mid 24 to reposition themselves. We know that lines were watching what was going on strategically in China and the ones that did really well are the ones that took that signal and repositioned their networks to capture that kind of region.
• 14:29
  Speaker C: And the China West Africa trade that you mentioned before, it's the classic example and we talked about it in the last podcast, you know that actually a lot of that market was is created by the Chinese themselves with the belt and road initiatives, all the equipment that needs to build those projects, that's still going on. That's going to take two, three years at least, if not longer. So I'd agree with Nigel. I don't think you've seen a redirection of cargo from the Trans Pacific to Europe. But there, but there are factors with these Europe thing. I mean, there is the ongoing Russia effect. The services linking Russia, which used to be mainline deep sea services, into Rotterdam or Hamburg and then feeded up St Petersburg, they don't happen at all anymore since the invasion. And instead those flows are going through Suez on smaller Russian or Chinese carriers and into places like Iskenderum and Ismir and in Turkey or in. Exactly in Damietta and Alexandria. Obviously the Mediterranean is dominated by what's happening in Suez. Yeah. So with WestMed, there's, there's obviously been a large shift of transshipment activity that used to be done sort of anywhere from Port Said to Malta is now being done in Tangier and Algeciras. Would that have an effect on the growth numbers or.
• 15:47
  Speaker B: I think that's certainly having an impact. I think the big lines, the ones that are being forced to go in round the Cape of Good Hope, they would subtly change their marketing effort into the WestMed. They're going to have faster transits because, you know, actually the difference to Tangier Med is probably not that much difference. It's certainly not the 10 days to Rotterdam that it would be if you come through a Suez. So I think we're seeing the big container lines going to the West Med and then we're seeing the smaller lines that can still operate through Suez. And you know, when we look at the data of the lines that we know that are only going up into the East Med, that's where the growth volume is. There were one or two that have got triple digit growth rates. Yeah, gotcha. 2024 into East Med. So, you know, the dynamics of that have changed. Yes.
• 16:39
  Speaker A: Also, before we move on, I just want to quickly touch on the fact that the price index was down 17 points or 18% from January to December in 2025. I feel like the rates were a bit all over the place this year. They were going up and down quite sporadically. I feel like Carri trying to implement GRIs, but it never really materialized, it seems. I mean, do any of you have any insight as to why rates are so low at the moment? Is it a supply or a demand thing?
• 17:03
  Speaker B: I mean, we, we look at this and I try to look at all sorts of different ways, but I don't see, you know, whilst everybody's talking about the overhang of capacity into the latter part of the 2020s. So to speak, I don't see any of it really happening in 25. And sometimes I think it's just perception that people get into the nervousness of a contract thinking more we need the cargo, we got the capacity, we brought it on. Sentiment plays as much value as economic reality.
• 17:31
  Speaker C: I've just been looking at, just before we came on this, I just thought, come on, let's look at the Trans Pacific for this. And one of my contacts over on the west coast I was in communication with yesterday just said this is the period of significant decline on the West Coast. Certainly it's a very low demand environment. There's not many people wanting to ship. The spot rate that I was quoted yesterday for a 40 foot into the US West coast from North Asia is down to sort of 1450 to $1500, which is pretty much that break even point. So to go back to your point Nigel, then it becomes about sentiment, doesn't it? Because suddenly the cash becomes an issue.
• 18:15
  Speaker B: And you know, you can try and get boxes onto the ships but it just, it still doesn't quite tie in. This whole strength of demand is something not quite adding up in the number and perhaps it sometimes it takes a few months to get that to understand. I mean Transpac rates are down 25 points year on year, so in many ways they're no worse than Far East Europe. And yet one's got a 10% increase and the other one's showing 4% decrease. So it's very strange. You wouldn't expect that particularly for what I would call a broadly neutral capacity over, you know, new capacity coming in is probably neutral in the year.
• 18:55
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:56
  Speaker A: I'm really intrigued to see what happens with contracting this year. I feel like off the back of such a low rate year, it's going to be very interesting to see what.
• 19:04
  Speaker C: Shipments, I mean on the Asia, Europe for the initial reports I've had is the contract rates sort of agreed in January were slightly higher than people had hoped for by I don't know, 100 or $200 or so.
• 19:19
  Speaker B: Right. To be honest, I mean given where the volumes have, you know, we'll obviously have a collapse back into February as we go into Chinese New Year and probably January will be a bit softer than normal. But I think there's nothing to say that as such the Far East Europe volumes are going to become zero growth, it's going to slow down, but I don't think it's going to be a mighty collapse yet. And I think that we will see when and if Red Sea and Zoe's capacity unwinds.
• 19:48
  Speaker A: Well, while we're speaking speculatively, I just want to cast our minds back to last time we spoke, which was for a podcast that we recorded back in September based on the latest CTS data that we had at the time, which was for July because obviously there's a slight lag when carriers report and I very meanly asked you both to make predictions which was an impossible task for such a volatility volatile year. But I want to take a look at what you predicted and what actually transpired. So first up Nigel, you predicted that the growth in Vietnam, Cambodia, etc. It might start falling off. So let's roll the tapes of what you said. Exactly.
• 20:25
  Speaker B: I just wonder whether there's really the capacity in these countries fill this sort of volumes on an ongoing basis for long term. Vietnam's 22% up year on year. Indonesia 24% Cambodia 33%. So it's possible that this will all start falling off again because some of the Chinese ones have been paused and now we've got tariffs on the countries where the switches have happened. There you go, you see that's what happens when you. I shouldn't be in the prediction game. That's what they always tell me happily report on the past because clearly Southeast Asia continued to and undermine me because it pretty much kept going at the rate it was. So yeah, got it wrong.
• 21:11
  Speaker A: Well next you predicted that there would be softening from volumes July onwards but you said not at levels originally thought this year. So let's roll the tapes of what you said. Exactly.
• 21:23
  Speaker B: I definitely wouldn't try and predict it but I think inevitably we are going to get some softening. We've had the network changes, we've had the tariffs. I think all of that has probably forced a bit of liftings into the first half of the year. So I think the second half will be a little bit softer. It says I shouldn't predict make predictions and I've been proved right. I leave that to the great gavs of this world.
• 21:47
  Speaker A: What was the difference in volumes for the second half of the year to.
• 21:50
  Speaker B: The first as I say. So basically the increase was 5.2 in the second half and four and a half in the first. Yes, significantly bigger in the second half.
• 22:00
  Speaker A: Right, well I can't give you any points there then, I'm afraid. I'm very sorry.
• 22:04
  Speaker B: 0 of 2 so far.
• 22:06
  Speaker A: But you did tell me that you that you wouldn't dare to make predictions. So that is on me Gav. Let's see what you said, and if you fared any better. So your prediction was that Asia to secondary trades like sub Saharan Africa, south and Central America would continue stellar growth for the rest of 2025. So Nigel, was this true in the second half of the year?
• 22:27
  Speaker B: I'm sure I must have said after that. Oh, I totally agree with this one. But yes, it has simple answer. You know, I think volumes have been steady and not growing necessarily any greater than first half, but pretty much at the same level. And I think that's going to happen. That's going to happen for a while. As you were talking about earlier, particularly for sub Saharan Africa, I think South America has slightly tailed off towards the end of the second half, but only slightly.
• 22:54
  Speaker A: And Gav, you also predicted that the inter Asia trade would become even more dominant, which we've already spoken about and that was of course correct.
• 23:01
  Speaker C: Yeah, I mean these, these weren't hard predictions. Right. I was playing it very safe and.
• 23:08
  Speaker A: This is an audio podcast, but for listeners, Gav is looking extremely smug right now. So finally we'll look at your last prediction, which both you and Nigel described as a googly. So let's listen to what you said.
• 23:19
  Speaker C: Here's a googly for you. I reckon that we might actually see some strong growth in the eastbound transatlantic trade. I've got a feeling that I think there'll be demand in Europe for certain U.S. goods. I suspect that the dollar's going to decline in terms of its value and it seems to me that that will make a whole load of what I call the midlife crisis goods. Motorcycles, bourbon, whiskey, makes them cheaper, but you won't see it reflected in the price index.
• 23:47
  Speaker A: And so what actually happened here? Did this turn out to be a googly after all?
• 23:51
  Speaker B: Because I'm trying to gain back some of my points. I'm going to say that it continued is a bit like my prediction on Southeast Asia the other way around. You know, it didn't get any better, but it continued at the same level. Unfortunately for Gavin, there was a bit of a massive drop off in December, I think possibly to do with weather related issues actually. But effectively there was a quite a large drop in imports into Europe from North America, suddenly about 9%. So that took the shine off his. So it was 6% in the first half, 6% in the second half, but it's still strong. I mean, that's not the sort of growth we normally see on imports to Europe from North America. So I'm sure some of the things you were talking about, you know, this is where they Were finding different markets, a weaker dollar. All of that's contributed to that.
• 24:39
  Speaker A: He did also say that this would not be reflected in the pricing index. So is that true as well?
• 24:43
  Speaker B: Yeah, absol. Get. Got that one definitely right. Because the index has barely, has barely woken up all year. So I think it's actually traded three index points between beginning and start.
• 24:55
  Speaker C: I mean, it's. It's always been like that though.
• 24:57
  Speaker B: Yes, it has.
• 24:58
  Speaker C: It's the most boring trade ever to write pricing on because.
• 25:01
  Speaker B: Well, I think unlike. Unlike the other is not a retail market. It's a lot of sort of secondary product. It's a business to business market, generally pharmaceuticals, that sort of thing, as opposed to consumer retail market. So less open to the volubility of that sort of thing.
• 25:21
  Speaker C: Not subject to the midlife crises of millions of Europeans who are wondering what to do.
• 25:28
  Speaker A: I was going to say, if anyone listening to this, if anyone's listening to this, sat on a Harley Davidson sipping bourbon, they're going to feel personally attacked by you.
• 25:35
  Speaker B: It's a very small part of their movement.
• 25:39
  Speaker A: So finally now, to round off the episode, I'm gonna have to ask you for some more predictions that we can assess next time we speak. So, Gav, seeing as you did so well last time, what are you predicting?
• 25:52
  Speaker C: Okay, I'll just go. There has to be some sort of restocking exercise in the US at some point in 26. I don't know when that happens, but I mean, Nigel said earlier on, I think it's absolutely right there. It's gonna be a very horrible rate environment for carriers. But post Chinese New Year, and my suspicion is that very low freight rates on that route might offset some of the tariff costs because there has to be some sort of restocking. I don't think there's been any serious restocking of retail inventories for several months. The trouble is what happens to the dollar because although low freight rates might offset the tariffs, if the dollar declines, continues to decline in value, then that will offset the low freight rates.
• 26:36
  Speaker A: Yes, of course, we might also see those tariffs be abolished. We'll have to see what.
• 26:41
  Speaker B: You know, I'm not convincing that. Well, I think that like the sue is would. That would be the fascinating one. How much of this is embedded into now into infrastructure. And people go, well, actually we just quite like the way we're shipping now and this is actually good for us. We don't need to go back to China. Why take the risk? Because it could all come back again in a year's time. I think it's going to be a fascinating if tariffs were relaxed in any way. I think that would be an interesting moment, just like going back through sewers. So I think you're right and we saw it. You know, that's exactly what happened post Covid, wasn't it? We had these doldrums in the Transpac and then suddenly we went crappy. You know, stocks are low, we can't afford that risk, so we need to restock. Will it just follow the patterns that it's doing now and using Southeast Asia? Yeah, I think that's definitely one. You know, I'm going to go safe because I'm just going to follow some of the gabs from earlier. You know, I'm absolutely convinced that China is going to still keep pumping cargo into these Sub Saharan Africas and South America and InterAsia will continue to grow. So that's nice and easy because Gav said it last time so it must be true.
• 27:53
  Speaker A: Well, I look forward to chatting with you later this year, Nigel, to find out if 2023 is indeed any easier to predict than 2025. And before we wrap up the episode, I just want to shout out the TPM event in LA Long beach that is happening from the 1st to the 4th of March, Nigel. Container trade statistics will be in attendance. And I believe you're also speaking at the event.
• 28:13
  Speaker B: Yes. On the grand subject of the Asia Europe Shipping Outlook, playing the capacity management game. I think it's the 3rd of March for those who want to come and listen to me talk about Far East Europe again. But yeah, a fascinating subject with some very interesting and the important is that we've got somebody from the ports and somebody owner forwarder talking as well to give color to my rather dull statistics occasionally.
• 28:38
  Speaker A: Well, that sounds like one that is not to be missed. I'm sure that's going to be excellent. Gav, you're also going on behalf of the Lodestar.
• 28:44
  Speaker C: Yep, indeed. Very much looking forward to it. Annoying lots of people. I might leave you alone for a while, Nigel. There's going to be plenty of other targets there, the chances. So yeah, I'll be there with my colleague Arabella. Very much looking forward to.
• 28:57
  Speaker A: Got major fomo. So have one in the Dubliner for me, please.
• 29:00
  Speaker B: But enjoy Vegas.
• 29:02
  Speaker A: Charlotte though, thank you very much and thank you both so much for joining me this episode. It's been wonderful to speak to you.
• 29:07
  Speaker B: Fantastic. Good to speak to you.
• 29:09
  Speaker C: Thank you, Andrew. Thank you very much, Charlotte.
• 29:11
  Speaker A: Bye and thank you for listening.
• 29:13
  Speaker B: Goodbye. Thanks. Bye now.