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38 - How Moses Abu Darham Rebuilt Himself Through Masculine Containment · Masculine Containment

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Masculine Containment Podcast.
• 0:02
  Today, it is my pleasure, my privilege, to be interviewing a member of our third container, Moses Abu Darham.
• 0:09
  And we just spent about 15 minutes talking before we hit the record button, and I said, we finally have to stop talking and record because there's so much good information here.
• 0:21
  I'm so excited for you to meet Moses, to understand his journey, to understand a little bit more about what he got out of the brotherhood.
• 0:27
  Moses, thank you so much for being here today, brother.
• 0:29
  Thank you.
• 0:30
  My pleasure.
• 0:30
  I'm very excited to be here and to get into this conversation with you.
• 0:34
  Yeah, I'm glad that we finally hit record because I think it was more than time to do that.
• 0:42
  Yes, definitely.
• 0:44
  Let's jump in.
• 0:45
  So before the Brotherhood, before you came to us, what was going on for you, Moses?
• 0:51
  So I've been doing work around, I can call it like polarity, the masculinity aspect of like my relationship for, for nearly a year actually.
• 1:03
  And there were just a lot of missing pieces that I, that I found that you really filled in just, you know, following you on Instagram and yeah.
• 1:15
  you know, my relationship was getting better.
• 1:18
  There were still moments of challenges, but I think the biggest, my wife actually said this to me before.
• 1:22
  I was like, I'm going to speak to Alex from the podcast.
• 1:26
  She's like, if you need to speak to, just speak about how you hold yourself back.
• 1:30
  You're your biggest enemy.
• 1:33
  I was like, I guess that's a good topic.
• 1:35
  And it's, and it's a lot of my relationship has, has been around that, you know, I'm, I question myself.
• 1:42
  And it's, I think that has been a big piece of like, really grounding in my masculinity.
• 1:49
  And taking on that leadership element of being a man.
• 1:55
  And just hearing the tools and the techniques and speaking to other men has been so incredibly valuable.
• 2:04
  It's been a pleasure.
• 2:06
  I'm considering whether I'm going to join the next one.
• 2:08
  So, yeah.
• 2:10
  I'm glad to have you.
• 2:13
  So tell us like, you know, I think what's relatable for men, Moses, is when they hear what wasn't working, where the challenges were, you know, there's some and I think you experienced this in the brotherhood.
• 2:24
  So many men feel isolated.
• 2:26
  They feel alone.
• 2:27
  They feel like they're the only one who's having the challenges.
• 2:29
  And, you know, I don't know how many times we heard in this container, but over and over men said, I'm not alone.
• 2:35
  I'm not the only one.
• 2:36
  What was going on for you so that the men listening can hear that and understand they're not alone?
• 2:41
  So something I found was I'm very often the preacher who's like telling other people about these ideas.
• 2:50
  And it's quite a lonely place.
• 2:53
  You know, you have all these almost enlightened ways of seeing relationships, seeing your role, but nobody else is on that path with you.
• 3:04
  And being in a container with men who are on that path, like I was mind blown.
• 3:09
  Some of these shares that we had, I remember somebody sharing on a few weeks ago and he's like, I'm a felon.
• 3:16
  I've been convicted 10 times.
• 3:18
  And I was just feeling so hurt.
• 3:21
  And that was so inspiring to see somebody like that doing this work.
• 3:26
  And all of a sudden you're not alone.
• 3:28
  You're not this person preaching.
• 3:30
  You're together with this community of men.
• 3:32
  And I think I said it nearly every time we had a breakout, like I'm so honored to be around men who are doing this work.
• 3:40
  And it inspires me so deeply that there is this healing going on.
• 3:44
  And that for me, I think the camaraderie, the brotherhood was just such a powerful piece of what you've created.
• 3:52
  Really, on Friday, there was a group of us who spoke.
• 3:56
  I had various conversations on the side with guys who were going through a hard time.
• 3:59
  I said, hey, if you need to reach out, just call me.
• 4:01
  And two or three guys called me throughout the many weeks.
• 4:04
  And it was just this incredible moment being able to help, be helped, be seen.
• 4:09
  It was really, I think, for me, one of the most powerful parts of this container.
• 4:16
  I think brotherhood's a healing force all in and of itself.
• 4:19
  If we go back to before you joined, I think you reached out to me on social media.
• 4:25
  Yes.
• 4:26
  Was there anywhere in your life where you were stuck or feeling challenged?
• 4:30
  And is that what brought you to the brotherhood?
• 4:33
  Yes.
• 4:35
  There was parts around.
• 4:36
  So I have like a pretty...
• 4:39
  difficult background when it comes around sexuality, where there was sexual abuse.
• 4:45
  I was a single parent for many years, abusing my own sexuality.
• 4:50
  And it was always a difficult place in my relationship.
• 4:56
  And some of the practices really helped.
• 5:00
  And learning... Before you do the practices, when you say you were abusing your own sexuality, is it okay for me to ask what that means?
• 5:08
  Yeah, there was, I was a single dad and I thought like, oh, it's normal to be, to be sleeping with lots of women.
• 5:14
  And I never actually acknowledged that actually that wasn't normal.
• 5:17
  That I was constantly chasing, I guess you can say feminine validation.
• 5:23
  And, you know, it was never ending.
• 5:28
  chase.
• 5:29
  I was never going to find that.
• 5:30
  Actually, I was probably looking for my own validation.
• 5:34
  And I think the rational self-pleasure was really an interesting way of teaching that to myself.
• 5:42
  It doesn't have to be done in that way.
• 5:46
  There's a way to really
• 5:50
  validate every aspect of yourself like don't give into whether it's the fear or you know the need for for that comforting i can comfort myself i can show myself that love and it's not saying that my wife isn't going to but i have that responsibility to myself um and so yeah so can i ask you a question first moses before we talk about the rational but i do want to get into that
• 6:16
  Something comes up for me.
• 6:17
  You know, in the social media world, in the influencer world, there's all these men that are teaching men how to do exactly what you were doing.
• 6:25
  They're teaching them how to go out and sleep with a lot of women, how to attract a lot of women.
• 6:29
  Every time I see it, it makes my body like tighten and constrict because I've been there.
• 6:36
  You know, I was in that place and you were in that place.
• 6:39
  What did you discover about how much pain you were causing yourself when you were doing that?
• 6:45
  I was causing myself an immense amount of pain.
• 6:51
  Just, there were moments where I would
• 6:55
  it was this pattern where I would numb out completely and I would end up becoming very cold, disassociate.
• 7:02
  I would end up like then fighting with the part, the partner and being very cold and pretty horrible.
• 7:09
  And it's like something that I, I really asked forgiveness was, you know, it's not often, you can't really call these people and say like, do you forgive me?
• 7:16
  But like asking the universe for forgiveness and asking myself for forgiveness,
• 7:19
  because it was like, I remember once being, sitting in front of a partner and saying, I'm like, but I just, I feel this like, it was this like empowering feeling of numbness.
• 7:29
  It was horrible.
• 7:30
  And it was like you said, it's complete disassociation.
• 7:34
  And it was, it was damaging because you're blocking off so much of yourself.
• 7:39
  And, you know, I have like some really stories that I'm not sure if I'm ready to share on in public, but like really things that happened that were,
• 7:46
  Like, and I look back now, I'm like, wow, how much pain were you in that those were the things you were chasing?
• 7:52
  And, you know, I was, I was a single dad, so my kids lived with me full time.
• 7:55
  They still do.
• 7:56
  You know, I was hiding things and trying to like, you know, just crazy stories of things that I was doing because I was so desperate to get that validation all of the time.
• 8:06
  And it was, it was incredibly damaging to myself, to my, to the partners, to my kids.
• 8:12
  And it was just an untenable way of life.
• 8:15
  And I'm so grateful to the place that I'm in now that I value.
• 8:19
  First of all, I value my sexuality.
• 8:21
  I value the relationship with my partner.
• 8:22
  I value the relationship with myself.
• 8:25
  That there's this connection where I feel.
• 8:27
  I don't have to numb.
• 8:28
  I think we mentioned it before the call, expanding your sexual energy.
• 8:34
  And it's such a beautiful journey to be on.
• 8:36
  And I'm so grateful for that specific experience.
• 8:39
  technique and those tools that you you taught us of like you can do that that is something incredibly beautiful and powerful to to master you know like i you repeat this often like this is this is like a martial art and it's constant training and growth and it doesn't doesn't end but it does continue expanding yeah yeah for sure
• 8:59
  You know, when I look back at that period of my life, Moses, there's things that I have definitely spent so much time in forgiveness, self-forgiveness for things that I did.
• 9:09
  And I also have this impression, I look back and I think.
• 9:12
  you know, who was I then to allow these things to happen?
• 9:15
  And one of the things I'm so conscious of is how much of my capacity and my energy was leaking out all over the place.
• 9:23
  Do you have that same realization or a similar realization?
• 9:26
  Yeah.
• 9:26
  Yeah.
• 9:27
  Tell us about it.
• 9:27
  So, um, first of all, that was one of the most mind blowing things I learned from you.
• 9:33
  And it was that language of
• 9:36
  like leaking sexual energy i've never seen it that way and i've told a lot of my my friends it's like when if you think about like sexuality like you have x amount and you're letting it go to like oh i looked at that woman or i looked at porn or this that is all sexual energy leaking so number one you don't have it for your partner and you don't have energy creative energy for anything else um so once i can repeat the question because i
• 10:03
  I tracked myself.
• 10:04
  So when you look back at that period of time, I'll kind of rephrase the question.
• 10:07
  So when you look back at that period of time where you were leaking sexual energy and leaking capacity, as a father, I mean, I did this too as a father.
• 10:15
  I look back and I think, man, I was not giving my best to my kids.
• 10:20
  I wasn't giving my best to my wife.
• 10:22
  I wasn't really giving my best to myself.
• 10:23
  Do you have those same realizations?
• 10:26
  Yeah, I'd even say it was worse than that.
• 10:28
  I was smoking a lot of marijuana.
• 10:33
  I don't even think there was a level of awareness to even say like, I was, I, I, now I can say like my energy was just all over the place.
• 10:42
  It was not focused in any way.
• 10:44
  I was, I'd get angry if I was feeling angry at smoke.
• 10:48
  If I would, you know, once that was calm and that'd be all nice and playful and happy, but then, you know, you get the munchies and you want to eat or like you want to do something else or you get excited and you want to call the partner up.
• 10:58
  And it's like, there was, it was, there was no focus for anybody.
• 11:03
  And like, you know, that's how do you something which happened a few, it actually happened during the container and it was, it was really, really powerful.
• 11:10
  I was having a meal with my kids and my wife.
• 11:13
  And I wasn't expecting this to happen.
• 11:16
  And I broke down in tears in front of my kids.
• 11:18
  And I just apologized to both of them for the lack of attention that they received.
• 11:26
  Because I was so, I was stoned.
• 11:29
  Because I was smoking.
• 11:30
  And I said, like, you both needed me.
• 11:31
  And I wasn't there.
• 11:33
  And I wasn't present.
• 11:34
  And, like, my daughter ended up crying.
• 11:36
  And, like, it was a really, like...
• 11:38
  We hugged it out, but it was such a raw moment.
• 11:41
  And it happened during, actually, the 10-week program where these things were coming up where it was like really healing.
• 11:50
  And I hope it heals.
• 11:51
  I'll find out in a few years how healing it was for her or if it wasn't.
• 11:55
  But it was this incredible moment I actually acknowledged.
• 11:58
  And I took responsibility for that.
• 12:00
  that level of like just oblivion just not being present and saying like i wasn't there for you i wasn't contained i was angry i was in pain and i was just numbing at any way first alcohol it was alcohol first mostly it was mostly weed but it was whatever i could get my hands on
• 12:21
  sex and I was so unpresent, I was so uncontained and having all of this language now, it's like incredibly healing for my family to be able to see these changes, to have this understanding of everything that is shifting, because a lot changed but when you have words to really put to those changes and then it shifts the changes to something which is really understandable, like visible, like
• 12:49
  my like i today is a great day i feel good i feel happy i'm like excited to work i'm feeling you know
• 12:58
  Like the world is literally at my fingertips and I can do whatever I want.
• 13:03
  That wasn't the case 10 weeks ago, 11 weeks ago.
• 13:06
  It really wasn't like that.
• 13:07
  I was nervous.
• 13:08
  I was like, what do I do?
• 13:09
  How do I do this?
• 13:10
  And the container really helped shape today.
• 13:16
  Tomorrow might look a bit different, but right now on this call, it is worlds apart.
• 13:23
  That's so fantastic.
• 13:24
  I'm getting like full body chills listening to you over here.
• 13:27
  Um, so one of the questions I ask on the podcast is, was there a moment before you joined the container that you knew something had to change?
• 13:35
  Like what was the catalyst for you to join?
• 13:37
  Because joining the brotherhood is a leap of faith.
• 13:41
  Yeah.
• 13:42
  What was the thing that put you over that leap of faith that got you to take that leap of faith?
• 13:46
  Yeah.
• 13:47
  So I tell you what, it was, I was really excited about it.
• 13:50
  And I said, this seems amazing.
• 13:51
  And I told my wife about it.
• 13:53
  And then I actually had a hesitation.
• 13:55
  It was Friday afternoon, Friday afternoon in an Orthodox Church home.
• 13:58
  It's always like a tense time of the week.
• 14:01
  You're preparing for the Sabbath.
• 14:03
  And my wife said to me, like, is this really important to you?
• 14:06
  And I said, yeah.
• 14:07
  She's like, okay, so we'll make it work.
• 14:09
  And I just, I understood the importance of doing, of being a part of a container like this.
• 14:16
  It was, I would say, less of a leap of faith and more just this deep knowing that I could only grow and gain from this container.
• 14:26
  And it was like, okay, how do I make this work?
• 14:28
  Like, the hesitation was almost that thing I was saying, like,
• 14:35
  the fact that there was a hesitation was my push to do it because I knew it so deep inside of me that this was something that I had to be a part of.
• 14:43
  And again, seeing your, your posts on Instagram and just seeing the language that the, the, the things you were saying was just like, Oh, I've seen few coaches who are really speaking in this way.
• 14:56
  And I need to be a part of this.
• 14:57
  I need, I want to learn from Alex.
• 14:58
  I was like the way I saw it.
• 15:00
  I want to learn what Alex is teaching.
• 15:03
  Is it okay to share your wife's name?
• 15:05
  Yeah, Rachel.
• 15:06
  Rachel.
• 15:06
  So Rachel, if you listen to this podcast, thank you so much for supporting Moses, especially on Friday afternoons as an Orthodox Jewish family.
• 15:14
  Thank you so much.
• 15:15
  She deserves some credit there.
• 15:19
  My kids knew they can't disturb me.
• 15:20
  I'm going to be offline for the next two hours.
• 15:25
  I'm busy.
• 15:25
  Yeah.
• 15:27
  I'm so glad you had Rachel to like support you in that way.
• 15:30
  Do you want to say anything to her if she listens to this?
• 15:32
  Oh, I mean, she is.
• 15:34
  It's funny because when we first did the introductions on the online community, I actually said about her, I think she had a, I don't know, she had more, I wish I could quote it.
• 15:46
  It was like more sense than something, rather like, I still am so surprised that she decided to marry me because I was a mess.
• 15:57
  And, but she really had this foresight of like, no, you're, you're, you're a fantastic human and you're going to be an incredible human being.
• 16:04
  And I want to be a part of that.
• 16:06
  And she really is like the inspiration of my growth.
• 16:08
  Like, I don't think I would have been, I would be where I am without her.
• 16:12
  So I will definitely show this to her when it comes out.
• 16:14
  And I'm very excited for her to hear this.
• 16:17
  So relatable and so beautiful, Moses.
• 16:19
  Thank you.
• 16:19
  So let's talk about you getting into the brotherhood and, um.
• 16:24
  Yeah, like, just what comes top of mind?
• 16:27
  What's different for you now?
• 16:28
  You shared some, but, like, what would you say?
• 16:30
  It's been invigorating.
• 16:34
  Like, I...
• 16:38
  I was actually thinking about this earlier on.
• 16:40
  You've provided me with this toolbox.
• 16:43
  You don't always need a hammer, but the hammer's there when you need it.
• 16:46
  I don't always need the screwdriver, but I know, and I have all these different tools that I can pull on.
• 16:50
  Me and my wife have been doing containment.
• 16:53
  And...
• 16:55
  The daily ceremony.
• 16:57
  Yeah.
• 16:57
  We've been doing it before.
• 16:58
  We didn't do it daily.
• 16:58
  We did it like once or twice a week, but we got to a point that actually like we just do it on the, on the, on the, on the run.
• 17:05
  So like, if something comes up, like my love, what's coming, what's going on?
• 17:09
  Like, please share with me so I can understand, like it's something I need to change.
• 17:14
  It's something I need to address.
• 17:16
  And we got to this place where, you know, I've asked her like, you know, how are things, what can I change?
• 17:21
  She's like, you're doing amazing.
• 17:22
  Yeah.
• 17:23
  And then often if something comes up, which is really deep, and I'm like, but why haven't you told me this?
• 17:29
  Because it wasn't an issue.
• 17:30
  And right now it's an issue.
• 17:31
  And I need to share this with you.
• 17:32
  And I'm like, okay, fantastic.
• 17:33
  But that communication, that ability to know what she needs from me and how I can dedicate to her.
• 17:43
  the things that she needs for me that is it's been such a powerful tool um actually think one of the the i think one of the other things that you you explained just so powerful was the four types of of containment how you broke that up was phenomenal um i think it was active responsive um
• 18:04
  Self-containment and sexual containment.
• 18:07
  And that, breaking it up into those four different categories, is such a phenomenal, powerful way to understand containment.
• 18:17
  And that, that was really like something I, I, I appreciate it just to have that language.
• 18:23
  Like there's different forms of containment in different, different situations.
• 18:29
  Yeah, exactly.
• 18:30
  And you know, whether it's with my kids, whether it's, you know, and my, we have the quite a, uh, a different home, like my kids and my, from a previous marriage, they live with me full time.
• 18:41
  My wife is the bonus mom.
• 18:43
  Hmm.
• 18:43
  That can be, that's what we call it.
• 18:44
  It's funny because somebody else in the community says he's a bonus dad.
• 18:50
  And I was like, oh, that's awesome.
• 18:51
  So I was like, I'm so happy to see that language that it's catching on.
• 18:54
  Like my wife says like Disney movies ruined stepmoms.
• 18:58
  So we were looking for a way to like, how do we like upgrade the stepmom?
• 19:03
  And it was a bonus mom.
• 19:06
  And sometimes things get difficult.
• 19:08
  You know, I have a 16-year-old daughter and a 14-year-old son.
• 19:12
  There's a lot of feminine energy and a lot of different feminine energy.
• 19:16
  And feminine testing, let me tell you, is a thing.
• 19:21
  It's actually been one of the biggest challenges.
• 19:25
  I'd say it's like that moment where my daughter wants something from me, my wife wants something from me, and they're polar opposites.
• 19:34
  And how do you, how do you balance in that moment?
• 19:38
  How do you contain that?
• 19:41
  And it's been one of my biggest challenges.
• 19:43
  I'd say like throughout the container, it was like balancing and saying like, wait, my wife comes first, but I have a responsibility to, to my child and to educate her as well.
• 19:51
  And,
• 19:54
  It was like some of my darkest moments, I'd say in the 10 weeks.
• 19:56
  And I was like, why is this happening now?
• 19:58
  It was like, how do I deal with this?
• 20:00
  You know, how do I make sure my wife is happy?
• 20:03
  How do I make sure my daughter is happy and that I'm really giving them everything they need?
• 20:06
  And the testing from both sides was like something I've never experienced before.
• 20:11
  Maybe because there's so much more awareness to it.
• 20:14
  Dang.
• 20:15
  And it's funny because trying to explain this to men who are not in this container or even in this movement of healing, it's like, what do you mean?
• 20:25
  I'm like, oh, when you start working on your relationship, your wife is going to test you in ways you didn't think were possible.
• 20:32
  And you're really going to have to learn to hold it together and breathe into your masculine deep core, as you say.
• 20:39
  Yeah, breathing into your masculine core.
• 20:41
  I have an interesting question for you here, Moses, just because you're feeling this.
• 20:46
  And one of the things that, like you said, there's men who haven't done this work and they look at it from the outside.
• 20:53
  And one of the comments that I often get or one of the criticisms I often get is that,
• 20:59
  Um, if a man's holding containment, it's really just subjecting himself to abuse.
• 21:03
  And it sounds like you have kind of a different perspective on that.
• 21:06
  Like testing is real, but, but tell me what, how would you respond to that?
• 21:10
  So I think you, you, you actually taught me how to understand this.
• 21:14
  And I think you used the word when, when there's contempt.
• 21:19
  That is a problem.
• 21:20
  And like I actually, a few weeks ago, I was talking to my wife and she was really upset and she said something.
• 21:26
  I said, you know, I've never done this before and I think this is the moment.
• 21:30
  Like I need to put up a boundary.
• 21:32
  There is a certain line that you cross where I cannot speak to you in a respectful manner.
• 21:40
  I don't want to if you're speaking to me like that.
• 21:42
  I said, I'm going to take a few minutes.
• 21:45
  I said, but if we really want this relationship talk, there has to be a mutual respect.
• 21:49
  And I think, you know, I think you've said this to continue.
• 21:51
  If your wife is insulting you, if she's, you know, calling you names or even I think we had some situations where men were being hit.
• 22:01
  Like that is a big red line.
• 22:04
  Like that is no longer containment.
• 22:06
  That is abuse.
• 22:07
  But in a healthy relationship, there are always going to be fights.
• 22:12
  There's going to be arguments.
• 22:13
  And the question is, how do you manage it in the moment?
• 22:16
  I think there's a respectful way of doing that.
• 22:18
  And I am very, it's been challenging to really fully integrate this.
• 22:25
  But there is, most of the time, our wives are right.
• 22:29
  The intuition that they have.
• 22:30
  Like if they're upset,
• 22:33
  No shit.
• 22:34
  Like really, like my wife has a level of intuition.
• 22:37
  She's like, you know, I'm going to be right.
• 22:38
  Why?
• 22:39
  Why don't you just do it?
• 22:40
  Because I have to get there myself.
• 22:41
  I'm like, I know.
• 22:43
  And she, I'd say 99% of the time she's right.
• 22:48
  Sometimes I have a little bit of my own intuition, but she knows.
• 22:51
  And like, okay, so we're learning how to like, okay, when she's upset, she has to dial it down a bit.
• 22:57
  And sometimes I've really learned how to dial it down.
• 22:59
  Like in the beginning of a relationship, I broke one of my fingers because I punched the wall so hard.
• 23:05
  And, you know, not proud of it, but that's where I was.
• 23:08
  Yeah.
• 23:09
  My hands don't flinch when I'm upset.
• 23:12
  No, I don't, yeah, exactly, anymore.
• 23:15
  I sit there and I say, my wife is, she doesn't hate me.
• 23:17
  She's not attacking me.
• 23:19
  She's really upset.
• 23:20
  And this is not what I want my relationship to look like.
• 23:22
  Take a deep breath and figure out how do you make this better?
• 23:26
  Because this is not the place I want to be at.
• 23:29
  I want to know what happened when you set a boundary.
• 23:33
  She apologized.
• 23:34
  Really?
• 23:35
  Yeah.
• 23:36
  Okay, so share this with the men who are like...
• 23:39
  One of the comments I get on social media so often, Moses, this is such a so good.
• 23:43
  It's like so timely that you're sharing this right now because so many men equate holding containment with being abused.
• 23:51
  And I always tell them, look, you have to be able to set boundaries.
• 23:53
  And what they don't believe is that you can.
• 23:57
  And what I always tell them back is like when you set boundaries from a contained rational place, they're often immediately accepted or very quickly accepted.
• 24:06
  What happened for you?
• 24:07
  So I set up, I set this boundary, I explained it to my wife.
• 24:11
  We took time apart and she actually came and said like, I'm sorry.
• 24:15
  I didn't, that was a line I crossed.
• 24:17
  I didn't mean to like, to hurt you.
• 24:20
  And I, you know, I was so appreciated, appreciative of it.
• 24:25
  And then a few weeks before that, we had had a conversation where like, she heard on a podcast that this husband, this wife apologized to her husband.
• 24:32
  She, he was like, no, you don't have to apologize.
• 24:34
  Um,
• 24:35
  And I'm not sure I agree with that.
• 24:37
  I'm not saying a woman has to apologize, but when she feels a need to apologize, receive it.
• 24:41
  Yeah.
• 24:41
  And say thank you.
• 24:43
  And like, if it's, I think you nailed it when you say, if it's done with respect and it's done in a way where you're contained and,
• 24:51
  she will acknowledge and say, you know what, I'm sorry.
• 24:53
  And it happened and it's happened more than once.
• 24:55
  I think it's like at this point two or three times and it strengthens our relationship because she sees the boundary.
• 25:01
  She knows that I'm serious.
• 25:03
  So like, I want this to work, but I'm also, I also have a line that I have to draw.
• 25:08
  And that's like, you know, whether it's with my kids or whether it's like, whether it's with our families and saying like, you know,
• 25:15
  She's normally always right.
• 25:16
  And there are moments where I'm right as well.
• 25:18
  And again, everything boils down to that word respect and containment.
• 25:23
  To do something in containment respectfully, that's not abuse.
• 25:27
  And I think you said this in the beginning.
• 25:30
  When you learn to contain, it is incredibly empowering.
• 25:33
  You don't feel like...
• 25:34
  I was going to ask you about this.
• 25:35
  Okay.
• 25:36
  That is.
• 25:36
  Yeah.
• 25:36
  It's a chair.
• 25:36
  Yeah.
• 25:37
  it is the most empowering thing.
• 25:39
  Like, I feel like a fucking boss.
• 25:42
  Like, like, I can hold this shit together.
• 25:45
  And like, at first, it's like, this, I shared this with a few of the men that when I first started in containment work, the first few times, I was working with a different coach.
• 25:53
  And he, he taught me this idea.
• 25:55
  And I was like, how can you do this?
• 25:57
  I literally feel like I'm being punched in my stomach.
• 25:59
  It's so difficult.
• 26:01
  You know, you can't just expect my wife to like,
• 26:03
  literally dump everything on me.
• 26:06
  And it took a few months.
• 26:08
  And over time, we just got like, no way I can do this.
• 26:11
  I can do this and I can hold it.
• 26:12
  And yes, there are times where I get defensive and then I dial back and say, no, go take five minutes, take a few deep breaths.
• 26:20
  But it is one of the most empowering things you can do is sit in your relationship and let your wife
• 26:27
  unload it's like this is what i'm finding hard and you say like i've got you i'm here i'm here for you um i'm going to support you through it it's going to be okay um it is it is a it is a wonderful wonderful thing to experience as a man as a partner
• 26:43
  And, you know, now I'm learning it.
• 26:44
  How do I do that with my kids?
• 26:45
  You know, how do I, because sometimes that can be almost as triggering.
• 26:51
  Yeah.
• 26:51
  It's a different type of trigger.
• 26:54
  And how do I contain myself so I don't get upset?
• 26:57
  Like somebody called me up yesterday and said like, you know, your son, my kids are a ways.
• 27:01
  My cousin called me up.
• 27:02
  He's like, your son is like,
• 27:04
  he was really, really rude to my daughter.
• 27:07
  I'm like, thank you for letting me.
• 27:08
  He's like, but don't tell him off.
• 27:09
  I said, no, that's not how I function.
• 27:12
  Like if my son's behaving that way, I need to understand what's going on with him.
• 27:15
  And I called him up and I said, what's up?
• 27:18
  I said, what's going on?
• 27:18
  He's like, you know, I know what I did was wrong.
• 27:21
  I said, okay, do you know why?
• 27:23
  Maybe I'm oversharing this, but I think you'll forgive me.
• 27:26
  I said, you know, you don't have a relationship with your mom.
• 27:30
  And like when a woman rejects you, I'm pretty sure it triggers that in you.
• 27:35
  And he was like, oh, that makes sense.
• 27:41
  And he's 14 and I'm really teaching him all of these techniques.
• 27:45
  What a lucky kid, holy cow.
• 27:47
  I said, you're not having a girlfriend until you know how to contain?
• 27:49
  And actually I told him I'm buying a cold plunge and he's like, you know, he says, daddy, I'm dialing in this next few months.
• 27:56
  I'm going to cold plunge with you every morning.
• 27:58
  I'm like, okay, let's do this.
• 28:01
  But I think we're raising the next generation of,
• 28:04
  of masculine men.
• 28:07
  It's funny because I recently had like, we shouldn't say healthy masculine.
• 28:11
  Masculine is healthy.
• 28:13
  100%.
• 28:13
  Patriarchy is the unhealthy side of the masculine masculinity.
• 28:17
  And there's toxicity that is unhealthy.
• 28:18
  Masculinity is as healthy as it can be.
• 28:20
  It's a beautiful thing.
• 28:21
  It's the most healthy state for a man.
• 28:22
  Yeah.
• 28:23
  So masculine is like, I want him to be a masculine man.
• 28:26
  A man who knows how to lead, how to contain.
• 28:31
  It's the best way to teach this is to live it, is to really...
• 28:37
  feel and learn all of these lessons for ourselves and then I can share them and then I'm not sharing them it's just osmosis he's seeing it in action it's the best way to teach anything is demonstrating it especially with kids because you know kids are always going to do what you do not what you not necessarily what you say
• 28:57
  Yes.
• 28:58
  Yeah.
• 28:59
  I mean, I feel like the biggest challenge with my daughter, like really for her to see, like I wanted to marry a man who's contained.
• 29:05
  I don't want to marry.
• 29:08
  I always share with men, be the man you want your daughter to marry because that's what's going to happen anyway.
• 29:13
  Yeah.
• 29:13
  It's been a big, that's been a big one for me.
• 29:15
  Like just remembering that, like,
• 29:18
  I don't want somebody looking at my daughter in a way that I shouldn't look at a woman in a way that I wouldn't want a man to look at my daughter.
• 29:24
  I want to behave in a way that I want my daughter to say, oh, I want a man like my dad.
• 29:27
  I hope she says that one day.
• 29:29
  And that would be like the ultimate, like, I did it.
• 29:35
  Okay, there's something I want to get back to now.
• 29:38
  So you brought this up and...
• 29:41
  Honestly, Moses, in the first container where I only had three guys last year, this, I mean, I had doubts about teaching this.
• 29:51
  I had doubts about having the conversation.
• 29:52
  But there was a day where I, like, was getting on the call with him and I was like, Alex, you just got to take the leap and share rational self-pleasure because it changed my life.
• 30:00
  You know, it's something that we don't talk about as men.
• 30:02
  Um, it's something we don't talk about as people.
• 30:05
  Like, you know, any type of self-pleasure or masturbation is this thing that's like hidden and scary and, you know, it's shameful and we don't talk about it.
• 30:13
  You shouldn't do it.
• 30:15
  And then years ago, someone taught me rational self-pleasure.
• 30:19
  Like it was the hardest discipline I've ever learned.
• 30:22
  I felt, my God, for, for months, I felt shame.
• 30:26
  I didn't feel pleasure.
• 30:27
  I felt challenged by it.
• 30:29
  Um.
• 30:30
  But then I started teaching it to men.
• 30:31
  And I can't tell you how many men have come back to me and said, you know, the biggest thing I learned was rational self-pleasure.
• 30:36
  It's changed my life.
• 30:37
  And you and I, before we hit record, were having a conversation.
• 30:40
  Then you brought it up.
• 30:41
  Can you just share a little bit about what that discipline has done for you?
• 30:45
  So at first I was incredibly resistant to it.
• 30:48
  Yeah, me too.
• 30:49
  I was like, what is this?
• 30:51
  How do I, like, I understood the logic and like the real, the genius behind it.
• 30:56
  But I was like, one second.
• 30:57
  Yeah.
• 30:59
  how even from like religious perspective, like what, like this is not, like I said, not something we talk about, not something we're taught.
• 31:06
  It's, it's very foreign.
• 31:07
  Like, um, I think you, you talked about it when you were explaining it.
• 31:12
  It's like, you know, we're used to like, you, you want to, you want to release, you know, and that that gets, you build up the energy, you like go over the energy, that's it, it's over.
• 31:23
  And even, even at this stage, it's still difficult because, um,
• 31:29
  I'm very, I'd say, like, touch is my strongest sense.
• 31:35
  So, like, not having the same level of touch as when you're with a woman, it's a challenge.
• 31:40
  And, like, really learning to soften into, like, okay, like, let's do this gradually.
• 31:47
  But, like, this idea of sexual energetic expansion, like, we're used to, like, sexual energy needs to be, like, contained, but, like,
• 31:56
  It's like the one thing probably we shouldn't contain.
• 31:58
  Yeah, suppressed.
• 31:59
  Suppressed, not contained.
• 32:00
  Suppressed, yeah.
• 32:01
  I think in the world we're taught, I mean, I know, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but for me, I was taught suppress and repress sexual energy.
• 32:09
  Like, you know, objectify women, do all the things that men do, but then like shove it all down and hide it, you know, and like put it in a place where nobody can see.
• 32:19
  So I didn't mean to cut you off, but I just.
• 32:21
  I agree.
• 32:21
  Thank you for that, for that correction.
• 32:23
  um it really is like suppressive or like but i never let it grow beyond and you know over the years i've read how like you know our sexual energy is a life force energy and the minute you understand that i don't want to repress my life force energy and it happens to me in my my in my youth i was incredibly ashamed because i was shamed
• 32:49
  Right.
• 32:50
  I didn't have a very healthy relationship with sex.
• 32:54
  I actually was like a late bloomer, call it.
• 32:56
  All my friends were like masturbating and I was like still not there yet.
• 33:00
  And, and then I remember it was like, oh my God, what is this?
• 33:03
  And like, you, you get excited and you don't even know what to do with that energy.
• 33:07
  And having all of a sudden that understanding that actually this is something you can learn not just to contain, but to really to expand in a healthy way.
• 33:19
  And how do you do that?
• 33:21
  I don't think there is another way except for rational self-pleasure.
• 33:26
  It's that letting it build and breathing into it and holding it.
• 33:32
  And I think myself and many other men, your sex life gets a lot better.
• 33:39
  there's no doubt about it I'm laughing because my sex life changed completely I'm sorry no you shared it I get it once you understand it oh shit this is how this is how you do it and it's not something again I had this religious aspect can I do this what does this even mean and it's actually it's an incredible discipline and level of self respect when you do this properly and you really introduced it in that way
• 34:07
  you know, don't start visualizing, don't use any sort of pornography or like this is a very pure moment with yourself where it's just you and it's not dirty, it's not disrespectful, it's not shameful, it's actually very beautiful and I can allow that energy to rise and it really is my life force energy and feel it and know where it comes from and then like I haven't seen my energy source is sacral
• 34:36
  That's it.
• 34:37
  If I don't learn how to manage that, not even manage how to hold that energy, then I can't really take advantage of that life force energy.
• 34:47
  And we can call it sexual energy, but if you think about it as a life force energy, which is actually I create with that energy,
• 34:53
  then why wouldn't I want to be able to learn more about it?
• 34:56
  Why wouldn't I want to learn to use it, to become one with it?
• 35:01
  Really, it sounds like something out of Star Wars or something.
• 35:05
  No, it's true.
• 35:07
  It sounds otherworldly because nobody does this, but once you do, it feels otherworldly.
• 35:13
  Yeah.
• 35:14
  It's a great moment.
• 35:15
  It's like, I almost feel like giddy afterwards.
• 35:17
  Yeah.
• 35:17
  Like I connected with myself.
• 35:19
  Like I feel at peace with it.
• 35:21
  There isn't like, there is no shame.
• 35:23
  Like my wife even jokes about it with me now.
• 35:25
  She's like, so how is rational self-pleasure?
• 35:27
  Like, thank you.
• 35:33
  You know, it's funny because it's so uncommon for that to be part of a marriage dialogue.
• 35:40
  But when you really think about it, isn't that just healthy?
• 35:43
  Yeah, I mean, we're having a conversation the other day and I was thinking, do other people talk to their wives like this?
• 35:48
  Like, it wasn't rude.
• 35:49
  It was just so fun and like best friends, but yet she's my sexual partner and my best friend and my wife.
• 35:56
  And this is what I want other people's relationships to sound like.
• 36:00
  Like, yeah, I want my wife to ask me, how is that aspect of your life?
• 36:05
  Because at the end of the day, it influences our relationship directly.
• 36:08
  And like having that openness.
• 36:10
  And I actually think that a big part of the container has been sharing all of these things.
• 36:15
  Is having that openness and communication.
• 36:17
  And it's been great.
• 36:19
  So I'm curious.
• 36:21
  If we were to ask Rachel what's changed about you from 10 weeks ago to now, what would she tell us, Moses?
• 36:30
  I think...
• 36:32
  I wish I could like dial her in and say, hey, Rich, what would you say?
• 36:37
  What's your impression of what she might tell us?
• 36:42
  I mean, I can see from our relationship, we're just having more fun.
• 36:48
  Like we went on a, we went on a, we were just in Peru and she, we were hiking and she tells me, I just learned a big lesson about our relationship.
• 36:54
  Whenever something's hard, I blame you.
• 36:59
  It's like, thank you.
• 37:00
  She's like, I'm doing this hike.
• 37:01
  And I'm like, it's all your fault and you haven't done anything.
• 37:03
  But like, now I know that.
• 37:06
  She knows, she can see how more on top of things, like I'm taking active leadership.
• 37:13
  Like she doesn't have to be, um, I heard another coach saying, she knows that she doesn't have to be in hypervigilance or on top of everything.
• 37:21
  She knows that I've got it.
• 37:22
  And like, it's taken many months of work, but I, this container really solidified like the foundation of these things that I was working on because you gave it so much language.
• 37:33
  And I, I think she'd just say how like, I'm, I'm growing into this real leader and
• 37:40
  And I think, you know, one of the difficult things, like you've got people saying like, I'm making a million dollars and I'm doing this.
• 37:45
  I'm like, I'm not there yet.
• 37:46
  When is it happening?
• 37:47
  But I feel it, I feel it coming.
• 37:50
  Like I'm really, I'm building this strong foundation and things are just like growing and growing and growing.
• 37:56
  So you're sharing something that comes up in the container kind of often is that men start like commenting on how much more success they're feeling or how much more successful they're feeling or how much more actual real success they're creating.
• 38:10
  What has that been like for you?
• 38:13
  So a lot of my journey has been removing myself from my biggest blocker.
• 38:21
  I doubt myself.
• 38:22
  And it comes from a lot of like, you know, childhood trauma.
• 38:29
  And, you know, I got to this point this week, I was like, instead of doubt, have confidence.
• 38:35
  Yeah.
• 38:38
  And this is something which I feel it.
• 38:42
  And I know once I get to that point where I stop doubting myself and I'm being more confident, it's not a question of when, it's a question of how.
• 38:50
  Like how much success am I going to see?
• 38:52
  Yeah.
• 38:53
  And I feel like even having this podcast, like this for me is a success.
• 38:59
  Like I don't have to necessarily see it in a monetary value.
• 39:03
  Being on this podcast with you and having this conversation is a success.
• 39:07
  It's something incredibly powerful that came out from the container.
• 39:10
  And there's a lot of those things happening.
• 39:12
  You know, like last week, some CEO reached out to me and we had a conversation and he was like so grateful for the conversation.
• 39:18
  He's got a billion dollar company, the first B Corp. And I was just like,
• 39:23
  I was one on the call with him.
• 39:24
  That was me.
• 39:26
  Like, it wasn't someone else.
• 39:28
  It was me.
• 39:30
  And I was like, okay.
• 39:32
  And like things like that are happening.
• 39:34
  And, you know, we often measure success in monetary value, but I actually don't necessarily, I don't like seeing that.
• 39:40
  Like that's like, I think a byproduct of it, actually.
• 39:44
  Success is how well am I doing in my life?
• 39:46
  And money will come.
• 39:47
  Like it's an energetic transfer.
• 39:48
  Yeah.
• 39:49
  Like I really see money as an energy and energy is going to come when it needs to come.
• 39:53
  Um, so overall I'm seeing like a lot of success, I'd say.
• 39:57
  That's my home, my, my relationship.
• 39:59
  Like I'm doing things I never thought I'd do.
• 40:02
  And like, I'm slowly getting over those fearful moments.
• 40:05
  Like I was climbing mountains and like there was moments where I was like, I actually climbed a mountain, got to the top.
• 40:09
  My wife was like, let's dance to the top of the mountain.
• 40:12
  And I started bawling my eyes out.
• 40:14
  He's like, what's up?
• 40:15
  I'm like, my inner child is like, why did you do this to me?
• 40:17
  That was so scary.
• 40:18
  Yeah.
• 40:21
  It's like, I've got you.
• 40:22
  Like, my body knows exactly what it's saying.
• 40:24
  Every step of the way, I actually knew what I was saying.
• 40:26
  Just trust your body.
• 40:27
  And that's what I learned.
• 40:29
  Like, your child is saying, I go, but I'm so scared.
• 40:30
  I'm like, no, trust.
• 40:32
  Trust in yourself.
• 40:32
  You've got this.
• 40:33
  And it was a really powerful lesson for me.
• 40:36
  And that's, again, here, it's like, trust yourself.
• 40:38
  Don't be scared.
• 40:38
  You've got this.
• 40:41
  Good, Moses.
• 40:42
  Thank you.
• 40:42
  I want to ask you a couple of questions to kind of wrap up and bring us to a close.
• 40:52
  What do you trust about yourself now?
• 40:54
  Like you're saying trust and you've said it several times.
• 40:56
  What do you trust about yourself now that you didn't before?
• 41:01
  Doubted everything I wanted to do.
• 41:03
  I didn't, like, I'm very, I have a, I actually don't know if you've ever looked at human design.
• 41:12
  Like my decisions come from like my gut.
• 41:15
  I was very, I never trusted my God.
• 41:19
  I was like, I get that visceral yes.
• 41:21
  And I was like, no, I'm going to do the opposite.
• 41:23
  And I was like, no, trust.
• 41:25
  And there's a level of like knowing.
• 41:27
  And I'm really trusting that knowing that when I want to do something,
• 41:31
  And I, I know it's coming.
• 41:33
  Like, I know it's, that's what I'm, what I'm feeling is I just do it.
• 41:36
  Don't be scared.
• 41:38
  You know, go for it.
• 41:41
  And that also feels good.
• 41:43
  Like just being in touch with yourself.
• 41:45
  Yeah.
• 41:46
  Being in touch with yourself and sensitive enough to know when you're, when you, when you, when you know, it's actually, it's knowing when you know something, like trusting that.
• 41:56
  Yeah.
• 41:58
  So good.
• 41:59
  I think so many, just to, for the men who are listening are like, how do you do that?
• 42:03
  You know, I think so often as men, we've learned to live in our heads because our body wasn't safe.
• 42:09
  And when we start getting down into the body and when we start really feeling the body, it changes everything.
• 42:15
  I just recorded a podcast on three practices you can use to get into your body.
• 42:20
  They're simple.
• 42:21
  And that was something you said, Moses, maybe you can speak to it.
• 42:24
  You know, when we were not recording, which is, which was such a good conversation, you said something that I share with men all the time and I'd love for you to share with the listeners.
• 42:33
  Yeah.
• 42:34
  Like the basics, the simple things are the things that really make the biggest difference.
• 42:38
  And I think in this world of biohacking and spending money and peptides and red light and saunas and like, you know, I do a lot of that stuff.
• 42:45
  But if I'm not meeting the basics, I'm not okay.
• 42:49
  So like, can you share a little bit about that?
• 42:52
  Drinking water.
• 42:53
  Water regularly is like...
• 42:56
  I mean, don't starve your body from the thing it needs most.
• 43:00
  Just give yourself water.
• 43:02
  The walking.
• 43:04
  I don't do it every day, but I do it very often.
• 43:07
  And time in neutral.
• 43:09
  I've told so many people about this.
• 43:12
  I told the client, I told him, he's like, I get to the office.
• 43:15
  I'm so overwhelmed.
• 43:16
  I'm like, okay, I'm going to teach you this incredible thing.
• 43:18
  Buy yourself an eye mask.
• 43:20
  The minute you get to the office, put the eye mask on, put a timer for 10 minutes on your phone and just sit.
• 43:26
  There it is.
• 43:27
  Yeah.
• 43:28
  I bought myself a really nice eye mask and that's it.
• 43:30
  Just sit there.
• 43:31
  I do it with my son whenever he's feeling a warm.
• 43:33
  I'm going to put your timer, lie in your bed.
• 43:35
  And he's like, can I carry on doing this for longer?
• 43:39
  It's just such a, it's such a straightforward, like I think you said this in one of the, it was one of the last container sessions we had.
• 43:47
  It was around high impact, what was it?
• 43:52
  It was like low
• 43:55
  low something high impact i'm trying to go with like you could or maybe the way you phrase it is like how do you um you don't want to you don't want to be one of those coaches it gives you all these complex things to do yeah give give you like very simple steps yeah yeah simplicity is key um and i feel like that's something which is so powerful like walking time in neutral and drinking water start with that
• 44:20
  Before anything complex, start with that and then work into containment.
• 44:26
  Figure out how do I work on sexual leakage, like energetic leakage.
• 44:31
  How do I contain every aspect of myself and don't overcomplicate it.
• 44:38
  It starts with the small steps.
• 44:39
  Like I literally, there's a famous, I think it's a college speech, this general gives like doing your bed in the morning.
• 44:48
  Like that's a win.
• 44:48
  Folding your pajamas.
• 44:49
  Like, like that's an easy win.
• 44:51
  You know, you've done it.
• 44:52
  They're going to be there when you get back in the evening, folded and ready for you.
• 44:56
  Like there's little things you can do that make our life so much better.
• 44:59
  And I feel like that's something you, I mean, I was looking at the notes.
• 45:02
  It's the first thing you started with.
• 45:04
  It was just those three things.
• 45:06
  And it doesn't change.
• 45:07
  Once you have a strong foundation, you just keep building.
• 45:11
  Pretty sure if you're listening and you go to the podcast, it's either the one right before Moses or right after Moses, where I explain those three in like a lot of detail because they sound simple.
• 45:22
  But when you understand the science behind them, it really is life changing.
• 45:25
  Moses, last question.
• 45:27
  Okay.
• 45:27
  I don't want this to end.
• 45:31
  I totally hear you.
• 45:32
  Same here.
• 45:33
  Okay.
• 45:35
  If there's a man out there who's considering joining the Brotherhood and, you know, committing himself to this martial art like discipline, or actually, let's just call it this martial art of masculine containment.
• 45:47
  What would you say to him?
• 45:50
  Don't think about it twice.
• 45:53
  Just do it.
• 45:55
  The changes are so obvious.
• 46:01
  It only makes your life better.
• 46:03
  And for anybody who's doubting and hating, you must really hate yourself.
• 46:09
  Or be in a really bad place.
• 46:11
  Yeah, and then that's the sign for you to do this.
• 46:15
  like just do it like there's there's it's it's funny it's a small investment to pay for a huge huge change in your life like it's really not it's not a lot of money to pay to do something like this to gain so much you like it's it changes your life and if you want to change your life do this like it's it's it's obvious like it shouldn't be it shouldn't there shouldn't be a hesitation
• 46:41
  Thank you so much, brother.
• 46:42
  Thank you.
• 46:44
  My pleasure.
• 46:45
  My pleasure.
• 46:46
  It was so great having you in the brotherhood.
• 46:49
  And for anyone listening, if you're a man who is interested in doing this work and experiencing some of these changes and putting some of these very basic but very life-changing practices into your life in a container with other men from around the world, from different religions, from all different walks of life, go to thebrotherhoodsociety.com and sign up for our interviews.
• 47:09
  They actually started today, this morning, so by the time this podcast is released, they'll be out for about a week.
• 47:15
  and I'd love to meet you on an interview, and it would be my honor to walk this path with you.
• 47:20
  It is absolutely the most important thing I've ever done in my life, and I'd love to show you how to be more contained and how to get more capacity and get everything that you want out of your life.
• 47:31
  Moses, I appreciate you.
• 47:32
  Oh, man.
• 47:32
  You're crazy, man.
• 47:33
  Thank you.
• 47:34
  Appreciate you, too.