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Toby Hadoke Interview - The Magic of Doctor Who · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife and do it quicker.
• 0:39
  Quicker, Quicker. Welcome back to A Hamster with a
• 0:42
  Blunt Pen Knife, the Toby Hadoke Interview podcast.
• 0:48
  Hello, Toby. Hello.
• 0:50
  We've reached 11:00. We started at 7:00.
• 0:54
  Well, I don't give short answers.
• 0:56
  I'm terribly sorry. I tend to wander off in all
• 1:00
  sorts of different directions. I apologize.
• 1:04
  That's why I'm a patron to your podcast.
• 1:06
  You know, for that very reason he can segue.
• 1:12
  Well, part three is essentially gonna be a small inquisition.
• 1:18
  From members of the Hamster audience asking questions mostly
• 1:23
  about your later work. Some books, quater, mass
• 1:28
  documentaries, podcasting, yeah. I am going to start with a
• 1:34
  question from a gentleman of the name of Chris Chapman.
• 1:40
  Oh, him? Yeah.
• 1:42
  I believe you may know, yes. I've bumped into him every now
• 1:46
  and again. What Chris would like to know is
• 1:49
  what's the craziest thing I've made Toby do?
• 1:55
  Oh, I think jump off a 18 foot tower.
• 1:58
  I think for Haydo versus Havoc. You know, we could have just
• 2:05
  interviewed all the old stuntmen.
• 2:07
  That would have been nice. But Chris, Chris thought, well,
• 2:11
  that, you know, that's why he's a very good documentary maker.
• 2:14
  I mean I, I, I, you know I think I I would be naturally cautious
• 2:19
  about I'm a bit boring and I I I'm naturally against anything
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  that sort of tries to to dress stuff up beyond you know the
• 2:30
  parlaying of facts and and people.
• 2:33
  I don't think. You know I always used to get
• 2:34
  annoyed with this week the politics show on the BBC where
• 2:37
  they'd have to go and we shall do this piece on the fiscal
• 2:42
  disharmony in the European Union with political correspondent
• 2:45
  Mark Mardell dressed as a rabbit.
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  You know you go I'm fucking grown up and it's 11:00 but.
• 2:51
  So I I would be quite happy to have just interviewed the Havoc
• 2:54
  stuntmen. But of course it's a good it's a
• 2:57
  great film because you have Royce Scammell flying in on the
• 2:59
  plane. He's very ambitious Chris.
• 3:02
  He always he always tries to make it interesting and he and
• 3:06
  he shoot and he gets the stuff shot really well.
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  He uses excellent camera people, those.
• 3:11
  Drone shots he gets of, yeah. And he uses very good quality
• 3:15
  equipment. His stuff always looks great.
• 3:18
  And those on the BFI screen, Toby.
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  And it was extraordinary. Yeah.
• 3:23
  Although, I have to say, I think you'll be able to date Doctor
• 3:25
  Who documentaries from the 20 tens, early twenty 20s in the
• 3:31
  same way that you can date Doc two stories from the 70s by the
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  Sideburns and the flares and the Kipper ties by the by the drone
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  shots. You know, you go, yes, they just
• 3:39
  got access to a drone, had they? But I mean.
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  I'm just pleased these documentaries have been made at
• 3:45
  all. You know we are so lucky.
• 3:47
  Well you know, I mean if again I, I, I, I fret sometimes that
• 3:54
  it looks like, you know I'm part of some sort of gang and if and
• 4:00
  if sort of cornered, cornered the market tier because I've you
• 4:03
  know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm part of some sort of secret coven.
• 4:09
  Every time I think I'm finished on the Doctor Who range because
• 4:14
  the person that used to employ me has moved on somebody else
• 4:18
  has employed. So Chris, I didn't know Chris
• 4:19
  from Adam and I met Chris. Chris lived in Newcastle at the
• 4:24
  time and he'd come to London, I think, to meet Dan Hall about
• 4:26
  something and we met for a cup of tea and it was about the time
• 4:32
  he just made his Ambassadors of Death documentary.
• 4:37
  And I was a bit pissed off to discover that he concentrated it
• 4:41
  on the stunt people. Because we'd just done the
• 4:44
  commentary and I'd had the bright idea saying, well, why
• 4:47
  don't we get the stunt people in for a couple of the episodes and
• 4:50
  nobody has spoken to anybody. And that's what used to really
• 4:53
  frustrate me about the range. That's And somebody put on one
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  of the forums. Well, I listened to the
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  commentary episodes 2:00 and 3:00 and then watched the
• 5:00
  documentary and it was the same people talking about the same
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  stuff. And it was like, that is a
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  reasonable complaint. I mean, with Ambassadors, with
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  seven episodes, we still did get quite a few people on the
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  commentary, but it was a bit, why is the right hand not
• 5:13
  talking to the left here? But anyway, I was always pissed
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  off about something in those days and we we we met for a cup
• 5:23
  of tea and he seemed like a nice chap and then but I can't
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  remember how we started working I think and I'd because the
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  first thing we did was looking for Peter wasn't it?
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  And I I pitched that that was an idea of of of mine but before
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  Chris had been on it there'd been a couple of other producers
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  who were who were who I sort of knew who or people who wanted to
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  who who were pitching stuff to the range and and we've been
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  given a list of what was coming up and you know any any ideas
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  for this And and I was thinking what can we do for the sense
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  rights. And I I suddenly had a moment of
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  you know light bulb of doing a kind of who do you think you are
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  but for Peter R Newman and Mervyn Pinfield because it was
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  the only combo I think where the writer and the director were
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  both dead or presumed dead before Doctor Who found them had
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  emerged. So it was a story where the two
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  key players really behind the scenes we knew nothing about
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  really and and so that's it and and that had caught the eye of
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  these these other two other guys I'd run it by but then but then
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  something happened and Dan decided he only wanted to use
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  Chris and I think Ed straddling so and I can't remember then how
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  it happened but I think Chris had maybe asked me for some idea
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  so I went back to the the other two guys and said look it looks
• 6:43
  like Chris is doing the sense right.
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  So can I take that idea to him? And they were like, yeah, yeah,
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  of course, mate, you know, so I suggested it to Chris because
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  that seemed to be the one that just seemed like a good idea
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  that seemed to fit. And it was Chris's idea then to
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  go well, we do know a bit about Mervyn Pinfield and and it would
• 7:00
  be better if it was condensed just to the to the one guy.
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  And so he, he then made it looking for just Peter solely
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  and then you know the rest is history And and we made that.
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  So that's that was the first thing that we made together.
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  But I seem to recall we did Haydot versus Havoc not long
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  after and that was that was his idea.
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  He pitched that. So then he started to to use me
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  and then you know, the DVD range came to an end and I thought,
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  well, that's that then that's it.
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  And then Blu Rays started to come out and then suddenly you
• 7:41
  mop up a few commentaries. Oh, that's nice.
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  So. Oh, no.
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  Because I was doing a few commentaries on the on the
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  animated ones. So little bits of Bob's
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  dribbling then and then you do that and then Chris is making
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  documentaries for the Blu-ray and then suddenly you're on and
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  and yeah, it's but every, every time.
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  I think it's the last one. You know it's it's not like it's
• 8:01
  this sort of constant stream or this constant momentum.
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  And I I'm waiting. I always wait for them to ask
• 8:06
  somebody else. But anyway, so yes, so Chris has
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  asked me to do quite a lot of things.
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  But I don't think anything's been as mad as as I mean, I
• 8:17
  think the cookbook was a silly idea, but it was, it was my
• 8:19
  idea. We we just, we just, I mean I
• 8:22
  come up, I come up with that idea on camera in the Matthew
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  Waterhouse documentary. And then when we were driving
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  away from that or or between locations, Chris said, what
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  about this cookbook idea? And I was like, yeah, this is
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  never going to happen, but I sort of indulged him because
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  Chris, Chris can get quite focused when he's when he hones
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  in on something, you know, that's what makes him a good
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  filmmaker. He can sort of brought
• 8:45
  everything else out and gets. And I just thought, yeah, OK,
• 8:48
  but this isn't going to happen. These, they're going to tell it
• 8:50
  to piss off, You know, he's going to pitch this and they're
• 8:52
  going to get this ridiculous idea because I pitched it as a
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  joke and then we made it and we run an RTS award for it.
• 9:01
  I mean, it might be the feature I've rewatched the most.
• 9:06
  Certainly not to make that absurd cheesecake that Nicola
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  Bryant made. That sounded awful.
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  Yeah, well, and also that wasn't in the spirit of the
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  documentary. We wanted to make stuff from the
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  cookbook. But although it was quite nice
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  that Nicola and I have the same fridge and it was lovely,
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  actually, I stayed it because I was, I was digging after the
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  night, night before. And Nicola, bless her, she's so
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  sweet. She's she's very nice.
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  She she said why don't you come to us after the gig?
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  So I actually stayed the night there.
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  I stayed at Nicholas' house to be up fresh in the morning to
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  make the documentary. So that was lovely.
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  She's got a beautiful house. She's got a great eye.
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  Beautifully, beautifully done. Out house Nicholas I've.
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  Got to say, you said earlier, I don't want to keep asking me.
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  You know, I can tell you why. It's because when I started that
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  looking for Peter. Document.
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  And I was like, they're not going to find anything on this
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  guy. Like everything's been
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  researched. Andrew Pixley never all had to
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  go, all of them. And as soon as I heard your
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  voice at the beginning of that, I was like, Oh yeah, we're in
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  good hands there. You're fine.
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  I I actually, I didn't do the research for that.
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  I wasn't allowed to. That's all credit to that goes
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  to Richard, Big Bill because the whole thing was that I
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  discovered pretty much everything on on camera.
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  I, you know, Chris told me. I mean a week before we didn't
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  have a show. A week before Chris said we've
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  not we've not found anything we've drawn a blank.
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  And so I emailed Richard Bingle about something else and said oh
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  shame you didn't come up chance with Peter on Newman.
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  That would have been great. And he went, I'm just got one
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  more thing to try and then we were on, but it was really touch
• 10:47
  and go look, we. Tried bread crumbs, wasn't it
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  was faster. Yeah, but I didn't do.
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  I have done original research since and I have found out stuff
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  that we only know because I found it.
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  And I'm, you know, I'm pleased about that.
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  So I yeah. I I, you know, I, I, I, I I can
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  research. But I'm not in the same league
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  as as as Richard and and some others who have done done some
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  great work. It's certainly on on that show.
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  That was that was that was all Richard's research.
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  He he, he he laid the bread crumbs and I I picked up behind
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  him. But we genuinely found out
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  something. What I love about that is that
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  we found out something when that documentary was released we were
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  telling everybody that bought it something they didn't know.
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  You know quite often you watch a documentary you go oh, I know
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  that anecdote. I know that.
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  I generally know that this was a fraught production or where this
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  was filmed or this was the one where this went wrong or that
• 11:42
  they filmed it at that location that nobody knew at the
• 11:47
  beginning of that documentary what they knew by the end of it.
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  And I'm really happy, really pleased with that and of course
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  and nobody coming to it now will have that because of course
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  immediately some somebody goes and updates Wikipedia with
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  everything that somebody else has found out.
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  So you know the the lustre is taken from it.
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  But for that, for that, for that moment it, you know it stood, it
• 12:06
  stood as as something that I as a as a consumer had I not had
• 12:10
  any involvement with at all. Had I bought the Sensor X DVD
• 12:12
  and that documentary been on with that information on it, I
• 12:15
  would have been over the moon because it's like, oh brilliant,
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  they found the thing. And that's what I always try to
• 12:20
  have. Would I want to take facts
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  aside, The fact that I have to watch myself in it and the fact
• 12:27
  that I'm my ties poking out of my waistcoat there, the shoes
• 12:32
  looking shit, oh, I'm looking fat on that shirt or I wish I'd
• 12:35
  had a proper haircut. Or why is my tshirt dangling out
• 12:37
  the bagger? Oh God.
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  And and and then also somebody will point that out on Facebook
• 12:42
  as well. You don't have to.
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  And so I ensure mind this and but that.
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  Yeah that that that that. I think we yeah I always, I I
• 12:57
  always think if if it's telling if if if it's if it's a
• 13:00
  documentary that I would be really happy to watch.
• 13:06
  You know I'm I'm very very happy I'm afraid I can't say that
• 13:09
  about the cookbook. I'm delighted that people like
• 13:12
  it, but it it doesn't tell you anything about Doctor Who.
• 13:20
  It doesn't even tell you anything about the history of
• 13:22
  the curb. Food is absolutely hilarious.
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  Is this and and plus you interact.
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  With them all so wonderfully as well.
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  I love it. I love it.
• 13:34
  Oh I'm not just I'm not disparaging them and I'm it's
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  obviously you know it's it's I'm absolutely delighted by the
• 13:41
  feedback that it's had and it's it's you know people have really
• 13:43
  really enjoyed it but I'm I'm I'm I'm baffled it got made and
• 13:51
  I'm I'm delighted that people like it but.
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  I'm prepared to risk your bafflement for my enjoyment.
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  Alright, actually the one, I'll tell you, the one that was the
• 14:02
  most educational for me. I mean the picture on the one
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  was absolutely, but it was the David Whitaker one where I just,
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  I feel like that information was there.
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  And I just never went looking. And so to have all that
• 14:17
  assembled and that story told, that is probably the most
• 14:22
  valuable one I've watched. I'll always be fondest of the
• 14:26
  Peter on Human one, because it was the 1st and because he was a
• 14:28
  genuine mystery. But I think they've all been,
• 14:33
  they've all been legitimate. The Whitaker one I was
• 14:36
  surprised. I thought we would the were the
• 14:40
  were obscure figures who deserved a look that I thought
• 14:45
  people would be more interested in because they're more like
• 14:49
  Mervyn Pimfield say or even Ron Grainer or somebody like that
• 14:53
  you know. And I.
• 14:55
  And when Chris pitched it we didn't pitch it.
• 14:58
  He said shall we do this. And I went all right but I
• 15:03
  thought is is he does he really qualify You know Lenny Main we
• 15:08
  were we I knew we could we could reclaim him from his death.
• 15:12
  That's what I wanted to Lenny Main was the guy that died in
• 15:14
  the boat accident and I quite like the fact that we get rid of
• 15:17
  that right at the start and go backwards and go well let's make
• 15:20
  him live again. I I I like that that was there
• 15:22
  was you know there was a there was there was something to do
• 15:25
  there. Slightly different from the
• 15:27
  Peter one but but still you know it was all because we didn't
• 15:32
  really know there was. I think there was only one photo
• 15:34
  that we'd seen of Lenny Maine as well.
• 15:35
  So you know we were we were we were uncovering somebody who was
• 15:38
  obscured by tragedy but also by the fact that we didn't have
• 15:42
  much much of it. But I'd known from interviewing
• 15:45
  a couple of people that he had these twin daughters.
• 15:47
  So I'd yeah, I'd very much put the the pieces in place for that
• 15:51
  one. I knew we could make a
• 15:53
  documentary. There are enough people that we
• 15:54
  could talk to and Chris took the bat and and and we did that with
• 15:58
  David Whitaker. I thought he was a quite a well
• 16:00
  known figure. People talked about him.
• 16:02
  He's he's certainly had the credit for, for being the
• 16:05
  architect of early Doctor Who. I mean I think some some fan
• 16:08
  scholars you know have already pointed out you know the the the
• 16:11
  the great work he's done shaping it.
• 16:12
  We know from his writing of those early target novels that
• 16:15
  he was a damn fine writer and he understood Doctor Who and has
• 16:17
  this lovely sort of philosophical approach to its
• 16:21
  very intellectual heft that he has.
• 16:26
  So I wasn't wildly excited by it, apart from the fact that
• 16:29
  it's always nice to make a documentary about somebody from
• 16:32
  Doctor Who. So I was delighted that we were
• 16:35
  actually able to uncover all sorts of people and all sorts of
• 16:39
  insights and and get to know a key figure.
• 16:41
  It just goes so you don't, you know, you think you know
• 16:43
  somebody and actually you don't. I think it's slightly
• 16:48
  bittersweet for me though, because part of me goes, would
• 16:54
  it have been better to have left him as this mythical?
• 16:58
  Because for me, everyone from Doctor Who has had a perfect
• 17:00
  life and you know, they're these famous names on my bookshelf.
• 17:05
  You know what what wonderful times they must have had as
• 17:08
  people who weaved the magic and cast a spell over me as a kid.
• 17:12
  And they, you know, they stopped doing docs who because they
• 17:14
  didn't want to do it anymore. And they went off to do other
• 17:16
  marvelous things and had this great legacy and had a
• 17:20
  fascinating lives and moved on and did brilliant things.
• 17:24
  And of course, David David Whitaker's story, as I'm sure
• 17:26
  many other peoples are, is is much sadder than that.
• 17:32
  And I wonder, I I wonder if we did him any favors.
• 17:39
  I was. I was incredibly moved by that.
• 17:42
  It is moving but. But I've seen sort of bad
• 17:46
  documentaries. I don't mean Doctor Who ones.
• 17:48
  I've I wish a lot of documentaries on Netflix and
• 17:50
  things like that. The best Doctor Who ones are so
• 17:57
  dramatically well structured, and I thought that one was
• 18:01
  perfect and by the end I was reaching for a tissue.
• 18:04
  You know, it takes a lot to make me cry, Chris.
• 18:07
  Chris is great at that story. You know, they'll sometimes be
• 18:11
  things that I I want to put in, sometimes through vanity.
• 18:15
  I'm still pissed off that because a few people sent me
• 18:18
  things saying, Did you not notice that it's Alicia Charlton
• 18:21
  who plays her in An Unearthly Child?
• 18:25
  Is is there in the wedding footage of of of David
• 18:29
  Whittaker's wedding? And I'm like, no, I said that
• 18:32
  and I asked him to put that bit in the documentary because it's
• 18:36
  important for me for people to know that I can identify a
• 18:39
  Doctor Who actors as soon as I see them.
• 18:43
  But that's more about you. It's absolutely is though it's
• 18:47
  utter conceit and Chris did to be fair he did actually put it
• 18:51
  in one cut and he said he just thought it distracted and and he
• 18:54
  took it out and of course my my ego should have nothing to do
• 18:59
  with the final product And he's he's you know he's very good at
• 19:02
  well because he's not me he's he's very good at filtering out
• 19:06
  all of that crap. But he he's really good on story
• 19:10
  because you know a wayward documentary and an unfocused
• 19:15
  documentary could be a bit of a chore.
• 19:18
  And also it it then buys us the emotion because the emotion is
• 19:23
  not fake. I, you know, I feel incredibly
• 19:26
  privileged and touched to have even held a notebook that was
• 19:29
  once written in by David Whittaker.
• 19:31
  This stuff is so important to me.
• 19:33
  My I I I didn't really enjoy my childhood.
• 19:42
  It was quite difficult and Doctor Who was an escape and as
• 19:49
  I say I used to those those books were a were a portal to a
• 19:55
  sort of somewhere safe. And so I I do find it quite
• 20:01
  moving as now as sort of an older man.
• 20:05
  You know I feel a bit for that kid.
• 20:07
  It was I think quite a nice kid and he was quite sad.
• 20:11
  But he, you know, he loved Doctor Who.
• 20:13
  And it was, and I still do and it was magic.
• 20:15
  And I think that's why I still, you know, watch Doctor Who and
• 20:18
  dive into Doctor Who. And you know on a Sunday night
• 20:20
  when I. Could be doing things around the
• 20:22
  house. I was looking forward to this
• 20:23
  because I like talking to you. You're a nice guy, but I like
• 20:26
  talking about Doctor Who because it's sort of it.
• 20:33
  It shuts off the other noise. And and I've always been
• 20:38
  grateful and I've always sort of rather idolized the people that
• 20:43
  did it. Those books on the shelf books
• 20:44
  seem so important and dusty and works of great endeavor and
• 20:48
  those names and, you know, Terrence Dicks Brian Hales
• 20:51
  Malcolm and of course Dicks, Dicks was the only one that was
• 20:54
  alive of those sort of handfuls of books that I've said before
• 20:57
  about celebration. So they were dead.
• 20:59
  They were gone. They were like, oh, you know,
• 21:02
  they were they were figures from the past.
• 21:04
  So I find it rather moving to, you know, to hold in my hand, as
• 21:09
  somebody once said, but something that has been touched
• 21:13
  by those people. And you know, I know what it's
• 21:15
  like being a person and in the it's actually quite mundane.
• 21:20
  And their lives won't have been magical because Doctor Who
• 21:23
  wasn't magic to them when they were making, it was what they
• 21:26
  were doing for their job. But it's magic to me.
• 21:28
  It it's genuinely magic to me, those hallow days, those things
• 21:32
  that I can't touch because I wasn't there.
• 21:34
  Some of those episodes that I'll never see because they don't
• 21:36
  exist but but to have a little window into that as I say to
• 21:40
  just to just to touch it is a connection for me.
• 21:44
  And I think I was always looking for a connection as a as a kid
• 21:49
  and it was the only thing I really connected to and I I
• 21:57
  don't think anything I've said in the past five minutes is is
• 21:59
  remotely related to any of the questions that you asked me but
• 22:03
  but but but I've but there's something about and I've always
• 22:08
  found you know I think life is special I think people are
• 22:11
  special I think people I think people are interesting and and
• 22:15
  so that people like David Whitaker who I was never going
• 22:17
  to meet because he died when I was six.
• 22:20
  He was dead before I was cognizant of who he was or
• 22:23
  whatever. To have that sort of connection
• 22:27
  is very special to me and it is quite emotional.
• 22:34
  And then it you get the added emotion where you find out that
• 22:36
  actually just a normal person and prone to the same
• 22:40
  disappointments and probably pettinesses and probably, you
• 22:47
  know, ego, conceit, all those other things that we're all pray
• 22:49
  to because we're all, we're all people.
• 22:53
  But they will never stop being really special and magical
• 22:56
  figures to me and to be able to put flesh on their bones.
• 23:00
  I think there's just something quite moving about that process.
• 23:03
  But as I say, it does sadden me slightly that sometimes you then
• 23:07
  uncover this, you know, is actually rather sad, as I've
• 23:13
  done with living people. You know, as I've alluded to
• 23:15
  when we were talking about some of the who's round interviews.
• 23:19
  But it's it's instructive to learn that I think particularly
• 23:22
  if you're in this business where you're prone to see people
• 23:25
  who've done well and think Oh well all their problems are
• 23:27
  sorted. You know it's a stern reminder
• 23:29
  that actually no, we all it's it's a struggle that people all
• 23:35
  the time, no matter you know how great it might look on the
• 23:39
  outside. But I just find it very special
• 23:42
  that that I'm able to connect with these people.
• 23:44
  And also quite lovely that obviously the people that they
• 23:47
  were special to appreciate being given the opportunity to
• 23:52
  remember them and to memorialize them, and that these people
• 23:58
  remember. And it's mad with Doc too,
• 24:00
  because for a lot of people, Doctor Who was not the greatest
• 24:04
  thing that they did as far as they were concerned.
• 24:07
  But you can be an actor who played leading roles at the RSC
• 24:11
  in the 1960s. The theater world isn't going to
• 24:14
  remember you because the world, the the, the entertainment world
• 24:18
  is fucking fickle. But the Doctor Who world will
• 24:21
  never forget you. And I think that's to our
• 24:24
  credit. I think the fact that these that
• 24:27
  we that the we we're interested in the people I think is is to
• 24:33
  our credit. And I I think it it it is a
• 24:35
  reflection of of of what the show does but it's I think it's
• 24:39
  because it connects us with our childhood.
• 24:42
  As I get older, I I I find this more and more important because
• 24:49
  being a kid is well. I found being a kid really hard
• 24:52
  and I'm really grateful to Doctor Who for for what it did
• 24:58
  for me. I was, I was exactly.
• 25:01
  I was talking on a podcast recently.
• 25:04
  I had to talk talk about 5 things, 5 bits of merchandise
• 25:08
  that mean a lot to me. And you know, askance.
• 25:12
  This host as I told him the trial of a Time Lord VHS box set
• 25:18
  was one of my 5 greatest Doctor Who things.
• 25:21
  Because at that point. My dad had just gone to prison.
• 25:24
  My sister had had a breakdown. We lost our family home and
• 25:28
  trial of the time. The box that came out at the
• 25:30
  same time and for four hours. I don't know how long trial of
• 25:35
  time it is. For that period of time.
• 25:38
  I wasn't in my life. I was having an adventure with
• 25:41
  Colin Baker on Ravlox and Thoros Beta and the high period 3 and
• 25:47
  where that space station is. Yeah.
• 25:50
  So I absolutely get it with the David Whisker one again, the
• 25:55
  sort of that huge injustice that occurred to him especially with
• 25:57
  his career. I was I was almost angry with
• 26:01
  myself that I didn't know that and and I was like no, that and
• 26:05
  Jessica I I I'm so pleased. I know about that now.
• 26:09
  Well, well, none of us knew about that.
• 26:10
  That's, that's, that was Simon, Gary.
• 26:12
  And I'll tell you what's very generous about that is that that
• 26:16
  is something Simon could have kept for his book and he didn't.
• 26:20
  And that's to his credit, because that would have been a
• 26:23
  great, great, pardon me exclusive, if you like, for his
• 26:27
  book, but he couldn't have been more helpful.
• 26:29
  We never got a whiff of hang on you're treading on you're
• 26:31
  treading on the toes of my research here and I'll you know,
• 26:34
  I'll I'll I'll keep certain stuff back.
• 26:36
  He didn't keep anything. There will be stuff in the book
• 26:38
  that's not in the documentary but that's either because he
• 26:41
  found out afterwards or we didn't have space for it but he
• 26:44
  was absolutely generous with the with everything there.
• 26:47
  Simon again that's discredits because we all you know for
• 26:50
  whatever for whatever criticisms people might have of the Doctor
• 26:53
  Who range and and and the and the fans who crop up on on
• 26:56
  everything. And I I think I you know the the
• 27:01
  clarifying ubiquitous at times is that we we all work really
• 27:08
  hard on it. Nobody's glib about the
• 27:10
  contribution. Nobody thinks they've they
• 27:14
  they're entitled to be doing what they're doing but everybody
• 27:17
  is extremely generous with their time and with their material.
• 27:19
  The amount of work that Richard Bignell does behind the scenes
• 27:23
  and he is unfailingly generous and helpful and he helped when
• 27:26
  he, you know, when he's in his own time and on his own expense
• 27:29
  doing research at the BBC written archives, He might have
• 27:32
  an idea that I haven't looked in this particular file for
• 27:35
  something that might be useful for my equator mask book without
• 27:38
  even asking. And he'll scan it and send it to
• 27:40
  me and you know, and he does all that and he's done that for for
• 27:44
  other projects as well. He will he will always do
• 27:46
  something if you ask him. But what he quite often does is
• 27:48
  done do stuff that you haven't asked him to do because it's
• 27:51
  occurred to him that it might it might be useful to you.
• 27:53
  And there's a lot of that that goes on.
• 27:55
  And I think sometimes people think there's this sort of cabal
• 27:58
  of of you know fans cackling at their their own importance
• 28:03
  within the fan community, which is not a currency I recognize.
• 28:06
  I think a fan is a fan and is therefore you know you are
• 28:10
  subservient to the show. And you know, I I just happened
• 28:14
  to be a professional performer. So I've been able to be
• 28:16
  performative about my fandom and and that's given me some jobs
• 28:21
  you know, on the range and stuff.
• 28:22
  But I don't see that as me being.
• 28:24
  I have no desire to be an important fan in inverted commas
• 28:27
  because I don't believe there is such a thing.
• 28:30
  But I know I'm sure it can sometimes look from the outside
• 28:33
  like there are sort of little cabals and enclaves of people.
• 28:37
  But of course, the reason that myself and Chris Chapman and Ed
• 28:40
  Stradling and Peter Crocker might all be talking to each
• 28:45
  other at the BFI is because we all know each other, because we
• 28:47
  all work on the range together. So of course we're going to talk
• 28:50
  to her, but if somebody, I don't know, comes up and talks to me
• 28:52
  at the BF, I I will talk to them.
• 28:53
  I'll talk to anybody. I'm happy to.
• 28:55
  Talk to you. Have a conversation with the
• 28:57
  BFI, you and I. Yes, not as long as I would have
• 28:59
  liked. The problem is, I have to say
• 29:01
  hello to about a million people. We actually only met in the
• 29:04
  flesh 1. That was the one time, yes,
• 29:06
  Matthew Sweet was commanding your attention.
• 29:09
  And to be honest with you, you know there's choice between me
• 29:11
  and Matthew Sweet. I'll choose Matthew.
• 29:13
  As well, not at all. Not at what?
• 29:16
  Oh, I think it's because Matthew had lured me with the he
• 29:20
  suggested that there's some quater mass paperwork that might
• 29:23
  still be about. So that suddenly made me feel
• 29:27
  excited and also slightly depressed that I didn't have it.
• 29:29
  But. I was nervous now.
• 29:31
  I wanted to go and say hello to Matthew Sweet.
• 29:33
  He doesn't know me from Adam, so I didn't.
• 29:35
  I should have. Well, you should have said I'd
• 29:37
  have introduced you happily. Well, there's always next time,
• 29:40
  isn't there? Well, you.
• 29:41
  Yeah. Are you going to the next?
• 29:42
  Has it been, Are you going to the next BFI thing?
• 29:46
  No. I've got tickets for that, but I
• 29:48
  I will be there. I'll be back.
• 29:50
  Don't worry. Right.
• 29:53
  That, that was one question there, you know and that went,
• 29:56
  so sorry, sorry. No, you're gonna stop
• 30:00
  apologizing. It's so great.
• 30:01
  It's great stuff. Hannah asks.
• 30:05
  What is Toby's? Top missing show he likes he
• 30:08
  returned that isn't who or Quatermass.
• 30:14
  Oh oh gosh. I'm you know I've got a very one
• 30:19
  track mind. Oh missing.
• 30:23
  Now I think it's a slight cheat because it's not Quatermass but
• 30:32
  oh oh hang on. I was going to say the creature,
• 30:37
  which is the Neil and Cartier Abominable Snowmen play that was
• 30:41
  on between Crater Mass Experiment and 1984 and Crater
• 30:44
  Mass 2. But the film The Abominable
• 30:47
  Snowmen that Hammer did is is is pretty much identical except
• 30:52
  it's got a subplot that's not in the play and it's even got some
• 30:54
  of the same cast. But I'd still like to see it,
• 30:57
  partially because Nigel Neil always told the story that there
• 30:59
  was a guy sweeping up, caught on camera in in The Cave.
• 31:04
  Well, well, well, the Don Denymon was being being enacted
• 31:07
  and that was actually reported in a couple of the papers as
• 31:09
  well. So it definitely happened.
• 31:11
  Nigel Neal said it then happened on the repeat performance as
• 31:14
  well, which I think may have been him catastrophizing, but
• 31:16
  we'll never know. But actually, there's a Nigel
• 31:20
  Neal play called The Road that I adapted for Radio Four.
• 31:23
  That is an extraordinary script with an amazing ending, one of
• 31:27
  the great endings of any piece of drama and certainly of any
• 31:31
  sort of horror. I think.
• 31:33
  I think it would have to be Nigel Neal, directed by
• 31:38
  Christopher Morahan. The Road, which is a beautiful
• 31:42
  piece of work, yeah. Jason Thompson, I believe is one
• 31:47
  of your patrons, asks. Do you have any memorable?
• 31:53
  Unexpected. Positive and just nice
• 31:57
  experiences with who. Now obviously the answer to that
• 32:00
  is yes, but I'm assuming he's asking you to select 10 God the
• 32:06
  most. Positive experience.
• 32:07
  Let's go with that one most positive experience, but, you
• 32:11
  know, it might be a little thing.
• 32:13
  I remember I I always say I was never part of fandom.
• 32:17
  I did. I did have some mates in.
• 32:19
  I lived in the countryside in the middle of nowhere.
• 32:20
  But I did get to know some lads who who were in the Willenhall
• 32:23
  local group, which is sort of Wolverhampton way that I that I
• 32:26
  hung around with for for a year or so.
• 32:28
  And it was around the time of the 25th anniversary.
• 32:32
  And in fact, I remember on Doctor Who's 25th anniversary,
• 32:37
  we went, we did something, I can't remember what, but I I was
• 32:40
  wearing my Doctor Who scarf, which I had, which got eaten by
• 32:43
  moths. And bearing in mind the Doctor
• 32:49
  Who was sort of at the fag end of its TV existence and was and
• 32:53
  was, you know, people, people were rather Snooty about it at
• 32:57
  that time. I remember showing my ticket to
• 33:00
  the ticket inspector lady who was a a youngish woman.
• 33:04
  You know, we were young when I was a teenager, but she would,
• 33:07
  she would probably have been, you know, late 20s maybe.
• 33:12
  And and she said, oh, Doctor Who fans, I don't know.
• 33:15
  And I thought she might say, oh I remember that but it was good
• 33:17
  or whatever people you say. And she said happy birthday.
• 33:20
  And I it was just a tiny moment of 1.
• 33:23
  Because I think we got quite defensive about being Doctor Who
• 33:25
  fans in those days because it was, you know, as I say it was
• 33:28
  it was it people were were rude about it and people thought it
• 33:33
  was fun to to mock it and it was you know denigrated left right
• 33:36
  and center. But, but but that was just a
• 33:38
  moment where it was one of those small little moments of
• 33:41
  kindness. So I'll always remember that
• 33:43
  I've never. Yeah that's that's languished in
• 33:46
  my memory banks. It's a nice yeah.
• 33:49
  I mean too many in terms of. I'm sure that's not what Jason
• 33:52
  was after. He's after.
• 33:55
  I mean Russell Russell agreeing to do that interview was a
• 33:58
  massive whoa, no, I'll tell you the one.
• 34:02
  I'll tell you the one. It was when I was at the
• 34:07
  Edinburgh Fringe and a comic called Bill Bruce, who I've sort
• 34:12
  of lost touch with. And I'm rather sad that I have
• 34:17
  because he he had, he had a slot at Edinburgh and he decided one
• 34:21
  Saturday night, I think to give his slot over to do a charity
• 34:25
  night of Doctor Who comedy to raise money for the Hospice that
• 34:29
  David Tennant's mum had worked at and recently passed away in.
• 34:34
  And so he got me and he got Mitch, Ben who's also, you know,
• 34:37
  well known for doing Doctor Who material and Mitch is a Doctor
• 34:40
  Who fan and Bill himself and we did a night of Doctor Who based
• 34:47
  stand up comedy and Bill is part of his spiel.
• 34:51
  There was a charity auction as well I think said we, you know
• 34:54
  we've got some stuff and David Tennant's people will know about
• 34:58
  it. And he said because I've got
• 35:00
  David Tennant's people's e-mail address and he was just doing it
• 35:02
  as a sort of mock sort of Hardy, Hardy heart.
• 35:05
  So as then to. And then I went on and did my
• 35:07
  bit and I and as a sort of to continue that tone, I actually
• 35:11
  said, well I've actually got David Tennant's e-mail address.
• 35:15
  And I had, because a friend of mine, an actress called
• 35:18
  Madeleine who I've been in Midsummer Night's Dream with the
• 35:20
  Royal Exchange, which is what probably still my favorite
• 35:23
  acting job that I did. And I still got great friends
• 35:25
  from that. And Fanella Wolga was in that, I
• 35:28
  go through. Christy was in that and and
• 35:32
  Madeline invited everyone to her 40th birthday via e-mail.
• 35:35
  But she didn't BCC everybody. She C Ced everybody.
• 35:39
  And it was like everyone that she'd ever met.
• 35:43
  And so I was scanning, you know, I was just idly scanning and
• 35:47
  David Tennant's e-mail address was there.
• 35:48
  I didn't do anything with it, but I just noticed, oh, I've got
• 35:51
  David Tennant's e-mail address. That's quite funny.
• 35:56
  But I mentioned it as part of this stick now anyway.
• 35:57
  David Tennant had got wind of this comedy night, I think, and
• 36:00
  we raised, you know, 3 grand or whatever, but he didn't know
• 36:05
  anyone connected with it. But I think they've released it
• 36:06
  as a podcaster before podcasts as they've released it, the
• 36:09
  audio of it somehow. And so he heard me saying that
• 36:13
  on the thing. So then he worked out who that
• 36:16
  must have been. Who?
• 36:19
  Who's had a 40th birthday recently?
• 36:20
  Bloody bloody blah. Rang up Madeline and said, do
• 36:24
  you know a guy called Toby Hadoke?
• 36:27
  Because he's done this charity gig for my mom and I want to
• 36:30
  thank somebody. Have you got his number?
• 36:34
  So she gave him my number. So one morning, one morning I'm
• 36:39
  pottering around the house and the phone goes, it's early, it's
• 36:42
  just before the school run. I'm like, I bet and I was
• 36:45
  booking my comedy club at that time.
• 36:46
  So is this some comic after a gig at fucking 8:45.
• 36:51
  So I picked it up. I was like and it's like you
• 36:56
  know, this voice goes hello is is that Toby Haderke And and I
• 37:00
  said yes and I and and I think my brain was kicking in and he
• 37:06
  said bless him. He said my name's David Tennant
• 37:11
  and he'd and and he'd rung to say thanks.
• 37:15
  He rung. You know, he'd he'd.
• 37:17
  But it wasn't that he'd you know, he heard this thing and
• 37:19
  had been able to get hold of the person who organized it.
• 37:22
  He didn't know anybody involved and the only angle that he had
• 37:25
  was that throwaway comment by me made him sort of work it out and
• 37:29
  do a little bit of research and phone that person and then go to
• 37:32
  the trouble of phoning me. And he was which was a really
• 37:34
  and he was Doctor Who at the time Doctor Who phoned me and
• 37:40
  then a little bit later of course I'm I'm doing my site by
• 37:43
  Doctor Who scarf on tour and and we were we were with the idea of
• 37:47
  having cameos on and I thought it probably wouldn't quite work
• 37:49
  because it's not a Doctor Who show.
• 37:51
  So Nicholas Courtney coming on stage isn't going to it's it's
• 37:54
  probably going to in a way. No, no disrespect to Nick it's
• 37:57
  it's going to take away from what it is.
• 37:59
  It's not a Doctor Who tie in that.
• 38:01
  But but I, I said to the producers, well, I I do have
• 38:05
  David Tennant's e-mail. We could ask for a voice and I
• 38:08
  worked out where perhaps the doctor's voice could go in the
• 38:10
  show and e-mail and I and I think I got them to e-mail him
• 38:16
  to ask him. So at.
• 38:18
  Least it was. Former they were West End
• 38:19
  producers. So I thought, you know that's at
• 38:21
  least a bit professional. And then we then he liaised with
• 38:25
  me and he and I sent him the script and he sent it and and so
• 38:29
  when I went on stage at the West End, my West End debut doing
• 38:32
  Mustang, my doctor's stuff for the first time, it had an
• 38:34
  introduction by and a cameo from in the middle David Tennant who
• 38:38
  was the Doctor at the time. That was all because he'd he'd
• 38:43
  done that lovely phone call and then I haven't taken the piss.
• 38:45
  I've you know I've never phoned him.
• 38:47
  I've got his number. I I I've I you know I didn't I
• 38:50
  didn't bother him on e-mail but then when when it was needed to
• 38:53
  do something and I've had cause to e-mail him a couple of times
• 38:56
  since always bloody asking him for something and he's always
• 39:00
  come up Trump's and he's always been absolutely delightful and
• 39:06
  but but that that phoning out of the blue and then doing making
• 39:11
  my West End debut even more special the things that I have
• 39:18
  to sometimes remind myself happened because I'd forgotten
• 39:21
  about them actually I hadn't forgotten about them I knew that
• 39:23
  happened it was only when you asked that question I went Oh
• 39:25
  yeah hang on I need to tell people that because that's
• 39:27
  amazing that's cool but that's. That's all from David being a
• 39:30
  really nice guy. Oh, you know, I've.
• 39:32
  Never heard. I've not heard a bad word many,
• 39:37
  many people. But that's gorgeous.
• 39:39
  What a lovely story. Joe Llewellyn.
• 39:43
  I can never say his surname. No, it's actually it's like the
• 39:47
  wealth. It's just Llewellyn.
• 39:49
  Joe Llewellyn asks. And I believe he's being very,
• 39:52
  hey, Joe. Joe's lovely.
• 39:54
  I've never met Joe, but he's a friend from across the pond and
• 39:57
  he's a great correspondent and he's been very encouraging and
• 40:01
  and and I just like his perspective and I like his
• 40:03
  style. He's a nice guy, Joe, even
• 40:05
  though I've never met him, but he's a great correspondent from
• 40:07
  across the pond. You'll have the opportunity to
• 40:09
  hear. Him do one of the hamster
• 40:11
  commentary soon. Hey, no, I'm pleased.
• 40:13
  I'm pleased? He asked.
• 40:14
  What will it take to get you back to the States, specifically
• 40:17
  Gallifrey 10. I just have to.
• 40:20
  Be asked. I suppose I have to be candid
• 40:23
  about this. There's a slightly check at
• 40:24
  history there and I it's it's not entirely my fault.
• 40:29
  But it's partly my fault I think is that when I went there the
• 40:32
  first year and and did moths I'm my sense of humor is very glass
• 40:37
  half empty in Ryan British and self deprecating and when I did
• 40:41
  Moss there we we did go up quite late.
• 40:44
  I think I was due to go say I was due to go on at 9:30.
• 40:46
  I think I ended up going on at like 11.
• 40:49
  And I was very, very nervous. And I think the cosplay thing
• 40:54
  went on long and long and long and it was fine.
• 40:56
  Rob Sheer was furious on my behalf, but it was, it was fine.
• 40:59
  I was just nervous, you know, because I well, I wasn't
• 41:02
  performing in a theater either. I was performing in a sort of
• 41:04
  hotel conference room. And the vibe there is very
• 41:06
  different. And I'd gone through the sort of
• 41:08
  tech cues, but again, it wasn't a theater.
• 41:11
  It wasn't a theater setup, so. And and doing the tech for a
• 41:14
  convention is very different from doing the tech for a
• 41:17
  theater show that has cues and, you know, blah, blah.
• 41:20
  So you know, a lot of the tech stuff didn't come in when would
• 41:25
  have been ideal and I had to make jokes about that, which I
• 41:29
  did because you have to make the performance work.
• 41:32
  And then then I sort of, when I sort of wrote it up in running
• 41:34
  through corridors, which was me and Rob communicating with each
• 41:36
  other, you know, I sort of. Played up the kind of oh that
• 41:41
  was nearly a disaster and oh God that was a bit of a but it was
• 41:45
  all meant to be a kind of I was up against it you know a sort of
• 41:53
  wry kind of oh bloody hell sort of thing.
• 41:55
  But of course the people that work at those conventions are
• 41:57
  very hardworking, dedicated people who are giving their own
• 42:00
  time and and I think, you know we're two countries divided by a
• 42:04
  a common language or whatever. I think, well, in fact I know
• 42:07
  because it it was, it was fed back to me after I was.
• 42:10
  Slightly surprised by something I'd read or heard or something
• 42:13
  that the the, the, the, the people have taken that my my
• 42:16
  reaction which was to use humor to dig myself out of the
• 42:20
  situation as somehow a slight on them, which was not intended to
• 42:24
  be at all. And I actually saw Shawn Lyon
• 42:28
  Chicago and and and he was a bit sort of you know evasive with
• 42:33
  me. So I'm going to lift with him
• 42:34
  and went what's what's going on? What's the problem?
• 42:37
  And he said well and he and he explained that, you know, you
• 42:41
  know people people have been a bit upset what they've seen as
• 42:44
  me sort of being critical and I explained, you know, God, no
• 42:47
  that was my sense of humor. It's only supposed to be self
• 42:49
  deprecatory would never want to offend anybody.
• 42:51
  Bloody blah. To his credit, he went, you
• 42:53
  know, OK well I'm glad we've had that conversation.
• 42:56
  And then so then he invited me back to when I did step my
• 43:00
  stepson, sell my Sonic screwdriver.
• 43:02
  So I did go again. But.
• 43:07
  I I wonder if you know, I slightly blotted my copybook
• 43:12
  there, which? As I say, is, is.
• 43:16
  Understandable, but it was not taken in the way that it had
• 43:21
  been intended. But I'm not saying that they
• 43:24
  shouldn't have taken it in that way, if that makes sense.
• 43:28
  I think it's just one of those things that's that's slightly
• 43:32
  unfortunate and it's a shame because it's a.
• 43:35
  Flipping. It's a fantastic convention.
• 43:37
  They don't need me there. Do you know what I mean?
• 43:38
  They have they certainly you know because when I when I did
• 43:41
  moths there I did lots of on stage interviews as well so I
• 43:43
  was able to sort of double up and make myself useful.
• 43:45
  But they don't need me to do on stage interviews.
• 43:47
  They've got loads of really good people more more than enough.
• 43:50
  So I'm I'm I'm I'm not necessary.
• 43:53
  They don't need me to be there. So I guess unless I've got a
• 43:57
  show, and even then it's. I say it's no guarantee because.
• 44:01
  My bloody bug. But as I said, no, because Shawn
• 44:03
  was very nice and invited me back.
• 44:04
  And in fact, when the second time I was.
• 44:07
  Supposed to get? A train to man, to to London to
• 44:12
  get the flight out and all the trains from Manchester were
• 44:15
  cancelled. And in the end I had to e-mail
• 44:18
  Shawn and say I think I'm going to have to fly from Manchester
• 44:22
  to London and then fly from London.
• 44:25
  And to his credit, he got straight back to me and said,
• 44:28
  oh, well, you know, and if that plane costs you, you know, we'll
• 44:30
  cover. We will cover that cost as well,
• 44:32
  which I hadn't been angling for. I think I've just been saying
• 44:34
  that there's no trains going out and all the trains were
• 44:37
  cancelled. I was on the train and then
• 44:38
  suddenly all because the rain came down or something flooded
• 44:41
  anyway, so it suddenly it is. And it was really weird because
• 44:43
  then I had to get off the train and I went up to Marks and
• 44:46
  Spencer's to get myself something to drink.
• 44:47
  And there was somebody there with a copy of An Unearthly
• 44:50
  Child in their hand and said you, Toby Hadoke.
• 44:52
  And I went, yes, it was really weird and so anyway, so.
• 44:59
  Yeah, I I don't think I'm their favorite person, which saddens
• 45:04
  me, but but they certainly weren't averse to having me back
• 45:11
  for stepson. So that was that.
• 45:15
  But but it's it's not like unless I'm doing a one man show,
• 45:22
  it's not like there's anybody. There's there's nobody else that
• 45:26
  can do what my other skill sets are, which is interviewing
• 45:30
  people on stage and I'm you know and I'm not a I'm not a Doctor
• 45:34
  Who celebrity. I've never been in Doctor Who.
• 45:37
  I've I've I've, I've not written any Doctor Who fiction.
• 45:41
  So I'm not despite what you might say I'm not I'm not
• 45:44
  interesting enough to be interviewed.
• 45:46
  So I I think maybe it would have to be.
• 45:50
  I would have to do another show in order to get invited back out
• 45:53
  there, but if they wanted be out there, I would go because I had
• 45:56
  a lovely time and I like the American fans and I like the
• 45:58
  American people, but it's a brilliant convention.
• 46:01
  So I could have said all of that without without mentioning the
• 46:04
  bit that lost. But I I'm an open book.
• 46:06
  I think you one should be candid.
• 46:09
  Just imagine how how those technical difficulties would
• 46:12
  have gone down in a UK convention, because it would
• 46:14
  effectively be the play that went wrong, right?
• 46:17
  Yeah, and everybody would just. Be falling about, I'd imagine.
• 46:21
  And and the, you know, the creators of the convention will
• 46:25
  probably be laughing along with you.
• 46:27
  There's definitely there is a human device whether people want
• 46:30
  to acknowledge you or not. Yeah, but also, but also.
• 46:32
  I I think it was slightly crass of me because, you know, you
• 46:37
  know what it's like when you put something out there and the
• 46:38
  first thing somebody says is, oh, you don't put a full stop
• 46:42
  there or you spell that person's name wrong Or, you know, I think
• 46:45
  you'll find that, you know, that you were thinking about.
• 46:49
  Terence Dicks, not Terence Dudley or you know and you go
• 46:52
  hang on you've just listened to a twohour podcast and you're
• 46:55
  picking me up on a getting somebody's name wrong or a
• 46:57
  pronunciation or whatever. And and so if you've organized a
• 47:00
  massive great convention and you're in the come down of it
• 47:03
  and and you know the first thing you read of the feedback from
• 47:07
  that comedian bloke is that he's you know he's he's done some wry
• 47:12
  humor about the technical side of things you might go so you
• 47:18
  know. I put out 2 1/2 thousand reviews
• 47:21
  on my website for free and somebody came at me after
• 47:26
  reading all of them saying your grammar's terrible.
• 47:28
  I was like your boss. It's funny I I.
• 47:31
  Was listening to another podcast not a Doctor Who podcast.
• 47:34
  It's it's a bit sort of middleclassy yummy mummy.
• 47:36
  It's called How Not to Fail, but it's trying to be inspirational
• 47:39
  and it's and she interviewed some really interesting people
• 47:42
  and I was reading the reviews and somebody had given it one
• 47:44
  star and and they went something like.
• 47:48
  Well. You know the 1st 2:00. 100
• 47:49
  episodes were great but you know episode 215 they interviewed so
• 47:53
  and so and I don't like them and thought think they're they
• 47:55
  should be and think they're a bit and you go right so hang on
• 47:59
  so that's enough to give it one star do you know what I mean
• 48:02
  That's and that's that's The thing is that if so so if a if a
• 48:07
  if a podcast that you listen to does one episode that you don't
• 48:10
  like you feel free to give it one star but you wouldn't have
• 48:12
  given it five stars for the other 200 and that you find that
• 48:16
  quite often happens. The the We live at such
• 48:20
  extremes. And I think, I mean, I think if
• 48:24
  something's got a theme tune and you can hear it, it deserves
• 48:28
  more than one star. Do you know what I mean?
• 48:31
  You've listened to mine, right? Yeah, I've had a lot of people
• 48:34
  on. Someone called mine toxic and
• 48:37
  unwelcoming. Are you kidding me?
• 48:41
  Did you listen, it's crazy. It's crazy.
• 48:44
  And and also if I. Hated something that much.
• 48:46
  I just wouldn't give it. I wouldn't.
• 48:49
  I wouldn't give. I wouldn't start.
• 48:50
  Do you know what I mean? It's it's the unfortunate thing
• 48:53
  is these people have the power to do so, so they use it.
• 48:58
  Can I ask you Johnny Morris's question now?
• 49:00
  Is it something? Fatuous.
• 49:04
  Yes it is. Johnny asks which is best.
• 49:11
  The best is the word he uses Doctor Who, quite a mass or the
• 49:15
  complete works of Dennis Posser. That's a good question.
• 49:19
  Johnny by the way is a very talented and very nice man and
• 49:22
  he would actually, I know some some listers of this, watched my
• 49:28
  one man show. Now I know my BBC actually sent
• 49:32
  the script of that to Johnny and he sent it back with.
• 49:36
  A sweep of some really good jokes and I think they ended
• 49:38
  some of them ended up being the best jokes in it so which he
• 49:42
  which he just kindly did for me so very fond of Johnny and he
• 49:47
  writes great Doctor Who stuff and he's he's he's a lovely man
• 49:51
  in good company and a very very funny man he's he's so bold
• 49:56
  Johnny and a. Massive fan of Douglas Adams the
• 50:00
  1st Doctor Who book that he wrote, Festival of Death was an
• 50:07
  enormous tribute to Douglas Adams and the great and how is
• 50:11
  accolade I can give Johnny is it reads like a Douglas Adams book
• 50:18
  I. Mean.
• 50:19
  He's such a clever man. He is a clever.
• 50:23
  And he wears it. He wears it lightly.
• 50:26
  I like him a lot, Johnny. He's also a Starkey bastard as
• 50:28
  well. He is, yeah.
• 50:30
  Yeah, he's a prick. No, I like he's a he's a good
• 50:35
  lad. What's his question?
• 50:39
  What's best? Doctor Who greater match or the
• 50:42
  complete works of Dennis Potter? I was going to say I'll.
• 50:46
  Reject Dennis Potter straight away because Dennis Potter could
• 50:48
  be very up and down. And I thought, hang on, Doctor
• 50:52
  Who could be very up and down. I did a commentary on The Twin
• 50:55
  Dilemma last week. Yeah, I I.
• 50:58
  God, it's so hard to be. Objective, I mean, I think oh,
• 51:03
  but what What is best? Do you know what?
• 51:05
  Well, I I'm afraid, I think it it has to be Doctor Who.
• 51:10
  Because Doctor Who is more than a sum of its part.
• 51:13
  Quatermast is brilliant, groundbreaking, bold,
• 51:15
  exceptional. Probably in terms of its
• 51:18
  concentration of high quality, you know far exceeds Doctor Who
• 51:23
  because there's only, you know, there's only the the, the small,
• 51:27
  small number of them. And it's a different thing.
• 51:29
  Dennis Potter. You know it is lofty as
• 51:31
  highfalutin is about the human condition is challenging, but
• 51:36
  Doctor Who is escapist, tea time entertainment that resonates in
• 51:41
  so many different directions and manages to be profound and
• 51:44
  stupid and disposable and important and silly and
• 51:51
  inspiring and and and beyond actually, what it is as a
• 51:56
  program, what it represents. In our cultural landscape, to us
• 52:00
  personally, it's a miracle. Doctor Who, So wonderful, those
• 52:06
  Those two other things are Doctor Who, It's Doctor Who,
• 52:10
  It's Doctor Who. It's Doctor Who.
• 52:12
  It inspires people to be creative.
• 52:15
  It brings people together socially, you know, it gets us
• 52:18
  thinking critically. I mean, it is a a machine, isn't
• 52:23
  it? I can't.
• 52:25
  Imagine my life with that. Know.
• 52:27
  Normally. Normally.
• 52:29
  Well, there's your answer, Johnny.
• 52:30
  Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
• 52:34
  I want to ask where's the question now?
• 52:37
  Blah blah blah blah. Matt, I've just got Matt's here
• 52:43
  asks. Well, he asked me to ask you
• 52:47
  When is the third volume of running through corridors Jew?
• 52:50
  Now I finally. Managed to color Rob Sheerman
• 52:53
  not that long ago and it was lovely again.
• 52:56
  I thought he'd gone off me but he's just been really busy and
• 53:01
  as that's a personal stuff as well distracting him and and
• 53:04
  writing his. You know he writes a million
• 53:06
  books before tea time and we discussed it and and he actually
• 53:11
  said we can't do it right now. But he's got some and I thought
• 53:14
  because we'd you know, we'd. We have done it and we, you
• 53:18
  know, and we've got all the notes and everything.
• 53:20
  And I said, well, let's just gather it all up and put it all
• 53:23
  together. And he said, no, so much time
• 53:24
  has passed. What we're going to have to do
• 53:27
  is we're going to have to do it again.
• 53:29
  We're going to have to pick up from where we left off the last
• 53:32
  book and we're going to have to do the, we're going to have to
• 53:35
  do it. He said so.
• 53:36
  He said because. We're going to have to think
• 53:39
  back to what we did at the time, and too much time has passed
• 53:42
  now. I mean, you know, the second
• 53:43
  book came out, it was all building up to a wedding that by
• 53:46
  the time the book's out, the marriage is over.
• 53:48
  I mean, that was pretty hard. So, like, should we chop all of
• 53:51
  that stuff out? But actually some of the quite
• 53:53
  charming stuff in it was the the build up to that.
• 53:55
  It was just. You know then when you look at
• 53:57
  it in the cold light of day and all that water's under the
• 53:59
  bridge and you go, I really want to share this.
• 54:01
  And what is a review about Doctor Who?
• 54:03
  But fuck it, you know. Again, open book.
• 54:06
  I see there's no point in hiding anything.
• 54:08
  Exactly. What Rusty said about I forgot
• 54:13
  the name of the book now the Benjamin Cook the the emails.
• 54:16
  Thank you writers tale, he said. Put it all out.
• 54:19
  Let's just do it. Yeah.
• 54:21
  But Russell T. Davis is an important cultural
• 54:23
  figure. But anyway, whatever you said
• 54:28
  earlier about people having a certain image, you are far too
• 54:31
  self deprecating to have any kind of an image.
• 54:35
  Well, so I I, I think what we will have to do is in the in the
• 54:42
  new year we will have to redo you know from the leisure hive
• 54:50
  through and and Muse upon the fact that.
• 54:53
  You know we we've we've had to redo that part of the experiment
• 54:56
  because life got in the way and and just do it like that, which
• 55:01
  I wouldn't have said to do but Rob's instincts are usually
• 55:06
  correct and I didn't thinks feel strongly enough about it either
• 55:11
  way and it does and it does say it will.
• 55:14
  I, ironically will probably be easier to do it again and
• 55:19
  respond to it now. Than to try and mold what is
• 55:24
  actually a bit of a relic because of course so much Doctor
• 55:27
  Who stuff has gone gone gone under the the the bridge.
• 55:32
  So yeah it so hope maybe next year.
• 55:38
  I don't know it's it's whenever Rob is ready, but it's certainly
• 55:44
  we certainly have made some progress because I I met up with
• 55:47
  him about 6 to 8 weeks ago and it was jolly and it was nice.
• 55:52
  The. Intention is there.
• 55:54
  The intention is there. Okay.
• 55:57
  Tom Newsom, Lovely Tom Newsom. If Toby never got into Doctor
• 56:05
  Who, what else does he think he would have been into?
• 56:09
  It's funny. Do you know what I mean?
• 56:11
  I certainly. I am.
• 56:16
  I'm certainly of the makeup that if I get into something, I will
• 56:19
  dive fully into it. In fact, I I just started for
• 56:22
  pleasure rewatching The Wire, which I've only watched once and
• 56:25
  is a fascinating, sprawling, dense, brilliantly sort of
• 56:32
  novelistic television series. And I'd watched it once and you
• 56:37
  know, I found it quite hard but rewarding and I'm really
• 56:41
  enjoying it this time round so. Then I ordered the making of
• 56:46
  book. I've ordered the book that
• 56:47
  inspired it. I've ordered the book that they
• 56:49
  wrote around you know and sudden and and I will.
• 56:52
  I will consume myself and so I find it very easy to get.
• 56:57
  You know very deeply. Into a thing, I mean.
• 57:01
  I got quite deeply into. Quite a mass, you know, I, I I
• 57:05
  mean, I think the thing with Doctor Who is that there's so
• 57:07
  much of it, but I'm sure I could, you know, I remember when
• 57:11
  Buffy was on, I got quite into. I mean, there are things I
• 57:14
  consider myself not particularly a fan of, but I still probably
• 57:18
  could tell you at least a couple of guest actors of most episodes
• 57:22
  and you know, the story, you know, the storylines.
• 57:25
  I'm like, so, so even even things I think I've only got to
• 57:28
  cursory sort of knowledge or interest of, the the way that my
• 57:33
  mind works and the way that everything sort of connects
• 57:36
  together means that, you know, I can yeah, I could still hold my
• 57:41
  own I suppose if. So I I mean, I got very into
• 57:45
  Buffy. I bought all the guidebooks,
• 57:47
  I've got all the DV D's and Angel as well.
• 57:50
  So I loved all of that stuff. I suppose I probably if there'd
• 57:55
  been space, I might have got into Star Trek more.
• 57:57
  I've watched, I've watched all of Next Generation DS9 bits of
• 58:06
  Voyager, but not much. Bits of enterprise, but not
• 58:09
  much. I've tried to watch some of the
• 58:11
  new ones. I don't need a 5 minute scene in
• 58:13
  Klingon when I watch Chekhov play.
• 58:18
  That they don't speak in Russian because they know I don't speak
• 58:20
  Russian so they all speak in English.
• 58:22
  I I I find it. Yeah.
• 58:26
  I I find that quite amusing. The opening scene as well and
• 58:33
  it's and it's a shame because I'm sure it's very good but I I
• 58:36
  yeah. I don't know.
• 58:37
  I. But also as I'm getting older I
• 58:40
  find this this this. And you know what I I kind of
• 58:43
  like what I'm it takes me a while to get into something but
• 58:46
  then if I get into it I as I say I get I get quite into it.
• 58:51
  But you know if you tell me as a kid the amount of scifi that
• 58:54
  would be on the telly now you know when the television
• 58:58
  landscape we had Invasion Earth and that was about it, you know
• 59:01
  and and and and Star Trek, The Next Generation on BBCT, you
• 59:07
  know I would have thought God. I will never be bored again but
• 59:10
  you know what I flick up and down the menus of Netflix and
• 59:14
  all of them and some of these quite sort of.
• 59:17
  There was one that says happened upon the other day she said oh
• 59:20
  you'll want to watch that. I went no oh God no it's it's
• 59:23
  all on sand and I immediately get put put off by a any
• 59:27
  anything that sort of scifi where you know it's got some
• 59:30
  convoluted back history of the 7th dynastic ketulhas magic
• 59:35
  powers and and and being all. Poor dentist on sand, I thought.
• 59:41
  I don't want to. You can't watch a lot of current
• 59:43
  day science fiction in on No God.
• 59:45
  Anything. Anything that's got a convoluted
• 59:48
  back history and the and the people's names have got
• 59:50
  apostrophes in and it's got sand.
• 59:51
  It can fuck off. And I look at that and I think
• 59:56
  that should be for me, but I think I'm going to go and watch
• 1:00:00
  Battlefield, you know what I mean?
• 1:00:03
  And I do. It's weird because we say one of
• 1:00:05
  the great things about Doc two is it is.
• 1:00:07
  It makes us expand our horizons and and experience new things
• 1:00:12
  and and. I'll go.
• 1:00:13
  I'll watch Terror of the Zigons for the 90th time.
• 1:00:15
  And you know what? I watched Terror of the Zigons
• 1:00:17
  the other day and I fucking loved it even though I've seen
• 1:00:20
  it a million times. Blessed people thinking.
• 1:00:22
  That was only the 90th time you see so.
• 1:00:29
  But and then because there's so much of Doctor Who and because
• 1:00:32
  there's so much there's the missing bits and and and there's
• 1:00:35
  the archaeology and the you know, I can I can spend my day
• 1:00:39
  trying to find out something about you know, the woman who
• 1:00:44
  played mellion in the Ark and disappeared down a rabbit hole
• 1:00:48
  and and think that today well spent.
• 1:00:51
  Would I have done that with something else if if there had
• 1:00:53
  been something else there instead?
• 1:00:55
  Possibly. But I don't know.
• 1:00:56
  It's that indefinable magic of Doctor Who.
• 1:00:58
  But there's certainly enough to dig deep.
• 1:01:00
  I I saw something on Twitter the other day where somebody was
• 1:01:03
  trying to identify an extra in the cage, the Star Trek pilot
• 1:01:09
  and a few of the IT was on Facebook, I think, and a few
• 1:01:11
  people go, who cares, it's just an extra.
• 1:01:13
  And I was going, well, I'm quite interested now and I don't even
• 1:01:17
  follow Star Trek, so I'm sure I could have cuz I've always
• 1:01:22
  enjoyed next Gen. of DS9 and stuff.
• 1:01:26
  I'm sure if there were enough hours in the day I would be
• 1:01:29
  looking for that actor or trying to identify that extra in in in
• 1:01:34
  episodes of Star Trek because it's big enough and sprawling
• 1:01:37
  enough. And as I said, I've occasionally
• 1:01:40
  disappeared down a rabbit hole of that, even though, you know,
• 1:01:42
  I saw the cage once 20 years ago, but you know it's all
• 1:01:47
  related in it. Don't you worry, I've got a
• 1:01:49
  both. A freshly sprung Buffy podcast
• 1:01:52
  and a year long running Star Trek podcast.
• 1:01:55
  So I'm doing a bit of that work for you.
• 1:01:57
  Beautiful. And the thing, the thing about.
• 1:02:00
  Dog show is, it's like, I really love the books and I really love
• 1:02:03
  the audios and I really love the TV show.
• 1:02:06
  So like, whatever mood, I mean, some dogs, whatever genre I
• 1:02:11
  want, it's all there on the shelf.
• 1:02:13
  You know, like. Yeah, that's the beauty,
• 1:02:16
  doesn't. It it it.
• 1:02:17
  Sort of cases for your every need really.
• 1:02:20
  You call it this sort of engine of.
• 1:02:22
  But that's not an exaggeration. No, no.
• 1:02:26
  And it's amazing. And it and it still manages to
• 1:02:29
  produce, you know? Vast amounts of material, I'm
• 1:02:35
  very well written and produced material, you know.
• 1:02:40
  Well, I've got a couple. More questions here.
• 1:02:42
  I promise you I will get you to bed at some point.
• 1:02:45
  On this side of the morning, well, actually a question I
• 1:02:49
  wanted to ask you and that was about the quite a mass event
• 1:02:54
  that you had recently, yes, and sort of went.
• 1:02:57
  Into making that happen. Well that was the idea of a chap
• 1:03:00
  called John Deere who is he's a TV and film historian and he
• 1:03:08
  does the Quatermas podcast called Bird Cast.
• 1:03:10
  And we met when he asked me to be a guest on that and I met up
• 1:03:14
  with him and he interviewed me about the Quatermas experiment
• 1:03:17
  and we stayed in touch. He's a very nice chap and he's
• 1:03:21
  you know he's he's done a couple of events that he asked me to
• 1:03:24
  take part in and was happy to I am see the the event he did at
• 1:03:28
  the correction to picture house and and Ditto one in Derby as
• 1:03:34
  well. And we we did rehearsed with
• 1:03:35
  unrehearsed readings of a lost Nigel Neal radio play and then a
• 1:03:40
  lost Nigel Neal episode of Out of the unknown and he said well
• 1:03:46
  why don't we do that for the quake mass experiment which is
• 1:03:48
  you know four episodes of which are missing and you know nobody
• 1:03:51
  really is very badly photocopied PDF's of them on the on the on
• 1:03:57
  the DVD but nobody really knows and and and under the script
• 1:04:02
  book but the script book has massive differences from from
• 1:04:05
  the actual camera scripts so nobody really knows them And but
• 1:04:12
  it's his baby and he got to Chris Stinson and Carrie Carrie
• 1:04:16
  Thompson who are great producers of sort of live events in
• 1:04:19
  theater and and and spoke to Alexandra Palace and asked Mark
• 1:04:24
  Gatiss to be involved and I put the scripts together for him
• 1:04:28
  because I think we were all going to do it at one point And
• 1:04:32
  then I I just did it I think and I I threw in the load of casting
• 1:04:37
  suggestions but but you know I was always always sort of on
• 1:04:42
  board and he let me kindly let me play James Fuller love the
• 1:04:47
  the journalist which is a great part.
• 1:04:49
  The part I'd always had my eye on.
• 1:04:51
  So that was nice and and we got some great actors involved
• 1:04:56
  because Mark was involved and because I think people like to
• 1:05:00
  do good projects. And you know, I, you know, I had
• 1:05:03
  a few ideas for people that we could ask and we asked them and
• 1:05:06
  they said yes because we just did it in a day.
• 1:05:08
  You know, we met at Ali Pally at midday and you know we were
• 1:05:11
  performing it at half seven. So there are things we do again,
• 1:05:15
  I think we get one. It was way too long.
• 1:05:17
  We should have started a bit earlier.
• 1:05:18
  We didn't want to start a bit earlier but Ali Pally had put
• 1:05:22
  out 7:30 and then and then wouldn't bring it forward, which
• 1:05:25
  I think they should have done. But there we go.
• 1:05:30
  And it was electric you know and Chris and Carrie and we had a
• 1:05:34
  wonderful act called James Swanson playing the Victor
• 1:05:36
  karoon, the mutating astronaut which is not a great vocal part
• 1:05:40
  but they but he's so good with his body and and and and it
• 1:05:44
  needed somebody who could just do something to be a presence of
• 1:05:48
  this largely dialogue free character.
• 1:05:50
  And he was amazing And and for the climax where we couldn't you
• 1:05:54
  know it was just a script reading.
• 1:05:55
  But they they lit him and he did all this sort of expressionistic
• 1:05:59
  sort of German body horror stuff and his shadow cast a shadow on
• 1:06:03
  the back wall And it was it was all suggestion and it was and it
• 1:06:05
  was brilliant. It was electrifying and it was
• 1:06:08
  wonderful to be a a part of and a dream come true really.
• 1:06:13
  And I had a real crash after it because we've been such a
• 1:06:17
  buildup we've been building up to it for about a year and you
• 1:06:23
  know we we were lucky enough to we were let into Ali Pally and
• 1:06:26
  the studios that they made in on the day of the 18th of July when
• 1:06:30
  the first episode went out that morning we went up to Ali Pally.
• 1:06:34
  We were interviewed by Newsnight and stuff and and wandered
• 1:06:37
  around studios A and B it was where it was done.
• 1:06:40
  So that sort of pinch yourself stuff but that was it was John's
• 1:06:43
  initiative I just helped really I was it was kind kind enough to
• 1:06:47
  let me be involved in the in the process and it it's one of those
• 1:06:53
  really special things that as I was doing it I was like this is
• 1:06:56
  going to be over this time tomorrow.
• 1:06:58
  This is really sad because it's so sort of special.
• 1:07:00
  Make sure you mark this and make sure you enjoy it and try and.
• 1:07:06
  You know, try and soak it up because this is, this is the
• 1:07:08
  stuff, you know, And it was amazing and it was so nice.
• 1:07:11
  And John very kindly let me do a sort of threeminute preamble
• 1:07:14
  where I sort of set the scene and gave a bit of context and
• 1:07:18
  you know, I went out and my mom was in the audience.
• 1:07:22
  And there was a massive round of applause and it it felt really
• 1:07:30
  special and I'm glad my mom and my brother got to see that
• 1:07:33
  because they don't really get any of it really.
• 1:07:38
  And it was and and you know it was so good a mark to to lend
• 1:07:42
  his name to it and I know that you know and and he's he wears
• 1:07:45
  it all very very lightly but it was really it was really
• 1:07:49
  special. We had Kevin McNally in it.
• 1:07:51
  We had Alice Low in it. Alan Cox who was fucking
• 1:07:54
  brilliant. He was so good.
• 1:07:57
  And then and Cheryl is, you know I got some actor friends aboard
• 1:08:01
  and Charlie de Melo from from Corrie was in it and Chez and
• 1:08:05
  Chrissy Bone is just brilliant. And I who I would have in
• 1:08:08
  everything. And then my old mate Adam Riches
• 1:08:10
  who's fantastic and Tom Burgess who was brilliant, absolutely
• 1:08:15
  pitch perfect. Scott Arthur playing a really
• 1:08:17
  difficult part that you did really well.
• 1:08:18
  And then Andre Morell son. Jason Morell was in it.
• 1:08:21
  I mean it was yeah And Dan Starkey who's brilliant voice
• 1:08:24
  man. So it was it was just a dream
• 1:08:27
  really. As I say, there are things that
• 1:08:28
  I would do differently and things that didn't quite work
• 1:08:31
  out on the night, but but considering what it you know
• 1:08:35
  what it was, which was us all getting together on the day.
• 1:08:39
  But yeah, I I wish I could sort of be in that forever.
• 1:08:43
  Forever. I mean, I.
• 1:08:47
  I couldn't make it on the night, but five of my friends were
• 1:08:51
  there and that sort of electrifying feel, I mean, they
• 1:08:54
  were buzzing the day off, so, So whatever you were projecting
• 1:08:59
  out, I think it was being grabbed hold of by the audience
• 1:09:02
  who loved it. Good.
• 1:09:05
  I'm really pleased cuz it was long like they had to, you know,
• 1:09:09
  they had to be very faithful, boiling as well.
• 1:09:13
  And when Mark got there at midday, I'd be there early and I
• 1:09:18
  met him outside and he said you've chosen the hottest day of
• 1:09:22
  the year to full of room, full of science, man.
• 1:09:27
  Yeah, Master of Absolutely. Stank.
• 1:09:32
  But it was. Oh man, it was.
• 1:09:33
  Personal hygiene has come on you.
• 1:09:34
  Know. Yeah, there.
• 1:09:36
  It was special. It was great.
• 1:09:39
  Okay, I'm going to ask you a question now.
• 1:09:41
  I don't. Know how you're going to say
• 1:09:44
  it's. From Mike Fair, he says.
• 1:09:47
  How does Toby feel about being a Doctor Who icon?
• 1:09:51
  Well, I'm not. As I say I'm, you know, it's
• 1:09:58
  it's it's never been an aspiration of mine to be in
• 1:10:03
  inverted commas an important Doctor Who fan fan.
• 1:10:06
  As I say, I think that is a a ludicrous thing to think of
• 1:10:10
  anyone as being and certainly to to aspire to be.
• 1:10:13
  And if if anybody were to think that's about themselves, I would
• 1:10:16
  think them to be ludicrous people.
• 1:10:20
  I don't think of myself as I I. Look, I'm.
• 1:10:25
  I'm I consider myself extremely fortunate to have.
• 1:10:30
  Done the documentaries and done the commentaries and I'm you
• 1:10:33
  know I've worked worked hard on those things and and I and I
• 1:10:36
  hope I you know work above and beyond the Call of Duty if I'm
• 1:10:40
  if I'm on a project. I think anyone that that that
• 1:10:43
  that that has worked with me would would say that you know
• 1:10:45
  I've I've helped out more than just turning up to you know to
• 1:10:49
  to do the tits and teeth. You know a lot of the behind the
• 1:10:51
  scenes stuff in fact on some of the DV D's and Blu rays that I'm
• 1:10:55
  not actually on. You know I've still helped out
• 1:11:00
  with as it were and as I say there's a whole network of
• 1:11:03
  people who who who do quite a lot of work that is you know
• 1:11:07
  unpaid and uncredited in order that these things be as good as
• 1:11:11
  possible but but I'm you know I'm just a I'm a I'm a Doctor
• 1:11:19
  Who fan I'm a glory I'm a I'm a glorified Doctor Who fan.
• 1:11:22
  I don't see that as This is why I find this slightly baffling
• 1:11:26
  what you're it's very flattering and you're and that's always
• 1:11:29
  nice to talk to you and as I say I'm a vain actor so talking
• 1:11:32
  about myself is is is no trouble but I've I I've I've I feel
• 1:11:36
  slightly sort of fortunate because I'm not I'm I'm not part
• 1:11:41
  of Doctor I've never been in Doctor Who.
• 1:11:42
  I'm not, you know, I think Avoid is more interesting than me
• 1:11:45
  because Avoid has been in Doctor Who and you know, I can't escape
• 1:11:50
  with the fact that I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not part of that.
• 1:11:55
  I'm part of the footnotes, maybe all the periphery of it.
• 1:12:00
  But so I I reject, I reject the basis of Mike's very sweetly
• 1:12:10
  phrased question. It's it's funny because there's
• 1:12:16
  a little and this isn't sort of false modesty either.
• 1:12:18
  I put you know, I I, I, I, you know, I I I hope I present stuff
• 1:12:24
  well. I think I'm, I think I'm quite
• 1:12:26
  good at dealing with the the sort of slightly emotional
• 1:12:28
  situations when I'm interviewing people.
• 1:12:31
  I think I I think people feel relaxed.
• 1:12:36
  You know. And I yeah I think I'm okay.
• 1:12:39
  I think I'm all right at that. I think I I know there's been
• 1:12:41
  certain situations that could have been stickier that I've
• 1:12:44
  that I've managed to make okay. So you know I'm not going oh I'm
• 1:12:48
  terribly I'm not very good at this stuff and I you know and
• 1:12:51
  I'm and I'm I would say that you know some people who might you
• 1:12:57
  know point out a mistake I've made halfway through a a four
• 1:13:01
  hour commentary session go yeah. What What about the other four
• 1:13:05
  hours where I tell you loads of stuff you didn't know?
• 1:13:07
  Give me a break. It's it's unrehearsed.
• 1:13:10
  You don't know what you're going to be asked by the people you
• 1:13:13
  know. And I, you know, I would say
• 1:13:18
  it's it's probably not as easy as I might make it look if in my
• 1:13:22
  own defense if you're inclined to be critical of some of some
• 1:13:26
  of that stuff. But why am I saying that?
• 1:13:31
  What am I talking about? But you're not being a doctor.
• 1:13:34
  Who icon which is? I personally agree with it's
• 1:13:38
  not. No it's it's so yes.
• 1:13:44
  I'm not saying, you know and I suppose you know it's a very
• 1:13:50
  pleasant surprise when I've, you know, I've been used by more
• 1:13:53
  than one producer which is usually a good sign if you're
• 1:13:55
  any employed by the same person at the same time.
• 1:13:58
  It's just because that person likes you you know.
• 1:14:00
  So that's that's all quite nice. I've made myself useful and yeah
• 1:14:05
  I'm you know I'm I'm reasonable in front of a Cameron.
• 1:14:08
  I'm quick, I'm quick and I'm cheap, and I think those are
• 1:14:11
  underrated, underrated attributes in the professional
• 1:14:14
  world. But you know and I've been I've
• 1:14:23
  been very lucky that people I think with low budget stuff as
• 1:14:26
  well go alluded to this before with with the acting.
• 1:14:30
  You know they know I've done the job and I've done it quickly and
• 1:14:34
  I've done it without much fuss. So you know why risk somebody
• 1:14:37
  else. I think that's that's you know
• 1:14:39
  because there are plenty of people I'm sure who could well
• 1:14:42
  people have you know moderated commentaries very well and and
• 1:14:45
  there's there's loads of Doctor Who on stage interviewers who
• 1:14:48
  are who are great at you know people like you know Robert Dick
• 1:14:53
  and Steven Schapansky and all those people.
• 1:14:55
  You know there's lots of very very capable in the people in
• 1:14:58
  the in the in the worlds of of of Doctor Who I I yes.
• 1:15:03
  So it's I'm I'm just I'm very lucky I I guess.
• 1:15:08
  But I don't see it as I I just see myself as a if if I if I saw
• 1:15:16
  me on the on the Doctor Who DV. D's and Blu rays and stuff.
• 1:15:22
  I wouldn't think that's an icon of Doctor Who.
• 1:15:24
  I think, oh, it's that bloke. I wish I was doing that.
• 1:15:29
  So I don't know. It's yeah, I don't know how do I
• 1:15:34
  answer that question. I'm not.
• 1:15:35
  But that's nice, James. Says no.
• 1:15:45
  Just tell him he's wonderful. So you're wonderful.
• 1:15:49
  To to not to labor the point, but I'd like to say like your
• 1:15:56
  easy way with the actors, the interviews that you put out.
• 1:16:00
  Where I've learned so much, the book that you put out, which for
• 1:16:05
  me redefines sort of critically how people can pull apart and
• 1:16:11
  sort of dissect Doctor Who. Your performance is in Big
• 1:16:14
  Finish. But most importantly, your
• 1:16:17
  podcast, which you know, I've, I've shared you in the past that
• 1:16:21
  you know I have very dark days and it's company for me, but
• 1:16:25
  it's not just company, it's. Well researched.
• 1:16:29
  It's fascinating. It's engaging.
• 1:16:31
  It's funny. I don't think any of those
• 1:16:34
  things are to be sort of sniffed at, you know?
• 1:16:37
  And so, so I'm, I'm going to push away from this because I I
• 1:16:40
  know how British you are and I know how averse you are to a
• 1:16:45
  compliment. But I did feel the need to say
• 1:16:47
  that before I ask you my very last question.
• 1:16:53
  Yes. Well thank you.
• 1:16:57
  It's the the the bit that made me most chuffed there was when
• 1:17:00
  you said the performance is a big finish because you know at
• 1:17:03
  the end of the day I'm I'm you know my lifelong dream was to be
• 1:17:08
  was to be an actor and so to have acted in you know audio
• 1:17:14
  Doctor Who's is you know that that to me feels sort of.
• 1:17:24
  Slightly that's That's not me being a fan.
• 1:17:26
  Do you know what I mean? The rest of it is all an an
• 1:17:30
  adjunct or a development of me being a fan.
• 1:17:33
  And I take it's difficult to take professional pride in being
• 1:17:38
  a fan because I'm just a fan. It's my hobby.
• 1:17:41
  It's my hobby that I've been lucky enough to convert into
• 1:17:46
  something that that has sort of performative offshoots but
• 1:17:50
  nonetheless it's still kind of my hobby when I'm when I'm doing
• 1:17:53
  stuff on the I do a bit of you know I'm I'm a Doctor Who
• 1:17:57
  consultant on some of the animations which I think is a
• 1:18:00
  wonderful credit that they've now reduced to consultant
• 1:18:03
  because Charles Norton thought it was silly to have Doctor Who
• 1:18:06
  consultant which I thought was really funny but I don't feel
• 1:18:11
  like I'm doing a job do you know what I mean?
• 1:18:12
  I feel like I'm just, you know, they bugged me a couple of quid
• 1:18:16
  to you know, make sure the credits are done properly or you
• 1:18:20
  know, or that that that that that they've written to the
• 1:18:22
  right actors for the royalties and all that.
• 1:18:25
  That sort of stuff. That's just sort of, that's just
• 1:18:27
  that's just stuff I'd be either happy to sort of furkle about
• 1:18:31
  doing. Anyway.
• 1:18:32
  That's all part of me my the podcast is me being a fan.
• 1:18:35
  I don't. I try and make it good because
• 1:18:37
  I'm, I don't like to put out anything that's sort of
• 1:18:40
  halfhearted, you know? So I'll pay for a theme tune,
• 1:18:45
  make sure it's done on the proper mic and I'll, you know,
• 1:18:48
  try and edit it properly and all that sort of thing.
• 1:18:50
  That's because I I want stuff to be good.
• 1:18:53
  I wanna, I don't wanna put out anything half hearted, but it's
• 1:18:56
  still, it's still just me being a fan.
• 1:19:00
  And I mean, who cares what Doctor Who fans got to say?
• 1:19:04
  I took, you know, me, obviously. I I'm not sure you can
• 1:19:09
  understand like the impact. That.
• 1:19:12
  Podcast can. Have on somebody like in a in a
• 1:19:15
  bad place having a bad time that distraction that sort of warm
• 1:19:20
  voice all of that. And I'm you must have because
• 1:19:23
  I've had people come to me about my podcast saying those things
• 1:19:26
  and I guess that yours be vastly superior to mine.
• 1:19:29
  So you must have had some some very positive feedback in that.
• 1:19:35
  I mean I talked before about about realizing that the sense
• 1:19:40
  of humor of moths being quite positive and quite benign was
• 1:19:43
  was an eye opener to me. And then it was Rob Sherman's
• 1:19:46
  idea that running through corridors be a a positive
• 1:19:50
  assessment of any story, trying to ring the positives.
• 1:19:53
  And so then when I was doing these podcasts, it was the idea
• 1:19:57
  of all. I think Lawrence Clark maybe
• 1:19:59
  gave me that idea of the sort of quest element to it.
• 1:20:01
  I think I was just going to do it well.
• 1:20:03
  My original plan, My original plan for the The Commentary
• 1:20:07
  podcast. It was for me to do it with the
• 1:20:09
  dog, I remember, yeah. And for me to sort of have this
• 1:20:13
  improvised comedy comma fuck me, that would have been.
• 1:20:16
  I mean. I'd love you to think how long
• 1:20:19
  you could have neutral. My God.
• 1:20:23
  I do actually have. I did try it with the Crotons I
• 1:20:25
  think, but anyway, I wonder if I could get out as an extra
• 1:20:29
  please. But again, as with you know,
• 1:20:33
  I've said in other interviews that the original version of
• 1:20:35
  moths was much more convoluted and had jokes working backwards
• 1:20:39
  and all that sort of thing. You know keep it simple stupid
• 1:20:42
  and actually pairing it down and make it simpler.
• 1:20:44
  But nonetheless having that that questing element where you need
• 1:20:46
  an end game. And so again I sort of fell into
• 1:20:50
  the well let's let's do the the positive thing and I have had
• 1:20:53
  some feedback where people said you know I quite like it when
• 1:20:55
  you get cross about stuff it's it doesn't have to all be sort
• 1:20:58
  of and I don't I don't ever lie, you know if I'm struggle to say
• 1:21:01
  something nice I will. I will be honest about that and
• 1:21:04
  I'm not afraid to say when a bit doesn't quite work I'm not going
• 1:21:06
  to I'm not going to pretend that you know that that act is giving
• 1:21:11
  a good performance when they're not.
• 1:21:12
  So that special effect is good when it isn't but I will try and
• 1:21:15
  find some beauty in it. But again it's from going from
• 1:21:21
  being you know thinking being cynical and you know talk about
• 1:21:25
  how shit in the world is which which again is is quite rife in
• 1:21:29
  my profession to to actually finding and and and and the
• 1:21:34
  value that is placed on cynicism and snideness and all of that
• 1:21:40
  and and finding as I get older I value people like that less and
• 1:21:43
  I value more people that go out of the way to to make people
• 1:21:47
  feel good or feel happy or feel special when I try to now my
• 1:21:50
  philosophy in life is very simple now I you know I'm not
• 1:21:53
  I'm not a I'm not a this probably come across in this
• 1:21:56
  interview I'm not a particularly happy person I find it I I find
• 1:22:00
  it a struggle I'd always I'd always have and and that's why I
• 1:22:05
  fill my my life with with sort of endeavoring creativity
• 1:22:09
  because I'm in a in a happier place when there's a
• 1:22:12
  performative element or or or or or or or or something to sort of
• 1:22:19
  make the noises go away if you if you like which which
• 1:22:22
  creativity does or research does you know anything you've talked
• 1:22:27
  about you know the some people you use do exercise.
• 1:22:30
  I use booze for for very long time.
• 1:22:32
  Something to distract from the the those those bits that sort
• 1:22:36
  of gnarl at the back of your head and and I I found, well, I
• 1:22:43
  actually find it quite now. If if somebody does something I
• 1:22:46
  like I will send them a message. Or or if I noticed something
• 1:22:54
  bad's happened to somebody or that their day could be improved
• 1:22:58
  If I just noticed it I'll I'll send them.
• 1:23:00
  Just sending somebody a Facebook message for no other reason than
• 1:23:03
  to make their day a bit better is is is much more rewarding
• 1:23:07
  than going yeah lift shit or or whatever do you know what I
• 1:23:11
  mean. And and I always think of Paul
• 1:23:16
  Eddington's interview when he was very poorly and they said
• 1:23:19
  what would you like your epitaph to be.
• 1:23:21
  And he very humbly said he was a Quaker, that you could sometimes
• 1:23:23
  learn from the Quakers. But I'm I'm too vain.
• 1:23:27
  I think he he, he said he wanted his epitaph to be he did very
• 1:23:33
  little harm, which I thought was a beautiful beautifully today.
• 1:23:37
  As I said, I'm slightly too conceited.
• 1:23:38
  I want more than that. I want, I want people.
• 1:23:41
  I want people to be to be fond. I want people to be.
• 1:23:43
  I want people to start with people.
• 1:23:45
  I just want people to have a great time at my funeral.
• 1:23:48
  I want people to be in despair. I want people to be throwing
• 1:23:51
  themselves off cliffs. But I if, if, if somebody, if my
• 1:23:57
  feeling is if if if somebody encounters me either viral
• 1:24:02
  podcast or in person or, you know, via an e-mail or whatever,
• 1:24:07
  or or through some work that I have produced.
• 1:24:11
  If if I if I can't make their day any better, at least don't
• 1:24:15
  make it any worse. But try and make it better is is
• 1:24:19
  not a it's. It's really hard to fulfill your
• 1:24:22
  ambitions and to have professional satisfaction and
• 1:24:24
  to, as I say, to make the noises go away.
• 1:24:27
  But it's it's actually not that hard to make somebody else's day
• 1:24:32
  a bit better even even to a even to a tiny degree like that nice
• 1:24:36
  lady at the train station who said happy birthday Doctor Who
• 1:24:39
  fans. I've remembered that How many
• 1:24:41
  years later, you know she could be dead now?
• 1:24:44
  I don't know. I hope she's happy.
• 1:24:45
  But those are those are the actual things that you remember.
• 1:24:51
  So and I have had people say and I find that very, I mean as I
• 1:24:56
  say it baffles me. Well, does it?
• 1:24:59
  Because I put it out there. So I can't.
• 1:25:00
  I can't think it's pointless. You can.
• 1:25:02
  It's weird, isn't it, with performers, because I think you
• 1:25:06
  always worry about about being conceited and arrogant, but you
• 1:25:10
  have this drive to show off. You know what?
• 1:25:13
  What if? But I I think sometimes people
• 1:25:17
  read that as, as again, as as people being sort of full of
• 1:25:20
  themselves or whatever. But I don't think people would
• 1:25:22
  have to test if they were worth anything in front of an audience
• 1:25:27
  every night if they were secure in the knowledge that they were,
• 1:25:29
  you know, you know, I think sometimes when people say
• 1:25:32
  comedians, oh, he thinks he's funny, I think no, most
• 1:25:34
  comedians just hope they're funny.
• 1:25:36
  If you think you're funny, you don't need to put it to the.
• 1:25:39
  You don't need to put it to the test every night.
• 1:25:42
  And I can't remember what question I was answering.
• 1:25:46
  I don't think you even asked me a question.
• 1:25:47
  See, this is the problem. It's just fucking noise.
• 1:25:50
  But yes, if if I think as I as I say as I get older the less
• 1:25:55
  cynical and the more +1 can be. And if people like that.
• 1:25:59
  I met cat Armitage for the first time who'd given a who'd given a
• 1:26:02
  brilliant contribution to my my podcast who's not got such a
• 1:26:05
  lovely energy. And I met her for the first time
• 1:26:08
  at the Blue dot festival where I dragged her there to to talk on
• 1:26:13
  a panel and she's taking ages to get across there and all weather
• 1:26:17
  was muddy and it was crappy and and anyway blessed.
• 1:26:21
  I felt so guilty for dragging all those people there and and
• 1:26:25
  she was so lovely about moths at my Doctor Who scarf which she'd
• 1:26:29
  come across at a time where where it actually meant that it
• 1:26:33
  meant something to her. And and I I find that you know
• 1:26:36
  really fattering and and really nice but that's not why I did
• 1:26:39
  it. You know that's not that's not
• 1:26:41
  what it was for. But if that's happened by
• 1:26:44
  accident, that's great. And and I suppose that's what
• 1:26:46
  I'm, I'm mindful of when I'm doing these podcasts, is that.
• 1:26:53
  Yeah. If you if you put something
• 1:26:55
  that's sort of joyful out there, it doesn't mean I'm a joyful
• 1:26:58
  person or I'm an optimistic person.
• 1:26:59
  But if you if you fucking try you it might just it might just
• 1:27:04
  work and and and and if it if it yeah if it makes people happy
• 1:27:10
  that's that's that's good. Yes, that.
• 1:27:14
  Wasn't the that you? I don't think you even asked a
• 1:27:16
  question there. I would.
• 1:27:18
  Like to respond to? That though, because what I
• 1:27:20
  think the one person that I know.
• 1:27:23
  That when they hear your voice, you know they groan.
• 1:27:28
  It's my offer off and that's because.
• 1:27:31
  And this is no word of a lie. At 4:00 in the morning, when I
• 1:27:35
  can't sleep, I put on happy times and places because it's
• 1:27:41
  your voice that gives me a lot of comfort.
• 1:27:44
  When I'm trying to chase away my demons and I don't wanna
• 1:27:48
  overthink in the middle of the night, I'll put on a Doctor Who
• 1:27:51
  commentary of happy times and places and it provides me with
• 1:27:54
  enormous comfort. Can I ask why?
• 1:27:58
  Because as I said it's a bizarre cuz it's been it's had much
• 1:28:02
  better sort of responses than I would have expected.
• 1:28:08
  It's a funny one because I I mean I just it was deliberately
• 1:28:11
  designed that I didn't have to do any research for it because
• 1:28:13
  the other ones take you know indefinable magic takes a lot of
• 1:28:16
  writing and I really have to be in the right mood to do that.
• 1:28:19
  Too much information takes a lot of research and a lot of
• 1:28:22
  writing. So I needed one that I could
• 1:28:24
  just switch on record. I don't edit there or any.
• 1:28:26
  I just bang them on and do. So I think I, you know, I go off
• 1:28:31
  into, I think, I think I start some anecdotes that I don't
• 1:28:35
  finish. I start some observations that I
• 1:28:37
  don't finish. Isn't that really annoying?
• 1:28:40
  No, not at all, not at all. And it's.
• 1:28:42
  The personal anecdotes that you bring to it, it's your voice as
• 1:28:46
  well. Your voice is very calming to
• 1:28:49
  listen to. But the other thing is, what I
• 1:28:50
  like about yours, you see, is you've got a different guest
• 1:28:52
  every time and it's the dynamic between you because it's two
• 1:28:55
  different voices. I'm doing something at the
• 1:28:57
  moment. You know, I I was I was pushing
• 1:29:00
  for 1/2 hour running time and they went no, no, because it's
• 1:29:02
  just going to be you talking. You can only have 15 minutes.
• 1:29:05
  I thought, fucking hell, they haven't heard some of my
• 1:29:07
  podcasts, said. The trouble is, though, is.
• 1:29:10
  When you have a different guest on each time, yeah, and I'm not
• 1:29:14
  suggesting it does, but the quality can vary depending on
• 1:29:17
  your chemistry, like guess or whatever.
• 1:29:19
  There is a consistency to happy times and places that I love as
• 1:29:23
  well and. You yes, you do go and you do
• 1:29:28
  have foreign force and you you do expose vulnerabilities and
• 1:29:32
  all all of this combines because it is you and it's your reaction
• 1:29:36
  to Doctor Who. It's a massive comfort.
• 1:29:40
  Yeah. So you can by the way all the
• 1:29:41
  other all the other compliments, but you can't win that one.
• 1:29:46
  Oh good, I did really calm. Well, I'll say this.
• 1:29:51
  You make my day better. And and that's why I'm here
• 1:29:56
  today. Well.
• 1:29:58
  Well, you and you're always very nice.
• 1:30:00
  It's always nice to get a message from you on Facebook and
• 1:30:02
  we chat away, don't we? Sometimes it's lovely.
• 1:30:05
  That's the beautiful thing about this.
• 1:30:08
  You know, I think that I think the toxic end of fandom gets a
• 1:30:11
  lot of press, and rightly so, because we always, we always,
• 1:30:14
  you know, worry about the things that we don't like.
• 1:30:16
  But there's actually huge amounts of positivity.
• 1:30:19
  And you know, I have this social network.
• 1:30:22
  I have to spend quite a lot of time here.
• 1:30:24
  I'm quite full on here, you know, at home and you know it's.
• 1:30:31
  You know the amount of time that home life takes doing things but
• 1:30:34
  you know our partners disabled and so that takes up a lot of
• 1:30:37
  time and energy and stuff. So it's it's it's it's lovely
• 1:30:40
  that that you know on your phone you've you know WhatsApp will
• 1:30:43
  ping and it's it's it's Mikey from from the quiz of Raselon or
• 1:30:48
  Facebook or Ping and it's a message from you and you just go
• 1:30:51
  oh I'm going to enjoy this little back and forth about
• 1:30:53
  whatever it is that we're talking about And that's you
• 1:30:56
  know I find and actually I find that easier than.
• 1:31:00
  You know social situations, I'm not great in in.
• 1:31:03
  I mean, again you probably wouldn't know that if you saw me
• 1:31:06
  in the pub, but. But but it I I do find it
• 1:31:11
  difficult. I find it more difficult now
• 1:31:12
  that I don't drink either. So I've had to sort of change
• 1:31:17
  people, places and things. And so the Internet has been
• 1:31:23
  actually very, very useful for that as well because it's
• 1:31:29
  easier. And also, you know, when you
• 1:31:32
  e-mail somebody, it's not like phoning them up, is it?
• 1:31:33
  Because they can answer when they want.
• 1:31:37
  Although that means that actor I emailed on Wednesday who hasn't
• 1:31:40
  replied. And thinking he hates me, he
• 1:31:43
  told me to e-mail. I've got his number as well.
• 1:31:47
  Do I text him? Do I wait for him to e-mail?
• 1:31:49
  Has it bounced? Do I need to e-mail him again
• 1:31:52
  from a different address? You know all of that?
• 1:31:54
  Well, that, that is the other. Wonderful thing about Docs Hill.
• 1:31:57
  We've lorded Docs Hills to the High Heaven in the last six
• 1:31:59
  hours. But the one of the greatest
• 1:32:02
  things about it is it does bring people together that would never
• 1:32:05
  have been under any other circumstances.
• 1:32:08
  That's a glorious thing as well. Yeah, yeah, it is.
• 1:32:12
  Are you? Are you bold?
• 1:32:13
  Enough to take on my final question.
• 1:32:15
  Oh yes, we've taken. On all the others, sorry, it's
• 1:32:21
  from the wonderful David, It's David GP on Trip.
• 1:32:25
  Yes, he's been on the missing. Episodes Podcast Recently during
• 1:32:29
  The 10th Planet he's got his own YouTube channel where he's great
• 1:32:32
  and his and his tweets are always fascinating.
• 1:32:34
  They did a brilliant thing about the 10th, but the the air ducts
• 1:32:37
  that Ben is in in The 10th planet, which made you look at
• 1:32:39
  the set in a completely different way.
• 1:32:41
  No other pandem as scrutiny. Like this?
• 1:32:44
  Absolutely no. He's great, So David.
• 1:32:47
  Asks Of all the things you've done, Sorry Is all the things
• 1:32:50
  you've been a part of professionally?
• 1:32:52
  Who Comedy, Performing. What is the piece of work that
• 1:32:56
  you're most proud of? And which one has had the
• 1:32:59
  biggest impact? That was quite a nice way to
• 1:33:02
  round this off. Well I mean the one that's had
• 1:33:06
  the biggest impact is undoubtedly Moth say by Doctor
• 1:33:09
  Who scarf which you know started as a as an idea for for doing an
• 1:33:16
  Edinburgh show and was timed very well and and did Beth and I
• 1:33:22
  ever thought, you know I thought some people might come and see
• 1:33:25
  it might get a bit of traction but it got a radio spin off and
• 1:33:29
  it went to the West End and it took me all over the world and
• 1:33:35
  it was, it was good. I mean, it's funny because, you
• 1:33:41
  know, I I do have it and and part of me thinks, oh, I'd like
• 1:33:44
  to put it out there, but actually there's.
• 1:33:47
  Nothing in it that's offensive, but it's still of its time.
• 1:33:51
  In a way. It's funny, you know it.
• 1:33:53
  It is now. It's nearly 20 years old, for
• 1:33:55
  goodness sake. But but it and and and a lot of
• 1:34:03
  credit of that has to has to go to mark my director who you know
• 1:34:06
  was the one that said you know don't swear in it don't do any
• 1:34:08
  jokes that are about just about Doctor Who that don't reflect to
• 1:34:12
  somehow to your personal story. And he said simplify it and
• 1:34:16
  don't tell the jokes backwards and and have the time travel
• 1:34:19
  element that I had in it and all of that.
• 1:34:21
  And we have this whole bit that was the complete another history
• 1:34:23
  of Doctor Who in 15 minutes. That was a a sort of
• 1:34:27
  conversation I had with myself that was hilarious to to the
• 1:34:32
  first couple of times I did it and to me and him and actually.
• 1:34:38
  We abandoned the whole of that and it became and it and it
• 1:34:42
  became this this linear, you know, Hero's journey kind of
• 1:34:47
  story if you like. Again, keep it simple.
• 1:34:49
  Stupid that was accidentally touched.
• 1:34:55
  A nerve with a far more people than we thought and it was the
• 1:35:00
  decision as well to make no joke only understandable to Doctor
• 1:35:03
  Who fans and that was something that happened in the in the
• 1:35:06
  course of us doing it. So we you know we we we did sort
• 1:35:09
  of tear up ideas and start again and it was you know there was a
• 1:35:12
  there was a process of of of of a lot of previewing and stuff.
• 1:35:15
  So it was hard one but I I still was quite surprised.
• 1:35:18
  We got a four-star review on the first day and we were off and
• 1:35:24
  you know that first day we had they basically producer said
• 1:35:27
  look critics want to come and if they don't come tonight you
• 1:35:31
  might not get them until three weeks in the run because they
• 1:35:34
  want to come tonight because a lot of established acts don't
• 1:35:36
  let critics in on the first night.
• 1:35:38
  So they'll you know they'll come to you now but that doesn't mean
• 1:35:41
  that they'll be able to come to you tomorrow if you say no.
• 1:35:44
  So I said OK and I put the word around and said because I told
• 1:35:47
  about 8 tickets, you know, and said to friends, I have critics
• 1:35:51
  in tonight, please some of you come to the audience, so.
• 1:35:55
  Robin and Sarah Milliken were in that first show.
• 1:35:59
  Because they were mates of mine who'd come to just be bodies in
• 1:36:05
  the audience. So I got to go to sort of
• 1:36:07
  celebrity audience. I mean, Sarah wasn't Sarah
• 1:36:10
  Milliken. Wasn't Sarah Milliken then?
• 1:36:11
  You know, this was very early in her career, but she, bless her,
• 1:36:14
  she came to that first show and. And and I was unknown to the
• 1:36:22
  world of Doctor Who. You know my Doctor Who found
• 1:36:24
  him. It was the love that dare not
• 1:36:25
  speak its name. I did as I said I didn't really
• 1:36:27
  have any Doctor Who found friends.
• 1:36:29
  I didn't really particularly wasn't wasn't sure I really
• 1:36:32
  wanted any seems mad now. I love the fact that most of my
• 1:36:37
  friends now are Doctor Who fans and and the people whose company
• 1:36:40
  I seek now really are are Doctor Who fans and even my my friends
• 1:36:44
  here and I want to go around the park.
• 1:36:46
  I walk with Tom Burgess who's a he's a comedian but he's a he's
• 1:36:49
  a Doc 2 fan. I go for Curry with a few boys
• 1:36:52
  who are who are Doc two fans thanks to Rick the policeman who
• 1:36:56
  stopped me once I got out of his police car when I just finished
• 1:37:02
  doing a gig in Preston. The last gig before Christmas
• 1:37:04
  got the train back was walking home.
• 1:37:06
  I would I'd warned Doc 2 scarf because it was snowing and I
• 1:37:08
  thought it was fun and it was coming to Christmas and I
• 1:37:10
  thought fuck it. Yeah, and and I was just getting
• 1:37:14
  to share his flat. This police car stopped.
• 1:37:15
  This bloke gets out this policeman and he says I just
• 1:37:20
  wanna thank you for all the work you do on the Doctor Who Tvt.
• 1:37:23
  And I was just made my Christmas and then when I did the podcast
• 1:37:27
  where I was trying to find the kids from Cole Hill School and I
• 1:37:30
  didn't find the Kenneth Williams guy.
• 1:37:32
  It was him that emailed and said my partner knows his widow
• 1:37:37
  because she runs the local pub to her mom and dad.
• 1:37:40
  So I mean of all the people, I had about 70 listeners to my
• 1:37:43
  podcast at that point and he was one of them.
• 1:37:46
  And so he's become a great mate now.
• 1:37:48
  Rick, Rick. And so I see him and and and
• 1:37:52
  Peter Crocker seems to follow me about the country because when
• 1:37:55
  I'm when I moved to London he moved to London.
• 1:37:57
  And then when I got divorced and had to fuck off back here he
• 1:38:01
  eventually left London too and and is now in this sort of neck
• 1:38:04
  of the woods and he he sort of rescued me when my when my
• 1:38:10
  marriage fell apart and stuff and and yeah yeah he did he
• 1:38:13
  rescued me and so he's I see Peter a lot and then I love you
• 1:38:18
  know I look forward to going to the BFI and seeing people like
• 1:38:21
  you and and that's you know if I have a social occasion it's
• 1:38:25
  probably that you know so and that's all as a result of moths
• 1:38:35
  like my Doctor Who scarf but. What I think, why I'm proud of
• 1:38:40
  it is because it wasn't good. Because it was a Doctor Who
• 1:38:45
  show. It was a good show that just
• 1:38:48
  happened to be about Doctor Who if it had been a nurky geeky.
• 1:38:54
  What I wanted it to be originally a party political
• 1:38:56
  broadcast for Doctor Who. It would have had a very short
• 1:38:59
  shelf life and it would appeal to a very small number of
• 1:39:01
  people, but I think it did a bit bit more than that and it.
• 1:39:06
  Wasn't deliberate. It happened by mistake.
• 1:39:10
  I didn't plan it to be that way. And it happened by a sort of
• 1:39:13
  series of osmosis and turned into something that, yeah, I
• 1:39:17
  think really worked. And wouldn't work as well.
• 1:39:21
  Now it was time and the timing was good as well.
• 1:39:24
  So was that what was the two one I'm proud of?
• 1:39:29
  So I was proud. Of and so I was just listening.
• 1:39:33
  Then I'll. Put my pad aside, I briefly
• 1:39:37
  forgot what the question was as well.
• 1:39:39
  Proud. Of and had the biggest impact.
• 1:39:45
  Oh God. Well I I suppose that's both.
• 1:39:47
  Is it oh God, is anything else I've has anything I've done had
• 1:39:52
  any. I mean that that had an impact
• 1:39:55
  on that had a huge impact on my life and my career.
• 1:39:59
  It's funny because I I had worried about being the
• 1:40:04
  declaring my love for Doctor Who because I thought, well, if I,
• 1:40:08
  you know, if I show that, I'm a fan.
• 1:40:11
  Will that stop me? Getting employed in certain
• 1:40:15
  areas and I thought, well, I'm not getting employed in those
• 1:40:17
  areas anyway, so so I may as I may as well.
• 1:40:23
  I hate to break it you, but I think the.
• 1:40:25
  Secret is definitely out now. I think the secret is.
• 1:40:28
  Is out. So yeah so I I mean I think that
• 1:40:36
  covers. I think that covers both, but
• 1:40:39
  that's not to denigrate other things.
• 1:40:42
  I am. I am proud of Looking For Peter
• 1:40:45
  because I think nothing else had been quite like that and in in
• 1:40:50
  in the range and again it worked better than we could have
• 1:40:53
  imagined and again. Yeah.
• 1:40:55
  The idea was mine, but but but it was.
• 1:40:56
  It was. It was.
• 1:40:57
  It wouldn't have been the same I had as Chris and Richard, not
• 1:41:01
  weaved their magic into that. But I'm quite.
• 1:41:05
  I am quite proud of. Of of that as as well.
• 1:41:09
  I I like the I like the Who's Doctor Who.
• 1:41:13
  Revisited I think we did something really interesting
• 1:41:16
  there. I think we really pushed the
• 1:41:17
  boat out and the fact that it's so niche.
• 1:41:20
  A doctor. A documentary on the first
• 1:41:22
  documentary made that doctor, which again, I I didn't actually
• 1:41:26
  think. I didn't think it was
• 1:41:29
  particularly. Good idea.
• 1:41:31
  I didn't think we'd be able to say that much.
• 1:41:32
  That was interesting and I didn't think viewers would be
• 1:41:36
  that. Interested.
• 1:41:38
  But actually, again, it's a connection to those people.
• 1:41:40
  There's something very humbling about meeting as adults, those
• 1:41:44
  people you saw as kids. That's there's always something,
• 1:41:47
  I think, because the kid is kind of.
• 1:41:50
  Gone. But he's sort of there and makes
• 1:41:53
  you sort of think about life and and again the fact that they
• 1:41:56
  were all delighted and I love the fact that the the kid had
• 1:41:59
  been really dissing of Doctor Who in the documentary as a
• 1:42:03
  grown up was really lovely and positive and he was really I
• 1:42:07
  wish my younger self hadn't been like that.
• 1:42:08
  I think Doctor Who's great and I think this is marvelous and it
• 1:42:10
  was really nice to go oh good, he's lost.
• 1:42:12
  He's lost that cynicism and he's a really nice and open and
• 1:42:15
  positive guy. And and the the yeah so quite a
• 1:42:21
  few of the DVD things I'm I'm I'm I'm proud of but but I think
• 1:42:28
  and and as an actor I did a production of accidental.
• 1:42:32
  Death and anarchist at the Edinburgh Fringe.
• 1:42:34
  That went really well and I thought would lead to brilliant
• 1:42:37
  things because we got really good reviews.
• 1:42:39
  But I didn't realize you're supposed to network and invite
• 1:42:42
  agents yourself and. Midsummer Night's Dream at the
• 1:42:47
  Royal Exchange in which I only played Snout and The Wall but
• 1:42:52
  they are they are they're good parts.
• 1:42:53
  They're funny parts but that was a company of really good actors
• 1:42:57
  and it was a really good production and it was a really
• 1:42:59
  happy time and I I felt like a proper actor for for probably
• 1:43:04
  the first time and and it's still a job I remember very,
• 1:43:08
  very fondly and and and and I love all the people who who are
• 1:43:13
  in that and I'm still in touch with.
• 1:43:14
  With with pretty much all of them.
• 1:43:16
  Although sadly we we lost our bottom.
• 1:43:18
  Lovely actor called Tom Hodgkins who who died a couple years ago
• 1:43:24
  and it was easy with somebody from Doctor Who in it.
• 1:43:28
  One of the old fairies was played by the guy who gets
• 1:43:30
  nudged by the bad century in episode three he was an extra in
• 1:43:35
  the time Warrior Andy Abrams. Anyway, so yes, all of those,
• 1:43:41
  but I'm I'm still looking forward.
• 1:43:44
  I'm still looking forward to the thing I will be proudest of and
• 1:43:46
  make the most impact, but for now, moths will do.
• 1:43:50
  God I do go on you I. Could have just said I could
• 1:43:53
  have just said moths at my Doctor Who's got and shut the
• 1:43:55
  fuck up for 15 minutes. I'll never convince you.
• 1:44:01
  This is why we love you. I I just want to throw.
• 1:44:05
  In there as well on your behalf. Because you you mentioned as an
• 1:44:08
  actor and as a comedian and as a person, I think you should be
• 1:44:14
  very proud. Of your podcast as well and of
• 1:44:18
  the community that you built out there and the safe space for
• 1:44:21
  people to be there and and just the the the positivity around
• 1:44:26
  that. I just think that's that's an
• 1:44:29
  enormous thing to be proud of. Well, I'm very lucky.
• 1:44:31
  I'm very. Grateful that that people you
• 1:44:33
  know the Patreon system is a is a.
• 1:44:36
  I said it I I I did think it was perfect because of course it's
• 1:44:39
  lovely because nobody has to be there that doesn't want to be
• 1:44:41
  there. And people give what level of
• 1:44:44
  the support that they want and and people voluntarily sort of
• 1:44:48
  subsidize the arts as it were, but they subsidize.
• 1:44:51
  What that particular thing is what a, what a great system.
• 1:44:53
  The only downside is of course that then somebody might cancel
• 1:44:56
  their subscription or whatever. You immediately take it
• 1:44:58
  massively personally, even though they might just go, I'm
• 1:45:00
  just having a break or I'm just a bit bored of that, or I'm
• 1:45:02
  broke or whatever you go. It must be something.
• 1:45:04
  I said they hate me so, so there's always something, but it
• 1:45:09
  is, it is a great system and I am very fortunate that that the
• 1:45:13
  people that seem to like my stuff are, you know, a really.
• 1:45:18
  Nice bunch. It's you know it it it means
• 1:45:20
  it's it's you know it means that I can put stuff out there and it
• 1:45:24
  will be received in the way that it is intended which is which is
• 1:45:29
  not the same in you know social media or or even you know when
• 1:45:33
  you put something on on on telly or on the radio or whatever.
• 1:45:36
  There's something to be said for for filling a a niche.
• 1:45:40
  It might be a a smaller place, but it perhaps it's it's a
• 1:45:43
  little more comfortable and I know that from having.
• 1:45:46
  Somebody who's in a you know who's who's who's working life
• 1:45:49
  is in something of much more mass appeal it's it's you know
• 1:45:57
  that that brings with it it's you know we think Doctor Who
• 1:46:01
  fans are a particular bunch. No the you know the the the the
• 1:46:06
  you know people people are yeah yeah anything that you put out
• 1:46:11
  there is is it's always you know where is dicing with the.
• 1:46:16
  You know people's responses. Which, which are not, Which are
• 1:46:19
  not necessarily particular to Doctor Who fans.
• 1:46:24
  So yeah, no, I'm very I'm. I'm very fortunate for the whole
• 1:46:26
  Patriot thing. Well, I'll see.
• 1:46:28
  I see the. Comments that come in and it's
• 1:46:30
  all just positive and it's all people engaging with what's
• 1:46:34
  coming in. It's it's a a wonderful thing.
• 1:46:37
  Toby has been a delight to talk to you tonight.
• 1:46:42
  Well, you know. You know, I am a huge admirer of
• 1:46:46
  your work, but I'm actually more proud of the fact that you and I
• 1:46:50
  have connected and I can call you my friend.
• 1:46:53
  Well, absolutely. I do.
• 1:46:54
  I love you know I do enjoy talking to you.
• 1:46:56
  I love listening to your podcast and I think your your is very
• 1:47:00
  flattering. But I can't.
• 1:47:01
  I mean you I again. I mean, bless you for.
• 1:47:05
  Give wanting to do this. And of course I'm not going to
• 1:47:08
  say no. But when I hope I'm going to
• 1:47:11
  think about it now and go. I should have not said that I
• 1:47:14
  should be funnier at that. I should.
• 1:47:15
  I know you. I know.
• 1:47:16
  In fact, as you're saying things, I'm almost know the
• 1:47:19
  things you're going to say. Tomorrow.
• 1:47:22
  Oh God, I should. That's oh, should I?
• 1:47:24
  No. So I know for a fact that these
• 1:47:27
  are going to be a bunch of 10 months Listen to episodes.
• 1:47:31
  So it's a win win for me. I had a great night with you.
• 1:47:33
  I mean, numbers are going to be great too.
• 1:47:36
  Oh well. Well I mean that's really nice.
• 1:47:39
  I'm I'm glad I'm I'm you know as as I say lovely to chat to you.
• 1:47:44
  It's very easy to talk about stuff I've done and and I'm very
• 1:47:49
  grateful to all the nice people out there who say nice things
• 1:47:54
  and you'll be back. On.
• 1:47:56
  Hamster. Oh yes, aren't.
• 1:47:58
  We going to do a double bill. We are going to do a double
• 1:48:01
  bill. Of two absolutely absolute
• 1:48:04
  classics, Midnight and The Waters of Mars, I think 2
• 1:48:08
  Absolute. Bangers, as the court say, so
• 1:48:12
  I'll say. Until next time where we get to
• 1:48:15
  talk about those. But thank you very much.
• 1:48:18
  It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Joe.