Latest / Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR / Sam Katz on NFL Disability Benefits and Fighting for Former Players

Transcript

Sam Katz on NFL Disability Benefits and Fighting for Former Players · Raising the Bar with RebuttalPR

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Raising the Bar with Rebuttal PR.
• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: The podcast will be elevate the stories of the pain of spar and dive into the key trends shaping the civil justice system today.
• 0:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Ray D. Lorenzi, and in each episode, we'll bring you insightful interviews with leading attorneys, expert perspectives on current legal events, and in-depth discussions on the issues that matter most.
• 0:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now let's jump in.
• 0:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I remind myself every day, we're not template lawyers, we're not fill in the blank lawyers, we're not, you know, yes, I could have become a template lawyers six years ago, and just, eh, let's fill in the blank, we have a good process.
• 0:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want it where every single time that we're producing something new, that whoever the reader is, whether it's a core, whether it's
• 0:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the NFL claims are ministry, whether it's the NFL Congresswoman's fashion master, or the NFL disability board, that what they're reading is, wow, did you see what this new case thought, did you see what they did this time?
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and in stealing that, not just in myself, but in each lawyer at the firm, that, you know, stay passionate, stay hungry.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everyone, welcome to a new episode of Raising the Bar with Rebuttal PR.
• 1:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Ray Diva Renzi, and today I'm honored to be joined by Sam Cats with the Athlaw LLP.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sam may not be a household name to you, but that's because you are not a former NFL player.
• 1:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: In that community, Sam is the lawyer that they go to when they have a disability issue.
• 1:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: With the started the NFL season, I could think of no one better to join the podcast and Sam Cats.
• 1:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sam, thanks so much for joining us today.
• 1:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, thanks so much for having me.
• 1:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a big fan of the podcast, obviously big fan of your team, so very excited to be here.
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sam, I'm interested in what drew you to become a lawyer in the first place.
• 1:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and also I understand that as a kid you've worked in a sports memory, Julia stores, sort of tell me about your upbringing.
• 1:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: LA born and raised, you know, worked as mentioned as a sports fan, worked in a sports member building store where I felt like I had, you know, the dream job back then of getting to go in and talk about sports and, you know, watch people open up cards of my favorite players.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it was, it was a dream come true, you know, from there, went to college while in college.
• 2:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I interned at athletes first.
• 2:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: which is the premier sports agency in football.
• 2:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: They taught me to win things the right way.
• 2:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm providing an excellent service.
• 2:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: It sells itself.
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to take shortcuts.
• 2:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: You do things the wrong way.
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just work hard, producing an excellent service, and especially in this community, players talk.
• 2:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, from there, decided, hey, you know what, I'm going to go in and be a lawyer.
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was really, I was really hoping at the time, hey, if I go to law school, get a graduate degree, you know, I can come back and be a sports agent when I got
• 2:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: law school.
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, after working my butt off in law school, seeing a, you know, what, there's so many different areas of law, I can be doing.
• 2:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, and then I, you know, I'm succeeding at a law school.
• 2:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm enjoying the material.
• 3:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Working as hard as I can.
• 3:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say people asked how I did so well in law school.
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was scared.
• 3:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was scared.
• 3:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, I basically lived in the library until it would close every night.
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I basically became a staple of the library.
• 3:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: If somebody's going into library at a time where I don't have class and I'm not sleeping.
• 3:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am, I am in the library studying.
• 3:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, my outlines were like 900 pages.
• 3:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I definitely got made fun of by my peers, but.
• 3:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: When I got to that first grade in law school, you know, I remember sitting on the couch with with with my mom and I You know, they're supposed to come out in a certain time and I look I look up.
• 3:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's the grade and it Mom, my thing is broken.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I call up my buddy.
• 3:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, hey, it's your great come out.
• 3:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, yeah, I know I got like a B I said, yeah, I mean, I might think it's not working.
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: It says 4.33 and he says, no, I mean, that means you set the curve.
• 3:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, well, I don't even know, a 4.33, you know, existed, and, you know, from that point, and it's going to seem to sound super cliche, but, you know, my motto is, is work hard and believe in yourself, and, you know, the, the hard work is, okay, work as hard as you can, and leave no room for excuses, you know, whether it be giving all your time and all your effort and all your
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: things that don't get you to with the greater goal is.
• 4:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, my first year a law school, I remember, you know, a first semester, you know, this person, you know, his dad, you know, was at the same law school and this person has the outline from, you know, the A plus the prior year.
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And everybody seemed to know, you know, or have, have the shortcut.
• 4:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, there was moments where you spend time doubting,
• 4:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: what your own hard work.
• 4:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And after getting that grade, it was a wake-up call.
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: If I work as hard as I can and leave no room for excuses, you know, just believe in myself, believe in that hard work.
• 5:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's no need to get distracted.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I've taken that same approach through my legal career.
• 5:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: worked hard in law school, transferred to USC law school, which, you know, I did early decision.
• 5:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was my dream school.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Was there another two years?
• 5:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And really, you know, thank God for the USC network and continuing to study in libraries and working libraries all the way through law school by the, by the end, you know, a former NFL player who had gone back to school, I don't mean where anybody would find me on at any given moments, family at the library at that
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, he would ask me random, you know, I was just a law student at the time, so I, you know, I couldn't even provide advice by any means.
• 5:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: But he'd ask me about this issue and then I'd say, like, I, I, I'm not a lawyer, but, you know, reach out to me when I'm a lawyer and, uh, loan behold, when, you know, I, I passed the bar, uh, that, that same player reached out to me and said, hey, can you, and you help me out with my
• 6:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And probably like, you know, many of the words right now, you're thinking that I was thinking the same thing, which is I'm not the first, you know, on here, but what the, you know, what the F is LOD and TMP is is what I said to them, and I want to put that pin, I want to put a pin in that story.
• 6:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why go the lawyer path in the first place?
• 6:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why, you know, did you have any aspiration to be an athlete or were you, was that never in the cards for Sam Cats?
• 6:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: What made you say law school is interesting to me?
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, my, you know, great fundamentals, you know, couldn't at least that point defeat, you know, the super talent, you know, I, I had a pretty early idea that I would not be making it to the MBA, you know, I did not have Allen Iverson skills, you know, to be making to the MBA.
• 7:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I always knew I wanted to work in sports, you know, the path to getting to work in sports.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was more of a, you know, I'll work hard and, you know, hopefully the right opportunity comes around.
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know when I was at, you know, when I was at athletes first, you know, they told me to go to law school and, you know, I, I, to people I look up to.
• 7:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: and really admire, you know, getting such phenomenal advice from them, you know, it made sense.
• 7:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I dropped what I was doing.
• 7:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I started picking up, starting to the outside.
• 7:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that was really the decision to go to law school and be a lawyer was, you know, people that I admired in the sports field that had taught me so much, you know, telling me that that that was the move, you know.
• 7:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, of course, I was going to go do that.
• 7:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Being at a sports agency, you know, I think we, we both came of age when like Jerry McGuire was like a movie.
• 8:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like was that, you know, was like a sports agency you thought it would be like what was it actually like to be at a sports agency?
• 8:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And also I liked it.
• 8:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I know you're not a sports agent now, but more sports agents today aren't lawyers, and, you know, how, how has that, you know, I think affected your view of of how the agency world has shifted.
• 8:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, you know, that's a great budget.
• 8:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Look, you mentioned cherry McGuire.
• 8:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that movie, you know, was it show me the money, right?
• 8:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that was, that's that's totally how I viewed what the sports agency world was going to be.
• 8:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: And oh my god, this is the coolest job.
• 8:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, when I, when I got to athletes first,
• 8:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so grateful for my the opportunity that they gave me at athletes first, you know, when I got there, a couple of things stood out number one, how tight that firm was not just amongst each other and the different Asians in the staff, but you know, with their with their clients and really giving their clients such.
• 9:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, attention and not treating them like, you know, a number or just, you know, a client, you know, and churning and a dollar amount, you know, they treated them like, you know, but what any human being would want to be treated like by somebody that says representing their interest, somebody that cares, somebody that genuinely wants to see them.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: exceed on and off the field.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, the respect that they gave me, the lessons that they gave me.
• 9:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things was I expected that the sports agency world is going to be this, you know, man, you got to cut this corner and cut that corner, and it wasn't.
• 9:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: They really taught me that you, I'm like, keep saying, but provide an excellent service.
• 9:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And really focus on that.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: and don't cut corners, don't take shortcuts.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, instead focus on that excellent service and you know, you're clients, especially in the world of sports.
• 10:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've come up with this, um, call it the chicken wing theory.
• 10:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I usually teach, I usually teach, and I wasn't taught it like nobody's said to say, I'm listening to the chicken wing theory.
• 10:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's something I've learned from experience.
• 10:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the chicken wing theory makes sense when, if you keep in mind, the greatest chicken wing is winning.
• 10:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: at the greatest chikoming is winning.
• 10:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the chikling theory is you'll have player one, and player one has, it could be an agent, it could be a lawyer, it could be a manager, it could be an accountant, it could be whoever that represents player one.
• 10:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's call it a agent one, or for here, let's call it lawyer one.
• 10:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And lawyer one's entire incoming client base is player one.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And on the other side, you have player two,
• 10:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And lawyer too.
• 10:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And lawyer too is an entire incoming client base is player too.
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, one lawyer doubling their entire client and an income base and one lawyer losing their entire client and a income base is as simple as one, you know, player one saying the player two in the locker room, hey, my, my, my lawyer had the coolest pickling party this weekend.
• 11:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was 32 flavors of chicken wings with with, you know, cherry lemon pepper and the other guy going,
• 11:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: way, your guy had cherry lemon pepper wings.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've never had that before.
• 11:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can I get your guys number?
• 11:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And once again, it's not like I've never been to a chicken wing party, but the theme being that winning is the greatest, chicken wing or success is the greatest chicken wing.
• 11:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's how today, you know, afloff picks up all of our clients is what's one guy saying to another guy, you know, we don't ask our clients to go and recruit or listen, it's just one guy saying to his
• 11:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, this success with my with my law firm and next thing you know that other guy is getting us a call if he hasn't, you know, and I always ask, oh, who you know who sent you and the guys, oh, sent by so and so and it's always nice to hear, you know, our clients, some of them who I haven't talked to for years, you know, are still, you know, speaking very highly of us.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: and doing their, their money's a solid.
• 12:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, just coming back to it, they taught me to produce, you know, provide this actual service.
• 12:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I really am so grateful for the lessons I learned at that.
• 12:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: First, I said, and one more point out, I think first, because they gave me this remarkable opportunity, you know, I'll call it like my almost famous, because I didn't have, you know, it's not like LeBron James was my roommate and, and in college, it wasn't like, you know, my brother was this person, you know, who was, you know, some talk, any James or something like that.
• 12:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, after interning there for quite some time, um, they had just very large rookie recruiting class.
• 12:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're, they're, they're, they said they're, they're draft class.
• 12:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they just have their rookies come and live, um, and train by the agency in California.
• 12:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was about 30 of them.
• 12:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, you know, I'd become quite close with, with this class.
• 13:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was like 21 years old at the time, um, you know, which is the age a lot of the guys.
• 13:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And a couple of the players had gone to the agents,
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because I guess there was an empty there was an empty room that one of the players, you know, they were living in paired up, these paired up apartment complexes.
• 13:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the players, it was only him and he had the empty room and they went to the agents and said, hey, can Sam come, love looks?
• 13:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: for these next like three months of the draft process.
• 13:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that was a like, you know, game changing moment for me and I'll forever be grateful for that because for the next basically three months in the pre-draft process, it was, you know, the 30 NFL rookies at athletes first live with me.
• 13:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So,
• 13:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's foster and, you know, Clay Matthews and B.J.
• 13:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Rajee and, you know, Mark Sanchez with that class and patterner.
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was, it was an awesome, awesome experience for me getting to see, wait a minute, you know, I idolized these people.
• 13:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've looked at their NFL, you know, mock traps.
• 14:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I read them and then it felt mocked for them.
• 14:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: But getting to meet them as people and seeing what they're like as individuals, really open my eyes and to sort of not just a client, but a person and that everybody's different.
• 14:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not one size fits all approach.
• 14:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not some, you know, into the state.
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a client calls me and it's, let's give some generalized advice that works for everybody.
• 14:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, let's look at this client's facts.
• 14:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And see what's going on with this client and their individualist facts and come up with, you know, advice, that's best for them.
• 14:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, yes, there is some generalized advice and I just kind of guess what I said, there is some generalized advice that, you know, for example, the claims administrator tells us to tell our clients or, you know, that the law requires what our clients, but screening everybody has an individual with something that I learned and and by doing that you can really give the best particular advice for that that specific client.
• 15:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're going back to that fake full moment when that former football player, you know, you know, sort of, you know, keeps approaching you in the library and then off some ask you about, you know, line of duty benefits.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at that point in time, you had no idea what those were.
• 15:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what made you interested in wanting to sort of say, you know, okay, let me go investigate a bit instead of saying,
• 15:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, that's, and that's a very question.
• 15:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, that, that the easy quick answer to what made me want to go and investigate that that, you know, is that potential legal issue further was, you know, one word sports like oh my god, this is this is this is something dealing with sports.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, some random other issue that, you know, try out to me, but the opportunity to get to work in sports.
• 16:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: was what was what drove me in, you know, a quick story that I think might also help here is doing a little bit back when I was doing on campus interviews in law school, you know, I'm a bunch of the big law firms and I remember, you know, all my resume, it's all sports sports sports sports sports sports sports.
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember going in and one of the law firms, you know, we're talking sports the whole time and it was, you know, a big law firm, you know, a big international law firm and, you know, at the end of the interview, they asked me
• 16:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: The why do you want to do corporate finance and securities?
• 16:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, well, what sports law from do you know that that pays at that time, it was $160,000.
• 16:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently, it's not what I was supposed to say, you know, I was supposed to say, but you know, if I was in very blunt, I've always been very candid, you know, so, you know, years later, and you know, then being blunt and candid, I found
• 16:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: really does work well with the clients, you know, just let's tell them guys what they want to hear or tell them guys, things are worse than what they are, but just being blunt to tell them guys what, you know, what I had that and what my hand and advice would be.
• 17:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm back to it, you know, that guy, the former player he funds me and he asked me, hey, can you help me out with my LOD and TMP?
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I treated it like that first grade that I had then I had that 4.33 and was legal research
• 17:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a hundred pages of facts.
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have this hypothetical client, and this is their issue, and they want you to go in to legal research, to build a brief or a memo to answer that client's issue.
• 17:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I treated it just like that where it was okay, you know what, client has come to me now.
• 17:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: a couple days of lawyer at this point.
• 17:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me, let me go and research the case law here.
• 17:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the more than I researched it, the more I went, like I start reading these cases, I printed out every NFL disability case, every pleading, every NFL disability plan, and just like I did, when I was in law school, I started with the earliest pleading, earliest case, or earliest plan, and in in in in in in order, I'm just reading the case on the more the more that I read it,
• 18:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: vaccinated by it.
• 18:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Arissa is, it's known for being very complex.
• 18:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's known for that.
• 18:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm seeing it's, you know, all that hard work that I did in law school of not, let me not take my foot off the pedal, you know, because you never know which, I was to tell myself, I'm like, I never know what type of legal issue I'll be dealing with as a lawyer.
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, Arissa, you're dealing with trust and contract and at once you feel like
• 18:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: remedies and you're dealing with, um, freezes of food and shirt duties and trust like you're dealing with so many different air and labor.
• 18:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're dealing with so many different areas of law that I remember going, oh, thank God, I didn't take that leak off in law school.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't, you know, take a shortcut when I was in law school at this Friday, you know, at this stage or on this subject because things that maybe could have been huge obstacles when reading the case law,
• 19:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't held up on, and like I said, the more than I read the case law, the more I just became fascinated, fascinated with the material, you know, so, you know, so, you know, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,
• 19:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm right at a law school.
• 19:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to start my own law firm and focus on this.
• 19:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Did you have professors or mentors who were like, are you insane or were you just like, you know, this is it.
• 19:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is what I'm going to be.
• 19:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is what I'm good at.
• 19:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is what I want.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I didn't get what's both, right?
• 19:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, yeah, and I had, you know, I'm not going to call anybody up in here, but there was a lot of people telling me, I'm crazy, luckily, I kind of knew that, and yeah, you know, I'm like, okay, you know what?
• 19:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it definitely not something that I have seen in somebody else?
• 19:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say that stirring my remedies class.
• 19:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: We had a judge, a judge single, and he was a great professor, and at one point he had a lawyer come and speak to the class that this lawyer was telling a story about, you know, he was, you know, straight out of law school and, you know, somebody came to him to, you know,
• 20:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and basically I'm going to take out a second mortgage on this house, and you know, it was like, is this even working?
• 20:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I remember the the professor saying, you know, and you know, how much did you guys end up settling for it was something like 1.4 1.5 billion or something like that.
• 20:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the pressure is like, and what was your attorney fee on that is like 45%.
• 20:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I just remember I'm like, why?
• 20:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know what, it took 10 or 15 years and there were, you know, it seemed like it was, you know, wait, I'm starting this thing.
• 20:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, this is not going well.
• 20:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this is not going well.
• 20:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like that meme that you see on the other.
• 20:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, I'm starting a business.
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's still great.
• 20:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, it's terrible.
• 20:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow, it's still better.
• 20:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, it's terrible.
• 20:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that kind of gave me this this whole, if you know what, just do what I've done, which is study as hard as I can.
• 21:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: learn the material.
• 21:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I knew I would, the more I studied, the more I'm, okay, I'm going up against a 10, 20 billion dollar, you know, entity, you know, 10, 20 billion dollar per year entity, probably is even more than that.
• 21:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: You I better know my stuff.
• 21:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not going to be some shortcuts, it's not going to be.
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what did I do?
• 21:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I,
• 21:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: You said I threw all the material, I threw it again, I threw it again, I started, it became obsessed, it became obsessed and I guess you have to be, you know passion passion wins and what clay was passionate about it and you know,
• 21:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, another former player who was really my best friend, like my room, my roommate when I was at Austin's first, you know, he had just retired and, you know, he was asking me about, hey Sam, you know, what are you doing?
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, someone I'm doing and he's like, oh, that's, that's awesome.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard a bunch of guys, you know, having a need in that as well.
• 21:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So now I'm here in multiple players or tell me that there's this huge need.
• 22:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, the more that I studied, I just kept studying it.
• 22:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I spent two years, I'll just say this, I was two years reading the material over and over and over to the point where it is still ingrained and here.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I still learned new things, reading those faces to today.
• 22:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And after two years, submitted that first case.
• 22:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that guy told five guys, not let's tell him I'm going to tell five guys.
• 22:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: He went and told five guys because we did a great job and, you know, their cases and they told five guys and that's, you know, here we are.
• 22:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and one of the time from, you know, well, I will say, well, one thing that is, you know, I would speak about it, obsessively, like, you know, my friends from law school that had, you know, great jobs at a law school, you know, they talked to me and asked me how I'm doing or what I'm doing and I would tell them,
• 22:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, y'know, I'm doing this.
• 22:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm suddenly instead of a benefit thing and you know, I'd ask them like, hey, you know, I want one of my friends from law school.
• 23:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: I asked her, I said, hey, I'm about I wrote this thing from scratch, this legal brief from scratch.
• 23:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be my first brief.
• 23:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can you read it because I feel like I'm going crazy here and I put my whole life into this thing.
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can you can you read it and just tell me if if I am as crazy as I think I am here and she read it and she went.
• 23:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, this is amazing.
• 23:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want it.
• 23:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was a good way.
• 23:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've like made no money doing this thing yet.
• 23:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've...
• 23:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: You see where I, and she's like, no, no, this is going to be great, like I want in.
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, you know, lo and behold, I, so I started to teach her material.
• 23:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, and today, she's one of the partners at my firm.
• 23:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and, and one on a time, as, as we grew, went to each of my best friends from law school and would tell them about what I'm doing and say, you know, if you're interested, how we can, we can use narrative, you know, the, the man for us is up here and the supply of us as lawyers is here,
• 23:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, each of my best friends, one at a time, join the firm and, oh, okay, you know, but the more supply we go, the higher the demand type going up.
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then I ran out of best friends from law school.
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: to the pressure or, you know, the one or two that I would approach to me, they weren't interested, it was like, oh man, I felt like I was just annoying some people of like, you know, because that really had so many best friends being like a lone wolf in law school.
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then at that point, they started doing on campus.
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, it's, it's, you know, yes, there's lots of struggles and obstacles and moments where you, you know, very easily could, could doubt the process and doubt what you're going through.
• 24:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, reading those cases and
• 24:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: frosting in in the vision of what I saw when I was first studying this stuff and the more I said was I saw what what it is today.
• 24:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I saw that in my mind of you know what I can see that there's going to be a huge demand in this.
• 24:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can see you know and not focusing so much on at least at that point I'm getting the word out but at least at that point the focus was hey let me let me make
• 24:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: whatever point the service is great.
• 24:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's that's the time, you know, that that the work can get out, you know, first naturally, but then, you know, obviously, you know, like we're really guys now and, you know, it's getting getting the word out about a great service.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not so worried that somebody's going to come to us and, oh, you know, we get the word out and then somebody more people are finding out, I were terrible at what we do.
• 25:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay, I know anybody that's coming to us, we're going to go provide that same excellent service.
• 25:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remind myself
• 25:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this isn't we're not template lawyers.
• 25:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're not fill in the blank lawyers.
• 25:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're not, you know, yes, I could have become a template lawyers six years ago.
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And just let's fill in the blank.
• 25:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have a good process.
• 25:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I want it, we're every single time that we're producing something new that whoever the reader is, whether it's a core, whether it's.
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the NFL claims are measured whether it's the NFL special master or NFL disability, sorry, NFL claims and NFL confess them.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a fashion master or the NFL disability board that what they're reading is wow did you see what this new case thought did you see what they did this time, you know, and and instilling that not just in myself but in each lawyer at the firm that, you know, stay passionate, stay hungry.
• 26:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Sam, I'm interested in understanding just in brief, when a former player comes to you, have they taken their shot already at getting benefits, and they've gotten denied unfairly, or are they coming to you from the start and being like, I don't know where to begin, because, you know, in part NFL promotes these benefits, as I was always taking care of former players, and if it were so easy, they wouldn't need you in the first place.
• 26:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So just in brief,
• 26:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: how our form pairs coming to you sort of what is in what position are they in?
• 26:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's very good, Shane.
• 26:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, when players first come to us, it like once again, I go back to me, I said earlier, we look at the individual, because we'll have individual players that, uh, at least, uh, you know, we've brought more hand on the individuals.
• 26:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And now it's the class action that we've been working for last years, but for when individuals would come to us, it's, you know, you'll have players that, you know, they're fresh out the NFL and they just, they just retired and, you know, for them, there's a certain.
• 27:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: others certain that they saw what their fact or what we're seeing in there.
• 27:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have players that I'll say my, maybe maybe a client would want to be my favorite type of client.
• 27:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: My favorite type of client is not somebody that is necessarily fresh out the NFL and my favorite type of client is somebody that has tried already and lost.
• 27:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And ideally, if they did have prior representation and they're coming to us seeking new representation, that's my favorite type of client because, you know, guys like that, a lot of times I'll see their what the process was and what
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: did go wrong, whether it was, you know, they didn't provide all the records, or, you know, their lawyer didn't even know to make a certain argument, that is out there based on the statute or based on the case far ideally both.
• 28:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And seeing that and seeing, okay, well, you know, this went wrong because this guy didn't submit this or this went wrong because, you know, the
• 28:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: and being able to, you know, and that guy, especially the many players who were coming to us, they didn't give it up, hope on it.
• 28:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't give it up, hope that, you know, they're trying to, you know, through the player over no matter what.
• 28:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, getting to look and see, wait a minute.
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is,
• 28:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is this is something where wait a minute, don't give up hope and seeing a guy's case breaking it down for them what's going on in their case and giving them legal advice based on hey, you didn't submit this document or hey, they denied you for something that they're denied every player for, you know, in violation of a risk that's, you know,
• 28:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's these very common and very general, um, um, and such a very common, uh, a uniform illegal policies that that the NFL disability board has that are applying to every tire of certain benefits and being able to point that out and saying, hey, this wasn't, you know, this wasn't something about you.
• 29:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: This, this was something that's a greater systemic issue that, you know, we learned later on, like for example, we didn't learn until, you know, like 2021 that they were fraudulently misrepresenting
• 29:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: They were telling players, they were view all their records.
• 29:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: But they were learning that their practice is that they admit they don't actually review all their records is what they admitted their practice says.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like that that comes to us, whatever the client means that we can provide legal and sound advice to that's what we're here for.
• 29:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're here for.
• 29:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And doing things the right way, those same lessons that I learned from athletes first early on of provided excellent service, focus on the client.
• 29:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and don't blow up too fast.
• 29:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, one thing that I that early on in I career, there were points where, you know, as the supply of us as lawyers at our firm went up in the demand of the man would go up, there were points for really, I don't even want to take new clients like, and my phone would continue blowing up and I would say, look, I'm not taking new clients right now, because I never wanted to have to chop up.
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: My, okay, well, I took on too many and now I'm having to cut the service and half so to speak to provide, well, if I want to provide that same excellent service, well, you know, I've got two clients now and so I'm going to chop the first excellent service and half timing wise, I never wanted to do that so, but I'll say that's it was funny, it actually just made just made the demand.
• 30:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: go up that way when we were not taking new clients and it wasn't that wasn't on purpose.
• 30:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I noticed that that would happen.
• 30:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, I've seen lawyers that, oh, they take on a thousand clients and they make that, oh, the name of the game.
• 30:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let me sign as many as I can.
• 30:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's never been the name of the game.
• 30:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: The name of the game has been, well, the clients that we have provided in an excellent service and and sticking by that, you know, that theory that that goal has worked well for us.
• 31:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because you specialize in this, when you file something, whether it's with the disability benefits or the concussion settlement, do you think that the folks looking at those claim submissions that you provide?
• 31:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: They see your name on that, and do you think they view it?
• 31:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like they favor you, but do they?
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think they take it with a more seriousness, I guess?
• 31:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And someone who just came off the street was doing it for the first time.
• 31:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Have you noticed any sort of steam there?
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I wouldn't say, you know, there's any type of favoritism by any means, but rather,
• 31:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say that it gets this, you know, and these are two different programs.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say that.
• 31:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Look, for a concussion settlement, concussion on that's a very fair program.
• 31:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is a awesome lead class council at C. your wise there's a fairer claims administrator that is extremely meticulous.
• 31:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a great thing, you know, it's a great thing.
• 31:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is a, there are special masters that are venerable and wise and know the material
• 32:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: great, you know, very, very strong and very guiding precedent in case law.
• 32:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there was a fair judge.
• 32:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, is Judge Brody and now Judge Lollson on their fair judges.
• 32:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So for concussion settlement, you know, I, I would hope, I would hope it's that the, that our own meticulousness.
• 32:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, in how we handle cases that when they see us, they, I mean, I don't believe it's at favoritism by any means, but rather it's just a, okay, you know, they see the meticulousness that we put in.
• 32:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, hopefully, you know, that becomes our reputation.
• 32:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that the reputation necessarily, um, makes a difference in the outcome of a case.
• 32:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we win case, we lose cases.
• 32:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it makes a difference in the outcome of the case.
• 32:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But rather,
• 33:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: believe, and nice to to hope that somebody out there is recognizing the work that we've done, but at least I don't think it it's swaced away.
• 33:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that the hope would be that the client's facts and you know the sound advice like telling a client, hey tell the truth and be honest and be candid, which I might seem like obvious advice, you know, that is probably some of the greatest advice we can give a client.
• 33:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: in the NFL concussion sound.
• 33:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: That might not seem so obvious, but really is.
• 33:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: For NFL disability benefits, they do miss the vote a lot of times.
• 33:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is different than concussion sound.
• 33:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: For NFL disability benefits, they miss the vote a lot of times.
• 33:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think fair as well, I don't think it's necessarily any type of
• 33:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: David says in one way or another, but rather, I would hope that when they see our work, as opposed to just our name, I hope that when they see our work, that it's okay, this must be at law, because only at law would put in this type of meticulousness into the work that we do.
• 34:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's more, they see the, my hope would be, I don't know it's Rebecca, but my
• 34:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: As opposed to, oh, this is an article on the work that's going to look like this.
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: To close out Sam, especially with the new NFL season starting, the sport is more popular than ever.
• 34:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: At the same time, there's more stories than ever about former players and the problems with the disability benefits and, you know, while they may be generous, it's only a generous as one can access them and ask Sam them is not particularly easy.
• 34:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: What would you hope for, let's say, in the next 10 years, that would allow more former players to be able to access the benefits that were bargained for and that they are deserving of?
• 34:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great question.
• 34:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when it comes to the NFL contractions settlement, I would hope that for the concussion settlement, especially in the next couple of years,
• 35:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, even for players that don't believe that they have in the issues, that they're at least getting tested and going in and taking their baseline their baseline assessment program exam.
• 35:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: While while that program exists, because the for the NFL can cause just so many exams to be around for the next 50 plus years at this point.
• 35:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, maybe somebody is totally fine right now, but going in, getting checked out, being honest and being open and being transparent about what they do have, you know, whatever is going on with their activities, whatever, you know, on jelly basis, whether it's something, whether it's nothing that they're honest with it, and that at least go in and see and get evaluated.
• 35:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: For NFL disability benefits, I mean, the changes that we're hoping that come about
• 35:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: One go too much in the pending litigation and in class action in in the all for verse and I felt disability soon.
• 35:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we're hoping that the changes from the success that we've had in this.
• 36:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: that those remedies that we're seeking, you know, coming to fruition and we're very, we feel very good about, you know, where we're at, what that especially post, you know, the video of the motion is this and defeating them on all council claims on, on their summary judgment motions, you know, but we hope that some of those changes.
• 36:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Really, I mean, it's.
• 36:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: fairness.
• 36:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: We hope that fairness when it comes to NFL disability benefits becomes, you know, the things change where it's not a process anymore of, let's look and see if there's way we can cherry pick these facts as the NFL disability board does.
• 36:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: The owners in particular,
• 36:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a way that things can, let's see if there's a way that we can deny this guy who really deserves something.
• 36:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope that changes that come about are that instead it becomes a process of, hey, these players have been beat up.
• 36:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: They've been through a lot.
• 36:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: They put their body and their brains and their minds on the line for something that we all love watching.
• 37:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say on Sunday, on Sunday, on Monday, Thursday, sometimes on Saturday, you know, it's, it's, you know, then this, you know, for NFL this way, but it's, it's not something that it's like, hey, I just want something extra.
• 37:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: guys collectively bargain for these benefits.
• 37:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: If they meet the criteria, it's something that they factor in and go, well, you know, I can go play an extra couple of years because I know that my family is taking care of and I am taking care of if anything happens to me.
• 37:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: and seeing changes like that, okay, that the process is really designed around what the actual goal of the plan is.
• 37:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, according to Prumper's Pervelle, the goal of the plan is to compensate players for investing themselves in sport.
• 37:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, and we'd hope to see that that really becomes the focus as opposed to, you know, how can we screw these guys over?
• 37:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: With that, Sam Katz of Athloil, Pete, the retired NFL player community is very lucky to have you, and the podcast is very lucky to have you as our latest guests.
• 38:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much Sam for your time.
• 38:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
• 38:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's such an honor to be here and like I said, thank you so much for having me.
• 38:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was saying I saw, I would see all the great names and great lawyers that you've interviewed before and I was just hoping maybe one day, maybe one day we'll do great enough work that you know I'll get the chance.
• 38:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So really I'm very honored to have been here and this is how you know you made it Sam.
• 38:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I I feel like so let's let's go.
• 38:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to this episode of Raising the Bar with Rebuttal PR.
• 38:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Don't forget to subscribe and follow to join us next time.
• 38:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see you all then.