Latest / Wired to Build / Should Tech Adoption Be Disruptive or Constructive with Jeff Sample

Transcript

Should Tech Adoption Be Disruptive or Constructive with Jeff Sample · Wired to Build

0:00
Hey, what's going on everyone? Welcome back to Wire to Build,
0:02
the podcast exloring how people shaping our built world use
0:06
technology, data and real world insight to design, deliver and
0:09
operate the infrastructure our world depends on.
0:12
I'm Nick Caravella, your host, and in the first half of our
0:16
conversation, we spent some time getting to know Jeff, his
0:19
background, the path that's taken him across the industry
0:22
and the perspective he's built. Traveling job site to draw job
0:25
site and construction conference to conference through the
0:28
contact roadshow. But in this second part of the
0:31
conversation, we're going to zoom out a little bit because if
0:34
you spent enough time in construction, you start to
0:36
realize something. The story isn't about the tools
0:38
or technology. It's about the culture around
0:40
the work and the people that drive it.
0:42
So how teams operate, how knowledge moves, and why some
0:45
ideas stick in the field where some ideas never quite make it
0:48
past the demo. So in this conversation, Jeff
0:51
and I are going to dig into what he's seen across the industry,
0:55
the pattern is as shown up, and what observations he might be
0:58
able to share with us to show where construction is actually
1:02
heading today. So let's get back to the
1:03
conversation with Jeff. Welcome back to the show.
1:06
Thanks Nick. It's great to be back.
1:08
I am excited for Part 2. Yeah, no, let's get to it before
1:12
we jump in. If you did not listen to the
1:14
first episode, I strongly encourage you to do so.
1:17
But Jeff, just share a little bit about who you are.
1:19
That way, if you don't want to listen and you want to just pick
1:22
up where we left off, people have a good frame of reference.
1:25
We'll do the three second elevator pitch.
1:27
My name is Jeff Sample. I am the Senior Industry
1:29
Development Manager for trades at Bluebeam, an Amechek, a
1:33
company. I'm also the host of the contact
1:36
crew and I have been a technologist for 30 years.
1:40
I hate to use that word. I'm an IT architect by trade. 10
1:44
years ago found the construction industry and I have fallen in
1:48
love with it and I've been here ever since and worked in
1:50
multiple capacities from startups to speaking to
1:55
consulting and now back in strategy.
1:58
So excited to just be here and dive into this.
2:02
This why construction tech fails and succeeds.
2:05
It's a it's a passionate project for me over time.
2:09
Yeah. And I think that's a great CA
2:10
into starting the discussion because the last episode we
2:13
really talked a lot about people and the different kinds of
2:17
people and different elevations of people within the industry,
2:20
whether you're in the field, in the office, or really just an
2:23
owner trying to get a building or get some form of
2:26
infrastructure. Before we dive in, I want to
2:29
acknowledge our founding sponsor, Avocado.
2:32
Avocado partners with owners and delivery teams on complex
2:35
capital programs to help them make technology work, aligning
2:39
strategy, implementation, and real world execution across the
2:43
full project life cycle. If you're investing in
2:45
construction technology, digital delivery or data initiatives and
2:50
struggling to turn those investments into real outcomes,
2:52
Avocado helps teams move from intention to
2:55
impactyoucanlearnmore@avocado.com. And so, you know, you started
3:00
your story, you're talking about, you know, going to
3:03
different conferences, getting to know people.
3:05
You've been to some job sites. And yeah, I think variety is a
3:09
little bit of the spice of life. So you've not only been to, you
3:12
know, one company's job site, you've been to many companies
3:15
job sites and seen many different things.
3:17
Can you share a little bit about what job site culture actually
3:22
looks like and where you see, you know, how you started to get
3:26
to know the people, the end user, the people who actually do
3:30
the building? So job site culture is very
3:33
different depending on where you're looking at it from and
3:36
how you're engaging with it and even what that project itself is
3:41
like. You know, we talked about this
3:43
and, and I don't think it's a a surprise to anyone tune it in
3:46
now, but it's a conglomerate of a lot of people.
3:50
And it really doesn't matter if the project's a small commercial
3:54
building, you know, a custom home hyperscaler, a hospital,
4:02
there's all the parts and pieces and players and everyone.
4:04
They're just different at scale. But it's a moving entity of it
4:09
of its own. And it has a goal of its own.
4:12
It has an outcome that it wants and needs in order to satiate
4:17
everybody. But then everybody has a
4:20
particular role in that and I think that sets us up to kind of
4:25
understand why this isn't a silver bullet solution, why we
4:30
have struggled so much over time, but also why we've
4:35
succeeded so much. I think we fail to give
4:37
ourselves credit on where we've actually come and how far we've
4:41
come. I've been in this industry for
4:43
10 years and we are light years from where I started, but we're
4:47
nowhere near the finish line, nor will we ever get to a finish
4:50
line. Sorry, everybody listening.
4:52
You know again, another Simon Sinek, right?
4:54
It's an infinite game. It never ends, so keep on
4:58
keeping on. Yeah, no.
4:59
And I think this is perfect because we talked just moments
5:02
ago in our in our little intermission here about you
5:04
wanting to make sure we talked about just because we can
5:06
doesn't mean we shouldn't. And disruption isn't a goal,
5:09
it's an outcome. And that I think paints a really
5:13
clear picture of where tech innovation often times misses
5:18
the mark. And so to tie this back to job
5:21
site and live the way we built today, how different is the
5:25
reality of the way the industry talks about construction versus
5:30
how construction actually happens?
5:32
Because I think, and this is my, my positive is, you know, people
5:35
talk about construction and they get this idea that, you know,
5:38
folks are moving dirt around stack and bricks wrecked and
5:41
steel. And it's all like perfect in
5:44
that storybook world. And to me, like anybody who's
5:47
been close enough knows that there is a, there's a lot of
5:49
cussing in between all of that. And so I'm curious on what your
5:52
take is and how that ties to that greater, you know, those
5:56
greater 2 points that you were making about the because we can
5:59
doesn't mean we should and what disruption should really be.
6:02
Yeah. So I I want to break those first
6:05
two down for a second. I've been in this business for a
6:08
long time. I followed a lot of very
6:09
passionate leaders over time who want to disrupt the industry.
6:14
And I realized, uh oh, that's a really bad goal, right?
6:19
And they'll always point to an Uber or somebody like that.
6:24
And you're like, wait a minute, Uber did not set out to disrupt
6:27
the taxi industry. It did not.
6:29
It was two guys in London that couldn't get a cab together that
6:33
were then in Silicon Valley and couldn't get a cab together and
6:36
thought, Dang, wouldn't it be great if the cab came to us?
6:39
So we're going to use this phone thing that knows our GPS to do
6:43
that. And they invented Uber and that
6:46
disrupted as a by product, the taxi industry.
6:50
OK, so if you set out to disrupt construction, you're just going
6:54
out to break something, find a problem and go fix it.
6:57
That's what your goal is, is to solve a problem, to solve a
7:01
pain, to solve something that truly is holding the industry,
7:06
the the trade, the architect back.
7:10
And if disruption happens as a byproduct, so be it.
7:14
But it's not your goal. And just because I can doesn't
7:18
mean we should. There is a lot of builders who
7:22
have problems, find a little way to fix it and think the whole
7:26
industry needs this. Do they really?
7:29
Do they all operate like you do? Are you built to be a technology
7:33
company? Are you built to be a leader?
7:36
That's a question. Now listen, we've had successes
7:39
on both sides, people coming from tech and really focusing on
7:42
problems and delivering fantastic solutions.
7:45
And we've had extremely successful construction people,
7:50
companies, etcetera that have gotten into the space and design
7:53
solutions that have been really successful.
7:55
But neither 1 is a absolute as to how you're going to succeed.
8:01
So have that be a little humble, be a little ready to understand
8:06
that that you know and and really truly evaluate if what
8:11
you're doing, solving a problem and if what you're doing people
8:14
actually need. I'm stewing on your Uber example
8:17
because I think there's something really powerful about
8:20
that disruption story. And where even 5 minutes ago
8:24
where my stance would have been about how tech can succeed is
8:29
now now meeting some friction. Because a lot of my head, you
8:33
know, innovation is driven around having respect, at least
8:37
in this industry, having respect for the work, having respect for
8:39
the worker. But something that Uber did and
8:42
its disruption was not so much respect for the work.
8:46
There is a lot of medallion folks who were displaced of a
8:52
lot of I would say damage to the model that be that was done that
8:56
innovative IT and disrupted the industry.
8:59
So to me, it almost shifts the goal posts a little from respect
9:03
for the work, but like, or maybe it's like respect for that job
9:06
that needs to be done, which is connecting the driver to the
9:10
consumer. And in construction, you know
9:13
that if we translate that, I think there's something really
9:17
complicated and interesting there.
9:19
And maybe this is starts to talk about the shift to prefab and
9:22
the shift to modular approaches and just different ways of
9:27
delivering. Do you see what I'm kind of
9:29
pulling out here? Like what?
9:32
I love that you went there, right?
9:33
I got you to think again, right? And you go back to the first
9:36
episode and understand what that one means.
9:37
But think again by pulling at a thread because it'll go back to
9:41
why, right? So why, in the end, do taxis
9:44
exist? They don't exist to make
9:46
medallion holders rich, they existed to get people to the
9:50
places they needed to go. Kodak existed and failed because
9:56
they failed to realize that they existed to capture the memories
10:00
of people and give them to them in any format so they could
10:03
capture the memories of the world.
10:05
They pivoted and became about producing cameras and mainly
10:09
producing film, right and pictures.
10:11
And that's where their money was and they got focused on that.
10:14
But that wasn't why they existed.
10:16
And and we in construction need to understand that we exist to
10:22
build the world around us to contribute to the society that
10:28
we are building by serving the owners that have things that we
10:33
that need to be built. We need water treatment plants.
10:36
We need roads and bridges, we need power plants.
10:41
We need, do we need AII? Don't know.
10:45
But I would say we need data centers, we need technology
10:47
hubs, we need these things. We need advanced manufacturing
10:51
facilities. We need this.
10:54
So that's why construction exists.
10:56
So if you can put yourself in that and look at your business
11:01
and realize today you're great at it, but a disruption could
11:05
occur, then you have an opportunity to continue to focus
11:10
on why and evolve, right? You guys do know that like Kodak
11:13
owned a bunch of the IP around digital cameras, like they were
11:18
sitting on it. There was an opportunity for who
11:23
was it to buy Netflix early on, and they decided not to
11:28
Blockbuster to buy Netflix for like $5 million.
11:33
Blockbuster does not exist today.
11:36
They could have if they had focused on why they exist and
11:40
continue to adapt. And that goes back to the
11:43
infinite game. This game never ends, and you
11:46
can be the top JD Power and associates #1 whatever today and
11:51
gone tomorrow. And again, go back to the first
11:54
episode. I lived that, so it it's not
11:57
just something I say, it's something I lived.
11:59
I think I think we're going to break the land speed record for
12:02
going off course here. We'll find our way back, but I
12:04
want to keep going because this is this is good.
12:07
So then objectively, right. If we keep just tugging at this
12:11
thread for a second, you you said is like I need
12:13
infrastructure, I need water, I need data center, I need
12:15
compute, I need whatever I need building.
12:18
And you know, AI I do think has a role in this.
12:20
I talk about this on so many episodes of like the
12:23
democratization effective like if I have access to information
12:26
and and reasoning and and computation, I could start to do
12:30
things. And this to me draws kind of the
12:34
imperative that some people I think are taking seriously.
12:37
Some people are not taking seriously enough is like, what
12:40
does construction? I don't want to be construction
12:45
2 point O, but like as we evolve, you know, there's going
12:49
to be things that happen to me. One of the industries that is so
12:54
much at risk in my head is like engineering, because it's math,
12:58
it's systems that perform in a in a specific way that need to
13:02
fit in a specific space. And I think that that
13:05
conceptually is AI able. There's things that people,
13:08
humans will still need to be on the loop for.
13:10
But the way we do design is going to evolve and change.
13:15
And I see, you know, as we shift to manufacturing mindset and as
13:18
we shift to prefab and building more kits of parts because, you
13:23
know, when we look at construction, what are the
13:25
things that we always talk about?
13:26
Schedule speed, like quality. This happens when we consolidate
13:35
the decision making matrix and empower the teams to be able to
13:39
do more with less. And something to kind of put a
13:42
bow around it is I was hanging out with the folks at Mod 42.
13:46
We grabbed dinner with the the quant team and a couple other
13:49
folks and they're like, well, we're building modular data
13:51
centers, full complete kit of parts.
13:53
Like you tell us what you need. We have a spec that we build to
13:57
when we can customize it, configure it how you need for
13:59
your data center to operate. But now building a data Center
14:04
for them is you got dirt, you got a pad and we, you place our
14:08
Lego blocks on top of it. And I think that radically
14:12
changes and perhaps potentially disrupts what it means for
14:16
someone to say I need data center and to look at
14:20
traditional design bid, build delivery versus I can buy a
14:24
product off of the shelf. And what it like this I think
14:29
gets to the core of disruption in the space.
14:30
Like, what does it mean for us to exist at this moment in time
14:34
as practitioners or professionals or tech people and
14:37
think about what this disruption can look like and our
14:40
opportunity to either A get in front of it or B get left
14:42
behind? Well, that is a decision, right?
14:45
That is that you go to to Deming and he said, you know, survival
14:51
is optional. It's a choice.
14:53
You either choose to change and adapt or eventually you will end
14:58
up obsolete. And that's OK.
15:01
Like that, that that is true and it's a choice, but I I'll
15:04
challenge you like I'll go to the engineer thing.
15:06
And why does an engineer exist? Well, in structural, yes,
15:10
there's a lot of math, there's a lot of other things, but
15:13
ultimately, and I'm cheating in the background here, right?
15:15
I'm asking AI quickly, why do they exist?
15:18
It's to make sure that we turn architectural designs into state
15:22
safe, structurally sound and functional realities.
15:26
And that includes structural integrity and safety, technical
15:31
implementation, QC, you know, and compliance, site management
15:36
and sustainability and innovation.
15:38
OK, well, if the engineer and the computation and a lot of
15:42
that structural soundness is being done by math, they might
15:46
probably need to shift their focus on sustainability.
15:49
When you talk about a data center, think about the water
15:52
usage, think about the power consumption.
15:54
How can an engineer focus on a more sustainable design by
15:59
running those computations? 10,000 times more to find
16:04
optional new ways to do things. How can they relook at what they
16:08
technically are there to do to keep people safe and
16:11
constructible and to provide, you know, OK, we get outside of
16:15
the data centers. You start to look into
16:17
facilities and to start to push for accessibility and
16:20
accessibility of the future and what it looks like and
16:23
sustainable materials and playing with those.
16:25
So like, again, every single one has an opportunity to be
16:30
transformed, but they have an opportunity to adapt into that
16:34
by looking at what those tools do and focusing in on what they
16:38
truly why they exist. And that's a powerful piece to,
16:44
to it's hard though, right? Because it's like, damn, we're
16:47
so good at doing what we do and we're so busy doing what we do.
16:51
How do we adapt? Well, that's the innovator's
16:54
dilemma, right? Like you, you got to figure it
16:56
out and and balance it. Yeah.
17:00
And then I I talked about this dinner with Mod 42 and the the
17:03
other guest at the table was AE Com and they were talking about
17:06
their recent acquisition of Consigli, which was branding
17:09
itself as the autonomous engineer in creating AI agents
17:13
in this space. So I guess kudos to them for not
17:16
being Blockbuster and actually acquiring their Netflix in this
17:19
instance, perhaps. But I think there's something
17:23
really interesting, especially hearing their excite, their both
17:26
their skepticism and their excitement for it.
17:30
And this kind of validates that the whole human on the loop
17:33
thing. And I think where where you
17:34
start to articulate is like, you know, there's still value beyond
17:37
just the sheer math. And I think that's where like
17:40
design becomes really awesome and cool and creative anyway is
17:44
like, what does it mean to, you know, you have outcome, you
17:48
know, how do we get you it the best way?
17:50
How do we iterate? And you still need someone who's
17:52
familiar enough with the decision making matrix to
17:57
determine, hey, this is a terrible idea for reasons or
18:00
this is a really great idea for reasons and goes right back to
18:05
like the because we we can doesn't mean we should, but
18:08
there are models of this happening.
18:10
And it's, it's interesting like, you know, for acom to get
18:13
Consigli for $390,000,000 to some may sound like a lot, but
18:19
if AI is going to impact the industry to a magnitude, they
18:23
may have gotten it at a premium. And so it'll be really curious
18:27
to see how those kinds of decisions start to play out in
18:32
our industry. We've gotten so far off topic.
18:34
I'm really excited. Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I
18:37
kudos AE com for taking a risk, but but they honestly could be
18:41
the next SoftBank and Katera and they could be wrong and but they
18:47
could be right. Probably somewhere in the
18:50
middle. And I think it goes back to like
18:53
what? And and we don't know this and
18:55
we'd have to sit with them for a while to sort of understand
18:58
this, but we don't know what struggle are they trying to
19:03
solve? Like what are they really going
19:06
to do with that? Because the name in and of
19:09
itself is, you know, construction automation.
19:13
Well, OK, but like, we're a long way off and we'll never be able
19:18
to build a building in a factory because gravity exists and it is
19:22
what it is. Like you can't, you can't defeat
19:25
that in a million years. We've we can't defeat it.
19:27
Gravity exists. So there has to be sequencing.
19:31
There has to be an understanding of how to do things and there
19:35
has to be people doing those things.
19:38
And so that goes to starting in the field, starting at the level
19:45
of those women and men putting work in place and working back
19:53
from there. And I'm fairly sure like that
19:58
went into the kit of parts decision and how, like you said,
20:03
they needed dirt and a pad. Somebody poured that pad.
20:06
They bring the Legos to there. They had to figure out how to
20:08
get people, how to get transportation, how to deliver
20:12
those parts, how to connect that thing together.
20:14
There are people in a factory most likely putting a lot of
20:18
that together. So did you change it?
20:22
A little? But it's still fundamentally now
20:24
those people are in a nicer place.
20:26
So great. What did you address?
20:28
You addressed it, addressed the issue that a job site is a
20:31
wicked environment and it is dangerous and it is very
20:35
volatile considering weather, considering all sorts of things.
20:39
So cool. We moved it to a factory.
20:43
OK, I'm in a factory now, but I'm still that person.
20:45
I still have to do those things. I can improve on how I do this.
20:49
You see, we're, we're just driving more and more based on
20:53
the problems that exist and we're solving them in certain
20:57
scales at certain times. And that's when you don't do
21:00
that. That's literally where it goes
21:02
wrong every time you would say where is it succeed?
21:05
It succeeds when it's based on a problem that improves people's
21:10
lives across the board. And it fails when it is just an
21:15
administrative tool, a sort of the carrot and the stick, right?
21:19
It's just a way to continually carry a stick or to get to
21:23
change orders or to get, you know, to to to just gouge and be
21:28
more up to win the litigation. Now if it if it helps you win
21:32
the litigation, but it solves the problem of documenting
21:36
progress. Work in progress.
21:38
Great. OK buy product.
21:42
And this is I'm, I'm, I'm blown away because I, I was a little
21:44
worried we were not going to make it back.
21:46
And you did a really great job of, of helping here because it
21:48
did it go it go almost puts the bow right around it goes right
21:51
back to Uber where it is. It solved the pain of building
21:55
out in the field, out in the summer heat, out in The Dirty
21:58
dusty environments where can be that can that can be dangerous,
22:04
improves the quality of life for the worker, helps improve
22:06
output, make everybody happy and and starts to solve those
22:10
problems. So I think oddly enough, we we
22:13
ended up back where we started, which is awesome.
22:16
I want to dig into it a little bit more is then you know what
22:21
is separating high performing crews from struggling ones in
22:25
terms of being able to observe these opportunities for
22:30
innovation. And how do you know we start to
22:34
enable these field teams who are are closest to the work to have
22:39
the right conversations with leadership in so that you know,
22:43
the right business decisions can be made that solve the the I
22:49
want to say construction platform problem that would is
22:53
otherwise looked at as like, you know, those business outcomes
22:57
disruption instead of grounded and in in trade reality.
23:02
So I'll go back you started this is like there's a lot of cussing
23:06
and there's a lot of dirt and a lot of dirty, getting dirty and
23:10
getting down and and nitty gritty and rumbling on a site.
23:14
I don't want to get rid of that. I really don't.
23:16
I think it's core right? Like we we talk about recruiting
23:20
people into the industry and getting more diversity and more
23:24
people. That is true, but that doesn't,
23:26
again, just because we can doesn't mean we should.
23:29
We not. Everybody is built for that
23:31
world. That world is built for
23:33
particular people who like that wicked environment that, you
23:37
know, as Chad Pearson would say, the VUCA environment.
23:40
It's volatile. You know, they like it.
23:44
Now. We can't just be the gunslingers
23:47
of the way we used to be. But taking away the friction it
23:52
it, it limits the outcome. It limits how you feel about it.
23:56
So there, I don't want to get rid of it all.
24:00
And I think innovation dies when it's in an innovation department
24:05
that's not connected to that reality that thinks they can
24:09
make a fluffy, fluffy nerfed job site.
24:13
It's not going to happen. Steel is steel, concrete is
24:16
concrete. Like these things are real.
24:19
We're building Legos, great. They're bigger, dangerous Legos
24:23
that if it falls, bad things happen.
24:26
Tilt up walls are awesome. Dangerous is right.
24:30
So like it. We have to embrace that.
24:33
That's part of the parcel to it and embrace that piece and try
24:38
to improve. And we don't want safety issues.
24:40
We don't. But we don't want to also take
24:42
away the joy of a craftsperson building something and walking
24:48
down the street later and pointing to their kids and
24:51
saying I built that. Now maybe they did the HVAC, but
24:55
they're going to tell you they built it.
24:56
And that's a really important connection to the value of this
25:00
industry and where it can go. So that's, and that's sort of,
25:04
you know, yes, we can take a factory, which great, opens us
25:07
up to childcare needs and more dependable schedules, things we
25:12
want, but they're still in there pulling cable or, you know, they
25:17
might be using a, a nail gun or maybe operating a robot to do
25:20
it. But like they're still working
25:22
and creating and, and something real is being formed right
25:25
before it goes out the outdoors to be put in on site and they
25:29
can go see it. So again, it's just, I don't
25:32
want to get rid of it all. I don't want to nerf the world,
25:34
but I do want to solve real problems.
25:36
And I want innovation teams to go out and feel those problems,
25:41
then go back and work on helping them.
25:44
Don't solve the world's problems for them.
25:47
Yeah, and and don't pretend you know the problem unless you've
25:49
felt the problem yourself. And this is this.
25:52
I haven't brought this one up in a in a quite a while, but it it
25:55
like really highlights is like there's this this friction in
25:59
our world around standardization versus creativity and craft.
26:04
And like if we over standardize, everything looks the same.
26:07
No one's proud of anything. We're assemblymen and women on a
26:11
line just producing the same thing over and over again and
26:15
homogenizes and, and, and loses its specialness versus
26:20
creativity, which is maybe a little bit slower, but a little
26:23
bit cooler. And, you know, we look at, and I
26:26
think This is why we still have an appreciation for historical
26:28
buildings. It's like there weren't drawings
26:30
for a lot of stuff. This was a, this was a Mason and
26:33
a chisel and a a lot of free time.
26:35
And that's where some of the coolest, most beautiful work was
26:37
ever done. And so there's this aspect of, I
26:42
think in this industry where we've historically looked at
26:46
productivity and innovation and us being laggards and IT, but
26:51
that may be a perspective that is disconnected from the
26:56
appreciation of the craft. This is not an industry that is
27:01
productive for productive sake. It is an industry that's
27:05
expressive. It's an industry that requires
27:08
collaboration and it creates this dilemma of like, how do we
27:14
do more with less? But how does less also become
27:17
more? It's just.
27:18
We do, we do more with more. I'll I'll be honest, that's what
27:21
we do. We do more with more because we
27:23
have more technology, we have more tools, we have more
27:26
robotics, we have more ability to see things.
27:30
And I haven't done this really on, I don't think on a show yet.
27:34
But like, I want you to think about the human body, right?
27:39
The human, we all are basically the same when you look at the
27:43
guts, right? It's not like when you're born,
27:47
they're like when you're forming, you're like, yeah,
27:48
let's put the lungs over here. Let's put the the guts in the
27:52
right leg today. Like that's not how it works.
27:55
They all are there in their places.
27:59
But then the genes show the expression, right?
28:03
So if we can as an industry start to understand that certain
28:09
things can be controlled and can be prescriptive, then we can
28:14
start to innovate again and we can continue to be creative,
28:20
right? We don't have to have everybody
28:22
turn out like a computer. That's what happened in
28:24
computers. Every computer on every shelf,
28:26
90% of them look the damn sane. Because we went with science,
28:29
technology and engineering and math, right?
28:34
We went, but we went with STEM. We need steam, we need art, but
28:40
we need to understand where that expression is important, right?
28:46
Our HVAC systems, our power systems, the things that fuel
28:50
us, which are our, you know, our, our building controls,
28:55
that's our brain. That's those things, right?
28:57
So if we can agree to standardize in a way to allow
29:02
those things to be fabricated off site, created differently
29:07
and really be consumed differently, we can free people
29:11
up to look for more creative ways to use the environments
29:17
around us. We've seen many expressions of
29:20
this already, and we don't give ourselves credit for that
29:24
innovation. Look around the world around
29:26
you. It's not like the new stadiums
29:28
that are being built today look like the old ones.
29:32
They're far more advanced, They're far more wired up,
29:34
they're far more interactive, and everyone is more complex,
29:38
coming out faster. So we are achieving innovation.
29:41
We are achieving change. Where else do you see this?
29:44
Hospitals, cancer centers. Those used to be like literally
29:49
the worst lighting, the worst tile, like cacophonous, awful
29:55
environments. And doctors realized that that
29:58
was actually negatively impacting patients.
30:01
So they started to push for open space, natural lighting, access
30:05
to nature, more plants inside, etcetera.
30:10
And that opened up an opportunity to build
30:14
differently, to service the world around us differently.
30:17
Who has time to think about what the next version of that would
30:20
be like for us, what the next version of water treatment of
30:25
desalina tion, or whatever it might be, is?
30:29
And I think that's, that's another really wonderful thread
30:32
that if we had enough time in the in the world to, to pull on
30:35
is like, you know, do buildings need to serve 1 user group or is
30:39
there a way for them to contextually fit in with the,
30:42
the fabric that they belong in? And you see something like at
30:45
Amazon Seattle headquarters, I have this beautiful forest and I
30:49
just enriches the, the urban fabric.
30:51
And so I avoiding another diatribe.
30:56
You know, we talked a little bit on the last episode about
30:58
creating alignment between what the field needs and what
31:02
leadership is looking for and, and where technology fits in.
31:07
And what I think I'm, I'm grabbing from our entire
31:10
conversation is, you know, is construction's biggest problem
31:14
technology and adoption of technology or is it really
31:18
translation between all of these teams and how they work
31:22
together? I would agree it's translation.
31:25
It's pulling a golden thread. So I nailed on the innovation
31:29
departments and now they're out there and I have friends in it
31:31
who are going, wait, you're telling me I'm not relevant?
31:33
Stop doing that. No, you are relevant.
31:35
Your relevancy is your ability to pull that golden thread
31:41
throughout the organization and to connect it together, to
31:44
connect what the leadership is wanting to what the field is
31:48
needing, to what everybody in between valuably needs to do to
31:53
get better and to improve, and then to connect it to your
31:58
partners, right? You are just a sum of one part.
32:01
You got to connect. So you innovation folks, that's
32:04
your true superpower. It's understanding what the
32:07
field needs, how they're going to get there, how it scales,
32:10
working with IT to make sure that it is scalable, that it is
32:14
secure, that it fits all of those needs.
32:16
Like there's so much to be done that that's how you put it
32:21
together and pull it forward and actually make it work and
32:26
understand it's always a work in progress and you're always open
32:32
to fail. And you can't fail at projects,
32:36
but you can fail at parts of innovation, at parts of change.
32:41
You can measure them, you can manage them, you can let them
32:45
go. That's one thing.
32:47
Innovation, if I can teach you anything, it's to learn what a
32:51
failure metric looks like and to cut bait and run.
32:55
Don't carry things around. Don't throw good money at bad.
32:58
So many of you do it. Don't change is hard, but it
33:03
creates opportunity. And you know, like I said, if,
33:06
if, if it wasn't hard, everybody just do it, we wouldn't talk
33:09
about it so much. And so this is this good CJ into
33:12
the Nexus and and we talked about this of like the younger
33:15
generation coming up. And then in their little
33:18
intermission, we talked about like shoulders of giant kind of
33:20
mentality where, you know, when starting influential culture,
33:25
you know, we didn't know that these podcasts and these
33:28
conversations and these panel topics would turn into an
33:32
influencing space. And then we see young leaders
33:35
kind of starting to emerge and showcasing their observations.
33:39
You know, where do they start to be the next folk who can grab
33:44
onto this golden thread and tug it across industry lines and and
33:48
what does that opportunity start to look like?
33:50
Well, again, it's it goes to they've they've been raised
33:53
differently and we all were. Every generation has a looks
33:58
down at the generation before it as naysayers, as lazy, you know,
34:02
whatever looks at the new generation that way.
34:04
It's not true. It's that, you know, they're at
34:07
a different phase and they're have more hope.
34:11
You know, the world hasn't beat it out of them yet, so let them
34:14
have it. And you're right, we were built
34:17
on the shoulders of giants. The interesting thing is that
34:20
was the choice of the giant. In the previous show, you heard
34:23
me say somebody took the time to have that conversation with me.
34:27
Somebody took the time to understand that I wasn't doing
34:30
something because I had an Mal intent.
34:34
But that at what? That I didn't have a piece of
34:36
information that I needed. And they trusted me to grow by
34:39
giving me that information. We live in a much scarier world
34:43
where those walls are gone and their social media, there's all
34:48
those things. That's not a deterrent.
34:51
You have to embrace it. You have to figure out how
34:54
you're going to invite them in and let them grow, let them
34:58
stand on your shoulders. And I, and I say this all the
35:01
time and I'm trying to learn it now as I get older and more
35:04
often is, look, nobody comes to the end and says, you know,
35:08
like, wow, I made lot. I made 3% margin on every
35:13
project I ever he made 3% project profit on every project
35:17
he delivered. That is not what I want to hear.
35:20
I want to hear the stories of how I impacted their lives, how
35:24
I leaned in and grew them. How something I said on this
35:28
podcast or on my platforms or in person influenced their career
35:34
in a positive way and drove them to believe in themselves.
35:38
Drove them to realize that if they stand on my shoulders,
35:43
they're not in thin air and out of oxygen.
35:45
That they're actually getting to the next level and that we need
35:48
them. You can't live forever.
35:51
You can't keep doing this. We need them, so lean in.
35:56
And I, I think that gets to one of the common threads from
36:00
everybody who's been on this show of like, what's kind of
36:03
actually beautiful about this industry in the, the tribal
36:06
knowledge aspect of this industry of having folks share
36:09
with you lessons that they've learned and helping that become
36:12
and teach a better builder or a better designer.
36:15
And the opportunity that we have in front of us where sharing has
36:19
become more normal, where there's more shows like this,
36:21
there's more people out doing things and, and asking more
36:24
questions. And so, you know, if we continue
36:27
to get this right and we continue to share and continue
36:31
to collaborate and continue to elevate these things, what do
36:34
you think construction can start to look like in 20 years?
36:36
I think more of what it is, the backbone of the world, of the
36:41
world economy, of the change for sustainability, the impact to
36:47
our environment. Think about it.
36:49
We impact everything. Financial markets don't exist
36:53
without us because we build the infrastructure and the power to
36:57
push them. We give everyone around us the
37:01
world they need to operate and do the things they need to do.
37:06
So what we can do is take advantage of the fact that we
37:10
are the greatest industry to exist.
37:14
The built world is the single most important industry that
37:20
exists, and it has the biggest opportunity to make an impact
37:25
down the road, not just now but into generations from now.
37:30
If you're the innovator. That changes the way we build
37:33
from a sustainability perspective, from a power
37:35
perspective that will live on for generations to come.
37:39
That is what we hear from people who leave our industry or leave
37:44
our companies is that they didn't feel as though they were
37:46
having an impact. What if we figured out a way to
37:50
show them not only how they're impacting our company, our
37:53
culture, our job, our project, but our industry and our future
37:58
and the world around us? I know that sounds like really
38:01
out there, but it's fundamentally true.
38:05
Every hospital changes that environment that you're in.
38:08
Every lab that comes up with a new drug to solve something
38:11
fixes that. That's your opportunity.
38:13
This is it's been incredible. And I know this one has been a
38:16
lot of fun because we're looking at the clock and I can't believe
38:18
we're already at time. And so I want to kind of wrap
38:21
with something that I think, you know, based off of just all, all
38:26
of our conversation. And if someone were to be
38:28
leaving this episode today, what is the one piece of advice you'd
38:33
give someone who's either entering construction in today
38:37
or, you know, looking to make their mark on this profession?
38:41
How would you how would you challenge them to look at?
38:43
I would challenge them to listen more.
38:45
I didn't do it enough in the beginning and I've learned over
38:48
time to do it. It's the greatest thing I get
38:51
from doing the podcast. It's the hardest thing about
38:53
doing what I'm doing right now with you because I do feel as
38:56
though I'm preaching a little bit.
38:57
But listen more, connect more. Realize it's always just a
39:01
person across the across the table, across the Internet,
39:05
across the phone from you. Connect with them and that
39:08
connection will build more connections.
39:10
And I also say be bold, ask difficult questions, try hard
39:16
things. Who knows, you might be the one
39:20
makes the most important change and ultimately, you might learn
39:24
something that you needed. And I know that I've learned so
39:28
much from those who came before me, who took that time, and I'm
39:32
grateful for them. And all I'm trying to do is pay
39:35
it, pay it forward. So keep paying it forward.
39:38
Thank you so much for joining me today.
39:40
Anybody who wants more of Jeff, tune into the Contact crew, hear
39:45
an interview like minded and different minded people in this
39:48
industry and use that as another opportunity to ask those
39:52
questions and engage with content that we're making.
39:55
Like this is, I think something that both you and I, we're doing
39:59
this because we love the profession and we love the
40:01
people in it. And we see how big of an impact
40:05
we make on whether it's the local restaurant to the
40:09
hospital. You know, this is the the take
40:12
away I'm leaving from this is you know.
40:15
Construction doesn't change because of the tools, because it
40:18
changes because people are willing to get close enough to
40:21
the work and to ask those better questions like you suggested.
40:24
So thank you again for joining me.
40:26
It's been such a wonderful conversation.
40:28
Thanks, Nick. I appreciate it.
40:30
If anything I said connected with anybody out there connect
40:32
with me. I'm on LinkedIn.
40:33
I'm all those places. I appreciate every connection
40:36
and yeah, thanks. So good.
40:40
Just want to close today's episode.
40:41
This was, you know, one of the most exciting episodes for me
40:46
because when I first got into this almost 2 1/2 years ago, and
40:52
when I say this, the podcasting space, it was because of folks
40:57
like Jeff. And it's funny to hear him say
40:59
is like, you know, I really the value in it is like what someone
41:02
influences me. And, you know, the gratitude
41:05
that I have of, you know, seeing what the impact he was making
41:10
and, and folks in the contact we were making and the and the
41:13
circle that formed from it. And there's the construction
41:18
dorks and all these other people who just started to create in
41:22
the space and, and share, you know, their perspective, whether
41:27
that's right, rather it's wrong, whether it's something to
41:29
disagree with, whether it's something to have a conversation
41:31
around, to me has been one of the most important and most
41:37
impactful things that drives progress in this industry.
41:43
And so I'm really excited because next week, which is
41:46
going to be maybe a month and 1/2 from before this episode
41:50
comes out, we are getting together in Denver for the AEC
41:54
Integration Summit. And this is something I've been
41:57
doing for four years. And it brings together people
42:00
from tech world, from financial, from trades, from designers to
42:06
managers and everyone in between.
42:09
And we talked about something called shared pains in the
42:12
industry. And when I go to those work
42:16
groups or roundtables or whatever we want to call them, I
42:20
come back really charged because I realized that this industry is
42:24
full of incredibly intelligent people who care very deeply, not
42:30
just about the jobs to be done, which is something that we
42:33
talked about a lot on the previous episode, but also about
42:38
the world we see when construction goes right and when
42:42
design goes right. And how it actually has come so
42:47
far that it's almost painful to cite the quotes that were
42:52
historically a laggard in construction technology adoption
42:55
or productivity rates haven't improved or this, that.
42:59
And the other thing, because it in many ways, those data points,
43:04
and this is The funny thing about data and anybody who's
43:07
ever, you know, been hit by the data stick before is data often
43:11
lacks sometimes the context or the empathy for the worker or
43:17
the work even. And many of the Times Now that I
43:22
am working a lot more closely with data, you know, the first
43:25
thing I see, especially with AI and data is AI is going to tell
43:29
you something and it's going to infer something, but it's it's
43:33
going to miss the story. It's going to miss the things
43:36
that the data doesn't tell the why the data is the way it is or
43:40
where the company is at its point in time or the decisions
43:43
that were made to to perhaps not focus on something because there
43:47
was something else that needed to get be get done.
43:51
And this to me is like where it becomes so important to share
43:55
these stories, to rumble, to have conversations with others.
44:00
And so, you know, if there's one thing you walk away from this
44:02
episode with, it's to talk to as many people across this industry
44:08
as you can to tune into shows like this or like Contact or any
44:14
of the many great shows that are out there that elevate real
44:19
people doing real work to share what is actually happening in
44:27
this space and what opportunities there are because
44:30
there's so many. And I'm very excited to see a
44:34
world that is, you know, more interested in those
44:37
conversations, more wired to build.
44:39
So with that, you're going to sign off.
44:41
I hope you enjoy returning back to the two-part format.
44:45
Please let me know, you know, reach out to me on LinkedIn,
44:48
follow the show. There's gonna be updates.
44:50
Season 3 is exciting. As I said, it's gonna be a year
44:53
of change and experimentation, and I appreciate anytime someone
44:58
reaches out to me with feedback, what they think, what they
45:01
heard, what they're thinking about, and look forward to
45:04
producing more exciting episodes, more exciting content,
45:08
more exciting things to think about when it comes to
45:10
construction innovation and the people, the processes and the
45:13
technology that it impacts. So until next time, stay wired
45:17
to build and have a great rest of your day.