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Authoritarian reach inside your democracy · Save Democracy

0:04
Welcome to Save Democracy.
0:06
I'm Katherine Davies.
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Today, we're peering into the world of authoritarian control, how state power,
0:34
security laws, and surveillance can be used to limit dissent and repress minority
0:40
populations, and how a state's tentacles can reach beyond borders, pressuring
0:46
diaspora within democratic countries.
0:50
Since about 2014, many independent sources have reported that large numbers
0:55
of Uyghurs in Xinjiang in northwest China have been held in camps under
1:01
high-tech surveillance prevented from freely practicing their religion
1:05
and language, pushed into forced or coercive work programs, and subjected
1:11
to pressure over family planning.
1:15
China says it is fighting extremism and providing job training.
1:19
Critics say the measures deliberately target an ethnic group and amount
1:23
to serious human rights violations.
1:27
Uyghurs living abroad face continued pressure.
1:31
Their relatives in China may be harassed to silence them.
1:36
Our guest today is Yalkun Uluyol, the China researcher at Human Rights Watch.
1:42
Welcome, Yalkun.
1:44
Thank you for having me.
1:45
It's good to see you here.
1:47
I wonder, where would you like to start?
1:49
Would you give us a picture of the current situation for the Uyghurs in Xinjiang?
1:57
Yes.
1:57
Actually, August (2026) marks the 10 year anniversary of the escalation
2:01
of the crackdown in Xinjiang that amounts to crimes against humanity.
2:06
In August 2016 Chinese government started to target majority of Uyghurs, and also
2:12
Kazakhs and other Turkic Muslims in the region, subjecting them to arbitrary
2:17
detention, long imprisonments, family separation, and forcible assimilation
2:22
into the Han Chinese culture.
2:25
And, in this period of time, the Chinese government has isolated the
2:29
region from rest of the world, including many Uyghurs who are residing abroad,
2:33
and the Chinese government made it punishable crime for Uyghurs in
2:37
Xinjiang to contact relatives abroad.
2:39
According to my recent research, many Uyghurs are now trying to reunite
2:44
with their family members after a decade-long separation, and the Chinese
2:48
government is using this vulnerability of separated Uyghur families to target
2:53
them, repress them, even abroad, violating their right to freedom of
2:57
expression, assembly, and family life.
3:01
Right.
3:02
Well, there's an awful lot there.
3:03
Can I just understand something you said?
3:06
Perhaps unpack it a bit.
3:07
Isolating families abroad meaning that they can't communicate and
3:13
connect with their family in Xinjiang.
3:15
Is that what you meant?
3:16
Yes.
3:17
That's exactly what I meant.
3:18
And could you maybe talk me through an example of what that looks like, what's
3:22
going on for perhaps a family that just as a typical situation that we can
3:27
understand at the level of the family?
3:30
Oh, that's me.
3:31
I am Uyghur myself.
3:33
I was just a random international student back in 2016.
3:36
I went back to visit my family in summer 2016 and then returned to Turkey
3:41
where I was studying for summer school, and then that was my last visit.
3:47
And starting from September 2016 many people back home started deleting me from
3:52
their Chinese social media accounts.
3:55
When I try to call my relatives back home as soon as they hear my voice they
4:00
hang up the phone and say, "Do not call us again." So for me it started in late
4:05
2016 and gradually I lost contact with everyone, literally everyone that I love.
4:12
That includes my grandparents.
4:14
My grandma passed away in 2018 and I heard the news from my father who
4:20
had minimal contact with me in 2018, literally not hearing her voice for
4:26
the last two years before her passing.
4:29
The same thing happened to my grandfather who passed away later in 2022.
4:34
And, you know until June 2018 I only had a minimal contact with my father who
4:41
was a businessman based in Guangzhou.
4:44
His name is Memet Yaqup.
4:45
He was a university graduate, he had his own business.
4:49
Oftentimes people ask me if he is an obvious target but
4:53
he was not an obvious target.
4:54
He was just a random other person who was minding his own business trying to support
4:58
his family; me and my sister and my mom.
5:01
What kind of business was he running?
5:03
He was running a fruit business basically honey melon.
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He was transporting honey melon from my hometown to Guangzhou and disseminating
5:12
it in China and exporting it to other countries in Southeast Asia.
5:16
And he vanished in June 2018 and it took me two years to figure
5:25
out whether he was alive or not.
5:27
So I came to the knowledge that he was detained in one of the political education
5:32
camps in my hometown Kumul in 2020 and then I was like, on the one hand, I
5:41
was glad that he was still alive because many people have died in this period.
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One person who conveyed this message and confirmed his detention, told
5:51
me that I should be thankful that my father and my uncle are still alive.
5:55
And it took me another two years to confirm that he-- they were imprisoned.
5:59
My uncle was for life, my father was for 16 years imprisonment.
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And the thing is, I still have no idea what were the crimes alleged against them.
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And I don't know if they had a lawyer to defend them in court.
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I don't know if they ever appeared in a court.
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I don't know what are the due processes.
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And many Uyghurs, like my father and their uncle, were imprisoned without
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due process unjustifiably in a massive crackdown simply because they were
6:28
Uyghurs with no apparent crime, right?
6:31
So that is basically me losing contact with my family
6:35
members, including my father.
6:37
And I still ask the same question: Where is my father?
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I still don't have the answer.
6:43
I still don't know where he's held, in which prison, and whether
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he's in good health.
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The last time I heard from him was from a third source in 2024, and it's been two
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years I have heard nothing from my father.
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And there are hundreds and thousands of Uyghurs like myself who are simply asking
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the same question - Where is our family?
7:08
So that's a systematic isolation of families abroad
7:14
The Chinese government targeted peaceful expression of Uyghur identity, let
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it be ethnic cultural identity or religious identity or expressions.
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Chinese government targeted Uyghurs for simple things like going
7:29
to mosque regularly or having a Quran recitation in their phone.
7:34
This is outside the country or inside?
7:36
Inside the country.
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Right inside the country many people face long term imprisonment simply for
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traveling abroad to countries which the Chinese authorities deemed sensitive.
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So that is a crackdown based on one's distinct identity and culture
7:55
and religious affiliation And all of a sudden prominent professors at
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reputable Chinese universities became 'a terrorist' because the Chinese
8:04
government says we don't like you anymore.
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Then they put them in prison.
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The Chinese government says it protects the rights of Uyghurs.
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Uyghurs are living happy life in Xinjiang It dismisses well documented evidence
8:18
of crimes against humanity even though OSCHR The UN Human Rights body released a
8:23
report in 2022 alleging that the Chinese governments violations in the region
8:28
may amount to crimes against humanity.
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It has been a decade for the Chinese Government's impunity for its crimes
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against the Uyghurs and with international pressure and with people like me
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speaking out, the Chinese government is now trying to present a public
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image of normalcy in Xinjiang They're inviting diplomats media or even
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Uyghurs to participate in propaganda tours strictly surveilled orchestrated
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propaganda tours through the region to say these people are happy and presenting
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Uyghurs as exotic dancing creators existing within state surveillance and
9:09
repression however, at the same time, targeting Uyghurs for being who they are
9:13
and people in those groups that you described that are invited in Are
9:18
they able to travel freely within Xinjiang Or are they in an organized
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tour and only speak to who they're allowed to speak to, are you aware?
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I spoke to Uyghurs who have participated in these propaganda tours.
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They told me that they were directly taken away from the airport to go
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to weeks long or two weeks long propaganda tours across Xinjiang.
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Even if they are all Uyghurs with foreign nationalities, they were forced
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to speak Mandarin between themselves.
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They were taken to like mosques or Islamic centers to showcase the religious freedom.
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But then later on when they want to independently go to a mosque, they saw
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the mosques were closed and so on.
9:55
And these Uyghurs' motivation is primarily to see their
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family members whom they have been separated from for almost a decade.
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And I recently did a bunch of interviews in Australia, talking to
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Uyghurs who recently visited Xinjiang with Australian passports, right?
10:11
And they told me they were pressed and interrogated to provide
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information about other activists.
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They were strictly surveilled when they were in Xinjiang.
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They had to report their daily activities to the local police.
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Sometimes they had to stay in government designated hotel rather
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than with their family members and these individuals who are able to visit
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Xinjiang There are a select few, right?
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Not all Uyghurs, including myself, can go back to Xinjiang freely.
10:38
And they are strictly vetted individuals and despite the strict
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vetting and, other approval
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So they can't be working for Human Rights Watch, for example.
10:48
Exactly.
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So they are non-activists who are just trying to go and visit their
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families, and the Chinese government is using this vulnerability to not
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only to repress their freedom but also to use them as a means to control and
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surveil diaspora in free societies.
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So they're interviewing them inside China when they come to visit to
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try to reach out to their families.
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I'm assuming, in some cases, they manage to connect with their families.
11:15
Are you aware?
11:16
Yes, of course.
11:18
I have interviewed people who went back and visited their
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family members, but at what cost?
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And during the trip, they're interviewed about their contacts in Australia to
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find out who are activists in Australia.
11:32
Yes.
11:33
I would not call them interviews.
11:34
They were interrogated by police, and they were pressed to provide information
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and threatened with the safety of themselves and their family members.
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By the Chinese police.
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By the Chinese police.
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One of them told me that he was interrogated more than a dozen
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times, and in one instance, it lasted more than seven hours.
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The police was asking about everything, about his life both
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in Xinjiang, his connections in Xinjang, but also his family life
12:01
and social circles in Australia.
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And the police asked him, "You have to give us something." They were asking
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for contact information or addresses of prominent activists in Australia.
12:13
They were also pressed to provide information about Uyghur language schools
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in Australia, because many in the Uyghur diaspora try to preserve their culture and
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language, in diasporas, because it's no longer possible in their homelands, right?
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And the Chinese government is even coming after those weekend schools
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because they see that these spaces
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(house) interactions and diaspora solidarity,
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so they are targeting them as well.
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So these are quite blatant acts of what we call transnational repression.
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Now, I don't know when you conducted this research, but have you got to the
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point where you've developed a report on this, where you've been able to
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systematically record what you've heard?
12:58
Yes, we… I conducted most of my interviews in Australia in
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April and May this year (2026).
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And we released a report earlier this month in August.
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And then, we also have written to the Australian and Chinese government
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about the findings, and the Chinese government has not responded to us.
13:16
But the Australian Government Department of Home Affairs, replied to us and said
13:20
in part that these acts are unacceptable
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So people can find that report on the Human Rights Watch website?
13:27
Is that right?
13:27
Yes.
13:28
All our reportings are available on our website.
13:31
Well, some of the things that you said about what's happening
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in Australia for example sound illegal under Australian law.
13:39
Right.
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I think it is not only a problem in Australia.
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We have documented similar instances elsewhere as well including in the
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UK, in Europe, in France, in Canada.
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I have interviewed many Uyghurs about travel restrictions and
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intimidations against them last year, and it's a global phenomenon.
13:58
And we have seen the actions of Chinese government are getting bolder meaning
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that, they are targeting, pressing people in free societies to basically
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spy for the government and provide information about other people.
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And many governments have adopted some regulations around this especially
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within the scope of, for instance foreign interference legislations.
14:21
There are reporting mechanisms in some governments to allow those people to
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flag those incidences to the governments.
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However, we believe that those measures are not sufficient to address what we
14:33
call transnational repression because most of the time those intimidations
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and harassments do not meet the criminal threshold of those foreign
14:41
interference (legislations) so therefore we ask governments to enact and design
14:46
legislation that specifically addresses the cases of transnational repression and
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offer protection for those people, and in exercising their rights in free societies.
14:57
The organizations like the language schools and the different community
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organisations in the diaspora, I would expect there'd be some kind of
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protection that they'd be entitled to
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Hopefully.
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I mean, there are, governments who encourage Uyghurs or other
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people to have those institutions.
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There are programs that are funded by government and supported by
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other civil society groups because preserving Uyghur culture and language
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has become impossible in China, therefore the diaspora works very hard.
15:29
And I can share you one account, an interviewee shared with me.
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So basically this person went to Xinjiang, with her kid, and that kid
15:40
growing up in Australia spoke perfect Uyghur because the family taught
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the child to speak Uyghur.
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And then, basically this person was hoping that their children will have an
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opportunity to play with other Uyghur kids in the neighborhood where they grew up.
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But apparently when they tried to speak to other Uyghur kids on the street in Uyghur,
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they were unable to communicate because kids in the streets of Xinjiang can no
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longer speak Uyghur properly because they are mandated to speak Mandarin
16:09
all the time because of government's assimilationist policies, right?
16:13
That is one of the other reasons why the Chinese government is coming after
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diaspora activities, even if they are not political, even if they are only cultural,
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because everything about Uyghur identity, culture, or expression of Uyghur identity
16:26
has become a political thing, right?
16:30
And, and that's where we observe an increasing pattern
16:34
of extraterritorial application of Chinese laws and regulations.
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In July, the Chinese government started to implement what it calls the New
16:44
Law on Promoting Ethnic Unity and Progress, extending this discourse
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of ethnic unity that it deploys to repress Uyghurs to abroad, including
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diaspora members and other people who are speaking on these issues.
16:59
Right.
17:00
But their jurisdiction doesn't extend to these countries.
17:03
So how does that law have effect?
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So the Chinese government says that they can punish individuals for
17:12
damaging ethnic unity, even if they engage in these activities abroad and
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they can be legally held accountable.
17:18
And we have documented cases of Chinese international students who
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went back to Xinjiang and they were arrested because of their peaceful
17:26
expression of their views on those issues when they were studying abroad.
17:30
We have a case of a Chinese international student, Tara Zhang Yadi, who was studying
17:35
in France and advocating for Tibetan rights, and upon her return she's now
17:40
arrested and facing a long prison term.
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She is a very young, ambitious individual who tries to understand Tibetan
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culture and who tries to advocate for Tibetan rights, and for the Chinese
17:52
government it has become a crime.
17:54
Chinese power has risen in the world and it has a huge economy, and they've
18:00
lifted a lot of people out of poverty.
18:02
And on a lot of measures there's a lot of success in China, and I'm
18:07
just trying to get my head around exactly - what are they scared of?
18:13
Why on earth would they persecute these people and go to such lengths to stamp out
18:22
Uyghur identity, and other minorities?
18:25
What are they so scared of?
18:27
Do you have any idea what's at the bottom of it?
18:29
Apart from, well I understand Xinjiang is strategic for the Chinese.
18:36
It has a lot of important economic resources.
18:39
It's an important part of the Belt and Road Initiative, and they want
18:44
complete control over the territory, that that's important for their economy.
18:48
I've heard this argument.
18:50
But I'm just curious about what you think.
18:53
What are they scared of?
18:57
I think it's a paranoia.
19:00
For the Chinese government or for China, the existence and the total
19:06
superiority of the Communist Party is the ultimate goal of every progress.
19:12
So if you are talking about economic progress, if you are talking about,
19:16
whatever developments, that all has to serve the interest of the Communist
19:20
Party, and it has to consolidate its total control of the territory and
19:24
its people, how they think, how they behave, how they interact, how they make
19:29
money, how they spend money, how they travel, and how they express themselves.
19:35
Under Xi Jinping, China has become increasingly authoritarian.
19:39
On the one hand, we see this global phenomena that's called
19:42
the rise of China, right?
19:44
But then at the same time, it has become increasingly authoritarian within,
19:48
that the Chinese government deploys mass surveillance of its population.
19:52
It isolates the whole of China from the rest of the world with
19:57
what's called the Great Firewall.
19:59
The internet that we know today in China is an intranet.
20:04
Intranet.
20:07
Chinese people cannot access content abroad.
20:10
They probably cannot listen to your podcast or view your podcast, right?
20:14
At the same time, the Chinese government is also making it very difficult for other
20:18
people to access information in China.
20:21
So coming back to your question, what is the ultimate goal
20:24
of the Chinese government?
20:25
The total superiority, social control, and stability for the Chinese Communist Party.
20:32
So regime security basically.
20:34
Exactly.
20:35
So anything that the Chinese government deems that is beyond the ideological
20:40
uniformity that it promotes - let it be Uyghur identity, let it be Uyghur culture,
20:44
let it be a Tibetan monk who's trying to preserve their own religious freedom,
20:49
or let it be an underground Catholic who tries to show loyalty only to the Holy
20:53
See, or let it be a young university student who held white papers in front of
20:59
the campuses to protest the government's draconian zero COVID policy, right?
21:05
Or people who are running on streets to protect animal rights.
21:08
As soon as the Chinese government deems those acts or their consequences sensitive
21:14
to the existence and the uniformity of the ideological sentiments of the
21:19
CCP, then they can come after them.
21:21
So what we have seen in the case of Uyghurs is an extreme version
21:25
of this total control and paranoia, and we have seen increasingly that
21:30
those measures are implemented for other groups in China as well.
21:34
And there's also the umbrella-holding, students of Hong Kong that come to mind.
21:40
Exactly.
21:40
Whilst I understand the information is controlled inside
21:47
the country, what is the propaganda message around this?
21:50
Is it one of unity, stability above all
21:54
Yeah.
21:55
For Uyghurs, the Chinese government says that they are countering terrorism,
22:00
extremism and separatism, but in reality they are targeting peaceful expression
22:05
of Uyghur identity as I have described.
22:08
And for the Chinese government, Uyghurs live very happy life in Xinjiang.
22:12
They're lifted out of poverty, but in reality, they are subjected to
22:17
mass atrocities including arbitrary detention, mass imprisonment,
22:21
and state imposed forced labor.
22:23
Which the ordinary Chinese people who might be following 'the news'
22:28
wouldn't learn about, is that right?
22:31
I can give you one example again from my early childhood.
22:34
When you live under
22:37
such a regime, you face propaganda.
22:39
I was brought up and I was educated as a Uyghur person in a way that the
22:44
Chinese government desire to engineer me as an individual into society.
22:49
So I was taught a lot about ethnic unity.
22:52
I was taught a lot about the inseparable connections between the minority
22:57
nationalities and the Han Chinese people.
23:00
But when I traveled to other provinces or when I went to visit my father in
23:05
Guangzhou and interacted with other people in those regions, they had
23:08
no idea about what is called "ethnic unity." So it was the curriculum and
23:13
the propaganda designed for us, to keep us loyal to the Chinese government.
23:17
And if we deviate from those propaganda messages or ideological controls
23:24
then we become a problem, right?
23:27
And we can see very obviously how a repressive regime can eradicate rights
23:33
in a very, very short period of time.
23:37
Let's talk about Hong Kong.
23:39
Before 2020, Hong Kong had a relative democracy.
23:44
People were allowed to and people were able to protest, people
23:48
were able to assemble, people were able to do a lot of things.
23:53
But now what Hong Kong has become has shown us an example of how a totalitarian
24:01
and authoritarian regime can eradicate human rights in less than five years.
24:06
Now, this year marks six year anniversary of the imposition of the National Security
24:11
Law, and today in Hong Kong, people are facing long prison terms simply
24:16
because they wanted to commemorate the victims of the Tiananmen Square Massacre.
24:20
And Jimmy Lai, the founder of Apple Daily, was sentenced to 20-year imprisonment
24:26
simply because he was doing his job and running a newspaper reporting
24:30
what's happening on the ground, right?
24:32
Hong Kong democracy is right next door, right next door to the mainland.
24:36
And of course there's Taiwan, and it is actually one of the healthiest democracies
24:41
in the world, and it's right next door.
24:44
And this reminds listeners of somewhere like Ukraine.
24:49
The Russian regime didn't like the fact from 2014 especially, that there was
24:54
this real democratic desire from everyday people in Ukraine determined to join
25:03
Europe and grow their democracy, and it was right next door to the Russian state.
25:07
You talked about the diaspora in democratic countries around the
25:11
world who are basically silenced by the way they see other people in the
25:18
community treated when they speak out in some way or protect Uyghur language
25:24
or try to reach out to their family
25:27
And how inside the community people have been forced to name each other.
25:32
I mean, this is horrendous.
25:33
And they're inside democratic countries.
25:36
Is there some way the people listening or viewing this podcast that live in these
25:41
countries where the diaspora live, is there some way they can do something?
25:45
Is there some way they can express their solidarity and their desire to raise their
25:54
concern with the Canadian government, the French government, the German government,
25:59
the Australian government about what's happening inside their country
26:05
Definitely.
26:06
There are a lot of things that we can actually do.
26:08
One of the interviewees that I talked to in Australia was asking me, "Am I less
26:16
Australian than any other Australian?" Because he's living in a free society.
26:21
He has the freedom of expression.
26:24
He can do whatever he wants without repercussions because
26:27
he's now in a free society.
26:29
However, he's not able to do so because of concerns over the safety of his parents,
26:34
people back in China, that the Chinese government might retaliate because simply
26:39
he was exercising his rights, right?
26:42
And we also have Hong Kongers living among us with bounties on their heads,
26:47
seeking safety from the Hong Kong and the Chinese government, and Tibetans
26:51
who are trying to preserve their religious independence from Chinese
26:54
government's interferences and so on.
26:57
The first thing that
26:59
the Chinese government is afraid of people talking is about
27:03
people raising those concerns.
27:06
I think raising awareness around these issues and confronting the Chinese
27:10
government's propaganda is point zero that we can do, like everybody can do.
27:16
So writing to your member of Parliament?
27:19
Exactly.
27:20
Looking to see if there's a, some kind of pressure group in your country
27:23
where you can at least express support to that pressure group, whether
27:26
it's funding or signing a petition
27:29
Exactly.
27:31
Writing to your MPs, pressuring your government to take a stronger stance
27:35
against the Chinese government, asking your government to enact legislations
27:40
that prevent forced labor products to enter your market so that you
27:44
are not complicit in state-imposed forced labor in Xinjiang for instance
27:48
One, one second.
27:49
You said to stop importing products from forced labor.
27:54
How is that identified?
27:56
Is there some kind of platform where you're able to identify
28:00
what you're talking about?
28:02
We… I have worked extensively on forced labor in the Uyghur region.
28:08
Xinjiang is a production hub for a lot of products that we consume daily.
28:13
It accounts for about 80% of China's cotton.
28:16
That is about 25% of global cotton production.
28:19
About 10% of global aluminum is produced from Xinjiang.
28:23
About 35% of solar panels* are coming from Xinjiang [*see show notes] and
28:26
there is widespread and systematic state-imposed forced labor in Xinjiang
28:30
where hundreds and thousands of Uyghurs are forced to work within
28:34
state-sponsored labor transfer programs.
28:36
And many governments are trying to take action and enact forced labor
28:41
bans in their jurisdictions and you can play a role in that, right?
28:45
Pressing your MPs to give their opinion about this legislation,
28:49
pressing the governments to do so.
28:51
So it's already clear to governments around the world where these products
28:56
are coming from and they are trying to take action, to block it through
29:00
legislation, and people can express their support when they're writing to their MP?
29:04
Yes, exactly.
29:05
We have in Europe Corporate Sustainability and Due Diligence
29:09
Directive and Forced Labor Regulation.
29:12
We have Modern Slavery Act in the UK but that's not very strong and that
29:16
does not prevent goods to enter the UK market even if there's a big label on
29:20
them written "Made in forced labor."
29:23
So we can take a lot of action.
29:25
But one other thing that I would encourage the listeners to do
29:30
is to talk to these people.
29:33
They are living among you.
29:35
They might be your neighbor.
29:36
They might be your coworker.
29:38
They might be somebody that you know from a distance.
29:40
Just say hi and ask how they are doing.
29:44
Sometimes a gentle and kind question about their wellbeing or saying that
29:51
I support you and I stand with you in solidarity can encourage those people to
29:56
feel the belonging and the freedom to live among us in these free societies.
30:01
And we have witnessed global democratic backsliding, and oftentimes
30:06
the Chinese government is using this opportunity to become bolder
30:11
about its actions in democratic societies targeting critical voices.
30:16
They are coming after academics at UK universities who are working on
30:20
sensitive issues related to China.
30:22
They're coming after students who are participating in discussions
30:26
that are critical of China.
30:27
So I think it is, a starting point to have awareness around these issues
30:32
and do whatever that we can within our individual capacity to counter Chinese
30:37
government oppression and show solidarity with repressed people, including
30:41
Uyghurs, Tibetans, and Hong Kongers.
30:44
And at the international level, is there any kind of movement to create
30:49
a transnational repression treaty or some kind of international instrument?
30:56
The UN Human Rights Office released a brief on transnational repression.
31:01
G7 countries issued a statement in 2025 in Canada about transnational
31:07
repression, promising that they will develop mechanisms to
31:10
counter transnational repression.
31:12
And it's not only Chinese government who is a perpetrator government.
31:16
Russia, Iran, and many other governments come after dissent in other societies and
31:21
are forms of transnational repression.
31:23
And this term is quite new in policy circles or in academic
31:28
discussions, but the methods, the intimidations, the pathways, the
31:32
patterns have always been there.
31:35
It's not a new phenomenom.
31:37
And it sounds like there's extensive records of it all taking place
31:41
thanks to organizations like yours.
31:43
Thank you very much.
31:44
And there is an understanding, and there is an opportunity to do more to counter
31:50
repressive tactics of silencing dissent.
31:52
And is there a particular entity that's looking at this instrument,
31:56
international instrument?
31:57
There are many people who are working around these issues.
32:00
For instance, in the UK we have a Transnational Repression Working Group
32:05
consisting of organizations working around these issues, academics, diaspora
32:10
members, and they are trying to pressure the UK government to better implement
32:15
policies and mechanisms to counter transnational repression in the UK.
32:19
And we have a similar working group in the EU, and there is a parliamentary
32:23
inquiry into transnational repression.
32:25
I recommend people to go and take a look at it.
32:28
It does not only explore China's transnational repression, but
32:31
also other governments as well.
32:33
There's a lot going on in the background, but we need faster action from government.
32:37
We imagine sometimes that an international instrument might
32:40
be a powerful way because it's so systematic it seems among authoritarian
32:47
regimes, and it's so difficult to deal with, as you were saying.
32:51
A lot of the behavior doesn't quite reach that threshold of being illegal.
32:56
Well, there's an increasing understanding that it's not a
32:58
problem of one or two countries.
33:00
Yes.
33:00
It's a global phenomenon.
33:01
Yes.
33:02
And we have written a Global Transnational Repression report back in 2024 as
33:06
Human Rights Watch, and we have sets of recommendations for international
33:10
organizations, governments, and European Union and, and for everybody
33:14
who is concerned around these issues.
33:17
Well, that's a great reference because, if somebody's writing to their MP,
33:20
for example, or maybe a committee in their parliament that would have some
33:24
influence in this regard, they can attach that report, or use that report for
33:29
material when they're writing the letter.
33:32
Anything else you wanted to add at this point?
33:35
The thing that I want to say, is that the Chinese government has committed
33:39
crimes against humanity against my people and it's been a decade since
33:43
they have escalated this repression and detained up to one million
33:46
Uyghurs to political education camps.
33:49
Hundreds and thousands remain in prison And shamelessly, the regime promotes
33:53
normalcy in my homeland while people like myself are looking still for
33:58
whereabouts of our family members.
34:00
And the Chinese government has also pressured other governments not to
34:03
speak out on these issues and they have dominated multilateral discussions.
34:08
They prevented states to discuss violations in Xinjiang at Human Rights
34:12
Council and they're getting away with it.
34:14
And a decade of impunity is another wake up call to take concrete action
34:19
and stand in solidarity with Uyghurs.
34:21
Pressure your government to double down their pressure on the Chinese government
34:26
to end their crimes against humanity.
34:28
Because the Chinese government is so repressive, our demands from the Chinese
34:32
government might not work but pressure from other governments are needed
34:37
to address the repression including forced labor bans and legislations
34:42
to counter transnational repression
34:45
Thank you.
34:45
That's a great message to finish on.
34:47
Really appreciate your time today and the great work you're up to.
34:52
Thank you very much for hosting me.
34:55
Bye for now.
34:56
The Chinese Government denies having committed human rights abuses in Xinjiang.
35:03
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35:06
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35:14
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