Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 29 - Are You a Zionist?

Transcript

Ep. 29 - Are You a Zionist? · Martyr's Row

• 0:00
  This week on Martyrs Row... Did Jesus have a
• 0:02
  stunt double? Did the Rothschilds finance the
• 0:06
  modern state of Israel? Will the South rise again?
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  Does the Bible even say anything about a third
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  temple being built? Should Christians be Zionists?
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  Let's find out! 3, 2, 1... Saint Pothinus Saint
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  Pothinus, the first bishop of lions, though advanced
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  in age and feeble in body, bore a mighty spirit
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  in the confession of Christ. In the persecution
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  stirred under Marcus Aurelius, he was brought
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  before the rulers, and they asked him, Who is
• 0:52
  the Christian God? He boldly answered, If thou
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  be worthy, thou shalt know. At this, they were
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  filled with rage, and the multitude fell upon
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  him with the blows and reproaches, so that his
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  body, being ninety years of age, was scarce able
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  to endure. Cast into a foul prison, laden with
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  stripes and evil handling, within two days he
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  yielded up his spirit, yet his constancy strengthened
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  the church in Gaul. Thus fell this blessed martyr.
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  who in great weakness was made strong and in
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  the midst of cruelty overcame by patience. Anno
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  Domini, 177. Welcome. We want you to stay. Welcome.
• 1:58
  Enter into our living room. You could even stay
• 2:00
  past the episode. You could. Just leave it at
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  the end. Wherever you are, you're allowed to
• 2:05
  be there? Hopefully. Unless you're like, what
• 2:08
  if someone's listening to us while they're robbing
• 2:11
  someone's house? That would be insane. That would
• 2:13
  be, why? Take your headphones out. You probably
• 2:15
  need to be aware of your surroundings. You might
• 2:18
  get caught. Yeah. Why do we help them? Oh yeah,
• 2:24
  stop what you're doing. Put the things down.
• 2:26
  Keep listening, but not at their house. Yeah,
• 2:28
  yeah. Okay, we'll walk you through this. Step
• 2:31
  one, put everything down, turn around, walk away.
• 2:35
  If you have to do the activity of wearing a balaclava.
• 2:37
  It's not good. Wait, what? Isn't that what those
• 2:39
  masks are called? A ski mask? A baraclava? Balaclava?
• 2:43
  No idea. Might have made that up. That sounds
• 2:46
  like a German thing I don't understand. Which
• 2:48
  is funny because I just said any activity you
• 2:50
  have to wear a ski mask isn't good. Except skiing?
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  Skiing I guess is alright. Unless it's someone
• 2:57
  else's ski. But think about like if you're just
• 2:59
  wearing a ski mask and not like a helmet and
• 3:01
  goggles and stuff and you're coming down a mountain
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  and you're like oh that person looks terrifying.
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  But also your eyes are like just... Imagine just
• 3:16
  a ski mask though. That's wild. Cause your eyes
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  are just wide open to the elements. That would
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  be tough. I'd have my eyes closed the whole time.
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  But then why even wear a mask? Oh, I guess to
• 3:29
  keep your face warm. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
• 3:32
  Wear a mask, kids. Wear a mask. We're giving
• 3:37
  some weird advice here. A ski mask. You know,
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  speaking of weird advice, I love weird advice.
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  I'd actually be surprised if you if you heard
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  this, okay, because I just found this out and
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  I thought it was hilarious Okay, I like hilarious
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  things because I don't do you remember on our
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  last episode one of the one of the little tangents
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  I went on I don't because we there's a lot how
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  many are there? Yeah, too many. I mean I I might
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  but I don't remember offhand. Okay, that's fair
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  So I asked the question I was like, you know
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  be interesting if you get to heaven like God,
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  did I make you laugh? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I can
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  remember that. Yeah, yeah. We went off on that
• 4:13
  for a while. We did, because it was funny. Yeah.
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  Well, you know what else is funny? What? Is that
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  in some early Christian communities... I thought
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  you were about to say Psalm. Psalm 103. In Psalm
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  early Christian communities. That would be great,
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  actually. In some early Christian communities.
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  Especially those... influenced by apocryphal
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  writings, because there were a lot of them. There
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  was a belief that while Jesus was on the cross,
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  that he laughed. Huh, where does that come from?
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  So this comes from, it shows up in the text called
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  Acts of John, which is second century. It's not
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  part of the Bible, obviously. So in it, John
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  has a vision where Christ explains that the one
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  on the cross was a kind of physical stand -in.
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  Well, the true Christ was above the cross laughing
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  at the powers of the world who thought they had
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  defeated him a stunt double So yeah, it's kind
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  of like it's kind of like an anime, you know,
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  it's that scene where it's like the villains
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  like beating down the hero and then he's like
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  So I could I could see how they got there though
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  in the sense that like like in a near -death
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  experience The the soul of the spirit lifting
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  out of the body Yeah, so like I could see that
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  type of idea and then he but but laughter is
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  tough It's funny cuz it's like I'm just imagining
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  the scene Like they're sitting there watching
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  some guy just in agony and then she's like But
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  the weird thing about it is Mary yes weeping
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  at the foot of the cross. Yeah So Jesus is above
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  just laughing in your face? He's like, hilarious.
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  You actually buy this? He's like, Mom, I'm right
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  here. Here I am. Yeah, so the idea was that the
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  rulers of this world, spiritual and earthly,
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  were being mocked, thinking they had won. But
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  in reality, Christ was untouchable. It's a very
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  different picture, obviously, from the suffering
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  servant that we see in the Gospels. It paints
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  a very different picture. It reflects, you know,
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  more of a mystical, fringe, even proto -Gnostic
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  streams of thought, where the physical suffering
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  wasn't the main point, but the spiritual victory
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  was. So it's kind of interesting to me, because
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  that's kind of one of the things we talked about
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  on our last episode, that it's like, oh no, it
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  was about a spiritual victory. reclaiming borders,
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  and the way they explain it is he laughed while
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  he was on the cross. Yeah, like in a sense of
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  like, I laugh at the face of a danger. Ha ha
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  ha. What is that? Lion King? It is. I think that
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  is Lion King. It's when they're in the elephant
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  graveyard and somebody's like, I laugh in the
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  face of danger. You know, like the hyena. The
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  hyena start laughing. No king, no king, I always
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  go to that. That's interesting though because
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  there are pieces of that where it's like, okay,
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  I get how they could get to that point. I can
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  see where they would take a step and then keep
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  going. That's usually what the Gnostic gospels
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  or apocryphal texts are. They just went an extra
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  step. To be honest, I wonder sometimes if it's
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  like they are, I wonder if they are, people in
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  the second century who grew up and learned the
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  stories and saw all that stuff or were aware
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  of what was going on, but they were also taking
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  early or I guess middle range time period of
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  psychedelics and they were just like, let's write
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  our own gospels. Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, like
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  I feel like that that would make a lot of sense
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  that that actually would make a lot of sense
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  Especially on the mystic side of rave Judaism.
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  Yeah. Yeah Yeah, that's fascinating. It's for
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  me. What's funny about it is It's kind of like
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  if you've ever heard someone make a true statement
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  Yeah, but they used an out -of -context verse
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  to make it Yes, and it's like, okay what you
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  said is true, but not how you got there, right?
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  All right. It's like it's like a math problem.
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  So you got the answer, right? Yeah, but how you
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  got to the answer doesn't make any sense, right?
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  It's like it's like yeah, we should highlight
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  and that's what we that was kind of our point
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  Yeah in the last episode like yeah, we should
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  highlight Christ's victory over the spiritual
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  realm, right but not that way. Right. That's
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  not it. Yeah, and that's tough. And I feel like
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  we've done that through our episodes where maybe
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  we wanna say one thing, and then as we read the
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  text, as we go back to the Bible, it helps us
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  say something actually more profound than what
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  our intended point was. Yeah, absolutely. And
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  it helps us end up saying, oh wait, actually
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  words it like this, wait, that's even better
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  than I was gonna say. And it like rounds out
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  the point even more. And it's like, whoa. And
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  because there are times where in my head I soften
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  what the Bible actually said. It's like, oh,
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  it said it kind of like this, or it kind of eluded.
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  It's like, oh no, it was pretty blatant. And
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  then you read it like. Oh, I thought I came up
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  with that part. I thought that was a random thought
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  I had. That's good. No, it's not me. Knowledge
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  comes from somewhere. Yeah, it's true. Oops.
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  Uh -oh. That's interesting. So yeah, I thought
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  that was kind of a funny thing, especially because
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  I love trying to dive into early church history
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  and traditions. And it's like, yeah, where do
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  these things come from? Right. And it's funny
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  that it's like so especially before there is
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  really that unification in the early church,
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  right? There were people going off and kind of
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  like having their own fan fiction essentially
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  Yeah, I mean you have like the councils in like
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  200 300 then you get Augustine like 400 Yeah,
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  so it's like yeah, I mean in those early days
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  in second century It's it kind of wasn't diluted.
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  Mm -hmm, but to see like outskirts people just
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  be like Almost like fan fiction. Yeah, that's
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  almost what a apocryphal texts are just like
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  fan fiction on the Bible Yeah, like what if John
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  actually wrote this or like what if this is what
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  he experienced? Oh, you should check this out.
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  What if Barnaby or Thomas? Yeah, what if times
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  hated women? Yeah, and they're just writing these
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  funny things down. Yeah sending them to each
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  other It's early memes. Yeah, but it's like Christian
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  memes apocryphal texts. They were like they believed
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  that Yeah, what was it the gospel of Thomas?
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  It's like yeah, if Jesus actually said that all
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  women would become men Yeah, that's it in order
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  to enter the kingdom of God. Wouldn't that be
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  crazy? Like that'd be hilarious. No one would
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  believe that. Write that one down. Write it down.
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  That's good. That's good Oh, that was funny,
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  but that's weird. Yeah, it's kind of weird. I
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  like weird knowledge Yeah, and cuz for me what
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  it opens up is traditions and beliefs that we
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  have today. Right. It's like, OK, so where did
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  those actually come from? Sure. And are they
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  just based on a fan fiction? Oh, yeah. You know
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  what I mean? Yeah. And it's like, is it we say
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  like, oh, this is it now because we all believe
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  it for the most part. Yeah. The majority believe
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  it. That's the majority thought. Yes. But it's
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  like, is that just like Jesus left on the cross,
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  but enough people said, yeah, that happened?
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  It was probably just a couple guys with a pen
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  and paper. Yeah. That's kind of what I mean.
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  That probably is true. But you know what I mean.
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  But to this day, it's like we look at certain
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  ideas that we hold to. Right. And it's like,
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  is it just that one, but it took off? Or is it
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  actually based in real Bible truth? Sure. Yeah.
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  And the way you figure that out is, does this
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  show up anywhere else? Right. Absolutely. Is
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  this a principle? It's like, that's what the
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  councils did. Yeah. They went through and they
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  were like, all right, this one. this is some
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  random piece that doesn't actually, it's not
• 12:38
  part of what's going on here. So yeah, I think
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  that that is important. That's the whole wheat
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  with the chaff, kind of look at the larger context
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  and open that up and figure out what it actually
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  says. But yeah, that's a funny one. It's a fun
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  one. Yeah, it's also a little, makes me feel
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  weird. Well, it makes me wonder, How do you think
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  Jesus laughed? What do you think his laugh? Oh,
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  yeah. Well, if he's in that state. Yeah. Do you
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  think a lot of reverb? He's in the spiritual
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  realm. It's like a large hall verb. I feel like
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  that's probably like that assumption and that
• 13:22
  idea is probably sound moving through dimension.
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  Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like it
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  sounds like that because it's like across the
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  hall. Just weaving in and out. So to us, it's
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  like, oh, this booming voice with a bunch of
• 13:37
  reverb. Like Oz. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then when
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  Oz comes out, it's like, oh, hey, guys. Or what
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  if, because it's going in and out of these different
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  dimensions, it actually is just choppy. Oh, yeah.
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  Like, what is happening? What you don't know
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  is like some of some of the people down at the
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  foot of the cross actually heard it and they
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  were like They thought it was thunder Mary's
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  Mary's down. They're just weeping and is someone
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  laughing Is there a glitchy laugh? What? That's
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  weird. It is weird Yeah, but yeah, and that happened
• 14:19
  that's right. No Well, and that's where like
• 14:24
  the other thing with that is it's also what?
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  gives grounding and works for other people looking
• 14:30
  into historical language and writing and looking
• 14:33
  at like, all right, when was this written? And
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  if it was written at this time, then the understanding
• 14:40
  of certain pieces of the story actually weren't
• 14:44
  written down until later or like going into that
• 14:47
  when it comes to the gospels. Like I heard someone
• 14:48
  recently say that the gospels are accounts written
• 14:54
  down and the story of things like the virgin
• 14:58
  birth weren't added to the story until after
• 15:02
  they wrote the accounts of Jesus. Meaning it's
• 15:06
  the idea that if the apostles are, if the apostles
• 15:10
  are writing the synoptic gospels or they're dictating
• 15:13
  them, or they're telling them and then those
• 15:16
  are being translated and written down that they
• 15:18
  weren't there for the virgin birth. So what they're
• 15:20
  accounting for is something that they learned
• 15:22
  about later. I see. And so like bringing bringing
• 15:25
  the idea to like, well, maybe the virgin birth
• 15:28
  was made up then because of that. Oh, it's like
• 15:31
  we don't have that's pure speculation. Absolutely.
• 15:35
  But it's also pure speculation in the other sense
• 15:37
  where we weren't there either. Yeah. You just
• 15:40
  have to look at historical data and go, well,
• 15:41
  why do we believe anything at all? Right. You
• 15:44
  know what I mean? Yeah and that I mean that one
• 15:46
  that's a whole episode in and of itself actually
• 15:48
  because there's even like astrological signs
• 15:51
  that tell the same story. Oh. Which is really
• 15:54
  cool. So that that's the that's the episode that
• 15:57
  we need to have. Yes. Does is the story of creation
• 16:02
  written into creation that was plain for everybody
• 16:06
  to see before we couldn't see creation. Yeah.
• 16:10
  The way that they saw it. Yes, meaning pollution
• 16:13
  and like light pollution not like Like well,
• 16:16
  I guess if you're in it's it's called like la
• 16:18
  like it's just like smog or something That's
• 16:20
  fair But like all of the ways that like we can't
• 16:22
  really see the purity stuff that obstructs our
• 16:25
  view of the sky. Yeah and like therefore making
• 16:30
  that um and and the uh, The deception of worshiping
• 16:35
  the stars Yeah, causing christians to not even
• 16:38
  look at them in the first place. It's like well
• 16:41
  it's a deception, so then if it is, then it's
• 16:45
  imitating something or it's obscuring something
• 16:48
  that was actually meant to be helpful to us.
• 16:53
  So don't throw the whole thing out, move the
• 16:55
  deception aside and go back to the original.
• 16:58
  And then, so yeah, that's interesting. What's
• 17:04
  weird is it's not just like the spirit of Jesus,
• 17:08
  like his soul leaving his body. It's more so
• 17:12
  that there was a stunt double on the cross and
• 17:14
  that's kind of what they're saying. It's like
• 17:15
  which is weird which that one kind of then separates
• 17:19
  the What we call it the man god Oh, yeah, like
• 17:24
  hundred percent hundred percent. Oh, yeah, and
• 17:26
  it's like, oh no He was actually just kind of
• 17:27
  like using his body is what it sounds like the
• 17:30
  divinity of god So like yeah jesus's body was
• 17:34
  possessed by the Spirit of Jesus. Right. That's
• 17:38
  a weird thought. That's a weird idea. On that
• 17:41
  note, three, two, one. Exiles scattered on foreign
• 18:01
  ground Dreaming of Zion where hope is found Every
• 18:07
  prayer through the centuries cried Next year
• 18:11
  in Jerusalem never died Empires rose then cast
• 18:17
  away Still the covenant would never fade From
• 18:23
  pogroms night to broken walls Of people returning
• 18:28
  to ancient shores This is martyr's road Where
• 18:35
  the truth won't hide Faith collides With a turning
• 18:45
  tide Voices rise walking the line on martyr's
• 19:01
  row from Babylon's chains to Roman decree through
• 19:08
  endless trials of history out of the ashes nations
• 19:15
  grow but the story lives on martyr's row this
• 19:20
  is martyr's row Where the truth won't hide Faith
• 19:30
  collides with the turning tide Voices arise and
• 19:40
  the world will know We're walking a line on Marty's
• 19:51
  road This is Marty's road Oh hey! Back again.
• 20:20
  Back again. And it feels so good. Yeah, I don't
• 20:25
  know back back isn't back again like a boys thing
• 20:28
  boys boys band Backstreet ball Back again. Yeah,
• 20:35
  I Don't remember is that that song's called no
• 20:39
  clue But I want it to be okay. It can be it is
• 20:43
  now So we've been We've been talking about some
• 20:53
  like touchy stuff. I feel like hot topics some
• 20:56
  hot hot topics some topics to touch Hot to the
• 21:01
  touch They're still somewhat toasty Topics that
• 21:05
  are hot to the touch. Yeah, which is kind of
• 21:08
  fun It is fun because it just kind of happened
• 21:10
  naturally. Yeah as things do as We're all living
• 21:15
  on this earth together. And there's a bit of
• 21:18
  discovery, I think, for both of us in this podcast
• 21:21
  where the goal, at least my goal, and kind of
• 21:25
  what we've talked about all the way through is
• 21:26
  there are things that I want to learn more about.
• 21:29
  And so this is an opportunity to do that. So
• 21:32
  as we are discussing things and learning or thinking
• 21:35
  about things and having thoughts and like, hey,
• 21:37
  what about this? It's like, all right, let me
• 21:39
  research it. Let's talk about it. I think this
• 21:42
  about something, like we were talking about earlier.
• 21:46
  I had one view that I thought I had about things
• 21:51
  like the last couple episodes, like Israel lander
• 21:55
  people. I had an idea of what I thought, but
• 21:58
  I was like, but I don't really know how to articulate
• 22:00
  that. And I don't really know what my references
• 22:02
  are. I just feel like I'm moving more in this
• 22:05
  direction where I feel like I was being led in
• 22:07
  this direction. Yeah. And it's like, okay, which
• 22:10
  one is truth? Yeah, and that's kind of like it's
• 22:13
  parsing that out. It's like, okay So in a lot
• 22:15
  of ways like where did this idea even originate?
• 22:17
  Yes, and that's where a lot of things that's
• 22:20
  that's kind of how a lot of this started for
• 22:21
  me Just overall over the last years. Yeah, it's
• 22:25
  just like for the last years years I was gonna
• 22:27
  put a number to ask my whole life and I was like
• 22:29
  my whole life No, there was kind of a period
• 22:32
  where it started I can't remember when where
• 22:34
  it's just like zero wait Someone told me this
• 22:37
  but like where did that even come from? Yeah,
• 22:39
  where'd you get that idea from? And it's not
• 22:41
  even like, do I believe it or not? When you're
• 22:43
  a baby, your mom was like, you're a baby. I was
• 22:45
  like, where'd you get that idea? She's like,
• 22:48
  holy, holy. I was actually watching my baby body
• 22:53
  over. My baby body. Baby's back, all right. All
• 23:00
  right. She really wanted to trek through a serious.
• 23:04
  Coo -coo -ga -ma -ma -ma. She's like, what? But
• 23:13
  yeah, it's kind of like, oh wait, let's ask the
• 23:14
  question. You almost didn't let me in. No, I
• 23:16
  didn't. Paul was like, no, I'm gonna get this
• 23:21
  point across. No, I have to get this point across.
• 23:23
  No, no, I wanna talk about babies. Okay, it's
• 23:27
  like, here we are now. Now what? Now what do
• 23:31
  you do with babies? So now we gotta start this
• 23:32
  over. So now we're looking at babies. So ever
• 23:35
  since your whole life. So ever since my whole
• 23:38
  life when I was zero. a Goo Goo Gaga baby watching
• 23:43
  myself. People told you stuff and you're like,
• 23:47
  huh? Who are you? Are you like my mom or something?
• 23:51
  How'd you get in here? This is my room. No one
• 23:57
  allowed you in here. No, I don't remember saying
• 23:59
  commit. Read the sign on the door, lady. Where
• 24:04
  do you get off? No girls allowed. Now I'm hungry.
• 24:08
  No girls allowed. I'd like some burger. Okay,
• 24:12
  we're too far. As soon as you mention Wonder
• 24:15
  Bread. That's a problem. They're not sponsoring
• 24:17
  us. No. That's a problem. We're gonna bleep that
• 24:21
  out. Or we can advertise it right here. This
• 24:25
  podcast brought to you by Wonder Bread. I'm gonna
• 24:30
  pixelate it. Do the picture of the Wonder Bread.
• 24:35
  I'll stop saying it so you don't have to bleep
• 24:37
  it anymore. Wonder Bread. But put your face on
• 24:41
  the baby. That'd be great, actually. We should
• 24:46
  actually see if we can get a sponsor from Wonder
• 24:47
  Bread. That'd be awesome. Wonder Bread? Yeah,
• 24:49
  that'd be fantastic. That'd be amazing. They'd
• 24:51
  go the way of Cracker Barrel, and we don't understand
• 24:53
  what's going on. What happened? Talking about
• 24:55
  hot topics. Anyway, so it's that idea of like,
• 25:01
  OK, so let's question. And it's for me. It's
• 25:05
  let's start with not do I believe this or not?
• 25:07
  But it's just where did this idea even originate
• 25:08
  from? Yeah, and because there you can see it's
• 25:11
  like well is the idea does he even have merit
• 25:12
  after that right? So it's like if this originated
• 25:15
  from some guy thousands of years ago. He's like
• 25:18
  I think Jesus had a chuckle. You know what I
• 25:22
  mean? I was gonna tie it in, don't worry. I think
• 25:23
  he had a stunt double. I think it was two of
• 25:26
  them. But, you know, it's like, okay, is that
• 25:29
  where it came from? Well, why should I believe
• 25:30
  this guy? Right. Or is it like, okay, this is
• 25:32
  actually some ground information. Now let's look
• 25:35
  at the nuance of it and see where do I land on
• 25:37
  this. Yeah, because there's the discussion of
• 25:40
  science even, where people would be like, yeah,
• 25:42
  but. but how do you know anything? How do you
• 25:45
  believe that this is a scientific fact? Well,
• 25:47
  you didn't do the research, someone else did,
• 25:50
  and they wrote it down, and then it was peer
• 25:51
  -reviewed, and then a lot of people agreed on
• 25:53
  it, and it's like... That's how we have history.
• 25:56
  And that's also how we have historical myths.
• 26:00
  And then unwrapping the understanding of were
• 26:03
  these myths believed to be true. And then if
• 26:07
  they were, how many witnesses would say that
• 26:09
  they were true. It's the scientific method. So
• 26:13
  it's not like religion and science are completely
• 26:17
  different. No, it's following the process. Yeah,
• 26:19
  they're actually following the same. which is
• 26:23
  like, well, how many witnesses were there, right?
• 26:25
  And we understand that through, like, that's
• 26:27
  why, yeah, it's like, witness is such a big deal.
• 26:31
  Your testimony is a big deal. It matters a lot,
• 26:34
  it's true. And so, yes, we've been asking ourselves
• 26:37
  a lot of questions as we go through this, and
• 26:40
  especially going through this topic. And so,
• 26:44
  with that in mind, I have a question for you.
• 26:47
  Oh, boy. Oh boy. Oh boy. Stephen. Yes Paul? My
• 26:54
  brother in Christ. Are you a Zionist? For some
• 27:05
  reason that felt like a personal attack. Are
• 27:08
  you one of those? Quick thumbnail. Just do it
• 27:14
  in the middle of the episode. Who? What? Zionist?
• 27:18
  I'm not gonna find this. Who amissed? Am I a
• 27:24
  who amissed? Who did I miss? Zion missed. That
• 27:31
  actually sounds refreshing. Like all of our questions,
• 27:36
  it's fun to think we could just answer it and
• 27:38
  then end the episode. But where's the fun in
• 27:40
  that? And also it's not that easy, ever. That's
• 27:43
  true. This one, yeah. Yeah, I feel like I could
• 27:48
  answer it and then just like you figure out why
• 27:51
  and then we'll just the comments decide what
• 27:52
  they think Yeah Well, okay. So that is It's a
• 27:59
  loaded question because of multiple things. First
• 28:02
  of all, what is a Zionist? Yeah, what is what
• 28:06
  is Zion? And what do theists believe about it?
• 28:09
  And what is you? And you being that thing? What
• 28:15
  am I? Why am I here? Why am I anything? What
• 28:20
  even is a question? Is it the mark that makes
• 28:25
  it a question? Is it the syntax? Is it the mark
• 28:31
  that makes it a question? My words are, your
• 28:40
  philosophy has destroyed my language. That means
• 28:43
  it's worked. You dirty Zionist. Now you're using
• 28:50
  a derogatory way. I mean, you holy Zionist. Now
• 28:55
  they don't know what I believe. Yeah, so, okay,
• 29:00
  so a simple, clear definition of Zion. A Zionist?
• 29:04
  Maybe we just start with that. So like a clear,
• 29:07
  simple definition of a Zionist. A clear, simple
• 29:10
  definition. Frankly, the clearest! Oh, what an
• 29:14
  accent to use for that one. That one came out
• 29:17
  naturally. As one does. It was unintentional.
• 29:22
  But also subconsciously very intentional. Yeah,
• 29:25
  my subconscious is wild. Gotta have a talk with
• 29:29
  him. So a Zionist is someone who supports Jewish
• 29:37
  people going back and occupying their ancestral
• 29:42
  land. Did I say that word correctly? Ancestral?
• 29:46
  Ancestral? Ancestral? I think it's ancestral.
• 29:51
  What is ancestral? the land that their fathers,
• 29:58
  their forefathers once inhabited. So it's like,
• 30:03
  essentially, if you're a Zionist, you believe
• 30:06
  that Israel should live in Israel. Which is like,
• 30:12
  that fits. So Jewish people going back. and being
• 30:19
  able to occupy the land of Israel. That's what
• 30:21
  a Zionist is, is a Zionist is someone who wants
• 30:24
  them, wants Jewish people to be able to go back
• 30:27
  and occupy Israel. Okay, got it. Yeah, and there's
• 30:31
  like a bunch of different routes to go with that.
• 30:33
  And really, I think one of the things we've been
• 30:35
  talking about is, well, like it go back to the
• 30:38
  last episode where we basically talk about, well,
• 30:42
  in some ways we answer the question, what does
• 30:44
  Jesus think about that? Like, what does Jesus
• 30:46
  think about Zionists? Uh, we kind of answered
• 30:48
  that question. Yeah, we kind of did. Yeah, which
• 30:50
  is we didn't ask that question, but we answered
• 30:53
  it. Yeah. Um, yeah. And so I'm not going to say
• 30:56
  that now. You can go back and listen to the previous
• 30:58
  episode. Nice. Which is like, what did, what
• 31:04
  was the question? Like, what did Jesus even do
• 31:05
  here? Yeah. What did he even do here? What did
• 31:08
  he even do here? What are you even doing? Um,
• 31:10
  but so, so then you go, all right, back to your
• 31:14
  question. Where did this come from? Yeah. What
• 31:17
  is a Zionist? A Zionist is somebody who believes
• 31:20
  that Jewish people should be able to occupy or
• 31:23
  go back and occupy the land in which their ancestors
• 31:27
  once inhabited, the land of Israel. Because the
• 31:33
  thing is, it's like Jewish people are not Israelites,
• 31:36
  but those who live in Israel are Israelites.
• 31:39
  That's tricky, right? Because we don't say that
• 31:43
  Israelites would go back and occupy Israel. because
• 31:46
  a Jewish person doesn't identify as an Israelite.
• 31:49
  Which is a strange idea. Unless they live in
• 31:52
  Israel. Yeah. Which actually, I guess, isn't
• 31:54
  that strange, especially for us Americans? Sure.
• 31:58
  Because it's like, so based on heritage, it's
• 32:01
  like, well, I'm not an American. Like, because
• 32:04
  my heritage comes from somewhere, but because
• 32:06
  of this is where I was born, this is where I
• 32:08
  grew up, and this is where I live, it's like,
• 32:09
  well, I'm an American. Paul, are you saying you're
• 32:11
  not American? I am American. Yeah, I'm American.
• 32:17
  Yeah, I mean, it's where you live. Yeah. But
• 32:21
  you are where you live. Yes. But a Jewish person
• 32:27
  who lives in Pennsylvania doesn't identify as
• 32:32
  an Israelite. Right. Because they're Pennsylvanian.
• 32:36
  Yeah, that's right. And or American. Are you
• 32:43
  one of them Pennsylvanians or are you an American?
• 32:46
  I don't know what's going on in Pennsylvania.
• 32:48
  No one does. The origins of our country, right?
• 32:52
  Give me a break. Do it stand up now. Talking
• 32:56
  about people living in their land. So then the
• 33:02
  question of, all right, that's what a Zionist
• 33:04
  is. But then going back to your original thought
• 33:07
  and idea is like, well, where does that come
• 33:09
  from? Like, where do we even get the idea of
• 33:12
  Zionist? And what is Zion? Because we're talking
• 33:14
  about Israel, right? So if you, I think maybe
• 33:20
  the, how would I say? Oh, how do I say? I'd like
• 33:28
  to buy a vowel. Let me do this. I feel like there's
• 33:32
  a lot of places we can go with it, like historically
• 33:35
  go also from what happened outside of Christian's
• 33:41
  involvement in it. But I feel like the best thing
• 33:45
  in what I wanna do is just kinda jump to this
• 33:49
  psalm. and read this Psalm. And then kind of
• 33:53
  reset from there. Because I feel like there would
• 33:57
  be a natural way to eventually land on this Psalm,
• 33:59
  but I'd rather start with it. So Psalm 122 verse
• 34:04
  6, it says, pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
• 34:08
  May they be secure who love you. So that's like
• 34:15
  weird phrasing a little bit. But basically what
• 34:19
  it's saying is those people who pray for the
• 34:22
  peace of Jerusalem, they love Jerusalem and they
• 34:29
  will be secure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 34:35
  So the tricky thing with that is like, all right,
• 34:37
  well, that's a scripture passage that says we
• 34:40
  should pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Yeah.
• 34:42
  Okay. So Jerusalem is not a people. Right. It's
• 34:45
  a place. Person place thing. Yeah. Yeah. And
• 34:51
  also the Bible elsewhere says pray for your enemies.
• 34:55
  That doesn't mean Jerusalem is my enemy, but
• 34:58
  it goes on to say pray for all people. So it's
• 35:04
  one of those things where like pray for Jerusalem.
• 35:06
  Yes. But in the context of this passage, that's
• 35:12
  a pretty important and something that was instructed,
• 35:18
  because at the time of it being written, Jerusalem
• 35:21
  was also referring to a people. But you have,
• 35:27
  which we talked about in the previous two episodes,
• 35:29
  you have all of these timelines where they are
• 35:31
  there, like Jewish people are there, and then
• 35:34
  they're not. And then they are there, and then
• 35:36
  they're not. And currently, they are there. But
• 35:40
  also, it's the land of Palestine. So that's the
• 35:44
  tough thing is like, if you say Israelites are
• 35:48
  people who live in Israel, well that's only true
• 35:50
  to a small number of people because Palestinians
• 35:53
  who live in Israel would say they're Palestinian.
• 35:56
  They wouldn't call themselves Israelites. So
• 36:00
  even when you're in Israel, it's still kind of
• 36:05
  split in that way. But even then we don't use
• 36:09
  Israelites. the Jewish community and then the
• 36:14
  Palestinians. Right. So there's Jew and then
• 36:17
  Palestinians. So it's like, that's the differentiation.
• 36:21
  Yeah, which is actually kind of funny because
• 36:23
  of something you brought up as far as like the
• 36:25
  history of the land of Canaan. Yeah. And how
• 36:28
  it wasn't actually like a unified people. Right.
• 36:31
  But it was just a bunch of people that happen
• 36:32
  to live in Canaan. Yeah, as many tribes. And
• 36:34
  that's kind of what we're looking at now. That
• 36:36
  is what we're looking at. And so it's like, OK,
• 36:38
  so we have these two different groups that just
• 36:40
  happen to occupy the same land. Well, not just
• 36:42
  two groups. There's multiple. There are more
• 36:44
  groups. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because that's one
• 36:46
  of the things I think we forget about is there
• 36:48
  are Christians who live in Israel as well. And
• 36:53
  we're it's weird because we're saying Jewish
• 36:56
  people and we're not really referring to a faith.
• 37:01
  Yeah. But then we say Christians, we're referring
• 37:04
  to a faith. Yeah, that's fair. And then we say,
• 37:07
  but that's really just immigrant. So like Christian
• 37:10
  immigrants into the, but then there's, it's a
• 37:15
  complicated place. Yeah. Because everything is
• 37:19
  so spiritually charged. That's the difference.
• 37:22
  Where like a lot of other places, a lot of other
• 37:25
  places around the world, it's like, hey, we are
• 37:30
  Ukrainians and we want to keep Russians out.
• 37:33
  And so it's like, all right, well, that's pretty
• 37:35
  clear. It's like citizens of Ukraine wanna keep
• 37:38
  the Russians out of their physical land that
• 37:41
  they already live in. But in Israel, you actually
• 37:44
  have all of these different people groups, like
• 37:46
  you're saying, and some of them identify in completely
• 37:50
  different ways. So they're not all Israelites,
• 37:52
  they're Palestinians. Some of them... identify
• 37:55
  as Christians or Orthodox. So they identify not
• 37:59
  by their land, but by their religion. So it's
• 38:02
  like this weird neutral place where everything
• 38:05
  is more spiritually identified versus identity
• 38:10
  in the land itself. And it's interesting, maybe
• 38:15
  this is too far to take this right now, but it
• 38:18
  is also interesting to me that, well, I'll say
• 38:24
  it this way. for the context we're at looking
• 38:26
  at the psalm is this is pre -christ yes and so
• 38:31
  it's like okay so that means like boundaries
• 38:33
  are more significant than than they are today
• 38:36
  as far as in a spiritual sense oh yes which we've
• 38:40
  talked about on many episodes yeah because of
• 38:43
  the outpouring of the holy spirit yes right so
• 38:45
  it's like yeah at this point it's like yeah physical
• 38:47
  boundaries because they represented spiritual
• 38:50
  boundaries right that actually mattered a lot
• 38:52
  yes More than it does post Christ for sure. So
• 38:56
  I'll just say it that way for now Yeah, so there's
• 38:59
  there's a there's a simplicity to this in in
• 39:02
  the sense that like alright, so what is What
• 39:05
  is Zion? Well in in the Old Testament Zion is
• 39:12
  which I didn't even look up what Zion meant.
• 39:14
  I mean, I know I'm gonna have to just do that.
• 39:17
  That's right. It's like I've known I think it's
• 39:19
  like I know what it is. Yeah, but So Zion is
• 39:25
  the land of Israel. It's referring most specifically
• 39:30
  to Jerusalem, but Zion is the place that over
• 39:34
  and over again the Psalmists and different ones
• 39:37
  long to be in Zion. They go to Zion. So historically
• 39:44
  the Jewish people lived in the land of Israel.
• 39:48
  which previously was Canaan, right? And then
• 39:52
  after the Babylonian exile in the sixth century
• 39:55
  BC, and later in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem,
• 39:59
  which was in 70 AD, and then the Bar Kokba revolt
• 40:06
  in 132 to 135 AD, most Jews lived in the diaspora.
• 40:14
  So then you go, all right, you're introducing
• 40:16
  new phrasing. So diaspora is a dispersion. It's
• 40:20
  what it sounds like. It's basically an expelling
• 40:24
  of Jewish people from the land of Israel. So
• 40:27
  in the Babylonian exile, they were expelled from
• 40:30
  Jerusalem, they were expelled from Israel, and
• 40:33
  they were exiled in Babylon. And then in the
• 40:36
  Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, they
• 40:40
  were then dispersed. They were sent away. They
• 40:44
  moved all over the place. And then after the
• 40:47
  revolt in 132, um, it just continued that Israel
• 40:52
  was no longer, uh, occupying the land of Israel,
• 40:56
  but they were dispersed out across the earth.
• 40:59
  So you kind of see that in that. And then, and
• 41:01
  then a couple of episodes back, we went through
• 41:03
  the history of like who lived there when, and,
• 41:06
  and jumped through all of that stuff. But looking
• 41:08
  at the origins of it, um, One of the things that's
• 41:12
  kind of interesting is Zionism kind of, so Zionism,
• 41:20
  it comes out of this space that is specifically
• 41:25
  linked and uniquely linked to the diaspora. So
• 41:29
  as you, without covering the same ground that
• 41:33
  we covered in the last couple of episodes, as
• 41:35
  you, as you go through and you look at how they
• 41:39
  were dispersed early on through the exiles and
• 41:42
  then finally through the fall of the fall of
• 41:45
  Jerusalem in 70 AD there's this dispersion out
• 41:48
  and so they are living in the diaspora meaning
• 41:51
  there's this identity among Jewish people that
• 41:55
  they no longer have a land they don't have a
• 41:58
  land anymore so they're actively living in a
• 42:00
  diaspora yeah so this is an understanding that
• 42:03
  happens and then as immigrants do, they go into
• 42:07
  new lands and they establish and then they live
• 42:09
  there for multiple generations and they become
• 42:12
  wherever they live, right? Their faith doesn't
• 42:15
  change, but where their land identity is does
• 42:18
  change, right? And so all we're talking about
• 42:21
  right now is Jewish people dispersed. We're not
• 42:24
  talking about what we talked about in the last
• 42:27
  episode, which is what happened in the spiritual
• 42:30
  space and the relationship between Jewish people
• 42:34
  and that being their land anymore according to
• 42:38
  God. Yeah, or not like yeah, so So it's also
• 42:43
  interesting. I mean taking that so bring it to
• 42:44
  the physical side of it now Into the the natural
• 42:49
  it's like, okay, so I Mean which is what you
• 42:52
  said like it hasn't actually been their land
• 42:55
  for a long time up into that point, right? Yeah,
• 42:58
  so it's like before then it's like, okay, they
• 43:01
  They ruled it and then they were taken over.
• 43:05
  And then eventually, which is the time when we
• 43:07
  see with Jesus, like, okay, it's part of the
• 43:09
  Roman Empire now. Yeah. And so that's what, you
• 43:13
  know, we talked about this. That's where they're
• 43:15
  like, okay, Jesus is going to give it back to
• 43:17
  us. Right. And then we see the destruction of
• 43:20
  Jerusalem in 70 AD. And then we finally get to
• 43:22
  that. That's like, they're still like living
• 43:25
  in the land, even though it doesn't belong to
• 43:27
  them. Yes. And then now it's gone and now they
• 43:30
  have to flee. Yes. So that's kind of where we're
• 43:32
  at. Yes. OK. So Zion occurs over 150 times in
• 43:36
  the Bible. It essentially means fortification
• 43:39
  and has the idea of being raised up as a monument.
• 43:43
  Zion is described both as the city of David and
• 43:46
  the city of God. As the Bible progresses, the
• 43:48
  word Zion expands in scope and takes on an additional
• 43:51
  spiritual meeting. The first mention of Zion
• 43:54
  in the Bible is Second Samuel five seven. David
• 43:57
  captured the fortress of Zion, which is the city
• 43:59
  of David. Zion was originally an ancient Jebusite
• 44:03
  fortress in the city of Jerusalem. After David's
• 44:07
  conquest of the fortress, Jerusalem became a
• 44:10
  possession of Israel. The royal palace was built
• 44:13
  there and Zion slash Jerusalem became the seat
• 44:17
  of power in Israel's kingdom. So Zion is referring
• 44:23
  specifically to Jerusalem. To go up to Jerusalem.
• 44:29
  a couple of things to point out. The word Zion
• 44:33
  originates exactly where I just read. You get
• 44:37
  it in second Samuel. But what Zionism is now
• 44:41
  didn't actually pop into view and didn't actually
• 44:45
  push in until around the 19th, like the 19th
• 44:52
  century. It's like the 1800s. Yeah, so it's like.
• 44:56
  pretty new. And it moved across among multiple
• 45:04
  different people. So in the 1800s, nationalist
• 45:09
  movements spread across Europe. Jews often excluded
• 45:13
  from nation states began imagining a return to
• 45:16
  the ancestral homeland. So that goes back to
• 45:19
  what we were saying. So in the 1800s, it's like,
• 45:21
  they kept being isolated. So not only is there
• 45:26
  this diaspora, this dispersion of Jews, but over
• 45:30
  and over and over again, wherever the Jewish
• 45:32
  people were and whatever land that they were
• 45:35
  in, whatever place that they moved to, even though
• 45:38
  they had been there for a long time because they
• 45:41
  had been dispersed out of the land of Israel,
• 45:44
  they still were isolated from the nation state.
• 45:50
  So Jews in Europe, they were identified as Jews.
• 45:54
  And there was a lot of persecution against Jews
• 45:57
  throughout the centuries. So that's really one
• 46:03
  of the biggest tension points, is that even though
• 46:06
  Jewish people were sent out of their land, they
• 46:09
  weren't accepted in any other land. They were
• 46:12
  still viewed as nomads. And if you really look
• 46:15
  into it, Europe specifically, was a silo at some
• 46:23
  points for Jewish people. There's been other
• 46:25
  silos throughout wars and different things like
• 46:28
  that. But America has probably been one of the
• 46:32
  greatest silos for Jewish people. In fact, a
• 46:36
  lot of industry, a lot of large cities are built
• 46:39
  by Jewish people. But yet still, persecution.
• 46:45
  And I think that's where the tension and the
• 46:49
  uprising of this concept comes from, is the idea
• 46:52
  of a people without a land. So Zionism really
• 46:56
  comes from that concept, is that when they were
• 46:59
  dispersed out of Israel, they still were persecuted
• 47:03
  no matter what. Wherever they were, they were
• 47:06
  still left as outsiders, and they were an outside
• 47:10
  group. regardless of what nation state they lived
• 47:14
  in. So there's a few people. Early on, 18, there's
• 47:20
  a guy named Moses Hess who wrote Rome and Jerusalem,
• 47:23
  calling for a socialist Jewish homeland. Basically,
• 47:27
  what his proposition was is Jewish people needed
• 47:32
  to have their own land that they weren't gonna
• 47:35
  be persecuted in. they just needed to occupy
• 47:39
  a specific space that was socialist, meaning,
• 47:42
  you know, everybody partakes and everybody works
• 47:45
  together, which oddly enough sounds like a Christian
• 47:47
  church. Yeah. It's fair. So like, yeah. But that's
• 47:53
  the whole other thing. Yeah. And then there were
• 47:56
  a couple of rabbis who are religious leaders
• 47:59
  who called for Jewish settlement back in Israel.
• 48:03
  And then there's a guy named Leon Pinsker. who
• 48:07
  wrote auto emancipation, urging Jews to create
• 48:11
  their own state after pogroms in Russia. And
• 48:14
  we had kind of talked about that. It actually
• 48:16
  shows up in the song. Yeah, in the song. A pogrom,
• 48:22
  P -O -G -R -A -M -S, a pogrom, or oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 48:30
  P -O -G -R -O -M -S, a pogrom is specifically
• 48:35
  a massacre of a large group of people, specifically
• 48:39
  Jews in Russia and in Europe during a specific
• 48:42
  time. So as that was happening, there were people
• 48:46
  and writers that were urging Jews to create their
• 48:48
  own state because they were being so persecuted.
• 48:53
  But in a lot of this, in the 1800s, some people
• 48:57
  are saying go, like go have Israel, like go let
• 49:01
  that be your state. But it wasn't just that specific
• 49:05
  place. It was like they need to have their own
• 49:07
  silos. They need to have their own, because no
• 49:09
  matter where they are, they're persecuted. So
• 49:13
  then you get this, there's like the first, second,
• 49:18
  and third aliyah, which means ascent or to go
• 49:23
  up. And it's these stages that happen from the
• 49:26
  late 1800s. leading all the way into what would
• 49:31
  eventually be the modern state of Israel. So
• 49:35
  around 1880, thousands of Jews, mainly from Eastern
• 49:39
  Europe and Yemen, migrated to Ottoman Palestine.
• 49:43
  So remember we talked about that. So like in
• 49:45
  the 1800s, you had the Ottoman Empire still there.
• 49:49
  And the land of Palestine is basically, it's
• 49:55
  Ottoman Palestine. Like that was... the land
• 49:58
  occupation at the time. So Palestinians who currently
• 50:02
  live in Israel, a lot of them have actually lived
• 50:05
  there for hundreds of years. Now, are the Palestinians
• 50:08
  that live there, have they been there since it
• 50:11
  was the land of Canaan? Highly unlikely. Like
• 50:15
  maybe, but the land is not that big. And the
• 50:18
  distance between Ottoman Palestine, which ran
• 50:23
  for I think three to 500 years, something like
• 50:26
  that, like 1500 to, 1500s to like early 1900s.
• 50:33
  That land was, like those people are the descendants
• 50:37
  of the Palestinians that are currently in Israel.
• 50:40
  But pre that, there was a bunch of other people
• 50:43
  that ruled that land, and they weren't Palestinian.
• 50:46
  And that was like three to 4 ,000 years going
• 50:50
  back to the land of Canaan. That's an interesting
• 50:54
  concept, but during this, they established agricultural
• 51:00
  settlements with help from philanthropists like
• 51:04
  Baron Edmond de Rothschild. Have you heard that
• 51:09
  name before? I have. So Baron Edmond de Rothschild
• 51:14
  was a French member of the Rothschild banking
• 51:17
  family, a strong supporter of Jewish settlement
• 51:19
  in Palestine. His large donations lent significant
• 51:23
  support to the first Aliya, which helped lead
• 51:27
  to the establishment of the state of Israel,
• 51:30
  where he is simply known as the barren Rothschild
• 51:34
  or the noble donator. Dang. So like the modern
• 51:41
  Zionists and then the modern state of Israel
• 51:43
  owes a lot and holds the high esteem barren Rothschild.
• 51:48
  a member of the Rothschild banking family. And
• 51:52
  if that throws a flag for you, probably should.
• 51:56
  Look it up on your own. Leave us a comment. That's
• 51:58
  a different part of the show episode. That's
• 52:02
  from a segment we've only done once. What did
• 52:06
  we call that? Conspiracy Corner? Conspiracy Corner.
• 52:11
  Yeah. Had its own theme and everything. Oh yeah.
• 52:15
  This would be a good episode to bring that back.
• 52:18
  Um, but yeah, so, so you get that in the first
• 52:21
  aliyah and then, um, as it goes on the second
• 52:24
  aliyah, uh, influenced by socialism, uh, pioneers
• 52:29
  and created the kibbutz team. So we talked about
• 52:32
  this a little bit ago in the first episode and
• 52:34
  the last or two episodes ago, that was the name
• 52:37
  I couldn't figure out was David Ben -Gurion.
• 52:40
  Okay. Yeah. Which is like, like. David Ben -Gurion
• 52:44
  is like the guy who founded the modern state
• 52:47
  of Israel. So what they did was, and we talked
• 52:51
  about this a little bit with Abraham moving up
• 52:54
  into the region of Hebron and the Negev. And
• 52:59
  the Negev is like kind of the southern desert
• 53:02
  region of Israel. And what these guys did, like
• 53:06
  David Ben -Gurion and a large group of people,
• 53:11
  they created Kibbutzim. which is like, I've actually
• 53:16
  stayed in one, just south of Jerusalem in the
• 53:20
  desert there, but, because they still exist.
• 53:24
  They're nomadic tribes that have these massive,
• 53:28
  really intricate tents, and they create little
• 53:31
  cities in the desert. Oh, that's cool. And they
• 53:34
  do it out of these really intricate tents. They're
• 53:37
  really cool. That's cool. But basically, what
• 53:40
  he was leading, David Ben -Gurion, what he was
• 53:43
  leading is a move back into Jerusalem, almost
• 53:47
  like how we would say, or how we would talk about
• 53:51
  homesteading. So we would talk about homesteading
• 53:55
  and you go out to find your piece of land that
• 53:58
  nobody technically owns and you live there for
• 54:01
  long enough and it just becomes yours. So they're
• 54:05
  kind of doing this. Did they follow tradition?
• 54:08
  Israel and go to Egypt first? Well, they did
• 54:11
  come up from the south. Okay. Okay. So they came
• 54:15
  from the opposite end. I don't know exactly Egypt,
• 54:17
  but that's in the south. So it's within tradition.
• 54:21
  Somewhere down there. But yeah, so Ben -Gurion
• 54:24
  came up in that. And this is like 1904 to 1914.
• 54:28
  And then you have World War I and the Balfour
• 54:31
  Declaration, which expressed support for a national
• 54:35
  home for the Jewish people in Palestine. This
• 54:38
  is a British decree. So at this point, Britain
• 54:41
  is fighting with the Ottoman Empire. They're
• 54:46
  pushing into that Palestinian state and they're
• 54:51
  wanting a national home for the Jewish people
• 54:53
  in Palestine. Ottoman defeat led to British control
• 54:57
  of Palestine and the mandate system in 1920.
• 55:05
  So now you have the Ottoman Empire pushed out.
• 55:07
  fully, which the Ottoman Empire sounds like it
• 55:10
  was like a thousand years ago. I've been meaning
• 55:12
  to say it's like such a timeline shift in my
• 55:15
  head. I know. Because you think like, oh, that's
• 55:18
  like early AD. No, it's pretty recent. And it's
• 55:20
  like, no, that just happened. Yeah, it's like
• 55:23
  within, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty recent. Yeah.
• 55:25
  I mean, within a hundred years or so. Less. Yeah.
• 55:29
  Yeah, crazy. Yeah, so British takes control of
• 55:32
  Palestine around 1920. And then you get the third
• 55:35
  and the fourth, Aliyah. And these are immigration
• 55:38
  waves due to pogroms, which is the massacres
• 55:42
  of Jews, which the most famous one comes a little
• 55:46
  bit later than this. Economic hardship and rising
• 55:50
  anti -Semitism in Europe. Tensions grew with
• 55:53
  Arab population who opposed Jewish immigration.
• 55:56
  And then 1920s and 30s clashes and riots happen.
• 56:00
  And then the 1929, the Hebron massacre. So then
• 56:03
  you start to push into kind of the most famous
• 56:06
  thing, 1941 to 1945, which was World War II and
• 56:11
  the Nazi occupation of them trying to occupy
• 56:17
  the whole world. But identifying and specifically
• 56:22
  going after the Jewish people. and some six million
• 56:27
  Jews were massacred during that or murdered during
• 56:31
  that. And so this is kind of what you're getting
• 56:36
  from 1941 to 1945. The Zionist underground groups
• 56:40
  in Palestine fought both British restrictions
• 56:42
  on immigration and Arab resistance. So what you
• 56:47
  have is this World War II moment where there's
• 56:51
  six million Jewish people being killed and You
• 56:55
  have these kibbutzim in southern Israel and people
• 57:00
  are just trying to get into the British silo
• 57:03
  and trying to be helped and getting away from
• 57:07
  Germany and all of these massacres that are a
• 57:10
  continuation of things going on in Russia and
• 57:14
  further east, where they're just not welcome.
• 57:17
  They're just like, we don't want you here. But
• 57:20
  like, they're not saying here, as in like our
• 57:23
  land, they're saying like on earth, which is
• 57:25
  crazy. So crazy. So like being highly sympathetic
• 57:30
  to that. It's like, that's the tough thing when
• 57:31
  you talk about something like Zionism is like
• 57:34
  the truth is, is like Jewish people have been
• 57:37
  people without a land. And that's tough, but
• 57:41
  it's not because their land is Israel and they
• 57:47
  don't have that. It's because wherever they've
• 57:50
  lived, nobody wants them there. So it's more
• 57:55
  about that. And that's where you can be sympathetic
• 57:57
  to it. Yes, absolutely. Because it's like, okay,
• 57:59
  well, I don't want people to get, I don't want
• 58:02
  the Senate to be like, we need to get rid of
• 58:04
  all of them. No, yeah, exactly. It's like, okay,
• 58:06
  that's rough. Right. Yeah. So I'm gonna sidestep
• 58:10
  that a little bit. We'll talk about the Zionist
• 58:13
  Congress. Do you know about this? So there was
• 58:16
  a Zionist Congress, that happened, the first
• 58:20
  Zionist Congress was convened by Theodore Herzl.
• 58:24
  So Herzl's a big name when it comes to Zionists.
• 58:28
  I would say Herzl and then David Ben -Gurion
• 58:31
  are like the two main guys in different ways.
• 58:36
  And Herzl, this first Zionist Congress was in
• 58:40
  Basel, Switzerland in 1897. So in 1897, before
• 58:46
  World War I, you have this Congress and the purpose
• 58:50
  of it was to establish a political and organizational
• 58:53
  framework for the Zionist movement, which aimed
• 58:56
  at creating a legally recognized homeland for
• 58:59
  the Jewish people in Palestine. So that is the
• 59:02
  tough thing and a thing to be reminded of is
• 59:04
  like before Israel becomes Israel, the land that
• 59:10
  they're going into is actually Palestine. And
• 59:14
  that's like something to be reminded of. It's
• 59:16
  like, okay, well, before Israel comes in and
• 59:19
  makes the state of Israel in 1948, they are occupying,
• 59:25
  they're coming in to take over the land of Palestine.
• 59:29
  But the land of Palestine was part of the Ottoman
• 59:33
  Empire and has actually been, is now British
• 59:37
  occupied, but it's still the land of Palestine.
• 59:41
  it's like the land of Canaan again. It's this
• 59:45
  thing where it's like this is the land of Palestine.
• 59:47
  No one's calling it Israel. It's the land of
• 59:49
  Palestine. That's interesting. Yeah, so this
• 59:55
  Congress, it functioned much like a parliament
• 59:59
  for a world Jewry sympathetic to Zionism. Delegates
• 1:00:04
  were elected by Zionist groups across the world
• 1:00:07
  and came together to debate policies, elect leaders,
• 1:00:10
  and plan strategy. The key outcome was the adoption
• 1:00:13
  of the Basil Program, which stated, Zionism seeks
• 1:00:16
  to establish a home for the Jewish people in
• 1:00:19
  Palestine, secured under public law. So that
• 1:00:23
  was what came out of it. And one of the things
• 1:00:27
  that is said about Herzl is that Herzl kept seeing,
• 1:00:36
  he kept seeing the persecution of Jews. And he
• 1:00:40
  was like, we gotta do something about this. The
• 1:00:44
  Jewish people need to have. A place where they
• 1:00:48
  won't get persecuted. Yes, exactly. So the heart
• 1:00:51
  of Zionism is actually getting Jewish people
• 1:00:56
  a land, a homeland, where they can securely live.
• 1:01:01
  Where they. And this is this kind of interesting.
• 1:01:04
  So like in the in Israel at the moment, there's
• 1:01:08
  actually three zones. And right now they are
• 1:01:13
  location based, but they're scattered all throughout.
• 1:01:15
  And the three zones are basically they're basically
• 1:01:19
  this zone one is it's Jewish people live there
• 1:01:25
  and Jewish people are the security for it. So
• 1:01:29
  Jewish police or military. The second space Jewish
• 1:01:34
  people live there and they can move in and out
• 1:01:37
  restricted because it's Palestinian secured.
• 1:01:42
  And then the third level is Palestinian live
• 1:01:46
  there and it's Palestinian secured and Jewish
• 1:01:49
  people can't go. One of those places is Bethlehem.
• 1:01:54
  So if you go to like the gate of Bethlehem, which
• 1:01:57
  is not an ancient gate, it didn't have a gate.
• 1:02:01
  The gate around Bethlehem kind of looks like
• 1:02:03
  the Berlin Wall. It's like this concrete wall
• 1:02:07
  with fence around it and it's a military checkpoint.
• 1:02:11
  So to get into Bethlehem, you actually have to
• 1:02:14
  go to a military checkpoint and if you're Jewish,
• 1:02:17
  you have to get off. or you're just not gonna
• 1:02:20
  go. I say get off the bus. I don't want that
• 1:02:23
  to sound derogatory. But I literally went to
• 1:02:27
  Bethlehem and I was on a bus. And there was a
• 1:02:28
  bus and people had to get off. And our tour guide
• 1:02:30
  was Jewish. He had to get off and when we went
• 1:02:33
  into Bethlehem we picked up a Palestinian guide.
• 1:02:35
  Really? Yeah. So that's one of those spaces.
• 1:02:40
  I'm just curious, do they work for the same company
• 1:02:42
  and coordinate? I think they do coordinate, but
• 1:02:46
  it's not the same company. Because that would
• 1:02:49
  be that's kind of a fascinating thing in a lot
• 1:02:51
  a lot of the The tourist guides in Israel a lot
• 1:02:54
  of them like kind of like the guy we had he kind
• 1:02:56
  of owned his own business Oh, I see yeah, so
• 1:02:59
  he just he knew somebody across the border that
• 1:03:01
  he could Send them over to yeah, send us over
• 1:03:04
  to But yeah, yeah, that's really interesting.
• 1:03:07
  It's crazy Wow, and then you go in into that
• 1:03:11
  space and you're like, all right Well, there
• 1:03:12
  are Christians there. Yeah that are are not Palestinian
• 1:03:17
  and as far as nationality, a lot of them are
• 1:03:22
  immigrants from different places, like European
• 1:03:26
  immigrants or American immigrants or whoever
• 1:03:28
  are Christians there. And so at the moment, some
• 1:03:34
  of the things going on where there is military
• 1:03:38
  action from Israel into the Palestinian areas,
• 1:03:43
  one of the things that's tough about it is it
• 1:03:46
  is like it's not, it's everybody in that space.
• 1:03:52
  So the Jewish people and the Israel army is essentially
• 1:03:59
  wiping out and pushing against both Palestinians
• 1:04:04
  and immigrants that are there ignoring Christian
• 1:04:09
  sites and all of that stuff. So the Israel army
• 1:04:14
  is not necessarily considering the Christians
• 1:04:17
  who occupy those spaces. So that's one of the
• 1:04:20
  difficulties about this current world circumstance.
• 1:04:25
  Interesting. Because they're not linking up.
• 1:04:29
  But they don't really have a reason to. Because
• 1:04:33
  Jewish people don't believe what Christians believe.
• 1:04:38
  In fact, they have a massive opposition to what
• 1:04:41
  Christians believe. So that shouldn't be confusing
• 1:04:46
  to us. What is confusing to us, I think, and
• 1:04:50
  I don't wanna talk too much about this, but what
• 1:04:52
  is confusing to us, I think, is we have this
• 1:04:56
  misunderstanding, I'll say, that America is the
• 1:05:00
  Christian representation on the earth. Which,
• 1:05:05
  if anybody thinks that, globally, I hope they
• 1:05:11
  don't because there's a lot of stuff that America
• 1:05:13
  does that does not represent Christ well. The
• 1:05:18
  only thing I'll say on something like that, and
• 1:05:20
  I don't, like you said, I don't wanna talk about
• 1:05:21
  this really, but it's just like, I feel like
• 1:05:24
  a lot of those ideas is like, you just have to
• 1:05:26
  just go travel once. Oh yeah, exactly. Like that's
• 1:05:30
  really it. I feel like it's like, you should
• 1:05:31
  just go visit some place. Right. Yeah, so. Yeah,
• 1:05:37
  we jump away from that. Anyway, so back to this
• 1:05:40
  other landmine. But it does make the point of
• 1:05:45
  how could they do that if America is helping
• 1:05:49
  Israel and supporting these actions that they're
• 1:05:53
  taking against Palestinian people, but they're
• 1:05:55
  killing Christians. It's like they're trying
• 1:05:59
  to get rid of anybody that's in the land that
• 1:06:01
  they're in. Because they want it for themselves.
• 1:06:03
  Yeah, it's a military action. And it originated
• 1:06:08
  with Zionism. And so it's one of those things
• 1:06:12
  where it's like, you're kind of going like, yeah,
• 1:06:17
  so that's why we feel weird about this, where
• 1:06:21
  it's like, hey, they shouldn't be also killing
• 1:06:23
  Christians. Like they should be protecting them
• 1:06:26
  and only pushing the Palestinians out. And you're
• 1:06:29
  like, Okay, but why is that a problem? It's the
• 1:06:34
  way we view America, but it's also Zionism. Because
• 1:06:37
  the concept of Zionism that we just talked about
• 1:06:42
  is 1800s. But Zionism actually starts earlier
• 1:06:47
  than that. Zionism actually starts more in the
• 1:06:52
  Christian tradition. It starts there earlier
• 1:06:55
  than it does in the Jewish mind. Oh, I see. I
• 1:07:00
  see what you're saying, okay. There is a saying
• 1:07:04
  among Jewish people that happened after the diaspora
• 1:07:08
  and has for centuries, which is next year Jerusalem.
• 1:07:12
  The phrase next year Jerusalem. It's a prayer
• 1:07:15
  that Jewish people have that next year we'll
• 1:07:17
  be able to live back in Jerusalem. But Jerusalem
• 1:07:21
  is peace. Like Jerusalem means peace, like land
• 1:07:25
  of peace. It's that idea of like Next year, Jerusalem
• 1:07:30
  is also a state of mind. It's desiring to be
• 1:07:35
  and live in peace. And so, again, it's like land
• 1:07:40
  or being accepted in the space that you're in,
• 1:07:44
  being part of, not being a people without a home.
• 1:07:49
  You know what I mean? And using the word Jerusalem
• 1:07:52
  is like, yes, we would want to live in Zion,
• 1:07:54
  we want to be in Jerusalem, but also we just
• 1:07:57
  want to stop being persecuted. And it's like,
• 1:08:00
  yeah, someone needs to get these people a home.
• 1:08:04
  And it's like, I do understand that, but at the
• 1:08:07
  same time, yeah, basically, in England and America,
• 1:08:14
  Puritans in the 1600s began teaching that Jews
• 1:08:18
  will one day return to Palestine as part of biblical
• 1:08:22
  prophecy. And you get that from guys like Thomas
• 1:08:25
  Breitman and John Owen. And then in the 1700s,
• 1:08:30
  evangelicals influenced by literal readings of
• 1:08:33
  Old Testament prophecy emphasize a Jewish restoration
• 1:08:37
  as a prelude to Christ's second coming. So we're
• 1:08:41
  starting to, like, there's a lot tied up in the
• 1:08:44
  evangelical space with the concept of the rapture,
• 1:08:50
  millennialism, and the second coming of Christ.
• 1:08:57
  tied up in Zionism. Yes. And the simple explanation
• 1:09:03
  for that, like the reason why evangelicals who
• 1:09:07
  believe the doctrine of the rapture or have that
• 1:09:12
  eschatology is because there is a belief within
• 1:09:18
  that doctrine that there would be a temple at
• 1:09:26
  the time of the second coming. So what the Puritans
• 1:09:31
  and the early evangelicals, they were trying
• 1:09:33
  to, they were supporting the idea of Israel moving
• 1:09:37
  back into the land of Palestine so that they
• 1:09:39
  could rebuild the temple. And then bring on the
• 1:09:42
  second coming. Which would then spark the second
• 1:09:44
  coming. Because there would be sacrifices again
• 1:09:47
  in the temple as the prophecies of old. So I've
• 1:09:52
  heard that a lot. I think you've heard that a
• 1:09:54
  lot. I think that there's a third temple institute.
• 1:09:59
  And I think that there's this idea that sacrifices
• 1:10:02
  have to be being made in the temple for Jesus
• 1:10:07
  to return. And that's something where if I said,
• 1:10:11
  where is that in the Bible, I think almost everybody
• 1:10:15
  would be like, I don't know, I think that's just
• 1:10:18
  a concept that's in the Bible. And the fact is
• 1:10:22
  is like, that statement, there has to be a temple
• 1:10:27
  with sacrifices being made in order for Jesus
• 1:10:30
  to return again, that those things have to coincide
• 1:10:33
  with each other, is actually not plain. It's
• 1:10:37
  not there. It's not that the concept can't be
• 1:10:41
  found, it's that that statement is not there.
• 1:10:46
  So then where does that come from? Unpacking
• 1:10:50
  that and going back to the original question
• 1:10:52
  is like, let's unpack that. So what we're saying
• 1:10:56
  is that there has to be a new temple, which would
• 1:11:00
  be a third temple, and that temple would have
• 1:11:02
  to have active sacrifices for the sake of, to
• 1:11:07
  coincide with, that's a sign to us that Jesus
• 1:11:10
  is gonna return. And it's like, okay. Why do
• 1:11:15
  we think that? And breaking all of that down?
• 1:11:18
  That's not this episode. That's a whole episode
• 1:11:21
  in and of itself. It is a whole episode in and
• 1:11:22
  of itself. Yeah, that's not an easy question.
• 1:11:26
  I'm gonna tease that because I feel like we do
• 1:11:28
  need to go into that and that would be a conversation
• 1:11:31
  about rapture theology or eschatology. But the
• 1:11:36
  interesting thing about this is you don't really
• 1:11:41
  get Zionism coming from the Jewish community.
• 1:11:45
  until the 1800s. But in the 1600s, the Puritans
• 1:11:50
  start to talk about it. What happens right before
• 1:11:53
  the 1600s, Paul? The 1500s. And what happened
• 1:11:56
  in the 1500s? That was trying to buy myself time.
• 1:12:01
  What happened that was significant in the 1500s
• 1:12:03
  where the generation after in the 1600s all of
• 1:12:06
  a sudden start going, wait, I think that there
• 1:12:10
  needs to be a Jewish state because that's what...
• 1:12:13
  that's what we're reading in the Bible. Oh, and
• 1:12:17
  what version of the Bible are they reading? Oh
• 1:12:19
  yeah, the old King James. And why are they reading
• 1:12:23
  it? Because of what happened? Because there's
• 1:12:25
  a printing press here. Yes, yeah. And what happens
• 1:12:28
  in the 1500s? Uh, is that the Reformation? I
• 1:12:35
  was like, I'm pretty sure that's... I'm pretty
• 1:12:38
  sure that's what had happened. But I'm going
• 1:12:40
  through all of my dates and I'm like, wait, hold
• 1:12:42
  on. Let me not sound like a fool. Yeah. Okay,
• 1:12:46
  yeah. Yeah, so you get Martin Luther in the 95
• 1:12:49
  Theses. Yeah. So what happens is... Luther and
• 1:12:53
  the boys, they were there. Yeah, so what happens
• 1:12:56
  is the Protestant Church is born. It breaks off
• 1:12:59
  of the Catholic Church, which was not Luther's
• 1:13:01
  intent. Yeah. And then you get another guy, John
• 1:13:04
  Calvin over there, who's just over there writing
• 1:13:06
  about... plants and stuff again. And as that's
• 1:13:15
  happening, that generation continues and then
• 1:13:18
  the next generation is kind of the first generation
• 1:13:22
  again who's going back and they're reading the
• 1:13:27
  Bible on their own. Because for hundreds of years
• 1:13:31
  before that point, it was in Latin and they were
• 1:13:34
  reading the Vulgate. and only the priest was
• 1:13:37
  reading it. So they only read from the Latin
• 1:13:42
  version and no one has a Bible in their home
• 1:13:44
  reading it. So then what do you get is the 1600s,
• 1:13:48
  the Puritans, which was a holiness group that
• 1:13:52
  was devoted to reading the scriptures and then
• 1:13:54
  they had all kinds of other things that they
• 1:13:57
  were specific about. They start reading it and
• 1:14:01
  they start. they begin teaching that Jews will
• 1:14:03
  one day return to Palestine. So then you get
• 1:14:08
  this whole movement all the way through the 1700s
• 1:14:12
  evangelicals influenced by literal reading of
• 1:14:14
  Old Testament prophecy, emphasize a Jewish restoration
• 1:14:17
  as a prelude to Christ's second coming. So all
• 1:14:22
  of their texts, like when we talk about that,
• 1:14:24
  all of their texts that they're referencing are
• 1:14:26
  all Old Testament texts. The biggest one is Ezekiel
• 1:14:30
  40. through 48, those chapters are talking about
• 1:14:35
  the visions and the dreams that Ezekiel is having
• 1:14:39
  of the temple being rebuilt and all of that stuff.
• 1:14:44
  And what that looks like and the visions of that,
• 1:14:47
  that's all happening in Ezekiel. And that's a
• 1:14:49
  big part of the evangelical's influence on the
• 1:14:53
  literal reading of the Old Testament prophecy.
• 1:14:55
  Here's my, let me, again, this is not that episode.
• 1:15:00
  But let me just throw this in. Ezekiel's written
• 1:15:02
  before the second temple. Yes. I mean, that kind
• 1:15:08
  of answers the question. Okay, can we just go
• 1:15:11
  into it? So, because that's like pretty important.
• 1:15:17
  Ezekiel's having these visions and prophesying
• 1:15:20
  about the temple being rebuilt. Well, guess when
• 1:15:23
  he's doing it? He's doing it after the first
• 1:15:26
  temple was destroyed. And before the second temple
• 1:15:30
  was rebuilt. So guess what? It happened. It did
• 1:15:35
  get rebuilt. And it's crazy because as you go
• 1:15:39
  through, these things happen over and over again.
• 1:15:44
  Oops, we had to break. We decided to break in
• 1:15:47
  the middle of talking. It's one of our favorite
• 1:15:49
  things. So what you just experienced is talking
• 1:15:53
  and getting to a point where we're... about to
• 1:15:57
  get there and then all of a sudden we snap. So
• 1:15:59
  if you're just listening, you're like, wait,
• 1:16:01
  why did they just snap? Why is there a snap?
• 1:16:03
  Just like in the middle of their conversation.
• 1:16:05
  Just this little... All right. This is a new
• 1:16:08
  segment of our main segment. Back to... Which
• 1:16:11
  is the same segment. Back to programming. Back
• 1:16:14
  to your normal programming. So I think one of
• 1:16:19
  the things like... Like we will have to follow
• 1:16:22
  up on the episode and talk about like dispensationalism.
• 1:16:25
  Yeah. We'll have to talk about things like rapture
• 1:16:28
  eschatology. We'll have to talk about things
• 1:16:30
  like... Especially because all those things are
• 1:16:32
  so tightly wrapped up to this idea. They are.
• 1:16:34
  It's not like it's an independent thought. It's
• 1:16:37
  all related into other things. Yes. And the big
• 1:16:40
  one that we'll have to talk about is like replacement
• 1:16:41
  theology. Yeah. So I'll just drop in keywords
• 1:16:45
  in there as notes for ourselves later. So we've
• 1:16:51
  kind of jumped into, and we were just talking
• 1:16:53
  about basically the influence of the Evangelical
• 1:16:57
  Church after the Reformation that pushed into
• 1:17:03
  Zionism far before the Zionist Congress, before
• 1:17:09
  all of that. And when you get somebody like,
• 1:17:14
  what was the guy's name, the banker? Rothschild,
• 1:17:17
  the Baron? Yeah, so Baron Rothschild. I mean,
• 1:17:19
  he is Jewish. The Rothschilds are Jewish. So
• 1:17:23
  that's the thing is like, a lot of this, and
• 1:17:26
  I don't wanna jump too much into the evangelical
• 1:17:28
  space. I just wanna acknowledge it because that's
• 1:17:31
  really like, when we go back to the question
• 1:17:33
  of are you a Zionist, like as an American evangelical
• 1:17:37
  Christian who is, a descendant of Italians, like
• 1:17:43
  I'm not Jewish. So the question about being a
• 1:17:50
  Zionist, for me, it's either representing a political
• 1:17:56
  standpoint, which would then just be making a
• 1:18:00
  political stance with Jewish people in regard
• 1:18:06
  to the land of Israel currently. or I'm making
• 1:18:11
  a religious stance and allowing that to influence
• 1:18:15
  my political belief. And the religious stance
• 1:18:20
  really coming out of this specific evangelical
• 1:18:24
  movement. Because it's not, I keep saying evangelical
• 1:18:27
  because it started with the Puritans and then
• 1:18:29
  it moves into this evangelical space. It's not
• 1:18:32
  all Christianity. It didn't... It wasn't like
• 1:18:36
  this funnel where all of a sudden all Christian
• 1:18:38
  churches were like, oh, wait, we should send
• 1:18:42
  Jewish people back to Israel and help reestablish
• 1:18:46
  the third temple. Because here's the reality.
• 1:18:50
  We talked about this and it kind of surprised
• 1:18:52
  me because I had forgotten the date. But currently,
• 1:18:56
  what is believed to be the Temple Mount where
• 1:19:00
  Solomon's temple was and then the second temple
• 1:19:02
  was built on top of it. is the second holy site
• 1:19:07
  in Islam. And it's the Dome of the Rock. And
• 1:19:11
  the Dome of the Rock was built in 691. And that
• 1:19:16
  was the land of Palestine. And it was for a long
• 1:19:21
  time. So you're like, all right, well this land
• 1:19:24
  is Palestinian -owned, run for a long time. And
• 1:19:29
  then David Ben -Gurion, they all move in and
• 1:19:34
  eventually push up. And as they continue going,
• 1:19:39
  it moves from, now the British occupation of
• 1:19:44
  Palestine starts to create this opportunity for,
• 1:19:49
  as they champion, Israel or the Jewish people
• 1:19:54
  to be able to have a homeland in Israel again.
• 1:19:58
  So taking Jerusalem. If you go to Israel, if
• 1:20:02
  you go to the Negev, there's still like a little
• 1:20:07
  house that's like kind of, it talks about David
• 1:20:11
  McGurion and everything that they did there and
• 1:20:14
  how they lived there. And then they moved up
• 1:20:16
  from the South. I forget what the phrase is,
• 1:20:18
  but there was a phrase among them about like,
• 1:20:24
  it's actually very similar to like the South
• 1:20:27
  will rise again. Which is really funny. That's
• 1:20:30
  pretty funny actually. But it's something about
• 1:20:34
  coming up from the south. Which is a tradition
• 1:20:38
  in Hebrew culture. Coming up from the south.
• 1:20:44
  And we talked about that. It's this idea of they
• 1:20:48
  keep coming up from the south. Oddly enough...
• 1:20:52
  they came from the north and then passed through
• 1:20:55
  and then - Well, because they needed to come
• 1:20:57
  up from the south. Right. So they had to pass.
• 1:20:59
  Yeah, yeah. They had to do it. They had to follow
• 1:21:02
  it the right way, which is true. But OK, so then
• 1:21:06
  in 1948, you get the establishment of Israel
• 1:21:10
  as a nation state for the first time. And that
• 1:21:15
  was like, you know, not easy. So the UN Partition
• 1:21:23
  Plan in 1947 proposed dividing Palestine into
• 1:21:26
  Jewish and Arab states with Jerusalem internationalized.
• 1:21:32
  Jews accepted, Arabs rejected. David Begurion
• 1:21:36
  declared independence on May 14th, 1948. Arab
• 1:21:41
  -Israel war, 48 to 49, followed Israel survived,
• 1:21:46
  but 700 ,000 Palestinians fled. So then after
• 1:21:51
  1948, you get labor Zionism, led early Israel,
• 1:21:55
  building institutions, socialism, and kibbutzim.
• 1:22:00
  So at that point, you basically get this, the
• 1:22:05
  UN steps in in 1947, and is like, hey, why don't
• 1:22:09
  you guys share the land? And then David Ben -Gurion's
• 1:22:12
  like, nah. And then he and the army come up from
• 1:22:18
  the south. and they push out 700 ,000 Palestinians.
• 1:22:23
  So they misplace them. But the UN and the British,
• 1:22:27
  they want to make this a land like the land of
• 1:22:34
  Canaan. It's like, well, you guys can all occupy
• 1:22:37
  your own spaces. And then Jerusalem, Zion as
• 1:22:40
  the hub, that can be a neutral space. And that's
• 1:22:44
  where they were like, no, as Zionists, they're
• 1:22:47
  like, no, Zion is ours. Jerusalem is ours. So
• 1:22:51
  they go up and take that space. And that was
• 1:22:53
  1948. So 2025 comes around and you have a conflict
• 1:23:00
  again, over and over and over and over again.
• 1:23:04
  And really, I mean, the simple reason is it wasn't
• 1:23:07
  another empire that came in and wiped out all
• 1:23:11
  of Palestine. It was a group of Jewish zealots
• 1:23:19
  basically that went up and took back Zion. So
• 1:23:25
  in some ways they did the same thing that Judas
• 1:23:28
  Maccabee does. They go up in that tradition and
• 1:23:32
  they take back the temple. The problem is they
• 1:23:34
  didn't actually get the temple. Because that's
• 1:23:39
  the thing, there's the western wall. There's
• 1:23:42
  the Western Wall, and then on the other side
• 1:23:44
  of the Western Wall, which is why they worship
• 1:23:47
  at the Western Wall, is the actual Temple Mount,
• 1:23:50
  and the Dome of the Rock is on that. So then
• 1:23:53
  what the UN proposed as a split state is actually
• 1:23:58
  what they're currently living in. They just didn't
• 1:24:01
  want to agree to that. They wanted it to be on
• 1:24:04
  their own terms, and the goal for Israel now,
• 1:24:08
  modern day, is to take the whole land. And then
• 1:24:11
  the political question is, well, where does their
• 1:24:14
  boundary stop? When are they gonna push far enough
• 1:24:18
  to go, all right, now we're good. Now we actually
• 1:24:21
  occupy our land. That's a political statement.
• 1:24:24
  The spiritual statement is that Jewish people,
• 1:24:29
  as far as the Bible is concerned, and this is
• 1:24:33
  where future episodes, but as far as the Bible
• 1:24:36
  is concerned, like we talk about on the last
• 1:24:38
  episode, The reality is when the Spirit of God
• 1:24:41
  was poured out, the temple, the Holy of Holies
• 1:24:44
  where the Spirit of God dwells, it was torn apart.
• 1:24:48
  It wasn't destroyed first by man. It was actually
• 1:24:52
  ripped apart by the Spirit of God. So God said,
• 1:24:56
  hey, I don't dwell here anymore. I don't dwell
• 1:24:58
  in the temple anymore. Not because it had been
• 1:25:01
  desolated, but because the Spirit of God was
• 1:25:04
  now poured out on the earth. Was there something
• 1:25:05
  greater that came? Yes. The abomination of desolation,
• 1:25:11
  what Jesus mentioned and then what's talked about
• 1:25:14
  in Revelation, there is an event. Now, will that
• 1:25:19
  happen again? I'll say, I don't know. Maybe.
• 1:25:25
  But the events described in the Bible are equivalent
• 1:25:30
  to the events that happened in 70 AD. where there
• 1:25:34
  were sacrifices of humans in the temple of God,
• 1:25:39
  in 70 AD, and those sacrifices to other gods,
• 1:25:43
  and there was blood shed all over the temple
• 1:25:46
  and the altars defying the temple, and then there
• 1:25:50
  was a ruler sitting on the throne, or sitting
• 1:25:53
  on, I think the mercy seat, and declaring himself
• 1:25:56
  God. So that is actual historical events. that
• 1:26:03
  happened that parallel to the prophecy of scripture.
• 1:26:07
  So that, and again, going back to like, that's
• 1:26:11
  the whole thing of like, well, what about Ezekiel
• 1:26:15
  40 through 48, chapters 40 through 48? It's like,
• 1:26:18
  well, I have a hard time believing that that
• 1:26:20
  didn't already happen because he's talking about
• 1:26:23
  the rebuilding of the second temple and the second
• 1:26:27
  temple hadn't been built yet. It's like, I'm
• 1:26:31
  not sure how we jump to a third temple. Yeah.
• 1:26:36
  But. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think we may
• 1:26:40
  have like three or four more episodes on this.
• 1:26:42
  I think at least. Because some of these side
• 1:26:47
  episodes are going to be like three episodes
• 1:26:48
  in and of themselves. Yeah, because we do need
• 1:26:50
  to get into like, all right, let's break down
• 1:26:53
  the evangelical viewpoint of why, like, what
• 1:26:56
  is the third temple and like what does that.
• 1:26:59
  where is that in the scripture? Because again,
• 1:27:02
  it's that idea. Really the simple of it is that
• 1:27:07
  Christians support the idea of a third temple
• 1:27:10
  being built based on the concept that it will
• 1:27:13
  spark a global event that will cause Jesus to
• 1:27:18
  come back. And it's like, I don't know where
• 1:27:22
  that is in the scriptures. Like I didn't... Didn't
• 1:27:27
  read where there was a global event that was
• 1:27:30
  gonna happen. Yeah During a third temple being
• 1:27:33
  built Like we don't have prophecy from that in
• 1:27:37
  the New Testament, right? It's Old Testament
• 1:27:41
  prophecy. Yeah, which does get fulfilled in this
• 1:27:44
  building of the second temple. Mm -hmm So it's
• 1:27:47
  like do would I like Jewish people to have their
• 1:27:50
  own? Homeland that they're secure and that they're
• 1:27:52
  safe and that they can call their own sure one
• 1:27:54
  thousand percent Does it have to be Jerusalem?
• 1:27:58
  I don't think so. I mean, I'm kind of there with
• 1:28:03
  you in the... As far as a Christian standpoint
• 1:28:07
  goes. It's like, does it have to be there? I
• 1:28:09
  don't know. I'll say it that way. It's like,
• 1:28:11
  I don't know. But what I do know and what I do
• 1:28:13
  agree with is I think they should have a place
• 1:28:16
  where they don't have to wake up and be persecuted
• 1:28:18
  all day. 100%. It's like, if that's what Zionism
• 1:28:21
  is like, sure. Yeah. but they need to throw all
• 1:28:24
  this other stuff to it. It's like, oh, wait,
• 1:28:26
  hold on. Yeah. And that's the thing is like,
• 1:28:29
  and the reason why I say I don't think so is
• 1:28:31
  like, here's the thing. Should Irish people be
• 1:28:39
  able to live in Ireland? Yeah, it makes logical
• 1:28:43
  sense. That's not what we're saying. Does it
• 1:28:46
  make sense for Jewish people to live in Zion?
• 1:28:48
  Yeah, of course it makes sense. But also, Palestinians
• 1:28:53
  have lived there for hundreds of years. So it's
• 1:28:57
  not like they don't also deserve to live in Palestine.
• 1:29:01
  It's just one of those things where it's like,
• 1:29:02
  okay, but why do I feel that way? Well, because
• 1:29:05
  Israel, the land mass is a very special place.
• 1:29:09
  And to Christians who believe in the Bible and
• 1:29:12
  who don't throw out the Old Testament and see
• 1:29:14
  the New Testament as the answer. to the Old Testament,
• 1:29:18
  that it's the fulfillment of what was happening
• 1:29:20
  in the story. And it allows us, propels us forward
• 1:29:23
  so that the whole earth will be filled with the
• 1:29:27
  glory of God. Not just one region in the Middle
• 1:29:30
  East, but instead the whole earth will be filled
• 1:29:32
  with the glory of God. That as the mission, not
• 1:29:37
  focused on one landmass, but actually going out
• 1:29:41
  from that landmass and occupying the whole earth.
• 1:29:44
  If you're like, hey, should Christians have political
• 1:29:47
  occupation over the entire earth. I would be
• 1:29:50
  more in agreement with that than should Christians
• 1:29:55
  give physical military support to Jewish people
• 1:30:03
  killing off people in Israel in order for them
• 1:30:08
  to occupy that space. The thing is, is like,
• 1:30:12
  I can't agree with that. And the reason why I
• 1:30:15
  can't agree with it is the same reason why people
• 1:30:17
  are like, how could God be so cruel in the Old
• 1:30:19
  Testament to say, go into the land of Canaan
• 1:30:21
  and wipe out the whole thing? Here's the thing,
• 1:30:23
  he did say it. Did he say to do it now? I don't
• 1:30:27
  read it anywhere. That's where I'm like, okay,
• 1:30:30
  but this is the same thing as what God said to
• 1:30:32
  do in the Old Testament. Sure, but did he say
• 1:30:34
  it now? And I don't see that. I don't see it
• 1:30:38
  in God's word. And so that's where for me, I'm
• 1:30:41
  like, he said it then, And it happened. And it
• 1:30:45
  happened. Yeah. When did Jesus say that? He didn't.
• 1:30:50
  Yeah. So why would I lean into that? You know
• 1:30:55
  what I mean? Why would I lean into a massacre
• 1:30:59
  of a whole group of people? I mean, even touching
• 1:31:04
  on what we talked about last week is Jesus made
• 1:31:09
  a point to say, like, I'm not really here for
• 1:31:10
  the physical space. Right. Because if he was,
• 1:31:13
  then he would have disassembled the Roman Empire
• 1:31:17
  and given the physical land back. But he's like,
• 1:31:21
  no, actually I'm not doing that now. Right. And
• 1:31:24
  the fact is, he could have done that. Absolutely.
• 1:31:27
  That's the other thing. Because he had the support.
• 1:31:29
  It's not like, well, Jesus had to do this thing
• 1:31:33
  first so that he could do that thing. And you
• 1:31:37
  go, Jesus can do whatever he wants to do. Like
• 1:31:41
  well cuz you're the part of it and come in and
• 1:31:42
  take whatever he wants. Well, I mean the other
• 1:31:45
  side of that too is And this will probably set
• 1:31:47
  people off not like this whole episode hasn't
• 1:31:50
  This is gonna be the one thing But it's like
• 1:31:56
  yeah Jesus also didn't have to die I Mean in
• 1:32:01
  that he did but like did he as far as like he
• 1:32:05
  had to do that to Accomplish what he wanted to
• 1:32:07
  accomplish, but he did he have to do it? No,
• 1:32:09
  because they were sacrifices. If he just gave
• 1:32:12
  them back their physical land, they could live
• 1:32:15
  on like they did back when David was king of
• 1:32:18
  Israel. And they could have continued that. He
• 1:32:20
  could have just done that. But he didn't, because
• 1:32:22
  that's not what he wanted to do. That's kind
• 1:32:24
  of the point that I'm making here. Yeah, and
• 1:32:26
  that makes sense. My only pushback would be that
• 1:32:30
  they never fulfilled the law. They never did
• 1:32:32
  it right. Yeah. Oh, and that's why he had to
• 1:32:35
  do it. Right. And that's the other side of it.
• 1:32:37
  He did have to do it if he wants any of humanity
• 1:32:40
  to be saved, which we would argue that that's
• 1:32:45
  the whole reason for everything that happens
• 1:32:47
  that feels insane in the Old Testament is so
• 1:32:51
  that people are actually protected. What's crazy
• 1:32:55
  is we look at it from the other perspective.
• 1:32:57
  People look at it from the other perspective
• 1:32:58
  and go, well, why would he cause other people
• 1:33:01
  to die? It's like, well, If anyone's gonna live,
• 1:33:08
  some people have to be judged who are killing
• 1:33:11
  other people. So it's like at some point, either
• 1:33:15
  all of humanity is just gonna kill itself and
• 1:33:18
  no one is gonna receive salvation. or there's
• 1:33:21
  a separation here that happens. Well, I mean,
• 1:33:24
  and that's something we've talked about in the
• 1:33:25
  past. And I only feel safe saying it like that
• 1:33:27
  because of all the episodes that came before
• 1:33:29
  this. We've talked about the bloodlines, we've
• 1:33:31
  talked about the grace that God has given to
• 1:33:34
  all people. And so we have to look at all those
• 1:33:38
  things in light of who God is and what God has
• 1:33:40
  done. It's not just like, mm, there, get rid
• 1:33:44
  of them. look at our body of work. It's like,
• 1:33:49
  we've talked about these things, yeah. Yeah,
• 1:33:51
  so like, and maybe this is the easiest way to
• 1:33:56
  end it, is that, because this is gonna be many
• 1:33:59
  more episodes in different spaces, but I think
• 1:34:03
  my sentiment is, I think that the, I think that
• 1:34:11
  when I was in Israel, One of the things that
• 1:34:14
  I realized while I was there and I fully realized
• 1:34:18
  that I'm I like a Privileged person to have grown
• 1:34:25
  up in the places that I grew up. I'm not Jewish
• 1:34:28
  I'm all I'm saying is my experience of being
• 1:34:32
  physically in Israel. My thought was the most
• 1:34:36
  Christ -like thing that Israel could do or that
• 1:34:40
  the Jewish people could do is a hand back the
• 1:34:44
  land to Palestine. I had that thought when I
• 1:34:48
  was in the old city of Jerusalem that I thought,
• 1:34:51
  you know, what would it look like for the nation
• 1:34:56
  of Israel or the Jewish, the old nation of Israel
• 1:35:00
  or the modern Jewish people to turn towards Christ?
• 1:35:06
  I think it would look like laying down their
• 1:35:08
  life for their brother and giving themselves
• 1:35:12
  like giving over what is someone else's or was
• 1:35:19
  someone else's or maybe it is rightfully theirs
• 1:35:22
  as far as like land ownership and certificate
• 1:35:25
  of owning the land. I'm not talking about a spiritual
• 1:35:28
  decree. I'm literally just talking about like
• 1:35:30
  maybe the most Christ -like thing that the Jewish
• 1:35:33
  people living in Israel could do. And this was
• 1:35:36
  my thought when I was standing in the old city
• 1:35:39
  of Israel is if they just went, hey, you can
• 1:35:43
  have the land. Like what type of revolution would
• 1:35:48
  that create? Like what type of situation would
• 1:35:52
  that create on a global scale? You go, if all
• 1:35:55
  of a sudden the Jewish state says, you know what,
• 1:35:58
  Palestine, we're sorry. You can have all this
• 1:36:02
  land. We're gonna go move over to this place.
• 1:36:06
  You can have everything. We'll help you move
• 1:36:08
  in. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's interesting.
• 1:36:12
  Which is not gonna happen. But if it were like
• 1:36:19
  what the Christ -like move would be is to do
• 1:36:22
  that. So if we go like, am I a Zionist? I'm not
• 1:36:31
  a Zionist. Yeah. If this end of this conversation
• 1:36:37
  doesn't tip that off. But also, Zionist is different
• 1:36:43
  than being a person who prays for the salvation
• 1:36:46
  of Israel, of the Jewish people, praying for
• 1:36:49
  the salvation of all people on earth, praying
• 1:36:52
  for Jerusalem. And I would even say this, I think
• 1:36:56
  the Christian's decree of Psalm 122 shouldn't
• 1:37:02
  be, let's pray for Jerusalem, that Jews could
• 1:37:06
  live there and occupy and be safe in it. the
• 1:37:09
  decree or the prayer would be, let's pray for
• 1:37:12
  Jerusalem, which is a signet ring on the earth.
• 1:37:18
  It's this hotspot location that everybody has
• 1:37:22
  their eyes on. That something would happen in
• 1:37:25
  Jerusalem that would turn the hearts of the earth
• 1:37:27
  towards Jesus. That's how I would pray for Jerusalem.
• 1:37:32
  Is that something happens there that the Lord
• 1:37:34
  can use on a global scale for His glory. Not
• 1:37:39
  for the sake of Jewish people being able to live
• 1:37:43
  there and everybody else being killed off. But
• 1:37:48
  I wish everybody would have their own safe place
• 1:37:51
  to live. I think that I agree with that. So until
• 1:37:59
  next time, we'll talk more. Three, two, one.
• 1:38:20
  And the multitude fell upon him with blows and
• 1:38:23
  reproaches, that his