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Hamster Book Club - The Burning · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:05
Welcome back to the Hamster Book Club with me your host, Mr. Joe
0:10
Ford. And I am here today with two
0:12
spectacular, magnificent, charismatic, handsome gentlemen
0:19
who are, I think might both be on the market.
0:21
So check them out on social media folks and slide into their
0:24
DMS. It's Mr. Mark Dodik and Mr.
0:28
Chris. And how do you say it, Hogben?
0:30
Hogben. Yeah, okay.
0:32
Hello, gentlemen. Hello, Hello.
0:38
I'm going to jump straight in and ask Mark, who is a bit of a
0:43
hamster veteran, so he knows what he's doing here.
0:47
Mark, what was the 1st Doctor Who book you read and what kind
0:52
of what's been your sort of relationship with Doctor Who
0:54
books? Well, I've been trying to rack
0:56
my brains to think what my first book was.
1:00
It was probably a nonfiction one.
1:02
It was my very first introduction to Doctor Who books
1:04
because I have the House Stammers and Walker 60s book
1:09
which was. Well, I think the 1st Doctor Who
1:11
book I had on my shelf as a kid, and a lot of it went over my
1:15
head. I had it when I was about 5:00,
1:17
but I used to pull over that and look at all the telesnaps and
1:19
the pictures of these, the really evocative pictures of
1:22
these 60s stories like the Dialect master plan, and didn't
1:27
realize that they didn't actually exist to watch.
1:29
So years later, when it's sort of I finally put two and two
1:32
together and figured out that missing episodes actually meant
1:35
literally never going to see these, I am very, very sorely
1:38
disappointed. But then when it comes to
1:42
fiction, it would have been by going to my local library as a
1:45
kid, because they had most of the late 80s, mid to late 80s
1:52
releases of all the target books in hardback.
1:56
And I think one of the first ones I took out was The
1:59
Underwater Menace. Oh my God, by Nigel Robinson, I
2:03
believe, yes. Which I've gone back and
2:06
revisited, isn't it. It's it's a perfectly
2:09
serviceable target novelization, but it's probably not one of the
2:12
better ones. Has is that got the sequence
2:15
where Jamie slaps Polly around the face just to shut her up at
2:19
one point? Yes.
2:21
What were they thinking? And have the books been like a
2:27
big part of your journey or sort of a bit to the side?
2:32
Probably becoming more prominent now as I'm getting older because
2:34
when I was younger I was a very slow reader and didn't like
2:39
being told to read things, so I would just not pick up books,
2:43
you know? If it was a reference book, I'd
2:44
happily flick through it. But then I realized that, you
2:49
know, just when it comes to Doctor Who, there's there's no
2:51
end to my love for this series. So it's pretty.
2:53
Unconditional Hand me a book on Doctor Who and I'll probably
2:56
read it from cover to cover quite happily.
2:58
Anything else? If I'm not enjoying it, I'll
2:59
maybe give up on it, but never adopt a few.
3:02
I usually give a book like 3 chapters if I'm not, or come
3:06
like that. The trouble with doing this
3:07
thing is is random and I've got to read it all the way through.
3:10
Fortunately, all three have been pretty good so far, so.
3:13
Not so bad. Yeah, it's a bit of a blessing
3:15
when it's, but at least at least they've gone well so far.
3:17
They'll be a dud at some point, though.
3:20
What about you then, Chris? What was your sorry first of
3:23
all, welcome to Hamster. I know, I know, you're a regular
3:28
listener and certainly a contributor on social media, but
3:31
it is wonderful to have you here finally.
3:34
Thank you so much. I actually I've been really
3:36
looking forward to this and now my first Doctor Who booked.
3:41
I read it was at my school library and they had a copy of
3:45
The Web of Fear and I remember reading that, devouring it,
3:53
taking it back, taking it out again.
3:57
There was that wonderful bit by Terrence Dixon there where he
4:00
introduces, makes the, you know, the Doctor and Brigadiers moment
4:06
when they first meet each other something out of a romance
4:10
novel. You know, it's it's it's got
4:13
such big and you know, such big buildup of how important this
4:17
one scene is when when now we've actually seen the episode
4:21
itself. We know it was never really
4:24
designed to be that, but Terrence Dix captivated me, as
4:27
always. I'm making this into a pivotal
4:30
moment that I I just absolutely loved.
4:34
I've got to also be honest because I heard a couple of your
4:36
other book reviews. You know, occasionally some of
4:40
the Doctor Who fans have borrowed the books from their
4:44
library because I had read that book so many times.
4:51
And their copy of The Five Doctors, I think I might have
4:54
accidentally gotten to take it back once.
4:57
I feel, you know, all of this. I, you know, I borrowed it like
5:01
a type 40 TARDIS. It's that sort of, you know, I
5:06
was listening to your other contributors and they were like,
5:08
yeah, we borrowed that. And I feel, I feel like it's,
5:11
you know, it's confessional as well as you know, book with you
5:14
that we can, we can honestly admit that.
5:17
Occasionally. By the way, I did take the book
5:20
back eventually and they let me have it.
5:22
But that was, you know, I I still have guilt to this day
5:28
that I walked out with the the, the I think they had.
5:31
The three books they had were the The Web Planet, Sorry, The
5:35
Web Affair, Snake Dance and The Five Doctors.
5:41
And I might have borrowed all of them.
5:43
Might be an appropriate moment to mention I have.
5:46
In fact, this whole Hamster Book Club thing is a charade.
5:50
I have been brought in by British Library services to weed
5:54
out every Doctor Who fan. And it turns out there's quite a
5:58
few of us out. Jeez, the the fines they could
6:02
get out of all U.S. law. We could be funding the British
6:06
Library services for some. Time.
6:08
It might save a few libraries, So what about the books
6:13
themselves then? Do you?
6:15
Is it a big part of your Doctor Who experience?
6:18
It was a huge part of my Doctor Who experience.
6:21
I I don't know if anyone else is like this, but every town that
6:26
we turned up in, if there was a bookshop, my parents had to
6:29
stop, let me go in there to see if they had any of the target
6:34
novelizations that I didn't have.
6:36
What you know. WH Smiths, you know.
6:40
John Menzies, Any opportunity I had to go into a bookstore, the
6:46
first thing I'd be looking for is straight away was the target
6:49
novelizations. And even now when I go into a
6:52
Smith's, when there's not a lot of stuff in Smith's Eddie Ball
6:55
really, I still get that little flutter of excitement.
7:01
Hoping that I'll find, you know, it's like a key to your
7:04
childhood a little bit. The way that the books made me
7:07
feel. The smell of the book when you
7:08
open. The language that I learned
7:12
through Terence Dix and some of the other authors it you know,
7:15
you look back and you don't realize how lucky you were as a
7:18
Doctor Who fan to get excited by these books.
7:21
I know what you're saying because I was dragged into a
7:23
Waterstones today and on the shelf was that complete
7:28
collection in volume one and two of Terence Dix target novels.
7:32
It was volume to, and going into a bookshop and seeing a
7:35
terroristics book on the shelf gave me that same sort of thrill
7:40
that I had when I was about six years old.
7:43
I absolutely get it. What about?
7:45
So have you. We're going to be talking about
7:48
an Eighth Doctor book today. So Mark, have you explored them
7:53
at all, or is this completely fresh to you?
7:57
Doctor, Range, I have to confess, is the range of books
8:01
that I know the least about. When they were coming out when I
8:06
was a kid in the late 90s, I didn't get a lot of pocket money
8:11
and I understood that they were a continuing story.
8:14
Most of them were arcs and I couldn't commit to like 7 or 899
8:18
a month for. A new release that came out, so
8:23
I would I would look for standalone books and so I've got
8:26
more of the past Doctor adventure range.
8:29
But when it comes to the 8th Doctor, I think I've got about
8:31
three or four books and I've only read.
8:34
And the Burning, which I only bought for us for doing this, is
8:37
one of them. So I'm not very familiar with
8:40
the range at all. I think it's quite good though
8:42
that you've got a what? And I think it's amazing because
8:44
it means you're entirely fresh voice to this because I'm going
8:48
to ask Chris the same question in a second, but I think he's
8:51
read the law. I think the fact that you had
8:56
the past Doctor and the 8th Doctor means you're catering for
8:58
both audiences there, aren't you?
8:59
You've gone the the sort of individual stand alone stories
9:03
and you've got that sort of mid 90s arc based science fiction
9:08
that every that was growing ever popular.
9:11
What about you then, Chris? As you said, I I got back into
9:17
Doctor Who after the movie and I started off the 8th Doctor range
9:25
with the 8th, 8th Doctors. Which I loved and I was champion
9:32
in that one. Because it was just it was my I
9:37
read the new adventures and I don't know whether it was just
9:39
my reading likes cuz don't forget I was coming from a very,
9:45
you know, target books background.
9:48
I found a lot of the new adventures with them, more adult
9:53
themes. I loved a lot of the Benny
9:55
stuff. You know, I think happy endings
9:59
gave me. I remember bursting out laughing
10:03
at one particular passage in the Happy Endings.
10:07
But I and the vampire ones that you know that went with the past
10:12
ventures in the goth opera, which you know, I still think is
10:16
some of the best Doctor Who books that I've read.
10:20
But a lot of the other stuff, I just didn't feel it was, to me,
10:24
it was very talky. There wasn't a lot of
10:26
familiarity. I mean, there was even, you
10:29
know, a 6th Doctor novel that revolved around the cast of
10:33
prisoner cell blockage being redone as holograms in the
10:38
future. And you know, for me it was like
10:40
it that should have hit every with Grant Markham as Collins
10:44
and it just, it just didn't register with me and when.
10:48
The BBC book range came out after the movie.
10:52
It was like a bit of a breath of fresh air.
10:55
I coped with them, I understood them and I followed them
10:59
through. I was just starting sixth form
11:01
College in Farnborough at the time and I just remembered
11:05
getting those two, the first two books and just feeling it was
11:11
like coming home again. So I followed the 8th Doctor
11:14
range, I'll be honest. Towards the end I did start
11:18
going like I did read them, but I read them to get through them
11:22
rather than enjoying them like I had done at the beginning.
11:26
As I said, you know, the whole range about all the books are
11:28
great. When you look at them in
11:29
different periods of your life, there are sometimes you're ready
11:32
for certain types of books and there are other times you've got
11:36
to be a little bit older or read them back in retrospect, I
11:39
think. So it was for me, the 8th Doctor
11:43
novels have just been, you know? It's like coming home a little
11:47
bit and I read them one of the interesting things that one of
11:51
the many interesting things, so it also denigrate my guest last
11:53
week. One of the many interesting
11:54
things that came out last week's episode was that the new
11:58
adventures completely went off and did their own thing.
12:01
And like you said, they were quite brutal and they were quite
12:04
adult and they were quite long and quite worthy.
12:08
And it was almost like it is now, almost like a back alley to
12:12
a completely different type of Doctor Who that never stuck but
12:15
apps intriguing and experimental for what it was, the 8th Doctor
12:19
lied. Whilst it could be experimental,
12:23
it was shaped more like classic Doctor Who.
12:27
You know that there were asks going on, but they were telling
12:31
recognizable Doctor Who stories, just in quite a modern way.
12:35
I felt, well, swinging it around to the burning then Mark,
12:49
because this is a stepping on point or.
12:52
So essentially, I'm I'm sure you kind of know there's sort of two
12:57
halves to the 8th Doctor range, and the first half led out to
13:00
the massive war on Gallifrey, the Doctor destroying Gallifrey
13:04
in a very climactic moment and then as a result losing his
13:08
memory and ending up on the train in the 18th century, I
13:12
want to say, with no memory at all, which is where the burning
13:16
picks up. So how do you think this fares
13:19
then as a reboot for a range? Like like was this a good in?
13:27
More than I expected, yes. I went into it hesitantly
13:32
because of some of the stuff that you'd mentioned about it
13:36
when we messaged about it initially, but also the sort of.
13:42
What I understood of it. I knew it was a stepping on
13:44
point. But equally this is a Doctor
13:46
with no memory. So I'm thinking how I know.
13:48
I know familiar things or companions.
13:51
So my brain was racking. I was going through the things
13:54
in my head, trying to think who Doctor Ish.
13:57
Is the Doctor actually going to be?
13:58
Is there going to be anything to latch onto here?
14:00
If he doesn't have his memory, how familiar will he be to me?
14:05
But actually it's not. It wasn't as daunting as I
14:08
thought it might have been. He is still.
14:10
Very firmly Doctorish throughout some sort of dubious morals and
14:17
different things going on there, but it didn't seem so alien or
14:25
unusual to me for the Doctor to behave in some of the ways he
14:28
doesn't mess. He's very much echoes the sort
14:31
of early Tom Baker Pyramids of Mars period Doctor, in his
14:36
behavior in his. Is alienness and attachment to
14:41
the people in the story. So it was a it was probably a
14:44
better end to the Dr. range that I than I ever anticipated to do
14:48
to me. Think if we'd have done the
14:49
Ancestor Cell, which came immediately before this and
14:51
featured, you know, every arc plot that had been taking place
14:55
in the range today, Culminating you'd have been like, Oh my God,
14:59
this is exhausting, you know? What is this you say, about
15:04
Pyramids of Mars? Yeah, because there are a couple
15:06
of scenes, isn't it, where people die and he just goes, Oh
15:09
well, you know, come on, we got, we got things to do.
15:11
I just shrugs it off and carries on it.
15:13
So it's quite, yeah. Not it's a I say to the doctor,
15:18
you don't see a lot, but not one that we're unfamiliar with.
15:22
What do you think now, Chris? Do you think this was a wise
15:24
move then, to ditch everything we kind of know about Doctor Who
15:29
and start again? The, you know, the whole concept
15:33
of the show has always been that renewal thing.
15:36
And to tell new and different exciting stories in some form.
15:42
And I think this was an incredible, it was a brave
15:46
choice to make because you know it is something that is
15:50
completely different and it was this sort of whole period, you
15:54
know these six stories. It would have been a fantastic
15:57
TV series. You just the the way that you've
16:01
got a Doctor. No TARDIS, no Sonic screwdriver.
16:05
No familiar companion. In fact, there is nothing really
16:10
that ties you in to the rest of the Doctor Who community apart
16:13
from there is a character called the Doctor in it and he is, you
16:19
know, it's him that sort of starts everything moving around
16:23
and he, you know, he's turned up in a mysterious life.
16:25
But it could be any mysterious stranger.
16:27
It it, it's clever. It's so, so, so clever how they
16:30
do it. What did you think about the way
16:33
they kept it was so clever in the first couple of chapters
16:37
that he kept introducing A mysterious character.
16:41
So I think automatically we're waiting for the Doctor to
16:43
arrive. So when the vicar turns up and
16:46
it takes a while for him to be introduced, and when Nape, half
16:49
the villain, turns up, it takes a while for him to be named.
16:52
And then there's a few people at the dinner table.
16:56
Chapter 5. It's chapter 5 of this book
16:59
after all of these. Missed these people and you
17:03
think oh here he comes and you know you stop And it was so it
17:08
was like a reverse Agatha Christie you know who's going to
17:11
be the one who's doing it. But you're just you're
17:14
constantly given red herrings, and I love Doctor Who when it or
17:19
any. Show that sort of fools me.
17:21
And I'm like, I can't believe I fell for that again.
17:24
And he does it. It's like every chapter.
17:27
He kind of does it to you as well.
17:28
Who done it is It is. Who is it?
17:32
It's so clever because they're all talking around the table and
17:36
then the Doctor just has a line and then they all.
17:39
So he's not even introduced, he's not described.
17:41
He has a line of dialogue and then they all just start talking
17:44
to him and you're aware there's somebody else in the room.
17:48
It's yeah, Justin Richards is just plays this.
17:51
It just is an absolute tease throughout that.
17:54
It's just such a cleverly planned and plotted way of
17:57
introducing the Doctor. So no grand entrance or anything
18:02
unless you know it's slate clean.
18:06
Suddenly he's there, he's in the room.
18:07
It's as if you can kind of picture it as if, you know,
18:11
maybe there's a perception filter over the doctor or
18:12
something and suddenly they're all this now.
18:17
You're the whole thing and the fact he slips in and they all
18:20
just assume he's with one of them.
18:22
Yeah, they all just run with it. It's great.
18:28
So what do you think then about, because he is reinterpreted
18:31
here, like they've got rid of that sort of tiggerish 8th
18:35
Doctor from the TV movie that was in the first half of the run
18:38
of the books. And they brought in someone
18:40
who's a bit more mysterious and a bit more unpredictable and a
18:43
bit more violent as well. We'll get to the Fireax later.
18:47
Like, do you mind? Because I'm sort of pointing at
18:49
Capaldi and Colin Baker as well. Do you mind a slightly less
18:55
likeable Dr. For me, I I I really do.
19:03
I think sometimes it's, you know, the 1st Doctor was never
19:09
there really to make friends. He was there to investigate and
19:13
he would move on to the next story.
19:15
But he wasn't worried that if after he left somewhere they
19:18
were going to, you know, I wish he would come back quickly.
19:21
There was none of that. And when it was.
19:28
Per we again, I don't think could be, you know, he could be
19:31
likable. He tolerated the people around
19:34
him. But basically he was quite
19:37
abrupt and dismissive of most people, apart from really his
19:41
companions Tom for the first few series with the it's not a case
19:46
of just a few doctors that have been a bit like this, it's the
19:50
majority of them, but they do use different aspects of
19:54
themselves. So when you see him doing this,
19:56
it makes him more alien and aloof that wanderer and he
20:01
doesn't know how to behave with this group of humans.
20:05
He doesn't know those social norms that he's had previously.
20:09
So he's behaving in a way that he thinks is acceptable because
20:14
there's no one there now to say, hey doctor, you know, calm down
20:19
a bit. I say, yeah, you, you, you went
20:22
to my house on the cover of darkness, he goes.
20:24
Well, yeah, of course I did. In front of the vicar.
20:26
The figures like you. What?
20:29
You're admitting that? It's almost as if the default
20:32
mode for the doctor, the template is.
20:34
This side of him, that's where he always most doctors tend to
20:39
start off. Each incarnation has this darker
20:42
side. Mccoy's probably the only one
20:45
who started softer and ended up darker, whereas all the others
20:50
pretty much harsher and end their tenure softer.
20:53
So it's it's perhaps you know that the because the doctors had
20:57
so much of his memory lost of preceding events, this is just
21:01
his low level. Entity.
21:05
An identity that is the character default of the 8th
21:09
Doctor. I was thinking this how many
21:11
times can one person lose all their memories?
21:15
I know right from the first novel he turns up in the 8th
21:20
doctor and he had to find connect all the dots to get his
21:23
parcels. You know, in Big Finish, God,
21:26
they put him through the ringer and he forgets everything.
21:29
In Hell, yeah. And then there's a novel towards
21:32
the end called Half Life where he loses his memory again, the
21:36
memories he's had since the last time he's lost his memory.
21:39
Now you can say on the back of the bloody book, to lose your
21:41
memories once could be considered a misfortune to lose
21:44
them twice. You're doing something wrong.
21:47
But didn't you think as well like the way the characters, the
21:50
very likable guest characters that are in this except him?
21:54
And like being around him that it did make it.
21:58
He was still likeable. I didn't think he was, you know.
22:01
I didn't not enjoy spending time with him.
22:03
Yeah it wasn't. I don't think he was being too
22:05
disagreeable or or so nasty that you would you know, he's not
22:09
being Capaldi mean or Baker throttlings, anything like that,
22:14
so and I think. He is immediately engaged in the
22:18
situation in the wider plot. He's latched onto it very
22:21
quickly and there's already a mystery of it.
22:23
And you've got characters like Gaddis and dogs who are curious
22:27
about what's going on. So the fact the doctor arrives
22:29
and immediately wants to get to the bottom of what's going on,
22:32
they're like, really, here's somebody else who's going to
22:34
come along with us. So I think he's invited along,
22:38
essentially. And then?
22:39
Gradually takes the lead and goes, well, I know what's
22:41
happening and takes it from there.
22:43
So he's he goes, he's a driving force and pulls these people
22:47
together and until they die. As well.
22:55
It's a nasty book, this, isn't it?
22:57
Yeah, quite brutal. And I I always thought, I
22:59
thought like the linchpin of the doctor in this was his scenes
23:02
with Is it Naypath? Is how you say it naypath.
23:08
Where they have to come along. He's taking control of the the
23:11
manner. He's taking control of the town.
23:13
And then this irritating little man keeps coming in, taking the
23:17
piss out of him, telling him he's got brick and brac instead
23:20
of, you know, vital artifacts and just niggles him every
23:24
possible way he can. And he tries to kill him off and
23:27
he still keeps coming back. And that.
23:29
That's the Doctor I like, The one who really gets under the
23:32
villain's skin. He, he becomes droopy, you know,
23:36
in those old cartoons where, you know, the village just keeps on
23:39
doing everything and throwing it back, and he just turns up and
23:42
he's still there. He's made it.
23:43
Back Why won't you die? Okay.
23:49
So what should we say? It's a win for the 8th Doctor
23:52
then? That they've managed to sort of
23:55
reformat the character successfully.
23:57
Like, where did you figure? He was off to at the end of
24:00
this. Is it like highway to heaven?
24:02
Is he going to go to another town and sort out their
24:05
problems? Where do you, because you've not
24:07
read these mark, where do you think he's heading next?
24:09
Yeah, it's a bit like you say it don't feel like he was just
24:12
going to ride off into the sunset and who knows?
24:16
I mean, it's it's left open enough and a bleak enough that
24:19
you don't know exactly what's going to happen next.
24:21
There's a hint of a mystery. There's the idea that he's got
24:25
to go and meet and. Or what's the Yeah, fits in what
24:31
year in 2010 or something. That's the date specified. 2001.
24:37
Yeah, and they can't find them if that's one minute past eight
24:41
or the year 2001. And because the Doctor's lost
24:45
his memory, he's not too sure himself.
24:49
So who knows where it could go from here.
24:51
It's it's kept open enough that it's quite intriguing.
24:56
I think ultimately this is a traditional sort of Doctor Who
25:01
gothic horror in the sort of the Hinchcliffe tradition because
25:06
it's it's got your nasties, it's got your villain that would
25:09
probably be played by some fabulous 70s guest actor and and
25:15
it's got a high body count as well.
25:17
So let's talk about the supporting characters then.
25:21
Who's your favorite and whose death hit you the most?
25:25
Mark? Dobbs.
25:28
Dobbs. Dobbs, I was gutted when he
25:30
died, that was. I literally whimpered.
25:33
I was getting to the end of that chapter, thinking the Doctor's
25:36
gonna do something to save him, but the Doctor turns his back on
25:38
him. Yeah.
25:43
And he's going, isn't he? Don't leave me, please don't
25:46
leave. Me.
25:46
He's pleading for the Doctor to save him.
25:49
He's gone in trust and in the, you know, he's had faith in the
25:52
Doctor and that he'll help him get to the bottom of whatever's
25:55
going on here. He leaves him to his fate.
25:58
It's horrendous. Her dogs.
26:00
I'm getting goosebumps thinking about her fate.
26:03
We've already had that sequence, haven't we, Where the pair of
26:05
them were in the manner and they were attacked and they both got
26:08
away Scott free. So I figured, well, they're both
26:11
going to get away from this horrible cave with these fire
26:15
creatures coming out of the wall.
26:16
And then I was just like, well, I'm just going to leave the book
26:19
there for a little while. And just what about you, Chris?
26:27
Again, it was Jobs. I I think a lot of the, you
26:31
know, the people in this book it's I just remembered last time
26:36
I read it don't film any attachments.
26:38
Just try and be just just try and don't go on Marley and
26:42
Marley and me. You know, it's just nothing.
26:45
I've got to say. I'm the Reverend Stoppard.
26:46
I thought was he you know he was the most interesting character
26:51
because it's the way all of this is happening and let's be honest
26:56
he is having an awful time. He's not that, that.
26:58
That's not his daughter. It's Betty isn't it?
27:03
His daughter you know he's having to put up with.
27:08
He was already sounded like he was a man on the brink at the
27:10
beginning and suddenly everything his faith was
27:13
questioned, the community who he cares about is thrown up.
27:20
Everything that he knows is just hanging by his fingertips and it
27:27
must have, you know, sorry, it must have been terrible for I
27:30
feel like he's a real person. I'm.
27:32
About how did he cope afterwards?
27:36
But yeah, all his beliefs and everything, everything's
27:39
challenged in this. He's surrounded by people,
27:41
everyone else. You know, you've got Professor
27:42
Dobbs. They're all academics.
27:44
They're all businessmen and magnates and army, You know,
27:49
they're all in the military. And he's this one man of faith,
27:53
and he's suddenly his whole, his whole life and his whole.
27:57
Understanding of the world is rocked by this.
28:00
And what happens to Betty and everybody, you know, everybody's
28:03
just dying around him. And it's he, he has the harshest
28:08
of, you know, everybody else gets or you know, they die, but
28:10
they get off lately. It's one of those ones where I'm
28:13
really glad it's a book because, you know, the poor actress
28:16
playing Betty who obviously gets that trinket and that's when she
28:19
dies. So she's got kind of under
28:21
control from that point on. You'd have this poor actress
28:23
having to be like, yeah, oh, it's very pretty, thank you, in
28:26
some monotonous voice. And you'd be screaming at the
28:29
telly. Why can no one see she's the
28:31
test you? Know, I think it was so vividly
28:34
told that you could picture that so clearly it was like you see
28:38
it's got that Hinchcliff Holmes vibe about it.
28:41
It's very vividly told and. Written that I could picture so
28:46
much of this clearly in my mind's eye and I could see the
28:50
the the dinner table. You talk around things.
28:52
I could see, you know, there's always the comments about the
28:54
fire in the background. I can imagine lots of shots at
28:57
the fireplace and things like that.
29:01
Like that, Yeah. So it's it was a it's really
29:04
greatly told. I'm I'm sort of just Richards
29:08
have not read a lot of this stuff.
29:10
Finished Theater of War, which is his first novel, and I can
29:14
see how his he develops as an author, and there's similarities
29:20
between the two books. What he does in Theater of War
29:24
is good. What he does with the Burning is
29:26
brilliant. So he's, you know, it's quite
29:28
interesting having read two of his books back-to-back.
29:32
In quick succession. It likes a bit of gore.
29:34
That's something that we get. Well, yeah.
29:36
What do you think about that Chris because this is pretty
29:38
grisly in places. I'm I'm a big hinge Cliff Who
29:43
fan. It's my favorite error of Tom
29:46
and that's I think with the the Vhs's that came out it's sort of
29:50
like my default. This is how I expect who to be.
29:54
And I'm a big Hammer horror film and so, so basically it was this
30:00
book is so it's hitting just so many sweet spots for me and what
30:05
I also love. It's not a predictable ending.
30:09
It's more sort of everything. So you know, the way it's
30:14
structured, you can't say from the first three chapters, oh, I
30:17
knew how the book was going to end because the doctor probably,
30:21
if he was in this pool, you'd have mental health might have
30:24
been able to solve this quite quickly.
30:26
There may have been less deaths around, but he's not that man at
30:29
the moment. You know, everyone of your
30:31
safety Nets is thrown out. And to be honest, I know we knew
30:36
the books were going to continue, but we didn't know how
30:39
the Doctor would survive. He could spend 90 years in a
30:41
coma. You don't know, you know.
30:44
And and especially with the amount of death, every time you
30:47
think, oh, they're getting on, oh, he'd make a fantastic
30:50
companion. You know, this is where they all
30:52
these two should have their own spinoff dead.
30:55
Yeah, every single time you're like, oh, I love that, you know,
30:59
the dynamic of them and no, that.
31:03
That's a real skill though, isn't it?
31:04
And it's a skill that Dick's deployed in horror of fame rock
31:09
when he introduced all those characters really vividly.
31:11
And then bump them all off Pyramids and Mars when all those
31:14
characters are introduced and they're all bumped off 1 by 1 to
31:17
sort of give you a snapshot of somebody that you like and then
31:21
snatch them away. Yeah, and some of them you don't
31:24
spend an awful lot of time with. I've got, I've had actually
31:27
bookmarks put points in the book.
31:30
It's the bit when Gaddis dies, it's the unpleasantness of his
31:32
death because he's a likeable enough character.
31:35
And then it's the bit about. Already the air was being
31:39
squeezed out through the hole in his windpipe, and all he could
31:42
manage was a dry rasp of pain. His nostrils were full of the
31:45
stench of his flesh as it seared away.
31:49
Where the housekeeper died, where they they're in the house
31:53
just going about her chores and she's saying you know, get out
31:56
of the house, you robbers. And then Mrs. Erton comes along
31:59
and just. Grabs her face right, and sees
32:02
her flesh right down to the bone.
32:03
I was like, what did she do to desert?
32:06
Were you having a bad day? Justin Richards, you know.
32:09
Ah, he likes he bumps them off quite nasty.
32:13
I mean the first day at the beginning one of the words he
32:15
uses is I think it's earthen is smothered by the stone is
32:19
glutinous. It's some of the some of the
32:22
descriptions are really real. It's.
32:25
It just doesn't. It makes me.
32:28
Just tense up a bit. Glutinous.
32:31
Yeah. It's the way that I would just
32:33
paint in just a few words, this terribly horrific incident.
32:39
And I suppose there's also that primal fear of fire, which is
32:42
something that we're all supposed to.
32:45
And this book is just every thing you've ever worried about.
32:50
It's like one of those safety films from the 1970s.
32:52
You know, don't don't touch the Frisbee, because stay away from
32:55
the Frisbee. It's literally every fire cliche
33:00
of terribleness that you could possibly do.
33:03
It happens in one of these chapters.
33:05
It's so good. Oh yeah, you're always reminded
33:07
that it's there. There's always, there's always
33:09
references to the fire burning in the great or, you know, the
33:13
the room was oddly warm and there's just there's something,
33:16
there's some reason it's always ticking over.
33:18
You're never allowed to forget that there's something in the
33:21
fire, and it's the root of the problem.
33:24
Yeah. It's great how it's a slow burn
33:26
as well, and it just starts off with lots of sort of character
33:29
scenes and so intellectual discussion as well.
33:32
There's that whole discussion of science versus religion.
33:34
So it's got some smarts in there as well.
33:36
But by the end of the book, we're in proper Doctor Who
33:38
territory. A mountain of molten lava is
33:42
rolling towards Middleton and the Doctor somehow is going to
33:45
try and stop it, you know, so it gets very epic by the end.
33:50
Yeah, the scale of it, it's quite it's going from.
33:53
Being quite a nice selfcontained little drama, you can picture it
33:56
sort of being quite static in this set I am or just around 3
34:02
walls. But then it's massive panorama
34:05
and you know you're on this dam and it's crashing down and yeah,
34:10
all the molten lava. It's just I don't know how they
34:12
would ever realize that in a million years, but it's.
34:15
Think Inferno Episode 6 or episode what everyone You know,
34:19
we're not so. Strawberry jams coming towards
34:21
the camp, Yeah, and the airfits. Aerials and things A.
34:25
Little bit would it. Be a little sheep or something,
34:27
Maybe now I'm going. To ask the pair of you a quiz
34:30
question. Now okay, because we're
34:33
imagining this as a 70s Doctor Who story, I would like you both
34:37
to cast the main villain, Roger Napoff.
34:43
Gosh. I'm trying to rack my brains
34:47
now. I'm trying to think.
34:49
I've been watching I, Claudius. Maybe somebody from I, Claudius
34:51
would be a good fit. I'm going to pitch for Jeremy.
34:55
Brett Sherlock Holmes, Because I think he'd be.
34:58
He's got that for his face, isn't he?
35:01
Yeah, you could do. Something with those cheekbones
35:03
and make him look very yes, I I think he would laugh that up
35:07
with me, my, my daughter. Is here rich, cynical voice?
35:16
Well, the first person that came to my head and this is just such
35:21
an odd thing that it was just a, I thought Kenneth Williams just
35:28
just because I want someone who is you know a self, you know,
35:34
like a Hancock or you know Williams that's so self
35:38
important but it keeps on being punctuated.
35:41
And I could just imagine, especially if you watch
35:43
something like carry on screaming, you know, it's that
35:46
you know it's that way that he, you know Kenneth Williams was a
35:50
good actor. You know, I know he did a lot of
35:52
comedy. He could do this serious.
35:55
He could do this serious and he would just, you know, someone.
35:59
I think it could be a different type of role for him.
36:04
But it was just when I was thinking because I was picturing
36:07
someone tall slender Terence you know the guy from the demon
36:13
headmaster I thought would also I thought was another one but
36:19
it's just I I thought of had that you know the whole Marcus
36:23
scarm and look to Napier as well and just you know.
36:27
But I just was trying to think of, you know, when you're trying
36:30
to because you said Jeremy Brett, which was another one of
36:32
my things and he did scifi, he was in Galactic in 1980 or
36:36
whatever it was of his. I thought of the name I would
36:42
divide, Bernard Hepton. He was someone who was.
36:47
He was never in a Doctor Who. He really should have been.
36:49
He looked quite like what's his name.
36:52
Abeneri, who was in If the Dialects and Fury from the Deep.
36:58
But he was a really good actor. He was the lead in secret army.
37:03
Somebody. Very composed, and he also did.
37:09
Play for today. Who's very Stony faced and very
37:23
just as a great sort of self posset you know he there's
37:27
something about his character he just he walks in and there's
37:29
quite presence. I think it's called Robin Red.
37:12
Red Breast. I might be misremembering might
37:14
have the title wrong, but he plays this local sort of cult.
37:33
And I think he might have been right now, because I want to go
37:35
and find. Some of that man's work, he
37:37
sounds amazing. He's, he's, he's one of these.
37:39
Actors who could play a real variety of roles and I think
37:42
he's got somebody he's got somebody of such he's somebody
37:44
of such caliber that he would have been a real a quite of a
37:47
coup for it to be cast in a Doctor Who story like that.
37:52
I. You mentioned earlier Mark about
37:55
the descriptive passages and you said Chris, how very quickly you
38:00
know he he you could visualize a scene.
38:03
So do you think the pros was good here?
38:05
Because I'm telling you now, I'll write a lot of Doctor Who
38:07
books, and the pros convey from effortlessly readable to utterly
38:14
indecipherable that how did you think this this like?
38:18
Was this a smooth read? I think so, yeah.
38:23
Sometimes. I mean, when I've been reading a
38:24
lot, I've been reading a lot of other Doctor Who books.
38:26
This year. I am.
38:27
There have been moments where. I've had to pause and go back
38:31
and read a bit again because I've lost track of where I am.
38:34
I'm not sure what the setting is.
38:36
It's maybe not clear enough when it comes to this.
38:39
I never, I've never felt out of my depth.
38:41
It was clear enough prose style. It's not highfalutin literature
38:49
or anything like that at all, but it is accessible and vivid
38:54
enough that it keeps you entertained and engrossed in
38:57
what's going on. I thought it was really good.
39:03
I agree. It's such a nice paste book that
39:08
you know it does. It's not lulling you into a
39:11
false and security. It's not like you're reading one
39:13
passage really chapter really fast and then you're having to
39:16
sort of slow down. It's a constant pace and with
39:21
the dialogue of what's going on, you can visualize it, but it's
39:24
not, you know, we were stuck down a windy tunnel and it was
39:27
done. You know it's not going, just
39:30
you have to be describing every atom of it.
39:32
You're given enough information in very few words about the
39:37
scenery so you can follow the story all the way through
39:39
without it intruding. And I think that was really
39:42
clever all the way through. Always say we were Justin.
39:44
Richards He does write sort of quite clipped sentences.
39:49
He doesn't write long sentences and it's a bit like
39:53
terroristics. There is a.
39:55
A fit like a an economic sense of description.
39:58
But I think he uses more. He puts you more in the scene
40:02
than Terence Dix ever did. Sights and the smells and how
40:06
things feel, things like that. But I think where his strengths
40:11
are is how he plots a book, which is.
40:15
This is a bit of an odd diversion, because his usual
40:17
trick is to write a book and to make you get to know characters
40:23
halfway through the book. And then in the second-half you
40:26
realize nobody and no one is what they seem and everything
40:30
they said they're up to, they're up to something completely
40:32
different. And he does it time and again
40:34
with new series of ventures and and past doctor ventures and
40:37
this was just a very sort of intimate horror tale.
40:42
This, this feels like a complete diversion for him.
40:44
I think he should have done a bit more of this it.
40:48
Holds up so well. I like the way that the tension
40:51
just. Slowly and steadily builds, and
40:55
you have every sort of second or third chapter a flashpoint,
41:00
something, some death or other that reminds you what's at
41:04
stake. And then there's the aftermath
41:06
of it, and it just keeps rumbling on.
41:08
There's going to be another death.
41:09
If we don't find out soon what to get to the bottom of this,
41:13
There's the next death, and it just keeps going on and on and
41:17
on until the scale of it becomes apparent.
41:19
So it's very. It's neatly done.
41:21
You never forget this, that what's at stake?
41:24
You don't ever forget about the threat, but you're not being
41:29
overwhelmed. It's not constant bombardment of
41:33
drama and hype. It's just neatly, very there,
41:38
all the time, floating along. Can I ask you both a question?
41:42
I know Joe was just about to sorry Joe.
41:44
I don't if you having to put this as a television episode.
41:50
How many parts would you split it into?
41:52
Would you think this would be a four parter, 6 parter, 4245
41:57
minute episodes? You know, with the way the book
42:00
works, Have you, you know, when you're reading it, do you sort
42:03
of try and think, oh, this would be a good place for a
42:05
cliffhanger? Or, you know, did you get that
42:08
at all when you were reading it? A couple of times I thought I'd
42:12
say A4 parter. I think this is this is ideally
42:15
sort of plotted as a four parter and you've got a couple of set
42:19
pieces the where they go to sort of a high jeopardy moment where
42:25
you can have a brilliant cliffhanger.
42:27
Yeah, solid. Four, I think there's there's
42:30
enough going on that you could adapt that quite.
42:33
Comfortably into sort of 90 minutes and for installments
42:38
that would work pretty neatly. That's why that's how I.
42:42
Was reading it as well, but it's just because you know when
42:44
you're doing it, you're sort of thinking is it just me that
42:47
suddenly thinks, oh, you know this is where how I would do it
42:50
if it was on great. Yeah, I don't.
42:53
Think a Doctor Who fan can really?
42:56
Read a Doctor Who book and not at some point or other thing.
42:59
How would they realize that? Wow.
43:02
All the time the. Trouble is, if it's a new series
43:07
novel, I'm seeing dreadful sort of early 2000s CSO that's sort
43:11
of the sky, you know? If it's a 70s one, I'm seeing
43:13
dreadful CSO. Yeah, it's so funny that we
43:16
can't. I can't.
43:18
To read a story that set in a certain period, with a certain
43:20
doctor, without seeing it, with those production values in my
43:23
mind's eye. And that is our problem.
43:26
Yeah, yeah. I mean, some of these stories
43:28
would be amazing if there were, you know, a 70 story done with
43:30
the production values of today would be fantastic.
43:34
But that's not how I see it in my imagination at all.
43:39
Okay. So another question then.
43:42
Did the Doctor kill Naive Path? In the climax log, he does.
43:50
Doesn't he? I think.
43:50
Does he not? That's how I read it, yeah,
43:53
yeah. You're you're given the the hint
43:57
that obviously this is the Doctor.
43:58
He's going to be compassionate, he's going to try to save him
44:01
and some, you know, the usual cliche, Something will stop that
44:05
from happening and they'll get washed away and he'll meet his
44:07
feet. But the Doctor won't be directly
44:09
involved in him meeting his feet, but it basically kicks him
44:13
aside and lets him go. I think the word uses viciously
44:18
kicks, so the. Statue Fall is The statue of his
44:22
own sister falls on top of him and drowns him.
44:26
Is. That OK, Chris.
44:29
Yes, no, no because. If you were doing a series about
44:35
the 8th Doctor, that would be totally, you know, unacceptable.
44:41
That isn't who the character is. But this is a new character
44:44
that's being forged with no memories and trying to make the
44:48
best of what he can, you know. And if you think, as we're
44:52
saying, it's like that serial default, you look how friendly
44:57
the Doctor was in the Tribe of Gun or, you know, an unhealthy
45:01
child to that. You know, he's had that part of
45:05
him that you know gradually companions and time has sort of
45:10
taken out from him, you know? Calafray is a really brutal
45:14
place. They still have corporal
45:15
punishment there. You know, it it it's so suddenly
45:20
the Doctor without all the doctorness for him.
45:23
It's sort of like a it's a default that's potentially that
45:26
could be there all the time. We don't know how he behaves
45:29
anymore where there's no predictable path for him.
45:33
And in fact, you never lose that in the second-half of the Ave.
45:36
Doctor run because I remember there's a scene, I never forget
45:39
it in Timeless by Steve Cole, which is a very arc heavy book
45:42
towards the end where there's this awful man who's been
45:46
hurting women and doing just terrible.
45:49
He's a character you'd only get in the books.
45:51
You know, he's a misogynist who's been like violently
45:54
hurting women. And the doctor finally has a
45:56
confrontation with him and he goes to walk away and he's on
45:58
the phone to the police dubbing him in.
46:02
And then he turns around and he breaks his leg and he goes, oh,
46:06
by the way, we're going to need an ambulance as well and just
46:08
walks off. This is great.
46:14
Soon. But I you know, you think about
46:15
Deep Breath. They tried to suggest this in
46:17
Deep Breath with Capo, didn't they?
46:18
He's up in that balloon. Did he murder that man or not?
46:22
But they couldn't explicitly show you where.
46:25
They absolutely explicitly show you in this capable.
46:29
Of anything. So I do wonder how much of an
46:33
influence it was on people that have come since.
46:38
We know the the books have had an influence, don't we?
46:41
Yeah. And Stephen Moffett.
46:42
For I think Stephen Moffett, Rusty Davies, for example,
46:44
pretty much read and have all the new adventures and all the
46:48
BBC books. So these things will probably be
46:50
percolating at the back of their mind, and consciously or
46:54
subconsciously, they've harked back to some of the themes and
46:57
things that have come up in the books.
46:59
When their time came round to do Doctor Who, I am baffled.
47:03
You know, certain writers, and I'm going to include Justin
47:05
Richards, never got one shot at the TV series.
47:09
When they done their time and proven time and again they could
47:12
write really good Doctor Who, yeah, I think Justin Richards
47:15
would have turned out, you know, they gave Mark Gates enough
47:18
chances. I did he nail it and I was open
47:24
to the play, but when you look at.
47:27
Everything that Justin Richards has written for, he's written
47:30
for it pretty much every single range of books going in.
47:34
Much. Every I think he's done every
47:36
doctor, actually, pretty much, Yeah.
47:38
So. He's a very capable pair of
47:41
hands, but who knows? I mean, if he's obviously, if
47:43
he's not got a track record for doing TV, then that he'll just
47:47
be overlooked. Yeah, that's sad but true.
47:52
But he's also done his. Research here as well.
47:55
One thing that I only found out when I was doing a bit more
47:57
research, you know that they talk about the Society for
48:01
Psychological Research or you know, the one that all through
48:05
the book it's real, I think. It's not a unity.
48:09
It's a genuine thing that got founded to, you know, explore
48:14
the kookier parts of science. So I was so I was, you know?
48:20
So I thought, you know. I was thinking myself, was this
48:24
a real place? I couldn't find any record of
48:26
the town, you know, in case there was something about a town
48:28
that got flooded. But the fact that he's actually
48:31
gone off and thinking who would investigate this sort of thing
48:34
at that sort of time? I mean nowadays it would be the
48:37
default would be some branch of Torchwood or you know, some one
48:42
of the ones that you know. But the fact that he's actually
48:44
found that there was this, well, still is.
48:47
There's a society out there. It investigates.
48:52
Extraordinary phenomena, you know.
48:54
Blind horror okay. I want a job, yeah.
49:00
Well, and I feel like he's done a lot of research in this
49:02
because in those there's scenes, isn't there where he said.
49:07
I did make some notes where he's talking about heaven and hell,
49:12
where he's talking about the scientific minds of the time, as
49:17
I already said, like science versus religion, but it it
49:20
didn't feel like this is just some right just just tapping it
49:23
off, but that he'd actually done a bit of digging.
49:27
It seemed quite well. Grounded.
49:29
It felt like a real world. You know that there wasn't
49:33
anything to landish or you know, it wasn't fantastical.
49:36
It was quite, you know, a lot of it was very plausible.
49:39
And you, you could feel a grip on that reality.
49:42
So I think that was probably why characters like Gaddis and Dobbs
49:46
and Stubborns, is it stubborn? I'm not sure how to pronounce
49:49
it. Yeah.
49:49
You end up, you end up getting quite attached to these
49:51
characters because they feel very real and they're they are
49:54
living in a very tangible environment, something that we
49:58
can recognize quite readily. So it's a well, I appreciated
50:02
that and it really sold it. There's a small bit of trivia
50:06
which somebody that's kind of read the range will know.
50:10
And that is he writes a book much later on called Time Zero,
50:15
which features a new form of radiation from another universe
50:20
bleeding into us. And it's mysterious and
50:24
unknowable and causing all sorts of problems, And eventually it
50:29
gets channeled down into the molten core of the Earth and
50:32
sent back in time to 18 whatever.
50:35
And the end of the book is towards the burning or something
50:40
like that with a capital B. So it's like the origin story of
50:43
where these creatures in this book came.
50:46
And that's the sort of thing you can only do when you're used
50:49
yourself or editoring a series of books.
50:53
It's it's a nice sort of circular bit of plotting that's
50:55
quite neat. Yeah.
50:58
I like that, yeah, because I think the thing I quite enjoyed
51:00
about The Burning is that it was one of those stories where it's
51:02
not really overtly obvious what the what the the villain is and
51:07
what their purpose is. You know, they're they've just,
51:09
they're just there, they're a threat and and that's that's
51:13
enough in itself. They're quite, you know, there's
51:14
quite a scary threat. They're horrible men made out of
51:18
flames. Unpleasant and marauding.
51:22
And yeah, you don't mess with them.
51:25
Well, look, to bring our discussion of the burning to a
51:27
close, I'm going to ask you both Is there anything else you want
51:32
to cover? And would you recommend this
51:35
book to a Doctor Who fan? I think I know the answer, but
51:38
I'm going to ask you both anyway.
51:40
Look. The only thing that I want to
51:43
cover that we've not mentioned is when I was starting to take
51:47
notes, I was trying to figure out the time frame this takes
51:50
place over. It seems to me like it maybe
51:52
takes place over just. Two or three days, but Upton.
51:57
Manages to source all these weapons and equipment.
52:01
And the more I thought about it, I mean, how did he manage to do
52:04
that? Because there's the auction and
52:05
there's the money and there's the turn around times and it
52:08
doesn't spoil the story at all. But once it dawned on me, I
52:11
suddenly thought, how long does it?
52:14
It's not explicit. I mean, he gets his.
52:17
What's his name? Napaf gets into the house quick.
52:28
I mean, it doesn't detract from their story at all.
52:19
All of his stuff gets moved into the house.
52:21
You know, he's set up and he's in charge.
52:23
And yet they make that feel like it was like a day.
52:27
Yeah, it's. But it was once it dawned on me.
52:32
I said, what, Justin Rich, as we're putting it out to you now,
52:37
what's the time period of the burning?
52:39
Yeah. How long did it last?
52:40
For where? Where, when, what?
52:42
Explain. You better.
52:43
Listen, we said a lot of lovely things about your book, all
52:45
right? Yes, we have enjoyed it
52:47
enormously. Grace the.
52:51
Only thing I I was. Going to say, which is a real
52:53
pleasure. If someone hasn't read this book
52:55
before, I think you can tell that I really loved it.
52:57
Anyway, is the fact that I've now listened to hundreds of Big
53:04
Finish audios containing Paul Mcgann's Dr. When I originally
53:08
read this book, back in the dark days of this sort of late 90s, I
53:14
didn't really have Paul Mcgann's voice because I'd seen him in
53:19
the movie, but he doesn't really have that many lines in the
53:22
movie, you know, to really grab a grasp of the character.
53:28
But now, listening to all the Big Finish audios I could
53:33
really. Hear his voice.
53:35
And I can see that they've really used aspects of this
53:38
version of the 8th Doctor as he is now in some of things.
53:42
And I could hear his specific lilt and phrasing a lot stronger
53:48
in the time, which I think considering at the time I, you
53:51
know, it could have been just a blank.
53:54
You know, I was just, I couldn't really give you the Doctor's
53:57
voice at the time. But now, reading this book back,
54:01
it's such a privilege to do it. Because it really showcases how
54:06
far you know that character has become, that he's synonymous
54:10
with the page and now leaked out and you know how you'd expect
54:13
him to behave even more. When you read this 20 odd years
54:17
ago, 20-30 odd years ago, it's it's really for me, that was a
54:21
real eye opener when I was rereading it.
54:23
Wouldn't you love Paul McGann to read this as an audio?
54:29
Really. What the The only sort of thing
54:32
I want to say is Chekhov's Weir, which is mentioned right in the
54:37
beginning of the book, this weird as holding back this
54:39
enormous body of water. It's a bit like Hexachromite gas
54:43
in The Warriors of the Deep, you know, where they say it's
54:46
lethal. To marine life.
54:48
So thank God we haven't got any, you know, and it's very not like
54:53
Justin Richards to point out the climax of the story right at the
54:57
beginning of the story. And we kind of keep going back
54:59
to the Weir throughout, but it's not too much of A complaint
55:02
because I think the sequence where it splits and it sort of
55:07
gushes down over the Malta Nava and the town.
55:10
That's where the drama is because if the doctors go well,
55:13
I don't care, we're going to flood the town.
55:15
It's either that or this thing floods the town, you know, kill
55:18
a few people versus. Have the whole world destroyed?
55:21
What would you prefer here? So there's the other it's.
55:25
It's it's a neat set up quite like that.
55:27
I keep seeing me but it wasn't. I could just still see, you
55:31
know, like a BBC brick wall that they've done with just a tiny
55:35
little gap in it and a bucket of water coming through.
55:40
On the the Ex Lawn City. Just melting and it just
55:44
explodes. Water coming.
55:47
Just like that. Would you recommend this to a
55:50
Doctor Who fan, Mark? Yes.
55:53
As somebody who came to the Doctor range more or less blind,
55:57
I was, yeah, I enjoyed this. As I said at the start, I went
56:01
into, it's a little bit skeptical because I didn't know
56:04
about the previous arcs, and the Doctor without memory just
56:09
phased me slightly. I thought, you know, what's the
56:11
likelihood that he's, you know, they're, are they going to try
56:13
and do something really so outlandishly out of character
56:17
that I'm not going to engage with this at all, but.
56:21
There's still enough essential doctorishness about what happens
56:25
in this tale to engage a fan, So is a good stepping on point for
56:29
the range and I'd recommend it as a as a as a from what I've
56:33
read of the the BBC books, it's one of the top ones.
56:37
That's that's the the big finish line that is.
56:40
It's a good jumping on point. They say that on every release.
56:43
Great jumping on point and it never is.
56:46
But you're right, this is a genuinely what about you Chris?
56:52
Yeah. It's.
56:54
I think I've said it already. It's just such a good way to
56:58
start to learn about a character and it's the essence of the
57:03
character is there and if you follow the rest of the story
57:06
out, which hopefully people read this, they'll then try and find
57:09
if they're still available the next people.
57:12
I did try and get the next ones in the sequence.
57:16
The Turing Test is ridiculously expensive.
57:18
Or not eBay at the moment, but it's a pity because it's so
57:24
clever. I would love to see these
57:26
reissued at some point. You know, we've got the 60th
57:28
anniversary coming up. It would be nice to get like a
57:32
collective volume just to sort of, you know, Paul McGann
57:35
sometimes gets not forgotten about because obviously he's in
57:38
all the audio media. But sometimes he I think he
57:41
deserves a little bit extra spotlight put on him because.
57:45
He stuck with the series even when he wasn't a huge scifi fan.
57:49
He's had to put up with a lot, and I just think it would be
57:52
nice to get a tribute to him with some of these sets of his,
57:57
you know, the books that came out right, That Disney Plus
58:01
series featuring Paul McGann is in the works as we speak.
58:05
Make it happen. If we all wish hard enough, I I
58:10
would absolutely recommend this to a Doctor Who fan as well.
58:12
So it's free for free, I think, to take away every tenant of
58:16
Doctor Who, not David Tennant or Georgia Tennant.
58:19
To take away every aspect of Doctor Who, the TARDIS, the
58:22
Companion, the continuity and effectively the Doctor, and
58:26
still tell a story that feels quintessentially like a Doctor
58:30
Who story is so clever. And it is.
58:34
It is just a very cozy, brooding, slightly grisly Horror
58:40
Story. And we love it.
58:41
We love a death count in Doctor Who.
58:43
I don't know why. We're all a bit weird, aren't
58:45
we? We're all a bit bloodthirsty.
58:47
Deep day? Well, okay, I don't think we
58:50
could give that much more of a glowing endorsement.
58:53
Thank you very much, chaps. What I'd like to ask you both to
59:04
do now is to recommend and your reason why a Doctor Who book.
59:10
And this time, I'm going to start with Chris.
59:15
OK. I'm going to pick again, it's
59:19
from the BBC range, it's for the past Doctors and it's a big
59:26
thank you to Gary Russell. It's business unusual, which I
59:31
read, which could be a very fan wankery book.
59:39
If it was sort of done because it's got everything, it's the
59:42
male introduction story, it's got the 6th Doctor and the
59:47
Brigadier, it's got the plastic fantastic Autumns in it.
59:52
It's, you know, it's trying to get a lot of this through.
59:56
And The thing is, I think at the time Colin Baker's Dr. had had a
1:00:01
real, you know, he'd had everything kicked to him and.
1:00:06
For me, growing up, he was my doctor, you know, on the screen.
1:00:10
That was the first one I watched, the one I recommended.
1:00:14
But when I was reading all the other handbooks, everything
1:00:17
else, I was told sort of not. I shouldn't be enjoying his
1:00:21
doctor. It was the wrong thing to do,
1:00:25
and I just never felt. And when I'd read the past
1:00:28
Doctor adventures in the Virgin range, it never was the hero
1:00:33
that I kind of wanted him to be. Suddenly, Gary Russell in this
1:00:38
book gives us a heroic, fantastic 6th Doctor, which I
1:00:44
think other media has latched on to run on.
1:00:48
But this is sort of like one of the biggest building blocks, you
1:00:51
know, for the redemption of Colin as a Doctor.
1:00:55
And I think it's when people start to really think about his
1:00:57
character a little bit more rather than just and going back
1:01:01
and watching them and not just repeating what other people have
1:01:03
told them. They thought about the story and
1:01:07
you know, it's there. There is.
1:01:10
I think it's a lovely interpretation of a queer
1:01:12
character as well in this book as Trey.
1:01:16
And it was done in a sympathetic way, but it wasn't, you know,
1:01:19
creturious to the storyline at all it it just sort of embedded
1:01:23
it. But as an impressionable, you
1:01:26
know, team at the time, this just really came into my own.
1:01:42
That's next on the list. And you know, if Gary does hear
1:01:34
this, not only am I recommending this book, I just want to show
1:01:36
you a big thank you for that. That's.
1:01:45
The sequences of the 6th Doctor Putin around the English
1:01:48
countries are like toad of toad, all laughing head off and just
1:01:51
having fun. And I remember reading it going
1:01:53
now. We should have seen this on TV
1:01:55
this year. Old, you know.
1:01:57
He's he's in a burger restaurant he you know, and he's there and
1:02:02
there's a little girl and you know the mother thinks he's
1:02:04
going to yell at the little girl for being noisy.
1:02:06
And he's he's just, it's brilliant with the little girl
1:02:09
and it's just these little characteristics and you're like.
1:02:13
And you know, this is how Colin can be.
1:02:15
And as you know, we've seen with companions like Evelyn and other
1:02:20
you know, you know, things gone from there.
1:02:24
It takes someone just to just tweet the doctor and just move
1:02:28
some of the, and I think a lot of people still believe a lot of
1:02:32
the hype about Colin. You know Colin's Dr. books like
1:02:37
this and a lot of the Big Finish stuff.
1:02:39
If you haven't listened to any of that I totally recommend it.
1:02:43
But you know, honestly, Gary's interpretation of Colin here,
1:02:48
and considering it's just it's got it's a book that's trying to
1:02:50
do so much. Introducing Mel, yet another
1:02:54
origin story for her. But even and I think Mel comes
1:02:59
across as fantastic capable, you can see her rebelling against
1:03:03
her parents in a believable way for you know, that, you know,
1:03:07
middle class girl to rebel against their parents.
1:03:10
And I I just think it's cleverly done so that I'm going to stop
1:03:14
beaming and saying this. But guy Russell, thank you.
1:03:17
Well that's a great choice. Oh.
1:03:19
Yeah, lovely, Mark. I'm not going to pretend that I
1:03:23
can remember the plot very clearly of the book that I'm
1:03:25
going to recommend because I read it around about the time it
1:03:28
came out, which I think is about 2006, But my recommendation is
1:03:33
The Stone Rose by Jack Rayner. Oh, how?
1:03:36
Funny, I've chosen the Jack Rayner book as well.
1:03:38
Go on. I love, I mean.
1:03:40
Jack Rayner her writing, just if her name's on a book on a
1:03:44
script, I want to know. I have to get it.
1:03:47
She is. She really doesn't get the
1:03:49
priest she deserves. She's very modest.
1:03:53
She's not somebody who does a lot of interviews.
1:03:54
She's not out there in fan circles very much, but she is
1:03:59
somebody that I'm always behind. I always love to see her name on
1:04:02
stuff and read her stuff, and The Stone Rose is probably one
1:04:07
of my absolute favorites. I remember picking it up and not
1:04:11
putting it down until I'd finished.
1:04:13
I did it in one sitting. It was just so.
1:04:17
Vivid Others can still think about all the chases that the
1:04:20
Doctrine Rose have around the Italian countryside.
1:04:23
Trying to track down sculptures and trying to get to the the
1:04:26
root of what's going on and who it was that's designed this
1:04:29
sculpture and why things are the way they are.
1:04:32
I am. Can't see there's been any other
1:04:35
Doctor Who because ever picked up and had to read and felt
1:04:39
compelled to finish in one sitting.
1:04:41
Like I cancelled my plans for the day to get it done because I
1:04:45
just. I enjoyed it so much so that
1:04:48
would be my recommendation, and it might be one that I'm going
1:04:51
to have to revisit. And there's a Jack Rayner.
1:04:54
Book or audio that I haven't just thought was and she's.
1:04:58
Doing it now with the signature and Heebee for Big Finish.
1:05:02
Amazing stuff. She just.
1:05:05
She just remembers the humor. She makes her work funny and
1:05:09
heartbreaking as well. Because remember the pirates gem
1:05:12
the cabin boy. You know you can be a cow as
1:05:15
well, but she makes you laugh. Do you remember the last Dodo?
1:05:18
Did you read that one? Doctor Martha going around.
1:05:22
The whole of the universe looking for as many extinct
1:05:24
species as possible. The final gag on the last page
1:05:28
is the ultimate extinct species, The Doctor from Gallupre, Last
1:05:33
of the Time Lord. She's just brilliant.
1:05:36
My recommendation though is it's a very dark book that she wrote.
1:05:41
It's, and it's a bit niche because it's a Bernice book, but
1:05:45
it's called The Glass Prison and it was.
1:05:48
It came out at the time when Big Big Finish were doing Benny
1:05:52
Books and audios concurrently, and weirdly, there was a
1:05:55
narrative that was running and you had to listen and read for
1:06:00
the story to make sense that there were plot if you would
1:06:03
just listen to the audios. There were plot developments
1:06:05
happening in the books. You become well, when did that?
1:06:07
When did Benny fall pregnant? No, you found that out in the
1:06:09
books. But this is the book where she
1:06:12
gives birth to Peter. She's been captured by Neo
1:06:15
Nazis, the 5th Axis, and thrown into prison.
1:06:18
And it's a glass prison, so there are no walls.
1:06:22
There are only so everybody can see everybody and it's all told
1:06:28
first person from her point of view.
1:06:30
And it's. Really, it's very funny because
1:06:34
she's she gives birth in the book, so there's all the
1:06:37
tribulations about having to give birth, but it's very dark
1:06:40
as well because there's some really horrible characters in it
1:06:44
that do terrible things to her. And just the the sequence where
1:06:48
she has to give birth in front, that very intimate thing exposed
1:06:53
to everybody else in this prison, It's, I think genuinely
1:06:57
is one of the best Doctor Who or Doctor Who related books ever
1:07:00
written. Like you, I had to finish that
1:07:02
I'd stay. I don't often stay up until
1:07:04
night reading books. And she got her clause into me
1:07:08
on page one in that very sort of immediate first person narrative
1:07:13
right up until the end. Well, I seem to remember because
1:07:16
she thought it was going to be the end of the Bernice Ranch for
1:07:19
some reason. Gary Russell says no, we never
1:07:21
said that, but she thought it was.
1:07:23
So the doctor comes and visits her at the end of the book.
1:07:25
I think boy might be McGann. I can't remember now.
1:07:29
And sees her son. But it's a fantastic read and
1:07:32
Lisa Baumann McQueen has just read this as an audio book.
1:07:37
So if you don't want the arduous task of finding, I think it's
1:07:41
about a fiver. The audio book, it's brilliant.
1:07:45
Give it a read stroke, listen is unforgettable.
1:07:49
I'll have to give it a listen because I.
1:07:50
Could listen to these environments voice all day,
1:07:53
every day. Did you listen to me?
1:07:57
And Mark Quisener on Bernice Summerfield to see if she'd been
1:07:59
paying attention. I haven't yet, but I.
1:08:03
Get an interview with her and we.
1:08:04
Asked her five questions. True or false, Did this happen
1:08:07
to Bernice? And she got all five of them
1:08:09
right. I couldn't believe it.
1:08:10
We went right back to just war, for God's sake.
1:08:13
It it wasn't just easy questions you gave her as well.
1:08:16
It was like, what's the most obscure things we can ask?
1:08:18
And just to show that we know more than you, and she got the
1:08:21
whole lot. Oh.
1:08:23
Good honor. Listen boys, that was.
1:08:25
The most wonderful conversation Thank you so much.
1:08:29
Dare I be able to ask if I can entice you back for another read
1:08:33
and another discussion? Maybe I'm.
1:08:37
Swimming in books. So yes, I'd absolutely love to
1:08:41
as well. Well, I'll say, I'll.
1:08:44
Kick the randomizer into gear then and throw another book at
1:08:47
you. But before we go.
1:08:50
If people would like to discover you on social media or
1:08:54
elsewhere, if you want to listen to Mark Dodik, you know there's
1:08:57
some fantastic episodes of A Hamster with Blunt Penknife On
1:09:01
Theory from The Deep Mummy from the Orient Express, What else
1:09:05
Have we Done? Planet of the Youde.
1:09:07
Planet of the Youde. And Caves of Andrew Zanni.
1:09:10
Oh my God, how can I? Forget that one caves man.
1:09:13
More to come, but yeah, going. But could you please just tell
1:09:17
people where you are on social media?
1:09:19
In case they want to find you, I'm on the.
1:09:21
Social media platform formerly known as Twitter and it's mark,
1:09:26
under score, dottic, spelled dodyk.
1:09:29
Or you can find me on Instagram and it's just Mark dottic, all
1:09:32
one word, all lowercase. Bruce Yeah, I am on Twitter or
1:09:40
whatever the name we're calling Twitter now and it's Chris.
1:09:45
PHNX because when I was 20 I couldn't spell phoenix and.
1:09:51
And I'm also on Instagram as well, the same same Addie.
1:09:56
So on both of those, back them out guys, they're.
1:09:59
Fantastic people and they're fantastic accounts.
1:10:02
Thank you very much. You're both fabulous.
1:10:05
It's been wonderful to have this conversation.
1:10:07
Been great fun. Thank.
1:10:08
You very much. Thank you, Mark.
1:10:10
Thank you, Joe. Did you call me Mark then?
1:10:13
I was caught saying thank you to both of you because.
1:10:18
There's two of you. That's how I was doing it.
1:10:21
I started with Mark. Sorry, Mark for a.
1:10:23
Second, I forgot you and Mark. I thought you was mistaken me
1:10:26
from my over half. Then for a second, you're
1:10:28
surrounded by Mark. There's.
1:10:29
Just two. There's a lot of.