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The Surprising Truth About Nonprofit Success: Support Systems That Work · Hart & Hustle Podcast

• Efrain: We're back on another episode of the Heart and Hustle Podcast. We got Miss Glenda, another virtual leader. From where though, Glenda? Where are you visiting from? Glennda Testone: I am visiting, so my computer is placed currently in Asbury Park, New Jersey. so we are it's that day and and we're in that place where that nor'easter is supposed to hit the east coast. So we're all it's the quiet before the storm today. Efrain: no way. I would I'm in Florida. I would expect something like that happening, you know, here. I'm fingers crossed. Yeah, fingers crossed though, because it we've been really good this year. and it's been it's been crazy because Glennda Testone: No, it's further north. Yeah, it's yeah, fingers crossed. Fingers crossed, everything's okay. Efrain: I know Hawaii, where my co-host Keenan is also experiencing a lot of weather out there. so I hope everything is good. Hopefully nothing too crazy. Hopefully you guys keep your Wi-Fi, Glennda Testone: Yeah. Efrain: because then how do you live without the Wi-Fi? Glennda Testone: I don't I don't know. I don't know how to work without the Wi Fi. Work or live, I guess. Efrain: It is weird. It happened to me one of the hurricanes actually that passed by. We didn't have internet for a week. So I found myself going to the coffee shop. But the problem is that I have a whole setup here with three screens and camera and all this. So now having to mobile my podcast Glennda Testone: Yeah, I understand. Efrain: to go elsewhere. I just hate working off a laptop. Yeah, I know. And then Glennda Testone: From a coffee shop, that's hard. Yeah. Efrain: working from three screens to one screen, that always drives me a little nuts, to be quite frank, you know, so Glennda Testone: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. You're beyond me. I'm I'm still a one screen gal, but everybody else I work with Efrain: no. Glennda Testone: is multiple. Yeah. I it's I'm a little low lo fi in that way. Efrain: Glenda, you you would love when you experience that, it's like there's no going back. It's like when we experience internet, there's no going back, right? Like you gotta get to another screen, girl. You gotta get to another screen. Glennda Testone: Yeah. All right. I know. I'm I'm like on the verge of it when I do webinars and workshops. I'm like, it really would help to have like the PowerPoint here and then the other things here and then the chat. Efrain: Come on, see. Glennda Testone: Like we're I'm getting there. I'm just not quite there yet. Efrain: No worries, no worries. So tell everybody, you talked about the webinar, you talked about all these different chats. What is the organization that you're doing all this for? Glennda Testone: so the organization that I'm the CEO of is the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. And we are an online community of thousands of nonprofit leaders, both board and staff, who are leading nonprofit organizations in the US and around the world. we provide training and support and resources and templates. For our nonprofit leaders, and then they support each other in an amazing community. We get questions answered, we celebrate wins, we commiserate when things are going wrong. And it's a pretty amazing organization to be a part of. Efrain: And why nonprofit? Well, we can do so many other things. You're in this space, especially nowadays, where it's a little panic mode, you know, but it looks like you maybe you're helping people pivot through this as well. Glennda Testone: We are. And I think, you know, a study just came out from the independent sector, which is a nonprofit that monitors sort of the the independent sector, the social sector, Efrain: Mm-hmm. Glennda Testone: the nonprofit sector. so this is not corporate, it's not private sector, it's it's social sector. And their report came out and said this is the seventh year they've done it, that I think it was 56 or 57 percent of Americans trust nonprofits. So much higher than the government, corporations, even philanthropy in the nonprofit sector, less trusted than like those organizations we think of as traditional nonprofits, like service organizations. So a lot of good work happening in this sector. And I'm a huge advocate, the founder of the lab, Joan Gary, huge advocate of the nonprofit sector and everything we can do. And it has never been more. Critical and more important, especially with the shrinking of government support of Efrain: Yeah. Glennda Testone: individuals, at least here in the US. And I would say the loosening of regulations of corporations here in the US. So it didn't that those survey results did not surprise me. And I continue to just be really proud to work in the nonprofit sector. Efrain: Always worked in the non profit sector or did you have the ability to do profit sector and realize it wasn't for you? Glennda Testone: As no, I it's been my whole career. I'm a lifer. so I started out. My mom's a social worker, my dad is a school administrator, my mom was assistant director in an African American community center in upstate New York when I was growing up for like 30-something years. My dad started as an earth science teacher, retired as a school superintendent. so I was raised in the vein of of service and giving back and helping people, and all of my paying jobs have have been in the nonprofit sector. The nonprofit leadership lab is actually a small for-profit company that we serve exclusively nonprofits and we advocate for nonprofits and the work that they can do. so it's my home. I've always been here. Efrain: Well Yeah, yeah, definitely a lot. How long have you been doing it? Glennda Testone: twenty six years it will be? I st Efrain: With his organization. Glennda Testone: yeah, twenty twenty six years in my career. I've been with the nonprofit Efrain: god. Glennda Testone: leadership lab for the last three years. Yeah. Efrain: How big is the organization? Glennda Testone: we're about 10 staff people, full-time, part-time, and we serve a community of about 5,000 nonprofit members right now across the globe. Efrain: And what does that look like? I sign up, you know that I do a non profit, Glennda Testone: Cool. Efrain: I sign up and what exactly am I giving or w what are those resources? Glennda Testone: Great question. So so if you sign up, Efrain, you you are given access to an online world 24-7 that you can check into anytime. And you've got videos that are how do you ask for money? How do you manage a board? How do you market your organization? You also have written tools and templates like what should your financial report look like when you're Presenting to the board, or your new board member, what do you need to know? How do you support your executive director? So we have a lot of different types of materials for people to be able to access to get the information they need so they don't have to flounder around or reinvent the wheel. And then the community itself is a private group where people can ask each other questions. Hey, this thing just came up for me. Has anybody else seen this? Is this is this a scam? Efrain: Mm-hmm. Glennda Testone: Is this real? Is this foundation really giving money? Has anybody else have experience with this CRM? You know, you and I were talking about CRMs before. So it's a lot of that, like executive directors, board members, senior staff at nonprofits being able to ask each other questions and just get really good advice and support. Efrain: And because I brought this up at the beginning of the conversation as well, is I seen your face come across my social the first time we spoke. Is how else do you get the word? I mean, social media, I think a lot of people go with that aspect. How else do you let people know? 'Cause I'm always a big believer, people don't know what they don't know. and this is cool community. I think it's so important in this space 'cause sometimes as Glennda Testone: Yeah. Efrain: nonprofit leaders, especially what's happening now with panic mode. We need that community. We need to remember the whys. We need Glennda Testone: my god. Efrain: to know what other folks are doing, how they're pivoting, because this is a time to truly pivot. How else do you get the word out? Glennda Testone: Yeah. I I love that question. I my job right before this job was I ran the LGBT community center in New York City for 14 years. So that was an in-person we gather community center, except for COVID when we had to shut down and go virtual for a little while. we were very much always coming together and and spreading the word among each other and and new folks. and this world is all virtual. So it it's interesting because I know people really well, people I work with, people who are members of the lab, and it's online. I do try and and have but really been trying in the last three years to get out to see people in person. So going to conferences, I'm going to the independent sector conference in October. This is leaders of nonprofits, philanthropies, government coming together to talk about how do we support each other, how do we solve these issues. I think that's really important. I had an opportunity to go to the Clinton Global Initiative earlier this week. So that was like a lot of global change makers in the same rooms talking about. What do we do about AI? What do we think about the environment and everything that's going on right now? So I do think that getting out from behind the screen and finding those opportunities to connect in person and to talk to people in person about what the lab is and what we can offer is really critical. So it's a it's a mix of both now for me. Efrain: I feel like I do a lot of virtual as well. Do you find it almost cringe sometimes that you go in person? You're like, I gotta learn how to do this again because I've done so much virtual Glennda Testone: I I so appreciate that that very honest admission in question. I do when I went to to CGI, I was like, when's the last time I did Efrain: Yeah. Glennda Testone: this? Yeah, you get used to a certain thing as as we were saying, and then you you let that go and do the thing I used to do every day for 14 years. Efrain: Yeah. Glennda Testone: I just don't do it the same way now. And it does take a minute to adjust. but I always find for me, I I love people. And so I really, I really it's a nice balance for me, you know, like when I get to meet people in person and have those direct conversation, it feels like such a gift and such a cool thing because so much of my world now is digital, is this. So yeah. Efrain: Absolutely. It used to be cringe for me. I and I started really doing more of this when I was working for the airline industry and we had to teach virtual during the pandemic. Like everything kind of went into that virtual space. And I'm like, Glennda Testone: Yes, yeah. Efrain: Teach people virtual? Like how Glennda Testone: Yeah. Efrain: how do you do that? Right. And you've had to really figure it out as you've gone. And I remember used to Glennda Testone: Mm-hmm. Efrain: start on my laptop. Now I have a whole production studio, I would say. And that's really how I got into the podcasting is I've learned over time Glennda Testone: Hold on Efrain: what worked, lighting. Like you gotta worry about lighting. Glennda Testone: How how many screens do you have, the friend? Efrain: I got really I got four screens. I got these three, and then I got a teleprompter screen here. Got this nice light. I build my own PC. I used to make fun of people like build the PC. I thought it was just a gamer thing. But then I end up building my Glennda Testone: Wow. Efrain: own PC, realizing I needed it for what I was doing. Streaming Glennda Testone: Wow. Efrain: now, I talked to you about the whole wrestling thing. So streaming. We just never Glennda Testone: Yeah. Efrain: know what happens when you pivot. And that's what's so important right now, Glennda Testone: Yeah. Efrain: more than anything, when we talk about nonprofits, is how are you pivoting at this time? Because it is not good to go into panic mode, and stay there, you know, for sure. Glennda Testone: No, no, it it's not. And and we we work with a lot of leaders and we we say the exact same thing. We try and tell them, look, I know the world is scary right now. I know there's a lot of unknown both in our lives and in our work. and there's a lot of like dual identity things going on where you have like LGBT people running an LGBT organization that serves LGBT Efrain: Mm-hmm. Glennda Testone: people and your people are targeted and you are targeted and it's it's just very scary. and so we really try and encourage people not to go into panic mode, not to live in a scarcity mindset, but to still imagine the possibility and focus on where you're going, what is your destination, what are you trying to achieve? And what does that look like for the next six months, the next year, the next five years? because it won't be static. it it will be up and down. And I think the leaders we've really seen succeeding in this challenging time are the ones who have a clear vision of what they are trying to achieve, where they're trying to go with their organization. And they are just pivoting and and and moving and flexible to kind of work around the obstacles that come up to continue to go in that direction. So It's it's so important not to panic. We're we're in this together and we can figure it out. we've done we've done a lot of hard things and and we can certainly do hard things. Efrain: I mean, the pandemic was one of them. Look how many of us survived through that, you know? Glennda Testone: Ex exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Efrain: where do you think a lot of non profits struggle? Glennda Testone: What we hear from our members every year across the board is funding. you know, you would almost guess it, you hear the word nonprofit, and you think, what's top of mind concern for nonprofit leaders? And this was my this is what I experienced as a nonprofit leader myself. Raising the money year after year is really challenging and can be exhausting. And because it's a nonprofit. model people approach it differently. I think. so that that's certainly something we hear about from folks all the time. You know, it's a constant like, we need this money. Okay. We asked this person, we got this money, but we still need this money over here. It's just trying to meet your budget. I think the other thing that we don't hear about, we don't talk about as much, but I see really glaringly in the work that I do with nonprofit leaders is that It's really lonely and isolating. it is a position where if you're a nonprofit leader, if you're a nonprofit CEO or executive director or president, you can't really be a hundred percent honest with your board. They're your bosses. You can't really be a hundred percent honest with your staff, they're your staff. it's such a it can be such a lonely and isolating position. And I think that is what's driving a lot of the burnout. And the panic that people are feeling in the sector is like it's always been hard. And it it's definitely hard right now. but I think it's it can feel almost impossible if you're trying to do it alone. So Efrain: Yeah. Glennda Testone: finding those networks of other people who are trying to do the same thing. When I was an ED, we had a small like in-person group that would meet in New York City and we would all sit down and chat with each other every other week. Now I run the nonprofit leadership lab. We have thousands of people that get online every day and say, Here's what's going on. How am I supposed to deal with this? and I really think that community is the antidote to some of the loneliness and the isolation that that we're seeing. Efrain: What do you think about data and technology? I mean, taking over an organization that is 30 years old, and I got four bins of a whole bunch of paperwork and then technology Glennda Testone: Ha ha. Efrain: where we were still sending letters to people's houses. So I kind of told Glennda Testone: Mm-hmm. Efrain: you I pivoted. We've done technology, we gone into social media and you guys are doing really well at it. But so many people have found out about the organization for the first time and thinking, my God, you guys are just building this, and it's like, No, we are just growing now with the times. Do you feel like that's also Glennda Testone: Yes. Efrain: a hindrance? Glennda Testone: gosh. That's such an interesting question. I, you know, especially going from like an in person community center where we did not have the latest technology. We didn't have you and I were talking about project management software. We didn't have that. We just emailed each other. You know, we had like Google Docs and things. to a a company that is completely virtual and online. It's it's really open. my eyes to the possibility of what you can do and how quickly you can do it. and I think like with any technology, as long as it's used to help the connections and the relationships you're trying to build, that's great. If it replaces those connections and relationships and that, like that's when I think it can be problematic. So I certainly see places where I'm like, a place like the center could use this kind of data or this kind of technology. And then I see at the nonprofit leadership lab, like, gosh, it would be so great if we could all just get in a room and sit down together, you know, for an hour and talk to each other. So there's there's value in both. And I'm really very aware and sensitive of dehumanization. Right now in our world and in our country. And so I think that's just something for all of us to keep an eye on and just make sure that whatever we do, whatever technology we use, whatever data that we really try and keep it human at the core level, because that is what's in most important. People are most important, people's lives are most important. So that's just something I always say whenever I'm asked about like data technology. AI like you know, it's like yes and we we gotta keep it human. Efrain: You guys using AI at all? Glennda Testone: we are in in the way I think a lot of people are, and we don't please don't over we're like weeks away from a formal policy. So don't ask me yet what the policy is. We are trying to figure it out along with everybody else. Efrain: Correct, yeah. Glennda Testone: but we do use AI to make repetitive tasks, administrative tasks like easier. And we do have a website where we use some AI to help people find what they need more quickly. we are not using it to replace our creativity and our humanity and our relationships, as I said before. But Efrain: Yeah. Glennda Testone: it is very much a priority and top of mind. A lot of nonprofit leaders reach out to us and say, What how are we supposed to be using this? Are we not? How do we use it well? How do we what it what? You know, we're Efrain: Yeah. Glennda Testone: We're not the nonprofit sector is not exempt from the rest of the world and trying to figure out where does this AI fit and how where is it good and where is it bad and and what where do we stand on it? So I would say the nonprofit sector is very much in that in that place. Efrain: And I think Keenan, the co host to the Heart and Hustle Podcast, has mentioned this is the worst that AI will ever be because it only gets better, right? But we also gotta figure Glennda Testone: Mm. Efrain: out what does that look like as we grow with it for sure. you know, what are those guardrails that are put on? you know, Glennda Testone: Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. Efrain: I actually just realized in my county that we're in as a school district, I always ask myself, like I go to the school and there's these guidance counselors or, you know, these resource teachers and I'm like You you really gotta write this 20 different times or a hundred different times for these students? Glennda Testone: yeah. Efrain: Let me show you. But it's actually blocked at the school level. And so then I'm like, well, what a disservice, because I can only Glennda Testone: interesting. Efrain: imagine the kids are utilizing this when they go home, right? So it Glennda Testone: Yeah. Efrain: it is very scary because the reason that I when I ask why are you guys not utilizing it, it was more of they're not educated around it. So how do we open that door if we can't really educate? And then now what I'm seeing, and this was about a year ago, now a whole fast forward a year later, they're actually going to start implementing them but they need the consent from the parents. So now we're going to have classes Glennda Testone: Mm. Efrain: that maybe maybe have these where going to be AI and these don't use AI, you know. But I think almost like the internet, the Glennda Testone: interesting. Efrain: doc the dot com boom, you know, it was something that people were scared of. People were scared of the internet, people were scared Glennda Testone: Yeah. Efrain: of social media. We had to find how it was a tool for us and how we leverage it, not so much how we Glennda Testone: Yes. Efrain: replace what we were doing. And so Very tricky times for sure when I think about where AI is going. Glennda Testone: Tricky times. I agree. I I would say the nonprofit leaders that I talk to are trying to thoughtfully navigate this and to use AI in the places where and then that we have some members, you know, we have like parks and we have like experiential children's programs who are like, we don't use it. And we explicitly like we we are trying to for kids or for human, like if The mission of a park is not bring your computer and come do stuff it's like come Efrain: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Glennda Testone: be in nature, be with other people. So different nonprofits are making different choices based on their missions and based on what they're trying to accomplish. And I I don't think we will ever lose the offline version of of relating to each other. and I do think the online AI fueled version also has something to offer. that we haven't maybe experienced before. So it's we we are in tricky times and exploratory times. what is out there and how can we do that? What is it? What makes sense? and the important thing, as you said, is like we get to decide. We should decide. We should not be led by technology or the handful of tech. gazillionaires who are fueling this stuff, we need to make these choices as human beings living in the room. Efrain: Yes, because a human to human interaction should never go away. I just Glennda Testone: Mm-hmm. Efrain: as much as I do use AI, there's nothing but having a real conversation with a real person. Right. Glennda Testone: Totally. Which is why things like this are so great, you know. Efrain: Yeah. I love it. Glennda Testone: yeah. Efrain: Where do you guys see yourself when it comes to growth? I can imagine every organization wants to see themselves at the next level. Have you thought Glennda Testone: Mm. Efrain: about as sitting in that seat? You got to think about the the future. Have you thought about that? Glennda Testone: I think about that every day. I think my my goal right now in sort of the shorter term, like the next few years, is how do we build up our base in a non-digital way? Like how do we the question you started with, how do we reach people not through digital advertising? Because that's not cheap. That's actually expensive. And you're not getting everybody by doing that. So We're doing things like partnering with foundations to support their grantees and get them connected to the support and leadership development of the lab. doing things like thinking about how we can further support leaders, like coaching, one-on-one coaching. You know, a lot of I think one of the things AI has done is that people can get answers to questions very quickly. They're not necessarily The right answers or the the complete answers. And so the, you know, the the like what you need to do, you can put into Claude or put in wherever and get an answer. But how do you actually do that with human beings? That I don't think can be I don't think an agent can always answer that. That's Efrain: Yeah. Glennda Testone: where I think a a human being. Or you know, someone who's been through it can say, well, this is how you navigate it with your board and your senior staff and how how you actually accomplish this thing that you're trying to do. Efrain: I do love social. I do feel that when we come to different communication levels, something like email, do you think it is a good thing or should we be pivot pivoting from that? 'Cause like nowadays everyone gets into the emails and it's almost becomes over exaggerated now. Like you don't even go to your emails anymore. We're probably leaning maybe toward SMS. Like where's your thoughts on just communication in general? 'Cause we got so many stories Glennda Testone: Such a good question. Efrain: that need to be amplified. When we talk about these nonprofits, we have stories that need to be told to our donors, to our supporters, to people that really need Glennda Testone: Yeah. Yeah. Efrain: the resources. And I don't know that email has really been beneficial for a lot of these organizations. Glennda Testone: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I cannot deny that with the way you're talking about email is what I see. You know, it used to be that just my personal email like was out of control with all these messages I was never gonna file and never gonna get through. but it it's now everywhere. It just seems like we are bombarded with emails and That can't be good in terms of like if you're trying to break through with a message or a story or something really important that you have to tell people. our perspective is is really diversification is helpful. You know, I always think about there was one donor at the center who I never met, I never spoke to every year, and we stopped like printing an annual report. Because those things are really expensive to design. Efrain: Mm-hmm. Glennda Testone: They take a lot of time. They, if you print them, they can be really expensive. And we started doing it digitally. We would create an annual report online and send it to people. But there was this one guy, I had to print the annual report and send it to him in the mail. And he would send a $10,000 check, which was worth it to us, you know? So, Efrain: Yeah, for sure. Paid itself. Glennda Testone: so like. I th I always think about like not everybody is doing any one thing, you know. So you have to think about like how do you reach people and is it worth it? I mean, we're we're certainly doing more SMS, we're doing more like you know, website based or social media based communications. but I do think it's important to remember that Not everybody's on the same page around this stuff. So having a diversity of how you communicate something, I think, helps ensure that you're really reaching people. and think Efrain: Mm-hmm. Glennda Testone: about who you want to reach. Like if you I wanted to reach this guy, I had to send him a piece of paper in the mail. there are some people where that would be the worst possible way to try and reach them. So Think it's really about like understanding your audience. What are they like? We do an annual survey every year of all our members. What do you like? What do you need? What how do you want it delivered? Do you want a template? Do you want a video? Do you want a podcast? Do you, you know, and and our folks tell us. That's probably the best way to find out how do your people want to be communicated with is to ask them. How do you want to be communicated with? Efrain: Yeah. And goes back to the data point. If you don't have the data to even know, then how the heck are you making those pivots and decisions? You're just guessing. Yeah. What Glennda Testone: You're just guessing. Yeah, you're you're just guessing. Efrain: when someone comes and signs up, I guess what are the three things you find yourselves telling people time and time again? So that nonprofit leader that hasn't signed up yet, speak to that person. Glennda Testone: I would say these jobs can be brutal and they can be magical. so three things. Number one, don't try and do it alone. Nobody can do it alone. You gotta find your people, you gotta find your community, your your means of support for yourself to be able to do this work. Number two, think sustainably. short-term thinking. How can you get that one donor to give that one gift? You're gonna have to go back next year and do the exact same thing. Is there a way this person could give maybe a lesser amount, but over the next three years? So, you know, you don't have to come back every time and and ask. I think sustainability is is huge right now because there are limited resources, the climate is really challenging. So figuring out how you can do things once and have them keep feeding you versus doing them again and again is really important for the long term success of any nonprofit or any nonprofit leader. And then I guess the third thing would just be I haven't crafted this artfully, but like don't let them, don't let the haters get you down. You know, like there are forces out there that are trying to discourage you, that are saying you're not gonna be able to do this, that are saying, it's too hard, it's too much. Nobody who ever succeeded listened to those voices. You've got to listen to the voices that are saying, this is really important. You gotta do this. Who else is gonna do it? You need to move forward. Like, and I I just always think that that sometimes those things are not unintentional. Like there are intentionally forces out there that are saying, don't. move forward and try and do this amazing thing you you want to do. and so I always think about it's like a little bit of a battle, like, okay, I'm not listening to them. I'm listening to my people who I care about, who want the world to be a better place for everyone, not just for some. and that's the direction I move in. Efrain: I love it. I mean, we really started talking about that offline before we even hit record today because I faced those same challenges. Taking on this leaders you know, leadership, it was everyone that felt that we weren't going to be able to do this and that we couldn't pivot it, that we couldn't this is the way that it used to be, and start to doubt Glennda Testone: Yeah. Efrain: the new ways. And it's like you come you you already came with this leadership for a reason. They they've called upon you for a reason, and sometimes Again, it's not that they truly mean bad. It's just that's just the one mindset that they have at the time. And we sometimes Glennda Testone: Yes, yes. Efrain: just have to prove them wrong. Sometimes we have to just Glennda Testone: Yeah. Yeah. Efrain: show that proof of concept. I'm in a place now where Glennda Testone: Yeah. Efrain: it is completely different of what it was done, this event particular. And I have to remind myself when this is done, so many people would come back and say, Wow, this is really nice. How do we become a part of it? Because a lot of people can't see the vision. It was never their vision to see to begin with, right? It was the vision that was implemented in us, to see a organization move forward. So hundred percent, I love that last one. The noises get so loud. How do you quiet Glennda Testone: They get so loud. Efrain: the noise? Glennda Testone: Quiet the negative noises. Go back to that first one and go to your people and your community and really get strength from them about like, no, you're dude, you're totally meant to do this. You need to do this. This is really important. People are gonna really gonna appreciate it. and that's kind of the the space to try and stay in because there's just so much that can knock us out of that space. Efrain: And to start off, just go ahead and sign up to nonprofit leadership lab dot com, right? Wh where else could they stay tapped in, Glenda? Where else can people find the information? 'Cause it is take a community. Glennda Testone: Yeah, thank you. We are on LinkedIn, we are on Instagram, Facebook, we are everywhere, but you can definitely go visit us on the web. we are we are eager to support nonprofit leaders who are trying to make the world a better place. So we would love to have you come join us. Efrain: Thank you so much for your time for all your input, all your knowledge, and what you're doing for the nonprofit space, because it is an underrated space for sure. And there are so many great talents Glennda Testone: Yes. Thank you. Efrain: and great missions and great stories happening out there. So you're definitely giving a voice and giving building that community. Community is so important. So we thank you for your time. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. Glennda Testone: So important. Yeah, thank you. It was a pleasure. Any time. Efrain: If you guys are still watching, make sure you guys do like, subscribe, and comment. I'm Efrain. This has been Glenda, and we'll catch you on the next one. Ladies. Glennda Testone: Bye.