Latest / Babes, how did you get here / Why Maddie Refuses to Return Home: The Truth About Expat Life in Thailand

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Why Maddie Refuses to Return Home: The Truth About Expat Life in Thailand · Babes, how did you get here

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  Music
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  I was really afraid of going back and then being stuck in the US.
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  Honestly, because I was like, if I get stuck there, I'm going to get pulled back into the corporate world
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  and find a job and just get roped into this thing that I was trying to take a break from.
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  And they closed all the borders and I ended up being stuck in Thailand for two years
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  while it was completely empty.
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  And in that time, I really started to change my perspective and my mindset about what I wanted to do with my life.
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  I first came across Maddie Hart, better known as Yajai in Thai, online when she was educating us with a video
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  about how not to be an obnoxious tourist here in Thailand.
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  She gave us some tips that I think some were quite obvious, like don't wear a string bikini when you're going shopping,
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  but some less obvious things, like not to use our feet to close the door because here in Thailand,
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  feet are considered the dirtiest part of the body whilst our heads are the most sacred.
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  I loved your direct approach.
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  I was so impressed that you can speak Thai and I'm super excited for our conversation today.
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  I'm hoping that we're going to cover things like the struggles about living abroad, particularly with grief
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  when we spoke before that really resonated with me.
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  But before we get to all of that, babes, how did you get here?
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  My journey has been quite an interesting one to say the least.
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  I came to Thailand for what I thought was going to be one year when I graduated university.
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  I was feeling a bit confused about what I wanted to do with my life.
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  I thought I wanted to be a physical therapist.
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  But after I started job shadowing, I realized that was not for me.
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  So I needed just some time and space to think.
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  And I thought maybe I'll try out teaching for a year.
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  I'll move to another country, see how I like it.
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  Maybe I'll come back to the U.S., do grad school, start my career after that.
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  So take it back. You're in the U.S. what part?
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  Minnesota.
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  Okay.
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  And you specifically chose Thailand?
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  No, it was kind of just by chance.
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  I knew I wanted to be in Asia just because I wanted a completely different cultural experience.
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  And I looked at several countries.
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  I was looking at Indonesia, Vietnam, South Korea, Japan.
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  But I had to start in October because I had some other commitments to follow through on.
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  And so Thailand was the only country that was going to allow an October intake.
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  So I just chose Thailand I had never been here before.
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  And yeah, so I ended up here in 2019 in October.
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  Okay.
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  And then only four months after that was the pandemic.
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  Yes.
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  And so I'm in Thailand.
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  Only four months in.
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  I still really don't speak the language.
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  I'm not very familiar with my community and everything yet.
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  I'm still kind of building those things.
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  And they announce that they're going to close all the borders.
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  Right.
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  Like we're closing the borders.
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  All flights are going to be canceled.
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  You can leave now.
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  Or you'll be stuck here.
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  Sure.
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  And we don't know when you'll be able to leave.
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  Right.
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  And so of course all my family is saying like,
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  I'm a believer.
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  I'm a believer.
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  I don't know.
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  We don't know.
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  Like we can all be dead.
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  I know you're here.
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  Like you have to come home.
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  That's like.
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  Okay.
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  Okay, babes.
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  Real talk.
• 3:23
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• 3:24
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• 3:27
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• 3:32
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• 3:38
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• 3:42
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• 3:48
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• 3:50
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• 3:54
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• 3:59
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  If I leave now, I don't know that I'll come back and I don't want to give up this experience
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  and this opportunity.
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  I was really afraid of going back and then being stuck in the US.
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  Sure.
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  Because if I get stuck there, I'm going to get pulled back into the corporate world and find a job
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  and just get roped into this thing that I was trying to take a break from.
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  And so I decided to stay.
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  My parents freaked out and they were really nervous.
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  I was nervous because I didn't know what was going to happen.
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  But I decided to stay.
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  So they closed all the borders and I ended up being stuck in Thailand for two years while it was completely empty.
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  And in that time, I really started to change my perspective and my mindset about what I wanted to do with my life.
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  I think when you grow into us, they don't really give you the option or present the option of moving abroad and living in another country.
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  You know, everyone kind of follows at least where I'm from, the same routine.
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  It's high school university.
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  Get a job, get married, have kids, buy a house, do that.
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  And that's someone does some variation of that in some capacity.
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  But no one talks about moving abroad, getting a job somewhere else, creating the life that you want to live,
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  because there's only that one path to follow.
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  And did you always feel that the traditional path wasn't for you or was it coming to Thailand that that really cemented that feeling?
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  I actually thought that I wanted that path.
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  I always thought like, okay, great, I'm going to have a house and a family and hope that I love the American dream.
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  So to speak.
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  And then when I came to Thailand, I saw and I met so many interesting people who were living all sorts of interesting lives.
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  You know, they had come from their home countries, they had created a life here or they were traveling and working around the world.
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  And I just started to think differently about what my life could look like.
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  I just started to realize like, well, there's so many different possibilities out there.
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  And I really have the ability to choose what I want to do.
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  I don't have to follow this path that everyone else is on.
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  So when did the one-year plan become, because right now we're on like four years, right?
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  Going on six years now, when did the one-year plan transition into something more long-term?
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  So I think during that two-year period where I was kind of stuck here, I started to play with the idea of staying longer than one year.
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  And I still wasn't thinking it was going to be a really long-term thing.
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  I always had it in my mind that I would be going back.
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  Sure.
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  But after two years, I started to think, maybe I'm just going to look for another job in Thailand, transitions, try living in a new place,
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  something moved from Wahin, where I was originally living, which is just south of Bangkok, to Khosa Mui, the island that I live on now.
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  Why did you choose Khosa Mui?
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  I was just offered a really cool job.
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  I was a swimming teacher at an international school, and I thought it sounded like a dream.
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  So I went there, accepted that job.
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  And so I lived in Samui that was going into my third year.
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  And after living there and making some really great friends, I just started to feel like I belonged in Thailand.
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  And I started to feel my community growing and feeling a sense of belonging.
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  And I'd say after about three and a half to four years, I really made the conscious decision to kind of put roots down here.
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  I moved into a house that I really loved.
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  I furnished it.
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  You know, I invested in some furniture.
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  Commitment.
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  Yeah, I was committing.
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  Because before it was like, if I can't fit it in a suitcase, it's not mine.
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  You know, I don't want it.
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  Sure.
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  Because I want to be able to pack up and leave.
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  Yes.
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  But I think when you don't allow yourself to be fully present and you don't fully commit to being in a place, you can't build the types of communities that make you feel at home.
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  So when you came, did you start learning Thai upon arrival, or did you have some experience before you arrived?
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  I didn't start until I came here.
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  Really?
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  And do you think that that has really helped you build a sense of community?
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  Definitely, yes.
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  I think the community that I'm referring to is a lot of expat friends or immigrant friends.
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  Sure.
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  That means the word expat for white people.
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  We're all immigrants.
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  Just make that clear.
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  But yeah, learning Thai has definitely made me feel more comfortable living here and has definitely given me the confidence to navigate a life here without feeling like I need extra support or help.
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  And I think that definitely makes me want to stay longer term.
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  Sure.
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  You know, being able to even just order my own food, go to the doctor, rent a car, buy a bike or something.
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  I feel like I can get quite a good grasp of languages.
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  Babes, all I have is that thank you.
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  A little hello.
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  I've just learned goodbye today.
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  So the idea that you aren't being able to speak and just carry out day-to-day activities in a language that isn't exactly easy is incredible to me.
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  Thank you.
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  It's not, I don't know.
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  I thought it would be more difficult to learn, but I think I just really spending time with Thai people and spending time with Thai friends working in a Thai school.
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  It really all just, you know, it's not that hard to pick up when you're constantly surrounded by it and you're listening.
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  Sure.
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  I think a lot of people because they don't need to learn Thai to live here.
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  They don't make an effort.
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  It's really easy to pick up if you are consciously like surrounding yourself with the language, listening to the language, trying to understand what's being said.
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  Do you think that you're received differently because you've made that effort and do you experience Thailand differently?
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  Because the lady told me her mom is French, her dad is English, so she speaks both languages.
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  And she was explaining that in French, she feels more assertive.
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  She feels almost like her personality is a bit more bold.
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  Oh my god, that's super interesting that you having different language abilities kind of changes your personal when speaking that language.
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  Do you think when you speak Thai, for example, is Maddie a different Maddie than her English speaking self?
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  Absolutely.
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  I think so.
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  I think I'm trying to merge those two as I learn more language and get more confident.
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  I think Thai speaking Maddie is much more polite and quiet and just like not as bold.
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  I think in English, I'm a little bit more of a spitfire.
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  I can crack jokes and kind of be a little bit more, I don't know, just bold and funny.
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  So in Thai, I'm still working on getting to the level of being able to make people laugh and things like that.
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  So I'm different a little bit in that way, but it does definitely change the way I experience the country.
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  First of all, I just unlocked so many new things that there's not necessarily translations for.
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  So many different foods that I never would have known because they don't put them on an English menu.
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  I've picked up on little cultural nuances and things that is hard to translate, but it's just like a words that exist in Thai that are deeply rooted in the culture.
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  And also, yeah, people treat you differently when you can speak the language.
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  There's definitely a assumption that many Thai people make when they see you walk into a room as a white girl.
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  They're just like, okay, another tourist, another foreigner, whatever.
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  And they're always polite, but they're never, how do I say?
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  In some way, there's so many tourists that come through regularly.
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  They're there for two days, then you get the next set.
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  And I think sometimes they just kind of like start to write them off.
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  It's like, okay, whatever, they're here for two days, they're gone.
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  But when I walk into a room and I order my food entire, I ask them a question in Thai.
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  They just, their face is light up.
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  They smile so big, there's so much more keen to have conversation with me or share food with me or just things like that, because they see and appreciate the effort that I've made to understand their culture and learn the language.
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  And I think that totally changes the way that I get to experience Thailand.
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  When you arrived, was there anything in particular that was a serious culture shock that you didn't expect?
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  I was actually really lucky, I would say no.
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  So when I was in university, at the very end of my university studies, I had the opportunity to study abroad in Bali.
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  Okay.
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  And so I was studying kind of cross-cultural happiness and how we define happiness in the U.S. compared to how the Balinese culture defines happiness, which is really, really interesting.
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  And this is part of my leadership minor at the University of Minnesota, which I absolutely loved.
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  But before we were even allowed to go on this course, we got a huge crash course on Balinese culture.
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  So we learned all about Balinese Hinduism and the religion.
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  We learned about the family life, we learned about how to dress, how to act, how to eat, how to use the toilet.
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  Like all of these things that you don't necessarily think you'd need instructions.
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  But they were like, eat with your right hand, they eat with their hands.
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  Like your left hand is used to clean yourself up to use the toilet, right hand is used for eating and shaking hands and things like that.
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  And talked about modesty, talked about using the squat toilet and how to take a bucket shower.
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  Like all of these things that I think would have been a culture shock, but because I learned that before I went, it was a lot easier for me to adjust.
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  So then I think I applied that knowledge and that skill set of researching a culture before I arrived, before I came to Thailand.
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  I think one of the things that strikes me about you, and I hope I'm not causing any offense.
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  But the average American tourist that I have come across, and maybe this is just in the context of all inclusive hotels in Jamaica, they still will eat pizza, you know, the buffet.
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  They're not going to go to like the local section of the buffet.
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  They still want almost like America, but in another country.
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  And so when I first came across your profile online, and you are like the complete opposite of that, you are all about really respecting where you are and doing your due diligence to educate yourself as a tourist.
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  And in a refreshing way, putting the responsibility on the tourist rather than having the expectation that wherever you arrive to, in this case, Thailand is going to like adapt to you.
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  And that isn't what I think of when I think of Americans.
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  I wonder is that something that you've always had in you in terms of being respectful of those around you and not expecting the world to kind of bend to you, but you really finding your place wherever you choose to reside?
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  I think yes and no.
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  I was never much of a traveler growing up. I grew up in a small town in the Midwest. My whole family lives on the same street.
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  My dad was born on that street and he lives on that street to this day, you know, like so we were kind of home bodies. And so I never had to do any of that adapting because it was just like my world always existed as it did.
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  And there wasn't a lot of change in variety, but I think what I went to university and I just started to see much more diverse communities and diverse stories and ways of living.
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  I was intrigued by them and I was, yeah, I just wanted to be involved in something different. And so it wasn't like I was trying to force the world to adapt to me because I didn't want to repeat the same things.
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  I wanted to be in a different space surrounded by different food and different practices and different clothing and I just I love learning about it and I love seeing how different people and different families and different cultures move through life.
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  And so when you say that your family lives in the same place, the first thing that strikes me is what is the response when you say guys I'm not just staying in Thailand for a year, but now this is my home. How are they receiving this news?
• 14:54
  It's been a bit of a mixed bag review, I would say. I think when I first told my parents I was moving to Thailand. I remember I phone called them. I was at my university, I was at work one morning frantically researching places to move abroad and I was like I'm moving to Thailand.
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  And they were like okay, okay, sure. And then I think, you know, they thought it was going to be a year and then one year turned into two. And at first, I think my parents, especially my mom was really devastated to hear just that I was going to be living on the other side of the world.
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  It's, you know, the time difference is 12 hours. It's complete opposite.
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  Are you an only child?
• 15:31
  No, I'm the oldest of three.
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  All this is going.
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  All this is just buying it.
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  And then my sister's like oh, you went across the world, I can go somewhere else. She's like bye.
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  So my mom's like clinging to my younger brother like please stay here.
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  But once she came to visit me here and saw my life and my friends and my community and how beautiful Thailand is and how much, you know, I loved showing her around and showing her the food in the culture.
• 15:57
  I think she was like, you know what, you're living your best life. You're so happy. You look great. You feel great. Like you're so confident and comfortable.
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  She's just happy to see me like that. And so I think she's been a lot more accepting.
• 16:09
  Sure.
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  And that's, I think that the same story with a lot of my family and friends. And I think it's hard for them. And it's hard for me to be that far away.
• 16:16
  But it comes at the cost of living here and having this life that I just feel like completely like myself.
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  Like I have balance. Like I'm happy. I'm healthy. I can do everything that I'd like to do. And I'm not stressed or struggling unnecessarily.
• 16:29
  I always say everything in life has an opportunity cost, right? And you just have to weigh up.
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  Absolutely.
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  Which we're going to choose.
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  What do you think is the major misconception about your life here in Thailand?
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  I think people think that I'm just on holiday here. They assume because I live in a holiday destination.
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  Sure.
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  That I'm just always kind of on vacation. Right.
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  And people will not many people have come to visit me. But when they do come to visit me, they're like, I'm going to be here for these two weeks.
• 16:56
  Like we can just travel around together. And I'm like, OK, sweetheart, I have a job.
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  And I have responsibilities that also I don't have unlimited money. I can't just, you know, you're coming here on your holiday.
• 17:07
  But I'm not trying to go around and spend all this money every day because like I budget, I have a limited amount of resources here.
• 17:14
  So I think that's a huge misconception for most people that I actually have a real life here. It's hard for them to grasp.
• 17:21
  And sometimes when I go home, I get the question of like, when are you going to come home and start your real life?
• 17:26
  OK.
• 17:27
  Like, OK, this is a cute, you know, right. This is a cute, sabbatical, cute little charade. But when are you going to come home and have a real life?
• 17:34
  And I'm like, what do you mean by that? Like, what is a real life? Does having a house and a car and a job and a gym membership and insurance policy?
• 17:42
  Like a doctor and a dentist and all these things that I'm like, that feels very real to me. Yeah, it feels like a real life.
• 17:48
  I don't know what you mean by coming home and starting a real life. No, I think they just have this one-sided perception of what life looks like, especially in America.
• 17:58
  Where, like I said, you're only kind of presented with one path. And so to them, if you're not pursuing this path to like the white picket fence house and the retirement policy and the 401k and whatever, they're like,
• 18:11
  it doesn't calculate in the mind. Just confused, you know what I mean?
• 18:16
  Yeah.
• 18:17
  And being so far away, right, because you were telling me it takes like four flights to get home and I'm like, wow.
• 18:24
  For flights and over $1,000.
• 18:27
  Could you not show them somewhere close up?
• 18:32
  I certainly could have. I think it was just like falling in love with Thailand. I couldn't imagine going anywhere else.
• 18:39
  Now, when I had first moved here, I was like, oh, maybe I'll do a year in Thailand and a year in Japan and a year in South Korea.
• 18:46
  I kind of had this idea that I would just travel around a bit and see some of the world.
• 18:49
  But after I fell in love with Thailand and just invested so much here, it's really hard for me to imagine going anywhere else.
• 18:57
  So someone who's never been here, how would you describe that like strong emotion and that strong feeling that this is home?
• 19:06
  I think it just comes with a feeling of belonging and wanting to be here in the US whenever I would travel.
• 19:13
  Whenever it was time to go back home, I was always kind of filled with this feeling of dread.
• 19:17
  I don't want to go back. I don't want to go back to my job or to my routine or whatever. I just want to stay on this place.
• 19:23
  But now when I travel, wherever I'm going, like all I want to do is come back.
• 19:27
  What's the thing they know most when you're traveling away from Thailand?
• 19:32
  I just miss the ease and the balance of the life. I think everything for me here is so accessible.
• 19:37
  It's really easy for me to have time to do all the things that I want. I can exercise. I can get clean and healthy food.
• 19:43
  I can cook. I can spend time with friends. I can have time to work without feeling stressed.
• 19:48
  I just love my little routines and my systems that I have set up here.
• 19:51
  I find that when I was living in the US, I was working overtime while being a student.
• 19:56
  I was barely able to have time to cook meals. I was eating at weird times of the day and working in every spare minute.
• 20:04
  I think just having routines that feel good and that flow is what I miss the most.
• 20:09
  Do you think if there wasn't COVID, you wouldn't have stayed?
• 20:14
  I don't think I would still be here if COVID hadn't happened.
• 20:17
  A lot of people that I've been speaking to, I mean, it's easy to think, okay, COVID happened and then life has continued.
• 20:23
  But for so many people, COVID has really changed their mindset and changed how they've seen the world and therefore affected their big moves.
• 20:32
  I think so. I think it really forced people to stop and slow down and assess what they truly want to do and what they like to do.
• 20:41
  It really gave people a lot of time to explore hobbies and other interests and get creative with how they work and how they live because we were never faced with the time like that where we had to stay home or we had to have free time.
• 20:54
  But when job places were being like, okay, we're going online or we're just not working right now because we can't come into the office before we're like, okay, I'm getting paid to have free time now.
• 21:05
  Like, what does this look like? How do I spend my free time?
• 21:07
  Sure.
• 21:08
  And that, I think for me, allowed me to be a lot more creative about how I spend my time and how the hobbies I pursue, the people that I spend time with and things like that.
• 21:17
  You're doing so much and I think some people still think that Thailand is the destination where either you're figuring out your life or you're just kind of like digital nomad, you know, just constantly looking out onto beautiful sunsets.
• 21:30
  And when I speak to you, I feel like you have been able to really establish yourself here.
• 21:36
  For someone who is thinking, how do they make that move to Thailand?
• 21:41
  What is your advice to them in terms of building a life, not just a little stop point until you go off to the next destination?
• 21:49
  For Thailand specifically, it can be a little bit tricky because to stay here long term, you do have to sort out the right visas and things.
• 21:57
  Personally think that finding a job here, whatever that looks like for the individual, is the best route to go because then you get assistance with the visas and the work permits and you're, you know, ingrained a little bit more in Thai society and you're kind of giving back to this country that you're also taking from.
• 22:12
  I think something that we're going to hear a lot about in the coming years is kind of like modern day colonization because there is so many people that are taking their online jobs and their digital nomad life and they're like, I'm just going to plant myself in this country that my dollar is going to go farther or my euro, my pounds are going to go farther and live, you know, kind of like royalty.
• 22:33
  I'm going to have my nice condo and a little sunset to my Instagram mobile cafes and then they start selling that life to other people and they don't realize how they're driving up the prices for the local populations, how they are, you know, changing what's going on in the country here and I think that that is something that we need to be aware of and we need to be check our privilege in a way, you know.
• 22:57
  And I think coming here and doing a job that's also serving people in Thailand and like the Thai communities is really important and also living in a way that kind of aligns with the Thai way of life.
• 23:08
  Sure, you know, it's not of course it's wonderful to be able to come here and afford a beautiful villa and you know like to travel on these luxurious things but that's not how type people are living and when you come here and expect that lifestyle and demand that type of business it's driving up the prices and the cost of living for everyone else and while you're coming here with the money like the Thai salaries are not increasing at the same rate.
• 23:32
  So how does one come and live consciously in a way that doesn't have those adverse effects in the same magnitude I appreciate that you're always going to have some.
• 23:41
  But how does someone who's like actually I don't want to be that version of an expat or immigrant how do we do that more consciously.
• 23:49
  That's a really good question. I don't know if I have the answer to that but I think for me it looks like living within my mains but also like living modestly and not trying to.
• 24:01
  For me it's not about like I don't want to sell some lifestyle to people I don't want to put my life on Instagram or on social media as this dream paradise reality without also talking about the realities and some of the real struggles and challenges of being here because I think that when people only display the good stuff and they make it look like this big glamorous life.
• 24:25
  Yeah it draws in large crowds of people and oftentimes the wrong crowds of people and then that's when we start to see problems in lots of different areas you see more people being disrespectful.
• 24:35
  Social media has a way of showing us worlds that we would have never seen otherwise and I say get really drawn in but then in those lovely useful authentic moments that you create we also get to learn things that we didn't even know we were going to learn.
• 24:51
  What would you say are some of the struggles so we completely appreciate that living here has given you a piece of mind I think it's fair to say and giving you the space to kind of achieve that work life balance which is a buzz word that goes around so much now.
• 25:06
  What are some of the things these things might not necessarily be struggles directly associated with Thailand but just in terms of living so far away from your comfort zone and I presume that in the beginning you would have had some teething pains if you could kind of like talk me through for people are thinking about making a big leap what would be the thing that you would say to them to just be wary cautious of or just honest about okay yeah.
• 25:32
  There's a few things I can think of I think the first thing that you have to go through is feelings of isolation and loneliness especially making it by yourself I came at the age of 21 I was completely by myself I didn't know anyone here.
• 25:47
  And you feel really really lonely I mean it's very isolating when you show up in a place and you don't speak the language you're unfamiliar with the geography and just how the world works here and to not have anyone to kind of turn to for help and support it can be really isolating.
• 26:04
  And when you come from your home country or wherever you're coming from where you had a sense of community often times that community is kind of curated for you know if you're in school you're surrounded by classmates if you're in a job you're kind of surrounded by colleagues or you have friends and family close by you have these communities kind of already built in and when you come to a foreign country and try to start a life here you have to build that from scratch.
• 26:27
  And I think a lot of people think that people just happen naturally they think like oh I'll meet friends and it'll be fine but it's actually really really hard even in Thailand.
• 26:36
  I also had the image there are so many people here other countries that you kind of just go have coffee and then you leave with 10 friends.
• 26:42
  Yeah they know just like be besties for life but like to find like real quality people that you connect with and you feel seen by and then you can trust and you can open up with that takes a lot of conscious effort and time.
• 26:55
  And you're also not going to meet those people right away you know I've been through so many seasons of friends where you know we met and we had fun together but we just didn't quite vibe the way that I want to thank you.
• 27:07
  Oh sorry.
• 27:09
  Meal.
• 27:10
  That's what they say.
• 27:11
  Something drops.
• 27:12
  I'm thinking back to when I went to school in the States I went to college in New York.
• 27:16
  Okay.
• 27:17
  And I had this one French was from Trinidad and we really vibed.
• 27:21
  And then I realized once into it that she was really my friend because we were both in a foreign country if that makes sense.
• 27:28
  So like I realized I was compromising some of the things that were really important to me because I was out of my zone and I was so grateful to have someone also from the Caribbean that we could like be aligned in so many ways that I was like compromising on my core values.
• 27:44
  And once later I realized there was no way for our friendship to really flourish because those core things weren't there.
• 27:49
  And if we had been in Jamaica together we would never have been friends.
• 27:52
  You know what I mean?
• 27:53
  Did you have any of those relationships where kind of both being out of water is what brought you together.
• 27:58
  Absolutely.
• 27:59
  Absolutely.
• 28:00
  We do this.
• 28:01
  Yeah.
• 28:02
  And it happens in like you said if I would have met them in my home country.
• 28:05
  Yeah.
• 28:06
  Not a chance.
• 28:07
  But because we're here and we have this kind of shared one of connection that we're both in a foreign place and we don't know anyone.
• 28:12
  We spent time together and it was like okay we can connect around that.
• 28:15
  Sure.
• 28:16
  And I think those relationships there's a time and a place for them but they kind of naturally have an ending as well.
• 28:20
  So after now being here for almost six years I have found the most incredible community and I've created the most incredible community in Samooia.
• 28:29
  So many amazing girlfriends and guy friends as well but like really a strong community of women that are all just so inspiring and so badass.
• 28:38
  Like they're all running their own businesses or they've created these really beautiful products or services or things or just lives that I really admire.
• 28:46
  And they're also fun and supportive and loving and open and really in touch like they value their health.
• 28:52
  They value emotional integrity and just like all these things that are important to me but that took so much effort to create.
• 28:59
  And I think when people are thinking about moving here they need to accept that that's going to be a struggle and it's going to take time.
• 29:05
  Yeah.
• 29:06
  When would you say your kind of honeymoon period?
• 29:08
  Let's call it that you know the going from oh this is all new and fresh to oh shit this is no longer holiday.
• 29:15
  This is like life now.
• 29:16
  What would you say was your your timeline?
• 29:20
  It's a bit difficult. I think it took me about a year in each location.
• 29:25
  So I was in Hawaii for a while and then I was in Samooia.
• 29:28
  Yeah.
• 29:29
  And I think in each one of those it takes about a year to kind of let the rose colored glasses come off because everything's just new and exciting.
• 29:34
  And then you're sitting there like okay what am I doing?
• 29:37
  And I'm like who are my friends? How am I spending my time?
• 29:39
  Like what am I trying to create for myself here?
• 29:41
  Because yeah it takes about a year to feel like you belong somewhere like you have a home somewhere.
• 29:46
  Was there any time during that year of getting settled that you thought should I pack up my bags and go home?
• 29:55
  There were definitely a few times where I wanted to go home like just to visit because I needed to reset.
• 30:03
  I think I was just getting to the point where I was like I'm not happy with my job or you know I had a period where a lot of my friends moved away at the same time.
• 30:10
  And so like this great community that I had made in Wahin suddenly just disappeared almost overnight within the same month.
• 30:16
  Five of my friends moved to other places and it was just like I'm alone here like what do I have and other than the person I was dating at the time like I had no community.
• 30:25
  So then I was just like I went from having this great group of friends and I spent every day with to no one and then it was like I just want to hug my mom like I just want to see my friends at home.
• 30:34
  But then another interesting thing is every time you go back like the relationships that you left are no longer the same and I think that's also something really difficult.
• 30:44
  I was keeping in touch with because like for example the time difference alone is a headache.
• 30:51
  But how do you maintain or do you have to accept that you can't maintain your relationships in the same way from home.
• 30:58
  You do have to accept that you'll never be able to maintain them all in the same capacity and I think it really depends on the person.
• 31:05
  I call my mom and my parents every week I keep in touch with my sister and you know that's a bond that I don't think I'll ever lose.
• 31:12
  And there's definitely friends that also feel the same it's like we don't have to stay in touch to know that our friendship is always going to be strong and when we are together we'll enjoy the time but we're not you know there's no resentment or weird feelings.
• 31:23
  But there definitely is friends that do want to be kept in touch with and they take it personally when you don't talk to them regularly and also you just miss things you know when you're not there for someone's big celebrations or the big struggles in their life
• 31:38
  and you can't support them through those moments like that's what friends are for right and when you can't be that friend for them anymore it kind of changes your relationship dynamics.
• 31:45
  Has there been anything that you've missed like a big event that you've missed that you like damn I was shows there.
• 31:51
  I've just I missed friends going through difficult breakups I missed friends going through their parents divorcing I've missed friends losing parents or like loved ones.
• 32:00
  And if I was there I would have been in my car and you know at their door there to comfort them there to sit with them there to hold space for those things.
• 32:08
  And because I'm just on the other side of the world I can't be attentive to all of those realities and in the same way like my friends at home can't be attentive to all of my like highs and lows and everything in life because we just as humans were only able to maintain close relationships with so many people and when I have my community here.
• 32:25
  And I have a few people that I stay in touch with at home like you just have to make peace with the fact that sometimes you have to naturally let those relationships physical out or just change and redefine you moved the onus is on you to keep the link more or is it still quite balanced.
• 32:43
  I think it's still quite balanced but I think the perception is that I left right like it's always like well you left so you are the one who decided that we're going to be present anymore and I think I don't really I'm lucky to not have many friends that have this kind of attitude but I definitely have.
• 33:02
  And you know attitudes and kind of perspectives change and the people that really truly are close to you always just want to see you happy and we'll see you thriving and so as hard as it is to be far away when people can celebrate the fact that you're living the life that you want that's when you know you have like really close friends but it's still hard yeah it's so far yeah.
• 33:22
  It's funny when we first spoke and you spoke to me about one of the challenges you raised was dealing with grief and I know in my own ridiculous but I hadn't thought about it like I hadn't thought about what that feels like and you know recently I've had two funerals in two weeks.
• 33:39
  It really resonated when you were explaining the dynamic between you going through basically stages of grief at different times.
• 33:48
  So if you kind of just share that because you articulated it much better than I could I think that's a really interesting point that I don't when people are thinking you know when people think about moving they think about things like salary cost of living with our people community access to Amazon whatever people think about it.
• 34:07
  I don't think many people on their checklist of thinking about a big move is thinking about how are they going to grieve and it's it's not something that you think about because we shouldn't and we don't dress rehearse tragedy in our lives you know we don't we can't prepare for those moments where we're going to be struck by something really heartbreaking.
• 34:25
  But it does happen and when it happens it's something that you have to navigate and it's very challenging when something in your life at home happens that kind of changes everything and then you're not there to to grieve it.
• 34:40
  So I experienced this a few times funny enough I was like preparing dinner for my friends I had a bunch of friends coming over when I get a text that my dog died and it's just like I had to compartmentalize that like okay I'll think about that later that heartbreaking loss because I have this thing going on.
• 34:58
  And if I was home it would have been like stop hug my family like be there in that moment and just like grieve the loss of this 13 years of like wonderful childhood memories and the same thing with relatives that have passed you know it's not getting a phone call and going to someone's house or having someone come share this news with you.
• 35:17
  I'm taking up to a text from my mom saying so and so passed away and it's just not feasible for me to be able to get on the plane and fly home and be there to grieve in the moment I wish it was but you know I don't have the finances to drop 2000 dollars on a trip home anytime someone passes and it's really really challenging to deal with that alone for a few reasons.
• 35:41
  I think first of all nothing in your present reality changes when tragedy strikes at home so when you're at home and tragedy strikes like everything stops the people around you are grieving you're all going through it together and you take time to process and to go through and to move through that pain like together but when you're abroad nothing in your immediate life changes.
• 36:04
  You still go to work your friends are all still functioning like normal they probably don't even know the person that's passed away that you're grieving the loss of and so it's really a kind of a mind fuck to have to process all of that alone when none of your present reality moving on affected you know like the world is still trying here as if nothing happened and then when you do finally get the chance to go home be it for six months a year later everyone's already moved through that process of grief and I feel like it's often delayed for you.
• 36:34
  Because you get home and then you really feel the absence of that person or that pet or that thing that you've lost you don't truly feel the absence of that until you get home and they're no longer there sure you know and then you get home and it hits you and everyone else is six months past the loss you know like they've already moved through it they've already processed it and then you just yeah you can be overwhelmed with feelings of guilt you can just be dealing with all these feelings of grief and sadness and that's challenging and people don't think about that.
• 37:03
  I never thought about it until I had to do it yeah it's that's one of the opportunity costs I guess living here.
• 37:10
  Yeah I hadn't thought about it I swear until you and I had that conversation and then it seemed silly of me to not have considered it especially as we get older and we see things happening and I think my first instinct is to think about the weddings that you might miss out on the big birthday is the 50th or whatever but I hadn't thought about the grieving aspect
• 37:30
  and how returning home especially to the environment where you and that person we have shared but much with all that can also really hit you because like you say when you're here in Thailand and that person you know the spirit of them isn't necessarily with you in your kitchen but then you go to your childhood house and they're there and that that yeah
• 37:49
  it's tough and it's something that I think every person who chooses to live abroad gone through at some point and there's not really I don't know how to move through it you know we're all human we're all working through it as we can but I think for me it's just a reminder to you know be present with the people that you love when you can
• 38:07
  yep I really make an effort to go home as often as possible because I know that sometimes I don't know when the last goodbye is going to be sure
• 38:15
  and so I'm going home tomorrow I'm going home for the summer for a few weeks and I just you know want to hug my grandparents want to spend as much time with them as I can
• 38:22
  because the reality is I go home once a year once every year and a half and as they get older and their years are numbered you know I don't know how many visits I have left
• 38:33
  so it's just like okay see them when I can enjoy the moments really be present as present as I can be and yeah I appreciate it
• 38:43
  well I have it because I know you think sometimes living abroad because we always hear and know that we shouldn't take things for granted
• 38:51
  and it's one thing to hear it and it's another thing to feel it right and do you think that sometimes when we live around the corner from our family
• 38:58
  we barely see them anyway because you kind of take it for granted that they're just around the corner
• 39:01
  absolutely do you think that living abroad means that you truly like live that practice of being present
• 39:07
  and then being more grateful for those moments then you would have done if you were still you know on the same street with your family
• 39:13
  definitely yeah definitely I even joke with my mom because anytime she complains about me being far away
• 39:19
  it's always you know in a joking or loving manner but I'm like if we counted days the number of days that you see me per year
• 39:26
  I bet it's more than my sister who lives four hours away yeah you know my sister when she was living in Chicago
• 39:31
  she'd come home maybe two or three times a year so what is that eight days a year that they spend with her maybe maybe 12 if she came home for a week over Christmas or something
• 39:40
  yeah and I come back for two months and I'm just there and it's different because the timing is spaced out and it's like we can argue about what's better
• 39:47
  two solid weeks of quality time or two days every three months
• 39:51
  what does mommy think I think she prefers being closer but what we'd have to ask her but you know it's and there's there's pros and constable I think
• 40:00
  but yeah you definitely do appreciate those moments more and really try to sit with them and be present when you know how precious they are
• 40:09
  and how limited they are because like you said if you're around the corner it's like oh I could just see them tomorrow
• 40:14
  I don't have time today I could just see them tomorrow and it becomes tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow forever
• 40:19
  but when I'm living on the other side of the world that it's like okay I'm going home I have two weeks I'm going to see them as much as I can
• 40:25
  because I know that I won't be able to tomorrow like I know tomorrow is not an option so today is the only time
• 40:31
  are there any other challenges that you think people don't talk about enough whether it's online to post this glitzy image or something that you have just experienced
• 40:40
  that you can continue to enlighten us because I feel like since I've been watching your videos there's just things that I think about
• 40:46
  particularly cultural things that I hadn't considered
• 40:49
  I think identity is also a thing that I struggle with a lot understanding my own identity and how I show up in both of my world
• 40:57
  because when you exist between two worlds I feel like your complete self involves who you are at home and who you are in your other home
• 41:06
  and there are very few people who ever experience you in both of those places you know so I have my people that know me in Thailand
• 41:12
  I have my people that know me in the US there's very few that I've ever seen that crossover
• 41:16
  and so in that way I feel like no one really knows who I am because no one has ever seen me whole they've only seen part of me
• 41:24
  and when I go home my friends and family there I feel like they're lacking understanding of a lot of parts of my life
• 41:33
  they just genuinely don't know who I am and what of experience and how I've grown and how I've changed
• 41:39
  and in the same way people in Thailand you know Thai people they'll always see me as a foreigner
• 41:46
  so no matter how much I speak Thai no matter how much I try to blend in and be in Thai spaces like I'm always the other
• 41:52
  and that's it sits on your mind a little bit even if it's not a huge deal like it does kind of ostracize you in a way
• 42:00
  and in the same way my community here they don't know my story my past and so unless I really tell them and open up to them
• 42:08
  they don't see me fully for who I am because they only see this small piece of me
• 42:14
  and then now having an online presence that even adds this whole new dimension where people are like they see me online
• 42:20
  they see what I post online and they have this idea of who I am and I'm like you don't know me at all
• 42:24
  like you just know what I've shown you and that's why I try to be really like transparent and open
• 42:30
  when I share online I try to give a whole picture of things because I don't like I don't know
• 42:36
  I don't want to give it kind of a jaded view of the world and I want people to see me as a human
• 42:41
  an authentic person not just a face on a camera
• 42:44
  do you think certain experiences forced us to grow in ways that we weren't necessarily expecting
• 42:49
  there is obviously the foundation the early experiences that have treated to who you are
• 42:53
  but there's created a lot of evolution particularly since you moved here
• 42:57
  do you feel that you're still finding that sense of your complete version or do you know who you are
• 43:03
  as I get older I feel like I know more and more who I am and I'm really confident in myself
• 43:09
  and I've been able to kind of pursue a lot of passions and express myself fully
• 43:15
  especially being here where I have the freedom to do that and the time and the space
• 43:18
  I do a lot of reflecting and journaling actually just launched kind of a passion project
• 43:23
  that's all about diving into your values and how you spend your time and thinking about what you prioritize
• 43:29
  and who you prioritize and how that shapes you and how that reflects who you are
• 43:33
  so that's a practice that I carry and I hold and I think that also kind of enlightens me
• 43:39
  helps me really feel confident in who I am and that the choices that I make are because I'm choosing them
• 43:44
  and not because someone else is trying to mold me into a person
• 43:47
  do you think that being in Thailand gave you the freedom to discover your true self
• 43:53
  because you didn't have any sort of pressures or preconditions
• 43:57
  even whether it's the path that we spoke about before or just the fact that you can start fresh
• 44:01
  there's something about I think being other that also means that you can basically decide
• 44:07
  who that other wants to show up as
• 44:10
  yeah absolutely I feel like especially when I made the conscious decision to stay here long term
• 44:15
  that it felt like a blank slate and I was just allowed to be creative about how I want to spend my time
• 44:22
  and how I want to imagine my life because there were no expectations
• 44:27
  you know it was already like I'd kind of thrown all the expectations to decide already
• 44:30
  I was like I'm not doing that so guys like I don't care about the five-year plan not for me
• 44:35
  so then yeah being here just allowed me to be really creative and intentional
• 44:41
  about what I'm saying yes to who I'm saying yes to how I'm spending my time
• 44:46
  and that's allowed me I think to just like truly be myself
• 44:50
  I actually talked yesterday with a friend about they asked me if I had to adapt a lot
• 44:53
  to come to Thailand to adapt to a life here and I said I don't think adapt is the right word
• 44:58
  because adapt makes it sound like I have to change something about myself
• 45:01
  but in a way it felt like being freed from expectations
• 45:06
  so it wasn't so much that I was adapting I was just like finally given this space to release
• 45:10
  and exist as the person that I am without having to perform or to meet expectations
• 45:15
  or to fill you know the boxes that someone else had put out for me
• 45:20
  you talked a bit on dating
• 45:22
  how is it dating in a space that is so like transient with people moving
• 45:27
  because even I went to Vegas one year for my birthday and I met a guy who worked in Vegas
• 45:31
  lived and worked there and he was saying to me how it's so difficult
• 45:35
  to date in a place like Vegas because obviously people are just coming for a weekend
• 45:38
  to have the time of their life and then leave
• 45:40
  and I imagine there's similar effects of that here in Thailand
• 45:44
  where people are maybe here just for a year or here for a few months
• 45:48
  how is it you know to make those like serious connections
• 45:52
  and as we get older is that something that you desire
• 45:55
  or is it that it's not a need?
• 45:58
  It's tough.
• 46:00
  Let me tell you it is not easy.
• 46:03
  First of all I do desire partnership
• 46:06
  I hope that someday I will find a person that I can share my life with
• 46:09
  I don't feel like I'm incomplete without it
• 46:12
  but I definitely do love what partnership can bring to someone's life
• 46:16
  and I love the idea of co-creating and I'd love to have kids
• 46:19
  and you know show my kids the world and kind of have that
• 46:22
  so it is something that I do seek
• 46:24
  but it is not easy here especially as a woman
• 46:28
  I think for a few reasons
• 46:31
  number one Thailand does attract a certain type of person
• 46:34
  and some of the people are really awesome
• 46:36
  but some of the people are also just a chaotic mess
• 46:38
  they're having their own little midlife crisis
• 46:40
  and then they're here thinking that they're escaping it
• 46:43
  but really this is just life.
• 46:45
  It's a shit storm and like you know what that's for you
• 46:48
  don't involve me in that
• 46:50
  and then like you said there is a lot of trends
• 46:52
  and people that they come here for a month or three months or a year
• 46:56
  and they're just passing through
• 46:58
  and so it's really hard to find someone to be in a serious relationship with
• 47:02
  when you know that they don't have intentions of staying here
• 47:05
  so when it comes to dating foreigners that's a big struggle
• 47:09
  because it's hard to find someone who also shares the desire to stay here long term
• 47:13
  and also kind of matches me on an energy level
• 47:17
  and dating Thai men on the other hand
• 47:21
  also presents a set of challenges
• 47:23
  and I've actually dated a few different Thai guys
• 47:25
  and I had wonderful relationship actually during COVID with my Thai partner
• 47:29
  and yeah I've actually really enjoyed my experience dating Thai guys
• 47:33
  but there's also some cultural barriers
• 47:37
  there's always the language barrier that can be a challenge
• 47:40
  and when language isn't a barrier there's also cultural barriers
• 47:43
  I think in Thailand there's still this idea that men are caretakers
• 47:48
  and men have a really strong desire to you know provide for you
• 47:53
  and so the power dynamics can tilt a little bit when I'm making more money
• 47:58
  or if I have a bit more you know what's the word?
• 48:03
  I just have, you know I'm kind of like the alpha
• 48:06
  I'm a Leo, I've got a lot of energy, I know what I want
• 48:09
  I like my demands, I'm like this is how it's going to work
• 48:12
  and I think that can be intimidating to a lot of guys
• 48:15
  and you know I've been in relationships in the past
• 48:17
  where I'm like you know I can pay for this or I don't mind this
• 48:20
  and like they really struggle with that
• 48:22
  because they don't feel like that's how the dynamic should be
• 48:26
  and I think they take it, they're really hard on themselves
• 48:29
  because they feel bad that they can't provide
• 48:31
  and also just kind of matching lifestyles you know
• 48:33
  when there's a cultural expectation about how your relationship should be
• 48:37
  and what it's going to look like and what life looks like
• 48:40
  and then if they don't match then there's some headbutting there
• 48:44
  Do you have a good word?
• 48:46
  Yeah I think deep down sometimes I'm like what if I never find anyone
• 48:50
  and that's something I've definitely faced when I see a lot of friends
• 48:55
  you know finding partners and having babies and I'm in this weird space
• 48:59
  where all of my friends are in their like 10 years older than me
• 49:03
  most of my friends are in their mid 30s
• 49:06
  and I'm only 27 so I feel like I'm behind them
• 49:09
  but then I feel like I'm falling behind
• 49:11
  because they're all like oh my god clock's taking
• 49:13
  I got to get these babies out
• 49:15
  and I'm like oh my god I need to have babies
• 49:17
  I'm like where am I going to get babies
• 49:19
  I'm like a kitchen and breathe, we have time, we have time
• 49:23
  but I've always just kind of believed that like the universe will bring me the things that I need
• 49:27
  when I'm around me
• 49:29
  in cases in other areas of my life
• 49:32
  like when I've created space for and been open to receiving these types of things
• 49:37
  they come to me so I'm not too worried
• 49:40
  I do have a feeling that the right it'll happen at the right time
• 49:43
  and I'm really excited for when it does
• 49:45
  but I'm not kind of desperately searching or like panicking
• 49:49
  that it's not going to find me
• 49:50
  Sure and do you envisage raising a family here in Thailand
• 49:55
  or do you think that that would be the catalyst for you to return to the States?
• 49:58
  I would love to raise a family here
• 50:00
  yeah I would really really love that
• 50:02
  in my dream I've got you know my house
• 50:04
  so maybe some land
• 50:06
  with my little community around
• 50:08
  and raising our kids together and sending them to school here
• 50:10
  and honestly with the status of America right now
• 50:14
  with the politics and the education system
• 50:16
  and everything I have no desire to put kids through school there
• 50:20
  and I think the only thing that would really bring me home is if my parents start
• 50:24
  you know once they get older
• 50:26
  they start needing care and maybe you know
• 50:28
  they're getting to that age
• 50:30
  and that might bring me back
• 50:32
  but yeah I have no desire to raise a family
• 50:34
  in the States so I'm not
• 50:36
  I don't want to say I'm like entirely opposed to moving anywhere else
• 50:38
  Sure
• 50:39
  you know if I have a partner from another country
• 50:41
  and you know it looks inviting to
• 50:43
  put kids in school there
• 50:45
  you know the education systems around the world are great
• 50:47
  and there's lots of different options
• 50:49
  so that's something I hope that will procreate together
• 50:51
  but yeah if it's
• 50:53
  the way I envision it
• 50:55
  I'm staying here for as long as I can
• 50:57
  Very cool
• 50:58
  What would you only know about living in Thailand
• 51:01
  if you lived in Thailand?
• 51:03
  Ooh
• 51:05
  I think you just got to
• 51:07
  come here to experience
• 51:09
  like
• 51:11
  I don't even know if there's a word for it
• 51:13
  there's just like little nuances about Thailand
• 51:15
  and like when they have it
• 51:17
  you're like that's just so Thailand
• 51:19
  like that's how it works here
• 51:21
  there's
• 51:23
  cultural aspects like
• 51:25
  so bicepai is a popular word here
• 51:27
  where everyone's just like easy going
• 51:29
  relax chill it's kind of like whatever
• 51:31
  it's fine don't worry
• 51:33
  Europeans and Americans can be really like uptight
• 51:35
  and buy the book and when things aren't going
• 51:37
  according to schedule when things aren't happening
• 51:39
  the way they were promised
• 51:41
  you can really get worked up and here people are kind of like
• 51:43
  so bicepai
• 51:45
  whatever's fine it's chill
• 51:47
  just relax
• 51:48
  you can see that in the way people run their businesses
• 51:50
  the way people approach their meetings
• 51:52
  and relationships and stuff
• 51:54
  you have to be here to experience that
• 51:56
  you can tell people about it
• 51:58
  but they have to be here to feel it
• 52:00
  and if your life was a postcard
• 52:02
  tell me what would the picture look like
• 52:04
  oh
• 52:06
  probably me surrounded by a bunch of delicious
• 52:08
  typhoon
• 52:10
  me and my best friend
• 52:12
  eating probably I'm like plastic chairs on the side of the street
• 52:14
  laughing
• 52:20
  you