Latest / The Leading Yourself Podcast / How Curiosity Drives Leadership Growth | Rachael Falloon
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- Rachael Falloon: it's actually really hard to unlearn when you're so used to being the go-to person, I would say. you become the fixer and you realize that actually you're not actually empowering others and you don't have the time and the energy to do your job well if it all ends up at your doorstep. So for me, it was realizing that I had to empower others and let go. to let others thrive and to give myself space to focus on the bigger picture. Kene Igweonu: Welcome to the Leading Yourself podcast. I'm your host, Kene Iguano. Thank you for joining me. This podcast explores leadership as a learnable reflective discipline, not performance, not position, but the inner work that sustains wise and courageous leadership over time. In every conversation, I ask senior leaders the same core questions, not for polished answers, but for honest reflection grounded in lived experience. Season two explores the theme of unlearning, the courage to let go. Leadership is often described as learning, acquiring new skills, new knowledge, and new ways of thinking and doing. But some of the greatest growth as leaders come not from what we add, but from what we have the courage to let go. Old assumptions, comfortable habits, limiting beliefs. Leadership instincts that won't serve us well will no longer do. Because if we are serious about leading well, we must be willing to keep becoming. And sometimes becoming begins with letting go. My guest on this episode is Rachel Fallon, executive leader. non-executive director and principal of Fintana Girls School, Barwyn Victoria in Australia. What matters is not just the title like I always say, but what Rachel's leadership journey reveals about leading oneself when responsibility is high and the stakes are real. Rachel, thank you for joining me on podcast. Rachael Falloon: My pleasure, can I? Great to be here with you. Kene Igweonu: Amazing. Please could you start by telling us a bit more about your leadership and your responsibilities within your organization. Rachael Falloon: So my role is as principal of a girls independent school in Victoria, Australia. My responsibilities cover all facets of a business. So I suppose the core business is education. We are a school that teaches students from three years old to 18 years old. So the whole journey of education through to the end of secondary school. It involves a lot of strategic planning, master planning, strategic risk analysis, business management, and a lot of people work, a lot of HR. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, I recognize that last one very well. Rachael Falloon: Yeah. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, after all, I business is really about people, especially when you're in education, it's about the people, both the learners and also the tutors. So Rachael Falloon: Absolutely. Kene Igweonu: let's dive straight into it, Rachel, if you don't mind. What have you learnt about on learning as a leader? Rachael Falloon: I think I've learned a lot actually. I think for me, I'm a doer. So from my very early years in my career, it was getting my job done, doing it very well, being recognized for that. And so I think, you know, was good at executing things, great with ideas and following up. And so, you know, in a school setting, people see you and you get other opportunities. So then suddenly you find yourself managing people. So great coordinating people, setting clear expectations, working very closely to make sure you're meeting all the sort KPIs and expectations of those around you, supporting people. And as you then move into sort of senior leadership, you can't keep doing kind of that, you know, kind of micromanaging others. It's overwhelming. You don't have enough space in your life. But it's actually really hard to unlearn when you're so used to being the go-to person, I would say. I'm a maths teacher by trade. I love problem solving. I love that opportunity to workshop what else we could do and... So I became that go-to person. Just go to Rachel because Rachel knows how to solve things. And I think you become the fixer and you realize that actually you're not actually empowering others and you don't have the time and the energy to do your job well if it all ends up at your doorstep. So I think for me, it was realizing that I had to empower others and let go. to let others thrive and to give myself space to focus on the bigger picture. Kene Igweonu: That's really interesting, Rachel. essentially, you're saying that as we grow seniority in leadership, you do need to unlearn certain things if you really want to be an effective leader. Can I just ask a kind of long question on that? Do you think that unlearning is something that leaders actively choose, or is it something that is forced upon you by your leadership growth? Is something that, in your case, for example, did you actively choose it? Rachael Falloon: that I think it's a bit of both. Like I think, Kene Igweonu: Mm. Rachael Falloon: I think it depends on your personality perhaps. You know, for me, like I craved being part of things and being that doer person and being part of making things happen. Even when I kept moving into senior leadership and I had a boss at one stage who said to me, Rachel, your job is to make me look good and make sure that nothing ever gets to my door. And And I kind of took that on really seriously. So I felt like my job was to know every aspect of the business, make sure I knew everybody, all the stakeholders, make sure I had ways of preventing things and forecasting anything that might happen so that it never got to the next level basically. So I think I became that, you know, fixer person. until one day when I stepped into the principal role and he came to me and he said, Rachel, you now have to let go. So I think I knew it, but it's very hard, when you've spent your whole career being the doer and the fixer to then suddenly turn around and not do that is harder than you think. Well, was certainly harder for me, I think, to let go. Kene Igweonu: I can recognize that in my leadership as well. I think sometimes when you're a doer, like you describe it, it's very difficult to let go because there are lots of reasons why. But for me, it's because somebody's not doing it the way I would like it to be done. And I feel I want to jump in. But of course, as you grow in your leadership, as I've grown, I've recognized that sometimes just letting people make mistakes and learn from those mistakes is more powerful than me just jumping in and correcting things. Rachael Falloon: Mm-hmm, absolutely. Kene Igweonu: So can you describe a leadership habit or belief or even instincts that you've relied on over the years that you've had to let go of? Rachael Falloon: So I think it I think very much it's being that person that go-to person, you know being the fixer and so for me, it's It's catching myself when people come to my door And and and reflecting it back and saying what do you think? You know, or I think that actually belongs to so-and-so, you know in terms of their role and responsibility so and letting that awkward space happen and then say I'm here and you can come back to me but you know what do you think go away speak to the other person I think that's really important. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, I think I like the idea, the idea of reflecting back. So what do you think about this situation? What do you think about how do we go about this? Even when you may know the answer, I think that's really powerful. Rachael Falloon: Hmm. Kene Igweonu: So just to dwell it on that a little bit, this idea of reflecting back, it can be quite tough, especially when you want to move at pace, right? In the moment when you found yourself kind of not reflecting that back and maybe just giving the solution because of time pressure or whatever, would you say that that was more about the idea of control, wanting certainty? maybe a bit of perfectionism or speed or identity, what would that be in your case? Rachael Falloon: I think it would be about perfectionism, I think you said before doing it my way a little bit. and thinking that I know the right thing and I need to catch myself. you give a lot of feedback when you're in leadership. That's part of your role is to support others and reflect back. But it's also about finding opportunities to ask for feedback from the people around you about how I can be different and how I can support them. And I think that then helps change that sort of way of being the person who has all the answers. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, thanks for that. You've kind of answered the question I'm about to ask next already when you talked about the leader you worked with who wanted you to keep things from coming up to them. But just thinking about you having to let go of being that fixer, having to trust people to do those things, even when they don't do it exactly the way you would like it to be done. What other factors trigger that shift, the shift from wanting to fix everything to reflecting back to people with questions like, how do you think we should do this? What has triggered that shift for you beyond the person you walked with before you died? Rachael Falloon: Well, I think the other trigger is that your roles and responsibility are much greater. so therefore you have to provide the time and the energy to focus on that more strategic piece, perhaps, that more human-centered piece. And so therefore you can't be there and do all of those things because you won't do them well. So I think for me, it's finding opportunities then to make sure that my team working with their team and we're sharing our learnings and expecting the same things of each other. And so when I say, you know, no, I think this is your role or how can I help you in that role? Then they're doing the same with the people in their teams, that they're also making sure that they have time. So we're trying, you know, I'm trying to emulate with them what I want to see. which helps me do the right thing as well. Kene Igweonu: And can you think about, and this might be a tough one to answer, so do feel free to move on from it. Can you think about a moment that triggered that shift? What was it exactly that triggered it? What context triggered it? Was it feedback from other people? Was there a particular moment when you thought, aha, I do need to move on from this idea of trying to fix everything? Rachael Falloon: I it was when people were saying to me, you're always so busy and you work so long, you so many hours. And when you hear that once, you sort of go, yes, you know, that's okay. But when you hear it sort of echoed, you think, well, that's actually not good leadership either. Kene Igweonu: I agree with that. Absolutely. So what made that difficult for you, this unlearning? You you got feedback from people, you've realized that actually to be the leader you want to be in order to facilitate other people in their leadership, you need to unlearn those particular behaviors of trying to fix everything. What made that difficult for you? Was there anything, was it difficult? Maybe not. I don't know. Rachael Falloon: I think because I had to be very conscious and it was difficult because it was decades of habit. I had created this way of working and learning and it gave me great success as a beginning teacher and educator, as a beginning leader, middle leader. So it worked in so many ways so I perfected this skill. But I then had to unlearn because I actually wasn't helping myself, but I certainly wasn't emulating the right kind of way of leading to others either. Kene Igweonu: Yeah. And did that change how you saw yourself as a leader, making that transition and deciding I've got to unlearn certain things and let them go? Did that change the view of yourself as a leader as well? Rachael Falloon: absolutely, because it allowed me to articulate that with my team, be really clear about me seeing that, you know, I know this is a default pattern for me. And I, know, using them to also help me as well. About, okay, what are our roles and responsibilities? Where do these lie? Let's be clear about when you have a question or a problem or, you know, who should that go to? Yes, you can come to me, but who should that go to? And similarly for them. So I think it was sharing that and being very open that this was something I had to work on actually helped the whole my whole team. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, I like that a lot. And actually, I think you began to touch on this idea of how this process of online learning has also changed how you lead other people. And I think that's really important because as you grow, you see, you know, it's a leadership and have all these experiences, you've seen, you know, how things work and how things don't work and the idea of developing other people as part of leadership is really important as part of that process. Would you say that on learning this particular behavior we're talking about, this idea of trying to fix, and I'm sure there are other things you had to learn, it'd be useful to hear some of that as well. But do you think that on learning this idea of trying to fix everything, did it make you more compassionate as a leader or more confident or more adaptable? What is it you say that that made you in terms of the kind of leader you are right Rachael Falloon: Yeah, that's a fabulous question, I think, because for me, what it did in a way was it freed me. You know, I actually felt that I had the space and time to just sit and listen with colleagues, with my staff, with my leadership team, and be more present. And I think they saw that in me. know, for me, I work in a people business. Schools are all about people and relationships, community. so connecting there is really important. Those relationships are really important. Being present is really important. And so making sure that I had the time and there wasn't something I had to fix, because I knew I had a team who had everything under control. And if something went wrong, then of course they'll let me know. so it just was, it was kind of like a freedom. when I got to that point where I felt comfortable with not being the fixer, it was very freeing. Kene Igweonu: you kind of began to talk already about this idea of how online shapes and strengthens leadership, which was going to be my next question. But just thinking about that idea, if you hold onto that idea of learning things or learning behaviors, help shape and strengthen leadership. what would you say that you are better at now? You've talked about team leadership and how you communicate with your team. But what else would you say you are better now at as a leader because you've learned all that behaviors including not trying to fix everything. Rachael Falloon: I would say 100 % I'm better at being a good listener. I think when you're a problem solver and a fixer, as soon as a problem enters, your brain's already thinking about what you can do, where, you know, that freedom of not having to have all the answers and reflecting it back means that you are really listening more. you know, and you hear and you see a lot more in those moments, which I think is much more powerful for a leader and for the people you work with. Kene Igweonu: And has that changed how you make decisions? listening more, how has that impacted your decision making? Rachael Falloon: I would say I have a very strong sense of integrity and compassion. And that's always been part of my leadership. How has it changed? I think people feel freer to just come and bounce things off me, because they know I will... probably ask them more questions rather than just give them an answer. that's been really nice to watch that grow as my teams have come and gone and people move in and out to see that they're not coming for an answer now, they're coming almost for a coaching session. Kene Igweonu: Yeah, that's really interesting. And I'm going to ask one more question and then we can explore more holistically about this idea of online. As a leader, how do you create environments where other people can grow, adapt and learn safely as well? So we've talked a lot about you as a leader online in different leadership behaviors you've accumulated over the years so that you can be a better leader, more effective leader. How do you then create the environment where other people in your teams and the people you work with and your partners can also grow, adapt and also unlearn in a safe way. Rachael Falloon: So I often ask three questions and it could be around lots of things including how often we meet or what our agenda might be. But I usually ask, what do you like about how we work together that you want me to keep doing? what are the things that perhaps I could strengthen and what are the things that you would like me to stop doing? And so I think when you ask those, the first time it can be a bit weird if they're going, I want to tell you to stop doing something, but once you get through that I think then people just feel it's natural and they say, okay, well, I don't need you to do this or I notice and it's different for different people. So I think I have a different way of relating to each member of my team because we're all different and they need different things from me. So I think that helps me understand what they need more. And it opens that to model. And so often I'm reflecting to others and saying, well, How might someone feel about this? Or what else could you do differently in your approach? So, but I think those three questions sort of say, you know, what am I doing well? What could I strengthen? And what really don't you like that I'm doing? Kene Igweonu: I think those are really brilliant questions to ask in leadership. So if you're watching, do make note of those questions and consider how you might use it in your own leadership context. just just thinking about that, there's something about a leader asking people to tell them what they could stop, for example, that opens up this vulnerability in your team because of your seniority. How do you as a leader avoid that punishing vulnerability, if you get what I mean. You've Rachael Falloon: Yeah. Kene Igweonu: created a space for people to ask you those questions, But how do you convey that sense that people can trust that in that vulnerable space, you're also vulnerable and that you're not going to punish that vulnerability based on things that come out from this kind of context? Rachael Falloon: I think it becomes part of that trust relationship and I hope staff see that when they, maybe in a small way, reflect something or share something, whether it's even something that they just want to share confidentially with me or, I always say my room is a safe space, it's a kind of silence in my room. If you need to come in here and shout or scream or rant or rave about something that's not worked, you can do that in my office. And if I'm not there to support them, then I'm not doing a good job, is the way I feel. so I think it's by them being vulnerable with me and I would hope. going away feeling that they were heard or that the confidentiality was kept or whatever it might be so that they feel safe and comfortable next time something happens. You know we all make mistakes and I'm someone who just says you know well it's happened it's done what are we going to do where do we need to go next and then when we've done that we'll go back and reflect on maybe what could we've done differently. So I don't get hung up about the fact that something didn't go well. And so I think I model that really well. You know, often people say to me, but aren't you angry or aren't you worried? You know, and I say, well, what can I do? It's done. You know, there's nothing I can do about something that's happened, but okay, let's work it through. So I think it's modeling that. it's okay to make mistakes, it's okay for things to go wrong, and it's okay not to be coping. So it's what do we do? Let's look about, let's have a solutions focus and then we can go back and reflect later when we've got the time and the space to do that depending on the situation obviously. Kene Igweonu: And I think there's something powerful about that where, you people know that you're not inviting them to just make mistakes, right? But they know that if they make mistakes, that you're not going to kind of jump on them based on that mistake, because that's often mistakes are how we learn. Rachael Falloon: it. Kene Igweonu: So could you just say a bit more there? Because I'm really intrigued by this idea that people can feel safe enough to experiment with new ways of working, experiment with growth because for somebody to unlearn something and to grow, it means that they are trying out new leadership behaviors, new ways of working, which could result in some of the mistakes we've just talked about. How do you, how do you encourage that sense of experimenting, try new leadership behaviors, but at the same time, hold people to account for the outcomes that you want them to deliver? Rachael Falloon: Well, I think that's through your practices and your standards and expectations about how you run your business or how you engage with your community. So it might be bringing a middle leader into a situation that might be quite complex and tricky. So bringing them and having them sit with you while you work through a problem, it might be with a parent or a student. and kind of get them to take small leadership roles just to see and being in that environment so you can catch and support them if you need to. But then it's also that you have to let people go. Like we don't grow if you're not giving the people the space to own their role, whatever that role is. So. you need a really clear role description, but you need a really clear support structure around them to say, but we're here, and these are the people who can help you. so... when something doesn't go wrong and maybe a communication is sent out and okay it could have been better, I've worded, may have not come across the right way and flared up an incident with somebody with a stakeholder or whatever it might be then that's just an opportunity to have a conversation. And so obviously depending on the situation it might be that they can go back and respond and your supporting them on the side, but it's not saying, the principal said, no, no, they're owning that, but you're helping them kind of work through that next process. Or if it really has escalated, then it's still having their back in the situation. And then obviously debriefing and saying, well, how might we approach this in the future? Or if you're not quite sure, where would you go to check? So I think it's... comes right back to the beginning where we can't as leaders do everything. Because if we do, we're A, disempowering them, B, we can't do the job well if we're trying to do everybody else's job. So you have to allow people to take their role. make it their own and when things don't go quite as we planned or they're not meeting some particular KPI for example, whatever it might be, they're the conversations you have. That's part of leading. Kene Igweonu: Brilliant, brilliant. So just thinking about that leader who is right now thinking, well, I haven't got the logs free, let's put it that way, to change how I've been doing stuff because I need to deliver right now. What advice would you give to that emerging leader, that experienced leader about unlearning? How does how the leadership culture look like in this process of unlearning? Rachael Falloon: So I think with any coaching, it's about self-reflection and it's trying to understand what is really the challenge. Because sometimes what we perceive to be the challenge may not actually be the challenge. So I think, you know, as a coach, it's reflecting back what you're hearing, making sure that it is what... they're telling you and perhaps asking questions in a way that might expand on whatever they've started telling you. Often, you know, the coaching approach is about they actually have the answers within. So it's getting them to dig deep enough to reflect on what they know about what they're doing, what they know is not working for them and getting them to come up with some ideas that you might then help them say, well, let's try. What are you gonna try it differently? What are you gonna do differently next week? Sometimes it's just being curious Kene Igweonu: Thank you. Rachael Falloon: and trying to observe yourself and catch yourself in those moments. And so not being critical, but, I've done it again, but just observing when you do those things sometimes. So it's bringing that presence of mind sometimes to... to your day and your work and so asking them to do that you know to catch yourself when you want to be the fixer or you go in to save somebody say okay or here I am doing it again so just not being critical that you're doing it but going okay what do I need to do to actually help myself so I think as a coaching approach it's it's really about getting them to find those small little tiny habits that they will start to change. Kene Igweonu: Thank you. Thank you very much for that. know, what I've learned from this conversation is that curiosity is a key component of unlearning. Without curiosity, I don't think you're going to be able to unlearn Rachael Falloon: you Kene Igweonu: anything. Curiosity drives that behavior to want to unlearn and to pick up new things and stop doing particular things. And I like the three questions you talked about. What do you like about how we work together? What are the things about my leadership that we need to strengthen how we work together and what are the things that need to stop in order to make our working together better? I think those are three powerful questions for anyone who is thinking about leadership to reflect on. But curiosity is the word of the day for me today. Rachel, curiosity, that's what drives the behavior. That's what drives the leadership behavior that enables you to unlearn things. and to learn new ways of working and leading so that we can live well. Thank you so much, Rachel, for your words of wisdom today. I really appreciate you coming onto this podcast. Thank you so much. Rachael Falloon: My pleasure, Kenny. Great to see you again. Kene Igweonu: And everyone who's watched, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you've taken something from this conversation. When you are really curious about your leadership, then you can only get better because curiosity drives you to ask the right questions. Rachel also talked about listening. And I think if you are curious, that's you're going to listen because you're curious. So thanks for joining again. And Rachel, thank you so much for today. Goodbye. Leadership growth is not always about adding more. Sometimes it begins with having the courage to let go, to let go of certainty, old assumptions, habits that no longer serve us well, and ways of leading that no longer bring out the best in ourselves or others. That kind of learning is rarely comfortable, but it is often where our deepest growth begins. If this conversation has prompted reflection, Share it with someone who is committed to leading well and consider subscribing wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until next time, lead yourself well and lead well. Thank you.