Latest / Overwhelmed Working Woman: Boost Productivity, Master Time Management, Overcome Overwhelm & Stop People Pleasing / #287| How to Build Habits That Survive Your Most Overwhelming Weeks, Instead of Collapsing the Moment Life Gets Chaotic

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#287| How to Build Habits That Survive Your Most Overwhelming Weeks, Instead of Collapsing the Moment Life Gets Chaotic · Overwhelmed Working Woman: Boost Productivity, Master Time Management, Overcome Overwhelm & Stop People Pleasing

• 0:00
  Monica Packer: Habits are not metrics we have to hit to be a good person.
• 0:08
  Michelle Gauthier: You're listening to Overwhelmed Working Woman, the podcast that helps you be more calm and more productive by doing less.
• 0:15
  Michelle Gauthier: I'm your host, Michelle Gauthier, a former Overwhelmed Working Woman and current life coach.
• 0:20
  Michelle Gauthier: On this show, we unpack the stress and pressure that today's working woman experiences.
• 0:25
  Michelle Gauthier: And in each episode, you'll get a strategy to bring more calm, ease, and relaxation to your life.
• 0:35
  Michelle Gauthier: Hey friend, welcome back.
• 0:36
  Michelle Gauthier: Today I've got a great conversation I've been so excited to share with you.
• 0:39
  Michelle Gauthier: I sat down with Monica Packer.
• 0:42
  Michelle Gauthier: She is the host of the About Progress podcast, which has four million downloads.
• 0:46
  Michelle Gauthier: Wow, good job, Monica.
• 0:48
  Michelle Gauthier: And she's the author of a brand new book called Sticky Habits, which she wrote specifically for women about how women can create habits that stick.
• 0:56
  Michelle Gauthier: When you listen today, you're gonna learn more about perfectionism, including how it shows up as both overfunctioning and underfunctioning.
• 1:04
  Michelle Gauthier: Why invisible labor makes traditional habit advice, what Monica calls habit bro advice, set up women for failure from the start, and how to build a baseline habit that's flexible enough to survive your worst days so that you can finally break that all or nothing cycle for good.
• 1:20
  Michelle Gauthier: One quick thing before we jump into our conversation with Monica, I am teaching a live class called How to Stop Feeling Overwhelmed.
• 1:27
  Michelle Gauthier: This Friday, September 11th.
• 1:29
  Michelle Gauthier: It's one hour, it's $17.
• 1:32
  Michelle Gauthier: So it's a very low-cost class, and I will show you exactly what is causing your overwhelm.
• 1:37
  Michelle Gauthier: If you've tried to solve your own overwhelm and it doesn't work and you don't know why, come and join me.
• 1:42
  Michelle Gauthier: The link is in the show notes.
• 1:44
  Michelle Gauthier: Okay, let's jump into our conversation with Monica.
• 1:47
  Michelle Gauthier: Monica, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:50
  Monica Packer: Well, thank you.
• 1:50
  Monica Packer: And I just have to say, listening to your podcast, every episode is tailored design for me.
• 1:55
  Monica Packer: I feel like my life is good and rich, but I'm still often overwhelmed and it's hard to work through it all.
• 2:00
  Monica Packer: But I am so grateful to have this moment with you and to be able to have this conversation.
• 2:05
  Monica Packer: So to start with my story a bit about perfectionism, I did not know I counted as a perfectionist when I had a really important moment in my life where I had to face these perfectionistic tendencies in myself.
• 2:16
  Monica Packer: And I didn't know it because at the time I was an underachieving perfectionist.
• 2:20
  Monica Packer: I was one who was on the sidelines of my life out of fear, out of waiting for the right time or a certain outcome or the skill set or the money or the opportunity before I started.
• 2:31
  Monica Packer: I was really stuck in a holding pattern.
• 2:33
  Monica Packer: And that was largely because 10 years prior, as I was approaching my 20th birthday, I hit a different kind of rock bottom thanks to being an overachieving perfectionist, totally meeting that stereotype of what we think of when we imagine a perfectionist.
• 2:46
  Monica Packer: I was that person.
• 2:47
  Monica Packer: At that point in my life during college, on the outside, I looked like a high achiever, someone who was always on top of her game, straight A student, had a scholarship, by all appearances, had it all together.
• 2:58
  Monica Packer: But on the inside, I was paying really heavy prices for my perfectionism.
• 3:03
  Monica Packer: And for me, it was a private battle with eating disorders, lots of mental health issues that went with them to the point of suicidal ideation.
• 3:10
  Monica Packer: It was a really, really dark, scary time.
• 3:13
  Monica Packer: And I went through that on my own, largely also due to my perfectionism.
• 3:16
  Monica Packer: I didn't want anyone to know.
• 3:18
  Monica Packer: I didn't want anyone to worry about me.
• 3:20
  Monica Packer: I also didn't want them to know the type of eating disorders that I had because I basically was a failed anorexic.
• 3:25
  Monica Packer: It was a shameful thing for me.
• 3:27
  Monica Packer: But that shame really stuck around.
• 3:29
  Monica Packer: I'm really glad that I was able to get a therapist and work on my recovery.
• 3:33
  Monica Packer: But in pursuit of recovery, I went to the other side.
• 3:35
  Monica Packer: That pendulum swung really far to the nothing side.
• 3:38
  Monica Packer: And as I approached my 30th birthday, that's when I had to decide am I going to keep living in this cycle of all or nothing?
• 3:45
  Monica Packer: And either way, being paying these prices, which is essentially me not being able to be myself, to show up to my life, to own it as my own, and to pursue things that matter to me, but not the cost of me.
• 3:57
  Monica Packer: And that's what has now been a 10-year experiment.
• 4:00
  Monica Packer: I'm just turned 40.
• 4:01
  Monica Packer: Happy to say I haven't hit another crisis yet.
• 4:04
  Monica Packer: Oh, yes.
• 4:05
  Monica Packer: Okay.
• 4:05
  Monica Packer: Hope to avoid it.
• 4:07
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes.
• 4:07
  Michelle Gauthier: And again, because I already had it.
• 4:08
  Michelle Gauthier: You've got it all.
• 4:10
  Michelle Gauthier: We never have every 10 years, but you better than you did at 30.
• 4:14
  Michelle Gauthier: How about that?
• 4:15
  Monica Packer: Definitely way better at than 30 and 20.
• 4:18
  Monica Packer: And hopefully I have the skill sets and know-how and tools to help me get through what with whatever will come next, because I'm sure there will be more.
• 4:24
  Monica Packer: I mean, that is life.
• 4:25
  Monica Packer: Life is hard.
• 4:26
  Monica Packer: We have these things that force us to take a hard look at ourselves and get clear about who we are and what matters to us and to pivot our lives.
• 4:33
  Monica Packer: I've had many pivots over the last 10 years, but I will say that living outside of that perfectionistic pendulum swing has not only changed my life, it saved it in many ways.
• 4:44
  Monica Packer: I feel like my life is my own.
• 4:46
  Monica Packer: I'm able to show up to my life.
• 4:48
  Monica Packer: There's been a lot of hardships the last 10 years, and I've been able to be me through them, thanks to better understanding who I am outside of perfectionism and making progress in the things that actually matter to me, that help me be myself as I face life.
• 5:02
  Michelle Gauthier: I never thought about perfectionism as not being your full self.
• 5:08
  Michelle Gauthier: I did not put those together.
• 5:10
  Michelle Gauthier: And so that's really landing with me and probably landing with a lot of our audience because when you're always trying to present as someone who's got it all together, or you're too afraid to even get started in case you mess something up, you truly are hiding your real self, the good and the perceived bad.
• 5:28
  Michelle Gauthier: So I think that living an inauthentic life while trying to accomplish the things that you want, I can see how those would really run into each other in not a great way.
• 5:38
  Monica Packer: And this kind of brings me to what I believe perfectionism really is.
• 5:41
  Monica Packer: I know there's psychological definitions that would be really helpful.
• 5:44
  Monica Packer: There's maladaptive perfectionism.
• 5:46
  Monica Packer: It's a coping mechanism for many people, especially those who've been through trauma.
• 5:50
  Monica Packer: But what I think strings it all together and connects anyone who's been on this perfectionist spectrum, whether they've been an overachiever or a procrastinator or anything in between, is perfectionism is a misplacement of identity.
• 6:01
  Monica Packer: It's us misplacing who we think we are on our outcomes.
• 6:05
  Monica Packer: It's us believing that that arrival is possible, that perfection is possible, that overnight success exists.
• 6:11
  Monica Packer: It's us believing that the only way to change is through shame by being mean to ourselves.
• 6:16
  Monica Packer: There's so many lies we believe, but at the very core, it's us misplacing our identity.
• 6:21
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes.
• 6:21
  Michelle Gauthier: Like we have to come back to it.
• 6:23
  Michelle Gauthier: It's always just has to be polished and changed, or completely doing nothing and just thinking about I want to get started, but I can't get started because I might not do it exactly right.
• 6:48
  Michelle Gauthier: So is that overfunctioning and under functioning example that you gave?
• 6:53
  Michelle Gauthier: So, how did you get from that situation to how you're feeling now where you feel like you are your true monica self and that you're able to pick up new habits and have goals and all those things that you felt like you were missing before?
• 7:10
  Monica Packer: So this has been a 10-year-long experiment, like I said, and it very much has looked like a twisty turny roller coaster ride of an experiment.
• 7:17
  Monica Packer: None of this has been overnight or quickly done or easily or perfectly done.
• 7:23
  Monica Packer: But I will say it started with me getting honest with myself of recognizing one that I actually was a perfectionist, even if I didn't think I qualified.
• 7:31
  Monica Packer: And two, that it was not only disconnecting me from my identity, it was disconnecting me from my life and my relationships.
• 7:39
  Monica Packer: I mean, my husband didn't even know the real me because I kept that behind a shield.
• 7:44
  Monica Packer: Yeah.
• 7:45
  Michelle Gauthier: And so I had to bring on a perfectionist move to be like, I'm not good enough at being a perfectionist to be considered a perfectionist.
• 7:51
  Monica Packer: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:52
  Monica Packer: I know, isn't that so funny?
• 7:54
  Monica Packer: But there's other patterns to this.
• 7:56
  Monica Packer: So I had to get honest about how those patterns looked in my life and how they actually held me back.
• 8:01
  Monica Packer: Even when I was the overachieving perfectionist, I had to be honest about how it hurt me, how it didn't create sustainable change for me.
• 8:08
  Monica Packer: Nothing I did actually stuck around anyway.
• 8:11
  Monica Packer: And as part of that, I had to get clearer on what does it look like to change outside of that perfectionistic model?
• 8:18
  Monica Packer: If it's not all, if it's not nothing, what does the messy middle look like?
• 8:22
  Monica Packer: And I started to experiment with that by doing something that was very absent of goals and resolutions.
• 8:28
  Monica Packer: It all began with a list I made of 30 things I wanted to try before I turned 30.
• 8:34
  Monica Packer: And this list was about doing something.
• 8:36
  Monica Packer: Again, not all, not nothing.
• 8:37
  Monica Packer: So we now know as a do something list in my community.
• 8:40
  Monica Packer: We make one every year.
• 8:41
  Monica Packer: Some people make it every season.
• 8:42
  Monica Packer: You can make one anytime in the year.
• 8:44
  Monica Packer: It doesn't matter when.
• 8:45
  Monica Packer: I make mine in January, February.
• 8:47
  Monica Packer: And this list was and is about reclaiming my life by helping me uncover and discover who I am in an everyday sort of way.
• 8:56
  Monica Packer: This isn't a bucket list where it's like I'm gonna kiss a stranger on the Eiffel Tower.
• 9:00
  Monica Packer: It's everyday kind of things.
• 9:02
  Monica Packer: I want to go on three hikes this year, or I want to read 20 books, or I want to host a girls' night because a big part of who I am is someone who is a gatherer, but I never do it.
• 9:11
  Monica Packer: So I'm gonna put that on my do something list this year.
• 9:14
  Michelle Gauthier: So it could be anything, whatever it is that makes you really feel like yourself.
• 9:19
  Michelle Gauthier: First of all, I just love that you're calling it a do something list, and I love that you're calling this a 10-year experiment because that means you can't do it wrong.
• 9:27
  Michelle Gauthier: And that was a big part of it.
• 9:30
  Monica Packer: I have never completed a list.
• 9:31
  Monica Packer: I didn't scratch off 30 before 30.
• 9:34
  Monica Packer: And that was the whole point.
• 9:35
  Monica Packer: The point of this list is not completion, it's exploration.
• 9:38
  Monica Packer: Yeah.
• 9:38
  Monica Packer: And every year I explore new parts of me or I uncover the things I used to love so much, like hiking and bring it back in.
• 9:46
  Monica Packer: And this list challenged the perfectionist in me.
• 9:48
  Monica Packer: I was allowed to be messy.
• 9:50
  Monica Packer: Actually, I was allowed to be terrible at things.
• 9:52
  Monica Packer: I was allowed to be going to this adult ballet class and be the worst one in the class and laughing at myself because I'm so terrible and everyone's staring at me and getting mad.
• 10:00
  Monica Packer: It was things like that.
• 10:01
  Monica Packer: It pushed me to really cue into who is Monica and what does it look like to try in a compassionate way?
• 10:09
  Monica Packer: What if shame wasn't in the driver's seat?
• 10:12
  Monica Packer: What if compassion was?
• 10:14
  Monica Packer: And how does that look then in other ways?
• 10:16
  Monica Packer: That do something list created a trickle-down effect in my life.
• 10:19
  Monica Packer: Eventually, goals came back into my life, eventually day planning, eventually me creating dreams for myself and actively pursuing them, but still in a different way than I ever had, regardless of where I was in that perfectionism spectrum.
• 10:32
  Monica Packer: And then habits gradually came along for the ride too, in ways that I was just as surprised as anyone that I became very passionate about habit formation.
• 10:41
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes, I love that.
• 10:43
  Michelle Gauthier: I'm so interested in that.
• 10:44
  Michelle Gauthier: And I love how you say specifically that habits are just different for women and habit.
• 10:50
  Monica Packer: Yeah, habit bros.
• 10:52
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah, the habit bros who have written lots of great books, actually.
• 10:56
  Michelle Gauthier: But I think you have discovered in doing this yourself and being a coach and a podcast host that it just didn't work for women.
• 11:04
  Michelle Gauthier: So, what is it about just traditional habit rhetoric that doesn't work for women?
• 11:09
  Michelle Gauthier: And what does?
• 11:11
  Monica Packer: I'll first say there's a lot of good in there.
• 11:13
  Monica Packer: We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
• 11:15
  Monica Packer: And we also don't have to grab our pitchforks and hate these well-intentioned men.
• 11:19
  Monica Packer: But why I learned that women must do habits differently is because of this already years-long experiment of progress outside of perfectionism.
• 11:27
  Monica Packer: And I got to this point where I knew better than ever who I was, but my daily life was not supporting that self.
• 11:33
  Monica Packer: I needed to have my everyday life help me feel like me.
• 11:39
  Monica Packer: And that started with a simple habit as learning how to sleep as an adult, because I've always been a terrible sleeper.
• 11:46
  Michelle Gauthier: Oh, wow.
• 11:47
  Michelle Gauthier: That must have been big to take on if you would.
• 11:48
  Michelle Gauthier: It actually was.
• 11:51
  Monica Packer: Yeah, it was a big thing.
• 11:52
  Monica Packer: And I'm still, it's always like a work in progress.
• 11:54
  Monica Packer: But as I was trying to install habits around sleep using these bro self-help methods, I kept trying and failing and trying and failing.
• 12:02
  Monica Packer: And then I was coaching women too on how to break free from perfectionism, how to know who they were, but they also hit a similar plateau.
• 12:09
  Monica Packer: They needed to sleep better.
• 12:11
  Monica Packer: They needed to move their bodies, they needed to actually have clarity for their days.
• 12:15
  Monica Packer: At that point, I had been trained as a coach and I was using those methods that I learned and was trained in.
• 12:19
  Monica Packer: But again, these came from well-intentioned men who thought that their methods were gender neutral and they can't be.
• 12:25
  Monica Packer: And I'll just say the nutshell reason why women must do habits differently is invisible labor.
• 12:30
  Monica Packer: Invisible labor is the mental and physical/slash emotional loads that women carry.
• 12:36
  Monica Packer: It's the labor performed at homes and communities and institutions that keep everything running.
• 12:42
  Monica Packer: But this labor is largely undervalued, unpaid, or underpaid and unseen.
• 12:48
  Monica Packer: It's keeping your toilet paper stocked and knowing who likes what kind of condiment at the store to cleaning, to cooking, to knowing who needs to be where and when, to signing up to sports.
• 12:59
  Monica Packer: But it's even things like who plans your work parties, who's supporting the teachers at school, who's running the fundraiser for the church or the local preschool.
• 13:09
  Monica Packer: It's almost always women.
• 13:11
  Monica Packer: And this is something that we carry worldwide.
• 13:13
  Monica Packer: It's absent of politics, demographics, religion, race, country of origin.
• 13:18
  Monica Packer: Women carry the majority of invisible labor.
• 13:21
  Monica Packer: And that means we have less time.
• 13:23
  Monica Packer: In America alone, we have half the amount of leisure time that our male counterparts do on average.
• 13:31
  Monica Packer: In India, that's six to one.
• 13:33
  Monica Packer: So it ranges per country.
• 13:35
  Monica Packer: Some people have it even worse, right?
• 13:37
  Monica Packer: We have less time.
• 13:38
  Monica Packer: We have less energy because we are doing more and less time.
• 13:42
  Monica Packer: We have less support because this work is so underseen and undervalued.
• 13:46
  Monica Packer: We are doing it all day, every day.
• 13:48
  Monica Packer: It's like the fish swimming in the water, not knowing there's water.
• 13:51
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
• 13:51
  Monica Packer: Because we are doing it all the time.
• 13:53
  Monica Packer: We don't even know how much we are actually carrying on our own and doing on our own.
• 13:58
  Michelle Gauthier: That's such a like a topic that we talk about on this show because it is to the name invisible, and we're just carrying it around with us.
• 14:07
  Michelle Gauthier: So, how does that affect habits?
• 14:10
  Michelle Gauthier: What's the tie between invisible labor and habits?
• 14:14
  Monica Packer: A lot of these methods are designed and built without that reality in mind.
• 14:20
  Monica Packer: They are designed with a certain amount of predictability to a schedule.
• 14:23
  Monica Packer: They are designed with a certain amount of energy as well and time.
• 14:27
  Monica Packer: And if we have less time, if we have less energy, if we have far more interruptions, which we do, and that's all women, regardless of if you have kids in the home, by the way.
• 14:35
  Monica Packer: That's a big one.
• 14:36
  Monica Packer: It's not just child rearing, it's not just stay-at-home moms.
• 14:39
  Monica Packer: It's every single woman.
• 14:41
  Monica Packer: Okay.
• 14:41
  Monica Packer: Every single woman.
• 14:42
  Monica Packer: I have so many thoughts about that, but thank you for pointing that out because I do think we make the mom assumption.
• 14:48
  Monica Packer: How this translates is often we think to form a habit, I need to decide what my habit is.
• 14:53
  Monica Packer: I'm going to start on Monday.
• 14:54
  Monica Packer: And I do that habit for how many days until it's a habit.
• 14:57
  Monica Packer: Do you have a number in mind?
• 14:58
  Monica Packer: And there's no wrong answer here, but do you have a number that comes up on the how many days does it take?
• 15:02
  Monica Packer: Three weeks.
• 15:03
  Monica Packer: I think.
• 15:03
  Monica Packer: Okay.
• 15:04
  Monica Packer: So 21 days.
• 15:05
  Monica Packer: Yes.
• 15:06
  Monica Packer: You are going to likely hear the answer 21 days, 28 days, sometimes 30 days.
• 15:10
  Monica Packer: And that number comes from these methods that were taught, these habit bros.
• 15:14
  Monica Packer: That consistency is dependent on rigid perfection.
• 15:18
  Monica Packer: You start with the ideal habit, you keep it the same way at the same time of day after day for 21 days, and then you have the habit.
• 15:25
  Monica Packer: What happens on day 18 when your period starts, or if you're in a hormone fluctuation, or someone gets sick, or baseball season starts, or there's a big work project that's due.
• 15:35
  Monica Packer: There's so much of this invisible work that we can't even quantify.
• 15:38
  Monica Packer: And researchers have a hard time quantifying it because so much of it is internal.
• 15:43
  Monica Packer: Two-thirds of the work is internal.
• 15:46
  Michelle Gauthier: Makes so much sense though.
• 15:47
  Michelle Gauthier: Everything you're saying, I'm just sitting here shaking my head like yes.
• 15:50
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:53
  Monica Packer: So these methods are they're too dependent on willpower.
• 15:56
  Monica Packer: And another word for willpower is energy.
• 15:58
  Monica Packer: That's it, pure and simple.
• 16:00
  Monica Packer: We don't all have the same energy bank.
• 16:02
  Monica Packer: It's gonna be different person to person, but even women have a different amount because we are pulling from it all day, every day, and we're not pouring back in enough.
• 16:12
  Michelle Gauthier: I love just that definition alone because willpower just always feels so shamey and energy feels more neutral, like everyone has a certain amount of energy.
• 16:23
  Michelle Gauthier: I love just thinking of it like that.
• 16:24
  Michelle Gauthier: And we're giving our energy in so many different places.
• 16:28
  Monica Packer: And again, that energy is physical, but it's also mental.
• 16:31
  Monica Packer: It's also emotional, spiritual, relational.
• 16:34
  Monica Packer: There's so much more being extracted that way.
• 16:37
  Monica Packer: So they're too dependent on willpower, these other methods, and they're also too dependent on predictability.
• 16:42
  Monica Packer: And again, we get interrupted constantly thanks to the invisible loads we carry, which are largely connected to other people on the other side, and people are unpredictable.
• 16:50
  Monica Packer: I'll give a quick example of this shortly after my last baby was born, starting to get back into exercise, you know, I was trying to be really simple and small about what I decided for myself.
• 17:00
  Monica Packer: I was just gonna do a short 20-minute workout video.
• 17:02
  Monica Packer: Got interrupted by the pest control, the school calling.
• 17:06
  Monica Packer: My baby woke up twice way early from his nap.
• 17:09
  Monica Packer: I finally pressed stop on my watch 14 minutes into my workout and said, That's I'm calling it.
• 17:15
  Michelle Gauthier: Oh my gosh, like four interruptions.
• 17:17
  Michelle Gauthier: So much empathy.
• 17:19
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
• 17:20
  Michelle Gauthier: So much.
• 17:20
  Michelle Gauthier: Oh my gosh.
• 17:21
  Michelle Gauthier: So the old perfectionist, you though, probably would have just called it and said, never mind, I'm not gonna do this.
• 17:27
  Michelle Gauthier: I can't do this perfectly, or I can't.
• 17:29
  Michelle Gauthier: Why try?
• 17:30
  Michelle Gauthier: Again, why try?
• 17:31
  Michelle Gauthier: Why try?
• 17:31
  Michelle Gauthier: Exactly.
• 17:32
  Monica Packer: So, what we need to do is there's so much we need to change about how women form habits.
• 17:37
  Monica Packer: And the first way is we have to redefine what habits are for.
• 17:40
  Monica Packer: Habits are not metrics we have to hit to be a good person.
• 17:44
  Monica Packer: Habits are supportive.
• 17:46
  Monica Packer: Their only job is to help us.
• 17:48
  Monica Packer: They are in service to us, we are not in service to them.
• 17:51
  Michelle Gauthier: Oh my god.
• 17:51
  Michelle Gauthier: You gotta pause a second.
• 17:54
  Michelle Gauthier: That was like so very helpful because I also think that as overwhelmed working women, we didn't get this way from just being chill and laid back, right?
• 18:04
  Michelle Gauthier: Like we are overachievers.
• 18:06
  Michelle Gauthier: We like to track how many times we work out and how long it took us and what macros we ate.
• 18:11
  Michelle Gauthier: And I mean, I have this ring on that I wear 24-7 to tell me exactly how long I slept and what percentage was deep sleep and whatever.
• 18:18
  Michelle Gauthier: So for you just to say that habits are meant to be supportive of us is makes my brain hurt in a good way.
• 18:24
  Monica Packer: Um one way to picture this is a lot of us think of habits as prison.
• 18:28
  Monica Packer: There's these bars, they're very striked, they're very rigid, there's no bending, there's no twisting or turning.
• 18:34
  Monica Packer: And because of that, we are often held behind them captive.
• 18:38
  Monica Packer: We are serving them.
• 18:40
  Monica Packer: If we are switching to habits, our helpers habits become nets.
• 18:43
  Monica Packer: They're there to support us, to lift us up, they're there to catch us when we fall.
• 18:48
  Monica Packer: They're flexible, they're able to shift and move around because their whole job is to support.
• 18:54
  Monica Packer: And it's the flexibility that allows them to be consistent.
• 18:56
  Monica Packer: And actually, that's the second thing we need to do differently.
• 18:59
  Monica Packer: We have to redefine consistency.
• 19:01
  Monica Packer: Consistency is not perfection.
• 19:03
  Monica Packer: Consistency is doing your best most of the time over time.
• 19:07
  Monica Packer: Your best is allowed to change day to day and season to season.
• 19:12
  Monica Packer: The way you exercised five years ago doesn't need to be the same way you exercise now or in the summer or in the winter.
• 19:19
  Monica Packer: I was sick yesterday and the day before.
• 19:21
  Monica Packer: I had a sick kid with a double ear infection and surprise doctor appointments for him, and then a sibling and me.
• 19:26
  Monica Packer: I didn't get to exercise the last two days.
• 19:28
  Monica Packer: But my whole point of habits is more times than not.
• 19:32
  Monica Packer: My best is allowed to change.
• 19:34
  Monica Packer: It's also allowed to be the goal here is more times than not because I'm playing the long game.
• 19:38
  Monica Packer: It's not just, oh, I'm skipped a day, the whole habit chain is disrupted.
• 19:42
  Monica Packer: And I'm gonna just throw it out the window because I can't have a habit now because I couldn't do it this way.
• 19:46
  Monica Packer: Yep.
• 19:47
  Monica Packer: So I'm gonna give you another practical way.
• 19:49
  Monica Packer: You know what habit you want and you've designed the habit to be ideal for you.
• 19:53
  Monica Packer: So if you're gonna go with movement and with your season right now, maybe it's a really busy season, and what you need from movement is alone time and quiet.
• 20:00
  Monica Packer: So you're just gonna go for a walk for your movement now instead of your high energy workout class at the gym.
• 20:05
  Monica Packer: And you say, I'm just gonna go for an hour-long walk three days a week.
• 20:09
  Monica Packer: And that seems manageable, but if you're not doing it yet, that's still an ideal.
• 20:14
  Monica Packer: So what we do is we take that ideal and we also create a baseline.
• 20:19
  Monica Packer: A baseline is the smallest and simplest version of the ideal that you can do on your worst of day, on the day where you are sick or there's a big work project due, or something else popped up at home or at work.
• 20:31
  Monica Packer: It needs to be something that you truly feel like on those kind of days, I can still do that.
• 20:36
  Monica Packer: Maybe it's I can go on a walk around the block.
• 20:39
  Monica Packer: It's very subjective.
• 20:40
  Michelle Gauthier: You design the net so that for yourself, not for your next door neighbor or that girl from the gym or anything just for yourself.
• 20:50
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes.
• 20:51
  Monica Packer: And with this, you have the flexibility you need in order to be consistent.
• 20:56
  Monica Packer: The baseline creates the consistency there.
• 21:00
  Monica Packer: It allows you that giving net to catch you.
• 21:04
  Monica Packer: It's not because we're such wimps and like men are so good and we're so bad.
• 21:08
  Monica Packer: It's not that.
• 21:09
  Monica Packer: It's that our lives are different.
• 21:10
  Monica Packer: And it's because of that, we need a different version of these habits.
• 21:14
  Monica Packer: So that way we have the support we need from them.
• 21:17
  Monica Packer: And if you're not chemist of that, that's okay because baselines build.
• 21:20
  Monica Packer: They build very organically.
• 21:22
  Monica Packer: On a day where you think it's your worst day and you go for that 10-minute walk and you're able to do 20 instead, you're gonna feel like a superhero coming home.
• 21:30
  Monica Packer: Not only do you build up to your ideals faster and more sustainably than you will think your baselines build too.
• 21:36
  Monica Packer: Your worst day gets better.
• 21:38
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes, I absolutely love this.
• 21:40
  Michelle Gauthier: And I find too, with the people who I coach, when they want to start a new habit, they want to start walking 10,000 steps seven days a week.
• 21:48
  Michelle Gauthier: And if I suggest, how about 2,000 steps, like twice a week, just to get started?
• 21:54
  Michelle Gauthier: They almost seem to panic about it.
• 21:56
  Michelle Gauthier: Why do you think that is if you think about the way that you Teach habits, what would you say to somebody who's resistant to take anything less than the maximum 21 day, 10,000 steps?
• 22:08
  Monica Packer: First thing here is that's because the self-help and wellness industry thrive off of selling certainty.
• 22:14
  Monica Packer: And that is the water we have been living in without realizing it.
• 22:18
  Monica Packer: We have been living in that world.
• 22:20
  Monica Packer: It's a very rigid, black and white and also not realistic world.
• 22:24
  Monica Packer: As someone who is selling it, it's easier to sell.
• 22:26
  Monica Packer: Someone who's buying it, it's easier to buy because we want the certainty.
• 22:30
  Monica Packer: We want the ideal.
• 22:31
  Monica Packer: So I try to tell people, does it work for you?
• 22:34
  Monica Packer: Are you able to sustain that habit over time if you're playing the long game?
• 22:38
  Monica Packer: And if so, great, it's working for you.
• 22:40
  Monica Packer: If there is a habit where it's not, maybe it's time to try this new way.
• 22:44
  Monica Packer: And I too was long convinced that the only way to change was to be mean to myself, have willpower and discipline.
• 22:51
  Monica Packer: The opposite has been true.
• 22:53
  Monica Packer: I have changed exponentially the last 10 years as I've allowed for flexibility and grace and compassion and humanity to be part of my path.
• 23:01
  Monica Packer: And that's because my growth has been sustainable.
• 23:04
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes.
• 23:05
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes.
• 23:06
  Michelle Gauthier: And you're not being mean to yourself.
• 23:07
  Michelle Gauthier: You're actually supporting yourself, like getting more sleep and all those kinds of things.
• 23:12
  Michelle Gauthier: This is unrelated, but related.
• 23:14
  Michelle Gauthier: In fact, I would say it is related.
• 23:16
  Michelle Gauthier: I was being interviewed, and someone said, What's your number one tip for being successful in business?
• 23:22
  Michelle Gauthier: And I said, sustained habits, like consistency over time.
• 23:26
  Michelle Gauthier: It's so boring, but it's not perfect.
• 23:29
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
• 23:30
  Michelle Gauthier: But I just essentially put out a newsletter every week.
• 23:33
  Michelle Gauthier: There are weeks where I have not.
• 23:35
  Michelle Gauthier: There are weeks where maybe they're very short, but just over time I have done that.
• 23:39
  Michelle Gauthier: And I think that's true about my son just graduated high school and it was not easy for him.
• 23:44
  Michelle Gauthier: School has always been a challenge for him.
• 23:46
  Michelle Gauthier: And it was just consistency over time.
• 23:49
  Michelle Gauthier: We just did our best on the things that we could work on.
• 23:52
  Michelle Gauthier: If I think of all the areas in my life that I feel like are going well, that consistency over time without perfection.
• 23:59
  Michelle Gauthier: I don't do anything to perfection.
• 24:01
  Michelle Gauthier: There's nothing, literally nothing.
• 24:03
  Michelle Gauthier: Maybe I brush my teeth twice a day, every day.
• 24:05
  Michelle Gauthier: That might be my only thing.
• 24:06
  Michelle Gauthier: But I'm sure I've fallen asleep before I do that.
• 24:08
  Michelle Gauthier: But I just don't even have that as a goal anymore.
• 24:11
  Michelle Gauthier: And the things where I feel the most satisfied are where I'm doing a decent job at being consistent.
• 24:17
  Monica Packer: And I'll say one more way to phrase this for the people who are scared.
• 24:20
  Monica Packer: And again, I get it.
• 24:21
  Monica Packer: Think about the many times that your insistence on perfection has actually cost you your consistency.
• 24:27
  Monica Packer: Absolutely.
• 24:28
  Michelle Gauthier: Think of if you want to start doing 10,000 steps seven days a week starting tomorrow, why aren't you already doing that?
• 24:35
  Michelle Gauthier: What has happened before that you have tried that and it didn't work?
• 24:39
  Michelle Gauthier: I think it's hard sometimes just to admit, but I feel like you've given us a really good framework to see the reasons why we can't do that.
• 24:47
  Michelle Gauthier: We are caring so much more.
• 24:49
  Michelle Gauthier: We have so much energy in a day that we have to give to all these different things.
• 24:53
  Michelle Gauthier: So I feel like you've given us a why to why that different, kinder gentler approach to habits is really the way to go.
• 25:00
  Monica Packer: I'm glad to hear it.
• 25:01
  Monica Packer: And I'll just say one other missing piece of this habit puzzle is the identity piece.
• 25:06
  Monica Packer: As I've helped women do habits differently because they can now see it differently and they're doing it in this gentler, flexible way.
• 25:13
  Monica Packer: They don't just change their habits, they change the way they see themselves.
• 25:17
  Monica Packer: And that has been one of the biggest blessings of this work.
• 25:22
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
• 25:22
  Monica Packer: For them and for me to see it.
• 25:24
  Monica Packer: I've had women who have said, I've always said I'm a non-finisher or that I'm lazy because I never stick with what I say I'm going to do with anything and with a new way of doing things.
• 25:33
  Monica Packer: I'm realizing I am someone who follows through.
• 25:36
  Monica Packer: I do stick with things.
• 25:37
  Monica Packer: All this time I thought I was a failure.
• 25:39
  Monica Packer: It was the methods that were failing me, and I never knew.
• 25:42
  Monica Packer: Aw.
• 25:43
  Michelle Gauthier: I hate to think of people talking so mean to themselves and what a difference it would make when they're able to stop doing that.
• 25:51
  Michelle Gauthier: That is amazing.
• 25:52
  Michelle Gauthier: Okay, I have one more question about the habits, and it's a random one.
• 25:56
  Michelle Gauthier: But have you worked with clients who have ADHD?
• 26:00
  Michelle Gauthier: And how do these habits work for them?
• 26:03
  Monica Packer: I have worked with so many women who have ADHD or neurodiverse in other ways.
• 26:07
  Monica Packer: Over and over again, it's been the same thing.
• 26:09
  Monica Packer: These women have said doing this in a different way has enabled me to be consistent in ways I never thought I could.
• 26:17
  Monica Packer: Because I'm now able to even decide for myself what habits look like to match my season, to have the net be there instead of it being the strict prison has helped me be consistent and work with my brain different than I ever.
• 26:31
  Michelle Gauthier: As you're describing it, I'm thinking that the people who I often hear say, I'm not a finisher, I can't stick with anything, are people who have ADHD.
• 26:40
  Michelle Gauthier: And so I think if you're saying you have practiced that with people who are neurodivergent, yay.
• 26:46
  Michelle Gauthier: So not only do we have a book for women, but women who are neurodivergent or non-neurotypical can also use habits in this way.
• 26:54
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
• 26:54
  Michelle Gauthier: That's an extra exciting.
• 26:56
  Monica Packer: There's other things I teach in the book that help you understand that.
• 26:58
  Monica Packer: And one of them is, you know, we really have to make these habits feel good.
• 27:02
  Monica Packer: So we introduce these brain hackers of ways that we trick our brains into doing behaviors, trick them into thinking they feel good and to seek them out more with that built-in flexibility that we talked about too, so that you're able to be consistent on the days where there's just too much in your brain or in your environment.
• 27:18
  Michelle Gauthier: I love this.
• 27:19
  Michelle Gauthier: I'm so excited to have a new book to recommend to clients and to everyone about habits specifically for women.
• 27:26
  Michelle Gauthier: Thank you so much for writing this.
• 27:28
  Michelle Gauthier: I've learned so much in talking to you.
• 27:30
  Michelle Gauthier: This is so great.
• 27:31
  Monica Packer: Oh, I'm glad to hear it.
• 27:32
  Monica Packer: It's been many years of work all culminating in this book, and I'm so pleased it's out there.
• 27:38
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes.
• 27:38
  Michelle Gauthier: I'm so happy for you.
• 27:40
  Michelle Gauthier: Okay, now I'm going to ask you the two questions that I ask every guest on the show.
• 27:44
  Michelle Gauthier: The first one is what's one rule that you have made for yourself that you very rarely break?
• 27:50
  Monica Packer: That's going to bed early.
• 27:52
  Monica Packer: If we go back to my habits, sleep again has just been such a long-standing issue for me.
• 27:56
  Monica Packer: My life runs a whole lot better when I have enough sleep and I'm also able to get up before my kids to have some alone time.
• 28:03
  Monica Packer: I'm an introvert to like the 10th degree.
• 28:05
  Monica Packer: I need alone time to be myself.
• 28:07
  Monica Packer: So I almost never break going to bed earlier.
• 28:11
  Monica Packer: And I've made this really pleasurable, by the way.
• 28:13
  Monica Packer: Like the way I first did it is I had a people magazine on my nightstand that I was only allowed to read once I was in bed.
• 28:18
  Michelle Gauthier: If you're going to bed, that's a great one.
• 28:20
  Monica Packer: And now I watch YouTube videos while I'm doing my skincare and brushing my teeth.
• 28:23
  Monica Packer: And I always have a book I can't wait to read on my nightstand.
• 28:27
  Michelle Gauthier: So you make it fun too.
• 28:28
  Michelle Gauthier: Yeah, I love that.
• 28:30
  Michelle Gauthier: That's a great one.
• 28:31
  Michelle Gauthier: And then what are you super into right now?
• 28:33
  Michelle Gauthier: Not work-related, just something that you're loving.
• 28:36
  Monica Packer: This is my year of hobbies.
• 28:38
  Monica Packer: I'm really trying to explore hobbies.
• 28:40
  Monica Packer: I know you and I talked about this and how I was learning how to quilt, but one hobby I accidentally fell into was community theater.
• 28:46
  Monica Packer: So I'm in Fiddler on the Roof.
• 28:48
  Monica Packer: And the first time in 22 years, I am performing on a stage.
• 28:52
  Michelle Gauthier: Oh my gosh.
• 28:54
  Michelle Gauthier: I absolutely love that.
• 28:55
  Michelle Gauthier: That is so great.
• 28:57
  Michelle Gauthier: What fun.
• 28:58
  Monica Packer: Yeah, it has been fun.
• 28:59
  Monica Packer: I was joking with my friend yesterday.
• 29:01
  Monica Packer: I was like, this play has been both a blessing and the worst thing that's ever happened to me because it's so time intensive.
• 29:09
  Monica Packer: But I have a great supportive husband who takes care of the kids for four hours a night right now as we are mirroring our production.
• 29:16
  Monica Packer: And hey, I'll let you know how it goes after opening night.
• 29:20
  Monica Packer: Oh my gosh, he's gonna be as happy as you are.
• 29:22
  Monica Packer: Yeah, I know.
• 29:23
  Monica Packer: He's he hasn't said a word of complaint, and I definitely would have if I were in his shoes.
• 29:29
  Michelle Gauthier: Oh my gosh, that's probably a whole other discussion we could get into is like how to manage habits with your spouse.
• 29:35
  Michelle Gauthier: But we are out of time.
• 29:37
  Michelle Gauthier: Thank you so much for coming today and talking to us.
• 29:40
  Michelle Gauthier: Well, your book is officially out.
• 29:42
  Michelle Gauthier: If people want to purchase it, where do they go?
• 29:44
  Monica Packer: They can go to stickyhabitsbook.com.
• 29:47
  Monica Packer: I have linked to all the normal places you can get them, including bookshop.org, if you prefer to be more independent, or you can ask your local bookstore or library.
• 29:55
  Monica Packer: And they can also come listen to my podcast.
• 29:58
  Monica Packer: It's called About Progress.
• 29:59
  Monica Packer: I've now done it for almost 10 years, which is so crazy.
• 30:02
  Michelle Gauthier: Four million downloads.
• 30:03
  Michelle Gauthier: That is crazy.
• 30:05
  Monica Packer: Yeah, it's the longest game I've ever played, honestly.
• 30:08
  Monica Packer: And Michelle is and or will be a recent guest, depending on when we hear this.
• 30:12
  Monica Packer: So stay tuned for her episode there.
• 30:14
  Monica Packer: But yeah, just search for about progress in the app you're already in and you'll find me.
• 30:18
  Michelle Gauthier: Oh my gosh, that is another great example of habits over time.
• 30:21
  Michelle Gauthier: You're right.
• 30:22
  Michelle Gauthier: There is no successful podcast that has not just been steady most of the time over time.
• 30:27
  Michelle Gauthier: Yes, right.
• 30:28
  Michelle Gauthier: It's great.
• 30:29
  Michelle Gauthier: That's great.
• 30:30
  Michelle Gauthier: Okay, thank you so much.
• 30:31
  Michelle Gauthier: Thank you, Michelle.
• 30:33
  Michelle Gauthier: Thank you for listening to the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast.
• 30:40
  Michelle Gauthier: If you want to learn more about my work, head over to my website at MichelleGauthier.com.
• 30:46
  Michelle Gauthier: See you next week.