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UpScrolled: The App Taking On Instagram and TikTok · Obnoxiously Pleasant

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Obnoxiously Pleasant.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I am Henan.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Lena.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: For one time she actually said it without me without me giving her a hard time.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: But for real, for real, today we have a very exciting episode for you guys.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've been talking the last couple of episodes.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's, everybody being Lena and I, you know, we're everybody, it's been super frustrated by, you know, the algorithms on social media and by social media platforms in general.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so we went out.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when I say we, Lena, because Lena does all my research, right?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I should show up.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: But Lena went out and met the coolest person and we brought him here so we can all talk together.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: So um let me introduce to this conversation Assam Hejazi, the founder of UpScrolled, which is claims to be that it's gonna be the alternative to like our pains and aches with Instagram and TikTok.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, happy to be here.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for coming on.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: We appreciate it.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, good.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm I'm feeling a bit sick, but I'm all right now.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Salam tak, salam.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Salam tak.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are you sick like physically or like sick of what's happening in this world?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's a very, very good question.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think both, combination of both.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, unfortunately, but currently more on the physical, physical side.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it's okay.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I always say physical illness is like a manifestation of like what's happening in the world around you.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you have every right to be sick because you're sick of this world, like the rest of us.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: 100%, yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Aysam, for those for those people who don't know what Upscrolled, you are the founder and creator of this app.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you can just tell our viewers and our listeners what what Upscrolled is exactly.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, well, in simple words, UpScroll basically is a social media platform, it's an alternative for what people um you know used to, like Instagram as well as X, and very soon uh TikTok.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it provides users with functionalities you know they're used to, like being able to post videos, post uh images, post text, and interact to have interaction, um, you know, liking their content, commenting, and so on.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: So it provides similar experience to those platforms, and it's created to be an as an alternative to those.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, the reason for that, I guess, is pretty obvious, but we can go in details uh in this.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we're definitely going into details.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, because you said the reasons are obvious, but like I always every anytime we have a person on here as an author, a creator, I always say, like, what was the moment that you decided I need to do this?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: No one else is doing this, the world needs this, I need to do this.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what was that moment for you?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's an excellent question.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess it all started two years ago when the genocide in Gaza really started.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I've I've been following up everything that's happening real time, like everybody else on these social media platforms, like Instagram and others.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I've been noticing how these platforms have been shadow banning and in some cases completely banned the users themselves from these platforms, uh, imposing censorship to anything that's really pro-Palestinian.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I've been posting myself on Instagram.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm not really a social media kind of person now.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: I have obstacles, which is uh sarcastic.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: But uh I've I've been posting uh about Gaza and what's happening there, and I've been asking my friends around the world.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: I've got people, uh friends in Europe, the US, and elsewhere, and I asked them, do you see you know the content I post?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: And they tell me what content.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I've I was seeing my post doesn't have any views, doesn't have any interactions, maybe like three, four, which didn't really make sense.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I started to investigate to understand what's happening, and the phenomenon was really uh what's called uh now should banning.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: And should banning basically is um the thing that these platforms impose on on certain content, so it doesn't get to be seen uh by other users, or it doesn't get really amplified using the algorithms that they have.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I was frustrated by that.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: I was why they do this uh to pro-Palestinian content and probably other content as well, which is you know against their propaganda.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and that that was really the moment.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I used to work with uh you know big tech companies.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: I I used to have what people may may see as a successful career, but I was fed up with everything that's happening.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: I've got also family in Gaza, and uh 60 of them um got killed in in the past two years alone.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I was too much um connected to to this specific cause.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I quit my full-time job.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, uh it's time for us to start creating alternatives.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh me coming from the business world, I wanted to do something within my capacity, and this felt like the right thing.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: And and I tell everybody, it's it's not only about creating alternative social media platforms, it's about creating alternatives for everything, really.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: We need to to become uh really independent, digitally speaking, economically speaking, in order to get uh to get far.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's great to go on the streets and protest and and you know complain to governments and so on.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: They will tell you know, give us some sort of um you know thing to shut us down, to say, okay, we recognize now Palestine, so go back home or something like that.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: But that's not gonna be sustainable because it's gonna be the same cycle again.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love what you just said.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, we can go out, we can protest.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I look, I think it's wonderful.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think if man doesn't like to protest.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you why.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about liking or not liking.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's I I I believe in whatever way that you can make your voice heard, whether whatever available means of resistance there are to you, you should employ them, right?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so some people, that is like what they're good at, social activism, right?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: But what you're doing is like super close to my heart.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that technology really shapes how we do life every single day and in our decision-making process and how we feel about things.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that what you just said about offering an alternative because it's so true.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I want to get on up onto a place and I want to know that like if I'm sharing something, even if it's with my tiny community, that people are seeing it, that my voice is being heard, because that is my way of activism.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think people realize that when you when and you answered that question so eloquently and so beautifully.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said to yourself, you have family, you've lost 60 family members, which is I'm so sorry for your loss.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is just, and and your story is not your story alone.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many other people out there like you.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I love that you took that and you're putting it towards something that is that I I my my hope is when I look when I looked at it up scroll, because I'm gonna be completely honest, I'd never heard about it until I told you until Nina told me about it.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a theme in our friendship, by the way.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of things you've got to do.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: She tells you everything.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: She's a lot of things.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a two-way street, right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a lot of things.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: She has her areas and I have my she has her specialties, like makeup, uh hair stuff.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: No offense.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't even have a because in real life, like my I I'm in the world of technology, right?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it's different.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I'm in, I'm kind of like looking at your background, very similar to what you were doing.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but no, definitely when she told me about UpScrolled, I felt really giddy and really excited because I just all I keep thinking to myself is there's gonna be a place when we talk about, you know, when there's something that is that that I put something out there, nobody's gonna censor it just because it doesn't align with someone's like agenda.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: But that leads me into my next question, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's a lot, when I did my research online, there's a lot about digital sovereignty, digital sovereignty and no shadow banning and the algorithm's gonna be different.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: What are you putting in place now to make sure, like, what does that even mean?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do how do you prevent somebody?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And where does the line for like free speech end and mind begins?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you moderate hate?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I know that's a lot of questions, but kind of all centers around the same thing, right?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, what's the plan for up scroll for something like this if it's gonna be focused on, you know, free speech and not limiting someone's algorithm for the message they're putting out?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, these are um great questions.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: So let's let's start with uh the fact that the current use uh social media platforms, the way they censor basically is anything that's against their propaganda.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: So anything against what the US basically is funding.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not really about free speech anymore.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um if if if you talk if you talk about Palestine, that's that's your right to speak up, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: But they still censor you, they still shadow ban you.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh with with with AppSchool, you you will never have that.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Whether that you're talking about Palestine, whether that you're talking about something else.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um our way to deal with this is very transparent.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: So anyone can talk about anything.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we don't employ algorithms to pick up anything that is said on the platform itself, but we rely on the community to report any misconduct like hate speech and things like that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: And we've had a team in the in in the back office that they look at these complaints and then they see if they really don't comply with our community guidelines, and then from there we take action whether that you know notify the user that this kind of you know behavior is not really accepted on the platform because um it's considered hate speech, for example.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and and if if needed, we take down the post.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: But this these are the really extremely uh uh extreme use use cases, it's not like the the general one.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: And as as a platform, we're based in Australia, so we're not really based in the US.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: So there is no jurisdiction for the US and Australia.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that gives us uh that kind of freedom to to not really uh you know be part of what's happening in the US in terms of what they're trying to censor over you know social media platforms and so on.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: In addition to that, I love that.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I love that because I feel like you're kind of making a a small portion of like my Reddit dreams come true.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's gonna just be like it's like more interactive.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, when you get into like a substack and you're having a conversation, but yeah, I feel like it's gonna be that, but with pictures.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I still can have pictures there, but like, but it'll be better.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I do I I wanted to just pause a little bit on that when you said community guidelines, and and I'm asking this just so that when somebody removes my post when I'm on up scroll, that can be like I sum.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Why's my post been removed?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: No doubt.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Noted, right?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: But no, uh in all seriousness, like um, you're gonna rely on the community for moderation, right?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, like what have how like scalable is that?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like at some point you're gonna have to have like a specific moderator for, you know, a set, I don't know, like there's no way.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you get into like the millions of users, right?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna rely on humans?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're doing a terrible job like in real life, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like of moderating each other.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: How are we gonna do that in an online community where you're gonna have subjects that are politically charged, that are religiously charged?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna, that's the whole point of this, of the social media app, right?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like who gets to decide at what point, like enough is enough, or you're gonna post this or you're not gonna post this.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I need a little bit more on that specifically.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: These are very, very good questions.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: Look, um, it's it's they are definitely good problems to have.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: So once once we get there, it means that we have the right traction and people really know about obscurl.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: So we want to have that problem at some point.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: And to counter that, what we're doing is we're we're having or forming some sort of committee um that is independent from obscural itself to hold us accountable to everything that we do in terms of content moderation.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: And and the people in that committee is gonna be people coming from uh Human Rights Watch, coming from Hamley, coming from organizations who looks after human rights in general, and they have experience in what is considered hate speech, what's gonna what's considered harassment, and so on and so forth.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: So they will help us shape that specific moderation strategy.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and from there we'll we'll take it forward.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: So we're not gonna be acting like we're experts, like Mela does, for instance, you know, in deciding what's really hate speech, what's really against this, what's against that.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna have actual professionals, experienced people who do this for a living.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: And they're gonna be independent, so they're not really connected or paid by obstacles per se, but they're gonna be acting as an advisory board that's hold us you know accountable for everything that we do and help us to shape the guidelines um that will uh tell us what kind of content should be allowed and what kind of content should not be allowed, and to counter then the scalability issue.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but look, at some point we will be using some sort of automation, but not to make the decision, but to flag things that should be reviewed, for instance.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: So it will not be completely, you know, we have millions of posts that you know we have, you know, team that will review one by one.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: No, we'll have some sort of automation AI machine learning algorithms that will pick up certain signals and say, hey, maybe you know, you humans should be looking at this content and see if it you know fits within the community guidelines or not.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where the human will come in and then make decisions.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: And that being said, everything will be audited so that human does not have the freedom to decide if this should be.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: I love that based on what what they think is right or wrong.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: It will be audited, there will be random checks to see if they are, you know, these people, the moderators, are complying with our community guidelines and so on.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that also being said, we'll have people in different regions across the world because we know things are different, context is different, languages is different, and and and culture is different.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: So what we may see here is is okay in the US may not be in, for example, uh somewhere else in the Middle East or somewhere else in Africa.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: So we'll have teams across the world, um, they will be acting like community uh uh um you know moderators uh in in some form, and they will help us moderate content that is specific to that region or that specific country uh or that specific contest because you you cannot claim that you know uh what's right for people in the US should be right for people in Saudi Arabia or in the United States.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: So we need to respect the these kinds of boundaries as well.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: So we it's a learning process.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: I don't claim that we know everything, but we will definitely do everything that I get exactly the opposite of what existing platforms are doing.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I'm sold just on the fact that it's the opposite of what exists right now.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's like literally, I'm sold just on that.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't care about anything else.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm asking these questions because obviously these are the things that like pop into my mind, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like I look at the social media platforms now, looking at how how the you know, you can say a word out loud and all of a sudden that's the ads that you're targeted with.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's all that's coming towards your feed.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: It really gets on my nerves.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: It really does.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that like I was like after the genocide started, we were very, very um diligent about posting, you know, information and stories and sharing on on our Instagram.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, I was emotionally hurt, like literally hurt, like in tears about the fact that like I felt like my voice was being limited, right?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: On anything.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter whether it's better anything else.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was so obvious.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like we'd post something that had nothing to do with Felestine and like we'd get thousands of views.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: The minute we mentioned Felestine, it's like what 500 maximum, which is crazy to me because I'm just like at the end of the day, this thing matters to me.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if I was posting about cats and you were anti-cats, like you have the right to just anti-cats.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know, right?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Seriously.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you know that's a red flag, actually.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: You don't like cats, you don't like cats.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so since we're not so since we're not gonna like, okay, you're there, you said that there's gonna be like no targeting, there's no ads.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hoping that you won't sell our data because you know I'm sick and tired of that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's a promise.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: That would never be the case.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: So how are you gonna make money?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like you're talking about yeah, you're talking about all these communities.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I'm I am happy, like I s like voila, I am so happy to volunteer my time in anything that you need help with.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: But on top of that, so it's like you meet, it's like it's kind of like a little movement, right?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm hoping you like I'm hoping that this interview gets other people like me, like Lena, uh people like me who are who have technology understanding, awareness.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like my my experience is in like large scale technology implementation, like and how do you take something from small and you make it scalable, right?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm happy to help.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm hoping that this interview does two things, right?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: One gets you like, you know, free support, me, like me, free labor, and other people like me who are willing to give free labor.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Appreciate that.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but also like there has to be like a long-term plan, right?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have to make this sustainable.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how are you gonna make money, homie?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I want this for you, I want this for us, right?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: For the people.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, these these are excellent questions, but I don't I'm not sure where did you get that we're not gonna have ads because we are going to You are gonna have ads?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, they're going to be ads at some point.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: Look, this is a this is non-for-profit kind of business.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is for profit or you know, organization or business, so to speak.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and we'll have different ways to generate revenue at some point.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: But this is not our primary goal now.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Our primary goal is to onboard as many users, have them you know become aware of what the platform is and have them speak about things that matter to them.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: At some point, we'll have uh uh promoted content, as in you know, someone wants to promote their business, for example, they are going to be able to do that, but that's going to be valid.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not like you know you can you know do do promotion for for you know having someone to to vote for a candidate in in politics or someone else.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be I love that it's gonna be really it has to be ethical kind of uh advertisements if if that's that's something.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and in addition to that, we'll have uh um premium accounts.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: So if you don't want to see those accounts, then you can you know subscribe for monthly subscription, and that's when you don't really need or have to see any of the ads, for example, on the platform, and then you'll get extra benefits on your accounts, like extra limits in terms of the length of the video, the length of the text, number of photos you are able to post, and things like that.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: In addition to that, we're we're planning to have um some sort of marketplace.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're a business and you like to or you sell things, uh you can set up your shop on UpScroll, and then you are able to sell your items, and then the platform will take you like tiny, tiny, you know, commission.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not to interrupt you, but it's funny because my daughter, I told her, you know, we're gonna interview today, and I'm like, Do you have any questions for uh the founder?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: She's 15, by the way.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and she's like, Yes, I want to know if they're gonna have like a TikTok shop, sort of like a TikTok shop.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, please, if like she's like, Can it not be every two scrolls where I'm seeing this stuff?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's literally now every two scrolls, she's right, she's not exaggerating, it's someone trying to sell you something, yeah.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it gets really frustrating.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, how is that gonna work?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I guess she wanted to know this information.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: She did, she did.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was like 10:30 last night when she's like, Mama, inquiring minds want to know.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're we're we're not we're gonna have these kind of feature features, but it's not gonna be in a spammy way.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: We we want to respect the user's privacy, preferences, etc.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: So we're not gonna do it the same way TikTok does.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: But of course, as as a social media platform, as a business, we need to think of ways to generate money to sustain our growth.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because you know, these things cost a lot of money to run behind the scenes.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, of course.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Infrastructure, there are servers that, you know, to you gotta pay your your employees, you gotta do a lot of things.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Besides, like I said, yeah, yeah, that's that's what I was saying.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I hope we get you get a lot of free labor because like you deserve it.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: At the same time, we we do, we do now.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of people volunteering to support with obstacles, and I really appreciate that.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: So we're part of um organization that's called Tick for Palestine.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you've heard of it.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, that was gonna be my next question.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could talk a little bit about what for Tech Pal Tech for Palestine is, because I I don't think a lot of people know what that is.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's a wonderful opportunity if you're looking for ways to do good in this world.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, Isaac.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: So Tick for Palestine basically an organization that was founded after the genocide started.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: The founder of that is uh a legend called uh Paul Bigger.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: He comes from the Bay Area with successful uh businesses that source multi-billions.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: He quit all that and he established Tick for Palestine.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: And he wrote um a blog about a couple of years ago, uh less less than that, and he said, I can't sleep, and that was viral.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: And the way he couldn't sleep because of the genocide, because of the things that he was seeing, and he wanted to make a difference.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: So uh that guy is really connected in the Bay Area in the Silicon Valley.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so he formed this organization, it's not for profit, and he started to support any business that is pro-Palestinian and against the Zionists, essentially.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of people gathered around him.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, currently they're incubating a lot of projects, like Boycat app.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you've heard about it.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh J.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, I have.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: And and you know, some other some other news outlets like News Court, I think you see it on Instagram.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, these are all part of Tick for Palestine, and it's like a community of 9,000 volunteers around the world, um, and they support businesses that basically uh want to promote Palestinian uh uh businesses, and it doesn't have to be digital business, it can be really anything from news, from journalism, from technology, obviously, but also anything.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: And and you you will find a lot of uh people that you may not know of part of uh that organization.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and the funny thing, a lot of those people had no idea what Palestine is before the genocide, but now they've learned a lot and they were like, you know, they divested from everything, and they don't want to be part of any entity that's uh you know remotely connected to Zionism by any means.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's in a nutshell tick for Palestine.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: I highly recommend that you guys connect with them.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: Happy to do introduction for you.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh okay, that would be amazing.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I would be so uh I would be so grateful.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, it it's a good way for me.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is like how I would love to use my my my voice, right?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I would say like whatever form of resistance you have, like employ it.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: For me, this is what matters because it's not like and and don't get me wrong, I don't want I am gonna get so much hate for this.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-oh.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think every form is wonderful, but I wanna like I wanna like hit them where it hurts.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I feel like when you go out and protest, the sheer numbers, like it's solidarity, it's beautiful, like I love to see it, but I like I want to hit them like in their money.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want it to bother them.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I want them to not sleep at night because we we're doing something that that is changing the way that people consume these things that are out there.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And again, like I mean, this stuff, this this area, you know, social media is such a big deal.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm sure you've heard the
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: the the news stories about you know uh the israeli government paying seven thousand dollars for each post and how you know they're not now these uh the what's his name um Larry Ellison yeah I mean these guys are taking over TikTok and it's such a big deal it's such a big deal and it's changed the narrative but that's what I mean like I want I want us to be the drivers of the container a hundred percent so it's weak yeah and that's that's the only way forward guys I mean if we if we don't do that we will not get too far we need to and I think yeah I not to interrupt you but like I I think the point I wanted to make it's not just in when it comes to tech or social media I think in everything we need to find our own alternatives whether it's coffee shops I mean like the Yemeni coffee shops are all over the place exactly they're amazing anything it's not just tech in any any kind of place whether it's food or or tech or like you know whatever it is I think we need to start we've got 100% you know I always there's something that I always say I somewhat bothers me about like as I've become I so I I didn't I wasn't born in the United States I came here as an immigrant at the age of 10 right um so I but I spent a a lot of my life here 35 of my life 35 years of my life here and a lot of times I I tell Lena I'm like it bugs me because they want my food they want my music they want everything they just don't want me yeah but at the end of the day like you can't have all of that without me right so my whole thing is yes always find an alternative right because the most beautiful part about us right our food our music our culture everything is us that's like our people the people so it's it's 100% agree with you the only way the only path is forward so I'm very excited like this makes me so excited and leads me to my next question.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: I have a I have a few questions too because we don't want to take we don't want to take too much of my lecture because I'm nosy and and you know like I work I'm a journalist in my daytime job so I want to know what um what are the numbers like when did you launch and are you happy so far with the numbers that you know of people downloading this app is it is it higher than your expectations does it meet your expectations are you like what what's how is that going it's way higher than my expectations to be frank with you so we we we did launch uh about uh three months ago and I had no expectations to see you know any any number near what we're having now I remember when I launched it I did not tell anybody even my wife did not know what I was working on for the past year and a half she kept asking me what are you doing what are you doing I said that's clandestine level that's like that's crazy I would I I'm I'm you know that's a good woman yes she is she's a perfect that's a good woman because because she like any other woman have been like he's cheating on me to over oh no she's she she she never she never thought that and she was you know she's continuously supporting what I'm doing and but you know uh what is your what is your wife's name if you don't mind sharing Sarah yeah of course Sarah oh Sarah okay shout out Sarah Sarah is a real one yeah she's the one hundred percent um but yeah I mean I didn't tell anybody about this and when I launched it I did not have any expectations so I did launch it on the app stores the Google as well as the Apple uh store and you know the first day there was like you know a few hundreds of people downloading the app you know that was normal I didn't expect to see thousands but then the next uh couple of days I had a few discussions with with the guys I think for Palestine and they say wow this is really good alternative we've been waiting for that and I think they've they've talked with some of their friends um friends meaning influencers that are pro-Palestinian and those guys like Mohamza like uh you know your favorite guy I don't know if you know him he's he's big on TikTok um they started to to talk about uh not your favorite guy his name is your favorite guy your favorite guy yes no I know I know exactly who you're talking about you're like your favorite you're like you're like no I'm my favorite guy so no I know exactly when you who you were talking about your favorite guy yeah yeah and and they started to tell their followers hey we have big announcements to make finally we've got alternative etc etc and then when that's when we started to see uh thousands and thousands of users is starting that's awesome sign up so 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 going forward so there's a lot of users signing up on this and we haven't done any real paid promotion or branding yeah you haven't yeah you have have you haven't I mean I I don't even remember how I came across it honestly like it was so random and it's funny because Lina was like there's yeah she's like there's this new app that I gotta tell you literally a couple weeks ago yeah we oh that's so we I created a profile for for the for our podcast on there so that's like super exciting but it's hilarious because um you know you're absolutely right it's like I and I love that my my hope for your Islam is that like that mass exodus that happened off of TikTok you know when when it was about to shut down and folks were going to the Chinese apps like my I'm crossing all my fingers and toes and like making so much dua that that this that that that shift happens like from us from our communities from our people that we now move there and that we take our money our resources our shops everything there because this is something that is by one of us for us for what our goals are right and it like it's just for I I think that's that's so important.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's so important.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: So did you have anything else?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because I have a couple more and then I'll let him go.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: Okay I have one question okay go ahead no no you go because mine are like you know you go ahead fun time questions no just I'd be worried it's um she always asks these questions and you're so messed up in front of the Salama you're life geek um so I I have so like I you said something really important in the last answer which just is kind of like surpassed your your your dreams right of like people logging out where like like best case scenario right in like a year where do you hope to be like what do you see for like if you if you if I could if I was the genie from Aladdin and I can grant you one wish right okay in a year where do you want to see yourself an up scroll uh so uh I think the most important thing is number of users growth so uh where we want to hit in one year uh timeline from now is to have at least a couple of millions of users to be active on the platform and continuously use it.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's really the the initial goal but of course we hope for more but this is I would say the starting point.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: And this is important because a social media platform without users without interaction is not really you know useful for anybody.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: So we want more users we want more people to start using this platform and post on it and tell their friends to their colleagues till their neighbors family and so on and start onboarding into uh up scroll that doesn't mean that they need to completely uninstall the other apps.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think our presence on the other apps is still needed at at the moment we need to to to tell people about up scroll obviously one thing but another thing is to keep talking about Palestine and the things that matter to us until we have sufficient number of users on Up Scroll.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Until then I think I think uh the combination of both would would be really uh a a good one okay and then I think my my question is more about um since the since you started this journey and in creating this app what has been the biggest surprise for you what and something that you didn't really see coming but it's been a sort like something you were surprised by surprise bad surprise bad or good surprise both I like I like this question.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: So when I created the app so me I'm coming from I'm Palestinian I was born in Jordan um my expectation was most of the people would be coming from the Middle East the Arabs would be you know uh flooding into the app and I I worked so so hard to create an Arabic user interface which is right to live and it's it is pain in the butt you know to do that of course from from co from coding perspective to have the layout I was like I need to do it for my people you know I'm Arab so that's that's very important.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: And of course there's the English version and and uh soon we'll we'll have other languages but to my surprise most users uh uh uh on the platform are actually from the US from Australia yeah from Europe and they're not Arabs uh which is great which is great i want I want the non-Arabs to start to start being there but that was like surprise for me um that's interesting that's a good surprise though that's a wonderful surprise surprise I love you know what it means you're doing something right Aissam it really does it means that you are the because think about it like this right I don't look at it as just like yes you may you may have started this because of what was been what like the genocide that's been ongoing for the last two years.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: You may have started this because you have like personal passions or you have personal feelings that you want you want your people you want your voice and the voice of your people to be heard right yeah but then I think of other folks here inside the country where the last two years was like earth shattering for them.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Every single thing that they thought they knew was completely broken because you I mean think about it if you if you if you look at the last two years and you're like oh my God our government is funding this thing and then it scares the bejesus out of you you're gonna be like well what has my whole life been about what have where have I been getting my information and so like good for you for creating an avenue for someone else to like go out and seek information like real correct information right information on what's actually happening in the world.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And my sister oh you know always told me that my sister traveled travel used to travel a lot for work and she's like just COVID 19 alone she was she was about to be stuck in London before that when when they started shutting down here and she's like what I saw on American news versus what I saw on the English news were two completely different worlds.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: My dad called her like freaking her out saying like come home come home come home I don't want you to be stuck the world's gonna close down and she's like people here had like it was just completely different messaging.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and so I think whether you're in Europe whether you're in the United States Australia wherever else people are hungry for an alternative to the crap that we're being fed every single day.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like they know yeah for the truth they know that everything that we consume online is fake ass shit.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: No that's that's 100% precise and and you know what it's gonna get worse guys so I you've probably been seeing um you know the latest news with Benjamin Netanyahu I mean in addition to paying each influencer seven thousand dollars for each post he gathered them in a room and he said hey yeah the new weapon now is social media uh networks and platforms that's where it matters yeah and TikTok is very important because they they've seen the effect that TikTok has created in the US with the young generation and these people the same people uh who owns the mainstream uh news outlets like CNN Fox News and Sky News and so on now they're onto social media platforms they started to act to do acquisition to to platforms like TikTok and you know with with X we've got Elon Musk who's completely you know let's not go there his his own category a lamao that's his category yeah but but you see that those people I mean they they they want to control the narrative on the social media platform and you're gonna see a lot of changes in the coming weeks.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean people already seeing these changes in terms of what things or content they're seeing on these platforms I'll be honest with you this started I was telling Hanan uh last time we hung out I was telling him like the algorithm and the way TikTok uh pushes out information changed since January.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely when they took us off for those 24 hours or less than 24 hours like it's completely different.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the same.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I think just to get back to your point about you know Netanyahu and like these guys paying them$7,000 for each post, I think they can, that's fine.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: They can take control of it now.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think honestly and I don't say this because I'm Palestinian or like I'm super optimistic but no honestly I truly believe it's a little too late for them.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the world you know it's it's out there.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: This information is out there now and you can't take it back.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Look you can't you know this is this is the truth and you can't hide it anymore.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's done.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's over and and and they lost that battle now they're trying to regroup and take control of the narrative but I think it's too late for them.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and with apps like yours I think that's so important now this is the the most important time for the rest of us that are sick and tired of these places you know shadow banning us or censoring us.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is the moment and this is why we all need to download this app.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I already did yes I have an account I have some followers we have like 19 but we're we're getting there we're getting there but this is it's such an important time and I think we all need to support uh projects like this and and inshallah it becomes the most successful thing inshallah I I do I do yeah I do agree with Lena I think it's like it's I look anybody who knows me will tell you that I am a I will fangirl for anything that is by us for us.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes 100% that's me fangirl for anything by us for us and like I said earlier I cannot wait to see the max the mass exodus from TikTok from Instagram of creators like Lena myself creative the folks who do clothes, coffee any kind of content to come to up scroll because I want to be part of a community that one doesn't want to limit my voice if I'm upset about something if I'm happy about something it doesn't matter.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: They just don't want to limit my voice they're gonna give me the platform to be me truly the good me, the bad me, the ugly me, all of me, right?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very important.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think we also like our community like we're we're we're cool.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: We make amazing coffee we make amazing content we made amazing clothes everything so like let's take ourselves guys and move over to this new place where we can empower each other and empower a creator that's trying to give us the space to be exactly who we want to be exactly yeah yeah yeah I agree with that am I ready for a marketing team yeah maybe Santa Cv exactly exactly um look uh but but but you know I I think we should all come together in every single thing that we do whether that's you know this platform whether that's you know buying products from from from you know other Arabs or Palestinians and so on whether that's coffee whether that's you know buying fashion designs and and you know being in journalism and support we should support one another.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: We should become one and that's the only way forward.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said I'll repeat that again we'll continue to protest in the street we continue complain but we need to create independent economies of our own where we where we are not really dependent on them anymore.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where they will really uh not be happy and that's where we want to get yes you know what that is mic drop exactly thank you so much thank you so much Aesam this was amazing thank you for coming on board I can't wait to see what yeah I can't wait to see what what comes next really really thanks guys appreciate it thanks for having me