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Top Tips to Master Job Interviews · Work It Like A Mum

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
0:13
Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
0:22
Speaker 1: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
0:29
Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
0:42
Speaker 1: Shy away from the real talk?
0:44
Speaker 1: No way.
0:45
Speaker 1: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all.
0:49
Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
0:57
Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
1:07
Speaker 1: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
1:10
Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
1:17
Speaker 1: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
1:29
Speaker 1: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
1:34
Speaker 1: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job?
1:43
Speaker 1: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
1:52
Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
1:55
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
2:00
Speaker 1: Today I am delighted because I'm chatting with career coach Denise Matthews.
2:05
Speaker 1: Denise is a real inspiration to me.
2:08
Speaker 1: She has been retired three times and can still not stay retired.
2:14
Speaker 1: She absolutely loves working.
2:16
Speaker 1: She loves her job.
2:18
Speaker 1: So I'm going to be chatting to her more about her work as a career coach and what she has done throughout her career, because she's been on a real squiggly journey throughout her career and has worn many hats.
2:31
Speaker 1: We're going to be talking also about what Denise has planned next.
2:37
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me.
2:39
Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting me on.
2:41
Speaker 1: No, I would say I got so inspired when we chatted the other week and I just loved hearing you and all your plans and um, obviously you what I think what really struck me was you spoke about all the different coaches that you worked with and it doesn't seem like you are afraid to invest in yourself and invest in your learning and invest in developing new skills, and I think that is chatting to a lot of women.
3:07
Speaker 1: I think that's what can hold people back, is that fear of spending money on themselves.
3:14
Speaker 1: Did you ever have that fear and you know how did you get over it?
3:19
Speaker 2: No, Well, yeah, to start with, I'm ADHD, so you know shiny, shiny objects.
3:28
Speaker 1: I love you.
3:28
Speaker 2: Anything, anything new.
3:29
Speaker 2: I'm like whoa and I'm really I mean, you know, I was a recruiter for many years and so I'm nosy, I'm really curious and I think that's also what's made me look at things and and just go after different ideas.
3:45
Speaker 2: Um, I think the investment in South um as I say, I was a recruiter for 32 years.
3:48
Speaker 2: Um, and people used to sort of come as though it was the organization's responsibility to develop them, and I never actually held that view.
3:59
Speaker 2: Um, my dad was an entrepreneur, my mom was a head teacher, my nans both had big roles in their day, and I think it comes from that whole family upbringing.
4:13
Speaker 2: It doesn't come to you, you have to go find it the way I've always lived.
4:26
Speaker 2: But I think for women in particular, you know we get caught up, don't we in the family piece, and we haven't got time and we're running to gym clubs and swimming and ballet, all the things that we do yeah, because we're investing in our children, aren't we?
4:35
Speaker 2: and investing in all their extracurricular stuff and and that is so right too, um, but I had a conversation with my girls, who are now 37, 33, um, and my oldest daughter's on her, just on her third degree, um and uh, you know, has changed jobs a number of times and had her own business.
4:59
Speaker 2: And I said to them you know, did you miss out on the fact that?
5:03
Speaker 2: A, I was a very committed working mom.
5:06
Speaker 2: I worked a lot of hours, but that also I was often at conferences.
5:11
Speaker 2: Events got my head stuck in a and they were like, no, it was brilliant, because you showed us that there wasn't just one way to do something.
5:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the thing, isn't?
5:22
Speaker 2: It is that you know when, when we mix with other people who have got new ideas and can challenge us, whether we agree with them or not, it doesn't really matter, um, but to get out there and do that.
5:36
Speaker 2: I love nothing more than being at an event and hearing other people speak and challenge my thinking.
5:42
Speaker 2: Or, you know my book, my bookshelf today.
5:45
Speaker 2: It's absolutely solid here, some weeks I've read many times and others that haven't yet opened, but I will, um and so.
5:54
Speaker 2: But then you know, it came to, I think, my, my, I did um an ILM.
6:00
Speaker 2: Back in 2006 we were doing executive recruitment and I became really uneasy that we would go out and the headhunt people who were in really good jobs, pretty settled, and we go out and take them on this wonderful journey of possibility and then at the end we go sorry, you didn't get the job.
6:19
Speaker 2: And they go now what, now what?
6:23
Speaker 2: And we've unsettled them and all of that, and so my business partner at the time and I decided that we wanted to do something that was much better than that sort of dropping people in, and so we went and did our ILM7s.
6:40
Speaker 1: What is an ILM7?
6:43
Speaker 2: It's a management qualification, executive coaching qualification.
6:46
Speaker 1: Oh, right, yeah, yeah.
6:47
Speaker 2: So that qualified us just to do that and it is really well thought of ILM7, although I did it many years ago, it's still around and a lot of my clients do go on to do ILMs.
6:59
Speaker 2: There's a lot I can say about that, but I'll come back to it in a minute because it's useful.
7:03
Speaker 2: But so we did that and also did MBTI and you know all that sort of thing, and added that into our business portfolio.
7:13
Speaker 2: And so when we placed senior people, we added a 90-day coaching program as a settlement into their new role and, as you know from the work you do, that first 90 days can be so rocky.
7:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll settle in and find their way and of course, inevitably people have their 90 days.
7:30
Speaker 2: It was all part of the package, it wasn't extra, but then they kept us on and so we carried on coaching.
7:35
Speaker 2: Um, but then also what happened is that we put a sort of a model together to stay in touch and in contact what a lot of people look at as a bit of a funnel CRM maybe these days with the people that we met in a process, because it wouldn't be loads, it'd be a few, and I was really proud that at my big birthday this year that I had two tables of people that have come from that part of my life, that they were candidates some I've never placed, but they've become clients, they've become friends, they've become mentors and I think if you invest yourself into that, you just get so much back and that taught me a lot.
8:14
Speaker 2: Um, and then of course, you know, the world moved on and I went through lots of different businesses, but then we got to Covid and I was.
8:24
Speaker 2: I was in one of my retired phases, I'd had a back operation were you still in recruitment then or no you?
8:29
Speaker 2: were retired sort of.
8:32
Speaker 2: My job was in corporate.
8:38
Speaker 2: I worked for asos and I headed up um, the talent acquisition for the contact centre, which was a phenomenal role and 24-7 and really hard work and so.
8:50
Speaker 2: But then I came out of that and had to have back surgery and my younger daughter is disabled and she got some real issues going on.
8:57
Speaker 2: So I thought this is the time to stand back and all that sort of stuff.
9:01
Speaker 2: And while I was off, it was probably about two years that time but then the phone call started to come.
9:09
Speaker 2: Have you got time?
9:10
Speaker 2: Could you just?
9:11
Speaker 2: And two of my core clients I've worked with for many, many years said look, you know, one said I'm leaving, I need to replace my job.
9:18
Speaker 2: I mean, what recruiter doesn't want to go and do a final hurrah as a big you know?
9:24
Speaker 1: direct a bit of extra money yeah, this is a cruise um and so I'd like that you know if I've got a holiday I want to like save up.
9:33
Speaker 1: I'm like trying to work really hard.
9:36
Speaker 2: I always say I do it for shoes and handbags, and grandchildren and um, and so, yeah, I did work throughout that retirement.
9:44
Speaker 2: It was very relaxed.
9:45
Speaker 2: And then, of course, you know, it got to pandemic.
9:49
Speaker 2: My phone was ringing with people I hadn't spoken to for ages and I was sitting in the garden and said, oh, I'm really fed up, I don't know what to do.
9:56
Speaker 2: And I was giving out loads and loads of suggestions and my husband said to me you should be being paid for this.
10:01
Speaker 2: You are career coaching over a glass of wine.
10:03
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, so, um, I was doing the course at that time because we've also got a wedding cake business in the family yeah so I was helping with that.
10:13
Speaker 2: So I was doing a course, um, sort of a marketing course at that time for the wedding cake business, called one too many, and I started meeting people and I thought, actually I think I would quite like to formalize my career coaching, because I've done it for all these years but I've never followed a model.
10:32
Speaker 2: I've used my executive coaching model.
10:35
Speaker 2: Um, so I don't know.
10:36
Speaker 2: But do you know john lees, who writes a lot of the career coaching books?
10:40
Speaker 2: John's one of my heroes, I think.
10:42
Speaker 2: He's phenomenal and um, and I've been to some of his events and things, and so he's affiliated to a course called firework and we've been going for 15, 16 years, so really well established in the world of career coaching.
10:56
Speaker 2: Um, and so I went and did that and it was a six-month program, um, all the learning up front, worked with a great group of um, actually all females, um, and did that and got my final work, career coaching qualification, and so then changed my model and went out as a career coach.
11:11
Speaker 2: But then I got the bug.
11:13
Speaker 2: Then I was learning and I found that oh, because that was that you know.
11:19
Speaker 2: Because, yeah, you've done obviously your exec coaching course earlier on and going to the events and doing all of that, so learning.
11:26
Speaker 2: But then, of course, we got to a pandemic.
11:28
Speaker 2: You couldn't go to any events.
11:29
Speaker 2: You couldn't go and have a coffee or a glass of wine with anybody and win business or anything that way.
11:34
Speaker 2: It got to be online and I found that incredibly difficult.
11:38
Speaker 2: I really it was just completely outside my comfort zone doing what we're doing today, even though we do it all the time now, of course.
11:53
Speaker 2: But um, and so I started to find groups and you know all the things that were going on.
11:55
Speaker 2: I got really curious and found some people to follow that were very, very inspirational, and so um signed up some courses, learned how to do basic things like male light and all that sort of stuff needed to do um.
12:08
Speaker 2: And then um met a coach that I still work with to this day on a novel too, actually, um, a lady called dawn baxter, um, and she's got a marketing agency called beyond the dawn um, and she did a mastermind.
12:23
Speaker 2: I thought mastermind, that sounds good, that's great.
12:27
Speaker 2: So for 12 months I worked with this phenomenal group of 20 women and we did all sorts and that really I moved miles in that and what I learned was that I've been doing all that stuff before um, but when I'd stopped, I'd I don't know stagnated what I don't know what you call it really but and I found that by going and learning and mixing with people just fills me with complete joy.
12:51
Speaker 2: I love it.
12:52
Speaker 2: I don't have to agree with what they're saying I don't but it makes me think yeah, it makes you question things.
12:59
Speaker 2: It makes me question.
13:00
Speaker 2: It gets me up back on the computer in the mornings question it gets me up back on the computer in the mornings and I you know there's so much to be said um for keeping your mind moving.
13:12
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of evidence, isn't there, that if you keep the mind moving you live better and healthier.
13:14
Speaker 2: You know, and the bones might be creaking, but the mind isn't um, and so yeah, that's.
13:19
Speaker 1: Does it make you feel alive when you learn something new?
13:22
Speaker 2: it really does.
13:23
Speaker 2: I mean, um, I couldn't go this weekend to Nicola's in-person peak fest because we were on holiday in our house in Spain, but I went in online and joined in and listened to some of the things that I knew were going to be helpful and I would do that.
13:39
Speaker 2: And I'm off on an event the next two days in London with another coach who's got two phenomenal days of speakers and I might only learn one thing, but I'm in a room with 150 motivated together, high action people, some of whom will still have a job and be, you know, perhaps work in their own business as a sideline.
14:04
Speaker 2: Some people are just there because they want to learn and be, you know, perhaps work in their own business as a sideline.
14:05
Speaker 2: Um, some people just there because they want to learn and be in communities, the.
14:09
Speaker 2: The most crazy thing I did out of it all was that, um, during pandemic, um, I joined a group of coaches a really fabulous speaking coach called Danny Wallace and a luxury wedding cake called Deep Bajwa, because the wedding cake business is very much my daughter's, but I do the background elements of it because she's quite poorly, you know.
14:30
Speaker 2: So she's got the creative brain stuff and I keep it all running in the background, and Danny and Deep put out a message one weekend that said it was in a lockdown just finishing.
14:42
Speaker 2: They were like right, we're all free, we've all met online, we're going to barcelona for the weekend.
14:48
Speaker 2: Who wants to come?
14:51
Speaker 1: and 29 women signed up, did you go?
14:55
Speaker 2: of course I did.
14:56
Speaker 2: It was brilliant.
15:00
Speaker 2: I not met a single person in person, I only knew them from online, but I think it just showed the trust that they built up and the way they'd done it.
15:12
Speaker 2: And I mean, I still in contact with them both and I made some really, really good friends on that trip.
15:18
Speaker 2: But we just went for four days, stayed in a beautiful hotel in Barcelona that had a lounge.
15:23
Speaker 2: We didn't have a sort of sessions or anything, but it was all good chat.
15:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, with like-minded people, inspirational people.
15:31
Speaker 2: And it was inspirational, you know and my family don't get it, you know I use on my holidays and everything sort of going off doing some of that with other people, but I just love it and I think I would say to anybody you know, if you see something, go and explore it, have the discovery call, have a think about it, find someone that's done it, find what they got out of it.
15:51
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean I'm.
15:54
Speaker 2: I think I mean I mean I'm in a mastermind.
15:56
Speaker 2: At the moment I'm in a Olympics mastermind.
15:58
Speaker 2: I'm working with um creative sass on my branding, um.
16:09
Speaker 2: I've got LinkedIn support and I don't think I'd come out with the same bounce if I didn't have those people.
16:13
Speaker 1: I was gonna say what do you think's been?
16:14
Speaker 1: Because obviously you know things cost money, don't they?
16:16
Speaker 1: They cost time, they cost money.
16:17
Speaker 1: Um, what's been the return?
16:20
Speaker 1: Do you think, though, of you investing in yourself?
16:23
Speaker 2: I think for me, there's been two levels of return.
16:25
Speaker 2: One is that, um, as, as a woman, I'm a nana, a passionate nana.
16:31
Speaker 2: Um, I'm a mum to two girls who have a still, you know, rely on me extensively.
16:38
Speaker 2: Um, I'm a carer for my daughter.
16:41
Speaker 2: Um, I do a fair bit of charity work as well and all of those things.
16:47
Speaker 2: I'm, I'm something, I'm in a box, but when I do this, I'm just Denise, so some of the return on investment is me being me I, and that I can't even begin to measure what that is.
17:06
Speaker 2: And the return on investment.
17:08
Speaker 2: I've got a.
17:08
Speaker 2: I still do some executive coaching, not as much as I used to do, but I've got a core client I've been working with for 18 months and the absolute joy I get from working with I'm working with the whole team, I'm coaching, I work as an unofficial ned, all that sort of stuff.
17:26
Speaker 2: I love those days and that interaction.
17:31
Speaker 2: Um, and so you know, when I have packed, you know sort of retired and stayed at home a couple times, my husband said to me god say, just go and get a job.
17:41
Speaker 2: You're not yourself when you're not doing it.
17:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's, and I think that comes down to the way my family was and all of that as well.
17:49
Speaker 2: So you know there's a lot of things out there that we do, that are in our roots, so I get that.
17:54
Speaker 2: But also, you know, we do have beautiful weekends away.
17:58
Speaker 2: I have a very nice shoe ward.
18:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, and um, I um.
18:04
Speaker 2: You know, I, you know I'm retired, I've got a pension, so this is extra.
18:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is, this is plus points yeah, yeah and I with joy pay with pay for the grandchildren's ballet and gymnastics and weekends.
18:22
Speaker 2: I and you know, because I don't have to think about it, it's not coming out of core funds, so I suppose that for me is enough of a return on investment.
18:31
Speaker 2: It's not as though, like in the days gone by when I've had a six-figure business and I'm looking at, you know, that bottom line and measuring it in the pounds, I think now it's about the measure of quality of life and satisfaction so you grew up, your dad was an entrepreneur.
18:48
Speaker 1: Is that right?
18:49
Speaker 2: he was, yeah, he had a business do you always?
18:52
Speaker 2: want to be an entrepreneur, then I don't know, I think it just, it just happened.
18:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I was always in jobs where I was pushing boundaries, um, so I started.
19:06
Speaker 2: Dad had a business building cranes all over the world and one of the highlights of the last few years was going to Kuwait and standing on the dock and seeing things that my dad built, seen all those months away from home.
19:21
Speaker 2: Um, mom was a head teacher and, um, and she was in charge of the deaf unit for the whole of the West Midlands and one of the pioneers in that.
19:31
Speaker 2: So they were very pioneering people.
19:35
Speaker 2: And when my dad retired he just started another business.
19:38
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's just in there.
19:40
Speaker 2: So I think part of it is that it's the way it was, um, but I think in my job.
19:46
Speaker 2: So I started in retail.
19:47
Speaker 2: Um, I've never wanted to do anything except work in a shop.
19:51
Speaker 2: Um, when you know the career coaching, ridiculous conversations they give you at school that are just pathetic.
19:57
Speaker 2: But you know, when I said no, I just want to work in a shop, they were so derisive and I thought I'll show you.
20:03
Speaker 2: I'll show you what working a shop means.
20:04
Speaker 2: And so I went and did a bunch of training program and which was all through the Birmingham bombings.
20:10
Speaker 2: So that was a really big grow-up period and then became very unsettled quite quickly, moved a lot in the early years but always moved up and eventually I mean the big thing for me was going to work for Next, and I worked in the West End, opened up big shops in the West End, including Knightsbridge, and it was when George Davis, who I next used to come in and walk the stockroom with you with a cup of tea and say, ok, so why isn't that sold?
20:42
Speaker 2: What's wrong with that?
20:43
Speaker 2: And that's when the CEO of the business was coming talking to a store manager.
20:48
Speaker 2: And it makes you grow, you know, it pushes you up.
20:52
Speaker 2: And he didn't want patitudes.
20:55
Speaker 2: And so then I became an area manager and then one day I went into my boss, took me into the head office and I worked in Leicester and commuted from Welling Garden to Leicester every day, which was nuts really.
21:09
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's what we did, that's what we did and ran, did and uh and ran an ops desk there.
21:14
Speaker 2: And then one day, um, he called me and he said I need to recruit um head of operations to look after all the area managers in the financial side of the business.
21:23
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I'm doing recruitment, okay, so I went out, did the project, did the whole things very georgetown.
21:29
Speaker 2: This um came back to him with a short list, engaged a recruiter, the whole lot, and he went yeah, you know what it's all about, you've got the job.
21:35
Speaker 2: And I went, what?
21:36
Speaker 2: He said your car's out there and he gave him the keys and that was it.
21:42
Speaker 2: I was like, went up in like you know, fiesta and came home in this big car, like, okay, so I did that, um, and then went off a mat leave for my first daughter.
21:57
Speaker 2: And I'd only been off about seven weeks and george rang me, said we need you back, and I was like I'm feeding this baby.
22:04
Speaker 2: No, I've got a job.
22:08
Speaker 2: I only you can do this.
22:09
Speaker 2: I mean, what do you do?
22:11
Speaker 2: Only you can do this, says the CEO.
22:13
Speaker 2: I mean pathetic.
22:14
Speaker 2: And I would say to anyone now, don't listen, don't yeah, you're flattered, I guess ran.
22:21
Speaker 2: My mum.
22:21
Speaker 2: Mum drove from Birmingham to Leicester, took hold of the baby.
22:24
Speaker 2: I went to George and he said we've got this project, we're launching next directory and I want you to be the GM.
22:29
Speaker 2: I was like okay, okay, anyway, we made it work, got a nanny, did all the things, learnt a lot.
22:36
Speaker 2: It was horrendous, um, but it was also joyous and, I think, probably one of the real highlights of my personal career.
22:46
Speaker 2: Um, I don't know if you ever remember the first directory, but you know we had to remember it.
22:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
22:51
Speaker 2: Well, I was on the I don't remember the first one, but I do remember, like the next directory, yeah yeah, well, actually the first, next directory, um, I was in charge of the contact center, um and uh, training all the staff and all that sort of stuff, and it was fantastic, it was a marvel this was really before online, wasn't it?
23:11
Speaker 2: it was the start and the and and.
23:13
Speaker 2: So this is the really big part of my career really was that at that point they were affiliated to Gratton's and they delivered in sort of 7 to 14 days and we were sitting in the boardroom and it was six weeks before print and it was 11 o'clock at night and I'd got a baby at home and I got to drive and we had chairs in the boardroom and they were on these.
23:36
Speaker 2: Like you know, it was on a wooden floor and they had all these like things on them.
23:39
Speaker 2: You could make them up and down and when he got a certain look in his eye it was wise to drop it down so you could sort of sink into the background.
23:45
Speaker 2: And he looked around.
23:47
Speaker 2: He said I'm not happy with this.
23:48
Speaker 2: Seven to 14 days.
23:49
Speaker 2: And we all started to sink and he said I think we can do it in 48 hours and we were six weeks to print and the room just went silent around.
24:00
Speaker 2: He said, denise, you head the project.
24:01
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I hadn't got a clue, I had no idea what's so that.
24:07
Speaker 2: But that's when relationships came into it and I don't know if anybody's listening from those days, but it was phenomenal and all the store managers and everybody.
24:15
Speaker 2: We set up what was the first click and collect and we did it and we launched it.
24:21
Speaker 2: It gave me a nervous breakdown.
24:23
Speaker 2: In all honesty, it genuinely did.
24:26
Speaker 2: I mean I just I was so poorly after it.
24:29
Speaker 1: Yeah.
24:30
Speaker 2: And so at that point I I just walked away and I went to be an estate agent for a few months.
24:37
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, so you actually left, left.
24:38
Speaker 1: Then you completely moved out, okay couldn't do it.
25:32
Speaker 2: Couldn't do it um did it, it's very high pressured.
25:35
Speaker 1: I can imagine it's probably still is now, you know it really is.
25:39
Speaker 2: But I'm very proud, you know, I've still got the first directory signed.
25:43
Speaker 2: I've got the pictures on the wall.
25:45
Speaker 2: You know it was a really pivotal moment, but not for me as a mum, and I think that sometimes did you feel guilty at all.
25:54
Speaker 1: I hate asking this because you know men don't always get asked it, but yeah, yeah yeah, I did.
25:59
Speaker 2: I did.
25:59
Speaker 2: I didn't just feel guilty for Sarah and my daughter, I felt guilty for my husband yeah.
26:05
Speaker 2: I felt, you know, that I was putting a lot on other people.
26:09
Speaker 2: I was expecting things of a nanny that I was never there to tell her what I wanted.
26:13
Speaker 2: You know, I think there was.
26:15
Speaker 2: It was lots of complex things, um, and also the expectation of me in the office in a business that was going, you know, in Next we, you know, we lived in porter cabins and it was really chill.
26:31
Speaker 2: And they got this partnership with Grattan where it was white tablecloths and silver service at lunch for the directors, who were primarily male, you know, and all of that and the clash of cultures really messed with my head.
26:44
Speaker 2: I didn't like that at all.
26:47
Speaker 2: I loved the business that Next was and that George created by giving us all the possibilities like he'd done for me so often over the years, and so you know that's when I learnt about values, culture.
27:02
Speaker 1: I was going to say there'll be people listening to this.
27:03
Speaker 1: Obviously there's a lot of mums listening to this and there'll be some people that have big jobs and are maybe in the midst of a big project and they've got children at home.
27:11
Speaker 1: They may be starting to feel that guilt.
27:13
Speaker 1: What would you say to them?
27:15
Speaker 1: You know how do you balance everything.
27:19
Speaker 2: I think we're now a long way on from that in terms of what's happened in time in terms of hybrid working.
27:25
Speaker 2: But then in some ways, as you know, we're not.
27:30
Speaker 2: I mean your experience.
27:31
Speaker 2: You know all over the place.
27:45
Speaker 2: When you're starting a family, it's very easy not to have the reality check on what you're going to do later and how you're going to manage, and all I'd say is get into a group of women who, blinking, know what this is like.
27:56
Speaker 2: You know there's so much that you can get from other women.
28:01
Speaker 2: I'm such an advocate of that and I still do it every day and it's I know it's not.
28:08
Speaker 2: It probably sounds really female focused, but for me that's what it is and they will help you.
28:13
Speaker 2: I learned, I've learned so much, so many tips, techniques, all of that.
28:17
Speaker 2: And have the plan in place.
28:19
Speaker 2: Don't just have the romance.
28:20
Speaker 2: You've got to have the plan in place.
28:22
Speaker 2: Don't just have the romance.
28:23
Speaker 2: You've got to have the plan because you've got to know.
28:24
Speaker 2: You know the the pre-mortem of having a baby is so important, but then, when you get into the job and you don't having the strength, have a coach, for goodness sake.
28:35
Speaker 2: Have a coach if you are in that heavyweight role, um, and doing all of that, you need a coach.
28:43
Speaker 2: You need someone that you can just pick up the phone to and go.
28:47
Speaker 2: Okay, you'll know the answer, but you need someone to just help pull it out.
28:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I never had the benefit of a coach until I went self-employed.
28:57
Speaker 2: I didn't, and it was only when I became a coach that I saw the value of a coach and started to meet women that had coaches and thought oh, okay, that was it.
29:07
Speaker 2: Then was it.
29:08
Speaker 2: You know it sounds fluffy, but it's not.
29:11
Speaker 1: Well, you think about athletes and stuff.
29:13
Speaker 1: They all have coaches, don't they Absolutely?
29:14
Speaker 1: Thinkers would have a voice coach, actors have acting coaches.
29:18
Speaker 1: It is definitely worth it, isn't it?
29:21
Speaker 1: Particularly if you are you know and want to get to the top of where you are you know, or even you know, even, just like you say, for that day-to-day helping you set those boundaries, understanding your values.
29:31
Speaker 2: And I think as well, you know, a lot of people worry about the financial side of having a coach and think the business should provide it.
29:37
Speaker 2: Well, I think the business, what the business provides, is different to what you would look for for yourself often.
29:42
Speaker 2: And so, having that conversation with yourself, I'm a huge fan of the empty chair technique of you know.
29:52
Speaker 2: Well, I do it in coaching as well.
29:53
Speaker 2: I, you know, is that you put yourself opposite the empty chair and you're coaching you in the empty chair, so you're literally taking yourself out of the moment that you're in and worried about all your situation and you talk to yourself as though you're not involved.
30:12
Speaker 2: And I still do that to this day empty chair.
30:16
Speaker 2: I think, okay, I need an empty chair technique.
30:18
Speaker 2: Okay, and that can be managing my daughters in their advanced age, because they say to me don't do that thing, mom.
30:23
Speaker 2: My daughters at their advanced age Because they say to me don't do that thing, mom, don't copy, don't coach me.
30:28
Speaker 2: But yeah, just have that conversation with yourself, find a space, find a room and have that conversation and coach yourself.
30:41
Speaker 2: But the business coaching will be very different in the main, unless you get a really enlightened business like Deloitte or something like that, that will give you those things.
30:52
Speaker 2: Um, so that's what I would say is yeah, have you got a coach?
30:56
Speaker 2: Have you really thought about it?
30:58
Speaker 2: Have you done the pre-mortems?
31:00
Speaker 2: Um, but world is so different when I first worked from home, when we, when we opened our first business, and myself and a business partner, um, we deliberately chose the office to be a long way from me, because I'm quite destructive in an office.
31:16
Speaker 2: All right, hey, yes, I'll go.
31:19
Speaker 2: What you doing?
31:20
Speaker 2: The whole thing that's.
31:22
Speaker 2: I just went an occasional time and we, we brainstormed and did all of that and so, um, she ran the office.
31:28
Speaker 2: Um, so I was very lonely because I was used to having big teams and all of that.
31:35
Speaker 2: Um, but I think, um, I learned at that time, um, a, the importance of an absolutely fantastic PA who, when I was on the ballet run because that's what I wanted to do would have me in everything and knew my diary and could manage it, and I think that is really important.
31:53
Speaker 2: I don't think you can be a senior woman anyone really without an executive PA that categorically knows everything about life, what you want to do, they're so ingrained.
32:07
Speaker 2: That makes a massive difference to me and something I've missed since becoming a solopreneur.
32:12
Speaker 2: Um, I do have a VA.
32:14
Speaker 2: She's fabulous, but it's not the same as when?
32:16
Speaker 2: no, it's not the same as it, because they might just do an hour a day or whatever so you know that I think is a is a really important part um, but I also learned the value um of when I was hybrid working.
32:27
Speaker 2: First of just going for a walk, all the things that the wellness coaches will tell you.
32:34
Speaker 2: Today, you know, you go and talk to a laughing yoga coach or something like that, and they will tell you that moment and and I call it oh, I'm gonna go and watch the butterflies for a bit.
32:43
Speaker 1: Just sit in the garden, let's go out and, I think, move away from the computer yeah, you know I don't.
32:49
Speaker 2: I don't know how you manage your day, but you know I used to be in there and all it's time for school pick up.
32:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is me, that is me to be honest, I'm like I'm yeah, I'm not, you're inspiring me.
32:59
Speaker 1: I'm looking out the window.
33:01
Speaker 1: I'm like maybe I should go out later, because I am very much like, oh my gosh, I've got until three o'clock, like type, like my life depends on it.
33:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you end up, if not otherwise, sometimes working late at night and doing all of those things.
33:14
Speaker 2: And I'm still guilty of that because I just got into a habit.
33:17
Speaker 2: But I'm quite effective at night.
33:19
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I mean mean they still moan at me here about having the laptop, like it's always there.
33:25
Speaker 2: But I'll get an idea, I'll just look it up so is I know that.
33:31
Speaker 1: Um, they obviously worked in recruitment and there'll be people maybe listening to this that want to know you know how, especially with the job market as it is, it's so tough for lots of people.
33:42
Speaker 1: How do you get noticed by a recruiter, find a good recruiter, build a relationship with a recruiter?
33:49
Speaker 1: And a lot of recruiters are sort of demonized.
33:51
Speaker 1: Um, yeah, but you know they are part of, you know a huge part of the job search industry.
33:57
Speaker 1: So how do you work with a recruiter?
34:00
Speaker 1: What would you say?
34:02
Speaker 2: I think the first thing I'd say is that, um, that yeah, I was a recruiter before online was a thing.
34:08
Speaker 2: I was a recruiter when you used to have to type your CV, put a stamp on it and watch a red post box and then we replied by post.
34:15
Speaker 2: Um, and the quality on both sides was about a thousand percent better than it is today, because the investment that went into the process was so much greater.
34:27
Speaker 2: Um, and I was one of those dinosaurs that thought when online came in first and it was all sort of like, um, all the outsourced indian piece and everything like that, I thought I'll never catch on.
34:37
Speaker 2: That.
34:37
Speaker 2: I'll never catch on.
34:38
Speaker 2: I was doing executive recruitment and I thought that was ridiculous idea.
34:43
Speaker 2: I I was.
34:44
Speaker 2: I could be much richer if I'd put it out earlier, however, um, I'm you know I'm a fan of Indeed and all those things.
34:53
Speaker 2: What I'm not a fan of is Fastest Finger First and um, I've got a career journal which is called Would you Put a Stamp on it?
35:02
Speaker 2: I've got a career journal which is called Would you Put a Stamp on it?
35:04
Speaker 2: And I think if everyone started looking for a job before they needed to look for a job, that that would be a much better place to start.
35:13
Speaker 2: So when you start to look for a job, it isn't just going on Indeed and seeing what's available and using a stored CV.
35:24
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're a victim of some of that as well yeah, and you get the cvs and you can't see the relevant.
35:29
Speaker 1: I'm like why have you applied?
35:31
Speaker 2: for this, and then we're demonized because we don't get back or we don't we don't get back with personalized response that is the thing that absolutely cracks me up and and I am doing a little bit of recruitment at the moment, um, as a support for one of my clients um, so I ran the LinkedIn ad, um, which I took down after two days because I couldn't cope with the volume um, and then, and I went to a recruiter because the service was just completely different.
36:01
Speaker 2: It was completely different.
36:03
Speaker 2: So I think that I would say to everybody, before you even think about applying for a job, the minute that uncertainty or that desire to do more, or I'm being missed for promotion or whatever the feeling is, that comes in, stop and think.
36:23
Speaker 2: And I call it project you.
36:25
Speaker 2: All my courses are an offshoot of project you, because at work, when we're given a project, someone says right, I want you to go and build the fourth bridge.
36:35
Speaker 2: You don't just go, oh, I'll just go online and press a few buttons and it'll all happen.
36:39
Speaker 2: You go, okay, what's my journey?
36:41
Speaker 2: What's the purpose?
36:42
Speaker 2: Who do I need involved in that?
36:43
Speaker 2: What the processes I need to put my journey?
36:44
Speaker 2: What's the purpose?
36:44
Speaker 2: Who do I need involved in that?
36:44
Speaker 2: What the processes I need to put in place?
36:46
Speaker 2: What's my budget?
36:47
Speaker 2: Where do I need to go?
36:48
Speaker 2: What's the end destination?
36:50
Speaker 2: How am I going to celebrate that?
36:52
Speaker 2: And so it is.
36:53
Speaker 2: We project isn't pressing buttons online.
36:57
Speaker 2: If you're going for a job, you are the project, you are project you.
37:01
Speaker 2: And if I just wish I could get that thought process really early on with people.
37:09
Speaker 1: Um so what does project you involve then?
37:11
Speaker 1: So if I was one of your clients, what would be some of the things you would suggest I'd do as part of project you?
37:17
Speaker 2: so first of all, I'd start to think about values what's important to you?
37:21
Speaker 2: I'd start to think about the jobs I've had, where where I felt good, why I felt good, where I haven't felt good, why I haven't felt good.
37:29
Speaker 2: So then I'd start to think my skills.
37:31
Speaker 2: What are my skills?
37:33
Speaker 2: What did I want to do when I was growing up?
37:36
Speaker 2: What's my autobiography?
37:37
Speaker 2: Look like you know I wanted to be a.
37:40
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, this is this is the most favorite part of my career coaching program.
37:44
Speaker 2: I start with autobiography.
37:46
Speaker 2: What you know, tell me about your life, highs and lows, what those impacts been on you, because the impact on people's careers is phenomenal when they actually go back and look at it.
37:56
Speaker 2: And then you piece it all out and you start to see some of the thing, reasons why you've got certain skills, where you've've got hang-ups, you know what it's going to be, because if you do that, then you've got your foundations in place.
38:09
Speaker 2: You know where to build from.
38:10
Speaker 2: So I start with autobiography.
38:12
Speaker 2: Then I always run alongside.
38:15
Speaker 2: I have an exercise that says if money was no object?
38:20
Speaker 2: And so if money was no object, what would I do with my life?
38:25
Speaker 2: What does it look like?
38:28
Speaker 2: And then we run an ideas bank, so you've got loads and loads of things put inside.
38:33
Speaker 2: You can put anything you like into ideas banks, and so you do all that.
38:37
Speaker 2: And then it's amazing, you start to see the patterns.
38:40
Speaker 2: You can see that you were interested in that because of that, because of that, and it's actually that and actually what careers need that?
38:47
Speaker 2: Okay, so am I in the right job?
38:50
Speaker 2: And you need to ask yourself that each time.
38:53
Speaker 2: You know it is part of that baseline process.
38:56
Speaker 2: And then, and we get to a point, we think, yeah, project's ready to launch.
39:07
Speaker 2: And then you go, but if you wouldn't put a stamp on it, don't flip it, apply for it what about people?
39:15
Speaker 1: because I could speak to a lot of people that just hate their jobs.
39:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, they want to change.
39:20
Speaker 1: They, you know, maybe don't know what they want to do, what would be, and you must have people that come to you that hate their jobs.
39:27
Speaker 1: Um, what you know, what's your advice to them?
39:32
Speaker 2: literally just do what I've said.
39:33
Speaker 2: You start with that, you start with that um, and then, um, we, we go through.
39:38
Speaker 2: My process has got the firework process.
39:41
Speaker 2: It's got three stages where you go, you explore, so you go back through everything, you, and that takes six to seven weeks sometimes, um, to do that.
39:51
Speaker 2: And then you go into a dream phase what, if what, could I do?
39:55
Speaker 2: How would I need to do that, what the implications of doing that, um, and then you go into an action phase and on the dream phase for the people who really hate their jobs, if you've done the first part, the explore phase, really well, you'll start to see again that the reasons and the why, um, and and there I think I've said I've probably told you this before, but I mentioned it on the call is that sometimes it isn't about the job.
40:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, work and life, and and and when I'm career coaching, I look at work and life balance.
40:29
Speaker 2: It isn't just about one or the other.
40:31
Speaker 2: It has to have balance.
40:33
Speaker 2: And so you know, I've got one client who was head of IT and really, really unhappy, miserable, the whole lot, and discovered, you know, being a musician in his younger career and had been about to launch records and all sorts of life had happened and got in the way.
40:51
Speaker 2: And you know he was just phenomenal and so he's actually still a head of IT.
40:59
Speaker 2: But in addition to that is a, is a um, a trustee for a local charity, and he's writing music programs for autistic children.
41:09
Speaker 1: Yeah.
41:10
Speaker 2: And so the job itself was actually okay and we also did some tweaks in the job, went onto a nine day fortnight, so things.
41:18
Speaker 2: And you know, got somebody else who set up a side hustle with a PR agency she said a marketing PR agency and so it isn't always the whole job that needs to change, it's just working it out.
41:30
Speaker 2: But then I've got other people who have done complete changes and it's been fantastic.
41:36
Speaker 2: But there will be, you know, prices you have to pay.
41:39
Speaker 2: But you know, as long as you and I'm sure you know this from the work that you do as long as you're marketed'm sure you know this from the work that you do as long as you're marketed correctly, it isn't always about the salary that you have to pull back on.
41:50
Speaker 2: Um, you, you know a lot of people will value so much what you've learned in your career.
41:56
Speaker 2: So positioning your CV and your LinkedIn profile, your personal marketing and branding in the right way, you know you can often still just move over in the same way in in the same sort of salary bracket, because I know that is a real, you know, stopper for a lot of people.
42:12
Speaker 2: They just think I can't afford to earn less.
42:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got these benefits in my job.
42:16
Speaker 2: I can't do without got family.
42:18
Speaker 2: I must have health, all of those things.
42:20
Speaker 2: But they can all be worked through, they can all be right through yeah, it's really true.
42:25
Speaker 1: You know, I listened to him saying and I always just stuck with me um, marie folio, um, who said everything is figureoutable.
42:33
Speaker 1: Really good, isn't it?
42:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah and actually, I think that is true.
42:36
Speaker 1: If something does feel really tough, everything is, you know, figureoutable.
42:40
Speaker 1: So tell us, how do you work with people then?
42:43
Speaker 1: What sort of services do you offer?
42:45
Speaker 2: So I've got.
42:46
Speaker 2: I'm in a bit of a transition, but historically I'm a career coach, I'm an executive coach and I work with senior leaders and their teams and that's a lot about internal development and growth, which I absolutely love to do.
43:02
Speaker 2: And you know, seeing, I'm working with the whole senior leadership team at the moment two of them just being promoted and supporting them as they move into their new roles, so that's really good fun.
43:13
Speaker 2: But I also have a one-to-one career coaching programme which can be three or six months with very clear goals on, and that is, I think, think, probably something that gives me so much joy I can't even begin to sort of talk about.
43:32
Speaker 2: You know, I can't even that fills your cup.
43:34
Speaker 1: It's probably as much as it fills your client's cup it does.
43:38
Speaker 2: I mean in in august.
43:39
Speaker 2: You know I had five clients, some of whom I'd actually we'd finished the program six months before, but I you know the job's not done till it's done.
43:46
Speaker 2: So we might have done the program, but I'm still in a touch base on a whatsapp group and all that sort of thing, because to me that's really important.
43:53
Speaker 2: It doesn't finish at the end, it finishes when it's done.
43:57
Speaker 2: Um, I don't measure things by the grain, as my old director used to say no teaspoons around here, please.
44:03
Speaker 2: And so I had five actually hit major jobs in August, and it was actually my birthday weekend and my husband said you're more excited about the placements and there's no financial gain to me in the placements, it's just pure satisfaction.
44:19
Speaker 2: As I was about my big party, you know it was really funny and I celebrated it just as much.
44:27
Speaker 2: So I do that.
44:28
Speaker 2: But I'm also just about to launch an online programme and, as you know, we've got the Female Career Summit on October the 16th.
44:38
Speaker 2: I have got seven phenomenal female coaches I cannot begin to tell you how excited I am with the lineup all of whom have got something to add to women looking to change jobs, go back to work.
44:52
Speaker 2: Maybe some people are self-employed and thinking should I get a job?
44:57
Speaker 2: Because I'm seeing a little bit of that happening as well, where people are perhaps finding that hard.
45:02
Speaker 2: What should I do?
45:03
Speaker 2: yeah and then you know just the people who are like I'm just not get this move.
45:08
Speaker 2: I, where's my promotion, for goodness sake?
45:11
Speaker 2: You know all of that.
45:12
Speaker 2: And so, honestly, we've got such good speakers oh, I mean, so you're talking about linkedin, and then I've got people talking about fear, self-confidence, um communication techniques, the whole piece, really so.
45:27
Speaker 2: And then I'll be launching an online course, which um will be available for people to buy from me direct.
45:34
Speaker 2: So, yeah, that's how it works brilliant.
45:38
Speaker 1: And then what's next?
45:38
Speaker 1: You got the course.
45:39
Speaker 1: Do you ever plan to retire, retire?
45:43
Speaker 2: I think it work will retire me rather than I retire it.
45:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, so um, I I can't see.
45:50
Speaker 2: I mean, even if I moved to doing more online, I still plan to.
45:54
Speaker 1: I get the feeling, even if you moved to do something slightly different, you still wouldn't be able to shut that laptop I think that that's something you get so much joy from work laptop.
46:06
Speaker 2: I think that's something you get so much joy from work Do, and I love helping and I love networking as well.
46:12
Speaker 2: I love that.
46:12
Speaker 2: You know, when someone says I mean you've been on the end of me so.
46:17
Speaker 1: I got a big list of people to connect with and I love that.
46:22
Speaker 2: You know, I love going and listen to people thinking it's not for me, but crikey, they're really good Because that's the thing, isn't it?
46:28
Speaker 2: You can hear people and they're not for you.
46:30
Speaker 2: Don't discard it, because that's a little gem that one day might help somebody else and maybe, who knows, what goes around comes around, it might help you in the future.
46:40
Speaker 2: I went I I've never really subscribed very much to website SEO and all that sort of stuff.
46:48
Speaker 2: I'm really a tech foe, but I really don't like it.
46:51
Speaker 2: Um but um.
46:53
Speaker 2: I went on a on a one day course through enterprise business and someone was talking about the value of SEO, um, on your website, and so I thought, all right, now, good.
47:05
Speaker 2: I mean, they say now it's not so important.
47:07
Speaker 2: But I went off to play with it and did a few tweaks.
47:09
Speaker 2: The next week I got my biggest client ever because I'd put in recruitment and executive coaching and this client was looking for a recruiter who was also an executive coach and I'd also put in headhunting because I'm obviously an executive recruiter.
47:27
Speaker 2: So that was my background and those were the models they wanted.
47:29
Speaker 2: And here I am.
47:31
Speaker 2: I'm still working with them.
47:32
Speaker 2: We're nearly two years in.
47:33
Speaker 2: It's my favorite sort of thing I do in that world, and that was me going on a 37 pound course yes, you don't know where things can lead you have inspired me because you know I've been on the fact.
47:47
Speaker 1: I got invited to a retreat the end of the day and I was on the fence because it was expensive.
47:51
Speaker 1: Well, you know it's gonna be a few thousand pounds that I've been on the fence all week.
47:55
Speaker 1: Shall I sign up?
47:56
Speaker 1: Shall I not sign up?
47:57
Speaker 1: It's in spain, but I'm gonna go finish this call and go and sign up because you have inspired me as well.
48:06
Speaker 2: Oh, I did one in portugal last year.
48:07
Speaker 1: It was phenomenal I'll give you the detail.
48:10
Speaker 1: Brilliant, thank you so much.
48:14
Speaker 1: How can people find you then and connect with you?
48:17
Speaker 2: okay, so probably the website's.
48:19
Speaker 2: The easiest, wwwelevatecareerscoachcom um.
48:23
Speaker 2: Just drop me a message.
48:25
Speaker 2: And the other best way, of course, good old linkedin, and I'm pretty active on linkedin and I'm just on denise matthews career coach.
48:32
Speaker 2: It finds me straight away.
48:34
Speaker 1: Somehow linkedin knows who I am so well, we'll put all the links in the show notes.
48:38
Speaker 2: Thank you so much denise, and thank you for having me on liz.
48:41
Speaker 2: Thank you.
48:43
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like a Mum podcast.
48:48
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
48:55
Speaker 1: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
49:02
Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn and Instagram.
49:07
Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.