Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / R. Kelly victim recounts life behind mansion walls

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R. Kelly victim recounts life behind mansion walls · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Do you know another parent or expecting parent. Are you
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Speaker 1: a gift, not another one ze. Find out how to
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Speaker 1: I'd rather have that any day of the week than
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Speaker 1: Justice Nation, go to crime stops here dot com. I
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Speaker 1: mean it, see Grace. This is crime stories in our update.
1:35
Speaker 1: Breaking news in the Tera Grinstead disappearance and murder to
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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned for instance, expert author of Blood
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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joe Scott breaking news out
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Speaker 1: of a courtroom and the Tera Grinstead case. And no,
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Speaker 1: the Dukes have not gone to trial. This was another
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Speaker 1: type of hearing altogether. What happened? What did you learn?
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Nancy. Yeah, it's not a trial. This
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Speaker 1: is a bond hearing. This is just to determine if
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Speaker 1: this fellow is going to be let out of custody
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Speaker 1: so that he can, you know, plan for his own
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Speaker 1: defense and make money. And they talked about this, that
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Speaker 1: he actually has a job waiting for him, working in
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Speaker 1: the back of the kitchen in this thing like you
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Speaker 1: would you know, uh, kind of surprising to me, and
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Speaker 1: that they would let him loose. Listen, tons of information
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Speaker 1: came out they allowed in this in this process for
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Speaker 1: the GBI to get up on the stand, they talked
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Speaker 1: about in intimate detail, how how he had admitted to
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Speaker 1: burning the body, disposing the body. And what was really
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Speaker 1: amazing is they painted this picture of him going back
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Speaker 1: out several times to reinitiate the fire to render down
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Speaker 1: Teragrinstead's body. I was just perplexed by this. Nancy, our friend,
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Speaker 1: private investigator and a long crime anchor, Vincent Hill, was
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Speaker 1: in the courtroom for Ryan Duke's bond hearing. The courtroom
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Speaker 1: was packed. I was in there for the entire four
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Speaker 1: and a half hours. I was actually outside when Ryan
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Speaker 1: Duke was escorted from the van. It was a very
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Speaker 1: nondescript Chrysler van. He was in shackles, he was in handcuffs.
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Speaker 1: He didn't say anything even when asked was he hopeful
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Speaker 1: of the bond? But when you got in the courtroom,
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Speaker 1: it was a pack courtroom. The entire middle section and
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Speaker 1: the entire left section were all supporters of Ryan Duke.
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Speaker 1: On the front row of the right section, the far
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Speaker 1: right section, you had Terra's stepmother, her dad, some other relatives.
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Speaker 1: Directly behind them was the GBI agent who's been working
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Speaker 1: on the case, and a few other law enforcement All
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Speaker 1: in all, the majority of the people in the courtroom
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Speaker 1: were there in support of Ryan Duke. The Georgia Bureau
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Speaker 1: of Investigation has been notorious for keeping details of the
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Speaker 1: Terra Grinstead case secret for years, but there were major
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Speaker 1: revelations in this hearing. The GBI dropped a bombshell. Now
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Speaker 1: we had heard about this latex glove found outside of
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Speaker 1: Terras Grinstead's home, which had male DNA which was unknown,
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Speaker 1: But yesterday the GBI said they obtained the search warrant
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Speaker 1: obtain Ryan Duke's DNA. That DNA matched that DNA on
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Speaker 1: the glove. It was also mixed with Tara Grinstead DNA,
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Speaker 1: and they also recovered a partial pom print that listed
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Speaker 1: to Ryan Duke. That latex glove found in Tera Grinstead's
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Speaker 1: yard has been the subject of major speculation for years.
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Speaker 1: Now we finally know investigators did find DNA on it
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Speaker 1: linked to the defendant, Ryan Duke. Duke defense lawyer Ashley
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Speaker 1: Merchant appears to have used this bond hearing as a
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Speaker 1: way to lock in the GBI agent's testimony, but in
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Speaker 1: the end her client will not be given bond while
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Speaker 1: he awaits trial in the Tera Grinstead murder. The judge
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Speaker 1: heard a lot of evidence during the bond hearing. It
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Speaker 1: was more like a trial if you will then a
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Speaker 1: bond hearing. Of course, the defense was presenting evidence during
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Speaker 1: this bond hearing, but the judge at the end of it,
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Speaker 1: he took less than thirty sections to say, hey, I'm
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Speaker 1: denying your bond because you could be a flight risk
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Speaker 1: or you can intimidate witnesses. And one of the things
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Speaker 1: that Ashley Merchant tried to bring up was, oh, well,
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Speaker 1: the fact of this drug used that he's suicidal. You know,
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Speaker 1: it hasn't really been proven because the GBI didn't do
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Speaker 1: a drug test while he was being interrogated. He wasn't
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Speaker 1: buying it. He denied the bond. He also denied currently
5:16
Speaker 1: right now a change of venue that they were receiving
5:18
Speaker 1: as well. Thanks Vincent Hill. Nancy Grace will follow this
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Speaker 1: case closely as it moves toward a trial. We're also
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Speaker 1: today following the disappearance of a twelve year old boy
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Speaker 1: from Mobile, Alabama, Ian Lee Clark, last scene Saturday at
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Speaker 1: his home. Police believe he left in a black two
5:33
Speaker 1: thousand and nine Chevrolet Trailblazer with an Alabama license plate
5:37
Speaker 1: damage to the back driver side door. It was his
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Speaker 1: grandmother's car he may have been driving. They're not sure
5:44
Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com reporter Lee Egan just talked to
5:46
Speaker 1: Ian's mom. The mother says he's with someone, probably older.
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Speaker 1: She's just not sure who. He has a couple of
5:51
Speaker 1: friends and none of them know where he could be. Initially,
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Speaker 1: police thought he was out for a joy ride, so
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Speaker 1: they did not register the car tag until Monday. But
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Speaker 1: he's been missing since Saturday, anywhere from nine thirty am
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Speaker 1: to noon, because that's the last time Stanley saw him.
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Speaker 1: Ian Lee Clark's mom fears her son was taken by
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Speaker 1: an adult he met on social media. After the boy
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Speaker 1: posted he wanted to find a girlfriend. She said that
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Speaker 1: he said, I'm twelve years old. My name is Ian Monday.
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Speaker 1: He's got by different name on social media. His last
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Speaker 1: name was still Lundy. He said he was twelve years
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Speaker 1: old looking for girls to hang out with, open for anything,
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Speaker 1: and she didn't know about this account until later till
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Speaker 1: after he already left, so she had no idea he
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Speaker 1: was even talking on social media at all under a
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Speaker 1: different name. There's no chance he's with his father. The
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Speaker 1: mother does have soul custody, but the father is completely cleared.
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Speaker 1: He's not with his father. He did not have permission
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Speaker 1: to take his grandmother's car. He's not with his grandmother.
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Speaker 1: Ian Lee Clark is a white male with green eyes,
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Speaker 1: brown hair, and he is big for age twelve, stands
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Speaker 1: five foot six weighs one hundred and eighty pounds. Last scene,
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Speaker 1: he was wearing a gray hoodie and khaki pants. If
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Speaker 1: you see Ian or know anything about his disappearance, called
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Speaker 1: the Mobile, Alabama Police Department at two five one two
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Speaker 1: O eight seven thousand, or dial nine one one. See photos,
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Speaker 1: details and updates on Nancy Grace's crime and justice website,
7:20
Speaker 1: Crime online dot com Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Initially,
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Speaker 1: I met R. Kelly by going to nih trial. I
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Speaker 1: met him when I was fourteen, and I was like
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Speaker 1: on the fence and I wanted to know, like, did
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Speaker 1: he really do what everyone said he did. Here is
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Speaker 1: a man who is going on trial for having sex
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Speaker 1: for the underage girl, and yet you had women not
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Speaker 1: supporting the victim but supporting the guy who was going
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Speaker 1: on trial. I screamed at the top of my lungs,
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Speaker 1: what is wrong with this person? His poor decisions have
8:02
Speaker 1: ruined so many laughs. He destroyed my family. You are
8:05
Speaker 1: hearing from the NBC News Dayline. R Kelly's lifetime Surviving
8:11
Speaker 1: R Kelly, I mean as he grace, this is crime Stories.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. My big question is,
8:16
Speaker 1: with all of these women now speaking out, how is
8:22
Speaker 1: this guy still walking free? And yes, you know, I've
8:28
Speaker 1: got a defense attorney with me right now, and I
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Speaker 1: know he has presumed in a son until proven guilty.
8:33
Speaker 1: I get it. I went to law school just like
8:35
Speaker 1: everybody else did. That's a lawyer. But this is overwhelming.
8:39
Speaker 1: And with me right now is a very special guest,
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Speaker 1: Lisa van Allen that I met, and just her poise
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Speaker 1: and her emotion, her recounting her time with R Kelly,
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Speaker 1: the musical superstar nearly broke my heart. And I'm not
9:02
Speaker 1: quite sure why cops and prosecutors aren't making a move
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Speaker 1: on R Kelly. Based on Lisa Vanna Allen alone, also
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Speaker 1: with me rater online dot com investigator reporter Alexis Terreschuk,
9:15
Speaker 1: p I cop turned private investigator and author of Playbook
9:18
Speaker 1: to a Murder. Vincent Hill Doctor Bethany Marshall, Boy, do
9:22
Speaker 1: I need a shrink on this one? Psychoanalyst out of
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Speaker 1: La Nicole de Board, former felony prosecutor, now defense attorney
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Speaker 1: Lisa Van Allen with me. Lisa, at this moment, there
9:36
Speaker 1: is a father and mother out there who claims that R. Kelly,
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Speaker 1: the musical superstar. You know him best, probably from I
9:46
Speaker 1: Believe I Can Fly, which shot to the top of
9:49
Speaker 1: the charts, that's his. A father and mother of a
9:53
Speaker 1: girl say their daughter was ninety pounds and looked like
9:58
Speaker 1: a prisoner after she returned from the singer's tour bus
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Speaker 1: and screamed quote like a mad woman at the mention
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Speaker 1: of R. Kelly's name. Now, these quote rumors have been
10:12
Speaker 1: swirling for years, and I recall when R. Kelly was prosecuted.
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Speaker 1: I mean it took a darned videotape being sent to
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Speaker 1: the prosecutor's office. I guess the word of the victims
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Speaker 1: wasn't enough, so they go forward with a video of R.
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Speaker 1: Kelly not only having sex with a minor that's called
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Speaker 1: statutory rape according to the prosecution, but urinating on her
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Speaker 1: and in her mouth. Okay, the jury acquitted him, claiming
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Speaker 1: that they didn't know if the girl was underage. Okay,
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Speaker 1: Lisa Van Allen, thank you again for being with us.
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Speaker 1: Could you please, as best as you can tell us
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Speaker 1: how you met R Kelly and what happened after that?
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Speaker 1: I met him and nineteen ninety eight at the Home
11:04
Speaker 1: Alone video shoot, I actually went with a friend of
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Speaker 1: mine's girlfriends. She was an extra and I went with
11:11
Speaker 1: her and I was an extra as well, and he
11:13
Speaker 1: actually had his cousin come up to me and told
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Speaker 1: me that he wanted to meet me. I wasn't sure
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Speaker 1: who he was when he told me. He said, Rob
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Speaker 1: wants to meet you. And I was asking who Rob was,
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Speaker 1: and he said R Kelly. So I went over to him.
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Speaker 1: I was, you know, surprised because I was only seventeen
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Speaker 1: years old, so I didn't expect to meet him. There
11:35
Speaker 1: were tongues of grown women there, strippers and other you
11:39
Speaker 1: know things like that that he could have been interested
11:42
Speaker 1: in meeting. But he picked out the youngest girl in
11:45
Speaker 1: the crowd and I want to re met him. And
11:49
Speaker 1: he asked me how old I was and I told
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Speaker 1: him I was seventeen. His first question, well, his second
11:55
Speaker 1: question was will your mother let you come to Chicago.
11:59
Speaker 1: Hold One for those of you just joining me, an
12:02
Speaker 1: alleged victim, the superstar R Kelly, the creator of I
12:07
Speaker 1: Believe I Can Fly. Hold On just a moment, Doctor
12:11
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, let me ask Lisa one more question, Lisa,
12:15
Speaker 1: was this before or after he was tried on that
12:18
Speaker 1: video with the fourteen year old girl before? So, Dodtor,
12:21
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall. The first thing he did, and Lisa Van
12:25
Speaker 1: Allen has been consistent every time she's told her story.
12:29
Speaker 1: The first thing he did. He seeks her out. There's
12:31
Speaker 1: all the strippers, grown women everywhere. He comes over to
12:35
Speaker 1: a teen girl and says, how old are you? What
12:39
Speaker 1: does that tell you, Dodtor Bethany. It tells me that
12:42
Speaker 1: this is his offending pattern. He wants underage girls miners,
12:47
Speaker 1: and he wants girls who are pliable over whom he
12:51
Speaker 1: can have control. And you know R Kelly is setting
12:56
Speaker 1: up a sex cult, so what is he going to do.
12:59
Speaker 1: He's going to go towards the youngest, the most vulnerable
13:04
Speaker 1: members of any group, and he's going to recruit them.
13:07
Speaker 1: He's on a recruiting mission. That's what it tells me.
13:09
Speaker 1: Back to Lisa Van Allen, she claims that R. Kelly
13:16
Speaker 1: took advantage of her sexually as a young girl, and
13:20
Speaker 1: I believe her. I believe her standing on her own
13:25
Speaker 1: because I've met her. We're not just some disembodied voices
13:28
Speaker 1: over the airwaves. I have met Lisa Vanna Allen. I
13:33
Speaker 1: have looked her in the eye. I've spoken to her
13:36
Speaker 1: on and off camera. I have evaluated her credibility, her demeanor,
13:41
Speaker 1: her the degree of detail. I've compared her current statements
13:45
Speaker 1: to many, many previous statements for inconsistencies and corroboration. And
13:51
Speaker 1: I can tell you, as a veteran felony prosecutor, if
13:56
Speaker 1: I were a better I would put money that Lisa
13:58
Speaker 1: Van Allen is telling the truth, and I believe a
14:02
Speaker 1: jury would agree with me. Listen, when we first started
14:06
Speaker 1: having sex, Rob was behind the camera and I started
14:09
Speaker 1: popping the tapes in to see what was on them.
14:13
Speaker 1: But I came across the one with me, him and
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Speaker 1: the fourteen year old bootleg copies. The tape start showing
14:20
Speaker 1: up around the country. This is the one that makes
14:24
Speaker 1: it almost impossible for people to pretend that they did
14:28
Speaker 1: not know that this person had a thing for little girls.
14:33
Speaker 1: Chicago sometimes contacted me to view tapes that possibly had
14:39
Speaker 1: girls on it that I may have known. That was her,
14:42
Speaker 1: my niece for sure, and that was him. Police are
14:46
Speaker 1: investigating a video allegedly showing the R and B singer
14:49
Speaker 1: having sex with a fourteen year old girl. Chicago Police
14:53
Speaker 1: Development is currently seeking to arrest mister Kelly. Hey, guys,
14:57
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Speaker 1: you for being her partner. So, Lisa Van Allen R.
16:31
Speaker 1: Kelly comes up to you, amongst all the strippers and
16:35
Speaker 1: the women ground women, he picks out a skinny little
16:39
Speaker 1: girl and then what happens says how old are you?
16:42
Speaker 1: Then what happens? And will your mom will let you
16:44
Speaker 1: come to my town? Right? And then, I mean, of
16:47
Speaker 1: course he knows I'm not going to ask my mother.
16:50
Speaker 1: It's a video shoot, and there's no we didn't have
16:52
Speaker 1: cell phones, you know, back then like now. So I'm
16:55
Speaker 1: assuming he asked that question just to see if I
16:58
Speaker 1: would agree to come pretty much, you know what I mean? So,
17:02
Speaker 1: um yeah, so after that, then, um, so what did
17:05
Speaker 1: you What did you say? But yeah, I forget my
17:08
Speaker 1: mother would allow me to come. But of course I
17:10
Speaker 1: didn't ask her, you get what I mean? And that
17:14
Speaker 1: started it. Listen. R Kelly is arrested on the Chicago charges.
17:20
Speaker 1: The charges they filed against him were not statutory rape charges.
17:26
Speaker 1: They filed child pornography charges. It's the same penalties, but
17:31
Speaker 1: is easier to prove if you cannot hint it down
17:34
Speaker 1: to a specific date. There was no date on the table.
17:38
Speaker 1: What about the child? He ultimately had to face the
17:44
Speaker 1: charges in a Chicago courtroom. He please not guilty and
17:49
Speaker 1: post his bail and he's released. After R Kelly, please
17:57
Speaker 1: not guilty go straight to a South Side church. He
18:03
Speaker 1: goes straight to an event where he is admired by
18:06
Speaker 1: young children. Here he is being prosecuted for allegedly having
18:11
Speaker 1: sexual underage girl, and ministers, civil rights leaders in the
18:16
Speaker 1: city Chicago wanted to play up the side of him
18:21
Speaker 1: that did the I believe like cam fuck, and not
18:24
Speaker 1: the side of him with the runting lyrics that kind
18:27
Speaker 1: of went along with possibly having sex with the underage girl.
18:30
Speaker 1: You are hearing from Surviving R Kelly on Lifetime. As
18:35
Speaker 1: we all know, the Supers musical superstar R Kelly was
18:38
Speaker 1: arrested on child porn charges for making that grainy video
18:42
Speaker 1: with a fourteen year old girl in a sex act,
18:46
Speaker 1: and in the video you can clearly see a mole
18:49
Speaker 1: on the back of R. Kelly's back, which is the
18:53
Speaker 1: mole on his back, But the girl would refuse to
18:58
Speaker 1: admit that it was her, so the state ran up
19:01
Speaker 1: against rock in a hard spot because they couldn't definitely
19:05
Speaker 1: prove it was her. But Lisa Van Allen is with
19:08
Speaker 1: me who lived with R. Kelly, who I believe is
19:11
Speaker 1: one of his victims. Lisa van Allen, do you believe
19:15
Speaker 1: the girl was fourteen years old and that porn type?
19:19
Speaker 1: I know she was fourteen because we actually had a
19:23
Speaker 1: you know, a threesome with her, and at the time
19:27
Speaker 1: he told me she was sixteen years old. I later
19:31
Speaker 1: found out that she was two years younger than that.
19:33
Speaker 1: So because we were headed to one of his video shoots.
19:37
Speaker 1: On the way there, she told me that she was
19:41
Speaker 1: going to be ginning a PC cruiser for her sixteenth birthday.
19:45
Speaker 1: By me doing the math, you know of how long
19:48
Speaker 1: ago the first encounter was, it was two years prior
19:51
Speaker 1: to that. So if you're just about the term sixteen
19:55
Speaker 1: in a few weeks and that would have made you
19:57
Speaker 1: fourteen when we had the sexual encounter and the hape
20:00
Speaker 1: that was on trial, she looked exactly the same, had
20:02
Speaker 1: the same hairstyle, the same, the same, just everything, everything
20:06
Speaker 1: was exactly the same, the same, It was even in
20:08
Speaker 1: the same room. Well, I mean, Lisa, you had a
20:12
Speaker 1: threesome weather right, But I think you gotten to know
20:14
Speaker 1: her fairly well, and you saw her, You saw her
20:18
Speaker 1: more of her than any of us have seen. And
20:20
Speaker 1: I'm not judging. I don't care who does what with
20:23
Speaker 1: who unless it is non consensual or there's a minor involved.
20:29
Speaker 1: And I think everyone is so in awe, not me
20:35
Speaker 1: but other people of R. Kelly that he has literally
20:39
Speaker 1: gotten away with felonies for decades. I mean, Lisa, his
20:46
Speaker 1: marriage to Eliah back and I just all the time
20:50
Speaker 1: of my head nineteen ninety six, she was fifteen, and
20:53
Speaker 1: he coerced her to lie on the marriage certificate to
20:58
Speaker 1: marry her exactly. And then when it came out that
21:01
Speaker 1: the certificate was a fraud, her parents had a fit,
21:05
Speaker 1: I'm sure, and they got the thing annulled and she
21:09
Speaker 1: would never speak of R. Kelly as my understanding, Lisa, well,
21:13
Speaker 1: I know he told me that they had to think
21:14
Speaker 1: called pins and eyeballs. So no matter if it was
21:17
Speaker 1: and her eyeballs or they wouldn't speak about it. So
21:23
Speaker 1: I want to go back to you, Lisa Van Allen
21:26
Speaker 1: with me who was lured into R Kelly's web. So
21:30
Speaker 1: he comes up to you on this video shoot. He
21:34
Speaker 1: picks you out of all these grown women. You're just
21:36
Speaker 1: a skinny little team girl, ask if you can come
21:39
Speaker 1: to his town, which I assume with Chicago. Did you go? Yes?
21:43
Speaker 1: I did. I didn't go immediately. I waited about a
21:45
Speaker 1: month to call him. The main reason was because I
21:49
Speaker 1: didn't know what to talk to him about. I mean
21:51
Speaker 1: that might sound a little crazy to a grown people,
21:55
Speaker 1: but as a young girl, I didn't know what to
21:57
Speaker 1: talk to a romman yet alone R Kelly on the
22:01
Speaker 1: phone about. I didn't think he was gonna rush me
22:03
Speaker 1: to Chicago. I thought we were going to have a
22:05
Speaker 1: phone conversation. So I waited a while to call him,
22:08
Speaker 1: and then once I did call him, it was no
22:10
Speaker 1: conversation other than him asking when can you get to Chicago?
22:13
Speaker 1: And then what happened? So I told him whenever you know,
22:17
Speaker 1: he could get me there, and he put me on
22:20
Speaker 1: the phone with June Brown, which is his assistant to
22:23
Speaker 1: this very day, and June talked to me through everything
22:27
Speaker 1: of how to get there. He didn't book it for me,
22:29
Speaker 1: of course, because I was seventeen at the time. So
22:32
Speaker 1: they sent me the money and they actually told me
22:36
Speaker 1: to get my own ticket and where to go and
22:39
Speaker 1: what hotel to go to once I got there and everything,
22:42
Speaker 1: and then they brought me to him once I got
22:44
Speaker 1: to Chicago. So they r Kelly and his people told
22:49
Speaker 1: you how to book your own ticket. At seventeen, I
22:52
Speaker 1: would not have known how to book my own ticket,
22:54
Speaker 1: and you did and use the money. I didn't know.
22:58
Speaker 1: I didn't even have an idea, So I had to
22:59
Speaker 1: go talk me into get an ID, you know, telling
23:02
Speaker 1: me what's all I needed to do to fly to
23:04
Speaker 1: Nicole de Board joining me. Former prosecutor now criminal defense lawyer,
23:08
Speaker 1: Nicole Deboard, You've prosecuted a lot of felony cases, and
23:12
Speaker 1: I think this is diabolical. And I'll tell you why.
23:16
Speaker 1: Because they knew how to erase all the evidence of
23:21
Speaker 1: their involvement. It's not him putting it on his credit
23:25
Speaker 1: card or his recording studio. She did it so in
23:31
Speaker 1: years to come they could go, oh, she just showed up.
23:35
Speaker 1: We didn't even know she was coming. Yeah, you know,
23:37
Speaker 1: it is heartbreaking to hear this account of what happened,
23:40
Speaker 1: and I have to agree that what adds to the
23:43
Speaker 1: credibility of the story here are the details, the many
23:46
Speaker 1: many details about when and how and what was said
23:50
Speaker 1: and what the instructions were. So I tend to agree
23:53
Speaker 1: that this is this is a case that really ought
23:56
Speaker 1: to hold up if the charges would just be accepted.
23:59
Speaker 1: You know, alexis to rest shot writer online dot Com
24:01
Speaker 1: investigative reporter, what a mind? Let me just think of
24:07
Speaker 1: the right word for how to mess with your mind?
24:09
Speaker 1: Because one moment he's having sex with these girls, and
24:15
Speaker 1: the next moment people are cheering for him and he's
24:18
Speaker 1: singing gospel music. Hey, Nancy. The thing is, so many
24:22
Speaker 1: people have come forward for so many years with stories
24:26
Speaker 1: about R. Kelly, and the authorities never believe them. Reporters.
24:29
Speaker 1: I have spoken with people who said that they knew victims,
24:33
Speaker 1: that we're living with R. Kelly for years, We've written stories.
24:36
Speaker 1: The authorities have done nothing because he is so famous
24:42
Speaker 1: and so rich and so powerful, and just no one
24:45
Speaker 1: believed these girls. This is one of the hardest stories
24:48
Speaker 1: to cover is a reporter. When you write things and
24:50
Speaker 1: you write them and no one believes it and nothing happens,
24:53
Speaker 1: The police do nothing, it's so frustrating. Well another problem, Vincent,
24:57
Speaker 1: He'll private Investigator, author of playbook to a Murder on Amazon, Vincent,
25:02
Speaker 1: if you listen to what the families are claiming this
25:05
Speaker 1: One father says that Kelly held Josin Savage, his teenage daughter,
25:12
Speaker 1: that she looked like a prisoner, screamed like a madwoman
25:15
Speaker 1: at the mention of his name during their very upsetting
25:19
Speaker 1: last encounter. That this guy, the dad, Timothy Savage of
25:24
Speaker 1: broke down crying, says she is brainwashed, that she weighed
25:29
Speaker 1: about ninety pounds, she hadn't seen her family in two years.
25:33
Speaker 1: She missed the chance to be with her grandfather just
25:36
Speaker 1: before he passed away so she could be with R. Kelly.
25:40
Speaker 1: That they have evidence Kelly locks up women in his
25:43
Speaker 1: homes in Atlanta and Chicago, beats them and makes them
25:47
Speaker 1: urinate in buckets, refuses to allow them to contact their families,
25:53
Speaker 1: and it just goes on and on and on. Their daughter.
25:58
Speaker 1: According to them, Joscelyn disappeared in the middle of the
26:01
Speaker 1: night from a college campus and The two of them
26:06
Speaker 1: are no slackers. They own two clothing boutiques in Atlanta.
26:11
Speaker 1: They sold them to raise money to get their daughter back.
26:15
Speaker 1: They've used up all their savings, everything they have. They
26:18
Speaker 1: still don't have their daughter. So if she's going along
26:21
Speaker 1: with it, Vincent, hell, how can how can it be proven? Yeah,
26:24
Speaker 1: that's the problem, Nancy. I mean, at this point, miss
26:26
Speaker 1: Savage is an adult. I mean, the police the best
26:29
Speaker 1: they can do as a welfare check. But if she
26:32
Speaker 1: says she's okay, the police have to go with that.
26:35
Speaker 1: They can't get into the psychological piece with maybe there's
26:38
Speaker 1: some Stockholm syndrome or something like that, which is unfortunate.
26:41
Speaker 1: You know, if she says she's okay, police have to
26:44
Speaker 1: go with that. And that's that's the biggest problem here,
26:47
Speaker 1: at least with that case, unfortunately, Nancy. Crime Stories with
27:07
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace with me right now. Lisa van Allen, who
27:15
Speaker 1: fell under superstar R Kelly's spell, but then it all
27:20
Speaker 1: changed once he lured her to his hometown away from
27:23
Speaker 1: her mother, to Chicago. Lisa van Allen, I'm hoping that
27:29
Speaker 1: prosecutors in Chicago and Atlanta hear your voice today. Lisa,
27:34
Speaker 1: what happened when you got to Chicago. Initially, when I
27:37
Speaker 1: got there, you know, being so young, it was a
27:41
Speaker 1: bit exciting to travel to another city and to meet
27:46
Speaker 1: you know, him, and to hang out and here his
27:48
Speaker 1: music and things like that. But soon after that, you know,
27:52
Speaker 1: that kind of died down because he asked me to
27:56
Speaker 1: do a threesome with him. And the way he got
27:58
Speaker 1: me to do it was he told me it never
28:00
Speaker 1: had one before, and with me thinking that his girlfriend,
28:05
Speaker 1: I felt, you know, kind of obligated to do that
28:08
Speaker 1: for him if he had never had one before, and
28:10
Speaker 1: he was a superstar, you know what I mean. I'm like,
28:12
Speaker 1: girls are always throwing themselves at him, and he's never
28:15
Speaker 1: had one before, so I'll just I'll go ahead and
28:17
Speaker 1: do it, you know, for him. We had the threesome,
28:20
Speaker 1: and after we had it, it just became and just
28:26
Speaker 1: something that he always wanted to do threesomes with different girls.
28:30
Speaker 1: I would get very upset. I cry more often than not.
28:35
Speaker 1: I cry about it, and he would always try to
28:37
Speaker 1: give me, like Pep talks about them, how you know,
28:41
Speaker 1: it was just sex and it didn't hold any emotion
28:43
Speaker 1: to him, and how a lot of times he didn't
28:45
Speaker 1: know the girl's names, and you know, if I could
28:48
Speaker 1: just do it and get it over with, you know,
28:50
Speaker 1: so it would be a lot of trauma involved for
28:52
Speaker 1: me because you know, it was something that I didn't
28:55
Speaker 1: want to do, and I felt, you know, that I
28:57
Speaker 1: had to do it for him, especially since I had
28:59
Speaker 1: all already done it, you know what I mean. But
29:02
Speaker 1: you know, once I realized once we did it, more
29:04
Speaker 1: than once I realized it was a lie, but I
29:07
Speaker 1: was already caught up into it and I ended up
29:09
Speaker 1: living there with him. You know, he was taking care
29:11
Speaker 1: of me. You know, I didn't have my job anymore
29:14
Speaker 1: at the mall, you know, so it kind of was
29:16
Speaker 1: like I really didn't have a choice. When he would
29:21
Speaker 1: try to give you as you refer to it as
29:23
Speaker 1: pep talks. You told me that he would say things like,
29:27
Speaker 1: if you love me, you wouldn't try to change me.
29:30
Speaker 1: Yes he would, Yes, he would say that, And he
29:33
Speaker 1: says things that he would say that that's what his
29:35
Speaker 1: mother told him. If if a woman loves a man,
29:37
Speaker 1: she won't try to change him. So I'm thinking to myself, well,
29:42
Speaker 1: him and his mother would know better than me. If
29:44
Speaker 1: i'm you know, I'm yeah, I'm a child. What do
29:46
Speaker 1: I know about what a wrong woman should do or
29:50
Speaker 1: what you know to please a man? You know, so
29:53
Speaker 1: I go off with what he told me, like, Okay, well,
29:57
Speaker 1: I guess he's right. At this time, you were seventeen.
30:00
Speaker 1: How old was he? When you hear these claims by
30:04
Speaker 1: Jocelyn Savage's dad that they have evidence that R. Kelly
30:10
Speaker 1: has beaten women won't let them call their families, makes
30:15
Speaker 1: him urinating buckets? What do you make of that, Lisa
30:18
Speaker 1: Van Allen? I believe them, I do. I also believe
30:22
Speaker 1: that he is getting worse over time. You know, things
30:27
Speaker 1: weren't as bad as they are now. Back then, he
30:32
Speaker 1: didn't have a harem of women living with him. There
30:37
Speaker 1: were girls who came and went and would be in
30:40
Speaker 1: different rooms in the studio, and you did have to
30:42
Speaker 1: get permission to walk through the hallways in the studio.
30:45
Speaker 1: Of all that stuff is very valid. It's just go okay,
30:48
Speaker 1: whoa wa wa wait wait wait wait wait wait wait
30:51
Speaker 1: what did you just say about getting permission? Right? You
30:53
Speaker 1: have to call down to the runners, well for the
30:56
Speaker 1: people at the front desk, and ask them for permission
30:58
Speaker 1: to you know, go through the hallway. Whether it was
31:00
Speaker 1: to leave out the building, whether it was to you,
31:04
Speaker 1: if the room you're en didn't have a bathroom, whether
31:06
Speaker 1: it's to use the bathroom or whatever, you'd have to
31:09
Speaker 1: make sure the hallway was clear first before you could
31:12
Speaker 1: walk through. But that's anyone that wasn't just the women,
31:15
Speaker 1: I mean, anyone that was in the studio for him
31:18
Speaker 1: pretty much had to do that. And you know a
31:20
Speaker 1: lot of celebrities have account it said as well, that's
31:22
Speaker 1: why I don't like to work with him. So in
31:24
Speaker 1: your mind, what was the worst thing you had to
31:26
Speaker 1: endure during your time with R. Kelly? I would say
31:29
Speaker 1: him having me to sleep with the underage or would
31:33
Speaker 1: be the worst because that sticks with me, you know,
31:36
Speaker 1: joining me alexisterres Chuck Vincent Hill, Doctor Bethany Marshall, and
31:40
Speaker 1: Nicole de Boord to doctor Bethany Marshall, I imagine that
31:47
Speaker 1: this would change you for the rest of your life.
31:50
Speaker 1: To live through what she lived through, well, absolutely, because
31:56
Speaker 1: getting co opted into a sex cult has layers of trauma.
32:02
Speaker 1: First of all, she is persuaded and manipulated to go
32:07
Speaker 1: along with him without telling her mother. So this is
32:10
Speaker 1: step one of how cult leaders recruit their members, right
32:14
Speaker 1: they cut them off from their family and friends. Then
32:17
Speaker 1: they get them to leave their jobs so they have
32:21
Speaker 1: no financial support, no way of leaving. Then the cult
32:24
Speaker 1: leaders and this is what our Kelly did, is that
32:27
Speaker 1: he got a bunch of other people to act in
32:30
Speaker 1: concert with him to control his victims. I mean, this
32:34
Speaker 1: is what we see in scientology. This is what we
32:36
Speaker 1: saw and the Jimmy Jones culled. We see in super
32:40
Speaker 1: religious structures is that there is one very strong cult
32:44
Speaker 1: leader who then gets kind of like henchmen all around
32:49
Speaker 1: him to like then have control over the younger, more
32:53
Speaker 1: vulnerable members of the cult. And then you were talking
32:55
Speaker 1: about the gospel singing. You know, it's so interesting because
32:58
Speaker 1: all of these cult leaders are super religious, right, They
33:01
Speaker 1: all think that they have the direct line to God,
33:04
Speaker 1: and they use that to control their members. But I
33:07
Speaker 1: think back to your question of trauma. To make somebody
33:12
Speaker 1: engage in sexual acts against their will, I think it's
33:16
Speaker 1: one of the worst forms of trauma that a person
33:18
Speaker 1: could be subjected to. And this happened to our guest
33:23
Speaker 1: on the show many times and in many ways, and
33:26
Speaker 1: so this is something obviously that's going to stick with
33:29
Speaker 1: her for a long time. To Nicole de Board, former prosecutor,
33:32
Speaker 1: current defense attorney. Nicole, I don't understand why charges have
33:35
Speaker 1: not been brought. I have to agree with you, it
33:37
Speaker 1: seems absurd at this point that they haven't taken some
33:40
Speaker 1: kind of action. They have someone who's willing to describe
33:43
Speaker 1: exactly what happened and give it in such detail that
33:46
Speaker 1: there's sufficient evidence for a case to go to a jury.
33:49
Speaker 1: So to me, it sounds like it should just be
33:51
Speaker 1: a matter of time. Guys, we are talking to an
33:53
Speaker 1: alleged victim of r Kelly. Lisa Van Allen says, anyone
34:00
Speaker 1: ever approached you about filing charges? Not lately, you know,
34:06
Speaker 1: I do testify in the trial in two thousand and eight,
34:09
Speaker 1: but not lately. No one has come before it. He
34:12
Speaker 1: was arrested again. He was in Miami and it was
34:15
Speaker 1: on additional porn charges. We seized at that time camera
34:18
Speaker 1: equipment and twelve digital photos which we believed to the
34:21
Speaker 1: child pornography. You understand that, say, Jenna, maybe us again.
34:28
Speaker 1: I remember being at my brother and sister in law's
34:30
Speaker 1: house and the detectives showing us steals. It wasn't pretty sight.
34:42
Speaker 1: They showed my niece Robert and another young lady intertwined,
34:51
Speaker 1: and I screamed at the top of my lines, what
34:55
Speaker 1: is going on? What is going on? What is wrong
34:58
Speaker 1: with this person? You were here from Surviving R. Kelly
35:02
Speaker 1: on Lifetime. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. Thank
35:05
Speaker 1: you for being with us. With us right now is
35:08
Speaker 1: an alleged victim of the musical superstar R Kelly joining
35:13
Speaker 1: us now? It's R. Kelly's defense lawyer, Steve Greenberg. Mister Greenberg,
35:20
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Nancy. Well, I'm angry,
35:24
Speaker 1: I'm concerned, a little sick to my stomach as No,
35:29
Speaker 1: actually I'm not. I would not be angry if your
35:32
Speaker 1: client R. Kelly, Robert Kelly, went ahead and turn himself
35:37
Speaker 1: in that then I'd be happy, because it's hard for
35:42
Speaker 1: me to believe, mister Greenberg, that all of these women
35:46
Speaker 1: are I assume you've seen the Lifetime special Surviving R. Kelly,
35:52
Speaker 1: that they're all lying and your client is the only
35:55
Speaker 1: one telling the truth. Well, fortunately you're not judging jury,
35:59
Speaker 1: so that happens to be the case. Well, I know that,
36:04
Speaker 1: I'm just asking you, how can that be? Sparkle. Sparkle
36:09
Speaker 1: told her story back when mister Kelly was arrested and
36:13
Speaker 1: charged Karon Illinois more than a decade ago, and the
36:19
Speaker 1: jury didn't believe her. Then she's just retelling the same
36:23
Speaker 1: story that no one believed. The young lady who she
36:27
Speaker 1: claimed was in the video said it wasn't her. The
36:29
Speaker 1: young lady's mother said it wasn't her. The young lady's
36:32
Speaker 1: father said it wasn't her. So, you know, I don't
36:36
Speaker 1: know why everyone wants to believe Sparkle when when the
36:39
Speaker 1: people who are supposedly closer to the situation all say
36:44
Speaker 1: she's not correct. Well, okay, you know what, let's move
36:48
Speaker 1: from Sparkle. Who guys Sparkle is the aunt of the
36:54
Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl in the video. According to the indictment,
36:58
Speaker 1: the jury said that and not determine that she was
37:02
Speaker 1: fourteen or who she was with me Today is Lisa
37:05
Speaker 1: Van Allen, who lived with R. Kelly, who says she
37:10
Speaker 1: was picked out of a group of women on a
37:13
Speaker 1: video shoot Strippers Grow Women. He comes straight over to
37:16
Speaker 1: a skinny teen girl and says, how old are you?
37:20
Speaker 1: Will your mom will let you come to Chicago. She
37:23
Speaker 1: gets there and he immediately enlists her for sex and
37:26
Speaker 1: a threesome. Now forget about sparkling the incident of the
37:30
Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl in the video who was having
37:33
Speaker 1: sex with R. Kelly and got urinated on. I'm gonna
37:35
Speaker 1: try to put that out of my mind. Steve Greenberg.
37:39
Speaker 1: Now I'm talking about Lisa Van Allen, who's with me
37:41
Speaker 1: right now. In Chicago. At that time, the age of
37:48
Speaker 1: consent was seventeen. Now they have enacted that retroactive no
37:55
Speaker 1: statute of limitation law. So explain to me how your client,
38:01
Speaker 1: mister Kelly was not doing exactly what Lisa van Allen
38:07
Speaker 1: says he was doing. Well, again, it's Lisa Allen saying
38:11
Speaker 1: it years later. There's no evidence that what she said
38:15
Speaker 1: is true. There's no witnesses, no photographs, no nothing. So,
38:20
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know why these people are coming
38:23
Speaker 1: forward now. I know that there are dozens of people
38:27
Speaker 1: who say that mister Kelly did nothing wrong. He was
38:30
Speaker 1: always with large entourages, obviously as a performer. Well why
38:36
Speaker 1: he always young women living at his place? Not only
38:39
Speaker 1: is Chicago but Atlanta too. I don't know who was
38:42
Speaker 1: living at his place, Nancy, I was never invited at all. Well,
38:44
Speaker 1: you're his defense attorney. You've never been to his place
38:47
Speaker 1: to place here where he's got two lovely women living there,
38:52
Speaker 1: one of whose father is this savage guy who's running
38:56
Speaker 1: all over saying his daughter is a hostage. Know, the
39:00
Speaker 1: Chicago police did a well being check. Did you just
39:03
Speaker 1: say he's got two women living with him? Yes, two
39:05
Speaker 1: women who lived with him, Yes, lucky man. And how
39:09
Speaker 1: old are they? They're adults? How old are they're adults?
39:14
Speaker 1: They're adults? Repeat? How old are they? How old are they? Yes,
39:18
Speaker 1: they're in their twenty And how long have they been
39:19
Speaker 1: living with him? I can't give it the exact time,
39:22
Speaker 1: but they were both they were both Oh I bet
39:25
Speaker 1: you could. I bet you could adults when they started
39:28
Speaker 1: living with them, I can tell you that. And and
39:31
Speaker 1: the police went over and they talked to them. They said,
39:33
Speaker 1: these are two lovely young ladies who are happy. I
39:37
Speaker 1: know who they are, Jocelyn Savage and Osriel Clearing. I'm
39:40
Speaker 1: looking right at him. And they're with a female quote
39:43
Speaker 1: minder traveling. They all traveling an entourage with R. Kelly.
39:48
Speaker 1: It's like a harem you know. In some countries that's okay,
39:52
Speaker 1: not so much here in the US. Well, I would
39:54
Speaker 1: think that if there was a problem when the police
39:56
Speaker 1: went over talked to them alone without it is whatever
40:02
Speaker 1: you call a harem or a handler. Whatever, the police
40:06
Speaker 1: found there was nothing wrong. So why don't we respect
40:09
Speaker 1: that and say there's nothing wrong because that's what the
40:13
Speaker 1: investigation concluded. Steve Greenberg, you know what you are. You
40:18
Speaker 1: know what you are. You're a darn good defense lawyer
40:21
Speaker 1: because you're like, have you ever seen those snake charmers
40:23
Speaker 1: in the other countries when they sit in front of
40:25
Speaker 1: the I guess it's a cobra, and they wind one way,
40:28
Speaker 1: and the snake winds that way and they're playing that instrument.
40:31
Speaker 1: Then the snake goes the other way and they go
40:33
Speaker 1: right along. See that's what you're doing to me right now.
40:36
Speaker 1: But you're making it seem like it's all okay that
40:41
Speaker 1: Why not have these women living with him? They are adults.
40:44
Speaker 1: You know what I watched the one woman giving her
40:48
Speaker 1: video statement, she kept looking off to the side. Somebody
40:51
Speaker 1: was telling her what to say. And in her statement
40:54
Speaker 1: that she gave saying how she's fine and she's there willingly,
40:58
Speaker 1: somebody wrote that for her. They even miss spelled her name.
41:01
Speaker 1: You want me to think she couldn't spell her own
41:04
Speaker 1: name in her written statement. I mean, stop at Steve,
41:09
Speaker 1: that this is a Lisa van Allen with me. You're
41:13
Speaker 1: hearing Rchilles defense lawyer Steve Greenberg, and that's how he
41:18
Speaker 1: wins his cases, the way he spins it out. It
41:21
Speaker 1: sounds so believable. But you were there, Lisa, exactly what
41:26
Speaker 1: happened when he asked you to have a threesome with
41:29
Speaker 1: an underage girl? According to you, all right, when he
41:33
Speaker 1: would ask me to have strength, you know, I'd cry,
41:36
Speaker 1: I get upset and he would say, I mean in
41:38
Speaker 1: one with the young lady that we're speaking of from trial.
41:42
Speaker 1: When I cried about that one, he got upset and said,
41:45
Speaker 1: what am I going to do with this tape? What
41:47
Speaker 1: can I do with this? How can I watch this
41:48
Speaker 1: with you on here crying? You know? I mean he
41:51
Speaker 1: really got upset that he couldn't watch that tape. Later
41:56
Speaker 1: hit me, I mean, he caused this uf the pie piper?
41:59
Speaker 1: Can his lawyer explain that you know what the pie
42:02
Speaker 1: piper is? The pipe piper is a man who lais
42:05
Speaker 1: children away from their family. Do you do you, Steve Greenberg,
42:09
Speaker 1: know what the pie piper is? I do? Okay? What
42:12
Speaker 1: if you know what the pie piper is what. I
42:16
Speaker 1: cannot explain people's nicknames, and that's not really you don't
42:21
Speaker 1: have to. He doesn't have to explain it. I mean
42:23
Speaker 1: the evidence is there. I mean, go to C County
42:26
Speaker 1: court House. How many women have you paid off that
42:27
Speaker 1: were underage? Do you pay off people when you're not guilty?
42:30
Speaker 1: I think twelve you do that when you're not guilty?
42:33
Speaker 1: Or is that the right number, Steve? Steve, is that
42:36
Speaker 1: the right number? There have been twelve young women with
42:38
Speaker 1: whom he has reached civil settlements where he paid money
42:42
Speaker 1: to make their claim go away in civil court NAT.
42:46
Speaker 1: Beyond saying that people settle civil cases for all sorts
42:52
Speaker 1: of reasons, including the cost of litigation. Any settlement which
42:57
Speaker 1: I have never seen, um are my understanding when people
43:02
Speaker 1: explain them are supposed to be confidential. And therefore I
43:06
Speaker 1: believe that if I were I was not involved in
43:09
Speaker 1: those cases, if they justif I wasn't a lawyer on it,
43:12
Speaker 1: and if I say anything about it, I would be
43:15
Speaker 1: subject to discipline from the courts here. So I'm not
43:18
Speaker 1: going to let in that situation since rob is not,
43:23
Speaker 1: Since since he believes that Robert didn't do any of
43:26
Speaker 1: these things. Why don't they have rob and all of
43:29
Speaker 1: us young ladies do lie detective tests and good prove
43:33
Speaker 1: who's telling the truth and who's not. I'm not saying
43:35
Speaker 1: in the court of law, just carry it, just recording. Well,
43:37
Speaker 1: would he agree to a lie detector, Steve Grammer, I'll
43:40
Speaker 1: ask when will justice be sought? R Kelly's still living
43:45
Speaker 1: in six properties across the country, six properties that reportedly
43:50
Speaker 1: house women in each one. It is like a harem,
43:54
Speaker 1: but it ain't over yet. Please join me tomorrow for
43:59
Speaker 1: part two of Lisa Van Allen, along with R. Kelly's
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Speaker 1: defense attorney Stephen Greenberg, as we search for the truth
44:07
Speaker 1: and pray that justice will unfold. It hasn't yet. Nancy
44:14
Speaker 1: Grace Crimes Stories, signing off goodbye friends,