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The Origins of AIDS · Conspiracy! The Show

0:06
Speaker 1: Destroyed, Win Truly, Intrurance, spit, I true the Troth, I'm
0:14
Speaker 1: a checked out the tru and speed at your things.
0:16
Speaker 2: Wait yet the little week. Hey everybody, welcome to Conspiracy
0:25
Speaker 2: The Show. I'm Adam Todd Brown. Who are you.
0:27
Speaker 1: I'm physital SNI. Thanks for having me again.
0:31
Speaker 2: We are your hosts. This week we are talking about
0:34
Speaker 2: some crazy shit, but per usual, before we get into it,
0:38
Speaker 2: how are you.
0:39
Speaker 1: I'm doing pretty well all things considered. You know, everyone
0:43
Speaker 1: knows the world is on fire in a way, so
0:48
Speaker 1: for good reason though, Yeah, yeah, it's you know, I
0:51
Speaker 1: think that we there's there's some stuff we need to
0:53
Speaker 1: burn down, systemic racism, burn it, the police state, burn it.
0:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. Like we get negative comments and
1:02
Speaker 2: reviews on iTunes from like Trump supporters and whatnot for
1:07
Speaker 2: this podcast, but like that's a compliment. Yeah, it is
1:11
Speaker 2: kind of a compliment. And also if you're one of
1:13
Speaker 2: those people, like you can't listen to a conspiracy theory
1:17
Speaker 2: podcast and also endorse police violence against American citizens. Those
1:24
Speaker 2: are not things that can exist in the same place.
1:28
Speaker 2: You can't listen to this podcast and also be okay
1:33
Speaker 2: with the government cracking down on black people.
1:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not pro life.
1:38
Speaker 2: It's not pro life, and it's not pro small government.
1:43
Speaker 2: Like everything that's happening right now, every person listening to
1:47
Speaker 2: this podcast should support and if you don't, I'm sorry
1:50
Speaker 2: you're listening to the wrong fucking podcast. Because all of
1:55
Speaker 2: that anti government shit that white nationalist types have been
2:00
Speaker 2: spewing for years and years and years, like, it's all
2:03
Speaker 2: happening to black people right now. All of that militarized
2:08
Speaker 2: police force cracking down on people, it's happening to black
2:12
Speaker 2: people who are American citizens just like you.
2:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, racism sucks.
2:18
Speaker 2: It really does. And if you have a problem with
2:23
Speaker 2: this podcast not being pro racist, fuck you. We don't
2:28
Speaker 2: need your support, I promise you.
2:30
Speaker 1: That, dude. So I got a New York Times news
2:33
Speaker 1: alert and it said that the something like the Army
2:38
Speaker 1: was totally open to changing their Confederate base names or
2:41
Speaker 1: their base names that are named after Confederate I guess
2:45
Speaker 1: heroes or whatever. And Trump said no.
2:50
Speaker 2: That was the like.
2:51
Speaker 1: Trump said, no, They're like, yeah, we're totally open to
2:55
Speaker 1: like get rid of this racist bullshit.
2:57
Speaker 2: And Trump's like, nah, no, fucking bananas.
3:01
Speaker 1: He wants a base in the future too. You get
3:04
Speaker 1: rid of that shit. No one's building him a base
3:06
Speaker 1: anytime soon.
3:07
Speaker 2: And like that argument that, oh, well, all those Confederate monuments,
3:12
Speaker 2: that's our history. No, motherfucker, this is our history. We
3:15
Speaker 2: are still a very young nation, and what's happening right
3:20
Speaker 2: now is also our history. And if that involves taking
3:25
Speaker 2: down the racist, fucking relics of our previous history, so
3:30
Speaker 2: be it. It's all history. Like you're just gonna have
3:33
Speaker 2: to accept it. Goodbye racist statues.
3:37
Speaker 1: And it's just like, how can one claim to be
3:40
Speaker 1: the supreme dominant race when you're genetics that allow you
3:47
Speaker 1: to be that race are recessive. I'm just saying, what
3:50
Speaker 1: are you trying to It's just like melanin makes you
3:54
Speaker 1: age better, do it for your children. You know, Nature
3:58
Speaker 1: likes diversity, doesn't like inbreeding. You know what I'm saying, Like,
4:04
Speaker 1: spread those genes out. We have mobility help.
4:07
Speaker 2: Racism is over white.
4:11
Speaker 1: White cracks.
4:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, cracks, so fucking bad.
4:14
Speaker 1: Cracks, crinkles, wrinkles. You're doing well, though, Todd, You're you're
4:20
Speaker 1: keeping it together.
4:21
Speaker 2: The amount of lotion I have to put on my
4:23
Speaker 2: face every time I shower, you wouldn't like I go
4:27
Speaker 2: through like a bottle a week. It's nuts.
4:31
Speaker 1: Well, it's like working. You're keeping it very hydrated. I
4:34
Speaker 1: called you Todd. Do you ever go by your middle name?
4:36
Speaker 1: Some people go by their middle name, but like you
4:37
Speaker 1: go by both the first Wait, yeah.
4:39
Speaker 2: I go by something. My niece calls me Todd and
4:43
Speaker 2: that's she's the only person who calls me Todd. And
4:46
Speaker 2: now I guess you also. That's fine, Adam Todd.
4:50
Speaker 1: Just let's just see what comes out.
4:54
Speaker 2: So we're talking about something today that I think also
4:58
Speaker 2: ties into system racism, I would argue, which is the
5:03
Speaker 2: origin of the AIDS virus. Yeah, we're talking about it
5:08
Speaker 2: in the context of a two thousand and four documentary
5:11
Speaker 2: called The Origins of AIDS, which.
5:14
Speaker 1: Was based on a book called The River, which is
5:17
Speaker 1: super hard to.
5:18
Speaker 2: Find now, right, which right away leads me to believe
5:22
Speaker 2: that this theory is mostly true. Like whenever one of
5:25
Speaker 2: those books is really hard to find, I'm like, okay,
5:28
Speaker 2: they were onto something. Yeah, But the hypothesis is basically
5:33
Speaker 2: that an oral polio vaccine that was tested and administered
5:38
Speaker 2: in the Congo by doctor Hilary Boprowski caused the AIDS
5:44
Speaker 2: epidemic by accidentally infecting people with HIV.
5:48
Speaker 1: So that's a direct result of colonialism, right, because it's
5:52
Speaker 1: just like, well, let's go to Belgium, Congo and these
5:56
Speaker 1: are test subjects that are easily available, legal and I
6:00
Speaker 1: say that in quotes.
6:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's like we'll get into the details of
6:05
Speaker 2: it in a bit, but that's exactly how it happened.
6:07
Speaker 2: Like at one point during the testing of all this,
6:10
Speaker 2: they were like, well, where can we go and test
6:14
Speaker 2: this in a not really ethical way but still legal.
6:19
Speaker 2: And the answer in cases like that is almost always Africa.
6:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like who who do white people not care about?
6:26
Speaker 2: Yeah?
6:26
Speaker 1: Or who they care about.
6:28
Speaker 2: Least, who's expendable? Yeah, And sadly it always ends up
6:34
Speaker 2: being Africa. And just some to run through some backs
6:39
Speaker 2: and stats about AIDS. In twenty years, AIDS has become
6:44
Speaker 2: the worst medical catastrophe ever experienced by humankind. That is
6:49
Speaker 2: a quote from the documentary twenty six million dead, forty
6:53
Speaker 2: million infected and counting.
6:56
Speaker 1: Just that that's an enormous pandemic and it's been going
7:00
Speaker 1: on for when was it identified? Early eighties the first
7:05
Speaker 1: case I believe was identified.
7:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the US, it really kicked off in the eighties.
7:11
Speaker 2: And if you go back and look at our government's
7:14
Speaker 2: response to it, it was mostly written off because it
7:19
Speaker 2: was considered a gay disease. There's a really famous press
7:24
Speaker 2: briefing from the Reagan era where a reporter asks the
7:30
Speaker 2: White House Press secretary at the time, I don't remember
7:33
Speaker 2: who it was about the AIDS epidemic and how I
7:37
Speaker 2: think at that point, like six thousand people in the
7:40
Speaker 2: US had died from it, and this reporter asked about it,
7:44
Speaker 2: and the press secretary is like, no, of course, we
7:48
Speaker 2: haven't looked at do you think you have it? And
7:51
Speaker 2: it was all because it was considered a gay disease.
7:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was so much stigma and ignorance around it. Also,
7:57
Speaker 1: they had no idea for while how long you know,
8:02
Speaker 1: how people spread it to each other. And also there's
8:05
Speaker 1: in I don't know if it's an incubation, but there's
8:07
Speaker 1: a period of like ten years before you even show symptoms,
8:10
Speaker 1: so you could be passing it around for ten years
8:13
Speaker 1: sexually and travenously breast milk. You can't get it from
8:17
Speaker 1: saliva though saliva kills AIDS.
8:19
Speaker 2: You're not going to believe this, but.
8:21
Speaker 1: Well, I don't have a killed I don't know if it
8:24
Speaker 1: kills AIDS, but saliva can't transmit AIDS. I'm just like, Okay,
8:29
Speaker 1: I gotta be responsible with what I'm putting out there.
8:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you can believe this, the point where AIDS
8:37
Speaker 2: actually started being considered a real problem in this country
8:41
Speaker 2: was when a white kid got it. It was a
8:44
Speaker 2: kid in I think Indiana. His name, very appropriately, I believe,
8:49
Speaker 2: was Ryan. He contracted AIDS as a child, and once
8:56
Speaker 2: that happened, like that became news in like eighties or
9:00
Speaker 2: eighty seven. Like I'm old enough to remember all this.
9:04
Speaker 2: I remember Rock Hudson coming out, oh yeah as having
9:08
Speaker 2: tested positive for AIDS, and like that's when we found
9:12
Speaker 2: out he was gay his entire career. Yeah, because the
9:16
Speaker 2: Internet didn't exist then. And then Ryan White got AIDS
9:21
Speaker 2: and that was just like a twelve year old kid
9:23
Speaker 2: in Indiana. So then all of America was like, oh
9:27
Speaker 2: my god, AIDS. We should still not do anything about this,
9:30
Speaker 2: but let's pretend we care.
9:32
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that was the reaction. There was a lot
9:35
Speaker 1: of ignorance and stigma, and I mean even now, it's
9:40
Speaker 1: just the people who survive are the ones who have
9:43
Speaker 1: access and resources, like Magic Johnson undetectable.
9:49
Speaker 2: Someone's spitting him, yeah, exactly. HIV was first isolated in
9:56
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three by Luke Montaigner and Francois bauxinoas his
10:02
Speaker 2: teams at the Pasteur Institute in Paris. In nineteen eighty nine,
10:07
Speaker 2: researchers identified a virus similar to HIV in a chimpanzee
10:13
Speaker 2: that was SIV, Simian immuno deficiency virus. Researchers designated SIV
10:20
Speaker 2: as the ancestor of HIV, which is human immuno deficiency virus. Right,
10:27
Speaker 2: And they bring up a really interesting thing in this documentary,
10:31
Speaker 2: which is that HIV does not impact chimpanzees the same way. Yeah,
10:38
Speaker 2: it will not develop AIDS. Instead, chimps just develop anti
10:44
Speaker 2: bodies and the HIV goes away.
10:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, they recover.
10:48
Speaker 2: And that part is really, really, really important to what
10:53
Speaker 2: we're talking about today. And the reason it's important is,
10:58
Speaker 2: let's say, or testing a vaccine that might accidentally contain HIV.
11:05
Speaker 2: If you're testing that vaccine on chimps who are impacted
11:10
Speaker 2: by HIV a completely different way than humans, then you're
11:14
Speaker 2: not going to detect the HIV in those vaccines because
11:19
Speaker 2: the chimps are just recovering from it. And if you're testing,
11:23
Speaker 2: like you have to look for symptoms and things to
11:26
Speaker 2: know to check for something.
11:27
Speaker 1: So it's just not the right group to test on.
11:32
Speaker 2: Right, And that is really important to this entire story.
11:37
Speaker 2: But before we get there, where did the AIDS epidemic begin?
11:41
Speaker 2: It is generally believed to have begun in northeast Zaire
11:45
Speaker 2: in Uganda.
11:47
Speaker 1: Which was formerly a Belgian Congo, the Belgian Congo.
11:51
Speaker 2: Right in nineteen fifty nine, a Belgian physician collected two
11:55
Speaker 2: thousand blood samples from the residents of the Belgian Congo.
12:00
Speaker 2: So scientists in the nineteen eighties tested those blood samples
12:03
Speaker 2: for HIV. One sample was positive and that is generally
12:07
Speaker 2: considered to be the first positive AID sample. And that
12:11
Speaker 2: sample came from Kinshasha, which is formerly Leopoldville, capital of
12:16
Speaker 2: the Congo. But I didn't need to tell anyone in
12:18
Speaker 2: that like everyone knows that that's a joke. No one doesn't.
12:22
Speaker 2: Everyone doesn't. People don't know that. So the question is
12:27
Speaker 2: how does SIV become HIV? How does it pass to humans?
12:32
Speaker 2: And there are two theories in that regard.
12:36
Speaker 1: The most widely accepted theory was the hunting and gather
12:42
Speaker 1: or the hunting of chimps, so eating the meat. So
12:45
Speaker 1: it suggested that at some point an infected chimp with
12:50
Speaker 1: SIV may have been, you know, being prepared the meat
12:54
Speaker 1: and it cut. Maybe the person preparing it got cut
12:58
Speaker 1: or hunting it got cut and contracted SIV, which mutated
13:03
Speaker 1: into HIV.
13:05
Speaker 2: Right, And the other possible explanation is that vaccines that
13:11
Speaker 2: were made from monkeys were administered to.
13:14
Speaker 1: Humans monkeys some which had SIV.
13:19
Speaker 2: Right, And science tends to lead toward the hunter theory,
13:25
Speaker 2: which is, like you said, people in Africa were hunting
13:29
Speaker 2: monkeys for food and maybe they got scratched while they
13:33
Speaker 2: were trying to clean one of those monkeys.
13:36
Speaker 1: It's just odd that after you know, probably a long
13:41
Speaker 1: tradition of hunting monkeys that just you know, this or
13:46
Speaker 1: the last century is when SI or HIV popped up.
13:50
Speaker 1: Even now, most scientists would say maybe the earliest case
13:55
Speaker 1: of this and this you know, maybe there were several
13:58
Speaker 1: times where it jumped from monkey to the human, but
14:01
Speaker 1: it just didn't spread, it didn't create a pandemic. But
14:04
Speaker 1: they're saying the earliest case would have been I think
14:08
Speaker 1: somewhere around nineteen ten nineteen twenty around then, but that
14:14
Speaker 1: still doesn't account for the years and years prior of hunting.
14:19
Speaker 2: So let's talk about polio and HIV. This is, like
14:23
Speaker 2: we mentioned at the top of the show, this is
14:26
Speaker 2: basically the theory is that HIV spread through polio vaccines.
14:31
Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety two, an independent journalist named Tom Curtis
14:37
Speaker 2: published an article called the Origin of AIDS in Rolling
14:40
Speaker 2: Stone magazine. According to Curtis, it received a packet of
14:45
Speaker 2: documents suggesting that AIDS had been accidentally implanted into people
14:51
Speaker 2: during polio vaccines, which much like an earlier case of
14:55
Speaker 2: a monkey virus SV forty that had infected millions of
14:59
Speaker 2: people through the polio vaccine. SIV is also a monkey virus,
15:04
Speaker 2: so Curtis postulated that the polio vaccination campaign in the
15:09
Speaker 2: nineteen fifties across the Congo may have been the cause
15:13
Speaker 2: for the epidemic.
15:14
Speaker 1: And I just want to point out that the monkey
15:16
Speaker 1: virus SV forty that a lot of people got through
15:21
Speaker 1: a polio vaccine did not have any It was asymptomatic
15:27
Speaker 1: for humans, so it didn't really affect humans. But they
15:30
Speaker 1: still contracted a monkey virus from a vaccine, So it's possible.
15:36
Speaker 2: And the fact that it didn't really impact humans. They
15:39
Speaker 2: were just like, eh, whatever, yeah, didn't.
15:42
Speaker 1: Well, you know, we'll be fine. They didn't anticipate SIV
15:46
Speaker 1: turning to HIV.
15:48
Speaker 2: Right, And this article implicated a scientist named Hilary Koprowski.
15:56
Speaker 2: He was a researcher and pioneer in the fight against polio,
16:01
Speaker 2: and he developed the vaccine that was used in the
16:04
Speaker 2: Congo that is pointed to as being the one that
16:09
Speaker 2: spread AIDS.
16:10
Speaker 1: So it was a contaminated vaccine then, right.
16:13
Speaker 2: And scientists, at least Western scientists and pharmaceutical companies both
16:20
Speaker 2: hate this fucking theory scientists because it implicates Hillary Kaprowski,
16:26
Speaker 2: who is a legend in science. He invented the polio vaccine,
16:30
Speaker 2: and polio killed and maimed a lot of people around
16:35
Speaker 2: the world, so of course he's heralded as a hero
16:37
Speaker 2: for that.
16:38
Speaker 1: And I mean, the polio vaccine is considered one of
16:41
Speaker 1: the greatest scientific achievements in modern medicine. So this, you know,
16:45
Speaker 1: especially at the time, was someone who people didn't want
16:50
Speaker 1: to see knocked down.
16:51
Speaker 2: Right, And also now that the polio vaccine exists, changing
16:56
Speaker 2: it would be a lot of time and money in
17:00
Speaker 2: tested on the part of pharmaceutical companies and they don't
17:03
Speaker 2: want to fucking do that.
17:04
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because where does a lot of financing
17:08
Speaker 1: come from for scientists in this field. Yeah, they might
17:13
Speaker 1: be kind of in their pockets, you know. And then also,
17:17
Speaker 1: you know, I think if a scientist is implicated for
17:21
Speaker 1: having made a mistake with such enormous consequences, it could
17:29
Speaker 1: maybe halt other science shit going on, and that's not good.
17:34
Speaker 1: That's not I think for scientists who are trying to
17:37
Speaker 1: move forward, that's maybe not really good for timely progress
17:42
Speaker 1: in their you know, I'm not saying that's how I feel.
17:45
Speaker 1: I could take ethics into consideration, but it's also a
17:48
Speaker 1: lot of work. It is more efficient to test on
17:51
Speaker 1: live creatures, but it might not be right always.
17:58
Speaker 2: Hey everybody, this is the host of this podcast. Did
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Speaker 2: thanks for listening and thanks for the support. We love you.
18:58
Speaker 2: Let's get back to the show. I think what this
19:03
Speaker 2: is a good example of is a thing I've wanted
19:07
Speaker 2: to bring up on the main Unpopular Opinion podcast and
19:11
Speaker 2: just haven't so far, which is you should always trust
19:15
Speaker 2: good science, but you don't always have to trust scientists. Yeah, Like,
19:22
Speaker 2: scientists are kind of the cops of science. And one
19:26
Speaker 2: thing we know about cops is when they know they've
19:30
Speaker 2: been caught doing wrong, what are they gonna do? Are
19:33
Speaker 2: they gonna admit it or are they going to double
19:36
Speaker 2: down on being wrong? You see that same thing with scientists,
19:40
Speaker 2: and you see it here where there is a lot
19:43
Speaker 2: of at least circumstantial evidence that what happened with this
19:47
Speaker 2: polio vaccine did actually lead to AIDS being spread in Africa.
19:52
Speaker 2: But scientists who we trust to look at something from
19:57
Speaker 2: a scientific perspective are looking at at this issue and going, no, no,
20:02
Speaker 2: that's that's not Yeah, I get that. At the same
20:05
Speaker 2: time this vaccine started being tested in the Congo, AIDS
20:08
Speaker 2: also started there. And that feels very like a very
20:12
Speaker 2: scientific explanation. But no, and it's like trust evidence, don't
20:17
Speaker 2: trust people.
20:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even beyond sort of that evidence, there is
20:23
Speaker 1: there's more evidence and you know of where they sourced
20:28
Speaker 1: these vaccines from which you know, we were talking about
20:31
Speaker 1: earlier chimpanzees infected chimpanzees and they didn't know they were
20:36
Speaker 1: infected because HIV wasn't SIV wasn't identified. It was SIV identified,
20:41
Speaker 1: It couldn't have been. They wouldn't have used monkeys that
20:44
Speaker 1: they thought would kill people, but they were willing to
20:47
Speaker 1: test and see what happened.
20:49
Speaker 2: Right, And you see when you watch this documentary the
20:53
Speaker 2: scientist in question just blatantly lying about whether he used chimpanzees. Yeah,
21:00
Speaker 2: and that's all the more reason to treat scientists as
21:05
Speaker 2: people who are fallible. They are not just because they're scientists,
21:10
Speaker 2: And like we're living in a society where the idea
21:14
Speaker 2: that science is always better than God is very heavily
21:19
Speaker 2: promoted and it's not necessarily wrong, but it doesn't make
21:23
Speaker 2: scientists perfect.
21:25
Speaker 1: Well, it's like, also, why are they compared? You know,
21:28
Speaker 1: it's different things. The science is a method and a
21:31
Speaker 1: compilation of proven evidence that is always you know, can
21:36
Speaker 1: be amended based on new evidence, and spiritual beliefs, you know,
21:42
Speaker 1: can be a separate thing. I don't understand why. It's
21:44
Speaker 1: sort of like we need science to It's like we
21:47
Speaker 1: hate religions so much. Science is going to be the
21:49
Speaker 1: antithesis of this. And it's you know, that's a little dramatic.
21:53
Speaker 2: And you also have to consider we're talking about science
21:57
Speaker 2: in like the nineteen forties and fifties. That's a whole
22:01
Speaker 2: different world than what we're living in now.
22:04
Speaker 1: Science was a scene back then.
22:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, like this is when science was given people LSD
22:11
Speaker 2: to see what would happen, Like they were given people
22:15
Speaker 2: LSD at government sanctioned brothels in San Francisco. Like it
22:21
Speaker 2: was a completely different world. And if you think science
22:25
Speaker 2: wasn't capable of doing something like this at the time,
22:28
Speaker 2: Egypt is a good example of how you are wrong
22:32
Speaker 2: Egypt right now is on the verge of eradicating hepatitis
22:38
Speaker 2: C in their society altogether. And the reason they've been
22:43
Speaker 2: so vigilant about eradicating hepatitis C is because in the
22:48
Speaker 2: nineteen fifties they launched this massive campaign to vaccinate everyone
22:54
Speaker 2: against this disease called schistosomiasis.
23:00
Speaker 1: Okay, hell, I'm gonna try skiss to skiss to semiasis.
23:05
Speaker 2: Yeah you might be Yeah, skiss.
23:07
Speaker 1: The samiasis now s c H. I actually, can you
23:12
Speaker 1: give it to me in a sentence? Oh you already were?
23:14
Speaker 2: I did? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I already did. That's a
23:17
Speaker 2: one time thing.
23:18
Speaker 1: So they launched the massive campaign vaccination campaign to fight schitzosomiasis,
23:23
Speaker 1: but in the process they gave a shitload of people pepsi.
23:26
Speaker 2: Because science at the time didn't realize you can't reuse needles. Yeah. Yeah,
23:31
Speaker 2: so we're talking about nineteen fifties science.
23:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was before the single use syringe.
23:39
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, don't hear the word science and go, well, no,
23:44
Speaker 2: of course everything they're they're going to tell me is correct.
23:47
Speaker 2: These scientists might have fucked up and spread AIDS in Africa.
23:52
Speaker 2: It's very possible. It's a thing that happened in Egypt
23:55
Speaker 2: with a different disease at the exact same time. Science
23:59
Speaker 2: is not in foul, science is infallible. Scientists are not.
24:03
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, So you know, people are people. You know,
24:06
Speaker 1: it's always always going to be going through you know, science,
24:09
Speaker 1: we hope is untainted, just neutral evidence, whereas people are
24:15
Speaker 1: always going to have their own bias and their own
24:18
Speaker 1: filter navigating through the world, even in their work. Even
24:21
Speaker 1: in their work, it happens.
24:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. And at the time polio, it was a disease
24:27
Speaker 2: that was killing mostly children. So you have to like,
24:32
Speaker 2: imagine if coronavirus right now only killed kids. Imagine the
24:37
Speaker 2: pressure on science to come up with a vaccine. If
24:40
Speaker 2: those one hundred and ten thousand dead people in the
24:44
Speaker 2: United States were mostly kids, we would be leaning on
24:48
Speaker 2: science every day to come up with a vaccine as
24:52
Speaker 2: quickly as possible.
24:53
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they'd be in a pressure cooker.
24:56
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's what happened with polio because it mostly
24:59
Speaker 2: impacted kids. So the American public was like, fix this,
25:04
Speaker 2: fix it right now, and that led to science kind
25:07
Speaker 2: of cutting some corners and figuring out how to fix it. Yeah.
25:10
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing. There's so much pressure, and
25:14
Speaker 1: you can only do what you can do. So, you know,
25:16
Speaker 1: I'm not defending unethical behavior, but I guess when you
25:20
Speaker 1: have that many lives at stake and people breathing down
25:24
Speaker 1: your next you're going to be kind of desperate to
25:26
Speaker 1: find this. And then people who are career scientists, you know,
25:30
Speaker 1: probably want to be the one right, the one to
25:34
Speaker 1: find it.
25:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the same thing we're seeing now. There's
25:37
Speaker 2: so many companies that want to be that company that
25:40
Speaker 2: comes up with a vaccine, and like the company that
25:44
Speaker 2: Trump decided to pump most of the government money into
25:47
Speaker 2: a company called Moderna. It's the company that said they
25:51
Speaker 2: would come up with a vaccine the quickest. But they're
25:55
Speaker 2: also a company that has literally never gotten a drug
26:00
Speaker 2: proved on the market. So I get the inclination to
26:04
Speaker 2: want to fix something like this really fast, but you
26:08
Speaker 2: don't want the thing you come up with to fix
26:10
Speaker 2: it to be a thing that also kills people.
26:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not ideal, right.
26:15
Speaker 2: And that's kind of what ended up happening with the
26:18
Speaker 2: polio vaccine. Joseph Sack in nineteen fifty eight developed an
26:24
Speaker 2: injected vaccine. Ninety million Americans were vaccinated against polio. It
26:30
Speaker 2: was the first vaccine to be derived from monkey Organs
26:33
Speaker 2: Labs shipped macock monkeys in from everywhere for those monkey kidneys.
26:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I saw how they made the polio vaccine,
26:41
Speaker 1: that was it doesn't seem that hard. It seems maybe
26:46
Speaker 1: as easy as cooking crack.
26:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. You just you cut up a monkey kidney with
26:51
Speaker 2: some scissors and you put that into a flask.
26:54
Speaker 1: It's like cooking.
26:55
Speaker 2: Yeah. You add the poliovirus, which we all have on
26:57
Speaker 2: hand in our cabinets. Collect the list would filter out
27:01
Speaker 2: the cells kelly from aldehyde, put it in a bottle.
27:04
Speaker 2: You're done. And that was actually kind of the process
27:07
Speaker 2: for developing the first polio vaccine.
27:10
Speaker 1: And this was the injected vaccine, which is different from
27:13
Speaker 1: the Hillary Kapowski one, which was oral.
27:18
Speaker 2: And when this first vaccine was approved, the FDA knew
27:22
Speaker 2: that these literal mashed up monkey guts probably were not
27:27
Speaker 2: good for like they probably contained other diseases, but we
27:32
Speaker 2: were so desperate to stop polio that no one really cared.
27:36
Speaker 2: And Tom Curtis, the guy who wrote the Rolling Stone article,
27:40
Speaker 2: he included all of this in that article, but his
27:44
Speaker 2: one mistake.
27:46
Speaker 1: He got the monkey wrong.
27:48
Speaker 2: He got the monkey wrong in his article. He said
27:51
Speaker 2: that Hillary Kopowski made his vaccines from the African green
27:56
Speaker 2: monkey instead of the macoque And the problem was the
28:01
Speaker 2: African green monkey does not carry SIV. So because of
28:06
Speaker 2: that one mistake, Rolling Stone issued a complete retraction and
28:10
Speaker 2: they were like, we're sorry forever writing this article. And
28:14
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean the rest of his research was incorrect.
28:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really threw the baby out with the bathwater.
28:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's a really famous news article from the
28:27
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties written by a guy named Gary Webb which
28:31
Speaker 2: basically said that the CIA was responsible for spreading crack
28:37
Speaker 2: cocaine in the United States in the eighties and nineties.
28:41
Speaker 2: And if you ask people who are just kind of
28:44
Speaker 2: casual observers of the news, they will tell you that
28:48
Speaker 2: Gary Webb's conspiracy theory was debunked by the New York Times.
28:54
Speaker 2: And no, the New York Times just took a little
28:57
Speaker 2: bit of issue with how he was parted a couple
29:01
Speaker 2: aspects of the story. People have taken that to mean, oh,
29:06
Speaker 2: the New York Times debunked that story, and no they didn't.
29:09
Speaker 2: They just didn't completely agree with his methods. And it's
29:14
Speaker 2: the same thing here where, Just because this one independent
29:19
Speaker 2: journalist writing and Rolling Rolling Stone got one detail wrong.
29:24
Speaker 2: History has just written off this entire idea that maybe
29:29
Speaker 2: AIDS started with the polio.
29:31
Speaker 1: Vaccine, and and for good reason. You know, there there's
29:35
Speaker 1: motive there to write it off, you know, if they
29:38
Speaker 1: can see, oh, here's some evidence to just to throw
29:42
Speaker 1: this problem away just you know, it's again the scientists
29:46
Speaker 1: don't want to be implicated. They don't want one of
29:48
Speaker 1: their own to be implicated for you know, something that's
29:52
Speaker 1: been so devastating to the world. Right, that's that's not
29:57
Speaker 1: a good look.
29:58
Speaker 2: It's a terrible li and it's not what we expect
30:02
Speaker 2: from science. Like we treat science as this thing where
30:07
Speaker 2: if they're wrong, they're gonna tell us they're wrong. And
30:10
Speaker 2: you can't expect that because scientists are still people and
30:14
Speaker 2: they're still going to be influenced by whatever people are
30:19
Speaker 2: influenced by. I bring up this fucking case all the time,
30:23
Speaker 2: But when we were really going hard against vaping in
30:27
Speaker 2: this country, Yeah, there's this report that people point to
30:31
Speaker 2: all the time that claims jewel cartridges and cigarettes have
30:35
Speaker 2: the same chemicals in them, which is really alarming because
30:39
Speaker 2: chemicals have like formaldehyde and all that shit in them. Yeah,
30:43
Speaker 2: but all that report was saying was that chemical that
30:46
Speaker 2: cigarettes and jewel cartridges have the same chemicals that are
30:50
Speaker 2: like the reason Disneyland has to put up signs that say, hey,
30:54
Speaker 2: if you walk in here, you might get cancer. Like,
30:56
Speaker 2: they're chemicals and compounds that we're all to every day
31:01
Speaker 2: just by going out in the world. So naturally they're
31:04
Speaker 2: going to be in cigarettes and in jewel cartridges. But
31:08
Speaker 2: what those two things don't share are formaldehyde and all
31:13
Speaker 2: the shit that tobacco companies pump into cigarettes to make
31:17
Speaker 2: them more addictive. But people just see that headline and
31:20
Speaker 2: see that it's from science, and they go, okay, well
31:24
Speaker 2: science has said these two things are the same thing.
31:27
Speaker 2: But the scientists involved in that all had a vested
31:31
Speaker 2: interest in tobacco cessation devices, so they were they had
31:38
Speaker 2: a financial interest in tying tobacco and jewel cartridges together
31:45
Speaker 2: in a dangerous way, and they did it in a
31:48
Speaker 2: not really scientifically ethical way. But people just see, oh science,
31:54
Speaker 2: they said this, so obviously it's cool, and like sciences
31:58
Speaker 2: are people too, and if science was wrong about being
32:03
Speaker 2: responsible for spreading AIDS, of course they're gonna fucking lie
32:07
Speaker 2: about it.
32:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's it's politics. Also, yeah, it's politics.
32:12
Speaker 1: It's there's money involved. You know, there could be you know,
32:16
Speaker 1: there could be legal consequences maybe, who knows. So it
32:20
Speaker 1: makes sense to say, oh, it came from you know,
32:24
Speaker 1: the native people eating the monkeys. You know, that's a
32:29
Speaker 1: that's I mean, I don't even maybe for them, that
32:33
Speaker 1: seems like an elegant solution.
32:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the way this gets tied to Africa is
32:40
Speaker 2: that first scientist to develop this vaccine, Joseph Falk, His
32:45
Speaker 2: injected vaccine eventually killed eleven kids. There was a bad
32:50
Speaker 2: batch basically that made hundreds of people sick. It killed
32:54
Speaker 2: eleven kids. So we started looking for another vaccine, and
32:59
Speaker 2: Hillary Kaprowski had this oral vaccine that he wanted to test,
33:04
Speaker 2: but he wanted to test it fast because this was
33:08
Speaker 2: now a crisis that he could capitalize on. So he
33:12
Speaker 2: ends up testing it in the Belgian Congo. And what's
33:18
Speaker 2: really interesting is he starts testing his polio vaccine in
33:23
Speaker 2: the Belgian Congo, and the first AIDS cases that everyone
33:29
Speaker 2: in science has documented as the first AIDS cases start happening.
33:33
Speaker 2: A couple of years later, in the Belgian Congo.
33:37
Speaker 1: Amongst the victims of colonialism. Right, so it's not just
33:41
Speaker 1: you know, it's not the Belgians.
33:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course he Yeah, we say Belgian Congo,
33:47
Speaker 2: but these are black people that this was being tested on.
33:51
Speaker 2: It was the Congo was a fucking colony owned by
33:55
Speaker 2: Belgium at the time. Yeah, And so the first AIDS
34:00
Speaker 2: cases start popping up in that area at the exact
34:04
Speaker 2: same time this vaccine is being tested, which in.
34:08
Speaker 1: That timeframe, so if people were infected, then this would
34:12
Speaker 1: be the time that the age would start showing itself.
34:17
Speaker 1: And that does fit the timeline of when they were
34:19
Speaker 1: testing and possibly infected by his oral vaccination.
34:26
Speaker 2: Right. It's like, even if the argument is no, this
34:29
Speaker 2: is from people hunting monkeys and maybe getting scratched or
34:34
Speaker 2: infected otherwise infected in that process, the question is still
34:39
Speaker 2: why did it just start at this point? Like why
34:42
Speaker 2: did it start in the nineteen fifties? Yeah, especially hunting
34:47
Speaker 2: monkeys forever?
34:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially when they were saying that there probably were
34:52
Speaker 1: several different points where the SIV could have jumped and
34:56
Speaker 1: turned into HIV on the human and how come it
34:59
Speaker 1: didn't be I'm a pandemic at that time, right.
35:02
Speaker 2: And so in nineteen eighty five, pathologist Cecil Fox, who
35:06
Speaker 2: is interviewed extensively in this documentary, he went to the
35:11
Speaker 2: FDA to get the vaccine that had been used in
35:14
Speaker 2: the Congo tested for viruses, and he was told it
35:18
Speaker 2: was already tested, so it's fine. But back in nineteen
35:21
Speaker 2: fifty eight, there was at the same time Hillary Koprowski
35:27
Speaker 2: was testing his vaccine in the Congo, there was another
35:32
Speaker 2: polio vaccine developer named Albert Sabin who was also trying
35:37
Speaker 2: to develop a polio vaccine at the same time, and
35:41
Speaker 2: he analyzed Koupowski's vaccine, which was called CHAT, and found
35:45
Speaker 2: it to be unstable and contaminated by an unknown virus,
35:51
Speaker 2: which he called virus X.
35:53
Speaker 1: Kapowski didn't like that. In fact, he disliked it so
35:57
Speaker 1: much that he wrote Saban a letter in returned stating
35:59
Speaker 1: that he had some nerve. He had some nerve, Yeah,
36:02
Speaker 1: what nerve?
36:04
Speaker 2: And that is basically what his reply was was, Yeah,
36:10
Speaker 2: how dare you question me? I've been working on this
36:12
Speaker 2: for so many years and it's like, yeah, but your
36:15
Speaker 2: work is wrong.
36:16
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's you know, ego and and arrogance. That's
36:20
Speaker 1: a very human quality again, right, you know Koprowski, he's
36:24
Speaker 1: a scientist and he's a human.
36:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a scientist, but he's also an egotistical white
36:29
Speaker 2: dude who doesn't probably care if he killed a bunch
36:32
Speaker 2: of black people with AIDS with his fucking virus.
36:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's he went to the Belgian Congo for a reason.
36:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, to save white people from polio.
36:43
Speaker 1: At the expense of black people.
36:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, imagine. So in nineteen ninety nine, a guy named
36:51
Speaker 2: Edward Hooper published a book called The River in which
36:55
Speaker 2: he posits that chimpanzee blood went into making Kaprowski's vaccine, which.
37:01
Speaker 1: Is interesting because chimpanzees aren't even the best source of that,
37:06
Speaker 1: as we spoke about earlier.
37:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, as we mentioned earlier, when a chimpanzee gets HIV,
37:12
Speaker 2: it just fights it off and the HIV goes away.
37:16
Speaker 2: So if you're testing a vaccine on chimpanzees that contains HIV,
37:22
Speaker 2: it's not going to impact them the same way it
37:26
Speaker 2: will when you inject it into humans, who react to
37:29
Speaker 2: HIV a very different way. And the like, the whole
37:34
Speaker 2: crux of the controversy here is did Hillary Koprowski test
37:39
Speaker 2: his vaccine and derive his vaccine from chimpanzees or from monkeys,
37:45
Speaker 2: and he claims monkeys the whole fucking way. But the
37:49
Speaker 2: problem is, there is video of him testing vaccines on
37:55
Speaker 2: chimpanzees in the Congo in the nineteen fifties. He actually
37:59
Speaker 2: created a research camp in the Congo called Camp Lindy,
38:04
Speaker 2: which housed over four hundred chimpanzees, ostensibly to test his
38:09
Speaker 2: vaccines on. And again that's the whole thing. If he
38:14
Speaker 2: tested this vaccine on chimpanzees in not monkeys, this is
38:18
Speaker 2: absolutely where AIDS started. Like there's not much to debate.
38:23
Speaker 1: It makes sense, like.
38:25
Speaker 2: If you're testing it on an animal that doesn't respond
38:29
Speaker 2: to HIV the same way a human does, then it's
38:32
Speaker 2: it's not science, Like that's flawed science.
38:35
Speaker 1: Also, he was lying emphatically, you know, and then there's
38:38
Speaker 1: he's documented on tape, so it's like that suspect.
38:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, the fact that he would lie all of those
38:45
Speaker 2: years later, Yeah, like that's someone who's still living in
38:49
Speaker 2: that pre internet era where oh well, if it happened
38:52
Speaker 2: decades ago, no one's gonna find it.
38:54
Speaker 1: And it's like there's a lot of at stake for him. Yeah,
38:58
Speaker 1: he probably perceives there's a lot of at State, but
39:01
Speaker 1: I saw some of like how the chimp, the chimps
39:04
Speaker 1: were treated, and it was there were it was so cruel,
39:07
Speaker 1: and then you can, you know, chimpanzees are so close
39:10
Speaker 1: to humans, it's you know, you can it's not hard
39:14
Speaker 1: to empathize with them as they're being operated on while
39:18
Speaker 1: they're still alive, or you can or can their organs
39:21
Speaker 1: cut out of them while they're still alive. It's cruel.
39:25
Speaker 2: You can see the horror on these chimps faces in
39:29
Speaker 2: some of the images in this documentary. It hurts like
39:32
Speaker 2: they know what they're being led to, they know what
39:35
Speaker 2: is happening, and it's fucking heartbreaking. And it gave all
39:39
Speaker 2: of Africa AIDS. So yeah, like if he wasn't testing
39:44
Speaker 2: his vaccine on these chimps and developing his vaccine from
39:49
Speaker 2: these chimps, because that's the other thing. There are people
39:52
Speaker 2: in this documentary who are like, yeah, well, eventually all
39:55
Speaker 2: those chimps were slaughtered and that's not usually what happens
39:59
Speaker 2: to test animals. So if they were slaughtered, there had
40:03
Speaker 2: to be a reason why they needed to be slaughtered,
40:07
Speaker 2: which was perhaps their kidneys were harvested to make this
40:11
Speaker 2: polio vaccine and.
40:12
Speaker 1: They need those to survive. So without those, I mean,
40:15
Speaker 1: you got a dead a dead chimp.
40:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just got a you just got a gross
40:19
Speaker 2: hand puppet at that point.
40:22
Speaker 1: Oh, these chimps faces. It's it's it's a lot so
40:27
Speaker 1: sad because with the people, you know, you don't you
40:31
Speaker 1: don't torture them, You at least act like you're trying
40:34
Speaker 1: to help, Like, here's a vaccine. With the chimps, they
40:36
Speaker 1: didn't give a fuck.
40:38
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And for him to have this scientist, to
40:44
Speaker 2: this Hillary Kapowski guy, like he goes on TV and
40:49
Speaker 2: in front of all these cameras and it's like, no,
40:51
Speaker 2: I never did anything with chimps. And there's video like
40:55
Speaker 2: he's got a full whole fucking chimp factory and the
40:59
Speaker 2: congo at the time, he's got like four hundred chimps
41:02
Speaker 2: at the exact same time he's coming up with the
41:04
Speaker 2: polio vaccine. So where's the monkeys. Where's the video of
41:08
Speaker 2: you fucking with a bunch of monkeys at the time.
41:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's it's just the chimp one, right,
41:14
Speaker 1: there's no Yeah, evidence of any monkeys. What kind of
41:18
Speaker 1: monkeys were they using macaqus?
41:19
Speaker 2: They were supposed to be using macaqus.
41:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, from like Philippines India.
41:24
Speaker 2: Right, And those are the monkeys Joseph Fowk who his
41:28
Speaker 2: vaccine killed like eleven people and.
41:30
Speaker 1: We because it was a contaminated batch, right, And he
41:36
Speaker 1: was using monkeys from the philm like he was using monkeys.
41:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like the question the big question here is did
41:45
Speaker 2: Hillary Kaprowski actually use monkeys when he made this vaccine
41:50
Speaker 2: or did he use chimpanzees who if they were infected
41:54
Speaker 2: with HIV you wouldn't know because HIV doesn't infect them.
41:58
Speaker 2: And it seems like he was chimpanzees, like he was
42:02
Speaker 2: only working on chimpanzees at the time. And what's concerning
42:06
Speaker 2: about it is the way science has rallied around him
42:10
Speaker 2: and defended him in the face of all this evidence
42:14
Speaker 2: that he probably did spread the AIDS virus. Yeah.
42:18
Speaker 1: I was watching a lot of videos online just researching
42:22
Speaker 1: sort of the origin of AIDS and it is, you know,
42:25
Speaker 1: widely accepted that it came from hunting chimps and eating them.
42:30
Speaker 1: But you know, they even I think they'd bring up
42:32
Speaker 1: Kaprowski and then followed up with, well, you know, that's
42:37
Speaker 1: been debunked that he used chimps, you know, and they'll
42:41
Speaker 1: or they'll you know, they'll say something so it's not
42:44
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's brought up sometimes, but it's quickly
42:48
Speaker 1: brushed away. And it's strange because there's a lot of
42:53
Speaker 1: evidence against you know what, what Hillary said, Hillary Kaprowski.
42:58
Speaker 2: And the guy who wrote the book The River, his
43:01
Speaker 2: name's Edward Hooper. He actually, at one point was brave
43:05
Speaker 2: enough to go in front of a bunch of television
43:09
Speaker 2: cameras and the entire country of England and debate all
43:13
Speaker 2: of these scientists about the origin of AIDS. And at
43:19
Speaker 2: this debate they were able to shut him down because
43:23
Speaker 2: they asserted that the vaccine samples from the Congo had
43:27
Speaker 2: been dug up and tested in a lab in London
43:30
Speaker 2: and there had been no traces of HIV, SIV or
43:34
Speaker 2: chimp DNA.
43:35
Speaker 1: And they're putting their foot down.
43:37
Speaker 2: Right and the world at large, especially the scientific community.
43:42
Speaker 2: They go into detail on this in the documentary, like,
43:45
Speaker 2: once you have a theory or a hypothesis, if someone
43:48
Speaker 2: else in science effectively kills that hypothesis, they'd never talk
43:53
Speaker 2: about it anymore. And this is what science used to
43:57
Speaker 2: kill this hypothesis that maybe AIDS spread as a result
44:02
Speaker 2: of the polio vaccine. Their argument was, we dug up
44:05
Speaker 2: the samples of the vaccine and none of them had
44:07
Speaker 2: any of that in it. But the problem is someone
44:11
Speaker 2: they interview in this documentary also attests to this. All
44:15
Speaker 2: of the samples were used, Like none of those samples
44:18
Speaker 2: from back then even exist, So they not only didn't
44:22
Speaker 2: dig them up, there were none to dig up. They
44:25
Speaker 2: just lied. And everyone was like, oh, well, they're scientists,
44:28
Speaker 2: so yeah, they must be telling the truth.
44:30
Speaker 1: They know what they're talking about, Yeah, they must. I mean,
44:33
Speaker 1: it's just like, you know, most people aren't scientists, so
44:37
Speaker 1: you you know, sort of defer your science opinion to
44:41
Speaker 1: someone who knows what the fuck they're talking about, or
44:43
Speaker 1: you'd assume they know what they're talking about. So there's
44:45
Speaker 1: a lot of I think, just trust because it's convenient.
44:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the thing about trust, whenever there's a big
44:54
Speaker 2: conspiracy theory like this that's happening in Africa, all of
44:58
Speaker 2: the people who who are going to give witness testimony
45:03
Speaker 2: about how it's real are going to be black people
45:06
Speaker 2: living in Africa, and I think in cases like this,
45:10
Speaker 2: the government or whoever is behind this is like, well,
45:13
Speaker 2: if they ask those people, they're like, no one's gonna
45:16
Speaker 2: believe them anyway. Like there was we did an episode
45:19
Speaker 2: about the death of Dog Hommerschold, who was he was
45:23
Speaker 2: the Secretary General of the UN who was very adamant
45:28
Speaker 2: that white countries needed to stop exploiting Africa for financial gain,
45:34
Speaker 2: and mysteriously his plane crashed on a trip to Africa.
45:39
Speaker 2: And there are all of these people who live in
45:42
Speaker 2: the country where his plane crashed, who were around the
45:45
Speaker 2: area at the time, who have given their testimony about how, yeah,
45:50
Speaker 2: his plane was like I heard people shooting that plane down.
45:54
Speaker 2: But they're all black people living in Africa. And when
45:56
Speaker 2: you're dealing with the US government, they're not going to
45:59
Speaker 2: take the statements into account, especially if it's them versus
46:04
Speaker 2: someone relating to the US military or scientific community. Like
46:09
Speaker 2: those voice Like.
46:11
Speaker 1: Those voices aren't heard.
46:12
Speaker 2: Those voices aren't heard anywhere, So imagine how little predence
46:18
Speaker 2: they're given in a situation like this. It has taken
46:22
Speaker 2: us like fifty years for the country to believe black
46:27
Speaker 2: people when they say that police are just indiscriminately killing
46:30
Speaker 2: black people. So imagine this is that kind.
46:33
Speaker 1: Of the KKK turned into the police.
46:37
Speaker 2: Right, exactly, KKK white nationalists, they're.
46:40
Speaker 1: All police now, the slave catchers.
46:44
Speaker 2: Right, And so imagine what kind of uphill battle you're
46:48
Speaker 2: in if you're just a journalist, which is what both
46:51
Speaker 2: of the like Edward Hooper and the guy who wrote
46:55
Speaker 2: the Rolling Stone article. I don't remember his name off
46:57
Speaker 2: the top of my head, but that comes up in
47:00
Speaker 2: this documentary a lot that they're just journalists.
47:03
Speaker 1: They're just journalists, they're not scientists. But their research is comprehensive.
47:08
Speaker 1: It's comprehensive, and you don't have to understand science to
47:11
Speaker 1: know that someone's lying about being on a video with chimps,
47:15
Speaker 1: you know.
47:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, and their research proved that science was incorrect.
47:22
Speaker 1: Wells science was incorrect the scientists, those scientists were lying, right,
47:28
Speaker 1: So that's not science that they were because they weren't
47:31
Speaker 1: giving true scientific results.
47:33
Speaker 2: But the problem is, I think it's still kind of
47:37
Speaker 2: a parallel to police Like what happened after this is
47:42
Speaker 2: instead of the majority of scientists going, oh, yeah, you're right,
47:46
Speaker 2: that was some bullshit science that they did, all of
47:49
Speaker 2: these other scientists had based a lot of their work
47:53
Speaker 2: on what this guy did, and instead of risking their work,
47:56
Speaker 2: they just doubled down on Kapowski being right, which just
48:00
Speaker 2: what you see with cops like you see like when
48:04
Speaker 2: like with the fucking team in Buffalo that pushed that
48:07
Speaker 2: seventy five year old Antifa super soldier over, Like after
48:12
Speaker 2: those two got fired or suspended, everyone else was like,
48:16
Speaker 2: now we.
48:16
Speaker 1: Resign in solidarity with these stormtroopers.
48:21
Speaker 2: Right, And this is a case of science rallying around
48:26
Speaker 2: someone because they didn't want to be wrong about having
48:30
Speaker 2: rallied around him for all of these years.
48:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's disruptive to their status quo.
48:35
Speaker 2: Right. The big argument again is still, did Koprowski make
48:42
Speaker 2: these vaccines from the kidneys of chimpanzees, because that is
48:48
Speaker 2: what would be the definitive link to him having been
48:53
Speaker 2: instrumental in spreading AIDS. And they actually interview someone in
49:00
Speaker 2: Stone Ninan who spent six months in Belgium working with
49:05
Speaker 2: this same scientist, and this is a quote. The virus's
49:09
Speaker 2: cultivated on kidney cells, on chimpanzee kidney cells. We would
49:15
Speaker 2: use a flask like this, And this was at the
49:17
Speaker 2: beginning because the chimp kidney cell multiplies easily, and it
49:22
Speaker 2: was a good substitute for the poliovirus. So there are
49:26
Speaker 2: He's not the only one. They interview a lot of
49:30
Speaker 2: doctors and scientists and lab workers who all just also
49:34
Speaker 2: happened to be relatively poor people living in the Congo.
49:39
Speaker 2: And I know, if you're a racist American, it's easy
49:43
Speaker 2: to hear that testimony and write it off because they're
49:47
Speaker 2: not real scientists. But these are the people that worked
49:50
Speaker 2: with this guy. What motivation do they have to lie?
49:53
Speaker 2: They're not being paid, Like, this is a documentary that
49:56
Speaker 2: came out in two thousand and four. Nobody got rich
49:58
Speaker 2: from it.
49:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of these scientists, you know, especially
50:03
Speaker 1: the local ones that are very old, there's really nothing
50:07
Speaker 1: to lose. They're not rich, you know, they're probably towards
50:11
Speaker 1: the end of their lives because it's two thousand and
50:14
Speaker 1: four and they were working in these labs.
50:16
Speaker 2: What the fifties, right, And there's no like, there's not
50:19
Speaker 2: a single person they interview who comes off as if
50:22
Speaker 2: he's making up a fantastical story about what happened, because
50:27
Speaker 2: it's really not. This isn't a fantastical story. The only
50:32
Speaker 2: issue here is did this vaccine come from chimpanzees or monkeys,
50:38
Speaker 2: that's it. Like, we know a vaccine for polio was
50:42
Speaker 2: developed in the Congo using primates of some sort, and
50:46
Speaker 2: we also know that AIDS cases started very shortly thereafter.
50:52
Speaker 2: So the only real question is how much do you
50:56
Speaker 2: trust this scientist to tell you the truth about out
51:00
Speaker 2: whether he used chimpanzees, Because if he used chimpanzees, this
51:04
Speaker 2: motherfucker started the AIDS crisis in Africa. It's as simple
51:09
Speaker 2: as that. And there is video evidence of him conducting
51:14
Speaker 2: his work on chimpanzees. So sorry if he's a scientist,
51:18
Speaker 2: but this motherfucker's lying, And why wouldn't you like why, Like,
51:22
Speaker 2: no one's going to be like, yep, started aid's got
51:24
Speaker 2: a patch on my jacket for it. Yeah.
51:26
Speaker 1: It's not something that most people could just fess up to,
51:31
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I mean it's just the effect of it.
51:35
Speaker 1: How many vaccines were given out I think.
51:38
Speaker 2: Someone I think over a million.
51:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, someone claims over a million were given in the
51:43
Speaker 1: Congo without what's his.
51:44
Speaker 2: Name, Hillary Kapowski.
51:46
Speaker 1: Does he claim his vaccines were made locally or not locally?
51:51
Speaker 1: He claims that they were not made locally, that there
51:53
Speaker 1: weren't any vaccine testing or making in his facilities, right,
51:59
Speaker 1: but then what was he doing? Just other testing, like
52:02
Speaker 1: non vaccine related testing.
52:04
Speaker 2: They interview people in the documentary who were who pretty
52:07
Speaker 2: much confirmed that vaccines were being made.
52:11
Speaker 1: There, Yeah, very specifically, and that they were taking the
52:14
Speaker 1: kidneys from chimps, right, sometimes while the chimps are still alive.
52:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, if we believe the claims made in this documentary,
52:23
Speaker 2: one million vaccines were given in the Congo without a
52:28
Speaker 2: single one of them being made locally. Which where were
52:31
Speaker 2: they coming where were they being made?
52:33
Speaker 1: Then that's a lot of vaccines.
52:35
Speaker 2: It's a lot of vaccines. And the people who were
52:38
Speaker 2: most instrumental in developing those vaccines were all in the
52:42
Speaker 2: Congo at the time. So where like, why would you
52:46
Speaker 2: outsource that to another lab If you're on the ground
52:51
Speaker 2: in the area where the vaccines are needed and you're
52:54
Speaker 2: doing all the research, but then at the last second
52:57
Speaker 2: all the vaccines come in from somewhere else. That is
53:00
Speaker 2: completely unreasonable, Like that is unreasonable to believe. There's no
53:04
Speaker 2: way anyone could actually believe that.
53:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well it's you know who has the power of
53:10
Speaker 1: writing the history books, Yeah, the science books. Who decides
53:14
Speaker 1: that this is this is what we're you know, going with,
53:17
Speaker 1: probably a white guy.
53:18
Speaker 2: Probably, yeah, like the same white guys who colonized Africa
53:23
Speaker 2: for a whole bunch of I mean still to this day,
53:27
Speaker 2: to some degrees. But like that's the thing, there's no
53:31
Speaker 2: reason to trust this guy just because he's a scientist. Like,
53:36
Speaker 2: he clearly fucked up. I think he clearly decided to
53:40
Speaker 2: cut corners and test this shit on chimpanzees, and like,
53:45
Speaker 2: we didn't know what HIV was at the time, so
53:48
Speaker 2: how could he really know that HIV doesn't impact chimpanzees
53:53
Speaker 2: the same way. And that's not me making an excuse
53:57
Speaker 2: because he's had decades and decades and decades. It's to
54:00
Speaker 2: be like, Yep, I fucked up, And what were we
54:03
Speaker 2: gonna do? Like, no one, Like we weren't going to
54:05
Speaker 2: fucking try him at the Hague.
54:07
Speaker 1: You don't that he might be prosecuted.
54:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it would have just maybe prevented more deaths
54:15
Speaker 2: in the future. So we should maybe try him at
54:17
Speaker 2: the Hague now. But had he just come out and
54:20
Speaker 2: been honest about it from the beginning, maybe not just.
54:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't know that these were infected, but I mean,
54:26
Speaker 1: if he's not being honest, that means he's trying to
54:28
Speaker 1: hide something for a reason. And that's because you know,
54:31
Speaker 1: he wasn't supposed to work on chimpanzees for vaccines. Yeah,
54:36
Speaker 1: why did he do that? What was why? How was
54:39
Speaker 1: that cutting corners? What was the benefit of using of
54:43
Speaker 1: testing on chimps versus monkeys?
54:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. If chimps were
54:49
Speaker 2: easier to find maybe.
54:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if, like I know, chimps are closer
54:53
Speaker 1: to humans, so I don't know if that was a factor.
54:57
Speaker 1: But also I think there was some I read somewhere
55:01
Speaker 1: that it was better to cultivate vaccines from from monkeys
55:07
Speaker 1: and chimps for whatever reason, even though they are closer
55:11
Speaker 1: in relation to humans.
55:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know why. I don't remember them bringing
55:17
Speaker 2: it up in the documentary why he would have used
55:21
Speaker 2: chimps over monkeys.
55:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's tough to know because it's not
55:26
Speaker 1: like we can ask him.
55:28
Speaker 2: Yeah he's dead now.
55:29
Speaker 1: Well, even when he was alive, Yeah, he was denying it, right,
55:33
Speaker 1: So it's like, why did you use chimps? The answers
55:36
Speaker 1: I did not, But.
55:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the one journalist who tried to go to
55:41
Speaker 2: the Congo to investigate it. It was a guy named
55:45
Speaker 2: Bill Hamilton. He went in two thousand and immediately died
55:48
Speaker 2: of malaria, like the second he got there. Oh wow.
55:51
Speaker 2: So yeah, this is like this documentary came out in
55:55
Speaker 2: two thousand and four, which is sixteen years ago, and
56:00
Speaker 2: it was kind of a big story in Rolling Stone
56:02
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two. But science has mostly shut this
56:07
Speaker 2: notion down, the idea that AIDS might have started with
56:11
Speaker 2: a vaccine of polio vaccine in the nineteen forties or fifties.
56:15
Speaker 2: And I don't know if it's ever gonna come back up.
56:18
Speaker 2: And it's unfortunate because I know, like, as a white dude,
56:23
Speaker 2: I grew up hearing people say, you know how AIDS
56:26
Speaker 2: happened if someone fucked a monkey, And it's like, that's
56:29
Speaker 2: one thing that never comes up in this documentary. Yeah,
56:32
Speaker 2: never is it suggested that anyone had sex with a
56:35
Speaker 2: monkey to start AIDS. But like it would be beneficial
56:40
Speaker 2: just for world relations in general, if this story could
56:44
Speaker 2: be clarified and people could just come out and be like,
56:47
Speaker 2: here's what happened. We started a fucking vaccine and it
56:51
Speaker 2: was tainted and we gave people AIDS.
56:53
Speaker 1: Sorry, it's another case of white people fucking over black people.
56:59
Speaker 1: That's also not something that I could see them more
57:05
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes, meaning like like a lot all the time, constantly.
57:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. People just in general don't like
57:15
Speaker 2: to be wrong. Yeah, Like you see it with cases
57:19
Speaker 2: where someone's in prison for something they clearly didn't do,
57:23
Speaker 2: and there will be these prosecutors who are just like, no,
57:26
Speaker 2: we'll try them again. They get out and it's like,
57:28
Speaker 2: do you watch TV, Like the person you're trying is
57:32
Speaker 2: clearly innocent and you were just an arrogant fuck stick
57:35
Speaker 2: who needs to lose their job. And I think that's
57:38
Speaker 2: kind of what's happening here. Is clearly a bunch of
57:42
Speaker 2: scientists made a mistake and a lot of other scientists
57:45
Speaker 2: rallied around them, and like what does it change now, Like,
57:49
Speaker 2: just come out and say it. Just come out and say, yeah,
57:52
Speaker 2: this is where AID started started with fucking polio vaccine.
57:55
Speaker 2: We're sorry, but maybe this will help you research it
57:59
Speaker 2: better going forward.
58:00
Speaker 1: Yeah.
58:00
Speaker 2: But instead people just fucking lie and cover it up
58:03
Speaker 2: because they're too proud to be wrong. Ego fucking nuts.
58:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, the bigger your ego, the more fragile you are,
58:10
Speaker 1: you know, can't handle the truth.
58:12
Speaker 2: Oh it's fucking disappointing.
58:14
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I mean every Yeah, I think almost
58:19
Speaker 1: everything I watched went with the story that it came
58:23
Speaker 1: from monkey meat and hunting monkeys. But and the ones
58:27
Speaker 1: that did bring this up, you know, brought it up
58:29
Speaker 1: and then said, but no, that was you know, that
58:32
Speaker 1: was never proven. So it's the monkey meat. We're going
58:35
Speaker 1: with the monkey meat story.
58:36
Speaker 2: Yeah. Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever seen a picture,
58:39
Speaker 2: like video of someone eating a monkey. Monkeys are cool.
58:42
Speaker 2: Who's eating monkeys?
58:43
Speaker 1: Well, it's just like, would you eat something that you
58:46
Speaker 1: can relate to and hang out with and cuddle with?
58:49
Speaker 1: Like I don't, Yeah, that's not really for me.
58:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like monkeys aren't the only game in town,
58:56
Speaker 2: Like kill all sorts of animals and eat them. Who knows.
58:59
Speaker 2: What I'd do know is that AIDS started with the
59:02
Speaker 2: polio vaccine in the Congo. So you're certain I've fel
59:05
Speaker 2: like I like to end every one of these podcasts
59:09
Speaker 2: by saying, whether I do or don't agree with this theory,
59:13
Speaker 2: I won hundred percent believe this is how AIDS started.
59:18
Speaker 2: And we still have to get into the whole other
59:20
Speaker 2: thing about was AIDS spread intentionally? Oh yeah, various governments.
59:27
Speaker 1: Well, according to I guess mainstream science, this spread to
59:32
Speaker 1: the spread outside of the Congo area happened because the area. Okay,
59:37
Speaker 1: so all the Belgium's left because of political unrest, So
59:41
Speaker 1: to replace.
59:42
Speaker 2: Is this when someone fucks a monkey?
59:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean just imagine that after every action they
59:48
Speaker 1: fuck a monkey, there was a massive so it was
59:50
Speaker 1: all dudes that came to fill in those positions. They
59:53
Speaker 1: got a lot of workers from Haiti, and there was
59:56
Speaker 1: a major sex trade because there are a lot of
1:00:00
Speaker 1: guys who you know, Belgium.
1:00:03
Speaker 2: The Belgium Congo monkey fucking insurrection.
1:00:06
Speaker 1: And thus the monkey fucking Right. But I guess since
1:00:13
Speaker 1: HIV is spread easily through sex, they're saying it's spread
1:00:18
Speaker 1: out that way. And then maybe one of the Haitian
1:00:21
Speaker 1: migrants went back obviously not knowing that he was infected
1:00:27
Speaker 1: and no way of really knowing because you wouldn't even
1:00:30
Speaker 1: have symptoms for ten years, and infected people in Haiti,
1:00:32
Speaker 1: and then it's spread to the US and then it's
1:00:35
Speaker 1: all over the world. This is HIV one. HIV two
1:00:40
Speaker 1: is actually only accounts for I believe one percent of
1:00:44
Speaker 1: the cases and is less contagious, but HIV one is
1:00:46
Speaker 1: the one that turns into AIDS. But now you know,
1:00:50
Speaker 1: now that you know the government was starting to figure
1:00:53
Speaker 1: out what AIDS is, it's like, yeah, we're you know,
1:00:57
Speaker 1: did they, you know, use this to introduce a weapon
1:01:02
Speaker 1: into communities, a biological weapon to disin further disenfranchise communities
1:01:08
Speaker 1: which are already marginalized.
1:01:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was. We haven't explored weather or to what
1:01:14
Speaker 2: degree that happened in the United States, but we did
1:01:17
Speaker 2: an episode I mentioned it earlier about the death of
1:01:21
Speaker 2: former UN Secretary General Dog hommer Should, And there's a
1:01:26
Speaker 2: really great documentary called Cold Case hommer Should, which is
1:01:30
Speaker 2: worth watching because it starts out about his death, which
1:01:34
Speaker 2: is also a very compelling story. But then it ends
1:01:37
Speaker 2: with a government related organization and maybe American government related organization,
1:01:45
Speaker 2: very intentionally spreading AIDS in South Africa and doing it
1:01:50
Speaker 2: under the guise of free health clinics where people could
1:01:54
Speaker 2: come get checked out for various diseases for free in
1:01:58
Speaker 2: low income neighborhoods in South Africa. And what that guy
1:02:02
Speaker 2: was actually doing was literally injecting people with AIDS so disgusting.
1:02:08
Speaker 2: It is it, It's disgusting, and it feels like a
1:02:11
Speaker 2: thing where not only are we not being honest about
1:02:16
Speaker 2: how it started, but I think we're not being honest
1:02:19
Speaker 2: fucking right. Yeah. It was all monkeys, all fucking monkeys,
1:02:23
Speaker 2: which is crazy because I've fucked so many monkeys.
1:02:26
Speaker 1: Oh god, I'm getting horny.
1:02:27
Speaker 2: And as far as I know, I don't even have AIDS. Yeah,
1:02:31
Speaker 2: but you know you don't have any signs.
1:02:33
Speaker 1: I mean, you only started fucking monkeys a year ago.
1:02:35
Speaker 1: You still got nine years to figure for the for
1:02:40
Speaker 1: the virus to go. Whoo.
1:02:42
Speaker 2: I can still roll them dice for almost a decade.
1:02:46
Speaker 1: Whoo.
1:02:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. This is like just.
1:02:49
Speaker 1: Seeing the way they tortured those monkeys and the way
1:02:53
Speaker 1: you know, they were registering what was happening to them,
1:02:56
Speaker 1: like like anyone would if you were being tortured. It's
1:03:00
Speaker 1: that shit hurt.
1:03:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a This is a hard documentary to watch,
1:03:04
Speaker 2: especially if you're an animal person.
1:03:06
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but I mean it's it's important to know.
1:03:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know, I hope this comes back
1:03:14
Speaker 2: up in some official way at some point, because it
1:03:17
Speaker 2: feels like a very dead issue right now. But the
1:03:20
Speaker 2: idea that just white governments in general, we're just really
1:03:26
Speaker 2: spreading age.
1:03:27
Speaker 3: And as you know, it's it's the lack of accountability, yes,
1:03:31
Speaker 3: and that is that is something that we see throughout
1:03:34
Speaker 3: white history when it comes to you know, just pillaging people.
1:03:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's the like, it's kind of the same
1:03:43
Speaker 2: thing as reparations, where you'll hear a lot of white
1:03:46
Speaker 2: people be like, ooh, I didn't do it, Like what
1:03:49
Speaker 2: do you want me to do now? And it's like
1:03:51
Speaker 2: a lot of these fucking corporations that are thriving in
1:03:56
Speaker 2: this country right now, we're built on slave labor. Yeah,
1:04:00
Speaker 2: those motherfuckers should be paying reparations.
1:04:03
Speaker 1: Or they can burn it down, question about it, or
1:04:06
Speaker 1: they can burn it down it's theirs. Yeah, either one.
1:04:10
Speaker 1: But to me, it happen to me, I'd say, just
1:04:14
Speaker 1: just give him the reparations. You just give them what
1:04:16
Speaker 1: you promised, you know, account for inflation reparations, you know,
1:04:21
Speaker 1: don't actually give someone a fucking mule right now, Like
1:04:24
Speaker 1: that would just be an insult. I mean, who knows
1:04:29
Speaker 1: nice you know, they're you know, someone's like, you know,
1:04:33
Speaker 1: maybe the government's like, yeah, promp, Maybe we shouldn't give
1:04:35
Speaker 1: them a mule. And he's just like, no, wait, so
1:04:39
Speaker 1: we shouldn't give him preparations or should we not give
1:04:41
Speaker 1: a mule? No, that's just how I.
1:04:46
Speaker 4: Fucking fix it. Why is it fix it? Why is it
1:04:50
Speaker 4: not the money to fix it? Fucking fix it? And like,
1:04:54
Speaker 4: if you built your ship on slavery, fucking atone for it.
1:04:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you at college.
1:05:00
Speaker 2: And imagine the fucking pr cred you'd get for being like, hey,
1:05:04
Speaker 2: we were so shitty to black people. Here's forty five
1:05:08
Speaker 2: million dollars. Spread it amongst yourselves. And if every fucking
1:05:12
Speaker 2: company that built itself on slavery followed in suit by
1:05:16
Speaker 2: fucking get.
1:05:17
Speaker 1: Somewhere, I mean, they've spent more on less.
1:05:20
Speaker 2: They've probably spent more defending themselves against accusations of supporting slavery.
1:05:26
Speaker 1: Oh that's so real.
1:05:27
Speaker 2: Just spend it on making things right, you selfish fucks.
1:05:31
Speaker 2: And admit that you spread AIDS in the goddamn Congo
1:05:34
Speaker 2: in the nineteen fifties. We all know. We know, we
1:05:38
Speaker 2: know you spread aids. We know the CIA started the
1:05:42
Speaker 2: crack epidemic in this country, we fucking know. Just make
1:05:45
Speaker 2: it right.
1:05:46
Speaker 1: We got to get into those I'm really interested to
1:05:48
Speaker 1: sort of dive into America. We will, especially with this
1:05:53
Speaker 1: with this because Yeah, it's just interesting how it was
1:05:57
Speaker 1: common amongst one demograph and then it suddenly jumped to
1:06:01
Speaker 1: another and just completely was a plague in a specific community.
1:06:07
Speaker 1: It's it's there's a I have a lot of questions.
1:06:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, it went from one vulnerable community to another vulnerable community.
1:06:16
Speaker 2: How convenient for white people. That's why I had an
1:06:19
Speaker 2: AIDS T shirt in this. In the eighties, I was
1:06:22
Speaker 2: very racist. I've changed since then.
1:06:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, where'd you grow up?
1:06:25
Speaker 2: That's not true. I was very young in the very
1:06:28
Speaker 2: young in the age I grew up in. Actually I
1:06:30
Speaker 2: grew up in Peoria, Illinois, which was very fucking diverse.
1:06:34
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:06:34
Speaker 2: Like, if I could make any recommendation for white people,
1:06:37
Speaker 2: let's go back in time and grow up around black people. Yeah,
1:06:41
Speaker 2: it'll be fucking better off for it. Like, I grew
1:06:44
Speaker 2: up in a really diverse area and that's so very
1:06:47
Speaker 2: thankful for that.
1:06:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, diversity is it's such a fucking blessing. Like I
1:06:54
Speaker 1: remember I was interviewing, like back in college someone for
1:06:56
Speaker 1: a scholarship, a young white girl, and she was asking
1:07:00
Speaker 1: what I liked about the school and that was you know,
1:07:02
Speaker 1: what really struck me was the diversity there. And she's like, oh, no,
1:07:06
Speaker 1: I'm not really interested in that. I'm more interested in
1:07:09
Speaker 1: the sorority life. Kappa Kappa Kappa hey kk and I'm
1:07:15
Speaker 1: just kidding, but yeah, I didn't recommend her.
1:07:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think most Catholic schools exist to keep white
1:07:25
Speaker 2: people from having to send their kids to schools with
1:07:28
Speaker 2: people of color. Like all of the kids I grew
1:07:31
Speaker 2: up with who went to Catholic school, like, they just
1:07:34
Speaker 2: have no concept of black people at all. And it's
1:07:37
Speaker 2: like we all grew up in the same town and
1:07:39
Speaker 2: it was very, very diverse, Like you shouldn't be this way,
1:07:44
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, yeah, your parents paid for you
1:07:46
Speaker 2: to be this way. Nice.
1:07:49
Speaker 1: It's just, yeah, you're sociopaths creating sociopaths.
1:07:54
Speaker 2: What a fucking world we live.
1:07:55
Speaker 1: In a world indeed.
1:07:57
Speaker 2: But uh yeah, so black lives matter, the government spread AIDS,
1:08:03
Speaker 2: and I think that's our fucking gist for this week.
1:08:05
Speaker 1: Works for me. Yeah, those are the Clinton.
1:08:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll definitely do an episode at some point in
1:08:11
Speaker 2: the future about this same idea, but in the United States,
1:08:15
Speaker 2: because it's it's also a thing people have argued here, Yeah,
1:08:19
Speaker 2: that AIDS. And here's the thing, even if it wasn't
1:08:23
Speaker 2: spread intentionally here, it was ignored intentionally.
1:08:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the marginalized communities are being affected at disproportionate numbers.
1:08:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ronald Reagan, that administration literally did not say the
1:08:38
Speaker 2: word AIDS until nineteen eighty seven, and by that point,
1:08:43
Speaker 2: I think sixty eight hundred people had died in this country.
1:08:46
Speaker 2: They're razing.
1:08:47
Speaker 1: They were referring to it as something like the gay
1:08:49
Speaker 1: disease yep. And they didn't even know how it was
1:08:52
Speaker 1: being transferred. They had no idea. They're just like, somehow
1:08:55
Speaker 1: it just goes from gay to gay.
1:08:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it was killing gay people. It was a
1:08:59
Speaker 2: joke knowing that that is the history of this country.
1:09:03
Speaker 2: Like this, I say it all the time. America is
1:09:06
Speaker 2: a story of the most successful oppressor in the history
1:09:11
Speaker 2: of the world. Like that is what we are built on.
1:09:14
Speaker 2: We are great at oppressing people for our own fucking game.
1:09:17
Speaker 1: And you know what's so interesting is in history books
1:09:20
Speaker 1: for me, it was in the nineties we were taught
1:09:23
Speaker 1: of the first Americans as the oppressed. So that wow, right,
1:09:28
Speaker 1: like religious oppression.
1:09:29
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we were fleeing religious oppression, and it was.
1:09:32
Speaker 1: So horrible blah blah blah. And then we came here
1:09:36
Speaker 1: and we thrived, and then we had slavery, and then
1:09:38
Speaker 1: we had thrived. Just skip over that little part. Now,
1:09:41
Speaker 1: like history books I have heard all over the country
1:09:45
Speaker 1: are referring to slavery as indentured servitude, which is like
1:09:50
Speaker 1: black oracure, you know, just rewriting history to make yourself
1:09:54
Speaker 1: look better the person who's writing history.
1:09:57
Speaker 2: Those are two completely different things. Shared servants were at
1:10:01
Speaker 2: least promised something. Slaves were just kidnapped and forced into slavery.
1:10:06
Speaker 1: And being property.
1:10:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, America, why do we still live here? Still somewhere else.
1:10:12
Speaker 1: Because we're offensive and America? You know, we're all in debt.
1:10:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so cheap here in la That's what keeps me.
1:10:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I can't really afford to live anywhere else.
1:10:23
Speaker 2: You know.
1:10:23
Speaker 1: I came from Florida, and who let me tell.
1:10:26
Speaker 2: You the rents in Florida.
1:10:28
Speaker 1: I was like, you know what I need to pay
1:10:30
Speaker 1: state tax?
1:10:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm tired of paying eight hundred dollars a month
1:10:34
Speaker 2: for this three bedroom townhouse.
1:10:37
Speaker 5: Eight hundred a month in mortgage for this three bedroom mansion,
1:10:45
Speaker 5: eighteen bathrooms.
1:10:46
Speaker 2: What are we doing? So? I think that's our episode. Yeah,
1:10:50
Speaker 2: this was really good. We will uh yeah, we'll do
1:10:53
Speaker 2: another one of these about the spread of AIDS in
1:10:55
Speaker 2: the United States because it's also a really interesting story. Uh.
1:11:00
Speaker 2: Do we have anything to plug before we get out
1:11:02
Speaker 2: of here?
1:11:03
Speaker 1: I think support black lives matters. Black lives matter, you
1:11:08
Speaker 1: you know, not everyone has to go to the protests.
1:11:11
Speaker 1: You know, there's different ways to protest and and you know,
1:11:16
Speaker 1: affect change. So I'd just say educate yourself, especially if
1:11:22
Speaker 1: you're not a person of color. And I have some
1:11:26
Speaker 1: information on my page as well on Instagram, it's just
1:11:29
Speaker 1: my name at physitisani and then I can be found
1:11:32
Speaker 1: on the internet at physitisani and all the platforms visitisani
1:11:35
Speaker 1: dot com and uh. I have a weekly podcast as well,
1:11:38
Speaker 1: Facial Recognition Comedy. And we are going to try to
1:11:42
Speaker 1: amplify black voices as much as we can. Brianna Tailors,
1:11:46
Speaker 1: Brianna Tailors killers are have not been charged yet.
1:11:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's fucked up.
1:11:52
Speaker 1: She was killed in her sleep, in her own house.
1:11:54
Speaker 2: We are We're going to be doing a thing on
1:11:57
Speaker 2: pops where we uh, We're going to be giving up
1:12:00
Speaker 2: a bunch of our ad slots that would normally be
1:12:03
Speaker 2: used to strike it rich in the Hello Fresh promotion market,
1:12:07
Speaker 2: and we're going to be using those to promote various
1:12:11
Speaker 2: organizations and causes that are fighting against police terrorism and
1:12:17
Speaker 2: racial inequality and things like So, if you are part
1:12:21
Speaker 2: of one of those organizations and want us to feature
1:12:25
Speaker 2: you in one of those spots, tweet at us or
1:12:29
Speaker 2: email me at Adam Todd Brown at on pops dot
1:12:32
Speaker 2: com and we will get you worked into that. And uh,
1:12:37
Speaker 2: that's all I want to plug. It feels like such
1:12:39
Speaker 2: a weird time to be like, oh, my god of
1:12:42
Speaker 2: a zoom show, coming out to watch my Zoom show.
1:12:45
Speaker 2: I know all of that fucking support Black Lives Matter.
1:12:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know it's it's really there's an
1:12:53
Speaker 1: advantage when there's momentum, when there's movement, right, so you know,
1:12:58
Speaker 1: we we can't waste it.
1:13:00
Speaker 2: Yeah. I in my conspiracy theorist heart really think the
1:13:04
Speaker 2: government thought America was going to see images of people
1:13:08
Speaker 2: looting on those first few nights of the protest and
1:13:11
Speaker 2: be like, oh no, keep that from coming to my neighborhood.
1:13:14
Speaker 2: And the government miscalculated most neighborhoods are just mad about
1:13:18
Speaker 2: police violence and want it to fucking end.
1:13:21
Speaker 1: Power to the people, man power to the people. When
1:13:24
Speaker 1: we you know, it's a lot of shit happened in
1:13:27
Speaker 1: the last few days that just wouldn't have otherwise because
1:13:30
Speaker 1: we lit a fire.
1:13:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we need to keep that fucking fire going
1:13:35
Speaker 2: because there are so many more changes that still need
1:13:38
Speaker 2: to happen.
1:13:39
Speaker 1: So yeah, I was just going to say, like it,
1:13:41
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen with Corona now
1:13:43
Speaker 1: because they're opening everything up. There has not been any
1:13:47
Speaker 1: new treatment or vaccine, so it's like, what's going to happen.
1:13:50
Speaker 1: Like I just found out a friend of mine in
1:13:52
Speaker 1: New York passed away from COVID at thirty one years old,
1:13:56
Speaker 1: So it's Jesus. Yeah. Yeah, So it's like, what's the
1:13:59
Speaker 1: government doing, Like is it worth putting people at risk?
1:14:03
Speaker 1: So you can sort of brush away the movement and
1:14:06
Speaker 1: hopefully like hope that the news cycle changes.
1:14:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do worry about My worry once again
1:14:13
Speaker 2: in my conspiracy theorist heart is that the protests, like
1:14:17
Speaker 2: the protests are naturally going to lead to some coronavirus outbreaks,
1:14:21
Speaker 2: Like that's inevitable, But I worry that what's going to
1:14:24
Speaker 2: happen next is states will be like, Okay, if you
1:14:28
Speaker 2: were at one of these protests, we need you to
1:14:30
Speaker 2: quarantine for fourteen days, and people will take that as
1:14:33
Speaker 2: a suggestion, not realizing the capability the government has to
1:14:38
Speaker 2: track your movements based on where your phone goes. Yeah,
1:14:42
Speaker 2: and people will break those quarantines and they'll get fucking arrested.
1:14:46
Speaker 1: And that's what they're saying, like at the protest, to
1:14:49
Speaker 1: put your phone in airplane mode so you're not.
1:14:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, or turn your location services off, yeah, so you
1:14:54
Speaker 2: can't be tracked. That's very important because I do like
1:14:59
Speaker 2: if you look at any of these articles about oh,
1:15:02
Speaker 2: fifty eight people got coronavirus from going to this hair
1:15:05
Speaker 2: dresser in Missouri. The reason they know that is they're
1:15:08
Speaker 2: able to trace those people's phones. And if you took
1:15:12
Speaker 2: your phone to a protest and it comes out that
1:15:15
Speaker 2: you're supposed to quarantine, bucking quarantine and protest fourteen days
1:15:20
Speaker 2: from now. Otherwise I promise you you will be arrested
1:15:24
Speaker 2: on a federal charge of spreading a biological weapon. Yeah.
1:15:28
Speaker 2: The government has already gone, like the Department of Justice
1:15:32
Speaker 2: has already said people who knowingly spread coronavirus are spreading
1:15:37
Speaker 2: a biological weapon, and that feels like a trap they're
1:15:41
Speaker 2: setting for protesters to be like, well, coronavirus is still
1:15:45
Speaker 2: a thing. If you leave your house, you're going to
1:15:47
Speaker 2: be in prison for five years.
1:15:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, because, I mean it's interesting because unlike AIDS, which
1:15:51
Speaker 1: is transferred, you know, through something very specific, coronavirus is
1:15:56
Speaker 1: droplets in the air. You know, someone can intentionally infect
1:16:00
Speaker 1: someone with AIDS but accidentally infect them with corona not
1:16:06
Speaker 1: even knowing, right if if they're aware, if there's you know,
1:16:09
Speaker 1: depending on who's aware of their status, and.
1:16:12
Speaker 2: Especially if you get tear gassed at a protest and
1:16:14
Speaker 2: everyone starts coughing.
1:16:16
Speaker 1: I mean I was one of the protests before, like
1:16:18
Speaker 1: you know, all the cops were still there and that
1:16:20
Speaker 1: the National Guard was there. Someone pulled down a protester's
1:16:24
Speaker 1: mask and basically mace them or pepper sprayed them in
1:16:28
Speaker 1: the face.
1:16:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. We talked about that on the last done Popps,
1:16:32
Speaker 2: Like wouldn't it be so much more effective to pepper
1:16:34
Speaker 2: spray that mask too, Like why even pull the mask down,
1:16:38
Speaker 2: Like it's gonna hurt so much if you spray that
1:16:41
Speaker 2: cloth mask that they're wearing too, Like, what an asshole move.
1:16:45
Speaker 1: They're trying to be dicks, but they're like dumb too.
1:16:48
Speaker 2: It's almost as if the police are fucking awful and
1:16:51
Speaker 2: need to be disbanded.
1:16:53
Speaker 1: Huh.
1:16:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what. I just thought of that.
1:16:56
Speaker 1: I need to process that.
1:16:57
Speaker 2: That's me being my widest. Yeah, I just thought of that.
1:17:01
Speaker 2: That's my idea just being the defund the police. Yeah,
1:17:03
Speaker 2: it's me. I thought of all of that. Yeah, defund
1:17:07
Speaker 2: the fucking police. Black Lives matter. Stop being a racist
1:17:10
Speaker 2: piece of shit. That's what I have to plug this week.
1:17:12
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter.
1:17:14
Speaker 2: All right, let's get the fuck out of here. Fizzis
1:17:16
Speaker 2: say goodbye.
1:17:17
Speaker 1: Bye, y'all. Thank you for having me, Adam Todd.
1:17:20
Speaker 2: Goodbye everybody. We love you.