Latest / Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt / Duke Dang, Executive Director of Works & Process

Transcript

Duke Dang, Executive Director of Works & Process · Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt

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Hey everyone. Welcome back to CI to Eye. Here's today's question:
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In a world drowning in content, most of which is perfect and polished,
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what do we actually hunger for? Personally, I'm craving messiness:
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the process of making; the moment before the thing becomes the thing.
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My guest today has built his life's work around exactly that idea.
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Duke Dang is Executive Director of Works & Process,
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a performing arts organization that has spent four decades doing what most
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institutions are too precious to try:
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letting audiences in the room while the work is still being made.
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Duke came to America as a refugee and found himself in the performing arts
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almost by accident.
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He's spent the years since dismantling every assumption about who the arts are
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for, who gets paid to make them,
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and what it means to truly take care of an artist.
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There's a ton to explore in the work he shares in our conversation.
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I hope it'll challenge you and make you think about what you can do next at your
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own organization. And for those of you keeping count,
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yes,
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there is another Andrew Lloyd Weber revival name-checked in this very episode.
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Let's jump in.
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Duke Dang, welcome to CI to Eye!
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Thank you so much for being on the podcast with me today.
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It is such a joy to see your face and to be talking with you about your
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background and about Works & Process.
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Thank you so much. It's really an honor to be here.
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We like to start out by getting a sense of who you are and where your love for
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the arts came from. So when you think back,
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can you share a little bit about what your first encounter with the arts was
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growing up?
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Yeah, I remember the exact moment.
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I was born in a refugee camp. I came to America as an immigrant,
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very poor, and English is a second language for me,
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and it was in second grade.
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I went to Starview Elementary and the school had a partnership with the then
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Orange County Performing Arts Center,
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which is now called the Segerstrom Center for the Arts.
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They bused us to a performance that had an array of mediums.
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And opera, I didn't understand. Theater,
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I really didn't speak English at that time. Music was great.
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But when the dance was on stage,
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I immediately connected.
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I sensed that this medium is universal. We all have bodies, right?
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So fast forward,
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I'm in high school and I go to see
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the first Broadway national tour of Rent. It's in Orange County.
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It's very conservative.
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I hadn't come out of the closet yet. This was before Will & Grace,
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and to see a gay love story on stage --
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to see your story on stage --
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and to realize that you're not alone,
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that for me was when I realized how powerful
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the performing arts can be.
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So I think those two formative experiences really was the
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beginning.
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I was fortunate in that I ended up at Boston University on a full
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ride and freshman year my elective was Art History 101,
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and that nurtured the seeds that were
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planted. And I said to my parents,
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'I want to pursue studies in the arts,' and they
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thought I was crazy, but at the same time, I was there at BU on a full ride.
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And what I knew for sure was I did not want to go
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home over summer break, so I was like,
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I need to find a paid summer internship.
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Let's put this into context. It's 2001 at this point.
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The idea of a paid internship wasn't really in the
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zeitgeist at that moment,
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but I was really fortunate that I landed an internship at
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the Glimmerglass Opera. It's now called Glimmerglass Festival.
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And Glimmerglass provided housing.
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They provided transportation. They provided a stipend.
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And I was like, I'm there. I am there.
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Here we go.
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I want to talk more about Glimmerglass and the experience of having that type of
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internship where the intern was so well taken care of, because as you say,
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not everyone can afford to take an unpaid internship or an underpaid
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internship even.
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So how do you think that reality shapes then who ends up working and staying in
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the arts?
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Well, I have to say my experience again is I came to America as a refugee and
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just, we had no money. I grew up on Section 8, housing vouchers,
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welfare, food stamps. I'm a product of Head Start.
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When I was vulnerable,
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there were systems in place to support my family and myself.
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The performing arts,
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if you don't have access to a paid internship and you don't have the resources
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to be involved in an unpaid internship, you can't even walk through the door.
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It's game over.
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That's right.
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And fortunately 25 years later,
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we've come around to this idea that interns need to be paid.
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So we've made progress. Let's celebrate that.
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Yes, agreed. Thank you.
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So talk us through a little bit Glimmerglass to Works & Process.
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Yeah, so I continued to study art history,
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kept on applying for summer internships,
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and the next summer I applied to the Getty in
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California and they also had a paid summer internship
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program,
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and the Getty immediately placed me into the performing arts
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program. And fast forward a year,
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I apply to the Guggenheim,
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and the Guggenheim looked at my resume and said, well,
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he worked at the performing arts program at the Getty.
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We'll place him with Works & Process, our performing arts partner.
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And that's how this started.
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It was summer of 2003 and I moved to New York City.
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I find a sublet on Craigslist,
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and I arrive at Works & Process.
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There you go. 23 years ago, right?
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Yes.
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Can you believe that?
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Time flies.
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When I think of Works & Process,
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I also think of it as a bit of an artistic laboratory.
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But for folks who may not know Works & Process at all,
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will you walk us through how you would describe to someone on the street who
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asked you, 'Where is it that you work? What is it that you do?'.
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Yeah,
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so we understand how the food that we eat goes from farm to table,
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how a seed is planted, nurtured, harvested, brought to the supermarket.
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We buy it, we cook it, we eat it. With the performing arts,
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we don't really understand how artists go from idea to
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studio to stage.
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And Works & Process does that.
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We support artists and their creative process as they go from idea to
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studio to stage. And most importantly for me,
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we make sure that artists have the resources that they need --
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which includes studio space, housing,
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transportation, artist fees -- so that artists can not only create,
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they can create with dignity. The founder of Works & Process,
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her name is Mary Sharp Cronson.
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She founded Works & Process in 1984.
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Mrs. Cronson's story is that she came from an incredibly privileged,
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well-resourced family.
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Her mother was the chair of Martha Graham in the seventies and eighties. Her
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brother was the board chair of Juilliard.
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She was on the board of New York City Ballet and New York City Opera.
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And in the early eighties, the Guggenheim approached Mrs. Cronson and said,
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would you consider underwriting a performing arts series?
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And Mrs. Cronson recognized her privilege in that, growing up,
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she was always invited to go into the studio to see work
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created, to meet the artist,
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because if you understand how it's created, you value it,
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you engage with it, you invest in it, you understand it, and you champion it.
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And she said,
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everybody should have this access and that's why she created Works &
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Process.
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Works & Process is not the typical performing arts program because what we do
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is we weave performance with discussion with the creators
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while the work is being created.
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So you really get to go behind the scenes and you see as it's being
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cooked and you appreciate it more.
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We're all in on the conversation.
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Mrs. Cronson also came from a family that worked in hospitality,
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and so she was always thinking about how to take care of people.
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And it's out of that ethos that we continue to think
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about, how do we take better care of artists?
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How do we do a better job of welcoming audiences?
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And how do we make sure that everybody feels welcomed
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and a part of the community?
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Yeah, that's beautiful to hear and thank you for sharing more of the history,
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which I think is so important. I'm also curious,
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because Works & Process offers this opportunity for audiences to be viewing the
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work so early,
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why is that important for artists to also experience having audiences
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there,
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encountering the audiences before a work is ready for
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prime time or the grand opening?
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What is the value there from the artist's perspective?
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Yeah, I'll continue with this food analogy.
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If you're cooking and you don't taste the food as you're cooking it and you
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just serve it,
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how do you know if it's working or not?
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So if you're an artist and you're creating work,
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don't you want to put it in front of a live audience from time to time just to
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say, wait, is it clicking? Am I connecting?
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And I think that goes --
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one thing that I'm sure people are sick of hearing me preach about is:
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one of my favorite Sondheim quotes that I'm not going to attempt in full here,
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is talking about the audience as the final step of a work of art being
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complete.
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What have you observed about how audiences respond when they're invited to be
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part of that creative process instead of just being handed a finished product?
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Yeah, I think about my story.
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I'm 43 years old and I am a byproduct of an America that for
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two generations has not had compulsory arts education, right?
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That's right.
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And yet we continue to present
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product. You see the show, you walk away,
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and you're supposed to get it.
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The reality is when you have two generations of Americans without arts
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education, the work doesn't speak for itself anymore,
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and we have to come around to that.
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So what can we do to make sure that
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after having done all the work of getting an audience to arrive,
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that they walk away and they understand it and they
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appreciate it rather than they feel
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alienated because they don't understand what's going on.
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The typical Works & Process experience,
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we do a lot of dance.
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So we'll have a choreographer that says,
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'This is the work that I'm choreographing. Here's the music,
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this is why I selected the music,
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and here's a story that's in my head that I'm trying to accomplish.' And
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literally for 10 to 15 minutes,
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you hear the choreographer talking to the dancers:
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'Put your hand here.' 'Why don't you lift your leg here?' 'That doesn't work for
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you. Let's try something else.' And you're watching this
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work being created and you realize what the intention of the
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artist is and you understand it and
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you walk away and you're like,
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I'm an immediate expert because I saw it
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firsthand. We often say the magic is in the process.
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We just have to let everybody in on that secret.
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That's right.
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Whereas the performing arts so often is you rehearse, rehearse, rehearse,
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rehearse,
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and you just perform it and it looks perfect and audiences don't understand how
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you got there. More and more,
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I've been thinking about how the process is so essential in a world that
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is surrounded by content.
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Content is at this point almost limitless.
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Oftentimes the content that we see is 'perfect.' Unfortunately oftentimes it's
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'perfect,' and that's in quotation marks,
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because of the AI that exists right now.
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And we're just searching for things that are authentically human
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and it's the process that is authentically human.
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I think what you're saying is so important,
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and the imperfection of a process is also the
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experience of learning.
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And the curiosity of how things come to be feels even
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more important for us to be nurturing in this moment where, as you say,
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that arts education component is not necessarily
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existing in the way that it should be, particularly in this country. I forget,
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maybe I was talking to Christopher about this at the end of the year,
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[about] the videos that dance companies have started to put out of
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process orientation, what the rehearsal room is really like.
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And I remember from years ago,
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I think it was a dance company in Denmark that did an open rehearsal where they
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had a heart rate monitor on their dancers that was shown on a screen next to the
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stage so that again, audiences can understand, yes,
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the beauty,
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the elegant perfection of a finished classical story ballet is a wonderful,
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gorgeous thing to witness...
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but how much richer is that experience when you know what's gone into
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the effort that's put on stage?
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And the example I often cite is one of my favorite musicals,
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A Chorus Line.
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Why I think we love A Chorus Line is you get to hear the stories of
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all of the members that are part of the chorus line.
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That's absolutely right.
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The work that you do at Works & Process I had so centered on New York and the
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Guggenheim and being very specific, but as you and I have been talking,
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I've been learning more about the artistic ecosystem that Works & Process has
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been building not just for audiences, but also for the artists themselves.
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Can you share a little bit about the broader work of Works &
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Process that those of us who associate it with the events that are happening at
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the Guggenheim might not be as aware of?
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Yes, thank you. So let's go beyond the tip of the iceberg.
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Yes.
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The Guggenheim is our most visible partner,
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and we are so grateful to have this partnership with one of the most iconic
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cultural institutions in the world and one of the most iconic buildings.
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The reality is that we can't access the Guggenheim all the time.
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So we have built an ecosystem of now
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18 residency partners in six states,
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and these residency partners provide 24/7 space
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to create and rehearse in. They provide housing on site,
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and what we bring to the table is living wage artist fees that we're
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very transparent about.
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We provide every artist that goes into residency $175 a day or
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$1,225 a week so that they can create and
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not be concerned about,
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'How am I going to pay the bills?' So these artists can create knowing that
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they're being paid, they have space, they have housing.
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It's uninterrupted creative process time,
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and we always ask the artists that we're working with,
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what do you need right now?
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It goes back to how do we take better care of artists?
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And so the artists will say,
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I need a studio with a wood floor or a Marley floor or with mirrors,
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or I need a stage,
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or I need a technical residency because I'm far enough in my creative process
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that I want to get lights on top of it.
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That's why we have this resident ecosystem now.
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It is really about aggregating the resources that we
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need to support creative process.
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I mean,
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the way that you speak so clearly about supporting artists doesn't
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mean that you are asking them to live in poverty to deliver on a product...
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You are seeing the artists for their entire being, their life as a human,
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their artistic experience, how they are seeing the world,
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and creating pathways for them to create with dignity.
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It is such a beautiful sense of purpose.
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Has it been difficult to engage with the field in this way
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being such a champion of the complete needs of the artist versus
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the focus on the end product on various stages?
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Yes.
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It's been very challenging because there's inertia that we need
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to overcome, right?
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Of course.
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And the inertia is that we have inherited an ecosystem that prioritizes
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product,
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yet we know that the definition of
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insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different
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results. And so [at] Works & Process,
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we're doing something different to have a thriving
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performing arts ecosystem where artists are taken care of,
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where audience members understand and appreciate the
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work that they see so that they invest in it.
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And we're all building community as this happens.
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It's moving it away from transactional spectating
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to participating.
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That's right. You've been vocal in saying that our ecosystem is broken
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and we need to really be approaching it with a bit of audacity.
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There's a lot of politeness in our field. Careful language, careful critique.
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If we strip that away,
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what do you think our sector needs to wake up to most urgently right now?
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Well, first off, we need to get rid of toxic optimism.
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Okay, say more on that.
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I really appreciate how some of the big traditional
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funders in the field have pivoted, right? And they're like,
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we are not funding this anymore. I'll point out the Mellon Foundation.
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It's very clear that they've moved away from funding institutions
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and funding artists directly. I admire that.
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And that's what we do as an organization is we think about,
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how do we take better care of artists and how do we fund the artists?
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Because the reality is that if these artists aren't
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working,
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then what happens to the institutions that have been built?
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So now the institutions that are
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existing without the traditional support of these foundations are like,
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what do we do?
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Yeah. It's fascinating to watch. From where you sit,
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how would you advise these organizations that aren't sure how to move forward
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right now?
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Well, it sounds like such a cliche, but it really is about,
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how do we work together? How do we collaborate?
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How do we look around to what's happening?
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We're very familiar with mutual aid,
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so let's take that example and apply it to the field
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and seriously have a conversation of how do we work together?
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How do we do away with exclusivity clauses? How do we share resources?
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What does true collaboration really look like that isn't about reinforcing
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institution-building, but thinking about how do we build the field together?
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I am so delighted to hear you say that rather than looking at,
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oh, there are too many mouths to feed in the artistic pot in a certain area --
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instead saying, we are all building a stronger cultural community.
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How can we do that together?
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What do I have in terms of space that I can offer you who might have a
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creative idea that needs a home that you don't have?
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And how can we start to pair together to build a better brand for our cities,
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for our states,
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for our country that really fuels creative collectivity in a way that
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doesn't exist everywhere yet?
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And I would also say we have inherited philanthropy that has prioritized
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brick and mortar, and how do we think about the bodies, the artists,
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that these buildings were created for? And that's why [at] Works & Process,
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we do not have any brick and mortar, and because of that,
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we are forced to think about how do we collaborate and how do we first off
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identify and then deploy and utilize the resources that already
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exist.
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And it's ultimately in service of artists in their creative process.
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But while doing that,
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it's also about connecting audiences and communities with artists.
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That is one of the ways of building collaboration moving forward.
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That's right. It's so well said.
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And I think also as we think about who is engaging with the art,
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one thing that Works & Process has been doing for a while now is presenting work
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that expands beyond the kind of traditional western canon proscenium.
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What has been prompting and inspiring you to move the organization that way?
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So in 2017,
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Works & Process had the opportunity to have a residency and a
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commission by Michelle Dorrance and Nicholas Van Young in the rotunda of the
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Guggenheim. And one of the dancers in the company, Ephrat Asherie,
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approached us and said, this is so incredible.
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It's a circular building, and so many dance forms come from the circle.
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Have you guys thought about supporting a club
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dance piece with street and social dance?
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Because I'm working on a project about New York City club culture
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and how when you go to a nightclub and you dance,
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you have a tendency to dance in a circle which is
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completely opposite from what normally happens in
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concert dance. Work is created for a stage. And we said,
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Ephrat, you're absolutely right,
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and we're going to commission this piece. We're going to support it.
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And that was the beginning of this journey. Through Ephrat,
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we met another dance maker named Omari Wiles who comes from
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the ballroom community,
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and we started working with ball culture through Omari. And then
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we also met a dance maker by the name of Caleb Teicher.
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And Caleb, who was known as a tap dancer,
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was also working in Lindy Hop, a partnered social dance.
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And so we were really thinking about this circular building that we
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call home and the dance traditions that come from the circle and
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how that could be a way of helping people spectate,
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but then also participate because it's that social circle.
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Dance is where you participate. So you go to a birthday party, the music starts,
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you get up, you dance in a circle. You go to a wedding, the music starts,
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you get up, you dance in a circle.
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And at a time when we're facing isolation,
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how do we ameliorate that isolation?
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You get people to start to dance together.
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And increasingly,
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and I've been thinking about this over just the past few years,
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at a time when words are so fraught, nobody has ever said to me, 'Duke,
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when you dance,
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you dance like a liberal,' or 'You dance like a conservative.' We all just dance
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together.
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It's a conversation that we can have in an increasingly
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polarized time.
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I'm just going to take a minute to settle with that because that's a really
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beautiful notion, and we see that more and more, right?
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As folks are coming together,
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we know how important art is to the act of community.
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And whether that is for healing or for protest
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or for anywhere in between, dance, music,
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these are part of our long, long, long histories,
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no matter where in the world you are.
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So part of this conversation also is, how do we transcend the proscenium?
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Because if you're going to leave your house to see something,
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engage in something,
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is the proscenium the best way of doing that?
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Or are you actually looking for a real social
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experience?
26:00
Yeah, I mean, you're centering all of this on exactly the thing, which is:
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the performing arts are great at bringing people out of their apartments and
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together in one place to experience something.
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Bingo, because one of my favorite lyrics is from Cabaret. And it goes,
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'What good is sitting alone in your room?
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Come hear the music play?' And as we're experiencing this crisis of
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isolation,
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we all just have to get out of our rooms and come hear the music play or come
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out and dance.
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That's right. That's exactly right.
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I'm curious what you think of this emergence of these immersive
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experiences, some of which I think are very much immersive and engaging,
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and some of which are just using a very popular terminology right now.
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Because in a lot of ways,
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social dance and bringing that to people is the original immersive experience
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with art, right?
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It's the original idea of bringing together folks around an art form
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that they're used to seeing one way,
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but actually can be engaged with meaningfully.
27:01
Right? And the word I actually prefer to use is 'participate' because I think
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'immersive' has this notion of 'I'm engaging with technology.'.
27:09
Oh, interesting. Okay, okay.
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Whereas participating actually means that you have to get in there
27:16
and move, or you have to sing or you have to, in a partner dance,
27:21
hold somebody's hand and lead or follow.
27:27
As you were talking about the art forms that you wanted to make sure Works &
27:30
Process was uplifting, engaging in,
27:33
it's very notable how all of those things were tied to an
27:37
artist that you were engaging with meaningfully.
27:40
By the time we're on air, so to speak,
27:43
and with folks listening to us in their ears right now,
27:46
Works & Process will have just announced a new artist-in-residency
27:50
position embedded into the organization itself.
27:53
Can you talk a little bit about that position and what inspired that decision?
27:58
Yeah, we're super duper excited.
28:01
We've always been an organization that supports artists in their creative
28:04
process,
28:05
and we were very fortunate that 10 years ago we met
28:10
an artist by the name of Caleb Teicher.
28:12
Caleb's been with us over the past 10 years,
28:15
and as we were thinking about the position of an artist [or] curator in
28:20
residence,
28:21
we wanted to make sure that an artist is at the table
28:27
to help us make decisions on how we can support artists right
28:32
now. And Caleb is an artist that is performing,
28:36
is creating, is touring,
28:39
and we wanted to make sure that this artist is
28:44
coming with practical, real time,
28:47
real world knowledge that will then help us make better
28:52
decisions in resource deployment, artist support...
28:56
and Caleb will play a key role in helping us
29:00
curate our open call residency program and also to curate the programming that
29:05
we generally do.
29:06
But the important thing is an artist at the table helping us make
29:11
decisions.
29:13
I think it's incredible to be centering an artist in that way,
29:16
because as I even try to imagine the changes that can be made to
29:20
institutional decision making processes --
29:22
when an artist is actually engaged with that work,
29:26
the possibilities seem really extraordinary in how that can
29:30
also lend itself to inspiration to the staff and teams as they're imagining the
29:35
future of an organization,
29:36
even one as on the forefront of the future of the industry as
29:41
Works & Process.
29:42
Yeah.
29:42
If another arts organization asked you,
29:45
what's the first thing we should rethink if we wanted to better support artists,
29:50
what would you tell them?
29:51
Actually, it's very simple. It starts with a single question:
29:55
what do you need right now? From that question,
30:00
we've been able to respond. There was an artist that said,
30:05
what I need right now is health insurance.
30:08
And we called our insurance broker and we said,
30:13
this is the situation, can you help? And Nick, our insurance broker,
30:17
has been able to enroll countless artists onto Obamacare.
30:22
And the reality is many of the artists that we support are making
30:27
income thresholds that actually they're qualifying for
30:32
monthly premiums of $0 or $20 or $40.
30:36
It's just connecting these artists with the people that can help them.
30:42
And I think your impulse to lead with questions instead of prescribed answers is
30:46
always going to get an organization further.
30:49
Is there anything in particular that is bringing you hope in our field right
30:53
now?
30:55
I think a new generation that is
31:00
really thinking much more collaboratively,
31:04
that is more open to having conversations and
31:09
less about silos.
31:11
I couldn't agree more.
31:12
I think the next generation of leaders rising,
31:16
only beginning to emerge right now...
31:19
I share that hope with you that it is one of community building,
31:23
of collaboration, and of seeing how much stronger we can all be together.
31:28
Well,
31:29
we have come to my favorite little part of our conversation,
31:33
which is our quickfire culture section of the podcast.
31:36
So what's one piece of culture right now that you're currently obsessed with and
31:40
loving and that's bringing you joy?
31:42
I would say CATS: The Jellicle Ball. I'm super excited about it.
31:45
Yes. Speaking of ballroom.
31:48
Yes.
31:48
Really ushering that back in.
31:50
Yeah, because a Omari Wiles --
31:53
who is a longtime Works & Process artist supported with multiple
31:57
residencies -- Omari is one of the co-choreographers of CATS: The Jellicle Ball.
32:02
And what I'm excited about is, again,
32:05
this is a production that is transcending the proscenium.
32:09
It's a production that is thinking about both spectating
32:14
and participating.
32:16
It's a production that is providing a platform for a
32:20
tradition that has been under the radar for too long.
32:25
And with the casting decisions that have been recently announced,
32:29
this is a production that is really lifting trans creators,
32:34
trans performers.
32:35
So I'm super excited about CATS: The Jellicle Ball.
32:40
I can't wait for more people to experience Cats in this way that is both
32:45
expressive and joyful and strings together this music that is so loved
32:49
with an art form that makes complete sense in the new context that's been
32:54
created. Yeah, it's very exciting. If you could go back in time,
32:58
what's a live performance or event that you wish you had been present for?
33:03
Judy Garland at Carnegie Hall.
33:05
Signed. Sealed. Done. Check. No further questions.
33:08
What is one free resource in any field that you would suggest everyone checks
33:13
out or avails themselves of?
33:16
The New York Public Library for the Performing Arts.
33:18
A fabulous answer also. And then our last question.
33:22
If you could broadcast one message to executive directors,
33:26
leadership teams, staff,
33:27
and boards of thousands of arts organizations right now,
33:32
what would that message be today?
33:34
The magic is in the process. We just have to let everybody in on that secret.
33:40
Beautiful. Duke, I am so grateful for your time.
33:43
I think you have given all of us a lot to think about and consider how can we
33:47
continue centering the process and centering artists in our work. Thank you.
33:51
It's been wonderful to chat.
33:52
Thank you so much, Monica. It's such an honor to be here.
34:05
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye. If you enjoyed today's conversation,
34:09
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34:12
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34:17
And if you haven't already,
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click the subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts.
34:21
We've got some great episodes coming your way,
34:23
and I wouldn't want you to miss them. A huge thanks to our team behind the
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34:32
Jess Berube, and Rachel Purcell Fountain.
34:36
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34:55
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next on CI to Eye. I'm Monica Holt. Thanks for listening.