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Special Guest: Dan Werthman Pt 1 - Triggered to Transformed · The Church Renewal Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Matt.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Jeremy.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Today on the Church Renewal Podcast, we will have guest Dan Worthman.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Dan is an intentional interim pastor with Vital Church Ministries.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've had the privilege of knowing Dan for five and a half years, and the context of our relationship is both of us growing in our personal application of family systems theory to our own lives and our own growth as well as our work.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: So join us as we have a conversation with Dan Worthman.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Dan Worthman, welcome to uh the Church Renewal Podcast.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's really good to have you here.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: Great to be here.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: We've been doing a series of uh conversations with people who are leading either in the church renewal space.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, as you well know, Dave Miles kind of has a pretty nice platform there.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: But we also have gotten the chance to speak with uh Jack Shaitama, who's written extensively on family systems theory.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh one of the things that uh I'm really excited about for today is the fact that uh you work uh very deeply with uh with all the things that we've been talking about and very practically with churches specifically in transition.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, before we uh really go too much further, would you introduce yourself to us?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what's your backstory?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: How'd you get into uh pastoring, interim pastoring, transitional pastoring?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um what brought you to where you are today?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I um I am an intentional interim pastor with Vital Church Ministry.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm also a certified Christian conciliator with the Institute for Christian Conciliation.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: And my background is both in law and pastoral ministry.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I believe that in the big picture, God always intended for me to be a pastor, but uh as a young new believer uh new believer and in my immaturity, I was uh thinking, no, I wanted to be a lawyer.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so I went down that route, which was which was a good route, um, but went to law school, practice law for about a dozen years.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: I started out as an Air Force uh judge advocate general and did uh criminal litigation and then uh contract work for them.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: The years I practiced in civilian practice, I was doing civil litigation.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Along the way, got exposed to peacemaker ministries, uh, Ken Sandy's ministry at the time.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that's where I was initially trained in Christian conflict conciliation.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh attended seminary, got a seminary degree, went into the pastorate, pastored three different churches as a regular lead pastor, senior pastor.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then uh the Lord transitioned me at about age 52, 53 into what I do now, what I've done for the last 10 years, which is uh, and as an intentional interim pastor.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: So over the last 10 years, I have been an intentional interim pastor in five different churches.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: Just finished my fifth one, about to begin my sixth one.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: And in addition to that, I've served uh, I don't know how many churches as a conflict mediator, conciliator in some form or another.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Two follow-up questions to that.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um one, I love that you say intentional interim pastor, because uh it sure beats the unintentional interim pastor position that that one might find themselves in.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: What was it that prompted you to move from the from the full-time pastoring into an interim setting?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I the Lord gets all the credit because it was not like I knew exactly that that's what I should be doing.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: I was coming to an end of my third, you know, regular, normal pastorate, early 50s, just looked at the realities of most churches are are you know, frankly, looking to hire somebody in their 30s and 40s.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh wasn't even sure that I wanted to go invest, you know, move my family and and and and plant roots and start over in another congregation because I believe in long pastorate.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: So explored uh interim ministry and um uh went to the training first for interim pastor ministries.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: I know you had Tom on um uh the president of IPM uh a while back.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: He was he was the the one who trained me initially and uh thought I will I will give this a try.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it was really confirmed by the Lord in my first interim assignment that this this is uniquely suited to who I am, or the Lord has uniquely prepared me for this kind of ministry.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, from what from Mutt Matt has told me, you have done a lot of your own digging into family systems theory.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: What first, you know, what was your first exposure to FST?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: What drew you to it, and um what pushed that for you?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, I was in interim pastor ministries at the time, and I was at the IPM annual conference, and uh I attended a training.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: It was on conflict, but the speaker had a um a reading list, so he didn't even bring it up in his seminar, but he had a reading list that had some family systems, Bowen Family Systems works on there.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and uh I read a couple of those and it immediately resonated with me because uh I I had I had been concerned for some time about a pattern that I had seen throughout my ministry, really throughout my life, but particularly in my ministry, where um certain things would trigger me.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly things happen in the pastorate with different people where you know we can get easily triggered, and and how we respond in those situations really can make or break our pastoral ministry.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: And there's certainly elements in each of my pastorates where uh I can look back, I can see certain ways that I was I was triggered that that led to relational breakdown, made my ministry less effective.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I hadn't seen, I knew that these had happened, but I hadn't seen the pattern until I began to do some of the family systems reading.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that that began to bring it all together and really help me process that, really helped me understand how those triggers were formed in me, uh, how to how to address them now, how to recognize them.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: So um it just very much met a need that I was experiencing a weakness in my my ministry and my personal life.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: We haven't talked a lot about triggering in this season, but what you're talking about, it sounds to me, correct me if I'm wrong, you had your own undealt with anxieties that had nothing to do with the the church where you were serving, but were being you know, sort of pricked, punched, whatever by the sick by the circumstances of the situation, which uh drew out of you.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: This you know, the whole idea of triggering, I think most people are gonna understand at this point, but it drew out of you a response that that again, your reaction, your response was not based on what was actually going on there.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: It was based on something else in you, a different anxiety that you were carrying.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Am I understanding that right?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's a there's a saying that is used by by all family systems writers, it's process, not content.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the the content is is okay, what's what's going on?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: What's the particular issue?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: What are we talking about?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: What is somebody upset about?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's the content.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: The process is the anxiety behind it and the the reciprocal way that we deal with each other in our anxiety.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so what was happening is the content could be totally different in each of the three churches or even in different situations.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: But the the process, there was this pattern of process.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like what I'll just give you one brief example of this.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that uh that I've come to learn is uh that is triggering for me is when I'm made to feel shame.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that that goes all the way back to some uh some family of origin experiences.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: Don't blame you know anybody for that.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's a pattern of that that goes back even in my parents' lives, but uh was raised in a very shame-based uh environment.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so um, you know, some people in it in a church setting could get really angry or upset with me.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: I was totally fine with it.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: I could handle it calmly.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: Other people, though, if they said things that I heard through the lens of the shame, you know, that I had experienced growing up, would would bring on that anxiety, would, would trigger me, uh, and would make me react rather in in uh immature ways rather than respond thoughtfully uh and and deal with the situation in a mature way.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's a that's an example of the process that was happening um regardless of the content.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: So your your baptism into FST was first coming into contact with the theories and the practices, but your application was to start with your own work, doing your own family of origin work.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: Unpacking those things.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I the the the the the first author that I read, I've got actually all these books here with me, is it's a guy named uh Ron Richardson.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, creating a healthier church, family systems, leadership and congregational life, he also wrote, Becoming a healthier pastor.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: Both of those began to expose me.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: He's such a good writer about how this dynamic happens to us as pastors, how the processes that happen in church settings are where this is developed.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: I I just ate it up.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: I ate it up, and and from there I would begin to read what he had on his reading list and his bibliography.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: I turned he turned me on to Peter Steinke uh and Edwin Friedman.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: I've got all these with me.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, not not all of these, by the way, are believers.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: Ron Richardson is Peter Steinke, maybe.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, another one was very helpful, who I think is a woman of faith, is a woman named Roberta Gilbert, who is who's written uh a lot on this.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: And she even has this simple little book called The Eight Concepts of Bowen Theory.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: So that really gave me the bones of it.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: And uh from there, um I I wanted to learn all I could.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: It was it was just like filling such a need for understanding how I have been functioning and how how I I can grow in in more mature ways of functioning.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I did um I I have done some work through the Bowen Center.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: I have taken some online uh coursework for that, which has been helpful, but most of it's been self-study.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: You mentioned Jack Shaitama.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um Matt was the one who actually turned me on to Jack Shaitama.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: I love uh you know Jack Shaitama because he takes all this stuff and he makes it so easily digestible.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I know I know the book Matt tells everybody about is if you met my family, you'd understand.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know, great introduction to it.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: If I was gonna put one easy to read, easy to digest book on family systems in in any pastor's hand, it would be this one by Jack Shaitama, Anxious People, Anxious or Anxious Church, Anxious People.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I and and from there I've I've just found found more and more authors and podcasts.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, it's just an area that I continue to uh read and study and and grow in.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's and it has really shaped in in positive ways and changed uh my my pastoral ministry.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: What was that like for you going through and doing that work?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'll tell you my premise here.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: My premise is I think that most uh pastors haven't done a whole lot of family of origin work.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Most pastors therefore don't know the baggage that they're carrying and they don't know how it's impacting them.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're digging into your background while also working in a church as an interim, identifying your baggage, seeing how it's been bumped, how it's interacting with who you are as a person, and then starting to make changes, that requires a lot of openness that can be very uncomfortable in a leadership position.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: What was that like for you going through and doing that work?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, initially I fell into this the trap that most people knew to family systems fall into, at least from what I read, is that you become this big advocate of it and you want to tell everybody the principles of it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and uh I you know, my wife very graciously told me, you know, it's too much.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, cage stage, yeah.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: And uh too much.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and and so yes, there was there was kind of a humbling that happened that uh really embraced the idea that this is work you do within yourself.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: You do not apply these things to other people and try to get them to change.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's not what family systems is about.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: Other people may change over time as a result of the change they experience in you.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I've seen some of that in my marriage.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't talk about it unless I'm in a conversation like this.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: I don't talk about it with anybody.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: I have worked a lot with um for a period of time with a coach who helped me as I would go back and visit my parents who are still living, you know, to have some really intentional conversations to explore some of that family of origin stuff.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: But again, my my parents have no idea that I've been studying this.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that they they probably have been surprised by some of the conversations I've uh attempted to get them into and questions that I've asked.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's made me much more compassionate towards my parents.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm not fascinating.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let me run down that road just briefly for just a second.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm have a little theory of forgiveness that until you can believe that if you were grew up in the same family, had the same life circumstances, had the same formational circumstances that this person who has hurt you, uh that you would have done the same thing that they would have done.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Then until you can really believe that, it's almost impossible to forgive them.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're still in the seat of judgment.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of saying we're too humans, we're too sinners.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and that's why we need Jesus, and that's the most important thing.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: You said it helped you be more compassionate towards your parents.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's really important because uh relationships break down when judgment is the biggest thing that's present.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Both of my parents came from abusive families.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'll see my mother next week.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just knowing the kind of family she grew up in helped me sort of uh understand why she was the way that she was and that she wasn't a uniquely horrible sinner.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: She was just the kind of sinner that would come out of a family like that.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and when you choose to exercise that kind of uh reflection, there's great possibility.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I so could you talk a little bit about how that's helped you become um compassionate?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that it's very well said what you just said there, Matt.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, part of family systems is uh utilizing even a gram.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: So looking at uh who our parents, you know, raised our parents, looking back several generations looking for patterns, looking for circumstances that shaped them to understand, you know, how they functioned in as as they raised me did not happen in a vacuum.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they they were very much shaped by, you know, I won't go into any detail here, but by some very significant experiences, you know, that they had growing up.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: And their parents in turn were shaped by very significant experiences.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: So what I love about family systems is it takes away the need to blame, to find, you know, the reason I'm struggling with XYZ now is because this is what my my mom or my father uh you know did growing up.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: No, in fact, they may have had ways that they were functioning that did contribute to uh some of what I struggle with.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: But family system says, but you had choice in how you reacted to that.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's it's looking at what was the reciprocal relationship.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if they did this, how did I choose to react?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: Even looking, you know, at my siblings.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: My siblings grew up in the same home and responded very differently, and their lives have gone very differently.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh so it's understanding how I reacted to that.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that combination of not blaming, of seeking to understand what they experienced, of looking at my own part, my own reactions, the reciprocity of how we all dealt with anxiety as it was stirred up in the family, to really understand that everybody in their reactions, they're they're attempting to try to get more comfortable.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they're trying to find a place of comforting their anxiety.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: And often that's not in productive ways, but but that's what it's about.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: No one no one is intending to do something evil or or harmful.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then even as I've gone back with the help of a coach, as I've gone back and pursued some very intentional conversations, asking them about their childhood, that's given me a lot of compassion.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, hearing hearing some things, maybe with different ears than I heard growing up and learning some new things, even about their experiences growing up in their families of origin and their experience in their their uh their early marriage years that that I didn't I wasn't fully aware of.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um Dan, we've known each other for about five and a half years.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know from our personal relationship that that last regular pastorate that you had was a was a was a bumpy one.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you look back on that differently now than you did maybe when you first started transitional pastoring?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see things now about that situation that maybe weren't as apparent at the moment?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that that last pastorate, I was there just about four years.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: I was, you know, what sometimes is called an unintentional interim.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'd come in after the traumatic leaving of the prior lead pastor.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: The church should have had an interim, help them work through that.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: They didn't.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, there were some unique things going on in the church that anybody coming in as the next pastor would have experienced.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: But then you bring me in with some of at that time unrecognized patterns in my life and my proclivities to, again, as Ken Sandy says, being emotionally hijacked or triggered, particularly by shame.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I encountered some things that that um certainly again would have impacted any pastor coming in there.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: There, there were some legitimate things about that church.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: They should have gone through some kind of transitional interim process, but the way I reacted uh made them worse, certainly.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: I do think the decision to leave was the right decision.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: It did lead to them going through more of an intentional interim.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're in a better place today.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I I look back with some regret for ways that I that I immaturely handled myself.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I wished I knew then what I have the Lord has taught me in many ways through many sources, but especially through family systems.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: I wish I knew that back then.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you've enjoyed this conversation so far, there's a lot more next week.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: We had to split this interview over two weeks out of respect for your time.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Please join us next Thursday and we'll pick it up right here.
• 22:29
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