Latest / Parsing the Truth: One Byte at a Time / Three Pillars of Expert Testimony: Preparation, Presence, & Education

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Three Pillars of Expert Testimony: Preparation, Presence, & Education · Parsing the Truth: One Byte at a Time

0:01
Join former FBI Senior Forensic Examiners Becky Passmore and
0:05
Stacey Eldridge as they dig into the world of digital forensics
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one bite at a time. Now leading their own consulting
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firms and educating the next generation of cyber sleuths,
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these bad ass babes of digital forensics bring sharp insight,
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real world case experience and a dose of humor to the bits and
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bites that filled today's investigations.
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From deep dives into business e-mail compromise and ransomware
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attacks, Becky's specialty to cracking the complexities of
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iPhone forensics, Stacy's obsession, this podcast delivers
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insider knowledge for professionals, students, and
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true crime techies alike. If you've ever wondered what
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really happens when the digital trail is all that's left, TuneIn
0:42
and start parsing the truth. Welcome back to Parsing the
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Truth One Bite at a Time, where we uncovered the people, the
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process, and the purpose behind digital forensics.
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I'm your host, Stacey Eldridge and as always, I have my Co host
1:03
Becky Passmore with me today. And we are diving into something
1:07
every examiner needs to be prepared for testifying in
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court. Now this is not a new topic on
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this podcast, but it deserves a lot of attention.
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So we're back at it now. It's one thing to analyze data,
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but it's a whole different thing to explain that analysis
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underoath clearly, confidently, and credibly.
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That's. Right and that's where
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preparation, presence, and education really comes into play
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3 pillars define not just how we testify, but how we carry
1:40
ourselves every single day as digital forensic professionals.
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Preparation is about doing the work before the work,
1:47
understanding your evidence, validating your methods, and
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anticipating how your findings will hold up under scrutiny.
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Presence is about that composure, how we show up in the
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courtroom, in front of a class, or even in an incident response
2:03
meeting. It's the quiet confidence that
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tells others we know our craft and respect the process.
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And education is what keeps it all moving forward.
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It's continuous learning, not just about tools or technology,
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but communication, ethics and leadership.
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Joining. Joining us today is someone who
2:23
truly embodies those 3 pillars, not just in theory, but through
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decades of hands on experience and service.
2:31
Laura Heldwine is a powerhouse in the world of technology and
2:35
education. She is retired from the FBI
2:38
after an incredible 39 years and eight months of service, where
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she worked as an information technology system admin and a
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digital forensic examiner, a mobile communications operator
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in the Technical Response Unit, and an educator.
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So it seems like she's done it all when it comes to technology
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and the FBI. But throughout her career, Laura
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has testified in federal, state, and local cases, bringing
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clarity of the courtroom and credibility to the field.
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She's also trained countless investigators on how to navigate
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communication. Yeah, absolutely.
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And so welcome, Laura, we're we're glad to have you here and
3:19
parsing the truth. And what's interesting is Laura
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brings that poise and that confidence that helps people
3:27
understand when they need to communicate and navigate the
3:33
foundations of whatever the communication that they're
3:37
working on. So Laura, we'd like for you to
3:40
introduce our yourself and talk about how you know your long
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honorable 39 year plus career with FBI.
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Thank you. I'm really excited to be here.
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And, you know, just as you all said, my name is Laura Haldwein
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and I have that huge. I like that you put the eight
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months on there as well, Stacey. But yeah, it's it's a long time.
4:01
And, you know, I got lucky and I've been fortunate enough to.
4:04
I started as entry level 1986. You do the math.
4:08
I usually tell people I was 12 when I started, right?
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But Betsy and I were. 5 When we joined the FBI, right, That's
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right. So.
4:15
Absolutely. And I started when I started,
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you know, I first started as a file clerk, then I moved into
4:23
like a logistics supply technician and that's where I
4:25
was just learning the FBI and how to navigate the FBI as an
4:28
organization, you know, mission driven and what it really is all
4:31
about. And then I moved into
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technology. So I became a computer
4:35
specialist, which that's what we were called back in the day, and
4:38
then moved into information technology specialist as well.
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And then I was pulled in to do this thing called CART in the
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FBI, which stands for the Computer Analysis Response Team
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with both. Both of you have been on.
4:51
Yeah. And that really was the kind of
4:52
grassroots and cutting edge of that digital forensics
4:55
discipline in the FBI. So I was pulled in because I did
4:59
computers on the day-to-day operations in the Buffalo field
5:02
office. So they're like, hey, you know.
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Computers do you remember what year ish you you got?
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But. 94 OK. OK, so.
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Yeah. 9495 Yep. Were they like?
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Do you like computers a whole bunch?
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Yeah. Do you want to do cart now?
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Yeah, I. Don't even know if they asked if
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you liked it, they just said, hey, you do computers, you're
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one of those and, and would say you're kind of one of those
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nerds. Hey, can you come and help us?
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We have a search warrant to conduct and we think we're going
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to have a computer and that, you know, that's back in the day
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when it was just ACPU and a monitor, keyboard and mouse and
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you were seizing it and, and, you know, bagging and tagging
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it. So we were we're kind of
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building that, that new discipline, building it as we
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went, you know, writing those. SO PS kind of writing the
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playbook as we went along, you know, so we are figuring out how
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to handle digital evidence, preserve that data integrity and
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support investigations. So that really kind of was what
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CART started and then we kind of all made those contributions
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early on and, and then obviously when we were all part of it, you
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know, later in the mid 2000s, two thousands and then on to
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what it is now. So then I then I transitioned
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more into technical instructional design,
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supervising leadership roles, things like that, where I was
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running national programs like CART training for digital
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friends, examiners as well as mobile communicators.
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And now that I've retired in my older age and I've transitioned
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into higher education, working along with Becky and I love it.
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So I really focus on preparing the next generation working kind
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of from those lessons learned as I was coming up through the
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ranks, if you will. So kind of looking and seeing
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what the challenges are for the students now.
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I mean, we have, you know, look at cloud security, AI and, and,
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and all those different challenges and just critical
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infrastructure and really how that's really formed, developed
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and grown. So I get super excited because I
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really feel like that's a super rewarding as both of you, I know
6:58
are in the academics really to sometimes you feel like, gosh,
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did I meet reach anyone today? And then it always comes back
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around, right? Like it always comes where a
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student will say, Hey, I was successful here or Hey, you
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really helped me make sense of that.
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So that's really where I'm at today and it's and it's really,
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it's exciting and rewarding. That's awesome, Laura.
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So I have so many questions for you, but I'm going to let us go
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through this conversation and then and maybe I'll pepper you
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with any unanswered questions that are leftover at the end if
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we don't get through the natural flow.
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But let's talk about these three pillars we identified earlier.
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So the first pillar we're going to talk about is preparation.
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And we use it all the time. We got to prepare, prepare,
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prepare, prepare. But and digital forensics is so
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much more than just reviewing that report before you step into
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the courtroom. It's about discipline and how
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we're building credibility long before we ever take the stand.
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And it starts in the lab, right? Where we're doing our
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documentation, we're validating tools, we're using validated
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tools, We know how they work. And most of all, we are using
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repeatable processes all along the way.
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And then it continues as we write stuff down.
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We're writing it in our notes, or maybe we're typing it up in
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our notes and typing it up in our reports.
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And if we make an assumption or we jump to a conclusion, we're
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actually validating that before we put it in our, you know, in
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our notes or in a report. And then also, we're going to
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anticipate how the opposing side might challenge our findings.
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We just don't be like, this is my assumption and leave it at
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that. We're going to do some legwork
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to suss it out. Now, Laura, with nearly 4
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decades in the FBI, what do you think true preparation really
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looks like for a forensic examiner who's getting ready to
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go into that court room and testify?
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Yeah, that's a great question. Preparation begins way before
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you get that subpoena. When you even have an inkling
9:02
you kind of already know talking to investigators that you're
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working on the case with, you'll be prepared.
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You get received the subpoena, but you as a forensic examiner,
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you need to know your case inside and out.
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And I know that sounds kind of canned or almost just kind of
9:18
corny in a way. But that just doesn't mean like
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what you found those forensic artifacts super important,
9:25
obviously, but how you found them just as you said, those
9:28
processes that you followed. Not only that, you need to know
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exactly whatever those findings are, what to what things, what
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applications, where did they come from?
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How did you find them? How did you validate them?
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Did you did you validate your tools?
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Do you understand every hash value that that that was created
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and are you anticipating, I like that you said that Stacey,
9:51
anticipating what cross examination questions you may
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get and really anticipating where you may get hit with some
9:58
of those harder questions. So you really need to be able to
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walk that jury step by step through your process.
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And if you can't do that, you're not ready.
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Right. And I know like I spend a lot of
10:08
time preparing and doing that, and I feel like I'm ready for
10:12
court when I almost don't need my notes at all to get through
10:18
it. I think we should be able to
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talk freely, like on the stand as we're explaining stuff.
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But I think sometimes we get so prepared that we forget that our
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notes are there and that maybe we should look at them,
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especially when those questions are coming from the other side.
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I agree 100%, yeah. And, and Laura had a lot of
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experience in this when she supervised, she was supervisor
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under the court program and LED a lot, well, the majority of the
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new courts that we that we did with the digital forensic
10:54
examiner. So I love that.
10:56
It's really like being the techie scientist and the
11:00
storyteller. And, and you know, I can
11:02
remember when I had to testify one time, I was extremely
11:06
nervous. And that's normal to be nervous
11:09
that the AUSA pulled me to the side, the assistant US attorney
11:13
pulled me to the side. And he said, you know more about
11:15
that case and what you're about to talk about.
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I need you to go in there and tell it like a story.
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And I learned then it was you were telling a story.
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So two rule, two of those roles that have to coexist for
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testimony to really land and be understood by those jurors.
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So you need that precision of a scientist and every fact
11:38
verified, every conclusion supported by evidence.
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I told that to my students on Tuesday.
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You can't just walk in there and be like, I know it's like this
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and you have to. Please don't say the tool said
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yes. And I'm like, the tool speaks
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now. Wow.
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Yeah, that's my joke. It's a great point.
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Exactly. Yeah.
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But you also need that clarity and a flow of of telling a
12:02
story. You know, you can't be like a
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robot and just answer the questions.
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You have to communicate and you have to be very clear with your
12:09
community. So it's not just enough to say
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the artifact was found. You have to connect the dots and
12:16
that's where it comes from, why it matters, and how it fits into
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the larger narrative of the case.
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And that that's what turns raw data into understanding.
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You said a great point was communicating.
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You know, we can say every variation of that word,
12:30
Communication, communicating, communication.
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You know any different form of that?
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You know, it's not just about reviewing the evidence, but it's
12:39
about understanding with the people that you're going to be
12:43
working with in the courtroom because it is a team effort as
12:47
well. And you have to make sure that
12:48
you and your the prosecutor, the team is speaking the same
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language and, you know, understands each other because
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you have to help the jury and the judges be able to understand
13:01
together. You all have to be on the same
13:03
page. Before every testimony.
13:05
I always met with the prosecutor head of Time Federal was a
13:09
little more how do you say structured and you know they
13:13
were very I don't know what the word I'm looking for very
13:15
structure and very militant about it.
13:17
I was gonna some of my state. But yeah.
13:19
OK, that's a good word. Some of the state and locals
13:21
weren't quite as you know, you'd meet him like half an hour
13:23
before. You're like, Oh my gosh, I need
13:24
a little more. What are you gonna?
13:25
I just gotta meet you. Yes.
13:27
What are you gonna ask me? So yeah, definitely keeping that
13:30
in mind. But this is just just just to
13:32
align yourself, you know, get that clear communication and
13:36
align your strategy not to change anything.
13:38
You're not changing what was found, right?
13:40
You as a friends examiner aren't changing what you found,
13:43
changing any findings at all, but just to make sure you're
13:46
both speaking that same language like I mentioned earlier and
13:49
that you both understand and you're on the same page.
13:51
All right, So we need. To know and Speaking of like
13:54
being on the same page, it's kind of like you need to know
13:57
what answer the attorney is looking for because if you're
14:01
kind of off, they'll ask you something.
14:04
You'll start talking about X, but they wanted you to talk
14:06
about and then they're confused and then they start asking you
14:10
different questions and then you become confused.
14:13
And then it becomes a game of like 20 questions on the stand
14:16
and everybody's lost and confused and then you look
14:20
silly. And so that's kind of why the
14:22
preparation is key. And especially if it's
14:25
complicated because we don't want them to have a incorrect
14:30
assumption, even though like they've read our reports
14:33
theoretically before they meet with us and things like that.
14:35
It's just complicated. It's like, where are you wanting
14:39
to go with this line of questioning?
14:41
What answer are you trying to get to?
14:43
What facts do you want to bring out?
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And that's why preparation is important and time consuming,
14:49
yeah. That's huge that you say that
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because we live in a world of as examiners, right?
14:55
And with our peers, we live in these, this technical realm with
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all these acronyms and tool outputs.
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You know, this means that, you know, it's kind of like jurors,
15:05
not jurors. They don't live in that same
15:07
technical acronymy technical world of, you know, complex
15:12
words or things like you're like, what does that mean?
15:15
So it's our job to help them to understand that and to not, you
15:18
know, going to your point, Stacey, where you said we can
15:21
make each other kind of look foolish if we aren't getting to
15:24
the point because there are going to be, you know, you're
15:27
going to be questioned the way you answer those questions.
15:30
And the piece that the attorney wants you to get to the
15:32
prosecutor is really important because you don't want to
15:35
confuse it. You you don't want to have to be
15:37
asked the same question like 15 different ways because like,
15:40
wait, does this person, this examiner not understand that?
15:43
And then it just adds to confusion to the jury.
15:45
And we're there to alleviate the confusion and to clearly explain
15:49
as a layperson into what when we're underoath, right, when
15:52
we're really nervous and the stakes are high, right?
15:55
I mean, what do? We're there to help clarify and
15:59
to make understanding easier and faster for the jury to get to.
16:02
That's why we rehearse it. It's all about rehearsing
16:05
because sometimes you can work your nerves out ahead of time as
16:07
well, and then that helps you with that clarity on the stand.
16:11
Yeah. I love what you said and and I
16:13
just, I just forgot it. What did you say?
16:15
Oh my gosh, I love something you said, Laura.
16:18
I like it all, I love it all. Just say you love it all.
16:20
I I love it all. I love everything you just said,
16:22
Laura, but let's move on to the second pillar now presents
16:26
because this one is so much more about just showing up and
16:31
sitting on the stand. It's the art of how you carry
16:33
yourself, from what you wear to what you say, your tone and your
16:39
timing. And you can have everything
16:42
perfectly documented, your analysis be bulletproof.
16:46
But if your delivery falters, the message can get lost in
16:51
translation. Well, I think I remember what
16:53
you said. It was like, we're there to
16:55
clarify things, we're there to clear it up.
16:58
So if we're confusing people when we're talking, we're not
17:01
doing our job right. Because if they learn nothing
17:05
from what we've said, it's like, were we even in the room
17:08
talking? Right.
17:09
Right. Right.
17:10
So presence, it's about connection.
17:13
It's how the jurors decide whether to trust you and what
17:17
you're saying. And it's also how attorneys read
17:20
your confidence and how you show respect for the process.
17:24
The way you walk into the courtroom, the way you greet
17:27
attorneys. And, and it can be even before
17:29
you get into the courtroom. Really.
17:31
Oh, no. And even if you pour water on
17:34
the witness stand and say something about your
17:36
professionalism before you open your mouth, we have to bring
17:40
that in there because I could not pour water the first time I
17:43
testified. So, you know, that was like
17:46
being calm under pressure. Why it's shaken?
17:50
Picture that would not pour water are.
17:53
You pour thing. I I still have flashbacks about
17:56
it, clearly. Yeah, it's bottles of water for
17:59
me or nothing on the witness stand from now on.
18:02
But anyways, it doesn't stop on the stand either.
18:04
It's in your emails before and after the courtroom.
18:09
It's in your reports. Those will get shared to the
18:13
jury most likely. And every interaction leading up
18:16
to that moment in the stand, the truth might be in your data, but
18:20
that credibility lives in your presence.
18:22
So, Laura question, how would you cultivate the composure and
18:27
confidence that you need when all eyes are on you?
18:31
And it can be even like eyeballs watching you on TV these days.
18:37
Great question. I've always come from the school
18:39
of people will tell you things like to inspire you and give you
18:42
information and provide you guidance, but sometimes they
18:45
don't tell you the how, how to get there right.
18:48
Be confident. How do you do that, you know,
18:50
have presence. How do you do that?
18:52
Well, some of it's just from actually doing it.
18:55
And Becky had brought up that we had participated in many, many
18:58
moot courts, whether it was our own certification as well as you
19:01
did, Stacey, going through your, our own digital forensic
19:04
examiner certification. But also in the training realm,
19:07
we went through multiple, multiple moot courts and
19:10
presence is huge. Every attorney will tell you
19:13
that as well as any forensic examiner.
19:16
It's from the moment you walk in that courtroom.
19:18
I always say you're being sized up, but I think you're being
19:20
evaluated. Yeah, probably.
19:23
Excuse me, a better word, but it's before you even open your
19:27
mouth. Just as you said earlier,
19:28
Stacey, when you walk into that courtroom, maybe as you're
19:31
walking to the courtroom and then when you get into the
19:33
courtroom, we are all human and people notice how you carry
19:37
yourself. They notice what you're wearing.
19:39
They notice how you interact with other folks.
19:42
They also notice how you react to opposing counsel.
19:45
I know a lot of times in moot court, a lot of times posture
19:50
and body language for a lot of our forensic examiner trainees
19:54
changed a bit when they were being crossed by the defense
19:59
again. It's moot court, so it's
20:02
practice, it's training, but that's the best way to put
20:05
people under pressure and make them feel a little nervous.
20:07
And Becky may have made a few people cry, but I won't mention
20:09
that here right now. But your tone of your voice,
20:13
your posture, the volume, if you appear defensive, if you appear
20:17
impatient or dismissive, that really that energy colors
20:21
everything from your report to how whatever you say after that,
20:26
it builds to that credibility and your confidence, it really
20:31
does lend it to that. So confidence absolutely
20:33
matters. But you never wanna cross that
20:35
line, right? Too much confidence can almost
20:37
mean the other C word by a little cocky or maybe arrogant,
20:41
right? Or dismissive.
20:43
We all know that person. You know, you don't have to let
20:46
people know you're like the smartest person in the room.
20:48
Yeah, you're there as an expert. Totally get it.
20:50
And that's your job. You're there as an expert.
20:52
But as you said earlier, Stacey, your job is to make sure people
20:56
that you're clear and that they under, you know, understand that
20:59
they you take them to that level and you walk them through so
21:01
they do understand. So, you know, you're not there
21:03
to argue. That's the attorney's job,
21:06
right? You're there to help shine a
21:08
light on the truth. I know.
21:09
And truth is huge. And something I always try to
21:11
remember over the years of testimony is that you don't
21:14
dominate as an expert. You're not there to say I, you
21:17
know, let people know, hey, I am the smartest person in the room,
21:20
but you're there to steady and balance it, right?
21:22
When you look at the jury, right?
21:24
We were always taught to let the attorney ask you the question,
21:27
then turn and give that eye contact to the jury.
21:29
That's so important to engage because you're checking for
21:33
understanding. And then you're also allowing
21:35
them to give you that confused face like, yes, wait a minute.
21:38
And then you cleaning it up, right?
21:39
Or saying, you know, maybe talking clear or explaining or
21:43
using an analogy or something like that.
21:45
So bringing that clarity and composure, it says that I'm here
21:47
to help you understand, and that's huge.
21:50
Yeah, for sure. And and and you're so right.
21:53
It's about credibility and really not theatrics.
21:57
I mean, I can think of a few. Courts good mentions.
22:01
That's a good one. A few court sessions where I
22:05
felt like it was theatrics, but it's really not.
22:09
It's about credibility. You're not there to perform or
22:12
you're not there to, you know, be the performer in the room.
22:18
You're there to clarify, like what you were talking about.
22:20
Both of you have brought it up there to clarify.
22:24
Every gesture, every word, even the pauses between your answers
22:28
sends a message about your confidence and integrity.
22:31
And it goes back to your hand motions we were just talking
22:34
about before we started this podcast and talking with our
22:38
hands. When I get nervous, I will move
22:41
my ring on my ring finger back and forth, back and forth, back
22:44
and forth. And an attorney told me one time
22:47
she said, whatever you do, don't ever wear that a ring on that
22:50
finger in this courtroom again. And I was like, yes, ma'am.
22:53
And she said, your distractions from moving that ring, I could
22:58
not take my eyes off of it. So again, it goes back to every
23:03
gesture, every word and everything that you're doing.
23:06
So credibility is built on that consistency.
23:09
But what would happen if you went in without that ring?
23:13
Do you think you would reach for it and then like freak out
23:16
because it wasn't there? Well, I either that or I would
23:19
sit here and do this right still, I would still do the
23:21
motion. I feel like I would still do the
23:23
motion, I just wouldn't have the ring to play with.
23:25
Maybe the better thing is to practice and be conscious of
23:30
that. And right pre heard about.
23:32
What what to do with your? Hands hold your hands down here
23:37
like this and don't move right. And you know, then we, we build
23:41
that credibility on consistency, the same study of professional
23:45
some from the lab bench that we're we've done all the work on
23:52
to the witness stand. It's about showing respect for
23:55
the process and letting the evidence speak through you, not
23:59
over you. And when jurors or judges see
24:02
that the calm confidence, that quiet command of your findings,
24:07
they believe not just the data, but they believe you.
24:09
I really feel a lot of times it's best just to be quiet and
24:15
let people ask questions and you show your confidence through
24:19
your answers and people truly believe you.
24:22
Yeah, again, confidence, credibility, all those things
24:26
that really lend to it. So let's talk about like, maybe
24:29
something a little more uncomfortable.
24:31
What about when you don't know the answer?
24:34
How do you care yourself then? How do you help to support or
24:40
let your credibility show there is tremendous strength and just
24:45
pure honesty and it you know, admitting you don't recall
24:47
something. I mean what if you had like
24:49
A304050 page technical report and you are being?
24:53
Asked. That's where I'm at right now.
24:55
I'm. On like page. 36. 36 of right
24:58
for one case, right for one case for one case.
25:02
And are you expected to memorize everything that you wrote in
25:05
that? Absolutely not.
25:07
Sometimes if you are asked a question on a small detail, very
25:11
specific detail, it is OK to say you don't recall, right?
25:15
So if it or if it falls outside of your scope, it doesn't make
25:18
you look unqualified. It really does.
25:20
It makes you look credible because you're really letting
25:23
that honesty show through. So the courtroom's full of
25:25
people who can spot that overconfidence and when jealousy
25:29
who someone's trying to guess or act like they know the answer
25:32
and I'm using air quotes instead of saying, hey, I don't recall
25:35
those jurors and that judge, they can all spot that, that and
25:38
that really lends to your credibility or can take away
25:42
from your credibility. So you don't know the answer,
25:43
just. Your body.
25:44
Language absolutely used to be ticked, did you right?
25:47
Absolutely. Yep, exactly.
25:49
The nerves come up because you're trying to suppress the
25:53
lack of honesty, right? Right, right.
25:56
Well, the other thing I was going to say is let's talk about
25:58
the magic of saying the words, at least to your attorney.
26:01
I do not recall. And then they will say, well, is
26:05
there something that will help you refresh your memory?
26:07
And then you'll say, why yes, my case notes.
26:10
And then, you know, you go through the whole rigmarole of
26:12
getting permission to look at your case notes.
26:15
And I've noticed lately in state court when I've been watching
26:18
the the witness just asked like right away, they're just like,
26:21
may I look at my case notes? So I guess that's a thing now
26:24
too. So kind of check suss it out
26:26
before you go in and be like, do we need to play this game of of,
26:30
you know, saying I don't recall, will that refresh your memory?
26:33
Or can you just say, may I refer to my case notes?
26:36
And I've even had twice they've let me bring my tablet into the
26:40
courtroom. I didn't have to print my notes
26:42
so that. Was fantastic.
26:44
Nice, I. Know, I know.
26:45
And that was federal and state. Wow, that is good.
26:50
And that that goes to that whole preparation.
26:53
You're saying earlier, Stacy, we're all getting on the same
26:55
page, right. We're all getting on the same
26:57
page. So if there is a time where you
26:59
can't recall, you don't recall something and you want to ask to
27:02
use it, it is good to kind of talk that through with the
27:05
prosecutor to say if I is it OK to ask to refer to my notes or
27:10
what would be the appropriate way to ask to see that?
27:12
You know, and then you're on the same page and then you don't
27:15
look unqualified or, you know, you look like a credible human
27:19
being who's being honest and you know, and that blends to your
27:22
character, you know, sitting on that because they want to trust
27:25
you, right? The jury wants to be able to
27:27
trust anyone who takes that stand and that that's really
27:30
because they have to trust you before they're going to listen
27:33
to anything that you found and listen to your process.
27:36
You know, you're there to inform people not to impress.
27:39
I love it. It's the other I word inform,
27:41
you know, not impress. They're they're not looking, as
27:44
you said earlier, Becky, that theatrics.
27:46
They're really just looking truly to understand, you know,
27:49
and you're authentic. Authenticity goes a long way.
27:52
People may not remember. Do you remember that quote from
27:54
Maya Angelou? Give me one second.
27:56
I'm gonna read it from my paper, if that's okay.
27:59
Yeah, it says. I've learned that people will
28:01
forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but
28:06
people will never forget how you made them feel.
28:09
And I know that sounds a little like kind of hokey, but I think
28:13
it translates into testimony as well.
28:16
People, I mean, there is emotion in that, right?
28:18
So people will remember how you made them feel.
28:20
They may not remember every technical detail that you spoke
28:23
and, you know, on the stand and some of the technical jargon you
28:25
may have had to use, but they're going to remember how you made
28:27
them feel about the testimony. So whether they trusted you or
28:31
whether they believed that you were being fair and accuracy and
28:36
whether your tone match the integrity of your work.
28:38
You could have the nicest well written report and you could
28:41
just fall apart on the stand or not have that good credible
28:45
presence with you when you are testifying.
28:48
So your demeanor at that is truly an extension of your
28:51
professionalism. And I think that professionalism
28:53
is huge. It's not just your reports, your
28:55
findings in that you know your CV, but it's also how you carry
28:59
yourself and and how you present yourself on the stand.
29:03
Yeah, and it goes beyond the courtroom.
29:05
Your presence is going to show up everywhere.
29:08
And we've mentioned the reports, but it's going to show up in
29:10
your tone, in your reports, the professional, in your emails,
29:13
all that stuff that's getting sent over in Discovery, the way
29:16
you prepare for depositions. Because, you know, it might not
29:19
just be showing up for one day. You might have to go to the
29:22
depositions first and then go to the trial.
29:24
And so, you know, the attorneys might get two shots at you
29:27
talking about whatever you've done.
29:30
And every interaction can become a link in that credibility
29:35
chain. And we've said it before, the
29:37
attorneys will attack you any which way they can.
29:41
If they can't get you on the technical stuff, on the facts,
29:44
they're going to come after you. And so say you were like a jerk.
29:49
I'm really pompous when you were going through the depositions.
29:53
You know, they might come after you real hard when it's time to
29:56
come to the to the trial. So that's why we're all going to
29:59
be be respectful when we're doing these professional
30:03
interactions. And so that's why we're being
30:06
professional all the time. When we respond to questions,
30:09
when we have to do follow up, we got to be organized with all of
30:12
our information because especially when you're coming
30:15
from the prosecution side, that goes over to discovery.
30:18
And I certainly on the defense side now make comments at least
30:21
to myself about like, there's like nothing in these notes that
30:25
the reports are empty, stuff like that.
30:27
So then we're making judgments and assumptions before we even
30:31
go into the courtroom about how good the work was done, before
30:36
we even get into the trial. And so if you're just
30:39
professional and detailed the whole way across the board,
30:41
you're going to set the tone for every interaction that is
30:45
happening in this case. I like how you're saying it has
30:47
to carry through because I feel like it's a needle and a thread
30:51
and it and you want to make sure you follow through and stitch it
30:53
all the way through. You know, cuz in today's world,
30:56
everything you write or say could end up on that big
31:00
courtroom screen, right? Right this.
31:02
Becky, how many? Yeah, right.
31:04
Becky, how many times did an attorney pull up possibly a
31:08
trainees LinkedIn page or social media page and then project it
31:13
and kind of go at them like you said earlier, Stacey goes at
31:16
them, you know, trying to chip away, whether at their
31:18
credibility or just, you know, they're then we'll knock them
31:22
off and then makes their demeanor be a little bit
31:25
different in the courtroom. And you have to make sure that
31:29
you know everything, like you said, from your lab notes to
31:32
your reports, from emails, communication, your
31:35
communication logs. You know, once it's in writing,
31:37
it's part of a record. So you have to make sure that
31:39
you're consistent, you're consistently professional
31:41
throughout all that. That's why it's not anything
31:44
that you should be turning on and off.
31:46
You know, you are a professional person throughout everything
31:49
that you do in work. You know, even if it is
31:51
something that it's just your process that you do, you always
31:55
follow this certain process. You know, you have the same tone
31:58
and very being very fair and accurate in all of your emails
32:04
and any of your workflow, You know, neutral, yes, I mean
32:08
neutral. That's that's a great word.
32:09
I was struggling for a word, absolutely neutral.
32:13
And that all lends to that credibility and inconsistency,
32:17
that consistency in everything that you do, not just competent.
32:22
Everyone always thinks it's the smartest person in the room.
32:24
It's the smartest. You can be the most technical
32:27
savvy person, but if you don't have credibility and you're not
32:30
consistent with your professionalism, it really can
32:33
detract from even your your technical expertise.
32:37
Judges and juries, they notice patterns.
32:39
If your documentation or your communication isn't respectful
32:42
or it is respectful, you really may have to defend that or be
32:46
able to explain that, you know, they'll they'll assume that your
32:50
analysis and that process that you explained that you went
32:52
through carries that same integrity or not, right,
32:56
depending on, you know, how you carry yourself.
32:58
And then if you're consistent. So if you're sloppy and
33:00
defensive and careless on that, credibility starts to crumble
33:04
and starts to deteriorate. So professionalism, it's what
33:07
reinforces that reliability. And who doesn't like a reliable,
33:11
credible, professional forensic examiner?
33:14
I mean, it's a win, win, right? Right.
33:17
It tells the court this examiner doesn't not only know what
33:19
they're doing, but they actually take it seriously and they care.
33:22
Yeah. And I know Stacy deals with it
33:24
as much as I do talking to potential clients or attorneys,
33:29
they will compliment us on how we take what we do very
33:36
seriously. And it is part of, I mean all of
33:40
it is part of that professionalism that we carry
33:43
in, in our career. So now then let's talk about
33:46
that third pillar and that's education.
33:49
And all of us are educators, and we love to educate those who
33:54
really want to learn from us. This one touches everything we
33:57
do, both learning and teaching, and it's a thread that runs
34:01
through every part of our work, whether it's us decoding an
34:06
artifact, mentoring a new examiner, or just explaining
34:10
findings in court. Yeah.
34:12
I mean, I think you, we could all agree that, you know,
34:15
education really is the backbone to expert testimony.
34:18
I mean, you can't have expert testimony without education,
34:21
right? Education and research,
34:22
educating not only ourselves, We all know technology evolves,
34:25
evolves so fast, quick. I mean, even in versions and
34:29
things, you know, you could say, hey, the, the findings and the
34:32
artifacts were in this app using this version.
34:36
And in, in an hour, a blink of an eye, it has already changed,
34:39
right? So you have to be able to speak.
34:41
To are you talking about Eyeleaf?
34:43
Yeah, you have to be backward compatible yourself as well as
34:45
forward thinking too. So it really keeps us relevant
34:49
and that lends to that credibility, again, you know,
34:51
with us as digital forensic examiners.
34:54
But it's not only just about keeping ourselves sharp, it's
34:57
also about educating those prosecutors.
34:59
One of the big things for me was prosecutors, but also our
35:03
agents, the investigators, the local PD, you know, we did the
35:07
image scan and things and tools and techniques that we use to
35:11
help them locate digital evidence and be able to preserve
35:14
it properly. So then we can kind of they can
35:17
hand the baton and then we can take over from there if that
35:20
makes any sense. So they really depend on us to
35:22
translate what that data means and and help us be able to
35:28
preserve that data and then be able to do a report and find an
35:31
analysis for court. So.
35:32
Right, right. It's huge.
35:34
And you're not just explaining bits and bytes or zeros and ones
35:38
and certainly not X's and O's on the hard drives.
35:41
You are actually translating technology into truth for those
35:46
who are listening and learning from us.
35:49
And the way you communicate can make or break how what you're
35:53
saying is understood. You're right.
35:55
You want to demystify that digital evidence.
35:57
You know, I think about the you know, cuz I can.
35:59
My mother, she's 83 years old and she thinks she's tech savvy
36:02
and she's not. But what I will tell you is a
36:05
lot of times not understanding leads to distrust.
36:09
I can't do online banking because I can't trust it because
36:13
she doesn't understand. It is something as simple as
36:15
that. So I that to me that is that is
36:18
digital evidence, that is forensics.
36:21
You want to make my 83 year old mother be able to trust what you
36:26
are explaining. You want to strip away that
36:28
jargon and and help to see the story inside the data.
36:32
You know you got to help tell the story, but help them to
36:34
understand what the story is telling.
36:37
And that is demystifying that the digital evidence itself.
36:40
So you want to empower the jurors because they have to make
36:43
an informed decision and then a fair informed decision.
36:47
So you know, patient teachers to me, patient teachers, and I say
36:51
I stress the word patient are really your best expert
36:55
witnesses. You have to be patient teachers.
36:57
So you're going to simplify things without oversimplifying
37:00
because I think sometimes we can almost seem like we're talking
37:03
down and we don't want to do that.
37:05
You always want to be respectful.
37:06
I think, Becky, that's why you and Stacey get complimented on
37:09
that, because you demystify and help to understand without being
37:14
disrespectful or talking down to.
37:16
So it's you're bringing them along together with us all.
37:19
You know, take the time to make sure the understanding happens
37:21
in the courtroom and you kind of do it and make them feel like
37:24
you're doing it all together. Because I don't know about you,
37:27
but when I've had to explain or walk someone through in, in a
37:30
layman's terms, it helps me understand as well too.
37:32
You know it. I'm part of that process of
37:35
understanding too. Yeah.
37:37
I mean, it happened today, you know, I was talking to potential
37:42
client that wanted to bring me in on a case, but he didn't have
37:48
an understanding totally on the rules and law of how evidence
37:54
and specifically digital evidence is owned by
37:58
individuals. And so someone else can't
38:01
consent to giving access to someone else's devices.
38:05
And so just being able to educate him a little bit on that
38:08
today, he didn't quite understand it at first, but I
38:11
just listened to him and then explained it back.
38:14
So it always goes back to being able to tell that story, right.
38:18
And education is isn't just about degrees or certifications,
38:25
it's really about the ability to communicate your work with that
38:31
clarity and confidence. And that's what we look for as
38:34
examiners to be, but also to educate examiners to be.
38:39
Yep, exactly. And that's not easy.
38:43
It's not easy to do because I think as as we're going through
38:48
forensic examiner certification, just your baseline
38:50
certification. I mean, does it stop there for
38:53
either of you? It is the next certification.
38:55
It is the next body of knowledge.
38:58
It's the next thing, right? You're always looking to educate
39:01
yourself and keep up with the technology alone.
39:05
You also have to keep up with being an instructor, being an
39:08
educator and helping people understand, right?
39:11
It's not about like giving a lecture.
39:12
We've all given lectures and you see the students eyes, you know,
39:17
glazing over. We don't want to do that to our
39:19
jurors right in the courtroom. But I like to think of a
39:21
courtroom and I've heard many people use it as an analogy.
39:24
It is really like a classroom. You know, it just doesn't come
39:26
with a schedule as in a textbook or, you know, and a syllabus.
39:31
But definitely it should be treated like a classroom because
39:35
you are helping to educate and inform and you're really walking
39:38
the jury through evidence as if you were just, like I said,
39:41
bringing them along together with yourself, you know,
39:44
unveiling that story with that credibility and confidence in
39:46
that presence. So sometimes it's really easy to
39:50
start using acronyms. I, I, you know, the military
39:52
will say that, you know, we say it a lot in, in federal law
39:55
enforcement. Try to trade some of that, those
39:57
acronyms and technical jargon for something like a picture or
40:00
a visual or an analogy. I remember back when we had to
40:04
do tech terms in moot court as we were coming through.
40:08
Part of it was hey. Give us the definition for a
40:11
peer. So you're going to get the
40:12
technical stuff and you're in a while with the technical jargon.
40:14
But then there was also the heck, tell me in layman's terms,
40:17
you know, tell me what this is. So write blockers, we'd say,
40:19
hey, it's like a book, your hard drives like a book in a glass
40:23
case that you can't touch. And a write blocker lets you
40:25
look through it, but it won't let anyone touch it or damage
40:28
the ones and zeros. So using something that's more
40:31
relatable, less technical jargon, you know, making those
40:34
comparisons that everyone is familiar with really will help
40:39
tell the story. And it really helped bring bring
40:43
that informing and bring those jurors understanding along.
40:46
You know, and don't you love when you see with your students
40:49
when that moment of or it clicks or you've asked the 50 millionth
40:52
question and then they finally are starting to answer you and
40:55
give you feedback and then they're like, Yep, that clicks.
40:58
Or like when you're grading the homework and you're like, wow,
41:01
these submissions are really good.
41:04
But now they're they're getting it.
41:06
They're at least speaking to the right things.
41:08
Yes. After 10 win weeks of educating,
41:11
you're finally getting. Those.
41:12
Absolutely. Yeah.
41:13
And for sure doesn't. I feel good as a educator as
41:16
well. You know, that mystery kind of
41:18
fades, you know, and and really, all you're left was this.
41:21
Now they understand, right? Yeah.
41:23
And to me, I love that. I love that.
41:25
Whether it's a nod or aha, I got it.
41:28
You know, it simply pass into that information, not just
41:32
knowing it, but understanding it.
41:33
To me, that's really where you step over.
41:35
You can tell people a lot of information.
41:37
You can spew out a lot of information and it's just one
41:40
way passing. But when that information turns
41:43
into true understanding, and it's structured into a way to
41:46
tell that human story, people like stories, people understand
41:51
stories, so why not tell that story?
41:53
Yeah. And all of that to say, you
41:56
know, knowledge isn't just a tool, it's a responsibility.
42:00
And we have to pass that knowledge along.
42:02
Yeah, you're right. Well said.
42:04
Education is the engine that drives the other pillar.
42:07
The other two pillars. Preparation gives you structure,
42:10
presence gives you delivery, but education gives you purpose.
42:14
I like I like that education gives you purpose.
42:17
I mean, if you really take a look at just that last, it
42:20
really, truly does. If you can help someone
42:23
understand something or teach them something or yourself,
42:26
right, You always have to be a receiver of education too.
42:28
We can never stop being a student, right?
42:31
Being a perpetual student. But if you really look at like
42:34
really think about. Stay accurate in this.
42:37
Yes. Correct.
42:38
Never stop learning. You have to.
42:39
Correct. It's not just about you teaching
42:40
other people, but the better student you are, the better
42:43
teacher you're going to be, I think as well.
42:45
But really, it is it it it it speaks volumes.
42:49
So yeah, I'm sorry, Becca. I just, I love that you said
42:51
that that sent. No.
42:53
And, and I was telling the students, I was telling the
42:56
students, you know, when Stacey and I went to the oxygen
42:58
forensics conference, you know, a lot of times what you're there
43:02
to present or you're going to conferences to present.
43:05
But I also like to hear, I like the knowledge.
43:10
And I have, I have said over and over and again, there, there
43:14
were some great presentations given at all at that oxygen
43:18
forensics. I was just so impressed with the
43:22
people that presented and the knowledge that they shared.
43:27
I mean, I learned something in every, every single presentation
43:32
I heard. So again, getting fed the
43:35
knowledge and and sharing the knowledge is important.
43:39
That's great, 100%. So, Laura, let's kind of start
43:44
wrapping up. Do you have one message for new
43:48
examiners who might want to do what we do, go all the way and
43:53
end up on the witness stand? What would your message for them
43:56
be? Master your craft.
43:58
Never stop looking for ways to communicate and tell the story.
44:03
The evidence speaks through you. You're the one who's going your
44:05
findings, your report. You're the one that's going to
44:09
tell that story, but you need to bring along those jurors.
44:13
So master your craft. Be present in the moment.
44:15
You know, always educate yourself and educate others.
44:18
Take those opportunities, especially if you're still doing
44:20
digital forensics, to educate the attorneys, to educate the
44:24
law enforcement personnel. It's a team effort to educate
44:27
the attorneys. 100%. All of us are doing it
44:30
constantly. And they're not afraid to tell
44:32
you. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, Right.
44:33
Wait. So you really always look for
44:35
those opportunities. That's how you're going to not
44:39
only uphold your findings, but also just bring your integrity
44:43
to that, you know, bring that integrity and that credibility.
44:45
So master your craft. Yeah, Now one other thing I did
44:47
want to ask, and I'm going to go off topic from the courtroom,
44:50
but Laura, I know you deployed and did some crazy things and
44:54
people like to hear war stories. So like what is 1 quick story
44:59
you want to tell like about the craziest thing that ever
45:02
happened to you in the FBI? So you're.
45:04
Like so many. Like I know I'm like crazy like.
45:10
Or whatever story you love to. Tell yeah, it doesn't have to be
45:12
necessarily well I was working in a forensic or examiner
45:17
capacity. So I was deployed overseas into
45:19
one of the sandbox areas into Iraq.
45:22
And I was asked which to do something that was totally not
45:26
part of the forensic piece because we were working 12 hour
45:29
days, seven days a week working constantly looking at digital
45:33
evidence for the mission over there.
45:35
And I remember being asked because I had a Courier card.
45:38
So for those of you who know, yeah, having a Courier card,
45:40
what that means. Yes.
45:42
To be able it. Means you do not have diplomatic
45:45
immunity. That's what that means.
45:46
Yes, it does. I like that you said that.
45:48
Let's be we're being honest here.
45:50
Absolutely. I was asked to do be part of a
45:53
two person integrity movement of a rack mounted server and Oh
45:58
yeah. So I can't tell you any of the
46:00
players or anything. I was just told to meet this
46:03
gentleman at the embassy and then I had to walk outside the
46:07
embassy. Mind you I am not a armed
46:10
personnel at all. And even over there they would
46:13
let you practice and use the fire.
46:15
I never was a gun toter. I never really knew how my
46:18
husband would die if I was telling everyone this, but I was
46:22
asked to go meet this gentleman who walked me outside of the
46:28
actually embassy walls. And we went to this crazy place
46:31
where I had to meet this other guy.
46:32
And I just kept saying, God, I wish.
46:34
And I was just trusting everyone like.
46:36
And so I met the I, he took me to the location I was supposed
46:40
to be. And then I was going to meet the
46:41
gentleman that I did work with at the, the place that I was
46:44
doing digital forensics. And he, I just kept saying, God,
46:47
I hope I get to see him because I go into the girl or into the,
46:50
the restroom at that place. And you know what the military
46:52
stuff is like. So there was all these like
46:54
Playboy pin up posters. And I'm like, Oh my gosh.
46:56
So I felt like I was in like a mechanic's shop.
46:58
So I come back out and I was never so happy to see this,
47:00
this, this guy that I worked with one of my counterparts.
47:03
So he is standing there with a rack mounted server with a
47:07
guitar strap. I'm not kidding you.
47:09
And he had a duct taped to the server.
47:15
And he's like, OK, we're ready to go.
47:16
I'm like, what are we doing? And he had like all these guns
47:20
strapped to him. So we get into this crazy
47:22
vehicle. It's one of those like ones that
47:24
go over sand and everything. We go to the Hilo landing pad
47:27
because I had to just stay with him to say that nothing ever
47:30
happened with this server. So the person that dropped him
47:32
off. So to a person integrity, we fly
47:34
back. The whole time I'm thinking what
47:36
in the world with the gun strapped to it was hilarious.
47:39
And I thought that was crazy because I just the whole way,
47:41
I'm just like, I just hope I'm in the right place and with the
47:44
right people. And I just trusted and it, it
47:47
was pretty quick and easy. And then we land back at our
47:50
home base and I was like, all right, good, we're good to go.
47:52
And yeah, so that was probably one of the craziest things that
47:55
I ever did. That was kind of outside of the
47:57
realm of what I thought I would have been doing when I was
48:00
working over there. So.
48:01
It was a free. Blackhawk Ride.
48:03
Yeah, all I have in my the vision of my eyes is a rack
48:07
mounted server with a rifle. Big old rifle.
48:11
Duct tape. Duct tape to it if I tape the
48:14
gun. I'm not lying.
48:15
The. Server it will be super safe.
48:17
I was wondering like, well, yeah, he had like sidearms too,
48:20
but I was like, what are we gonna do with that?
48:22
And it's. Just like was it a long rifle?
48:25
Like a long. Gun.
48:26
Yeah, a long gun. Like how long was the the rack
48:29
mounted server? Was it turned in such a way?
48:31
So then like, could you still like am I?
48:34
Yeah, that's a good point. And then so then the server is
48:38
such a way that I could still like point and shoot.
48:41
That's a really. That's the server because it's
48:43
tape securely. It was like tape diagonal, the
48:47
server's tape. Yeah, you're right.
48:48
Maybe if he would have turned it.
48:50
And I tell you, when the helicopter landed, that thing
48:52
was, you know, the wind that the the propellers put out.
48:55
This server was kind of the guy was small.
48:57
He was a small dude. I mean, I'll tell you, I thought
48:59
he was going to fall over. It was like, it was just
49:01
comical. Yeah, the server and the rifle.
49:06
I want to see AAI generated video of how this went down.
49:11
I need like a sketch artist and then put it in an AI generated
49:15
video. It was an intimidation factor.
49:19
This gun strapped to this server.
49:21
You're not getting to it OK. I know.
49:25
So the next thing has. A gut be careful.
49:28
It's protected. That's called triple layer.
49:32
It's not only HTTPS, but it's another layer of security.
49:37
That's right, that was your layer of security.
49:40
I remember the next day, you know, working in the forensics
49:43
lab, they were just like, hey, yeah, you were on AI Was like,
49:45
yeah, it was very interesting. It had nothing to do with
49:48
digital forensics, but I was like, yeah, it was kind of, it
49:50
was kind of one of those crazy experiences that was like, never
49:54
again. What I could have ever be
49:55
repeated. You know what I mean?
49:56
Like that moment in time would ever, never ever be repeated.
50:00
As my sister and I say around here, you can't make that crap
50:02
up. You cannot.
50:04
You cannot. That is true.
50:06
Yeah, That's probably one of the craziest where I still don't
50:09
even understand, like how that ever happened.
50:12
Yes, yes. Did the server have a gun?
50:14
That's the question every time Stacey sees me.
50:17
Why did the server have a gun? Did we know why yet?
50:20
I'll ask you that next time, yes?
50:22
Exactly. Stay tuned for.
50:25
Yeah, part 44 Why did the server have a gun?
50:29
Exactly. Oh my God.
50:32
God, that's. Funny, that could be a whole
50:34
another podcast. Totally.
50:36
Yeah, the. Server, what is your level of
50:38
security? With him and the Gun could have
50:41
that own podcast. Oh, my God.
50:44
Goodness. Well, Laura, we thank you so
50:47
much for joining us. We thank you for your service to
50:50
the FBI, your nearly 44 decades of service to the FBI, telling
50:55
us fun stories, giving us wisdom and knowledge about preparation,
51:00
presence and education when when being digital forensic examiners
51:05
and experts in testimony. Yeah, we we really appreciate
51:09
you and growing with us in this process.
51:13
And yeah, thanks for joining us today.
51:16
Thank you for the opportunity and thank you for what you both
51:18
do. It is an integral part of
51:21
keeping up with technology, just keeping passing the good
51:24
information. So thank you for what you both
51:26
do. Absolutely.
51:27
It's our pleasure. Yeah.
51:29
So until next time, stay safe, stay sharp, and as always, keep
51:34
parsing the truth one bite at a time.
51:38
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51:51
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51:58
training next year in Orlando. Thanks.
52:06
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.