Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 808: Holding Circle with Dr. Nina Burrowes

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Episode 808: Holding Circle with Dr. Nina Burrowes · The Trauma Therapist

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Trauma Therapist Podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early and ad free right
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now. Become a Plus listener by going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma
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Therapist Podcast and signing up today or welcome back to the Trauma Thepist podcast.
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My name is Gamiferson. My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible
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selves, to be human, to be real, not just a clinician.
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I'm a big believer in who we are is more important than what we know,
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and this requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires
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intention. Can learn more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma
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Therapist Project dot com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get
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started, all right, Nana, here we go. So five four,
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three, two and one are folks. Welcome back and I am thrilled to
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have back. Doctor Nina Burrows, Nina, welcome back. Thank you so
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much for having me back. You're welcome. So. Nina is a psychologist,
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author, and activist specializing in the psychology of sexual violence and relationship abuse.
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She's the author of The Courage to Be Me and illustrated book about recovery
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from sexual abuse, also Eyes Open to Sexual Abuse, what every parent needs
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to know, and the creator of the online course how do people heal from
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Trauma? As an educator, Nina is keen to bring the trauma literature to
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a wider audience, using illustration, video events, and even a game show
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to help people build their understanding of trauma, consent and relationships. She has
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a lot of new things going on here, including holding circle where we're going
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to talk about that, and injustice ceremonies for survivors of sexual harm. We'll
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talk about each of those things. Nina, welcome back, Thanks for having
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me. Guys, you're right, so we're before we go in here,
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share with the listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently. I'm
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originally from Hampshire, which is on the south coast of England. That is
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home. But I last time I spoke to you, I was traveling.
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We had like a post lockdown, let's travel moment. So that was eighteen
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months of traveling around the UK and not knowing where we would end, and
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we are now at our ending. We found this beautiful town in Scotland.
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It's like right in the middle of Scotland. It's stunning. It's called Pittlockry
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and this is where I'm speaking to you from tonight, from my little cabin
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in the garden. Wow. Very cool. So for our listeners who maybe
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aren't too familiar, give us the thumb. How did all this start for
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you? How did you get into this? Not by careful planning, I
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would say, like I think by luck, by having a firm sense of
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maybe where I don't belong and like not being in those places. So I
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think I was set up. I did my PhD in forensic psychology, and
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I guess, then you're on track to become an academic. But I knew
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that that wouldn't be a good fit for me. So I wanted to do
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something that was very practical with those academic skills, and so I ended up
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getting a job at the Prison Service initially, but I was covering someone's maternity
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leave, so it was one of those jobs. It was a year,
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and afterwards they were like, if you were freelance, we have work for
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you, and so I started working for myself, like very early in my
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career, as lots of people do, I guess in this space, but
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I think I had less of a roadmap because I was like a freelance academic
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who had this practical lens, and I ended up following the topic area of
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sexual harm wherever it would take me, initially working with people who perpetrate harm,
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but then getting interested in the kind of the victim survivor side of that,
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and then really the public and juries and you know, all of this
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stuff. I think me too probably happened after I was already heavily into the
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work, and so since me too. Then we worked with universities, we
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worked with colleges, employers, like there's really these days, there's no space
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we can't go into and say, hey, have you thought about consent?
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Have you thought about sexual harassment? Are you trauma informed? And so I
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get to be an educator? What pulled you into the space in the first
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place, Because it's a heavy space, it's really heavy, and I was
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my first My instinct wasn't attraction, it was a version. I was offered
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a job. I wanted to work for the prison Service, but I didn't
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choose the sex offender side of it. That was just that was what the
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job was, and it was the only job they had. So I was
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like, Okay, I'll try it. I think so I never really chose
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it initially, but I definitely stayed, and that was a choice I've just
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as a psychologist, I just find it. I mean it's it's fascinating and
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it's difficult, it's challenging, and like the amount of harm that is caused
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and the scale on which is caused, like it is, you know,
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deeply meaningful, and I find actually it's a privilege. And as I've developed
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in my career, you know what is we often talk all about vicarious trauma
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working in these spaces, I experienced caurious healing too, Like I feel like
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what my work has asked me to open my eyes to in service of others
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has been a huge benefit for me personally. So I'm mostly mostly I feel
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like my work has been just a very generous gift as well, and I
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have every reason to stay. I've never heard in that term by curious healing.
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I like it. Yeah, yeah, it's it's I think it's true.
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But you have a very interesting, unique slant on the work you do.
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For example, you know, we talked about some of the books that
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you've done, illustrated books and so forth. Why do you where does that
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come from? Why do you find meaning or importance in that particular perspective,
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I'm really keen as an academic, I had access to all of this information,
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you know, important information about trauma. I mean, these days there
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are there's a lot, you know, you can get information about trauma a
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lot more readily than you could ten years ago. And when it came to
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you know, before me too, before these bigger conversations, public conversations about
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sexual harm and its impacts, I just didn't see enough of sharing of that
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really useful information with the public. And when I got curious about it,
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also kind of understanding that not every academic has got that in their skill set
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or in their remit. Like the conventional career is one way you're teaching in
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universities where you're writing these incredibly hard to read papers. But the truth is,
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I mean, most of these jobs are funded by the public ultimately through
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one shape or another. And I always saw it that my job was to
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be of service to the people living with the issue. So I was really
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keen to do what I could to translate that material into formats that anyone could
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engage with, most especially the person who is you know, really questioning their
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own reactions and responses and their own mental well being and not equipped with enough
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of an understanding of what's really going on. And I feel like that kind
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of secondary harm stuff that you know, not just what happened to you,
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but what happened afterwards. How were you helped to navigate that space? What
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were the stories you were told? And you know all of that stuff.
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That's that's huge. So it's been it's been my privilege to try and create
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stuff that people can like I use cartooning a lot. I think a cartoon
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is is really like it's like wholesome, Like you kind of have to get
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to the essence of what you're talking about, and you can use humor,
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and I think that's you know, that's important, can be important. So
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recently you I don't know if you just started doing it, but it sounds
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like you're introducing your work to the public in terms of Circle work. Yeah,
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talk to us about that. How did that come about? Why is
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this meaningful to you? I think I've been personally looking for Circle for a
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really long time. I felt I was in this position whereas working for myself
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and I felt the lack of colleagues, like I really felt a desire to
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connect with peers in group spaces, and I didn't. I didn't want to
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go through you know, PowerPoint presentation with them. I wanted to like connect
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with them in a way that felt I was looking for a deeper connection.
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I always thought the ideal would be around a fire, you know, like
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I think that's a kind of metaphor, but it evokes something in me that
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makes sense to me anyway, And I was I feel like I was looking
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for circle before I knew circle existed. I had this kind of sense.
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And then yeah, eventually it was through work I was looking at. I
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was educating myself around ethnicity and race, and in the book I was reading,
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it was actually recommended if you're going to come together in groups to discuss
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whiteness and to discuss ethnicity, then you might want to check out circle.
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And yeah, then I started reading, educating myself, getting some training myself
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and how to hold these spaces and in lockdown, one of the things we
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started to do was to hold circle for staff working in rape crisis centers because
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they were in these situations where they were still doing the work, but they
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were at home. They weren't getting to see their colleagues, and so they
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needed ways to connect and we were able to provide that for them these remote
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meetings. Yeah, everyone was remote, but still holding their client list and
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still doing the work, but not getting that you know, that cup of
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tea moment with their colleagues, not getting to see people, and of course
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going through lockdown the same as the rest of us and the stress of that.
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So yeah, it was it was a lot of a lot of zoom.
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Now what I mean, let's get more specific here. What about the
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circle gets you? I mean, I've done circle work, I love it,
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but for you share with us, why is it so attractive to you?
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I find it has that depth that I've been looking for. Like circle
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feels more like being in a poem than being in a workshop or being in
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a clinical environment. It feels like I can use words like soul in circle
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and thinking, yeah, these are like my soul is alive here, my
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spirits. I feel like it makes space for the quieter parts of myself.
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And you know that, especially when you're in these roles where maybe you're used
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to being in a role where you're taking responsibility for things that are happening,
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or you're supposed to be the person with answers to questions. Circle is beautifully
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a place where you can have questions, but no one's really looking for an
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answer, and everybody's holding a space. So it feels healing without feeling clinical.
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And it feels deeply feminist, which for me is it's so important to
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like also have those a way of living your politics, if that makes sense.
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Like, I don't want to just read about feminism and spout stuff about
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it. I want to experience it and live it, and Circle gives me
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a way of doing that. Now, are you doing it in person?
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Also? We do it in person when I'd say eighty percent of our circles
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are online, Okay. Now, Initially my thought would be because when you're
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sitting in a circle with people, there's that there's that feeling of being in
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a circle, which in and of itself is very powerful. But how do
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you replicate that online? How does it not just become a bunch of people
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on a screen? Yeah, and with a Well, I think I actually
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think that in some ways online has an advantage, Like they both have their
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different strengths. What I like about online is so a lot of the people
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what we would be working with might be survivors of sexual harm or relationship abuse.
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So we're thinking about trauma a lot. I feel like online circles you
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can hold that trauma in a different way. I think for some people it's
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easier to show up for an online event because you can keep your camera off
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if you need to, you could just leave very easily, rather than if
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we'd all come into a room. There's something about boundaries as well. You
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know, when we have in person circles, it's almost this question of when
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does the circle start and when does it close? And you've got all this
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this conversation happening before and afterwards, whereas we're zoom like that boundary is really
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clear, like we all arrive and we all leave, and so there's a
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container that is, you know, the boundaries are different. And then beautifully
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you can have people in different time zones, in different countries, you know.
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So it to me it has a lot of advice. Answer is I.
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Having done both, I find that online circles could be just as intimate.
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I do wish someone would either tell me about or build some software so
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our faces could be in a circle instead of a square. Oh yeah,
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But beyond that, I find that the intimacy is perfectly possible because because it's
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not a performance, you know, because it you know, I think that
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depth of connection is possible over the phone, it's possible on zoom in person.
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Yeah, that is such a cool idea to have a software that does
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that. I wish I had those skills. Someone email me. So you're
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obviously facilitating these but it sounds like you're not, for lack of a better
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expression, you're not. You're not doing it in a heavy handed way,
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not that you would anyway, but yeah, talk about that that balance of
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not show up. I try to show up grounded, and I think my
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process has been one of, over time and experience, just trusting the circle
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and trusting the group more and more. For me a lot of the so
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I would call it hosting, facilitation tends to be a word we use,
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so people recognize that, and I think it's if you've put the invitation out
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there, if it's your invitation people are responding to, if you're starting and
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closing things and kind of guiding, then yeah, sure you're you're hosting.
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But in the same way as if you have people over for dinner. You've
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chosen the menu, but people are really there for the conversations and the connections,
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and that's outside of your you know, your control, that's about the
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group. I love the fact that in circle, I mean really, yes,
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I'm hosting it, but I'm also a participant, so I'm share as
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much as anyone else. I'm showing up as not any kind of expert,
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just simply the person who put the invitation out there. And I think it's
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a process of learning to trust trust the group. And I guess part of
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those experiences are, you know, a circle in a way it can't really
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go wrong. I think a workshop can go wrong. I think you could
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possibly fail at holding a workshop, but I don't think you can fail at
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hosting a circle in a sense of it's really about the group and one of
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the things we have to I think one of the things that makes it circle
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is we have a series of agreements and they really are the shape more than
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our chairs are the shape. And we have an agreement which is about trusting
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that whoever shows up and whatever comes up is as it should be. And
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I think for me as a host, that's the kind of that ultimate I'm
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not supposed to be in control of this like if and it helps if someone's
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being really quiet. I'm gonna respect the fact that they're really probably honoring their
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boundaries today. So in a way, they are fully showing up. They're
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listening to their own boundaries and their desire to be quiet, and that's that's
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what they have today. So yeah, I'm finding and getting so much from
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it myself. It's it's a gift. You talked about doing a circle with
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people who work with survivors. What might the the invitation for them be?
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What might what you know? You're you're hosting this party in a sense,
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what's the invitation say? It says a lot for that group. I feel
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like when we're talking about thinking about creating spaces that are trauma informed and for
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us, we're always thinking about consent as well, and how important that is.
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I think those two things really go hand in hand. Then you're trying
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to I think the invitation is key so that the person entering the space knows
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what they're entering as much as they're able to without having the experience. So
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it's like they've they've read the menu for dinner, but they've not eaten it
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yet, but they do know that this is a steakhouse, or you know
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it's Asian food, so they need to kind of opt in in a way
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that feels good for them, especially if they're arriving wondering if this is going
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to be a space in which they might bring their vulnerabilities. So our invitations
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would be as explicit and long as possible about how many people might be there,
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how long it will last. We always we don't just to have random
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circles. We always have a theme for our circles. And that's really useful
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again for this client group, because we're holding a circle in a few weeks
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time on conflict. If you're not in a place where you want to talk
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about conflict, that would be one to not attend. But then if you
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attend that you've got this knowledge of not just how many people it will be
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there and how long, but this is what we're going to focus on today,
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whereas if we just have a random circle, anything could come up.
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So I find that really useful too. And also with people who lived experience
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of sexual harm, we're always very explicit about disclosure and what level of disclosure
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might be appropriate in this group, and we try to discuss that in the
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group too. If people need any clarification. Sometimes you know we don't have
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too many group spaces. You know, a lot of the support is one
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to one, and so when we do create groups I think we have in
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our world I think in the world in general, but certainly in the world
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of recovering from sexual harm sexual violence, and so we need to kind of
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you know, for a lot of people entering the kinds of spaces we create,
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they have maybe never consciously met other people who've also were abused in childhood
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or you know, like this is and certainly maybe the first time they're walking
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into a room full of these people, So you know, what's that etiquette?
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And you know what's the etiquette about the one thing you know unites you
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all, which is this experience, some kind of experience. And so we
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tried to hold that because you know, some people create groups exactly for like
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tell your story and be heard and give it voice. And I think that's
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great and fine, but that's not what we're creating with our circles. We're
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creating a space where there's an understanding that they're very well might be people when
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the experience here, and you might choose to share that you have a lived
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experience, but this isn't the place to go into details about the nature of
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that lived experience, because that isn't what other people have you know, signed
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up for, but it is the place for what then connection I would say
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mostly in circle. I feel like, you know, we know that we
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healing community. So then if we're interested in being of service to people who
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are on a healing journey, creating communities feels like an important thing to be
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doing rather than you know, just the one to one and then go back
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to your community. I feel like people, you know, that people can
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be healed by and get an understanding of their own experience by encountering others.
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You know, you can to see yourself and someone else or see the struggle
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that you used to have in someone else. And I think there's you know,
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in terms of that journey with self compassion. Sometimes that's easier to access
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through having compassion for others. So I think there's a lot of role modeling,
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a lot of mirroring, a lot of you know, and we're talking
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about harms that are caused in relationship when it comes to sexual harm, like
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so sid I believe some of the things that need to heal can actually only
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happen in relationship because you know, trusting people, trusting strangers, trusting yourself
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in a group is one thing. To learn to trust this professional who's here
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and you've now had sessions with them. That's and that could be a huge
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part of someone's journey. It's so important. But how do you trust strangers?
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How do you trust? So I think that sense of longing and connection
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and trust and watching your own boundaries in a group, what you want to
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share, what you don't want to share, you know. I feel like
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that's what Circle is offering people. So many things, right, I mean,
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such such a such a natural world of spontaneity as well. I mean
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it's it's it's almost I don't want to use the word demanding. That sounds
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very aggressive, but it almost will invite someone to be super present. Yeah,
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that I think invites is right. As there's a there's an invitation in
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the space, there's an invitation also for silence in the group too. And
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I think that when you're invited into a space and you've got an understanding of
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what the center is and what the theme is, there's also an invitation with
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Circle, Like you know, people were going to share and talk and respond
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to questions, but we're not going to comment on what they say. Like
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I might say thank you to everyone, like thank you for sharing, but
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that's it. And I think, you know, sometimes you see this huge
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amount of relief in people say, oh my god, I don't have to
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respond, and that can be a skill that people need to work on.
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I think for people who we do do a lot of holding space for professionals
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in the space, and I think for them it could be such a gift.
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Just you're not responsible for everyone else here, you're just you know,
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you're part of a group, but you're you know, you can kind of
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let go of something in this space that you're often holding. And I think
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then that that does bring out a different side of us this and like this
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stuff is ancient, right, this is there's there's a we find deep wisdom
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and circle because it has depth to it. I'm talking to you from Scotland.
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So our country is littered with stone circles. I can. I can
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walk to two from my front door everywhere, isn't it awesome? And so
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we know that our ancient ancestry has had some kind of relationship with these faces,
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but we don't know what happened there. We need archaeologists to kind of
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tell us what to guess. We might need to look to folk tales.
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Maybe we can find some clues there if they're ancient enough. But you know,
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thank goodness and with a lot of gratitude to the kind of those indigenous
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cultures that managed to keep these practices alive despite everything that they had to survive,
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because now in our modern world, we can I feel like I'm reconnect
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with something in a very modern way, like on Zoom is something that happened
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on the hill just up from my house. And I'm sure the technicalities of
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it is different, but the idea of coming together and what happens when we
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do, I'm sure there's a connection there. So I know people are listening
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to this, therapists, coaches, survivors, combination of both wanting to know
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or thinking to themselves, oh my god, I want to do this.
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I want to get involved with this. What's coming up? Where you do
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you have opportunities? You mentioned you work with providers. What's coming up in
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terms of your offerings in this space? So we are we've always offer to
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hold circle for organizations, for their staff teams and so that they can experience
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it. But we've we're just starting to offer circle facilitation training so that those
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organizations can begin to circle themselves with their clients or internally. So we've got
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online training. We've got our first one in March of this year, but
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we'll have more through the year. It will be live, live online training.
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Yeah, live online, so UK time zone. But but yeah,
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of course people could could dial in and there are other places if you If
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you I think circle, I feel like it's something that people might begin to
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see more of. I think I don't know if it's lockdown or we're really
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trying to realize how much loneliness there is out there and how healing social connection
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is. So I would imagine if you search online, you're you'll find opportunities
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and maybe you'll be the person to create the opportunities. All right, Nina,
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what's the best way for people to get in contact with you? You
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can check out our website, which is consent Collective dot com. You can
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email us there at Hello at consent Collective dot com. You can find me
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on social media, but these days you're more likely to find me up at
29:17
the Mountain than on Twitter. So come to pill Lockery. I'll be easy
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to bump into there's not many of us here. We'll have people send you
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smoke signal or something. Yeah don't work. Well. Look, you know
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I love talking you man. You're just so You're just so inspiring and there's
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just something so grounded about you can feel it. Welcome back here anytime and
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we'll have your links up at the show notes page at the Trauma deperspodcast dot
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com. Nina, take care, Thank you guys. All right bye.
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