Latest / Honey Badger Radio / Speaking to Ziller Formerly of Women Against Feminism and What Happened to Them | Fireside Chat 245

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Speaking to Ziller Formerly of Women Against Feminism and What Happened to Them | Fireside Chat 245 · Honey Badger Radio

1:25
Brody whiskey. Oh you told me you couldn't have a lucky my secret.
1:38
Oh suddenly, slay hid reading. Let's begin. Indeed, Hello everybody,
2:02
and welcome to Honey Badger Radio. My name is Brian and this is the
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fireside Chat. And I am joined this week by the Women Against Feminism founder
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or are you a founder one of the founders? Yeah, and it's pronounced
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Yanni Johnny Yanna. Sorry, I have a I'm bad with names. Yeah,
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and so you did. Okay, First of all, you are one
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of the founders of a online group. I guess it was called Women Against
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Feminism? Can you tell me a little bit about what that is or was?
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All right, I'm sorry, just a moment I'm having for some reason.
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Your sound isn't coming out in obs. I can fix that, though,
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Give me just a moment and we'll we'll we'll get this right. It's
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been a while since I've done a fireside chat. And I see they my
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computer moved things around. I don't know why. Okay, say something now,
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Okay, I see it. Yes, now we're good. Okay.
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So I was asking you, thank you again about the story behind Women against
3:35
feministm coach, so go ahead. Okay, So Women against Feminism was something
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that started on Tumbler. It was like you could say, there were regular
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women who blogged about different things. You know, some people blogged about anti
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feminism, being an anti feminism, and some women probably just blogged about their
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life, maybe being a housewife, cooking and stuff like this. Right,
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and well, within the small anti feminist circles of Tumbler, let's say there
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were a few women who were blogging on their own personal blogs about why they
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are anti feminists. I was also blogging about why I am not a feminist,
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right, And then one of the women decided to pull a lot of
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the blogs together in a sense, and so like pull from many different women,
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and so we were blogging, and this was probably a largely unnoticed thing.
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Then what happened is that feminists had their like hastag who needs feminism,
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you know, where they would hold pictures and say this is why we need
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feminism basically, I remember that, right, So yeah, that and the
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woman against Feminism started to do the same. So on our blogs or the
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women their blogs, they would put and then someone started this website, I
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mean, this Tumbler called Women against Feminism, which would well those pictures and
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also blog post and also post herself about stuff, right, and got a
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lot of attention. It got because you know, it went with the hashtag.
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It got a lot of It got a lot of attention, and it
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started to go viral. At the same time, we started a Facebook group
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called Women Against Feminism for people who like just were interested in being women against
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feminism. And so people came into the Facebook group. There was a Facebook
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page and all of the pictures started to be posted to it and this went
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viral. So this was woman against Familism going viral, and then a lot
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of people saw it, especially feminist feminists, sort of just flood the Facebook
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group completely flooded, you know, like you know, they have more numbers
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than us when they're angry, you know. Yeah. Yeah, So so
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they came in and it became it was like a lot of like, y'all
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are bad because y'all are doing this two women, you know, women fought
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for this, and that we're standing on the backs of women. This is
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really bad for women. It's bad, you know. And well, so
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what happened is that the first of all, they trolled the group a lot,
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right, lots of they triggered at the time, Facebook used to have
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it such that if you trigger certain things enough then you would be like viewed
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as a hate group. So it got to the point where the group was
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triggered as a hate group and then got taken down. But in addition to
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that, the original person who started the blog post and she felt really bad
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about the way in which feminists are sort of was saying that we are anti
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women, you know. So so she was like, Okay, well,
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she doesn't want to do it anymore because she's she is not feminist, she
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is against feminism. She does have all these reasons why she's not a feminist,
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but she's not against women, and she doesn't really want to be involved
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in something that makes you feel bad, makes her feel like if she's being
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a bad person, or like if she's hurting women. So so she's like,
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no, okay, she's not starting it again. After we got taken
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down as a hate group, and then I said, well, okay,
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I will. I still want to go ahead with the group, So I
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started the group again. This is a point where like, you're still on
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Facebook. It's still on Facebook. So, honey, badgers the time,
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you all had a group, but our group got taken down, and so
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I asked Alison to help me, and she did so she posted for me
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in handeyback Badgers and so on that we were starting a group, and that's
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how the group got started, and so that group is still there today.
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We try to be very careful not to have hate so that we wouldn't get
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taken down. So it never got taken down. And you know, at
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the time we went, the whole thing went viral, so there were a
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lot of women who were interested, a lot of women were anti feminists,
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and it was really a good time because it was before people started to like
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segregate themselves into like conservatives and things. Oh yeah, sure, so it
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was before we had all our little groups, you know. So it was
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a really diverse group, and we have like admins from all the different so
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they are like a few different categories of women who are usually anti familists,
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Like you have your Christian anti feminists, you have your your atheist but still
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traditional anti feminists, you have your MRA anti feminists. And then they're also
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like egalitarian anti familist who see both men and women have issues. So we
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had like admins from all that, from all the different things. Then also
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there was a read it that was started also that got taken down, but
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you know, someone we also one of the women started to read it,
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so that was also something good. And the YouTube channel at the time also
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got started, so there was a YouTube channel, and then we had a
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campaign where like women were making videos saying why they're not a feminist from the
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group and then I took clips from it and the clips from their video and
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try to channel back to their page and stuff like this. So because they
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uploaded it all to their page, so that was something, but a lot
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of it like that didn't get noticed because yeah, but so what happened really
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is that so with all of that diversity, what happened is that the truth
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is that yeah, women against feminism are women against feminism, but they don't
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all agree. So, you know, you could be anti feminists because you're
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an egalitarian you believe that men and women need to be equal and that feminism
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is not equality, and you think women have problems and men have problems and
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they did. But then you could also be mri anti feminists in the sense
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that you think women actually don't really have problems and it's men who have the
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problem. Or you could be conservative traditional anti feminist who does not want equality.
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You hate equality. You want women to be in the kitchen and men
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to be out there. So what ended up happening is that these women,
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especially like within the admin group and stuff, started to fight with each other
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a lot. And it's all just like, you know, everybody wanted it
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their own way and they don't want to be associated with the people who wanted
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an opposite way. So there was a lot of fights. Yeah, and
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so what I did at the time, and I also got hurt because I
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also have my version of anti feminism, so well we'll get into that.
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We'll get into that. Yeah, So everybody had their own version, and
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everybody sort of got hurt, like everybody across the board got hurt by the
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fact that other people have other versions and want other things. So at the
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time, what I said was that I well, I was kind of I
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was. I said, okay, I'll step back because I really also can't
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deal with this. But I I said that everybody who of the admins who
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have their own version should like advertise their group within the group. So you
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had them. So they had the MRI anti familist, which was like Nati,
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you probably know her natik for I don't know. Oh yeah, yeah
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yeah, right, so she started the group uh hold on women, there
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was Women against Feminism and then it was a Fighting Feminism, Yeah, feminism,
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right, so she started Women Fighting Feminism which was the m group.
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Then the Christian anti familist she started her own group which was called Traditional.
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It was a traditional group, right, which did really well. That the
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one group that was very successful from it and it still is there today.
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And then you had the okay, so there's also another group of people who
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are like, they're concerned about birth rates and so on. They are usually
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traditional but not religious. They started their own group, but this girl she
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she kind of changed her mind with time, so and then right, and
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then the last group of anti feminists was really egalitarians, which is which kind
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of more aligned with me. So I just gave the group to that admin.
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I just gave Women Against Familism to that admin, and I just stepped
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out. But the problem is that that admin gave the group to somebody else,
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and that admin gave the group to somebody else, and that gave the
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group to somebody else, and then it ended up being really sidetrapped. It
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from what women against Feminism was, and it ended up being a kind of
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group with an egalitarian goal, and that wasn't what Women against Feminism was because
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it was something where it was inclusive of everybody, and it was just to
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show the views of women against feminism. It wasn't really to say things must
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be egalitarian, you know right, So I think so because they went extreme
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egalitarian, the pool of people then of course got much smaller. Because there's
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also some truth in numbers in that the majority of women against feminism who were
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they were Christian. This is just how it is that the majority are the
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Christian anti feminist you know right, So they are not egalitarians. This is
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not the reason why they are not. So the majority got locked out.
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It became a very small sort of subgroup and thing, and then the group
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kind of kind of died off. And so now I decided to kind of
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step back in, and I'm trying to sort of recreate something similar to what
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Women against Feminism was or was supposed to be by I am like on a
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journey to interview as many anti feminist women, and I also want to interview
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anti feminist men. So I'm basically on a journey to interview as many anti
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feminists as I can, and I want to pull it onto the Women against
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Feminism uh YouTube and I and I want to interview men from about YouTube channel
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also. But the point is I really want to interview and get the views
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of as many anti feminist people as I can, because I think that's what
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Women against Feminism was when it started. It was just the views of different
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women who are not feminists and why you know, we are not feminists and
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why we see the way different and it was it was about diversity, and
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I think that's important. So yeah, okay, so it sounds like what
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happens. So I'm actually in the current. I'm in that group Women against
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Feminism on Facebook. I don't go there very often. There's still a lot
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of like you know, I just sort of like see it in my feed
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and I keep moving not I don't use Facebook for much, you know,
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like post memes and it's it. But what it it sounds like happened is
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the group kind of fell into purity spiraling, where you know, people were
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and it might be it might be a problem with the fundamental philosophy of the
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group itself, because if you say, we are defining this group by what
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we are against. You'll find a lot of people saying, yes, I'm
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against this thing, But then when it comes to what they're for, that's
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where the conflict comes in. Right. So I mean, that's not a
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bad thing as long as people can understand, you know, that we're we
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are fighting against the same enemy, even if we have different goals. But
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maybe it's about like, can we set aside, you know, our goals
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or at least just live them out in our personal life while we're you know,
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fighting against this thing. Because the truth is, you tell me what
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you think about that. Because feminism is the way of the world right now,
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right it is like what everyone is defaulted to. So women speaking out
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against it is very important because it is supposed to be for them. That's
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why it exists. But if they say, well, look I don't need
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that, that is a big plus. But then you know, you have
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to be able to accept that. Some people are going to want to live
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a Christian life, some people are gonna want an egalitarian life, some people
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are going to want, you know, a secular traditional life that's not Christian
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whatever, And but we can do all that while still you know, I
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guess you know, understanding that feminism is not like whatever our answers are.
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That's not one of them, right right, So yeah, the thing is
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fist feminism has a lot of flaws from many different angles. One is that
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they think they can speak for women when women are extremely diverse, and definitely
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they cannot speak for the majority of women, you know. They also,
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of course they they don't include men. They say they want equality and they
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don't care about men. This is it's not just that they don't care,
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it's that they hate men, and it doesn't even have it doesn't really offer
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anything to women either. They don't just dislike men, They also just like
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women. It's just about and especially women who want to get along with men,
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Because our women who want to build with men, who want who want
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marriage, who want some sort of stable relationship with men, who want to
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work together with men, and who understand that these sexes are genuinely co dependent.
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We are not against each other, and it makes no sense to pit
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men and women against each other because we are co dependent. This is not
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the same as classism or racism and stuff like this. How they like to
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convolate the two and say, well, racism is the same as sexism,
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and no, it's not the same. Racism is a form of classism that
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is like, you know, a rich person, bace, it's a poor
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person. Rich people don't care about poor people because they don't have to live
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together. Set the sexist they are co dependent men. As a man,
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you you care more about your mother or your daughter or your wife than you
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do about some guy who lives in Asia. So there is no there is
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no you know, like unity between men and men or unity between women in
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the same way that there would potentially be between men and women who have to
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live together. So yes, yeah, and plus you know what you're for
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as a woman, Like we're talking about the women's group, right, so
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you have women who are Christian, women who are non who are some who
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are egalitarian whatever. Right, you probably also have, you know, women
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in the group that were let's say women in the group that were against feminism
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full stop, no matter what. Then you had some women that were probably
18:52
for you know, like feminism of the past or feminism in another country.
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And that's going to be a conflict too because I think, yeah, go
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ahead, go ahead, yeah, because sometimes you also interact with extremists as
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well, who is not the norm But you have extremists who say they hate
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fact that you said, who hate feminism completely, and they say they want
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to go back to the women have no vote, like they want to go
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back to a point where women have no vote and stuff like this, and
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and I think this is a little bit of a outlayer. This is an
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it is an extremist position. Yeah yeah, yeah, but I mean like
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that's another, you know, another one of these conflicts. This is why
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I think it's well, I don't know what if you are looking for my
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perspective, yeah yeah, okay, okay, So I think that there are
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I think that there is room for conversations around like what we want because like
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if the rules are all built by feminism today, which they are, the
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governments and the media and everything. It's in the schools, right, It's
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what it's memis that they're in universities, they're teaching women these things, and
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then women are the majority of our like early childhood teachers and stuff. They
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have a feminist view and they're teaching this two children. They're teaching it's sort
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of this idea that men were oppressive to women and that women are the victims
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of society and somehow this needs to be corrected with feminism. Well, yeah,
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you know, it's it's just it is such a wrong analysis of reality.
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Yes, and it is the only solution that's offered. This is one
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of the reasons why you had feminists invading your women against Feminism space is whether
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they knew it or not. And I think a lot of times women who
20:47
are educated in feminism don't know why they feel this need to protect it,
20:52
but they have a fear that without feminism there's just going to be enslavement because
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they're they are being propag and dies right to believe that if they don't constantly,
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if they if they don't have feminism, they will be slaves. And
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this is good for academic feminists. People in the you know, that make
21:11
money off of this, get a lot of power from this. That's very
21:15
useful to keep women in a state of dependency on feminism instead of dependency on
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you know, like their families, including their husbands, et cetera. So
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this is about replacing men with feminism, which is ultimately the government, and
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it's very effective. So, like what I was going to say is there's
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room for conversations about what we want the world to look like. Without feminism,
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but it's kind of hard to imagine right now because it's all we have.
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So the the I think that the conversations about how we structure our communities
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post feminism, if there is going to be a post feminism, I think,
22:00
do have to happen, and I think it will mean for some very
22:03
uncomfortable conversations with women because women are the ones that are gonna essentially have to
22:10
be the driver of this change. Men have been trying to talk about it,
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but they've been Men have a sympathy gap. People have all sympathy for
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men, so men are not listening to in the same way. And second
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of all, just like you need black people to critique things, like they
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say only black people can speak about this, The point is it is better
22:29
when women speak out because you all are the ones who can critique it without
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being told you don't know what you're talking about. Now, in reality,
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everyone should be able to critique it. And that's nonsense. Like in reality,
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what a man has to say about feminism is with of course, but
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feminists are going to take it and say, you know what, you're just
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saying that because you're a man, you don't know what you're talking about but
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they can't tell that to women. So it is important for women to speak
22:59
out. And I have to say the amounts of fair that was that we
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witnessed in the eyes of feminism in the other families. One woman against feminism
23:07
was viral. It was because we were women. That is why they were
23:11
so afraid of us, you know. Yeah, and and also but they're
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but they're becoming more aggressive where you can't play the woman card with them as
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much because don't just tell you you're not really a woman, or you're we're
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privileged, yes, yes, exactly, they say you're a privileged woman.
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You just don't know because you're a privileged you know what we say they always,
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always, always sexual assault. We've been sexually assaulted, the men are
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sexually assaulting us. We're being you know, and then we say stuff like,
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hey, you know, the men in our lives have have protected us,
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have have not? You know, we haven't had that experience. So
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this is not something that's happening to every single woman. You know, if
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I say something like that your privilege, yeah you haven't been sexually assaulted,
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it's because your privileged. You should shut up. They just try to make
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you feel bad and it's like, okay, okay, I'm privileged, but
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you know, you they just want to invalidate anything that you could see.
24:11
Yeah, yeah, are you American by any chance? An accent? But
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where? Okay? Where are you? Where are you from? Where you
24:19
I'm from the Caribbean, but I currently live in Europe. Oh Europe?
24:23
Okay, like the UK or like uh I mean, oh okay, okay,
24:29
Belgium. Yeah, but I'm you know, I'm I am settled here
24:33
in Belgium. But before now I was always moving around. So it's very
24:37
happened. Yeah see, oh I see, so this is where you are
24:41
now. I was bringing it up because I don't know if you're aware of
24:47
what is happening in our country politically involving women in the United States here,
24:52
so recently there was a ruling and I want to know what your thoughts are
24:56
on it, because I think this is like one of the very very hot
25:00
button issues for women in particular, or at least for a certain type of
25:03
women, where they well, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade.
25:11
Have you heard about this? You know what Roe v. Wade is,
25:14
and we actually somehow it's still it applies also in the Caribbean because we use
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it. Oh sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well I
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know, yeah, my family's from the Caribbean too, so yeah, so
25:27
yeah. So this has become a very serious, like a very big issue,
25:33
and the truth of it is is that it's it's better law. Now.
25:37
It was always bad law in the past, but because of I think,
25:41
you know, ginocentric the ginocentric political system, politicians, judges, et
25:48
cetera. They they didn't want to touch Roe v. Wade even though it
25:52
was it was again it was bad law and a bad premise. And the
25:55
way that it should be done is that it should be done through the states.
25:59
So each state, because how it was always supposed to be, has
26:02
its own government and their own laws, and then the federal government protects,
26:07
like, you know, the very basic rights. And feminists were very upset
26:11
about this, and they got women really upset about this. Now, I'm
26:15
not trying to make this into a conversation about whether or not your pro life
26:19
or pro choice, because that's not really what's important. The point is is
26:22
that you know, the these services are still available, they're just not federally
26:30
protected by bad law. They're basically like in a law that makes more sense.
26:34
That is more in line with like, you know what is correct,
26:38
and if you know if your state has limitations, then you know you may
26:45
have to like reconsider where you live. I don't know, and just go
26:48
to the state or something. But the United States is a big place,
26:51
and it's again, most states aren't even going to change anything anyway the way
26:55
that they do things. But but feminists got women so angry about it that
27:00
they threaten to use their votes to destroy the country. And because women are
27:07
the majority of voters and they're also more likely to go out and vote,
27:11
they might actually realize this. And so I was wondering what your thoughts were
27:18
on that. Like, Okay, so I think that the major thing is
27:22
always always going to be with respect to the wholer bush and thing is that
27:26
men have no reproductive rights. Okay. Feminists claim that they want equality.
27:33
Right, every time you argue with a feminist, they say, it's just
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equality. We want equality, We want equality with men. Let's look at
27:41
male reproductive rights. Men are not allowed to give up someone for a bush,
27:48
I mean for adoption, right, So what women are if you are
27:53
if you beth a child, you can give this child up for adoption.
27:56
You can say that you don't want to do anything with this child, you
27:59
get give up your child. Men don't have the right to walk away.
28:03
If you get pregnant. You can while in theory this is what we're discussing,
28:07
but in theory you can go somewhere to abort the child without a problem.
28:11
This should be I think, because I'm kind of porchoice. Yes,
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okay, so, but the problem is the problem is that men don't have
28:22
any sort of right. So my issue with feminist is not that they're extremely
28:26
pro choice. If they want to do that, you can do that,
28:27
fine, be por choice, but be por choice for both, because that
28:32
is what equality is. As it is, a man could be raped and
28:36
still have to pay child support for eighteen years. So the situation for men
28:41
with reproductive rights is really not ideal. In addition to which I know that
28:47
this is default of science, but men don't have a pay yet, you
28:51
know, so it makes it even worse. They do not have control over
28:56
their reproduction because they don't have a pill, and they have no rights once
29:00
that child is in the woman's body, and they cannot give up the child,
29:04
while women have every step of the way. We have a choice.
29:08
We can use a pill, we can use hormones, we can use all
29:11
sorts of preventative methods. Right, if something happens, we have morning after
29:17
pills, we have you know, we have all sorts of options within the
29:22
very early stage. If we don't notice within the very early stage, then
29:26
we can go somewhere to get an abortion. As sad as it is,
29:30
and I understand it's something sad, but your point is that usually the option
29:34
is there. Okay, that all happened that we still don't want to try.
29:38
We have a child that's a baby, and we absolutely don't want to
29:41
try. We can go and give that child up and relinquish all our parental
29:47
duties after the child is born. Yep, Okay, men cannot They have
29:55
nothing like that. They have nothing like that. The only thing a man
29:57
can do is get a said to me, but this is this is the
30:02
real that's it. What else can men do in condoms? Okay? You
30:07
know, well yeah, sure, but I mean even then women, you
30:11
know, they sperm jack and these things, right, And the point is
30:17
that, So the point is and men are still they still have to of
30:21
course, I mean they will be having this is we we are in the
30:25
way in which society is today. We we are happy that we have both
30:29
control and things, and therefore we want to enjoy that modern stuff. So
30:33
they're going to be having sex with women when they don't want to have children
30:38
and what they have no choices. So I mean, anytime you talk about
30:45
the the pro choice that it is not even about pro choice or pro life.
30:49
Actually the poor life people make more sense from that perspective because at least
30:53
they want equality, you know, at least they're like, well, I'm
30:57
pro life. No one should be able to get out of this right.
31:02
But I mean, while they don't, you know. But the point is
31:04
women have so many options. Then families say that they are for equality and
31:08
then they slap us in the face by by not caring about male things.
31:15
They should be out there campaigning every time they make an abortion sign, they
31:19
should be making a men opt out sign because that is equality. You understand,
31:25
Equality between the genders is caring about the boats. So every single abortion
31:30
signed that they make, they need to make a sign for men to be
31:33
able to give up their their parental duties and responsibilities, because that is what
31:37
they're arguing for women, and that is what women have gotten. Women are
31:41
in a state and time where we can give up our parental duties as we
31:47
wish, and men can't. They can't. Yeah. Yeah, so you've
31:55
been doing this for a while. Now, when did you What year did
31:57
you start this whole thing? I haven't been doing it for a while,
32:01
to be honest, I okay, what did I start being an anti faminist
32:05
in terms of blogging. Probably around twenty ten, that's still pretty that's a
32:10
long time. No, no, But then then I stopped, you know,
32:14
and then you stopped. Yeah, after the whole Woman Against I came
32:16
out of anti feminism completely. So and I'm now trying to get back in.
32:22
Oh yeah, but I mean, I guess what I'm saying is is
32:24
that your beliefs started. Okay, sure, from the first second that I
32:29
heard about feminism, I was like, what nonsense? Okay, okay,
32:35
I've never been a feminist, so that one. Yeah, okay, so
32:37
never okay, So I mean you were I did when I did leave Women
32:42
Against Feminism. At this point, I did have the feeling that maybe I
32:45
was wrong about stuff, but not to the extent that I would say I
32:50
was a feminist, not at all. I was just like Okay, maybe
32:52
feminists have some like maybe we should give them a bit more credit with some
32:57
things, because like everything, it was getting very very conservative, you know,
33:01
and it was maybe a bit too conservative for me. So I was
33:05
like, okay, maybe, you know, but not to the point where
33:07
I would think I was a feminist, just to the point where I was
33:09
like, okay, maybe they have some small points here. Well we could
33:14
get into that. I was wondering because you know, you were talking about
33:19
how the groups the group kind of splintered into little subgroups that were, you
33:23
know, their own little camps, and some of them did better than others
33:25
and all this, and so what I was and you mentioned, uh,
33:30
Natoya Natty, who I was friends with or I consider myself still her friend.
33:36
You know, she's changed drastically, like she used to make the women
33:38
fighting feminism and now she's like very very very conservative, a little bit yeah
33:44
feminist conservative, but yes, you're right. And so what I'm thinking about
33:49
is is that, like do you feel that you have changed since you you
33:52
mentioned it in a way, but like in what ways do you think you
33:54
have you have changed? Like what are your where do you think you change
33:59
them? So I have changed, but not fundamentally, And I think that's
34:01
the same for the other girl who I said, who was more like with
34:06
the group of people who were concerned about birth rates and things. She said
34:09
she changed to the extent where she doesn't want to be involved in anti feminism
34:13
or anything negative, but fundamentally she still has the same beliefs, and I
34:16
think I'm similar in that. So she's more of a pro she's more of
34:21
a pro natalist, like pro family, pro reproduction, about reproduction. Yes,
34:27
she feels that she's worried about reproduction and she feels you know that,
34:30
Yeah, I guess, yeah, poor family, poor men and women from
34:34
that perspective. Yeah, And I think often these people are called nationalists,
34:38
but that's just a mean thing because they're not all racist or whatever. But
34:43
you know, the nationalists, I mean they call that. They like to
34:46
associate them with that. You know, anytime people want to have children,
34:51
then they claim this nationalists. Yeah, well that you know, that shows
34:54
a tactic they use to shame people into not reproducing so so they can practice
35:00
eugenics. And I'm a little bit more worried about eugenesis and nationalists, but
35:05
that's no well for me, Like I said, where I started my first
35:09
first when I was blogging the Navy blog was called circular traditionalist. So I
35:15
was very traditionalist, but not very in that I always was pro LGBTQ stuff
35:20
and stuff like that, so I wasn't ever you know, like there,
35:23
But I was more traditionalist in that I was very concerned with proving why.
35:29
I was concerned with linking tradition with nature because like, I'm not religious,
35:36
but I think that like religious not religious, like in terms of God.
35:40
But I think that let's say, you could say God is nature. I
35:44
mean it is nature in that sense. I think that nature is that it
35:46
is and we don't have much control over. Okay, that's not I'm not
35:52
explaining it. Well. I think that the structures of society are influenced by
35:57
nature, and that women and and have certain natures if you want, you
36:02
could say, or instincts or whatever more like eary ur right? So I
36:07
think that. So I was more concerned with Lincoln like evolutionary stuff to why
36:13
we live in a society that looks the way it does. So I mean,
36:19
in a sense, I am blaming nature rather than men. So I'm
36:22
trying to tell feminists please stop blaming men for patriarchy. Please understand that this
36:29
is something that comes directly from nature. No one had a choice, not
36:32
men, not women, not children, not birds, not bees. You
36:36
know, nobody had a choice over the structure of society. This is what
36:39
nature sort of choice for us, because this was the model that produced most
36:45
children during harsh times or whatever. Right, So I'm just trying to tell
36:50
feminists that they have placed the blame for the societal structure on men, and
36:55
this is ridiculous. So I was more concerned with that, and I called
37:00
myself the secular traditionalist also because in terms of bias, of course I do
37:07
live. I did. I am a traditionalist in that sense. I'm a
37:09
housewife, I I but I don't believe in not working. Even as a
37:15
house wife. I started my own business. I so, I you know,
37:22
I lived in a house with a shop below. I started my own
37:23
shop. So I don't believe that like women have I don't. I don't.
37:29
I'm not this nineteen Yeah, I don't think women. I think women
37:32
have always worked, so me. Yeah, like, so it doesn't like
37:36
this idea that women, no women should we just stay at the home.
37:40
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it is. I think women have always
37:44
do. I hate one. People always think that, you know, the
37:47
traditional women just think somebody should stay women baked cakes all day for her husband.
37:52
It's not like that. It's like historically what happened is that we had
37:57
farms and the women were working part time on the farms. Then she had
38:01
kids, she did mandy home and he did many farm. Whenever she could
38:06
help, she helped on the farm. When the kids got older, she
38:08
helped on the farm. So I must see it like that. And then
38:12
with businesses and stuff, it's the same. The husband. They've always yeah,
38:15
they've always had them. Even before before women suffrage, women worked,
38:20
women owned land, women started businesses, they did cottage industries, even if
38:23
they didn't live on farms. If they lived in cities, let's say,
38:28
when the cities were starting and during the Industrial Revolution, women would work in
38:32
and around the home. It wasn't just like being a housewife. At one
38:36
time, the work in the home had monetary value, whereas today it is
38:39
different in that you know, we have like we have watched today women do
38:45
the same things they did when they were at home, but now they get
38:49
taxed for it and they do it for somebody else, right, So they
38:52
go work, and there they go work as a teacher or as a daycare
38:59
person or in nursing or whatever. They do a lot of the same jobs
39:04
that they would have done in and around the home, but now the government
39:07
can tax them for it. So for me, yeah, and I see
39:10
it as the the the situation changed, as in, like in the home
39:15
got easier because we have all this technology, so there was more time created.
39:21
The situation changed. So now women will be working outside. I have
39:23
no problem with that. Women will work outside. But I am not defining
39:29
traditional like just a woman being at home. I'm saying you could be a
39:32
traditional woman woman and have a job. It's not a problem. It's just
39:37
traditional women take more of the child care and they their their career suffers for
39:43
that, whereas men one more of the the other whole, which is the
39:47
outside. And that's how it is. And so I consider myself to be
39:52
a child wife, you know. And and yeah, because I did take
39:58
a hit in terms of prioritize my career because I have kids, I prioritize
40:02
being at home and whatever career I would have has to be around them,
40:07
you know. And that to me is traditional. It's what women have been
40:13
doing for all of history. The fact that he may have some nineteen fifties
40:17
upper class woman who did something different does not make it that that is traditional.
40:24
You know, tradition, right, So for me, I was a
40:29
traditionalist, and my idea was that traditionalism, this relationship between men and women,
40:35
how the traits sort of describes it, despite the fact that I'm not
40:37
religious, is something that sort of comes out of nature. It speaks,
40:44
It speaks to human nature. It works with human nature as much as possible,
40:49
because human nature is so complex. Many systems work, but this one
40:52
is one that has been successful during harsh times and that is why we have
40:58
it. So I sort of adopt it and I have no problem with it.
41:02
So I was like this, But then, of course, I mean,
41:07
if you look at where I guess I got more open minded in this
41:10
sense that I can't talk about it in good faith much anymore because I know
41:15
that it hurts people, and that is complex. You know that maybe it's
41:20
not so simple because you know people have this. I mean, you can
41:24
argue that, but then it gets more complicated when you're dealing with real people
41:30
who have real situations, who who it won't align with, and the reality
41:35
is that of course I have those beliefs because it fits with my lifestyle.
41:39
It's because by chance, I happen to be in this situation and it works
41:44
for me. So it's not something that will work for everyone or you know,
41:50
yeah, yeah, yes, John, I totally get it. So
41:54
we're talking about I noticed that while we're discussing this, like this, this
42:00
term you know, traditionalist keeps coming up, and what I what? I
42:05
I find it interesting because it's it's like we're trying to put it in a
42:12
category that is kind of separate from another arrangement. But I don't know what
42:19
another arrangement would be other than something that's a bit more. I guess feminists
42:23
approved, like okay, like staying single, uh you know, your whole
42:30
life. Well, I'm just wondering because like most women and most men want
42:35
to find a partner and they want to start a relationship. You don't want
42:38
that the women depend on the men's right. But yeah, yes, But
42:44
but like let's set aside what feminists think because or what they want, because
42:47
it's it isn't what most people want. Most men want to find a good
42:52
woman, most women want to find a good man. That's that's the reality.
42:55
Now, how that plays out in our modern society is I think where
43:01
we get into some messy stuff, like the ways that feminism has affected,
43:07
you know, women's expectations of men, the way that that has affected the
43:12
dating market, the way that it's affected men as a consequence that can't and
43:15
also the fact that women have entered, you know, into the workforce and
43:20
mass, and they've been sort of promoted promoting this sort of materialistic worldview,
43:27
like you know, women are being told that they should that they're to be
43:32
a good to have a good life, means to pursue, you know,
43:36
like a very ambitious career, make as much money as possible, wait until
43:42
you're in your thirties to have kids, right, And then they'll wait,
43:45
and then they'll they'll realize that, you know, maybe they can't have children
43:50
or they can only have like one child. And this is where you get
43:52
into the birth rate thing. So without taking a side on any of these
43:55
other sort of subgroups, I'm thinking about what what do we call a an
44:04
arrangement that is best for men and women? Obviously on a case by case
44:07
basis, but let's say in broad strokes, you know, for the sake
44:10
of broad strokes, because not all men want to get married, not all
44:14
women want to get married, but but most do. Okay, so how
44:17
do yeah? Yeah, so my idea. It was also at some point
44:22
like like you said, the word traditionalism, it is just a guide.
44:27
It's not it's not like you can't take it so seriously to say that everyone
44:30
will do it. No, no, no, it's just that you know,
44:34
society probably had some whispers and some guides to Okay, this works for
44:38
the ancestors. You know, this it worked, you know, if you
44:44
if you think about it, the idea that you know, what we call
44:46
traditionalism. This is why I hesitate to use the word, because I think
44:52
it's just normal, Like there's just normal, and then there's abnormal. Right,
44:57
it has been, it has it has. They try to associate it
45:01
with this sort of extreme you know, caricature of our Yeah, a woman
45:07
chained to the soul, pregnant and making sandwiches. Yes, but she has
45:10
no other life except and then they want to think that submit means she does
45:15
this, yes, master, yes, yes exactly, And so you get
45:19
into this. This is why I'm bringing it up, and I'm glad that
45:21
you're noticing you're you're picking up. What I'm putting down is that this idea
45:25
of traditionalism is so tainted because because of propaganda from feminists and women are you
45:34
know, they're made to be very afraid of this as like a negative consequence,
45:37
right, because they're like, oh, no, if we let the
45:42
men think that, you know, then then then they'll just think that we
45:45
want to submit and be beaten all day, you know, And it's like,
45:47
no, actually, you know, this is a guide. It's something
45:52
that you know, it's and I think it speaks to our nature. To
45:57
be honest, if I think, I think that men and women are not
46:01
identical when it comes to their sexualities, and when it comes to this core
46:07
of what makes you a man and what makes you a woman, I think
46:09
we have very different instincts in terms of our sexual sexuality. Right. I
46:15
think that in terms of women's nature, women want to submit that. I
46:22
know that's a bold thing to say, but I do think that women want
46:27
to find men who they can submit to. And I don't know, I
46:30
won't go so far to say that men want to know. Men don't want
46:35
I don't think men want that, but men want to protect. And so
46:40
I think with this setup, with us having this sort of nature where men
46:45
seek to protect women seek to be protected, to be that that this is
46:51
what you know, religious society based their advice just that fight doesn't mean you
46:57
have to do it. Yeah, And I understand the tradition of the past
47:02
took it really far and they were bad and they made everybody do it.
47:07
I understand that maybe, But I think I think that's another thing though,
47:12
this idea that if we put it in perspective, because you're talking about evolution
47:17
and how things have changed. Right, what we call traditionalism today was the
47:23
norm for like most of our history, like all the way up until what
47:28
the mid twentieth century, maybe like traditional you know, marriages with children,
47:34
living on farms, monogamy, all of that. That's me with all it
47:38
is we're talking about here is just monogamy where children, women take more care
47:43
of children and then do a little bit more with providing. You have a
47:47
certain division of rules where because their children and she's busy with them, he's
47:52
going to be providing within this. That's all it is. There's nothing else
47:57
really, Yeah, and for most and most of our history, that's all
48:00
it was until very recently, so we have this. This whole idea of
48:07
a non traditionalist organization or relationship arrangement is very very recent. In fact,
48:15
even dating is really recent if you think about it, because for most of
48:20
history, you only knew the people that were in your community, and so
48:23
you like, the girl you would meet would be someone who went you know,
48:27
who lived in your community. Maybe she was it was between families.
48:31
I'm not saying we should go back to that. I'm just saying that arranged
48:36
relationships, whether it was intentional or incidental, because of just because of geography,
48:43
that is like most of our history. So everything that we're dealing with
48:46
now is very very very very new, and we don't know what the consequences
48:52
of this is going to be. And I think that it is why there
48:54
is so much there's so many problems in the dating market where women are.
49:00
So I have theories on that as well, say theories, not that I
49:06
think it's yeah, let's hear, let's hear theories. So that's okay,
49:08
Like we shouldn't be ashamed to like speculate, So go ahead, this is
49:13
pure speculation, girls, speculation. So I think that what happens is that
49:19
during very harsh times, women need men of course, right, we need
49:22
community, we need each other. Everybody has to pull together. There's no
49:27
money, there's no resources, there are no resources or whatever. Women need
49:30
men, and so I think during times of low resources, humans tend to
49:37
gravitate to something more like what we're talking about is traditionalism. However, during
49:42
times of abundance, when we have a lot of resources and women no longer
49:46
need men, the structure of society drastically changes into a certain type of society.
49:53
And I no, and I believe that I've seen this type of society
50:00
coming from the Caribbean, coming from posting right. So, and I think
50:05
it is similar to what let's Amras and the manuspect might describe when they talk
50:08
about a society where only a few men get a lot of women and most
50:15
women remain single and they, yeah, there's a lot of promiscuity they have,
50:23
Yeah, and there's a large pool of men who get left out of
50:28
reproduction. So I think that the structure of society during times of abundance leaves
50:34
a lot of men out of the genetic pool. And this is just speculation,
50:38
And the speculation would be that it is because during times of abundance of
50:45
resources in a sense, we are genetically getting rid of certain genetics. So
50:50
it's right, so nature sort of prioritizes the genetics, whereas during times of
50:59
really then you prioritize the numbers because numbers become more important for survival. So
51:06
I think there's two sort of things that happen. Where are you going to
51:08
look at the third world, for example, where where they don't have a
51:12
lot of resources, but they're having a lot of children, right right,
51:15
So the numbers become more important when you have those resources. But something like
51:21
this, you know, it's not all you know, but I so my
51:23
idea is that yes, a feminist world could work the structure that they want
51:29
with single women, and these single women will probably be sleeping with and having
51:34
children for the same wealthy men. This is possible and it absolutely can work.
51:38
I don't think it will happen because globalization probably chose some different things in
51:44
there that that nature wasn't, you know, So we have to we have
51:46
to cater for certain things with globalization, and that men do have a choice
51:51
to get women from other cultures if they want. But at the same time,
51:54
I think that this structure can and does work in situations where you have
51:59
a lot of resources and where women do not need men, and that is
52:02
largely the situation in the West. Abundance of resources, women actually do not
52:07
feel that they need men. Yes, it's feminism can only exist in like
52:15
this level of comfort, right. However, what is also what you have
52:20
to also pay attention to is that this all probably exists, right, but
52:23
there's diversity, So there are always going to be a group of women who
52:29
literally prefer monogamy and men as well who just prefer monogamy monogamy and prefer that
52:35
set up. And this is why, you know. So what I'm what
52:38
I get that, if I'm to take my speculation seriously, is that the
52:43
only thing that would push us really back to traditional society would be a reduction
52:46
in resources. So if we become poorer, then we will be pushed back
52:51
to traditionalism. But at the same time, there will always be traditional men
52:57
and women within society and have to respect that. Yes, so I hope
53:05
that they can respect that because we are a part of society, and I
53:08
think we're an important part of society. You know, we have we have
53:13
a function in terms of diversity, and we exist and the need to stop
53:17
saying that we don't exist. That is the problem. I mean, yeah,
53:21
I'm not gonna say that traditionalism can't work for should be the thing for
53:24
all women. But I'm going to say that appeals to me, and I'm
53:28
pretty sure that there are tons of women out there who that appeals to us.
53:30
Well, I speak to these women. So can we please respect that
53:35
and make it a part of being okay? Yeah, yeah, again,
53:42
I don't think it's about what women want. I think feminism is only interested
53:45
in itself, perpetuating itself, in the need for itself, which is why
53:50
they have to constantly come up with a new crisis that only feminism can solve
53:54
and propagandize women into into a state of fear and paralysis. It is successful,
54:00
you know, because you asked, like how long I've been into this,
54:04
Like when we were back in the day, you know, ten years
54:07
ago, it was something like only twenty percent of women said they were feminists.
54:12
Now fifty percent mm hmm. Yeah, because they're they're they're being conditioned.
54:16
Is it is very successful. And of course there is the academia and
54:22
all of the propaganda, and they saw, yeah, they're always changing the
54:24
meanings of words and such. The definition to say that once you're for equality,
54:30
then yes, you must be a feminist. Fifty percent of women say
54:35
they're for equality, so they might be a feminist, but feminism is not
54:40
equality, So I don't know. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So
54:45
I wanted to point out something you were talking about, how this is only
54:49
possible in a time of great abundance, and I wanted to mention that isn't
54:52
it really ironic that the only reason why we have all of this abundance is
54:58
because of what men have done. Of course, feminists are constant. They
55:04
talent me that I'm standing on the back of feminists who died for my rights,
55:07
who died for my right to vote and my right to be on YouTube
55:13
and my right to do And I'm always like, hello, who's back with
55:16
feminists standing on the feminists you're talking about who's back that they standing on?
55:22
Who's back is feminism standing on? And they're not the back of men primarily,
55:28
but it's also standing on the back of traditional society. So you telling
55:34
me that I can't critique your feminism, It's like me and back in the
55:37
day talent feminists they can't critique traditionalism because they wouldn't be allowed to be feminist
55:42
if traditional society didn't provide for them. Of course, traditional society created abundance,
55:47
and it created so much abundance that they were able to create feminists.
55:52
You understand, But feminists are stand they're not the backs of traditional society.
55:55
And everyone, of course is standing on the backs of men. But we
56:00
used to admit it. And this is the this is the sick thing about
56:01
feminism, because they refuse to give men credits. They just refuse. It's
56:06
like nope, nope, no, no, no, I'm not gonna give
56:08
him credit. But anything he did and it is like, yeah, but
56:12
you know he did that, They did that, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:15
It's definitely an issue of feminists ability to only live in the present moment
56:22
and not look look back at history unless they want to take credit for something
56:28
that they didn't do. Like whatever, women do something good, it's because
56:32
of feminism made that possible, no matter what, like no matter and most
56:36
of the time, the successful doctrinate you with this. You couldn't vote,
56:39
you couldn't open a bank acount, you couldn't do this, you couldn't they
56:44
never they only mentioned They just cherry pick, They completely cherry pick. They
56:49
only mentioned they don't mention what men couldn't do. Yeah, and they throw
56:52
in a bunch of things that you couldn't do that was not even stuff that
56:57
anyone wants to do. I mean sometimes they even say, you couldn't go
57:00
to war, and you couldn't you know, it's like what if somebody once
57:04
said women complaining that they can't go to wars like white people complaining that they
57:08
didn't get to be slaves. You know, it's it's like, you know,
57:13
you couldn't go to war, I couldn't go to war? Yeah,
57:16
yeah, yeah, what is you know? They they they are crazy.
57:22
Yeah, yeah, they are men. They are men, and a lot
57:27
of fueled A lot of it is fueled by the fact that feminists get recruits.
57:35
They recruit members because they have bad relationships. When when women have a
57:43
have a bad experience with men because of relationship issues, then yeah, mm
57:47
hmm, I was gonna mention. Okay, so we only got about five
57:53
minutes left before I get to go into the Patron show. So first of
57:57
all, is there anything else you wanted to there? Anything else you wanted
58:00
to run by me or tell the audience about what you're doing or what you're
58:07
trying to do well. If any women are listening, I really would like
58:10
to interview you on the Woman Against Feminism channel. Please and if you'll city
58:16
link anywhere, please click on it and subscribe and show me some support,
58:20
because we really non feminists are the majority. Even though it doesn't seem like
58:24
this, we're still the majority right now, and I think if we don't
58:28
speak up, we will become a minority. Okay. I think non feminist
58:32
people need to speak up before it's too late and basically give other people confidence
58:39
to acknowledge that things aren't right and that feminism is not right, because there
58:45
are a lot of people who think things and then they're just like, okay,
58:49
but you know, everybody else goes along with this. Maybe it's right
58:51
and they don't want to question it. But we need to gain the confidence
58:53
to question things, to question feminism and to question everything that they're saying.
58:59
And yeah, so I would I just really hope that you could support women
59:02
and femism. It's important for women to speak out, it's also important for
59:06
men to speak out. Non feminist people in general just need to speak out,
59:09
you know, yeah, for sure. And I put all your links
59:13
in the description of this video so you guys can give her a shout out
59:17
and follow her channel. So yeah, I appreciate that. And I wanted
59:22
to mention one other thing before we go into the patient show. So you
59:25
said the thing that let me let me ask it again, just so I
59:30
don't get it wrong. What was the thing that you said women want from
59:35
men, like generally that they want for men to feel safe? Is that
59:38
what it is? I think on a section to submit no, no,
59:43
no in general in general, like just you know, there's this popular sort
59:47
of notion now the menority protectors and the providers, you know, this is
59:52
what they say men are supposed to do. And I think that this is
59:54
really unfair to men. I do get it that that's really unfair because is
1:00:00
not so simple, and it's it puts a lot of pressure and men.
1:00:02
So I don't want to say stuff like that to make men feel like they
1:00:07
have pressure to you know, but I can say, as a heterosexual female
1:00:12
or whatever, I do believe that the distinction that what women crave from men
1:00:20
is a feeling of safety and they like we yeah, it's it's sounds stupid,
1:00:27
but I genuinely believe women crave to submit to men. This is what
1:00:30
women I mean if you look at Romance movies, h or Mark movies.
1:00:35
I recently discovered. God, it would be too long, you said,
1:00:37
we only have five minutes, but yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll talk
1:00:42
about it more in the Patron Show. With the Patron, so, I
1:00:45
wanted to say the one thing that I think that men want from women,
1:00:47
And a lot of people think it's like sex or whatever, but I think
1:00:51
ultimately men want women to bring them peace. That's what I think. I
1:00:59
think they want to bring them They want women to bring them peace. And
1:01:01
I think that feminism makes women hostile, very aggressive. They treat it there
1:01:07
and I think that this is the thing that frustrates a lot of men.
1:01:10
So anyway, we'll talk more about it. Like this is just kind of
1:01:14
like a little thing, but we'll talk more about it in the Patron Show.
1:01:16
I'm going to head into there now. So if you guys want to
1:01:20
join us in the Patron Show, you have to become a Badgery yourself by
1:01:22
going to feed the Badger dot com and forward slash subscribe so that you can
1:01:27
jump into the Patron Show. You'll get a link to the YouTube video which
1:01:30
is unlisted, so you can continue watching and if you give it a higher
1:01:34
level, you can even join the zoom call, which is what I'm in
1:01:37
right now, and talk to Johanna yourself. So that is feed Thebadger dot
1:01:42
com for slash subscribe. Hopefully I will see you all there. So with
1:01:45
that said, first of all, Johna, thank you so much for coming
1:01:49
on. Thanks talking to us. Really appreciate it. I thought it was
1:01:52
a great conversation. We're going to continue it for another hour. So if
1:01:58
you guys like this video, please hit like subscribe. If you don't already
1:02:00
subscribe, hit the bell notifications, leave us the comment, let us know
1:02:04
what you guys think about what we discussed on the show today. And please
1:02:07
please please share this video because sharing is caring. Check out all of her
1:02:12
links in description so you can follow her on her socials and we will talk
1:02:15
to you all in the next video. Men's Rite Activist are machines, dude.
1:02:21
Okay, they are literal machines. They are talking point machines. They
1:02:25
are impossible to fucking deal with, especially if you have like especially if you
1:02:29
have like a couple of dudes who have good memory. On top of that
1:02:31
too, holy shit, you're fucked,