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Michelle Travis - The Evolution of Dad's Enabling Fearless Daughters · Quarterback DadCast | Intentional Fatherhood & Leadership at Home

• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Hi, I'm.
• 0:04
  Speaker 3: Riley and I'm Ryder and this is my Dad's Show.
• 0:06
  Speaker 3: Hey everybody, it's Casey Jaycox with the quarterback Dad Cast, and welcome to season 5.
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: And before we get to today's episode and a quick message, I wanted to say thank you so much to Assam and team up at Latitude Sitka or Latitude 57.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: You guys have been just a fantastic partner.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: I want to say thank you so much for your sponsorship, your support and ways to spread the message to other dads out there how we're trying to improve the leadership skills in the homes of many families across the world.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: With that said, I want to let you know there's going to be some new sponsors being added to the podcast, and I also wanted to highlight what's going to happen in the month of February, which is the first ever women to join the quarterback Dad Cast.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: Everybody yes, you heard that right.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: They're going to have the very first women ever to join me on my show.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: For the next four weeks, you're going to hear from some fantastic women supporting dads and you're going to learn about some perspective, but, more importantly, you're going to be educated, and I want to say I'm so excited for these women who are going to be coming on.
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: So with that, let's get right to today's episode.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: Hey everybody, it's Casey Jaycox with the quarterback, dad Cast.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: We are in season 5 and, as you've heard me talk about this fantastic month, we are continuing on this journey of interviewing women for the first time on this podcast, and we're bringing in another fantastically talented woman to join the podcast.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: Her name is Michelle Travis.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: She's the professor of law at the School of Law at University of San Francisco.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: She is a contributing writer for Forbes.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: She's written a fantastic article around men and allyship and leaning in a paternity leaf, which is something you should check out.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: We'll link that in the show notes.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: She is an author of Dads for Daughters.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: We'll learn more about that.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: She's also a board member of Fathering Together We'll learn about that.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: But, more importantly, we're going to learn how her parents shaped her.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: We're going to learn about her perspective of fatherhood and how dads can learn from her to become that ultimate, or better quarterback or leader of their home.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: So, without further ado, michelle Travis, welcome to the quarterback, dad Cast.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you, casey.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: I'm so delighted to be here, so happy to have a chance to have conversations with all of these dedicated dads.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Y'all are doing such important work, so I feel really honored to be here.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate you actually saying yes, because when I first started researching like okay, which women should I have on this podcast?
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: And little I searched and then all of a sudden I saw the work you're doing, I'm like, ooh, she seems like a that'd be a fun person to interview and you're kind enough to respond.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: So if you don't, I guess, if I don't have the curiosity to research and you don't have the, the, the just genuineness and being nice to say, yeah, hey, this guy doesn't seem like a, he's got a screw loose.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: We're going to give him a chance and so thank you for for letting us spend some time together today.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate your, your, your curiosity that brought you to me and my book, and it's the same thing that brought me to thinking about the importance of dads dads as caregivers, fatherhood so I love that we get a chance to learn from each other.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: It'll be fun, and so we eat.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: We start each episode on this podcast with gratitude.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: So tell me, what are you most grateful for?
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: Maybe two parts as a mom today, but also, what are you most grateful for your dad?
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Well, as a mom today, I would say the thing that I am most grateful for right now something that I think dads of teenagers can certainly relate to and it's actually something that initially made me sad, but I'm I'm getting to gratitude around it which is that my oldest daughter, who's a high school senior, has, I think, pretty much decided that she no longer needs me anymore, which is hard but, you know, somewhere along the line, casey, someone gave me the best advice about parenting teenagers and they said just remember that the goal with teenagers is to actually get them to fire you as their manager and to have them rehire you as a consultant.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: And I thought what great advice.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: It helps me get through this period of time where I'm definitely in the firing stage but she's reaching out for the occasional consult.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: So sad, but very grateful, because it definitely feels like my husband and I are doing something right to see her independent and growing and moving.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: So that's my current gratitude as a mom.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: As a daughter, I will say my gratitude is around something we just mentioned, which is curiosity.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: My dad is perhaps the most curious person I've ever met, is interested in everything.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: He regularly sends me articles that he has read on topics that every topic you can imagine, and I used to find it sort of funny and humorous.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: And now I just eat it up.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: And all of a sudden I heard myself saying to my daughters the other day I read this article about, I read this article about.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: They just rolled their eyes and I thought now, someday you're going to appreciate this desire to know something about everything.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: And I got it from my dad, for sure, and he got it from his dad, my grandfather.
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: So cool.
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: Lifelong learner.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: I love your pops.
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: He's a curious dude Joining team.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: Curious.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: I am grateful.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: Today it's game week I'm reporting.
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: In.
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: The week of February 6th it's game week my daughter's high school basketball team's in the high school district playoffs.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: We got to.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: She got a game Friday night.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: So when this episode goes live, hopefully we're talking about a W and they're going to keep playing in the and get to the state tournament in the final, like final eight, which is in this place called Tacoma Dome, which is there have been their goal all year long.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: So I'm hopeful that.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: But I'm also grateful for my son.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: Sometimes you got to listen to your body when you're tired.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: Like he got home.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: He gets home like an hour earlier because he doesn't have the last period, because he's a senior too, and right before I recorded him like I'm like hey, dude, what's going on?
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: Hey, welcome, but whatever.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: And so I and then my wife just came in and he's like he's already asleep and just I think he just smoked from, like he had a busy weekend, busy, you know, school and stuff and like I'm just grateful he can just like just chill out sometimes, right, and listen to your body, because we all need to just sometimes take a break and recover.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: And well, good luck to your daughter.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: And yeah, that it's interesting how much we learn from our teams as well.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: I think it's the other way, other direction, but it goes both ways.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, well, bring me inside the Travis Huddle from a football perspective for what you feel comfortable maybe.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: Share a little bit about, maybe, how you and your husband met and then talk about how, talk about what, what both your daughters are up to and what their what, what, what, what their focuses and interests are.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: My husband, richard, is a lawyer.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: We met in law school as two first year law students in a civil procedure class many years ago.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: We had both studied psychology as an undergrad, so my daughters often joke about how challenging it is to have two parents who both think they know psychology and are debaters and lawyers.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: So it makes for a fun dinner time conversation.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: But we've been together, for we're coming up on 27 years, nice Marriage, which is exciting.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Two daughters One is, as I mentioned, a high school senior, one is a sophomore in high school, and so we're just seeing them turn into these incredible adults.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: My younger daughter just got her driver's license, so we now have two driving daughters at the moment, which, as you know, is a big, big step.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's going great.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: Very cool.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: We have exact same age kids, so my daughter's actually a young sophomore.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: She's a September girl, so there's some freshmen who are actually older than her, so she actually won't get her license till next September of her junior year.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, plus trust on doubt Well played.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: Well played, casey, well played.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: But it's funny how we went back and I was like God be nice if we held her back for whatever reason.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: But she was actually so ready she was more ready than my son was at that age.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: And this is just between us, michelle, just us.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: You guys are smarter than us guys.
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: We're the women are smarter than men.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: But don't tell anybody.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: I said that.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: It's my senior.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: It's like I can commit it now.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: I'm like you guys are wired differently and things that like.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: Who was I talking about?
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: Actually, the episode that came out recently was the Mars and Venus conversation and her name is Dr Michelle Watson another Michelle and she was like we're from a different planet and I get it and I'm gonna help you, like speak my language so that you can, it can help us dad.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: So hopefully people got a lot of that episode.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: Okay, so I always like now going back, we're like we're writing the tape and Take, take me back to what was life like growing up for you and and talk about the impact that you're, your mom and specifically your dad, had on you.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Well, my dad recently had his 80th birthday.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: Happy birthday.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very exciting.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: He is a classic baby boomer and I say that in the best sense of the term.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: You know, hard working, loyal, committed he was.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: He's now retired but he was a computer programmer at IBM for some 40 plus years, right, and we just don't see that anymore people staying in the same place For that for their entire career.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: So just hard working, loyal.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: My parents, interestingly, as I'm a gender equality Researcher right as a law professor by day I study gender equality and gender real stereotypes.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: But interesting, my parents had a very Conventional gender roles.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: So my mom was a stay-at-home mom.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: She was definitely in charge of the day-to-day parenting.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: My dad definitely viewed his role, core role, as being a breadwinner, so conventional in that sense.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: But it really worked for us and I didn't realize really until recently in some ways how much my dad in particular was a Gender equality ally for me In his kind of silent, stoic, boomer away.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, he really there was many, many ways.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: I look back and think about how he just empowered me to to Chart my own path and really make me believe that I could, and so I think that's probably my biggest gratitude for him.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: So as you think about a story, I love hearing stories because stories, obviously stories, sell slides.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Don't?
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: I say that a lot, my coaching for the business and sales leaders.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: But so I'm thinking an analytical guy, computer programmer, thinking, I'm thinking some mainframe work, yep, exactly Okay right on, right on.
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: So, as you think back to tell us, how did he empower you?
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Like what?
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Give a story or two.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely Well I.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because I Didn't even realize all the ways in which he had done this until the stories came to me.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: For his 80th birthday, I was asked to do a little video tribute to him and I was asked particularly to do a top 10 Memories of my childhood with my dad.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Such a great exercise for any adult daughter to do, because it just brought up so many things and made me so grateful for things that I had taken for granted in some ways.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: So it was immediately you know, 10 stories.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: I realized every single thing on my list was Basically my dad, empowering me.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: That is my childhood Highlight, real.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: So let me give me some examples.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: So when I was young, I was a competitive gymnast and this is Casey, you know, way back before title Title nine had really made women's sports mainstream, but my dad had been a competitive tennis player in college and so he just knew that that.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: He just thought that was fine.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: Of course, if you want to be an athlete, you be an athlete, and my best memory was Him driving me out to the lumberyard where we bought a bunch of two by fours and learned what a two by four was, and he took me in the backyard and we built a practice balance beam for me so I could practice balance beam in our backyard, and it was sort of the trip to the lumberyard, the, the building, building, all of it, and it was just like, of course, no questions asked, this is what you're interested in, I'll find a way to support you, I'll find a way to make it work.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: So that was one of my favorites.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: We were also a very big board game family, so we played a lot of board games and what I remember most about my dad is he never let me win ever, like that was not a concept.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: So he was competitive.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: He wanted me, empower me to be competitive and sort of teaching a girl at that age that it's fine to be fiercely competitive was such a great lesson and has really stayed with me my entire life.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: And when I, we used to play mahjong was one of our favorite games and you know when I, when I, was able to eke out a victory, he was proud.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: He was proud.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: So that was another one, and then I'll give you my last one, for now Was one of my favorite memories, with my dad just empowering me in various ways without even realizing it at the time, the summer after my senior year in high school, he had encouraged me to apply for an internship at IBM.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: There was some internship set aside for kids of IBM Employees who were going to college and I kind of had no business there because I'm not a tech person, but, you know, encouraged me to apply.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I applied, I got this position and so for an entire summer after my senior year my dad and I got to drive to and from work together every day for that summer and it was so fantastic.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: But the part that was empowering was, you know, you think about this is several decades ago the tech industry was even more male dominated than today, so it's definitely in the minority as we're walking in there and every day.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: You know, my dad never said anything to me, never said anything, you know, to the co-workers.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: He just walked in the door with me like beaming with pride every day and I could tell he was proud without saying a word.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: And that was a power, because it just gave me this belief that I I belonged there right, and it was just this a given for him that if I wanted to be in that space and I was smart and I worked hard, I belonged in that space, and so those are the kinds of things that I look back on and remember, as I now do gender allyship research and work, that there's a lot of subtle ways that dads do this for their daughters just by supporting them to chart their own course, making them believe they belong wherever they want to be, and my dad definitely did that.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Fantastic.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: I love, I'm curious and I had as a curious guy.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: I also focus on being a great listener and so I have to like, oh yeah, I want to ask this question, would do that.
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: And you said one of my favorite words, which is believe, and people can't see it Because it's an audio only podcast, but behind me is a big believe sign Ted lasso theme, but I love that word.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: I learned the power, this word.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: Age 41, a little over about that now.
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, I just got glasses for the first time.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: I'm now that guy.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: I'm down downward spiral, but Believing your, how your dad believed in you, didn't make it about.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: Okay, there's not that many girls here, so don't make a big deal about it.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: He just said let's go and you're, you got the job, you earned it, and let's go and I'll see after.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: We'll see after.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Maybe I'll see at lunch, maybe we'll see afterwards.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: Then have a great day, exactly you know.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: So I shout out your pops for being, I would say maybe ahead of his time back then yes yes, which I think is so cool.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Absolutely tell me.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Where did you, where did you, start to get interest in the research around gender equality?
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: I, you know, I went to law school.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: After law school I landed this incredible gig at a prestigious law firm.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: I was so excited to be in that setting and Even within the first few weeks at this law firm I realized that my belief that I belong there was not necessarily shared by everyone else and I just started noticing the different ways that People viewed me.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: It took several weeks for them to even recognize that I was a new lawyer.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: They, you know, would ask me to go fill the coffee, for example.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: But just sitting in a meeting and having to to fight to get airtime to speak, being interrupted etc.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Made me Sort of just realized that there were still gender inequality out there.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: But again, call out to my dad, because that experience definitely could have undercut my, my confidence, but it didn't, because I just had this, as you said, belief.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Believe that my dad gave me that if you work hard and you know what you're talking about, you know you, believe you, you belong in the room.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Right, you belong in the room.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: So the research really started To focus on gender equality and dads when I found myself Casey has a law professor and I'm speaking all over the country about gender equality in the workplace and why are there no women in the C-suite?
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: And all these gender biases that we see playing out?
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: That I experienced.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: And now now, as a law professor, I decided I was going to research about this and I realized that I was speaking mostly to rooms full of women, and I thought this is, this is not gonna make any progress if we're not having conversations with men.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Right, we need men having conversations about gender, gender equality.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: We need men are in positions of power, so we need them in the room.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: But also we need to learn from men.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: What you know, what is it that's keeping men from taking paternity leave?
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: What are those barriers?
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: What are?
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: How do gender stereotypes limit men?
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: In the same way that we feel limited as a women, right?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: So I did it.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I was like we need to talk to men.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I just really got tired of talking about gender equality to all women, and so that's actually really what started my male allyship work was trying to figure out how do I invite men into conversations about gender Equality so that we can learn from each other.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: It's so, I mean it's.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: That's so simple when you think about it, but so profound, like you had to have.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: And it's funny of me, at this podcast I've interviewed 230 something dads and only at the end of this month will be five women Like, but we're it's.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like I'm having this epiphany that you kind of had is like well, why wouldn't I interview women earlier?
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: It's not that I was against women, I was just like my audience was dads and I want to keep interviewing dads and I still do.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: But now I understand the power of Interviewing women to get perspective, so that us dads can get out of our comfort zone.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: A little bit like whoa, she talks, she thinks that way, I had no idea, or so my, if I do this, my daughter might think that I'm like yeah, and so it's like we want to continue this.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: I would say a growth mindset.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: But I want to go back to your pops real quick, cuz you maybe I forgot to ask some did he cry when he when he did this?
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: he Came the closest to crying.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: I had seen him ever so definitely, you know, boomer, not a crying person, definitely teared up, choked up, and I was lucky enough to be see he lives in Hawaii and I live in California.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: But I surprised him on his 80th birthday and showed up without him knowing I was coming.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: So I got to see the video played for him and it had clips from all bunch of, you know, my siblings and family members, etc.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: And first time I've ever seen him choked up and and and.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Then, and some months later, I got invited to write an article about how my dad impacted me and the ways in which my dad supported gender equality.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: And I wrote this article and sent him the copy of the article and my mom called me and said he's crying.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love it, yeah, and for my dad that is a major thing, and I think both of us also just wished we had had these conversations earlier and thought about and processed this in an explicit way earlier, but I'm glad we did it now.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: So cool I the reason I asked because if my daughter did that for me, I would be a disaster.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: I'd get the story to and be just bawling Like I'm.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Like my kids make fun of me all the time.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: Like, have you ever watched the movie Serendipity?
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: No.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: It's like a great holiday movie.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: Every year it gets me Teri Jeriker and so, like we used to have a dog named Jenny, jenny died.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: Rest in Peace, jenny and we were upstairs in this like in the holiday time and watched the movie and I'm like, oh shoot, here it comes again.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Here comes the sad part.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: It's like it's a happy sad too, because when the happy sad moments hit I think about myself and like my own life and not Serendipity, and I can kind of see the characters.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: But I'm in it.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: And so I kind of felt and I kind of looked out the corner of my eye and I'm like, okay, good, they don't, they don't see.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: I'm about to start crying a little bit.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: And so then I pulled a, I'd like leaned over on the dog to like, like, use your tail to wipe away the tears.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: And all of a sudden, I all of a sudden I hear this.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: Oh, trust me, I have before, but I was like crying not to get busted.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: And all of a sudden I hear this hey, ryder, ryder, look, he's crying again.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: And this bus, my shop, I'm like I don't care kids.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: I said this is who that is, and so owning it.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: Right, exactly Cause I think it's important to and then you were thinking about empowering.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: So, like my daughter and I, our thing is like she shoots, I rebound for her.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: It's our quality time we spend together.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: It's funny like there's things her and my, my wife, do, but she won't ask my wife's carry to rebound.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: She always asked me and you know we'll do certain things.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: I'll get her ideas.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: I kind of let her to kind of drive the workout we'll do, and then I'll say let's do something hard.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: We, you do, we do a drill, or you got to, you know, do a certain like um, this, like drill, you make like 20, this like it's called the mic, and drill 20 lanes in a row and then you're kind of a little blended.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: You got to make two free throws in a row to end it and if you miss you start over.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: Oh and so she did it on the first try, like this weekend.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: She's like, so jacked up.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: I'm like, good, I go, well, we should challenge herself again Anything.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: What do you know?
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: She's like, okay, I'll do this this.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: You know dribbling drill.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: You have to like, make one from, like you make five shots in a row and you end with a three, three pointer.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: So it's you got it's like you know, and you have to dribble, dribble as you're going.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: As you make one, you go, dribble you back up, you go between your legs and if the dribbling gets off the shot because you start over and it usually she's usually that usually takes her about five minutes and then all of a sudden the wind started picking up where we live I'm like, okay, I go.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: Hey, honey, just have this.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: Fyi, this is going to be a lot more difficult.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: It's windy, like it doesn't blow in the gym.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: So I know dad, I'm like, okay, you do.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: You girl, I'll be here Took her probably 15 minutes and I, and all of a sudden, but it was the best thing because I'm like, the one thing I am really, really hard on her is body language.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: That's something I just.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: I just don't allow people to be negative.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: I said you can be mad, but I don't want, I don't want your teammates Take to see that, cause that could be selfish, that if your competitors can see it it's selfish.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: And if I'm a coach, if you're a pouton or you're not going to play, I don't care what happens.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Don't let them see it.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: Because all, whereas I didn't always like this next play at mindset, because you know that as a quarter of college quarterback, that's what helps me keep playing.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: So forward, forward.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: And I said how'd you?
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: And I just was trying to challenge her.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: I was like how's your body language?
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: She's like fine, dad, like you, sure.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: And she, but she didn't buckle.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: I was trying to like trying to make it tough so that when it comes in the game with these things, that's like shoot with my dad's the hardest part ever, but the game is comedious.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: I'm hopeful, as you were saying, that I'm like I hope Riley, she's 30 or whatever.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: That's going to be on her top 10 list, Casey.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: I guarantee it.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: I guarantee it.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Cause these are the moments, these are the things that, in real time, you, it's just you know, I just thought it was what I did with my dad.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: And then I look back 30 years from now and I thought, well, yeah, it was just what I did with my dad, but it was so much more actually but it was so much more, so I guarantee you that that's going to make the top 10.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: My hope and the one thing I celebrate.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: I said, listen, you didn't quit.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: You could have easily quit and he didn't.
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: And I said that and now you've.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: Now you've run the right to go to be lazy.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: You've already got your workout done for the day.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Go be lazy, right?
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: So back to your pops and your mom.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: What, what core?
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: Tell me what core values.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: If you had to pay, pick two or three core values that really stood out.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Now that you're a mom like that, you've maybe learned from your parents that you now have applied to your daughters.
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: Tell me what.
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: What comes to mind.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hard work.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Definitely.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: My dad and my mom value just working, hard work, ethic, work ethic.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: And if you commit to something you commit to it a hundred percent, and that has definitely served me well in all the endeavors that I've attempted over my life.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: But just good, old fashioned hard work, work ethic.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: I think another one is being open minded.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: And you know and I say that in a particular sense of the word, open minded, which is kind of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt that they're coming from a good intention until they prove you otherwise.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: And you know, my, my parents were fairly religious, they were Catholic, they were, you know, boomer, and so that was kind of an unusual trait in that sense, given the value, some of the sort of values they had and grew up with.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: But it was to really just give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they are coming from a place of good intentions.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: And I'll tell you that, casey, that gets goes a long way to so many great outcomes, right Learning, growing, collaborating, all of that.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: So I think those two were probably, probably the biggest for me.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: I am so grateful we have met because you speak in my language what your dad taught you.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: I had this epiphany in 2020.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: I was like we have, if you imagine, if you listened to learn versus listen to persuade what would happen to your relationship.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: And then I joke with like, if there's people like, when I work on my, my, my business job, I'll, when I'm working with teams on like with its leadership, relationship building, I'll say, do you think?
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Like, think about when that person woke up, did they say man, I can't wait to be the shittiest employee ever and I hope, I hope, I really do hope that I lose all the money in our company and frustrate all the employees.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: That's my goal.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: That's my goal.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: I go.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: No one thinks that way, so why are you treating them like that way?
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good point, I go.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Imagine if you went and said we're sorry and hey, slow down and just be a little, have a little grace for people.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, it just goes so far.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: And I'll tell you that I love the phrase you're using listen to learn as opposed to listen to persuade.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Right, you know I'm trained as a lawyer, now law professor, but lawyer, law professor it is very hard not to fall into the listen to persuade.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: It's just a natural, you know.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: It's a natural part of who I am and what I'm trained to do.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: So remembering to step back and listen to learn is it takes conscious thought but it's huge payoff and sometimes I would even say the vice is just listen period for many people.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: You know, talk less, listen more is goes so, and I will say, you know, as a parent, that has been really good advice for me, because that's what my dad did to me.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: You know, I always thought my dad is not really a talkative guy, he's not super, you know, communicative, et cetera but what I realized was he was listening.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Right, he was listening more than trying to talk at me, and so I think that the advice that you're just talking about is also so profoundly important as a parent, right?
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but listening is such an unrated gift that we many people get going way too fast.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: They really get at hearing things.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: They're not going to listening.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Yes, because I would say hearing is subconscious, listening is conscious.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Yes, right, listening is asking one question, not three inside of one question, and then, oh my God, I can't wait to talk about me again.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: It's actually, you know, like the phrase is like wow, tell me more about that.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Explain why that's important to you.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: And so, like a lot of the work I do as a in business, I actually practice on my kids Because, as kids are the hardest people to talk to.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: How was school Good?
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: What'd you do?
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Nothing, you had fun?
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: Yep, all right, we'll see you in six hours.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Versus practicing, opening up questions and trying to find something, and it really helps.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: I think having a podcast and also just practicing stuff with my kids that like tries to get conversation out and I tell them, like, no matter what you do, eq will I mean maybe because I'm more of an EQ than IQ guy but like EQ will trump a lot of IQ, absolutely.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: You know you could be the smartest person in the room, but if you don't want to be a good teammate, you're probably not going to be working in corporate too long.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: But if you can be, show that you've got growth mindset, you're coachable, you show up on time, you're good handshake, you look them in the eye.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: That'll take you a long way.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: I love how you say you know the skills that we typically think of as our professional so-called work skills.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: You know our parenting skills, because parenting is work and so much of those skills are about communication, about building trust, about project management and crisis management.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Seriously, you know, it's funny.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I started.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: It reminded me that I used to talk about when I first started doing research around gender equality.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: I used to talk a lot about work-family balance and I've jettisoned that phrase because I just think balance sets us up for failure always.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: You know, we're never in perfect equipoise, right?
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: So I now talk about work-family integration and what you're describing is such a great example of that.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: It's how we think about skills in one realm playing out in the other realm, how it's related, so I think that's just a perfect example.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I might steal that and tag you if I write an article.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: Work, family integration.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: I will Challenge accepted.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I will write it.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: I'm going to write a blog post and I'm going to tag you in it.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Homework accepted.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Hold me accountable, you're already doing it in your life.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: So now you, just now, you have a phrase for it.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: So if there's dads at home that they're like listening, okay, wait, this sounds great.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: It's fun conversation so far, but, like male allyship for equity, I have no idea what that means.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: Let's dumb it down for them.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Male allyship for gender equity means that, as a man, there are so many ways that you can become an advocate for creating a world that supports girls and women, and you can be a positive force of change to support women and girls getting the same opportunities as boys and men.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Now, interestingly, that's how I started thinking about it, but what I realized is that being an advocate for gender equality also ends up having huge benefits for men and boys, right, because I didn't realize when I started this work how the narrow gender expectations and roles of dads like my dad is breadwinner, how much it limited him and what he could be and do, and why it took him 80 years to cry in front of me.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: And so it's really for all of us.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: So breaking down these expectations about gender role, making sure that women and girls have all the opportunities that they might want, which is the same as boys, right, if boys want to be caregivers, they need to see that, et cetera.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: So that's what I think of when I think of male allyship, and I started seeing examples of this, or actually seeking examples of this, when I saw the effect that my two daughters had on my own husband and my husband's a law firm head of a big law firm.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: You know we've been together over 25 years, so he's definitely heard me talk about gender equality.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: He's always been intellectually committed to the idea right, that gender equality is a good thing, it's a goal, women and girls should have equal opportunities.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: But I don't think he ever really internalized that it was his responsibility as a man to create a world where his daughters could get a fair shake, or internalized his ability to really make a difference and what that might look like.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: And then he had daughters right and Casey.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Everything changed in the sense that his kind of intellectual commitment to gender equality became urgency to act, like I have to figure out how to do something.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: How do I break down general stereotypes?
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: How do I open doors for my daughters?
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: How do I ensure that this world is giving every opportunity to them?
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: And so when I saw that effect on him, when he started asking what can I do?
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Right, not just what does it mean, but what can I do, I started doing research to see.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: You know, is there something about the father-daughter relationship in particular that gives an opening for these conversations?
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: And the research shows that when men have a daughter, they generally tend to become less supportive of traditional gender roles, more supportive of equal pay policies, more supportive of anti-discrimination laws.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Like it really has a profound difference effect.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: And guilty, yeah, right.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: And you just look at the world differently because you're looking at the world through their eyes and their experiences.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: And you know a lot of people ask me well, gosh, men couldn't figure out the importance of gender equality before having a daughter.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: And I said you know, that's the point, isn't?
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: That's not the point.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: The point is, whenever men become interested in thinking about how do I make a more equitable world for my daughters and my sons, right, we say welcome to the conversation.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Let's work together and figure out how this works.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: And as I started looking at stories about dads and daughters in particular, I started seeing this kind of incredible effect that it was having in the real world.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: So, for example, there's research that shows that companies that have CEOs who are dads of daughters have a smaller gender pay gap in their companies than companies that have men who don't have daughters.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Venture capital firms who have senior partners who are dads of daughters more likely to hire women into the partnership, more likely to invest in women-run companies, right, so these effects are real.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: And so that got me started just interviewing other dads of daughters and it became my research, became one seeking dad stories.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Right, how has it affected you to have a daughter?
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: How has it made you change the way you approach your parenting or your work or your community?
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: And it just opened up this opportunity for so many great stories by dads about the impact daughters have had on them, how they started realizing about inequalities in the world and steps that they started taking at small steps, big steps and having an impact.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: And in part, I wrote the book Dads for Daughters, in large part to share dad stories with other dads because I realized that not a lot of them were sharing them with each other and it was just really important as a way to build community, in the same way that your podcast is so important to be dads talking to dads right, Building communities of dads.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: So, dads for Daughters, tell me how.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: If you remember, I think a lot of authors I've talked to, there's always a moment when that idea came to me.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: I'm like that's it.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: I'm going to do it Like where were yours and when did you commit to writing the book?
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a great question.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: I honestly, I think the moment that I knew I was writing this book was when my husband came home and asked me how, how, how do you think I can get more women partners in our law firm, right?
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: And we had talked, you know, abstractly, about gender equality before and he said, you know, I'm just thinking about it now and this was definitely because he had daughters.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about it now.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about I have an obligation, I'm looking at my daughters, I'm realizing that we have far more men than women partners.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: How do I, what do I do, like, what do I actually do?
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: That sort of moment of action.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: And I thought you know, I bet there's so many stories out there about dads who looked at something, saw something, and this is the book is full of these stories now that I was able to meet such incredible dads where they saw something that they thought, huh, this doesn't seem fair.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Or my daughter is not getting a fair shake, or this is limiting the opportunities of my son, or etc.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Or this is a gender stereotype, how do I break it?
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: And all of them had that moment that my husband had, which is how do I change that?
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: What do I do?
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: And that was the moment I thought I gotta write this book.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: I gotta write this book and share stories of how do you take that step, how do you turn the belief that your daughters should have equal opportunities into action.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: And I think that was the moment.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: So good.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: Well, congrats on writing a book.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: I know how hard it is as a fellow author.
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: It is tough and I sarcasm.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: I actually one of the reasons I wrote my book was to prove that football players can put sentences together.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: We're not audience Success.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: I'm going to make sure I connect you with another previous quarterback dad cast female guest, madeline Anderson.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: She wrote the book Girl Dad and I think you guys would love talking because you're both impacting dads and I think you can do a lot of really, really great things and I think the more again there's opportunity for all of us, I think the more that we connect people, which is one of my addictions.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: I love connecting others.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: This time I usually.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: I usually.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: I mean ask for, forget for a.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: I just do it and then I trust that people know that my heart's in the right spot to connect people.
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: I'm curious, as you, from your husband's perspective, have you ever asked him?
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: Like you know, richard, tell me the thing you're, maybe the trait you're most proud of your daughters or what's what like sticks out, that that like he, just like man.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: I love this about them.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: I think the thing he talks about most, I think, is resilience.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I think that is what he is most proud of for them, more so than any of their accomplishments academically or athletically, or I think what he is most proud of is is resilience when something doesn't work, when they doesn't go their way, when it gets hard, when they fail, when they and they are both really tough and really resilient.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: And I think if you asked him, tell me about your daughters, he would not talk about accomplishments although they have many.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: He would talk about that.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: He would say they're tough and what he would mean is resilient.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: Why are they tough yeah?
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: I think part of it is the same reason that the same thing that my dad gave me, which was, is just a which which my husband gave to my daughters, which is just a belief that you can look, why not?
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Of course you can.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: And also, I think, the belief that Failing is opportunity to learn right.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: So failing is not a bad thing.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: We've never in our house thought, well, failing that's a negative, it's a path to learning right.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: And if you're going to fail fail often, fail quick learn, learn from it.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Try to maybe not make the same mistake twice or the same fail twice, but that's how you learn.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: And so I think my husband did a really great job, too, of instilling just the belief that, yeah, you can, and it's not a smooth path no, not the smooth.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: And I think part of that, too, is that my husband and I have both, along the way, shared successes and failures in our own jobs, so they have a sense that when they look at us, they know we did not have a smooth, linear path to success and even now.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: And so sharing failures with your kids, I think, is something that helps them be tough and resilient.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Intention, integrity.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: It recruitment.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: We are McCann Partners and I am Megan McCann, the CEO and founder.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Mccann Partners is a Chicago-based IT recruitment firm.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: We support a growing portfolio of innovative organizations, from Chicago-based startups to companies with a global footprint.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: We are dedicated to creating a more equitable and diverse workforce and are proud that more than 70% of our talent placements since 2020 have been diverse hires.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: We take pride in our work and invest time to hone our skills.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Case in point, our work with Casey Casey helped me and my team learn new habits of success and unlock the skills we already have been using the superpowers of humility, vulnerability and curiosity.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: If you, the listener, are curious about our experience with Casey and his impact on the team and our business, please reach out to me via LinkedIn.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: If our path crossed and if your husband's an actor and is open to meeting people, I think I would love to chat them because there's so many how.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: What he's, what you're saying and what he would say is exactly what I'm proud of, like my daughter she's.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: I think I'm almost envious of her toughness because I wish I was as tough as her as a kid.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: I she works like way harder than I ever worked on the court.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: When she gets tired she's got another level.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: Adam and Matt.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: She gets that from my wife, but like I always joke football players I was at seven seconds and then I get it, get in the huddle and rest.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: But in basketball she's constantly running.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: She disrupts stuff, she brings energy.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: She just tough dive in.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: She loves diving for loose balls and sometimes it's scary watching.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: Like easy girl.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: But like that's who she is.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: And like your husband, I did the same thing.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: I said why not?
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: I sometimes all joke, I go.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: Can you imagine how cool it's going to be when you're the first president of the United States that's a female?
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: Like why not you?
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: Someone's going to do it, someone's going to do these great things.
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: And the reason why I talk about beliefs is.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: I wish nothing against my parents.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: They did not do a bad job of that, they were fantastic.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: But like the word believe, I don't think was like really really talked about a lot.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: And I am, like, so focused on that word because it's so powerful.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: And just it removes fear.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: Absolutely Because fear loves to hide.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: My daughters use the word manifest it, so they say I'm going to manifest it, love it, and it's their version, like the teenage version of believe, I think.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: So we've stolen that phrase from them.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: I'm going to manifest this to happen and it's the idea of I can visualize it, I can see it, I believe.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: There's science that backs that up.
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's science.
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's a phrase I learned called thoughts become things.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, love that.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: I was doing visualization as a 16-year-old, before I even know what visualization was.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: Yes, Powerful In our I mean you ever do vision boards.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: You know we haven't, but it's such a positive, brilliant thing.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: We need to do this, Especially since my daughter goes off to college.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: We should do that.
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: We've done it with our kids and I'm big into like goals, like they have whiteboards and sometimes I'll go right a little note to them or they'll put their goals up and I'm like these are your goals, not mine, but like, just dream big, put it out there.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: And I can't remember who said this, but they said that if your goals don't make you a little nervous, they're probably not big enough.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Absolutely true.
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: And just because I know there's some people who just, oh, I don't like goals, I'm not you, do you.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: But like I like something's going to do something.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: And obviously you guys have some, obviously some good genes.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: You got some talented programmers, you got two lawyers in the house.
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: There's no dummies in the Travis family, so good on for you guys for doing that.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: I was intrigued.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: I know I mentioned in my intro the fathering together.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: I see you're a board member.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: Talk about that.
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: How can we learn more about that?
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you asked about this.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: I love this organization.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: It's a fantastic nonprofit and again called Fathering Together.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: I got connected with this organization because they read my book Dads for Daughters and they called me up and they said let's talk about how dads can be advocates for gender equality.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: And I started talking with them and eventually ended up being a member of their board.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: So Fathering Together started as a Facebook group just to give a community for dads to support each other, but now it has become even more than that with resources and webinars and in-person meetup groups around the country and it's really for dads to get connected with dads and, bigger picture, it's also to support the idea of dads as caregivers and what that looks like and what that means.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: And that's why they were interested in my gender equity work, because dads as caregivers just being a caregiver, being out there as a caregiver, is an act of gender equality, because you're showing people that this is not a gender stereotype role.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: And I love the organization because parenting is a team sport and I think women, for various reasons, have easier ways finding communities.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: There's more structure set up for moms to find moms.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know how when I had my kids, suddenly I had 16 invitations for mom play groups showing up in my inbox.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: I don't even know how, but I just don't think that's the same way for dads.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: So it's really to build communities around dads, empower dads to lean into the role of caregiver.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: So, again, very similar to the work you're doing in the sense of sharing stories and dads sharing stories of both successes and failures and fears and all of that.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: So yeah, fathering together.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: You can go to the website and look at their resources, join a father's group either online or in person, and it's just a wonderful organization.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: I will link them in the show notes when I find them so people can learn more about them.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: Dad's giving you so many resources today to improve your leadership skills, your growth mindset, skills as a dad, which is these are gifts we're going to then pass down to our daughters or sons, so that's really our goal is leave the world in a better spot than we found it.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Ok if you were to summarize what we've talked about.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: Actually, before I ask that one, if you could think back.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: One of the questions I was like asking dads is in the area of their dad game.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: They wished they were better, because we're all flawed humans.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: No one's perfect and sometimes my gap as a competitive guy is patience.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: But recently I joke about this I put myself on a timeout and then went and apologized to my kids, like that was not a good version of dad.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: I apologize.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: I didn't use humor, but I also was like seriously, hey, when you're not your best, own it, and when you do that, it makes it go away so much quicker.
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: So I was like self-therapy, coaching my kids at the same point.
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: So, as you can think back to an area, your dad, or maybe your husband, had to throw him on blast, but like that they're no other, not quite their best, but they're working hard to become that ultimate, better leader of our home that you see from a mom's perspective.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: What advice could you give us dads based on your experiences of mom and a spouse?
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was hard for my dad and still hard for my husband, I would say, to be vulnerable, which is to admit what you just said, to actually admit, oh, I was not my best, I could have done better, oh, I made a mistake.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: And that's just really hard, I think, for someone who is truly bringing their leadership skills to the family and having that vulnerable moment of saying, oh, I made a mistake, I was not my best.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: And so just that being vulnerable and admitting that, I think that's actually was very hard for my dad, still hard for my husband, although he's definitely working on that skill.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: For sure it's hard for all of us, right?
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: So I don't even think that's a dad thing, I think that's a human parent leadership thing.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: But I would say, yeah, just admitting I screwed up, and especially when you don't have a good reason it was just like I lost my temper, I was impatient, I was too busy and I didn't pay enough attention as opposed to when there's not even a great reason and you have to admit that it was just a fail.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: It's hard, it's hard, but it goes so far and I think it allows your kids to do that too.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Right, because I think our kids um are going to be much more communicative and open with us about their own failures if we do the same and we want that, but it's hard.
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: One of my favorite words.
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: So there's three words that drive my life Vulnerability, humility and curiosity.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Beautiful yes.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: And I think the best leaders have those, the best relationship builders have those.
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: When we're our best versions of ourselves, we have those.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's super hard to do all the time and what's funny is people say vulnerability, there's less perception, which I don't know why.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: That's like, oh, if I say I'm sorry that I'm weak.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: No, it's the exact opposite.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: Yes, and people that don't know, I'm a big Brené Brown fan.
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: I saw her speak live that time.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: She can drop the most articulately, articulate, beautiful F-bomb.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, she's amazing, well played oh my God, did she just drop an F-bomb?
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: That was fantastic.
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: But she's so smart and she's impacting like the armed forces, police, sports teams, people that these rough and gruff, tough men and she's getting them to be vulnerable.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: And dads, once you lean into this, watch how your life will change for the better when you lean into vulnerability.
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: Not easy, but when you do, it just takes away the apartment.
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: Friends, the shit.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely the necessary noise that just wasted time.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's harder to do than you know.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: It's hard, it's a hard thing to do Big time, and I think, as part of the vulnerability too I would say, you know, looking at my dad and both my husband, both I think even harder than saying oh, I made a mistake is asking for help, which is, I, put under the same umbrella of vulnerability.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I think that actually might even be even harder is to say I need help for whatever reason, and asking for help and that, similarly, is such an important lesson for our kids to know that asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness, and so I would put that in that same same category.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: So when you're, when you're.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: If so, if you Google I've joked about this at my own expense, michelle if you Google worse handyman in the United States history and then click images, you'll see a picture of me.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: You Google worse cook, you'll see me, that'll be me.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: So it's like if you know, you know, then if you know your gaps and just own them and lean into them before you get made fun of by your buddies, at least then I can use it as coaching.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: I'm like see, look at dad, doesn't?
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: I don't know what the hell I'm doing?
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: I always joke.
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: I'm a great second.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: I can help people do it, I just if I have to be the one to respond for how we're going to build this thing.
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: I'm like my skill set.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know, what that means.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: But it's an opportunity to go to empower someone who does have that skill set.
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: So yeah, why would I be selfish and steal their thunder?
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: Exactly, okay, as we wrap up here, if you thought, if you can summarize into like a couple of actionable, you know, bullet points that dad can say, hey, here's what we've talked about last almost hour, and here are things that you can take to work on being a better version yourself, better husband, better father, better friend, whatever it may be.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: Based on what we talked about today, michelle, tell me what comes to mind.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: So one of my pieces of advice is to lean into being a dad fluencer, and by that I mean share your stories of fatherhood, share your successes, et cetera.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Doing that is not only good for your mental health and for your kids health as a dad, building a community of dads, but what I want to tell you is that being a dad fluencer, sharing your stories of being a caregiver, the ups and downs is also an act of gender allyship.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Right, by showing that men are caregivers too, you are building a world that is going to free both girls and boys of gender stereotypes that are limiting.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: So know that that's important work and that is something that builds gender equality without you even knowing it, right.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: And then the second I want to give a really specific piece of advice, because it's something that dads can do easily and it makes a big difference in the kind of gender equality piece which I'm interested in, which is to, as you're thinking about, how do I spend time with my kids, girls or boys, how do I decide what activities to do, how do I decide what TV to watch, et cetera.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: Think about expanding what you are doing with, or watching with your kids in ways that disrupt gender stereotypes and the sounds really academic et cetera, but it's easy.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: So if you are hanging out with your daughter, play with dolls, that's great.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: But also watch sports with your daughter, build something together, do a science experiment right, play video games with your daughter and compete really fiercely with your daughter, you know.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Sell something right, teacher, how to be an entrepreneur.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: If you're hanging out with your son, by all means go through the football around for sure, but also think about, like, are there ways that we can do some caregiving together?
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: Like how about a pet?
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: What do we get a pet together?
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: Or a garden, some plants right, something like that.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: So just be really broad in thinking about that and the goal is just to allow all your kids really daughters, but also sons to be able to see themselves in kind of any possibility which allows them to chart their own path, right.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: So I mean, biggest advice I would say is big picture, let them chart their own path, but just like, open it up and make sure they know their path is broad and let them be them and you're along for the ride.
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: So good.
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is like such reminders for all of us.
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: That's their journey, not ours.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: Some I talk about, yes, so easy to kind of go.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: It is hard, it's hard, it is hard, and it's specifically hard to see your kids fail.
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: And I tell you, having a kid that plays golf and he's fortunate if he's gonna play golf next fall at a school called Southern Oregon University- Congratulations.
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: Thank you, but it's hard.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: Golf is a hard game.
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: It's super hard and when you it loves to humble you and there's like when the golf gods like, and we're gonna have some fun with you today, and like as a golf parent, you just have to watch he or she just play like dog shit and struggle and like, oh God, this sucks.
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: And you can't just smile and keep your head up.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: And I always tell him like, bro, the two things I can guarantee you, whether you shoot 68 or 154, I love you the same, and the sun's coming up tomorrow.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Yep, Absolutely.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: You know and applaud the effort, not the results.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: I always do that where the results are good or bad, applaud that effort and that makes a difference.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Right, that's, they'll know what you value.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, great advice.
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: Okay, if people have been intrigued by you which I'm sure they have and they want to say how can I learn more?
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: How can I connect with with Michelle?
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: How can I learn more about her work?
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: They want to follow what you're doing.
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: If they're, they want to learn, they want to find your book.
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: Tell me what's the best place that people can connect with you.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: If you're open to connect with people, Absolutely so.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: You can find more information about me and my book and connect with me through my website, which is Michelle Travisnet, and you'll find everything there.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: Feel free to reach out for me.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: Awesome.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: Now tell me how to to to chat and that's she's telling the truth, everybody, because I reached out to her.
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: She had no idea who I was and she, she accepted the invite and she's here on the podcast.
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: So if you're intrigued, take up.
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: Take her up on that, learn more about her book, learn more about, um, fathering together.
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: If you want to get involved, follow that foundation.
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: Um, okay, Michelle, it's now a time for what I call the lightning round, where I go random on you.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: Uh-oh, I'm ready.
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: My job is to try to answer these questions that I have not thought of at all.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: I'm going to show you the negative effects negative effects of taking too many hits not bong hits, but football hits and call it.
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: And my job is try to get a giggle out of you.
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: All right, I'm ready.
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: Okay, True or false, I once yelled you can't handle the truth in a courtroom.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: I want to say true.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: So badly in my, in my mind, I have done that, but I think I have to say false.
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: That's true.
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: I will tell the story after the lightning round because I want to have another lawyer hear the story.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: True story, okay, uh, true or false.
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: Your favorite band is ACDC.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: Gonna have to go with false.
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: False Okay.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: Although my husband's going to cringe at that one, but false for me.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: Okay, Tell me what would be the one song all of your law students would be like what Professor Travis listens to that music.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: Probably Beyonce single ladies.
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: I thought you were going to say gangsta rap.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: I was like wow that would have been better.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: That would have been better.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: I would say probably the most embarrassing thing on my playlist is Kpop.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: You know BTS, but a single ladies is probably the top.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: You know stream song on my playlist.
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: There we go, beyonce, I love it.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: Um, if I was to come to your house for dinner tonight, tell me what we'd have Take out, you're such a good cook.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: Take out.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: Okay, what kind?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: Let's do their, do their thing.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: What kind of take out?
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: What do we have?
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Italian.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: Okay, that sounds good.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: If there was to be a book written about your life, tell me the title.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Work in progress.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: Like that.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: Now work in progress is killing it.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: It's on every bookshelf, it's in Barnes and Noble, it's on Amazon.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: Everybody's reading it now.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: Netflix and Hulu and Amazon they're all fighting for it, and one of them was on the rights and you are now the casting director.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: I need to know who is going to star you in this critically acclaimed, hit new movie.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: Got to be Gal Gadot.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: Who doesn't want Wonder Woman playing them right she?
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: should probably be.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: You look like Wonder Woman.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: Now I think about it.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: That's compliment.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: You got dark hair, You're just missing.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, good thing, this is just audio, so no one can actually check that, but I will take it.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: Everybody's shes a cape on right now.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: I just bring it with me wherever I go.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: Okay, if there was, if you and your husband, we're going to take a trip right now, vacation just you and him.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: No kids, Tell me where you're going.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: Africa.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: We've always wanted to go Africa.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: It's on our bucket list as soon as we get both of these kids launched to college.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: It's Africa.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: There we go, okay.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: And then last last question Tell me two words that describe your actually.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: Two part question Give me two words to describe your dad, okay, two words to describe your husband.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, my husband.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: I'm going to say hashtag girl dad.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that's actually two words, but we're going to treat it as two words hashtag girl dad.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: And I say that because I think, of all, my husband is an incredibly accomplished human, but I think the thing he's most proud of is being a dad of daughters.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: I really do.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: That's the role that he cares about and is most proud of.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: And then my dad.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: I'm going to have to say I don't know if this is a cop out, Casey, but I'm going to have to say oh gee, girl dad.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: I love it, the original gangsta.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm not going to, but he definitely before.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: He was before his time in many ways.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: Well, this has been a blast.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: I've been, I've enjoyed.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: I showed Michelle, everybody a blank sheet of paper.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: I now have two pages of notes which I hope people at home.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: As you're listening, you take notes.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: It's a great way to learn and that's how he goes into the brain and it sticks and actually say learn, get stronger.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: I want to thank you.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: I want to thank our sponsors for your continued support.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: I want to thank every dad out there, or mom or grandpa or whoever decides to listen, for your time and your commitment to finding ways to make people around us better, yourself better.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: If you have not taken time to leave a review, or wherever you consume your podcast, that would be the biggest gift you can give me today, because the more people that hear about this podcast, the more we have a chance to keep this thing going.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: We're in season five and I don't plan on ever stopping this thing and hopefully maybe one day my son will take it over for me or my daughter.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: But I want to say, michelle, thank you so much.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: This has been a blast learning about you.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: You're doing fantastic work for all of us, dads and people in the community, and I'm grateful our paths have crossed today.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you, casey.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and thank you to all the dads out there who are doing such important work.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: From a mom, I just want to say we see you.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: We are grateful for you.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Thank you, bye.