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Episode #71: How to Build a Successful Parallel Economy · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: One of the you know one of the darlings of this movement right now is the Personal Membership Association.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's called PMA, Personal Membership Association.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And essentially it's modeled after the uh the the country club platform, which country clubs are are not are not public.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have to adhere to, for example, Americans with Disability Act.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't want to give wheelchair access, they don't have to.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm not opposed to Wheelchair Act.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Don't read into this, okay?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just suggesting that they're able to operate outside because they're not public.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, welcome to another edition of Beyond Labels.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McCullough here with our favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: And today we have a very exciting and I think hopeful topic.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: This comes from a listener named Dan Meyer.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Dan writes to us and he says, Greetings.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: If I haven't been misinformed, the IRS hired approximately 80,000 new agents and have been training them up in small arms confrontations.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: To what extent might this be directly aimed at the inevitable exploding grayslash black markets that will spring up when they roll out the C B D C?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: To me, this seems obvious, but I don't remember hearing anyone in the independent media taking this seriously.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: It seems clear that PMAs and less formal relationships are in the crosshairs and the confrontations are imminent.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is a formal PMA enough to protect against this probable development?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what other measures could a concerned citizen take?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Joel.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Dan, thank you so much for that, those questions.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I love this topic.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Joel has some great information on PMAs in particular, so I'm gonna toss it over to you, Joel.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Cena.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: So uh just so everybody is on the same page here, the CB, there's some jargon in this.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: The CBDC stands for central bank digital currency.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh one of the hot topics right now in kind of the the um uh the uh I don't know the the the prepper the where's this country going.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and of course we see we see this uh primarily being done right now in China.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, China kind of leads this technology of being able to track track every transaction, be able to uh uh you know, facial recognition their people, know where you're going.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean the the lockdown, the COVID lockdowns have been a great test run for some of the things that they envisioned, you know, in in China, you you can't get a loan, for example, if your um if your social rating is poor.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how do you track this kind of stuff?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you track it with a central bank digital currency.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can't track it with you know with with dollar bills, with cash, uh uh or or even cryptocurrency.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so, you know, the this is a big question.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So really, I I think I think the and of course you got the 80,000, uh 80,000 new agents, you know, they haven't been hired yet.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um most of them will not be armed, some will.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but uh uh, you know, um I think it's important for all of us to realize that if if we actually do get 80,000 new IRS agents, we'll have more IRS agent IRS agents in the U.S.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: than we have uh active military marines.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh that that certainly should make you feel very, very safe that we have more IRS agents than than Marines.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's not the little little uh satirical aside there.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so the question the question is, as a as a society begins to break down, uh what are some of the things that develop as it as it starts to uh as it starts to break down?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um either in its in its um leadership status in the world, uh in its control of its own people, uh, in its own economic uh collapse.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, we're we're printing money up the wazoo, we've got inflation going on.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and and the you know, the people that I follow uh actually are a little bit uh tongue-tied as to as to as to how how the Fed gets out of this.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've got a we've got a push to keep interest rates low, but um, you know, inflation goes up, so you got to have high interest rates and and all these things militate against each other.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about all that.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the question is, with all of this this bruhaha brewing at levels that you and I can't can't um uh change, how do we how do we function for uh authentic food?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get good food?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: How do we actually transact business uh that's outside the control, the tracking, and the sphere uh of of a of an increasingly interventive, tyrannical, bureaucratic state?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that's the bottom line question.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so um because of all this, uh three years ago, John Moody and I started the Rogue Food Conference, uh RFC.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can Google it up, Rogue Food Conference.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: We've now had five.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Our last one was in December.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Rogue Food Six is gonna be here at Polyface Farm in Virginia, and we're gonna have Congressman Thomas Massey and uh a couple of other you know elected people from that that you would know around the country.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: They're not all confirmed yet.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, it's gonna be a it's gonna be quite a uh quite a uh a consortium here.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And our whole goal in this, in the rogue food conferences, has been to to showcase, to find practitioners and then showcase circumventive models of people who are already in the state we're in, uh are figuring out ways to circumvent the regulatory um food police.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just call them food police that we have in this country.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so one of the, you know, one of the darlings of this movement right now is the personal membership association.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's called PMA, Personal Membership Association.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And essentially it's modeled after the uh the the country club platform, which country clubs are are not are not public.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have to adhere to, for example, Americans with Disability Act.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't want to give wheelchair access, they don't have to.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm I'm not opposed to Wheelchair Act, don't read into this, okay?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just suggesting that they're able to operate outside because they're not public.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you think about uh, and again, I don't I don't I'm not an attorney, but but I I do follow and and and appreciate uh litigation.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if you followed the recent uh the court cases, for example, remember the the wedding cake, the Christian wedding cake people in Colorado that got uh uh taken to court for not making a wedding cake for I think it was a homosexual uh wedding.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then now we have this graphics artist lady in uh Colorado that went to the Supreme Court um uh being accused of discrimination.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: The problem with those businesses is that they are perceived to be public businesses.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, I hang my shingle, uh, I'm a public business, anybody that can come.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: But in a in a country club, I can exclude people.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you're too fat, you're too thin, you're the wrong ethnicity, you have, you know, uh I this this is a private club.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So the private part of private membership association um means that this is not a public, uh, a public uh uh situation.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Cena, do you have a question?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let me just ask a quick question.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I didn't know all the all of these details about just because they call it a private country club, they're exempt from all the from all these numerous regulations.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Are they also exempt, for instance?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Say this country club is going to cook and you know, prepare and serve food.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do are they subject to the government inspections of the kitchens and whatnot, like a restaurant would be?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: My understanding, yeah.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: My understanding is that is true, that they they don't have to subject themselves to to food inspections.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, basically, this is a this is a completely independent uh private club.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: They can set whatever rules they want.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and the the operative thing here is that it is private, not public.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, um and and I know that we have plenty of libertarians and conservatives listening to our podcast, Cena, who who would say, Well, look, if if I have a cake decorating business, uh, I should be able to, you know, exclude who I want to.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um if I have a business and I only want to serve you know, atheist bow-legged Vietnamese people, I should be able to only serve atheist Vietnamese.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, you know, philosophically, I agree with you on that, because your business is your business, but the courts have interpreted that if I if I don't make exclusionary, if I don't have exclusionary on the front end, then I am public.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: For example, here at our farm, here at our farm, uh, those of you have been here, you know, we have a farm store.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: The government considers our farm store a public place of business.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: We have to have bathroom, we have to have wheelchair access.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: The only way that we cannot be considered a public, a public uh uh access business is to is to on the front end exclude who can come here.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, out at the farm gate, we would say private property, only those who blah, blah, blah.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh uh and so so we we make our exclusions uh uh very, very public.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't make public exclusions, then you are considered a public, open to the public business and therefore subject to all these things, which is why, which is why the arguments on the cake decorators and the now the the graphics artists, uh artist lady, um, those arguments have been uh not about public and private or property rights.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: They have been about freedom of uh about uh uh religious freedom of expression.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and and is is cake decor can can can a customer demand that I violate my religious beliefs um in a public place with my cake decorating art, you know.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that and and that's why the cake decorators won.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they they won their they won their case uh on freedom of expression, but but it wasn't it wasn't about whether she had to adhere to, for example, um um commercial kitchen commercial kitchen food regulations.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that that was not the issue.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I don't want to get, you know, these these arguments, these issues become, of course, you know, uh quite interesting as you develop.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um so there are there are a couple of things that are key here to the private membership association.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and the the word private uh is way more is way stronger than membership association, but um but just realize that what a PMA does is very upfront and forcefully it creates an exclusionary um you know you can say discriminatory, but we're gonna use the word exclusionary.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: It uses it uses an exclusionary, an exclusionary upfront format to uh to describe who can enter and who can't, or who can enter into that.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now that that's one element.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: The second is that then the the transactions that occur in that private membership association now become a different arrangement than buying and selling.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So what we have is we have the commerce clause that regulates things that are in commerce.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when I if you go to a store and you buy something, there are a host of things from you know uh uh minimum wage laws to workmen's comp to uh product safety requirements, all sorts of things um that that deal with a product that you go and buy.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: But in a, for example, a um a subscription service like a community supported agriculture, a CSA, or a PMA, or uh Neithi Bali's uh 501c3 food church, in all of these arrangements, it is not a buy-sell, it is an invest and get dividend.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: So think of think about this.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: When you when you uh quote unquote buy stocks and bonds, you you are not guaranteed anything.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so there's no warranty.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So when I go buy a cordless drill down at Lowe's, there's a warranty with it.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: If it if it malfunctions in a whatever, six months, you know, uh they'll replace it or what you know.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's got a warranty.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: You got all sorts of warranties, you got car warranties, you know, uh computer warranties, all sorts of things.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: That is in it, that is in a commercial sale, um, a sale transaction where where the buyer, the buyer takes no risk in the transaction.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at the shelf or the opportunity, and I'll take this one.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't build it, I don't know anything about it, but I'm just gonna pay cash and buy it.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: But in all these other things, the PMA, the CSA, the food church, all these other things, it is not a buy-sell transaction.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: It is an investment that is a shared risk where you're giving it getting a dividend.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: For example, the reason that you don't have to charge sales tax in a in a uh uh CSA, and you're not subject to a lot of these uh tax things is because the courts have ruled very clearly that when I as a um as an investor share risk, that makes that makes whatever the transaction is not a sale.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So so so courts have have defined very carefully this is a sale and this is not a sale, because obviously if a sale, if a sale um creates liability, for example, disclosure, for for example, let's say you're gonna buy a house.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say you're gonna buy a house, you go there, um if if the house has a um is is uh whatever in a in a in a floodplain, for example.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: If the house in a floodplain, that has to be disclosed to the buyer.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: If if that is not disclosed to the buyer, then the buyer can come back and sue for false, you know, we're for fraudulent uh excuse me, for fraudulent information, in other words, that you didn't disclose this um the this problem.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so in buying and selling uh in in regular sales, our courts at least, for better or worse, have ruled that the that the warranty, the guarantee, the liability for the product to be what the seller says it is, is all on the on the seller's responsibility.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm selling you this toy, if I'm selling you this house, if I'm selling you, you know, this milk or whatever, um it it is warranted to be what I say it is, and if there's any question, I have to legally disclose disclose the the problems, okay?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if you if you have a transaction, if you can create a transaction in which the transfer of value shares risk between buyer and seller, or in some way does not does not uh um uh adhere to the qualifications of in-commerce, then what you have is a transaction that's not a sale.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: So so for example, in a CSA, if I if I quote unquote invest in a farm, I buy a share of that farm's production, 500 bucks, and grasshoppers come and eat up all the tomatoes, and I don't get any tomatoes, I can't go to that farmer and say, hey, look, I bought I bought these, you know, the share of of of thought supposed to get tomatoes, I didn't get tomatoes.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Farmer said, no, no, no.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: You invested, you invested in the farm's production, and we didn't have uh we didn't have tomato dividends this year.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh uh that's an investment.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Just like just like if you buy if you buy um uh Tesla stock, you're not guaranteed that it's gonna go up.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: You might lose your shirt.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: People people lost billions of dollars recently with the the cryptocurrency, you know, um firm uh FTX, with um, you know, all that that's going down.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: FDX, you know, it almost collapsed the cryptocurrency market.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: People lost billions and billions of dollars.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: They can't sue anybody to to to collect it because it was an investment, not a purchase.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: So this is this is what this is what's critical, and and this question here about well, what do we do with these 80,000 agents and and this this um this burgeoning, you know, uh um whatever, you know, uh market intervention uh from black markets.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: So so the the so there are now numerous uh uh things, mechanisms, I'll just call them mechanisms, platforms, that are being developed in order to facilitate a non-public, non-sale, non-commercial transaction.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what rogue food is all about, and that's what the uh what the PMA is all about.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in obviously in a in a black market, um people start trading in alternative currencies.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's cat some cash left over, maybe you start trading in uh silver or gold, or you know, I'd be glad to bring back uh wampum, wampum and seashells and beads would suit me fine.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: But but um, you know, when when a when a when a culture begins to fragment and break down, um all sorts of clever things happen.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Cena, you're a lot younger than I am.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can remember very well during the early 1970s, the the the Viet it was the Vietnam era, Vietnam War, the hippie revolution, Woodstock, and um and there were there were a lot of people predicting the end of the world.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: That that's kind of where all this, you know, this this uh end of the world stuff started uh developing.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and uh and and there was very high inflation uh you know during Nixon and and extremely high inflation.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Then we had the Arab oil embargo.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: You could you couldn't get gasoline, you could only buy gas on on days.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if your license tag was an odd number, you get it on odd days.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: If it was an even number, you get it on even days.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was it was really there were there was a lot of of discombobulation going on there in the early 1970s, uh, when I was in on high in high school.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what uh one of the things that that um you know uh innovative thinkers created at that time were barter fares.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Barter fairs where people would come together and everybody would bring something to trade.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've got six chickens, uh, you've got an acupuncture session, uh, this guy's got some uh some pearls, and this guy's got accounting services.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and these were these were barter fairs that they didn't last very long.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they were they were kind of cumbersome, you know, but but but but they were they were they were an attempt to create a platform to do business um completely outside government oversight.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well today, today we have the internet.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't have the internet back then.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Today we've got the internet.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: The ability to create large communities of barter today on the internet is unprecedented.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, in other words, imagine a barter platform where everybody brings something, you know.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've got I've got computer services, uh, you've got uh wedding cakes, this guy has uh jewelry, this person has cookies, and and and you you basically do a cashless trade.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and you simply, you know, and and these kinds of things often create uh um their own little little uh currency worlds.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um the bar the the physical barter fares of the early 1970s were cumbersome today with our with with the the technology we have with the internet um and and and and shopping cart, you know, basically shopping cart type technology, uh you know, the the this this barter concept is is way above you know what it was 40 50 years ago, uh what I remember.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so um so what I'm trying to suggest is that people who want to come outside the system, I believe, are going to be clever enough to create platforms to maybe not thrive, but at least survive uh outside the system.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: That they throughout history they always have.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, by the same token, we've never had we've never had the um you know the the technology for central governments to track people like we do today, you know, facial recognition, uh um, you know, to be able you go into a store and uh you can't buy and trade unless you're you know unless your um your you know your iris iris uh your eye eye footprint fingerprint uh checks, uh those kinds of things.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean that that has really progressed in this whole COVID thing.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, where if you you walk into a store in China and you don't have a green light, uh when you look into the into the little monitor there and it says, oh, this person not been vaccinated, you can't come into the store, you know, those kind of things.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: But trust me, if that kind of unbelievable draconian thing develops here, um people like us uh are going to develop platforms.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Some people love the PMA because it does give a very blanket uh a blanket circumventive opportunity.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: I get that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: The weakness, in my view, of the PMA is that it is completely up to the good mercies of the courts to to recognize PMAs.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm always concerned about something uh where I've got to trust in the judges to agree that my interpretation or my thing is okay.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um some of these other things, uh, for example, there's another there's another option now where through the internet I can charge, I can charge for a class, a butchery class, and give away meat as for to all the students who take the class.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: So imagine I want to I want to um you know uh uh I have a cow to sell and I've got uh 10 people that want to buy that cow.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they sign up for my course.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I video the butchery out in the out in the you know the the field here, and um, and each of them gets you know gets uh 30 pounds of meat free as a part of of taking the course.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, this isn't this has never been really, really uh uh easily possible before.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the last time I was in Europe, for example, I met a farm in Germany.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So when they had a cow ready to go to the butcher, they'd put the cow on their website and people would buy portions of that cow.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when the cow was all sold, then they went to the butcher.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um and so you know, these are very clever, uh, clever workarounds to create non-sales, to create under the radar sales, and I think that they will proliferate.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and let's not, you know, let's not just be depressed or discouraged right now uh in light of what's going on.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be uh let's be proactive about joining the tribes, the groups, and the expertise and and and um and developing our own um our own arc.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Each one of us is responsible for our own arc.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean like Noah's arc, okay?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: So so as as the as the flood as the floods develop, um each one of us is responsible to either build or find or both our own ark.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: So don't be discouraged.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Let's all be Noah's, and uh, and as things as things come, um we'll we'll find our arcs and we'll be just fine.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: I almost want to stand up and start cheering.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we actually have um a friend of the show, Josh Lewis, who is building an arc and has been building one now um for some uh maybe even over a year.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um he's doing exactly what you said.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: He has found a group of people um largely through word of mouth, so it's not being tracked necessarily like on a website.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: He has found a group of people and they connect via email and they're all prepared.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: They all have different skill sets and they're ready to help.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh basically, they formed a big tribe, even though they're not neighbors for instance, but they're all in a general location.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this tribe is ready to start helping each other.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I grow this and I do this and I teach yoga, and you know, they're ready um to basically create their own tribal community if they need to.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm I'm feeling compelled to really put some attention on developing uh who's who's here, who's nearby, who's actually geographically proximate that we can uh that we can put together our our expertise.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Our um uh our our church, I've kindly uh finally convinced our church, I think we're we're gonna develop a factory of expertise within our church.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we start building an uh an economy within ourselves.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: I can trust you to build to fix my stairs, you can trust me to build your website, you know, and and and and we we start building those alternatives.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, we we individualistic uh society, we have not put attention on these kinds of relation-centric commercial interests.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: We've simply looked at who's got the cheapest price, who's got, you know, this kind of thing.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and we haven't really um, this is one reason why our country has offshore everything that's important.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: We don't produce anything here uh anymore.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and so we're realizing that resilience, that yes, money's important, but it's but it's not the most important thing.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think for me, I have found that we don't seem to value relationships as much um in our society because we haven't needed to um develop those relationships, right?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: As we've gone from more tribal to more independent living, um, we've almost swung that pendulum too far, I think.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and so we we don't have this mutual dependence on each other anymore, which you know, this is contrary, right?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: We we're libertarians, we want to be self-sustaining, self-fulfilling, be all.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: But there is a level of of this mutual dependence that can help you that is needed in that type of situation.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, um, that's one of the blessings now of the community that I've joined is that it's it's this homesteading community, a group of women, and we meet once a month, every month.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: And each month, somebody shares something that they're passionate about.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have to be an expert in it, it's maybe something that they're learning about and they just want to share it with us.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we we are we're building that connection.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I have found that to do that, relationships take time, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: They take effort, they take time.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to start getting off the treadmill, right?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to start reprioritizing and not being dragged into what society necessarily thinks is important, right?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's more of okay, do I need to do that?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's my priority here?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: I want to build these relationships, so I need to take X, Y, and Z off my plate so that I have the time and capacity to really invest in those relationships, you know, in those people.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's another component to it.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I we're almost out of time.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: I want to bring this back around to one of the last parts of his question.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I want to get your take on it.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, about and you touched on it a little bit.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: What if these PMAs are regulated, right?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: What if all these inventions that we come up with are regulated?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, they're they've already tried to challenge the PMAs, correct?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And isn't this part of the Amos Miller case?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, correct me if I'm wrong there, but can you run with that a little bit?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, well, they have.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Amos Miller right now is the is the precedent-setting poster boy for um for the PMA.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: There have been numerous PMA uh tests in the courts so far.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: PMAs have won each one, but there have but there haven't been very many uh cases.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: There have only been two or three cases.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that this is this is a relatively new um a new application.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: This this whole food idea.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's a you know uh golf golf country clubs um uh now you know uh duplicated in food.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh country club, you know, that's fine.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Those were the movers and shakers, but now you know we're talking about people that actually uh are are normal people.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so so uh you know whether that can duplicate over, uh we'll see.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Amos Miller's case is ongoing.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we've mentioned it here on the podcast before.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there is a there's just been a new ruling.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Interestingly, the the the judge has released his food.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: He can move his food to people now for about 10 more days um under the cease and desist order.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: So this is an ongoing thing, and and as I learn more, I'll certainly bring more up with it.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it it has been complicated by the cease and desist order that he uh he uh should not have signed, but he did not have good legal counsel.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's another whole whole uh uh problem here.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um uh the you know, will they attack the PMA?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: If trust me, trust me, anything that actually brings freedom in the food system and can impair the uh the stranglehold of the industrial ag complex uh will get significant scrutiny within the um within the system.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so um while I am I am totally in favor of PMAs, I want there to be thousands of them.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I do think that they are because they depend on on judges' friendliness, uh they are they they have a they have a weakness there that that literally under the table stuff, you know, um uh doesn't have, or some of these other uh completely circumventive things uh don't have.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, time will tell, but we'll see.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a great one to end on.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because Dan's last question was what measures could concern citizens take?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you you addressed this nicely, Joel.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for me, it's yes, let's keep supporting PMA, so you know, support Amos Miller's case, for instance, but let's also take action at our local level, as we you and I are both doing.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, build your own skill set if you don't have one already, like something that could be a valuable uh value to you know your fellow tribesmen and reach out and find that tribe, right?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: For me, that's the best security I have at this point is I have this local tribe of people and we know we can help each other.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm not alone.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, Dan, thank you so much for sending in your question.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: As always, thank you, Joel, for your seemingly infinite amount of wisdom.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: I learned something from you every day we talk.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we will see you next week, where I'm sure Joel is going to enlighten all of us again.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: All right, bye bye for now.