Latest / The Partial Historians / Shirts Off for Virtus!
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Music. Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 0:18 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr rad and Dr G 0:33 I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 1:00 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr G. Dr Rad 1:08 And I am Dr Rad. Dr G 1:11 We are about to launch in to the year 394, BCE. But before we do that, I think we just need a little bit of a recap. Where are we up to in Roman history? What has been going on? Dr, rad, Dr Rad 1:27 well, it's as usual, has been quite tense. Dr G, there's been a lot of drama after the capture of a which you might not have been expecting, because it seems like that should be a happy time for everyone. Dr G 1:39 Yeah, you would have thought so. But it seems that with every victory comes an additional cost, sometimes a burden to the physical self, sometimes a burden to the psyche of Rome. Dr Rad 1:53 Well, they've definitely been fighting over the issue of the tithe that Camillus promised he had vowed that he was going to give a 10th of whatever they captured in terms of the booty and that sort of thing to the gods, specifically to Apollo. And this turned out to be a huge issue, because he forgot to mention that until after everyone had got their stuff and then gone out and spent it, or used it, or whatever it was they were doing with it. Dr G 2:21 Yeah, it seems to be a huge issue. And part of the reason why it's such a big problem is that the promise was based on gold value. So it's not just the old exchanging of the leather boots that has been going on for decades now when we talk about booty, but Rome has come into some serious prize money, essentially through the sacking of Veii and Camillus has forgotten to mention to anybody that 1/10 of that needed to be reserved for Apollo because of his promise to the gods that if they helped him out, he would give them a gift in return. And all of a sudden, we find some very angry Roman soldiers on our hands, and they're angry with reason, good reason, I would say, Absolutely. Dr Rad 3:07 We also have this drama over the colonies. So the Senate had suggested setting up a colony on the border of Volscian territory and Rome, I believe. And the plebs were like, You can't fool us. We know that that's crappy land. You're just trying to distract us. What we want is they. We want to make they an extension of Rome. We want half the population to go and live there. And the Senate were horrified by that suggestion, and so there's been some fighting between the patricians and the plebeians over what is going to happen to the actual city of they Dr G 3:49 Well, I guess I wonder if 394 will lead us any closer to some conclusions about the rising internal issues that Rome seems to be Having on the back of a very big military victory, Dr Rad 4:03 I'm really looking forward to the hissy fits that are going to be thrown. Dr, G, Dr G 4:08 Well, without further ado, let's launch into 394, BCE, Dr Rad 4:22 ah, all right. Dr, G, it is 394, BCE, and I would love you to tell me all about the magistrates for this year. Oh, Dr G 4:49 we have a whole bunch of people in power, in various positions. We do. It is a big year. So we'll start with the military tribunes with consular power. Hour. This has been a pretty common occurrence year on year for a while now that rather than having consoles, we have a slightly lesser prestige position that can be filled by more than two people. And the idea is, at some point, maybe we get some plebeians involved. But yet again, we find ourselves in a situation where it's all patricians in the position of military Tribune with consular power. Dr Rad 5:30 I wish I could say I'm surprised. Dr, G, but my mouth is firmly closed. My jaw is very far from the floor. You're Dr G 5:37 like, tell me something I don't know exactly. Dr Rad 5:41 I'm just resigned to the fact that this is just how it is now. Dr G 5:44 Yeah, not only are there more positions, but that just means we have to deal with more patricians. Great. Yeah, fantastic. Dr Rad 5:51 Yeah. In fact, the plebeians have come up with a very good way of actually giving more patricians more power. Really, Dr G 6:00 it's working out really well. So we have first cab off the rank is the very famous at this point, Marcus Furius Camillus, Dr Rad 6:11 dictator extraordinaire, from 396, Dr G 6:15 Yep, he's back again. We'll see how that pans out for him. He is joined by Lucius Furius Medullinus, yeah, and this guy's had a whole bunch of positions. His name is very familiar. There is also Caius Aemilius Mamercinus. This is his first appearance. Why? Hello there, young man. But from a distinguished family, a very distinguished family. The Aemilii are one of the oldest and best families. Thank you very much. Lucius Valerius Poplicola, also first appearance, Dr Rad 6:50 again, distinguished family, though very distinguished family. Dr G 6:53 The Valerii in particular, this line of the Poplicola. Yes, they've had quite a previous century. So good to see them hanging out still. They are joined by Spurius Postumius Albinus Regillenisis, also his first appearance. But again, the postumii, very, very prestigious family and also a this is where we start to get into the hazy territory we have a Publius Cornelius, but we're missing part of the name. So because we've only got the prinomen pubulus, and we've got the gens name, the nomen Cornelius, this kind of leaves it wide open as to which Publius Cornelius we could have on our hands. And this has led to me consulting the digital prospography of the Roman Republic. Have fun, everybody. It's out there online. You can check it out for yourselves. And so we have this Publius Cornelius, and the speculation is that it's either Publius Cornelius Cossus, also a patrician or Publius Cornelius Scipio, who was previously in the role in 395, so doing a sort of a double duty there and then we also, in addition to that, have what might be a seventh military Tribune with consular power. I know an odd and prime number. I shall not stand for it Rome, a guy called Catlus Verus, who is only cited by Diodorus Siculus, which I know might make you think untrustworthy, probably not a real person. It Dr Rad 8:41 sounds like a weird addition to have a seventh one. It does to be his name on top of it. Yes. Dr G 8:48 Not only numerically, are we in uncharted territory in terms of how many military tribunes with consular power we have at this point, but also the name doesn't quite stack up to anything we've ever seen before. So that doesn't help us place this person, especially Dr Rad 9:03 amongst like, we've got like, the Aemilii, we've got Servilii, we've got Cornelii, we've got Postumii, all names that I am very familiar with, Dr G, but throw this guy into the mix, yeah, Dr G 9:15 who is this guy? Who is this Catlus Verus, and what is going on here? Who's Speaker 1 9:21 that man seven around with you? Dr G 9:27 Apt, very apt, Diodorus Siculus has some questions to answer, but we can't take him off the list because our evidence is so so little most of the time that we're just gonna leave him there with Dr Rad 9:40 a huge question mark, fair enough, dangerous. Dr G 9:43 So far so good. Then we have the tribune of the plebs. Now these three names will be very familiar, because they all served in the previous year. All re elected, apparently, Titus Sicinius, Quintus Pomponius, and Aulus Verginius. This Dr Rad 10:01 is something that was foreshadowed by Livy, because, remember, there wasn't really a resolution to this question of a colony at Veii, or extending Rome into Veii, or dividing Rome in two and setting up another Rome at Veii. However, it was they were pitching it. These guys were integral to that, and you will see how this all plays out. Dr, G, it's gonna be interesting. Because, well, you know, I don't want to say too much, but they might not all be playing for the same team. Oh, I'm not speaking about their sexuality. I was gonna Dr G 10:33 say, and I was like, who's batting for the other side? And also, I approve wholeheartedly. All right, so the tribute of the plebs. We'll see how that pans out for this year. I'm interested to see where that goes, because I'm pretty sure your it sounds like your evidence is trending in that direction, whereas my evidence might not be. And then we also have a category that is labeled as legates, slash ambassadors, people who have been delegated a specific task by Presumably, the military tribunes. And this relates to the infamous golden bowl of Apollo yes, that has been put together from the 10% that everybody has complained about so bitterly. This includes guys like Lucius, Valerius Potitus, who is a very well known military Tribune with constable power from previous years. And Lucius Sergius Fidenas, who served in 397 and Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus, also previously a holder of the military Tribune position. So they're all people with deep political experience, all very well known. This may be why they've been delegated this very important task. Dr Rad 11:52 Absolutely, it is all right. Dr, G Well, are you ready for the drama of 394, BCE, I really am. Dr G 12:01 And do you want to know why? Why? Because I do have some source material, including Dionysus of Halicarnassus. Dr Rad 12:10 Oh, really get out of town. Here's Ben. Oh, my God. Well, this truly is a banner year for us. So, as you know, tents in Rome. And therefore we had the plebeians pushing hard to have the same tribunes of the plebs elected, because they thought that that was how they were going to get this whole division between Rome and Veiicity colony thing happening that they were keen on. But we also, of course, have the patricians who have literally said that they would rather die than see that happen. And so they also want to make sure that they've got people who are Uber patricians serving as military tribunes. So the senators, of course, push hard to get none other than Camillus elected, saying that they need his military expertise. I mean, it's got nothing to do with this whole very issue. It's just that there's, you know so much war going on, Dr G 13:01 we really just need somebody who's got the chops exactly now, Dr Rad 13:06 the tribune of the plebs, they clock this, and they make sure that they stay as quiet as little mices and restrain themselves until camillas has to go off and fight with the Faliscans, because, lest we forget, Dr G in the previous year, Rome had to mop up the whole vase situation by dealing with vase allies like Capena and the Falerii. And so that's what Camillus is doing, because the people of capenna had surrendered, but the Falsicans, they had not. The Faliscans are holding out. Classic, they are holding out. They sound adorable, but they're clearly no pushover. However, they didn't really accomplish very much, apparently. And this seems very typical for the plebeians in Livy's version of things, the people had kind of cooled off on the whole idea, after being very fiery about it the year before, where it seemed like they were actually going to murder people in the name of this bill that they were proposing. Instead, the tribunes of the plebs don't make much headway. Meanwhile, Camillus is off earning further glory for himself against the Falsicans, and I kind of feel like his reputation needs this Dr G, because the whole triumph after they and then the whole tithing thing, he hasn't done him any favors. Yes, Dr G 14:25 people do think he overstepped with his very fancy triumph, and not to mention the whole situation with the 10% and forgetting the promise business. So he does need something at this point to kind of restore his reputation. So handily, he is quite a military expert, so maybe going against the Falsicans is a way for him to gain redemption. Dr Rad 14:50 I think that's the idea, perhaps. Now the city of Falerii is like they itself, also in quite a strategic position. Dr, G, I don't know if you've ever visited that. Actually, I Dr G 15:00 have not, but I hear that it's sort of on a rocky outcrop, so it's pretty easily defensible. Is that correct? I'm Dr Rad 15:07 actually going to quote Ogilvie here, because I have also never been there, but apparently it commands both the Tiber highway and the overland routes to Etruria. Dr G 15:16 Oh, okay, it's at the crossroads. Very important then, yeah, Dr Rad 15:21 but you're right. You're right about it standing on a narrow rocky outcrop, Dr G 15:25 it seems pretty in keeping with this area. So in this similar situation with Veii, is that they're they're built on the top of these nice tooth outcrops that have a good commanding position, so they can look down upon anybody approaching them and have a view over the landscape to see what's going on. So, yeah, makes sense, yeah. Dr Rad 15:45 And that's exactly why Rome wants it, I think, very much like they it's in a strategic situation for trade, like, if the Romans control this, I think things will be better for them, and it's also easy enough to defend once they've captured it. All Dr G 16:01 right, okay, so it's just the tricky part they need to do. Then it's just a little bit of capturing, Dr Rad 16:07 exactly, just the capturing. So at first the Faliscans do it sounds like a very sensible thing in this situation, given what we've just been talking about. And they stay safe behind their walls, safe within the city. Oh, Dr G 16:20 well, hello. I think we'll just stay over here and you can have fun wasting yourselves outside of our city walls. Dr Rad 16:26 Yes, and Camillus, he knows what's that. He decides that he's going to try and provoke them into coming out to defend the territory around them, because he starts attacking the surrounding fields and farms. Dr G 16:40 Okay, this is a pretty classic siege tactic, because you don't actually want to do a siege. You would much rather have an open pitch battle that you can then win and then take the geography. So really, the key for the Faliscans in this scenario is to resist as much as possible the temptation to leave their city. But they do leave Dr Rad 17:00 their city. Dr, G however, they don't want to go too far away. They know they've got defensible walls behind them, so they set up their camp only about a mile outside the walls of their city, thinking that the Romans probably couldn't get too close to them, because it would just be too difficult because of the way that the ground was. It's described as being rough and broken, in other words, uneven, too difficult in the stiletto heels that the Romans would be wearing for such an occasion, and also, the roads up there would be too narrow and steep. So it wasn't going to be easy to get to their camp if they just stayed close enough to the city. Okay? So Dr G 17:38 for Rome to take this camp, they'd really have to spread their forces, really quite thin, to a degree that presumably the Falsicans could easily pick them off exactly. Dr Rad 17:48 Now, Camillus has a prisoner, and he forces this prisoner to act as his guide. The Romans then leave their camp under the cover of darkness, and that enables them when the sun rises the second that it crosses that horizon, bam. The Romans are in a brand new position, and the Faliscans are like, What the hell. How did they get there? I blinked, and they moved, and it was a much better position for an attack. How dare they Yeah. I mean, it must have seemed like, you know, David Copperfield or something like, Dr G 18:22 what is this sorcery? Now, Dr Rad 18:25 this sounds very reminiscent of the tunnel idea. Dr G Camillus had his men working in three shifts so that there was never not work being done building a rampart. And if they weren't building then they were on guard. Dr G 18:38 Okay, okay. So far so good. Very siege, like, all right, yep, Dr Rad 18:42 the Falsicans decided that they're going to try and stop the building from going ahead. But he managed to defeat them, and the Faliscans got so panicked after this loss that they ran right past their camp. Apparently they didn't even see it. They're like, I'm not stopping there. I'm going all the way to the city. Just absolutely panicked, running, wait a minute, Dr G 19:01 surely they would have seen their own camp. Well, Dr Rad 19:04 look, it doesn't say they didn't see their own camp, but they were just like, Nope, that's not good enough. That's not safe enough. I'm heading straight to the city. Dr G 19:10 I need real walls, not these wooden Palisades. Yes, I think Dr Rad 19:15 they sensed that that was going to be the safest place for them, unfortunately, and they were wrong. It's Camillus that we're dealing with here, and many of them are killed before they managed to make it back to the town. Fascinating, I know now what this means is that the camp was captured, and of course, including all the booty, which is handed over to the quaestors. Dr G 19:35 Okay, okay, so if we're talking about a military camps booty, then we're back to like you found a nice pair of leather shoes, again, Dr Rad 19:42 maybe a new sword, although presumably they had the swords with them when they Dr G 19:46 were running, I panicked. I wouldn't be leaving the good stuff in the camp. You know Dr Rad 19:49 now, the soldiers who are serving under Camillus are extremely annoyed by this situation, because first they've had to endure serving under. To Camillus, who's, whilst he's admirable and all, he is extremely strict, and I think we've been getting that sense from him this whole time. I mean, Dr G 20:08 I suppose we could assume that, although it's not something that immediately comes to mind, from what I've read about him so far, he seems very traditional there. Well, if he is capable of getting a military force to dig a complete tunnel underneath a whole city. In order to take it, as is the case apparently, with Veii, then you would need some real discipline with your troops. So exactly I'm willing to allow it. I'm not sure that the sources have necessarily emphasized it, because they do love telling you when somebody is harsh. Dr Rad 20:38 Well, it's not so much harsh. I think he's just strict, and I definitely get that sense from him. I mean, the whole vow thing the way that he had to get the pontiffs involved, and he was like, do we include the land or not include the land? I don't know, guys, you tell me it all seems very much. This is a man who was very traditional and conservative and likes to play by the rules. Okay, Dr G 20:59 all right. Well, he needs to work on his memory. That's all I can tell him. Well, Dr Rad 21:03 the soldiers are extremely annoyed because they're like, look, it's one thing to serve under you in these conditions, but now you're handing the booty over to the questors like you're supposed to, instead of just letting us have it. That's Dr G 21:16 outrageous. Following the rules, I won't stand for it. However, Dr Rad 21:21 under Camillus command, they have, of course, now begun a siege against Falerii. Dr G 21:26 Okay, so they've done the thing where they've encountered the military camp of the Faliscans, and they've managed to push the Faliscans back to the city. So we're now getting into the siege proper, Dr Rad 21:36 yeah, and they've got their rampart constructed thanks to Camillus, so we're ready. Dr G 21:40 And also maybe it makes sense, from Camillus' perspective, to hand over all of the booty to the quaestors, because then he's never again in a situation where he forgets one of his vows and has to try and recoup the 10% from the troops themselves, he can just recoup it from the booty that was taken as a collective and hand it over to the choir stores, and then what remains can be redistributed to the troops. Dr Rad 22:03 Yeah. He's like, hey, Marge, get over here. Take control of this. I can't trust my memory. You need to keep track Dr G 22:07 of this exactly. It might just be a safeguard for him. The Dr Rad 22:13 way that this ensues is very much what you would expect for a siege. We see skirmishing going backwards and forwards. Sometimes the people from the town would raid the Roman outposts as they're camping outside the city, and sometimes they would attack back. And it just led to, like, some low level skirmishing. And it seems like this could obviously go on for a really long time. Essentially, we are once again locked in a stalemate. Dr G, especially because the Faliscans were clever little cookies. They had made sure that they had enough food supplies to last them during a siege inside the wall. So it really could have been a whole another vase situation. Are you ready for another 10 years? Dr G 22:56 Oh, always, yeah. Always up for a 10 year siege. That'd only be 20 years of my life that's fine, however, Dr Rad 23:02 Fortune smiled down upon Camillus as she is want to do. Dr, G, okay, Dr G 23:08 well, I think this might be where our sources might begin to link back up again. So I'm interested to hear where this goes. Let me take you through the drama that I've got when it comes to Camillus besieging of the city of Falerii. I It's been going on for a little while, not 10 years. Thank goodness we're in the first year of the siege. But it seems like there is a particular school master who lives amongst the Falsicans, and he starts walking the boys of the prominent families outside of the city for their constitutional and as time progresses with this siege, these walkings with the schoolmaster become more and more wandering away from the city and Closer and closer to the Roman camp until eventually, he brings the school children to a Roman outpost and proceeds to hand over these sons of prominent families to the Roman soldiers at this outpost, which seems to be a little bit insane. Like, what is this guy doing? And it seems that he wants some sort of reward for giving fuller eye to the Romans. He sees this as a trade option, because these are high value hostages, the sons of the most prominent families of the Faliscans. What more could the Romans want? So these kids are rounded up by the Roman soldiers at this outpost. They're brought to Camillus. And he looks at this situation, and he says, I'm not I'm not having this at all. He's like, this is treachery of the highest degree. There will be no honor for me as. Roman military commander to take the city of Falerii through accepting this proposition from this schoolmaster. Ultimately, he thinks there has to be a better way, and what he does is he has the schoolmaster handed over himself to the sons of the prominent families and tells them that they're allowed to do whatever they like with him, preferably beat him up on the way back to the city, and sends them all back to Falerii with the message that this is not how he ever wants to treat with another city. Under no circumstances is this the right way to do about it. Now, in some accounts of this, Camillus does seek the permission of the Senate in terms of what will be the best thing to do, and in other accounts, he makes this decision himself. Hmm, Dr Rad 25:55 interesting in Livy, it is very much him making this decision himself and just being like, Hey, dude, to the teacher, this is you are a gigantic douche bag, and I have far too much respect for the honor of my enemies and their leaders to enter into any sort of arrangement with an asswipe like you. Dr G 26:17 How dare you bring these children before me? Dr Rad 26:20 Yeah, well, in my account, the only sort of additional detail this is all basically your account matches up with mine entirely. But in my account, the only additional detail that I really have is that the guy who was employed to work with these kids is apparently the resident smarty pants, the foremost scholar, as he has described, which is what you'd expect. He's basically the best teacher with the best education. And what else would you expect for the children of the leaders of Falerii? Well, Dr G 26:53 exactly. And this seems to be a situation where Camillus is given the opportunity to demonstrate his moral, upright self in a new military situation, which has all of the hallmarks at the moment, up until this point of looking like they 2.0 but we've got this brand new sort of situation unfolding, and it becomes such a prominent story that it starts to make it into all sorts of works. It's one of the things that Camillus becomes really quite famous for. So this story also comes up in Valerius Maximus. It is dealt with in Plutarch's Life of Camillus. Frontinus mentions it in his stratagems A guy called Polyanus. Dr Rad 27:44 Sorry, what was that? Again? Dr G 27:45 I wish I was joking, but that's his name, polyanus in his stratagems, and it also comes up in much later sources like Cassius Dio and Eutropius, and also the kind of anonymous Aurelius Victor. So this is the kind of story about Camillus that the Romans really, really like. And I would say that this is a big flag in terms of, like, thinking about, who is Camillus, how does he get received later on, and we know that he's got some sort of niggling troubles with how he is perceived in his life and times, but this seems to be a standout moment in terms of what he is capable of as a thinker and a military strategist, because this really does work out for him. Not only does he send the school children back with the school teacher in tow, with being whipped by the boys, which must have been fun for them, I suppose. But when they get back to the city, the Faliscans immediately want to go into a treaty with Camillus. They're like, we will talk with you, like, let us not do this siege. We're willing to figure out what we can do to get out of this military situation. Because actually, you've been really respectful. You could have just taken all of our sons and you didn't. Let's chat. I Dr Rad 29:16 know it's it's so bizarre for so many reasons. I mean, first of all, let me just say that I'm sitting here quietly sweating as a teacher at the thought that I would ever have my arms tied behind my back and my students given metal rods to beat me with as we walk through some woods. I kind of like think you know, if you go down in the woods today, you're sure of a big surprise. I Dr G 29:40 mean, my only advice to you would be, don't try to hand over the school children to their enemies. You'll be fine. Look, I Dr Rad 29:47 like to think that I have as much morality as Camilla does in this situation, but it is really interesting, because Livy, of course, really leans into this moment. He wants to make a big deal of it. As you say, the Romans love. That. And he when he's talking about what it is he wants to do, he says things like, the Romans would never use their weapons against children, even when they're storming a city, let alone take unarmed children in these sorts of circumstances, we only attack other adults who bear weapons and provoke a fight. And I'm kind of like, okay, Rome, all right, let's be honest. Dr G 30:25 Oh yeah, jets guys, the truth now, yeah, you want to say that you're very fancy and you play by all the rules, and everybody knows that that's not true. I Dr Rad 30:34 love Camilla's code of honor. It is absolutely how it should be, because Camilla's very much sees this as a situation where the Romans and the Philistines are both people of honor, and that there are standards in place during warfare. He actually talks even about this being part of human nature. He says nature has implanted this on both sides. Is code of honor, which all sounds fantastic, and this is probably the stuff that right wing people who gravitate towards the Romans really froth over, but we know it's actually not true in practice in Rome's history, exactly, Dr G 31:10 Rome is notoriously violent to anybody it encounters that it doesn't like, and the fact Camillus is really an exception, rather than the rule here. And there's also that sense that this story is held onto so strongly by the Romans that it makes you wonder if it's more of an invention than anything else, like they're trying to define themselves through stories like this. So to be honest, which Faliscan is going to open the gate of a siege, a besieged city for the school master to go for a bit of a wonder with the kids. Dr Rad 31:45 I know it just sounds so strange. Dr G 31:48 I mean, the city has been thoroughly compromised. If somebody has agreed to do that, I Dr Rad 31:52 know my school would be like, I'm sorry you haven't done a risk assessment. Or if you have, you clearly haven't taken full stock of the danger. Yeah, like Dr G 32:01 you're gonna have to fill out more forms before I can let you out. You know, we're under a siege right now. Gonna Dr Rad 32:06 be way more paperwork. You gotta get parental permission. It's all gotta go on the ball. Dr G 32:11 So I think to myself, there's something up with this story, and it's definitely working in Camillus favor, and it's working in a Roman definition of self capacity as well. The Romans want to believe that they're like this, and what a perfect story to encapsulate the way that they want to see themselves as noble warriors who would never do anything to the young men of prominent families of the enemy. Well, Dr Rad 32:37 unless we forget, there is a bit of a call back here to the whole situation at Veii. I don't know if you remember, but once the Romans were more or less in control of a and they'd broken through the tunnel, remember that Camillus had tried to be relatively humane with the people there as well. Yes, in terms of this idea of you only fight with people who are also holding weapons, if people put down their weapons and they can just be captured, that sort of approach. So this is in keeping with Camillus reputation. But he does actually say in Livy's account that he wants to win the way he won in Veii against the Faliscans, and he wants to do it with honor, the Roman way by dint of courage, toil and arms, Dr G 33:25 very fine Roman qualities, yeah, Dr Rad 33:28 which, of course, is something that the Faliscans also apparently value as a truan people. And as soon as they hear it, as you say, they are so flawed by Rome's integrity that they just lie down, rip off their clothes and say, oh my god, Camillus, just take me. Now. We surrender Dr G 33:44 the city. It's yours. Dr Rad 33:49 Camillus, of course, says, butcher clothes back on. Ma'am. I need to ask the Senate for permission to take this city. Well, Dr G 33:56 the thing is that they don't actually take the city. In the end, from what I can tell, what they agree is that the Faliscans will pay Rome a sum of money, and that sum of money will be considered to have closed the military deal. So effectively, the Falsicans are giving Rome the booty that they would have won through violence, and then Rome goes home. Dr Rad 34:17 That's true, as in my account, the way it all plays out is that Camillus says, well, thank you so much for surrendering to me. Really appreciate it. And they do a little fist bump, and then Camillus sends the request to the Senate. When the request goes before the Senate, they actually have envoys from Falerii who say, Yes, we are very happy to hand ourselves over. But let us be clear, it is all thanks to Camillus, because apparently all the people in Falerii, particularly the leading magistrates, were dead against this idea of ever surrendering to Rome. They said we would rather go down like they go down in flames, than willingly hand ourselves over to Rome or declare P. Peace against this particular enemy, but Camillus actions have completely changed their mind. They're just like mind blown. This guy could have taken an easy victory, but instead, he put his ethics first. Just come and take whatever you want, arms hostages the city, it is all yours. We shall be faithful to you and live under your rule, because you guys are clearly awesome, because you produced this man. Wow. Dr G 35:27 Okay, so how to get the Faliscans to turn from enemy to fan girl? And it's like, just send the school kids back. Dr Rad 35:34 Yes. Was it all a ploy all along? Did the Faliscans willingly send out the kids because they were like, You know what really goes for some fresh produce about now? Dr G 35:47 Well, you are 100% Dr Rad 35:49 right. Dr G, the Falsicans are indeed ordered to pay the Roman soldiers salaries for that year so that no Roman had to pay the tax, which apparently was what was funding the military, pair of soldiers, even though we're not entirely sure that that was happening. Oh, Dr G 36:05 I see. Oh, they're starting to weave all of these details together into a fabric that might be just half truths. Interesting room interesting before I move on, because I do have some other details about this year. I'm wondering if there are any more details that you have about the Falsicans and what has been going on there? Well, Dr Rad 36:23 certainly we can start to break it down a little bit more in terms of how this all came together. It is possible, as you say, that Camillus did capture Falerii, and that was the basic story that the Romans knew, and that at a later point, it got connected with this story of a Faliscan school master, and maybe that's how this story came to be, because, as you say, doesn't 100% add up in terms of the way everyone is acting and the way that Camillus talks about this notion of honor the details that are included in various accounts on the Roman side. It does sound to some academics like they are kind of Greek, and it might be something to do with the fact that the Faliscans did have contact with Greek people. You know, they're in that region. It's possible that they had indeed adopted a sort of Greek education system, perhaps, and that that's what they're talking about with the particular education system that's going on here, where you have one learned school master in charge of everyone's children. Dr G 37:32 We've adopted the Greek school, and it's peripatetic, and so they must wander. That is the rule. Yes, Dr Rad 37:39 exactly. But apparently, if you think about what Camilla says about this whole situation, it kind of might be borrowing a little bit from Plato in his Republic. Okay, some of those ideas. Yeah, I'm open to that fascinating. But certainly what we're seeing here, if we look at the larger story, we're seeing Rome become more and more of a player in central Italy, because we just have more and more territory resources being opened up to them. And basically the Tiber Valley is kind of theirs now, yeah, Dr G 38:11 and I think this is where a little piece of information from Diodorus Siculus does come in handy, because he says that in addition to this conclusion of the peace with the Faliscans. Simultaneously, Rome is also waging war on the aqui eye yet again, and that they've also sent out a colony despite the arguments about, will we colonize Veii, they have apparently also sent a colony to a place called sutrium. And this is an ancient town in what is now modern Viterbo. So we're talking about a place that is to the north east of Rome. And we're talking about Etruscan territory again. It also, like many of these southern Etruscan towns. Is located on a tufa Hill, and has a history of Etruscan culture in its archeology and then later Roman influence. So it definitely falls under Roman sway at some point. But he also tells us that this colony was expelled by the enemy, the enemy, being unnamed, but involving people from Verrugo, who is another one of these places that has come up for the Romans a few times, and there's been tussles over verugo. So Rome has its military fingers extending in many directions at the same time at this point, and this seems to be an increasing change that has come about through the adoption of the military tribunes with consular power, because they've just got more top military men to command soldiers. But these other things aren't getting anywhere near the same kind of airplay as what we're hearing about some of these stab. Out moments from Camillus. So I think it's interesting that it what you say about them controlling the Tiber Valley at this point, because they do seem to be actively extending and pressing to the north in various directions, both east and west, just trying to secure everything about that area for themselves. So really, taking all of that sort of southern Etruria and militarily, and whether they're winning all the time, it's not clear, but they certainly are pushing continuously at this point, absolutely, Dr Rad 40:34 we can clearly see that Rome has become very expansionist in this turning of the century period, you know, just before we headed into the three hundreds. And now that we're in the 390s we can very much see that that is their policy, whereas previously, it's been very much about what is happening in Rome, and they're more or less just fighting people when they have to interestingly. Dr, G, I'm going to point out a little detail here. I didn't mention this once before, I think in probably one of our episodes on the conquest of a but did you notice that one of Camillus important victories during this campaign happened at dawn? Dr G 41:10 At dawn? Yes, because Dr Rad 41:13 remember, some academics have suggested that Camillus was actually a mythical character who became sort of humanized and became a human figure, because he is very closely associated with deities like Apollo and also Mater Matuta, who are associated with the sun and the dawn, and a lot of his major military moments happen at dawn as well. Well, Dr G 41:42 you know, maybe he likes to wake up early. Maybe he's one of these 5am bros. I don't know. Look. I Dr Rad 41:48 mean, he seems very traditional and conservative. So I would not put it past him to be a morning person, which I definitely am not. So I'd never be accepted in Rome. I am Dr G 41:57 definitely a morning person. So I'm happy for Camillus success waking up and doing things before the sun gets up is great, and if he's doing things on the cusp of dawn, even better. So, you know, people are starting to wake up, and then they're horrified, being like, Oh no, he's arrived already. I don't even I'm still in my pajamas. Camillus Dr Rad 42:19 also might be a figure in a wall painting that we haven't mentioned for quite some time, because it's usually a wall painting that we bring up in connection with the seven kings of Rome. But do you remember a tomb painting the Francois tomb at Volsci? Well, Dr G 42:36 I'm not going to say that. I do, but I'm open to having it described to me. Dr Rad 42:39 Well, basically, there have been several figures that have been theoretically connected with some of the people that we've talked about. So for example, Servius Tullius, maybe being the person in this tomb painting called Macstrna, the Vipinas brothers. And we've also got potential reference to a Tarquin family member on this tomb. It's hard to know, obviously, because there's so many question marks about a trust and culture and about how exactly these names would translate. But there is also a figure in this wall painting called Marce Camitlnas. Ooh, Dr G 43:14 okay, I can see the similarities coming through now. Yeah. Dr Rad 43:18 So certainly some people have wondered if this, again, if it represents something to do with, you know, mythological people, or people of legend, and Camillus maybe, is somehow woven into that. It's really interesting. Certainly, the name Camillus suggests someone who is extremely pious, because that word, Camillus can also be used to refer to a young boy who served priests during rituals. So that connection with religion is potentially there. It might be that Camillus is made into a bit of a historical personage by being given the various actions of maybe some real furious family members, and that that is, again, how this sort of legend is created, but it is all extremely tenuous and theoretical. Here. Not everybody gets on board with this whole idea, but it's interesting because the Francois tomb, of course, is Etruscan, and of course, we're talking about his connection with conquering important intruscan cities and outposts. Dr G 44:27 Yeah. I mean, I do have a slight degree of skepticism that at this point in Rome's history, we're still dealing with myth and legend, because we've had a century or more of various figures that seem to be clearly families, even if those families are sort of extending their lines back a little bit, we've got all of this evidence to suggest that there is a burgeoning political culture at Rome and. There's clear evidence archeologically for expansion during this period that the idea that we're still dealing with myth and legend seems maybe a little bit too much like if you had said to me at the very start of the Republic, if we were still in like 509, or the 490s and this figure came up, I'd be more inclined to be like, sure, we might be dealing with, like, a little bit of legend, a little bit of myth, some of the old stories coming through. But it feels like we're in a much more firmly historical period at this point, even though our sources are still giving us what feels like moral tales and things like that. We've also got things that are going to come up spoiler alert for next year, the census, we do have real records by the looks of it, and at some point we have to decide, does it count as history, or is it just a story, or is it that hazy nexus between both where, just like we can't know all of the details about most of these figures, should Camillus be any more speculative than the other people we've been talking about for the last 20 years? And I'm not sure that he should. He doesn't seem out of kilter with other ideas about Rome and how it operates. Somebody had to have broken the siege at Veii. Why not this guy? Absolutely, Dr Rad 46:27 I think it's very much a chicken and the egg sort of situation with this particular tomb, because the issue is that it was created at around this time. So it's interesting in the sense that we have so little from the Etruscan point of view. Unfortunately, most of the stuff that we have that is written down in Etruscan culture that's managed to survive, it doesn't tell us narratives about their past. So we really don't know how they would have told the story of their interactions with Rome. And the reason why, I suppose you might associate it with the sort of myths and legends. Side of things is that it depends on how much you believe in what happened during the Regal period. Because if you kind of accept that this might be telling a story about interactions between Rome and Etruria, it depends on whether you think Servius Tullius and the Tarquins are. How real are they, you know, and having Camillus mixed up in that story. I mean, it makes sense, because he is part of the story of interactions between Rome and Etruscan places. But it is that question of, well, if the if you think that those people from the Regal period are mythical, though, does it mean that Camillus is also a mythical figure who's figured into this story? Or can you have both, you know, historical elements and mythological elements. But then again, you could accept that Servius Tullius and the tarquins were also very real. We certainly felt like they became like the Roman kings became more real as time went on as well. So there's a lot of questions about this story, and we don't know what the meaning of these particular tomb paintings are. But certainly it's just interesting to note that Camillus might potentially have been represented in some sort of creation of a story about contact between Rome and Etruria from an Etruscan point of view. Dr G 48:14 Yeah, I think that's absolutely fascinating. So thank you for reminding me of this piece of evidence, because I know we, as you were going through the names, yes, we have talked about this before, but it's been a while. So Dr Rad 48:26 it has been a couple 100 years. You know, returning Dr G 48:28 back to Camillus, being a part of it, I think, is fascinating. So what it tells us? I'd say we're not entirely sure. The fact that it tells us some things incredibly interesting, absolutely, and Dr Rad 48:41 it's also it's just that possibility. It's the same thing with Servius Tullius and the Tarquins. We have no idea if there is a definite connection between these people that we hear about in the Roman narratives and the people who are in this tomb painting. But it's such an intriguing idea that there is a connection in terms of what you were saying as well. I think about the idea of dealing with myths and legends, I totally know what you mean. It feels very historical the time period that we are in now. But we also know that there is still a lack of perhaps reliable narrative material that people like Livy are using. They're often having to connect to the dots themselves in order to construct its history. And Camillus becomes so important in terms of how later people want to use him and want to imagine him. We see people like scipionus, we see Augustus. We see Caesar take him as a role model, and so him becoming an exemplar. It's not so much that he's necessarily, I suppose, mythological, but certainly that his reputation becomes somewhat embellished, because he becomes this exemplar of particular Roman virtues at moments just like this one. Yeah, Dr G 49:50 exactly. And I was thinking about this as well in terms of, we're still in a period for the Romans of oral history transmission, rather. Other than historiography. So it is quite plausible as well that somebody like Camillus does some incredible stuff. Stories are told about him, and the retelling of those stories become more and more like exemplar through the process of them being retold to the point that when people do start writing down the stories, they have already crystallized into a kind of mythic tale through the process of ongoing, generational oral tradition. And I think that might be another possibility for Camillus, yeah, Dr Rad 50:39 and that's obviously something that's so part of these elite Roman families that would have strong oral traditions as well about what their family members had done exactly. Let's pause it here. Well, Dr, G, that means that it is time for the Unknown Speaker 50:56 passion pick you. Dr G 51:04 Mmm, the partial pick. All right, we're going to be judging Rome against its own standards, and they can win up to 50 gold Roman Eagles through the five categories, Dr Rad 51:20 and we're only judging half the year because Dr G, I have got more information on 394 so this is on, like the first part of 394 the Camillus part. Goodness Dr G 51:28 me. Well, that's the next episode. Is going to be a wild ride for me, because I'm fresh out of evidence. So I'm looking forward to what happens next in 394 but for now, let us judge part one, the Camillus side of 394, Dr Rad 51:42 what's our first category? Dr, G, military Dr G 51:45 clout. Dr Rad 51:47 All right. Well, I mean, I think this is pretty good. It's kind of up there with Veii for me. I mean, it's not a 10 year siege, sure. And I wouldn't say that Falerii is quite as important as they but it's still significant enough. Now Dr G 52:00 there is a military component to the Roman victory over Falerii. I but ultimately they take it through negotiation, I would say, rather than military force. I mean, they do set up a siege, yeah, Dr Rad 52:17 but there was that whole moment where the Falsicans were driven screaming past their camp to the walls of the city, and lots of them were killed, and they got to take the booty. Dr G 52:26 Well, we wouldn't want to forget that part of it, but we wouldn't. We also have to take account of things like they're also waging war against the aqueai. Apparently, Dr Rad 52:39 they are, and that's that, but that comes in the next part of my year. Oh, the Camillus part for me. Okay, Dr G 52:45 well, I've already mentioned their war, so I'll give them a point for that. How about a six? Okay, Dr Rad 52:51 well, okay, all right, Dr G 52:55 feel like I'm being pretty generous, considering they the way that they won the Falerii situation, hey, Dr Rad 53:02 hey, that took some serious military ethics for them to win against the Faliscans. Thank you very much. But Dr G 53:11 wait, because I think the very things that you're wanting to give them points for, for military clout, they're gonna get really strong scores for diplomacy and weirdos. So just hold your horses. Dr Rad 53:24 Diplomacy, my four white horses. Hold Dr G 53:26 your four white horses, but don't use the bit of triumph at the risk of offending people. Dr Rad 53:32 That's a deep cut for people who have listened Dr G 53:37 to it is in jokes only for our very niche listeners, thank you. Thank you. That's right. The second category is diplomacy. Dr Rad 53:44 Okay, fine, tell me, what do you want to give them for diplomacy? I want to give them 10. Wow. Okay, well, yeah, I mean, I feel like Dr G 53:56 I have never seen any Roman be so diplomatic. They sent back all of the potential hostages. Said This is outrageous. One kid didn't hold on to a single kid. They're like, send them all home, because that's where they belong with their families, and whip that teacher while you do it, young men. So yeah, so much diplomacy. And in some accounts, Camillus does seek advice from the Senate about how to proceed, which you could see as a bit of a diplomatic moment for him. And also, we've got the envoys from the Falerii being like, well, we weren't ever going to give up, but you've managed to persuade us Speaker 1 54:38 they're gonna give you. Never gonna let you down. Well, Dr G 54:42 yeah, they're so floored by what Camillus has done. They're like this changes everything we we give you the city. Tell us what you need. Dr Rad 54:53 Yeah, you're right. This is probably about the best diplomatic moment we might ever have. Dr G 54:58 I I'm happy to hang my hat. Dr Rad 55:00 Hated the people of a because it had been a situation that had dragged on for so long, but he's still restrained and respectful of human life as much as a Roman can be in those situations, in that example as well. So this, to me, is just in keeping with that episode. Yeah, Dr G 1:00:15 exactly. So on that score, I'm probably giving this about a seven, maybe Unknown Speaker 1:00:20 a seven. Dr Rad 1:00:23 Wow. Okay, why not higher, dare I ask? Well, Dr G 1:00:26 I mean, he's not showing off any wounds in front of everybody. So, you know, it's not, it's not classic, virtus. He Dr Rad 1:00:33 kept his shirt on. You heard it here first everybody. Dr, G doesn't want to give Camillus 10 out of 10, because he kept his shirt on correct shirts Dr G 1:00:42 Shirts Off for Virtus. print that should be printed on the T shirts. Dr Rad 1:00:48 I was gonna say that has to be our next t shirt. Dr G 1:00:52 That's, that's the slogan I'm running with, and I hope it works out for Dr Rad 1:00:56 me. Yeah, I'm literally looking on to red bubble right now. Dr G 1:01:01 Excellent, excellent. All right. Dr Rad 1:01:03 Well, look, I still think, Okay, I'm still gonna fight you on this. I still think he deserves an Dr G 1:01:06 A, all right. Well, I'm gonna be open to persuasion there, sure. Why not? Okay, thank you. You were outraged. I was like, why that's a great score. Dr Rad 1:01:15 Well, considering that we've been mostly giving zeros, sure, but nonetheless, I still think that this is not going to be repeated too many times. Dr G 1:01:23 I think you're right about that. All right. This leads us to our last category, the citizen score. Okay, Dr Rad 1:01:29 now, perhaps not quite as good for the Romans on this front, because it's a bit middling, to be honest, a bit I mean, they do Dr G 1:01:38 have to go to war on a number of fronts. So for the average Roman who is asked yet again to leave their harvest to go and stab some of their neighbors, I mean, it's not the best time. And Dr Rad 1:01:51 they don't get booty. They don't get the booty. Remember, it goes to the quaestors first. Dr G 1:01:55 Well, they don't get the booty. But do they do get paid? They do and Dr Rad 1:01:59 by the enemy. Could it be any, Dr G 1:02:02 yeah? I mean, those, those dollars, are pretty delicious when it comes from the feller. So all in all, it's probably a five, yeah, Dr Rad 1:02:13 because don't forget as well that we also have this ongoing issue back at home over this whole idea of a colony at Vay, which Okay, the pleb seemed to have cooled off on the idea at this moment in our narrative. But nonetheless, there is still conflict and tension about it. Yeah, okay, so we're saying a five. Dr G 1:02:33 Yeah, we're in a situation where things could be better. Yeah, I'm saying a five, all Dr Rad 1:02:39 right. Dr, G, that means that the Romans receive a grand total of 29 out of 50 golden eagles. Oh, that's pretty impressive, I know. And I really honestly, normally, I count the score on my fingers, to be totally honest, because it's so low, I never need more than 10. So that was really putting me to the test. Oh, they've had a shocker recently. But, you know, well, actually, they haven't. I think it's just, I think it's just a fact, for a long time they haven't. We had that brief moment with Veii where it was pretty good, but see, even then, because we had to split it up into multiple episodes, they weren't getting high scores every single episode. So Dr G 1:03:19 now Rome's back. Camillus is back. Rome's back. It's all happening. It is all Dr Rad 1:03:24 happening. So Dr, G, I look forward to talking with you again and closing off this surprisingly epic year of 394, BCE, Dr G 1:03:32 looking forward to it. Dr Rad 1:03:40 Music. 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