Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SKULL IDed: Long Island serial killer suspect Rex Heuerman's office just blocks from victim 7 apartment

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SKULL IDed: Long Island serial killer suspect Rex Heuerman's office just blocks from victim 7 apartment · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.
0:13
Speaker 2: A major development in the so called Long Island serial
0:17
Speaker 2: killer case. In the last days, yet another woman has
0:22
Speaker 2: been positively identified, a thirty four year old woman. What
0:29
Speaker 2: more do we know and how long till her body
0:33
Speaker 2: will be linked to Rex Huerman, now charged in the
0:37
Speaker 2: murders of three of the so called Gilgo Beach four.
0:41
Speaker 2: But there are many other bodies in this particular case.
0:46
Speaker 2: Karen Vergatta is the most recently named victim. Her legs
0:51
Speaker 2: were found several miles away at Davis Beach. Her skull
0:58
Speaker 2: is found at Gilgo where the other victims have been
1:02
Speaker 2: disposed thrown away like trash on a remote stretch of beach.
1:07
Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
1:10
Speaker 2: being with us here at Fox Nation in series XM
1:13
Speaker 2: one eleven. What do we know? First of all, take
1:18
Speaker 2: a listen to our friends at NBC.
1:20
Speaker 3: Even though Aqued serial killer Rex Heureman sits in jail
1:22
Speaker 3: awaiting trial, there are still many unanswered questions in the
1:26
Speaker 3: Gilgo Beach murders case. At least eleven bodies were discovered
1:29
Speaker 3: on Long Island over a decade ago, and hereman is
1:32
Speaker 3: accused of killing three of the women.
1:34
Speaker 2: Today a breakthrough.
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Speaker 4: We are here to announce that as part of the
1:37
Speaker 4: Gilgo Tesk Force re examination of all the evidence in
1:41
Speaker 4: the case, we are able to identify Fire Island Jane
1:44
Speaker 4: Doe as Karen Vergatta with.
1:47
Speaker 2: Me an all star panel. But first I want to
1:49
Speaker 2: go to a special guest, Joseph jack coloone former NYPD sergeant,
1:54
Speaker 2: cold case investigator and author of the Cold Case Handbook
1:59
Speaker 2: and the Credit Investigation Investigative Function, A Guide from the Investigators.
2:04
Speaker 2: You can find him at Joseph Jackalone dot com. Can
2:09
Speaker 2: we just get real just a moment. We're hearing Rex
2:13
Speaker 2: Huerman is not being linked to this nearly identified skull.
2:19
Speaker 2: But what's the likelihood. What is the likelihood, Joseph, that
2:23
Speaker 2: another killer just happened to hide a skull so close
2:28
Speaker 2: in proximity to the other victims.
2:31
Speaker 5: I don't find that actually practical.
2:34
Speaker 6: From the very beginning, I was a firm believer in
2:37
Speaker 6: one serial killer not to using the same location to
2:41
Speaker 6: dump their bodies.
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Speaker 2: So, yeah, they came up with that theory. Where did
2:46
Speaker 2: that come from?
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Speaker 6: Well, the theory, actually I've been floating for a long
2:50
Speaker 6: time now is that the individual who was irresponsible for
2:53
Speaker 6: all these killings changed his mo over the years due
2:56
Speaker 6: to technology, so there was a reason he had at
2:59
Speaker 6: this member bodied In the beginning, he picked up these women,
3:03
Speaker 6: probably eng who were street walkers at the time, and
3:05
Speaker 6: was worried about somebody saw on them and get into
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Speaker 6: his car.
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Speaker 2: Okay, wait, did you say street walker? I haven't heard
3:11
Speaker 2: that since I've read it in a novel in the
3:13
Speaker 2: tenth grade, but I like it. Feel free to continue
3:15
Speaker 2: to say street walker, you mean as they now say
3:18
Speaker 2: sex worker. I don't think we're supposed to say hooker
3:20
Speaker 2: or prostitute anymore. But you know what you say, Tomato,
3:24
Speaker 2: I say, Tomatow. What I don't like about it, Joseph,
3:27
Speaker 2: is that somehow their lives are devalued because they're a hooker.
3:30
Speaker 2: These are also mothers, sisters, daughters. You know, I don't
3:37
Speaker 2: care what my daughter did. I still love her. I
3:39
Speaker 2: may not like what she does, but I love her
3:42
Speaker 2: so much. And for them to just be slated off
3:45
Speaker 2: as they're sex workers, they're a lot more than that.
3:49
Speaker 2: But that said, go ahead, Why you think it's one
3:52
Speaker 2: serial killer that changed em as I'm very interested in this.
3:56
Speaker 5: Well, so you had to pick them up off the street.
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Speaker 6: So the issue that come down to is that he
4:01
Speaker 6: was in need for disposing the bodies by dismembering them
4:03
Speaker 6: because he was worried about it.
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Speaker 5: So even if you look at.
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Speaker 6: The teacher's case, where you know not only was she dismembered,
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Speaker 6: but he was trying to remove a tattoo, he wanted
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Speaker 6: to make everything impossible for the police to identify these
4:15
Speaker 6: women so that he could keep on going doing what
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Speaker 6: he was doing. And then along comes the Internet, and
4:20
Speaker 6: alone comes bernaphones, and he is now able to what
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Speaker 6: he believes to be anonymous where he can pick up
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Speaker 6: women on the Internet without having to worry about anybody
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Speaker 6: tracking him down, and then use a Berna phone to
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Speaker 6: communicate with him. So there was no need for him
4:36
Speaker 6: at that moment to have to dismember them. And that's
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Speaker 6: why we could all have agreed in the very beginning
4:41
Speaker 6: of this case that the kill go for the poor
4:43
Speaker 6: women found in close proximity wrapped in burlap, that they
4:46
Speaker 6: were all killed by the same person.
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Speaker 5: The other cases are going to do.
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Speaker 2: There are a lot more bodies. Joseph, what what was
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Speaker 2: that last time?
4:54
Speaker 7: I said?
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Speaker 6: The rest of the victims are going to be much
4:57
Speaker 6: more difficult to prove because not only are they old,
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Speaker 6: but we don't know if there's any DNA available like
5:02
Speaker 6: we saw with.
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Speaker 2: The Gilgo For interesting, Jenn Smith is joining me, Chief
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Speaker 2: investigative reporter, dailymail dot Com. Hold on, Jen. One quick
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Speaker 2: question to Josh Zeeman, filmmaker and producer. And you may
5:15
Speaker 2: wonder why am I speaking to a filmmaker and producer. Well,
5:19
Speaker 2: he's the director of the Killing season, and I've got
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Speaker 2: to say it's incredible. It's an eight part series on
5:27
Speaker 2: the Gilgo killer, and this existed before Rex Huerman was arrested.
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Speaker 2: Zeeman has been on the case for a long time
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Speaker 2: and tying to victims back in the area from twenty seventeen.
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Speaker 2: Josh and Zeeman, I'm very intrigued by what Joe Jack
5:49
Speaker 2: Cologe just said that based on technology, the Long Island
5:55
Speaker 2: serial killer changed his MO. I agree with that, But
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Speaker 2: I also think that he got away with killing and
6:03
Speaker 2: dismembering and then decided that he didn't really need to
6:07
Speaker 2: dismember anymore. Maybe he got comfortable in his killings. Maybe
6:11
Speaker 2: he thought, wow, nobody's caught me yet, Hey, I'll just
6:15
Speaker 2: keep going. I'm not I don't know if it was
6:18
Speaker 2: just technology or his own psychopathy. What do you think,
6:22
Speaker 2: Josh Zieman, I.
6:24
Speaker 8: Would say probably both. I mean, you know, it's just
6:27
Speaker 8: so interesting. It takes a lot of work to dismember
6:30
Speaker 8: a body, right uh. And we know that women some
6:33
Speaker 8: of those dismembered bodies were found in plastic bags. The
6:36
Speaker 8: question is where did he do that? So I think yes, definitely.
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Speaker 2: Okay, wait wait wait wait wait whit white. I know
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Speaker 2: about the burlap bags. We all know about the burl
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Speaker 2: At bags, and that one of his rex human's hair
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Speaker 2: was allegedly found in one of the burl At bags
6:53
Speaker 2: with the dead body. But what can you tell us
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Speaker 2: about plastic bags.
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Speaker 8: Well, let's look at Karendravada Verdada. She was found or
7:02
Speaker 8: at least her legs tragically were found in a plastic bag.
7:06
Speaker 8: That bag was floating in the water, so you know
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Speaker 8: that's one example. Jessica Taylor, whose torso was found in Manorville,
7:15
Speaker 8: was found on plastic sheeting. There was another victim found
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Speaker 8: in a rubber maid. This is Peaches, who was found
7:22
Speaker 8: in Hempstead Park. Was found in a cooler. So you
7:27
Speaker 8: know he's wrapping the body parts tragically in some kind
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Speaker 8: of something plastic, plastic sheeting. So you know, we have
7:35
Speaker 8: to assume that this is a very complicated process. So
7:39
Speaker 8: if he gets lazy or comfortable or what have you,
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Speaker 8: you could see why he wouldn't. I mean, he's since
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Speaker 8: ninety six he hasn't been caught, so you know, he's
7:49
Speaker 8: got ten.
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Speaker 5: Years of not having been caught.
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Speaker 8: So yeah, maybe that changed part of his m But
7:54
Speaker 8: I also believed Joe is right with regards to the technology.
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Speaker 8: It's so interesting because sex workers were actually one of
8:02
Speaker 8: the first people to go on the Internet and really
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Speaker 8: use it for messaging on message boards, putting ads together.
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Speaker 8: If you go to the history of the Internet, sex
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Speaker 8: workers were an early early adopters.
8:16
Speaker 2: You know, I'm thinking about everything you're saying. I could
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Speaker 2: listen to the two of you, Josh Zeeman and Joe
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Speaker 2: Jacqueline all day, but I have an incredible panel joining
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Speaker 2: us to you. Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the
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Speaker 2: Cold Case Research Institute, star of a new hit podcast,
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Speaker 2: Zone seven. You can find her at Coldcasecrimes dot org. Cheryl,
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Speaker 2: no word can make me happier than plastic. Right now,
8:44
Speaker 2: when you have a plastic sheeting, plastic wrap a plastic
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Speaker 2: bag in water, even a cooler that is very likely
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Speaker 2: made of plastic, of hard plastic. It's such an excellent
9:00
Speaker 2: hondo it for fingerprints, even if it's been in water.
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Speaker 9: Absolutely, a lot of times people think that they're going
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Speaker 9: to wrap something or en case something and that's going
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Speaker 9: to destroy evidence. A lot of times it actually preserves it.
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Speaker 9: And what we're seeing here when you're talking about a
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Speaker 9: skull being found in one place, torsos in another, legs
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Speaker 9: in another, the transport is key to me. This person,
9:26
Speaker 9: this killer had a way to not only dismember, but
9:30
Speaker 9: to individually transport those body parts to different locations. That's
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Speaker 9: critical to understanding who this person is.
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Speaker 2: Okay, I asked you about plassic and you're telling me
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Speaker 2: about transport.
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Speaker 5: Why.
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Speaker 9: But it's critical because that's how he's transporting them. They
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Speaker 9: weren't just put in there and put on the outside.
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Speaker 9: They transported them this way. And that's what I'm saying
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Speaker 9: is critical. Hair, fingerprints, other biological material owned the victim
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Speaker 9: would be key.
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Speaker 2: Him Gallagher joining me medical examiner out of Florida, lecturer
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Speaker 2: University of Florida Medical School and founder of the International
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Speaker 2: Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference and you can find them
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Speaker 2: at Pathcare at med dot com. Doctor Gallagher, thank you
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Speaker 2: so much for being with us. I've got so many
10:19
Speaker 2: things to talk to you about because Karen Vergata's skull
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Speaker 2: is found at Gilgo, her legs are found at Davis Beach.
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Speaker 2: But what I want to ask you right now is
10:31
Speaker 2: we've all heard the phrase oil and water. They go
10:35
Speaker 2: together or they don't mix like oil and water. The
10:39
Speaker 2: reason that fingerprints on for instance, plastic, which is such
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Speaker 2: a great medium, a great conduit for evidence, is because
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Speaker 2: of the oil in the human body. When you touch something,
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Speaker 2: it's the oil markings that show the swirls on your fingertips.
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Speaker 2: That's how it works. And on plastic, even if it's
11:04
Speaker 2: been submerged in water, that oil may very well still exist.
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Speaker 10: Well that's shoe, Nancy. The body, especially the skin, produces
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Speaker 10: a large amount of oil for the lubrication and the
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Speaker 10: suppleness of the skin to keep it that way. But
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Speaker 10: that oil is excreted through every pore on the body,
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Speaker 10: and if that finger comes in contact with any surface,
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Speaker 10: especially a plastic surface, a smooth surface.
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Speaker 5: That oil will be deposited.
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Speaker 10: That print will be very readily available for identification using
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Speaker 10: the proper techniques. So plastic is always a good thing
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Speaker 10: to find at the scene, especially when you're trying to
11:44
Speaker 10: identify somebody or a suspect.
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Speaker 1: List time stories with me. It's a grace.
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Speaker 2: Straight out to Jen Smith, Chief investigative reporter dailymail dot com. Jan,
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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. What happened?
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Speaker 11: Well, I mean, we're just moving through this investigation bit
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Speaker 11: by bit. This most recent discovery of Karen Bergasa being
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Speaker 11: the woman whose body was found. You know, this takes
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Speaker 11: it all the way back, this investigation to nineteen ninety six.
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Speaker 11: That really changes the game in terms of Rex human
12:29
Speaker 11: in the case against him. We have to think about
12:31
Speaker 11: where he was in nineteen ninety six, what did his
12:34
Speaker 11: life look like? Could he be responsible for all of
12:38
Speaker 11: these deaths? And we do know that he was living
12:41
Speaker 11: in Massapeople Park back then. So this most recent development,
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Speaker 11: positively iding this Jane Doe, who's the poor woman who
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Speaker 11: was dismembered all the way back in the nineties, really
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Speaker 11: broadened the scope here.
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Speaker 2: Guys, I want you to take a listen to this.
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Speaker 3: In twenty ten, police discovered four bodies on Gilgo Beach.
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Speaker 3: Rex Kuerman is accused of killing three of them. Police
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Speaker 3: believed at the time they had a serial killer. In
13:06
Speaker 3: the search for more victims. They found Vergata's skull just
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Speaker 3: over five months later, but no id was made until
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Speaker 3: Suffolk County officials assembled.
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Speaker 1: A task force.
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Speaker 3: The DA says that no one reported her missing. Her
13:18
Speaker 3: family may not have been looking for The FBI relied
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Speaker 3: on that large DNA database that now exists.
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Speaker 2: To identify her.
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Speaker 12: Youerman has not been charged in Karen Forgotta's murder. Here's
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Speaker 12: the road that led to her identification. In August twenty
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Speaker 12: twenty two, a DNA profile was developed for genealogy testing.
13:37
Speaker 12: In September twenty twenty two, the FBI loaded the profile
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Speaker 12: into a genetic genealogy database. In October, a Vergata relative
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Speaker 12: was identified and asked for a DNA swab.
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Speaker 2: You're hearing our friends at NBC and pix eleven, So
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Speaker 2: that is how she, Karen Ergotta was identified and given
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Speaker 2: a name. So many yars later. Remember she goes missing
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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six. She lived in Manhattan on forty
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Speaker 2: fifth Street. She goes, she goes missing on Valentine's Day
14:09
Speaker 2: ninety six. What happened? She was not reported, missing her
14:16
Speaker 2: name not heard until now. Another curious angle before I
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Speaker 2: get into the complexities of the DNA to doctor Angela Arnold,
14:26
Speaker 2: renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at
14:29
Speaker 2: angela Arnold MD dot com. Doctor Angie, I'm going to
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Speaker 2: give you an anecdotal scenario and then you can explain.
14:39
Speaker 2: I'm sure in many cases, and I didn't understand it
14:44
Speaker 2: until I was on I don't know my seventh eighth,
14:47
Speaker 2: ninth murder prosecution. I noticed that very often victims would
14:53
Speaker 2: be covered up, that'd be wrapped in something that have
14:57
Speaker 2: a blanket over their face, sometimes something as rudimentary as
15:03
Speaker 2: putting leaves or limbs over the face, specifically, sometimes the
15:09
Speaker 2: whole body. If a shallow grave wasn't created and used
15:14
Speaker 2: as a disposal, the victim would be just somehow covered
15:19
Speaker 2: in some way. Not always, but very often. I've even
15:23
Speaker 2: covered a case where a woman is found dead in
15:26
Speaker 2: her home, in her bed and a wicker trash can
15:33
Speaker 2: had been put over her head. What does that mean?
15:37
Speaker 2: Because here many of the victims are wrapped in plastic,
15:42
Speaker 2: one is in a cooler. What does that mean psychologically?
15:48
Speaker 13: I think it signifies a couple of different things, Nancy.
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Speaker 13: One of the things that it could unconsciously signify for
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Speaker 13: the murderer is a finishing, a completion of what he
16:01
Speaker 13: has done, and a burial, which is a completion of
16:05
Speaker 13: the act of murder. Okay, So, and it's unconscious. They
16:10
Speaker 13: do this unconsciously to finish what they have started. The
16:14
Speaker 13: covering of the faith is to make the person who
16:20
Speaker 13: has been murdered seem less human to the murderer.
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Speaker 5: Okay.
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Speaker 13: So it's it's kind of a two pronged thing, but
16:28
Speaker 13: it's but I know it sounds weird to people because
16:31
Speaker 13: somebody would dismember and murder these people horribly, but then
16:37
Speaker 13: unconsciously they want to bury them to finish it. It's
16:43
Speaker 13: to me, it's very much like keeping a souvenir afterwards.
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Speaker 13: So they bury the body, they complete what they have done,
16:54
Speaker 13: so in their mind it's finished. Okay. And of course,
16:58
Speaker 13: like I said, the covering of the safe is to
17:01
Speaker 13: make them less human to the serial killer.
17:05
Speaker 2: Make them less human. Hold on, I need to write
17:07
Speaker 2: that down. Make victim less than human, okay with me.
17:11
Speaker 2: A veteran trial lawyer, BERNARDA. Via Lona, worked in homicide
17:19
Speaker 2: Bureau with a prosecutor on the guild go okase. Now
17:23
Speaker 2: that's interesting enough right there. But this woman knows her
17:27
Speaker 2: way around a courtroom. And you know, you don't hear Jackie.
17:30
Speaker 2: If you notice, lawyers don't really compliment each other very much.
17:33
Speaker 2: So when you hear one lawyer say about another one
17:36
Speaker 2: that's a fine lawyer or that's a veteran trial lawyer,
17:40
Speaker 2: that is a huge compliment. She's a New York criminal
17:44
Speaker 2: defense attorney. Now sadly you can find her at Vilona
17:49
Speaker 2: Law dot com. BERNARDA. You know, I'm listening to what
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Speaker 2: doctor Angie Arnold is saying from her point of view
17:56
Speaker 2: as a psychiatrist, and I'm not finding fault with anything
17:59
Speaker 2: she said. But there's something else, and I don't quite
18:03
Speaker 2: know how to describe it. I've experienced it, and I've
18:06
Speaker 2: seen literally thousands of other people experience it as well.
18:12
Speaker 2: When you as you had to do as did I,
18:15
Speaker 2: or presenting case to a jury or investigating homicide, you
18:19
Speaker 2: go to the crime scene, you see the dead body.
18:22
Speaker 2: You go to the autopsy, maybe you see the dead body.
18:25
Speaker 2: But I've noticed that when jurors see the crime scene photo,
18:29
Speaker 2: they see the dead body very often, it's very visible.
18:35
Speaker 2: They WinCE, they close their eyes, they look away. I
18:39
Speaker 2: think the killer, even though they're the one responsible, they
18:43
Speaker 2: did it. I think it's hard for them to look
18:47
Speaker 2: at the dead body, much less if the victim's eyes
18:49
Speaker 2: are open, looking right back at them. But there's something
18:52
Speaker 2: about looking at a dead body. Nobody wants to do it,
18:56
Speaker 2: except maybe you Gallagher. But that's a whole other can
18:59
Speaker 2: of worms. I think, what do you think about that,
19:02
Speaker 2: BERNARDA As a reason for covering the body and wrapping
19:05
Speaker 2: them in plastic, and the links that killers go to
19:08
Speaker 2: to hide the body, to cover it up.
19:11
Speaker 14: Thank you for having me, Nancy, and thank you for
19:13
Speaker 14: your kind words. So you got to think, Nancy. As
19:15
Speaker 14: prosecutors and even as a trial attorneys, when you're putting
19:18
Speaker 14: in these crime scene photos, these autopsy photos, you're trying
19:22
Speaker 14: to bring the jury back to the scene. You want
19:25
Speaker 14: to make them feel as if they were present, as
19:28
Speaker 14: if they were eyewitnesses to the homicide itself. So it's
19:32
Speaker 14: hard for the jury to see that, but you want
19:35
Speaker 14: to relay that opportunity and relaye those feelings to a jury.
19:39
Speaker 14: In terms of the killer and actual killer looking away,
19:43
Speaker 14: I think it's probably I think it's something of I
19:45
Speaker 14: don't think it's regrets, because they come back and do
19:48
Speaker 14: it again anyway, Just how Rex Human came back and
19:51
Speaker 14: did it again and again and again. Is it something
19:54
Speaker 14: that maybe at that point it feels some.
19:56
Speaker 5: Kind of remorse, I don't know.
19:58
Speaker 14: Is it a reflection?
20:00
Speaker 2: Wow, he's not remorse, because if he felt remorse, he
20:06
Speaker 2: wouldn't keep doing it exactly. But I do know there's
20:09
Speaker 2: something instinctual, instinctive about recoiling from a dead body. Okay,
20:16
Speaker 2: you know, Josh Zemon, there's only one thing I don't
20:18
Speaker 2: like about you. You don't jump in enough. How many
20:21
Speaker 2: times have I told you guys that this is not
20:24
Speaker 2: high to you windsor Castle and jackalone. You're always so outspoken.
20:30
Speaker 2: I don't get it, Josh Zemon. There's so much happening
20:34
Speaker 2: right now, but I think one thing I would be
20:36
Speaker 2: looking at and I want to hear from you, how
20:38
Speaker 2: you think this fits in. I believe that I still
20:43
Speaker 2: haven't even gotten to the DNA that now the prosecutors
20:47
Speaker 2: have gone back direct Human and asked for another bugle
20:50
Speaker 2: or buckle squab swab taken out of the mouth. Josh,
20:55
Speaker 2: don't you believe that right now. Investigators are investigating now
21:00
Speaker 2: Forgotta advertised. However she advertised, It's not like they went
21:06
Speaker 2: to elementary school together with Heureman. How did she advertise?
21:10
Speaker 2: Can it be reconstruction, reverse engineered and find whether Hureman
21:17
Speaker 2: contacted her? I don't know if those records can be found.
21:21
Speaker 2: I don't know what existed in ninety six, certainly not.
21:25
Speaker 2: You know the websites, the escort sites that exist today.
21:30
Speaker 2: But how do you think they're going back to nineteen
21:34
Speaker 2: ninety six and putting this back together again? I mean,
21:36
Speaker 2: the obvious choice, Joss is find DNA on this woman
21:40
Speaker 2: that links her to Hureman. But what if they can't.
21:43
Speaker 8: That's a tough one. Nineteen ninety six so many years ago,
21:46
Speaker 8: twenty six years ago. And by the way, Hureman would
21:49
Speaker 8: have been thirty two at the time, which is pretty
21:51
Speaker 8: right on the money.
21:53
Speaker 2: But by the way, hey, hey, hey, hey, not everybody
21:55
Speaker 2: speaks serial killer, So what do you mean by that?
21:58
Speaker 2: Thirty two?
21:59
Speaker 8: Right on the thirty two average male age of a
22:02
Speaker 8: serial tillers starting first kill is twenty eight and a half,
22:06
Speaker 8: so thirty two is pretty close to that. You know,
22:10
Speaker 8: we have to assume that he didn't. When we're talking
22:12
Speaker 8: about the Gilgo Beach four, it didn't start killing in
22:14
Speaker 8: his forties, So you know, ninety six kind of makes
22:18
Speaker 8: perfect sense. Going back to one of your earlier questions.
22:23
Speaker 8: You know, look, he's believing torsos in places where they.
22:26
Speaker 5: Can be found.
22:28
Speaker 8: He's doing that with Jessica Taylor, He's doing that with peaches.
22:32
Speaker 8: So I think in this case we might not be
22:34
Speaker 8: dealing with covering as a way to kind of dehumanize
22:37
Speaker 8: the victim. But I think we also might be dealing
22:40
Speaker 8: with a way that he's pulling law enforcement away from
22:44
Speaker 8: his quote unquote and I hate to use this term,
22:46
Speaker 8: but I know nothing better. Trophy garden in Gilgo Beach.
22:50
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, trophy garden. You're referring to all of the
22:55
Speaker 2: remains as the trophy garden. Yes, wow, So you're thinking
23:02
Speaker 2: that when he rides by Gilgo that's when he looks
23:06
Speaker 2: at the trophies on a shelf.
23:08
Speaker 8: Absolutely. I mean he went there as a child. We
23:11
Speaker 8: know he went there and went duck hunting with his father.
23:14
Speaker 8: He continues to duck hunt. You know, this is a
23:17
Speaker 8: special place for him.
23:18
Speaker 2: Okay, everybody being unnotice I'm stealing that from Zeeman. I'll
23:22
Speaker 2: probably spout it off everywhere. Gosh, his trophy garden, I
23:29
Speaker 2: was thinking, Josh and all of you serial killer experts
23:32
Speaker 2: jump in. When I think of a trophy, I think
23:35
Speaker 2: is of a piece of jewelry, a pair of underwear,
23:39
Speaker 2: an item, a driver's license, something that belonged to the victim,
23:44
Speaker 2: a hair ribbon, a brett, a ring. I didn't think
23:49
Speaker 2: of his trophy garden being Gilgo Beach itself. That literally
23:59
Speaker 2: put chill down my spine. Okay, I can't believe it's
24:03
Speaker 2: taken how many minutes for Cheryl McCollum to interrupt I mean, Cheryl,
24:07
Speaker 2: please come on. I know the man is in an
24:09
Speaker 2: eight part documentary, but go ahead and interrupt him.
24:13
Speaker 9: What No, I want to tag team with him. So
24:18
Speaker 9: I have a theory of why the victims are facing north.
24:22
Speaker 9: When you're an architect, just like a crime tinge investigator,
24:25
Speaker 9: your drafts, your first drawings are north centered. So that's
24:30
Speaker 9: how he would think of this. If he's doing a
24:33
Speaker 9: project drawing versus a drafting, then what he's doing if
24:38
Speaker 9: he's placing these victims as you all are saying in
24:41
Speaker 9: this garden to me, those are like buildings. He has
24:45
Speaker 9: set them up like a city scape. That's why they're
24:49
Speaker 9: all in a line down the road.
24:51
Speaker 2: It's so smart. Keep talking, but keep talking like a
24:55
Speaker 2: city scape.
24:56
Speaker 14: Exactly.
24:57
Speaker 9: So you think of victim one, two, three, four.
25:00
Speaker 13: They're all in a line.
25:01
Speaker 9: They're all together down this road where he has placed them.
25:06
Speaker 2: Again, do nore wow, Zaemon, what about it?
25:10
Speaker 5: You know?
25:11
Speaker 8: To me, it's all about hunting. You know, he was
25:13
Speaker 8: a hunter. He had two hundred and ninety what six guns?
25:17
Speaker 8: He was an instructor. Jilgo Beach is a hunting area.
25:22
Speaker 8: Manorville if we assume that he also is the Manorville butcher.
25:25
Speaker 8: If you go and look at Manorville, it's surrounded by
25:28
Speaker 8: hunting clubs. You know, to me, these are trophies like
25:32
Speaker 8: tragically again on a wall, or the fact that the
25:36
Speaker 8: four women were laid out dolls on a shelf.
25:40
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, you know, doctor Angie Arnold. When I'm listening
25:46
Speaker 2: to everybody on this panel, BERNARDA, You, Cheryl, Joe, Josh,
25:52
Speaker 2: doctor Gallagher, Jen Smith, it almost sounds like a murder
25:59
Speaker 2: mystery where the killers are absolutely diabolical. But when Cheryl
26:04
Speaker 2: described this as setting their bodies out like a cityscape
26:08
Speaker 2: along a street, and Zeeman Josh Deemon said, like dolls
26:13
Speaker 2: on the shelf. It's hard to believe this is real.
26:18
Speaker 2: This is really happening.
26:21
Speaker 6: Something to the I believe the only jewelry that was
26:25
Speaker 6: found was on the toddler. So none of the other victims,
26:29
Speaker 6: recall correctly and jod justkin correctly on this had jewelry
26:32
Speaker 6: on them. So we don't know if if he kept
26:35
Speaker 6: anything from any of those victims too.
26:37
Speaker 2: That's Joe jackalone jumping in. Okay, go ahead, Nancy.
26:40
Speaker 13: What I was going to say is I am just
26:43
Speaker 13: intensely interested in studying this man and imaging his head.
26:47
Speaker 2: Here, Lord, you know what, save your studies for later.
26:52
Speaker 2: Right now, I'm trying to solve a serial killing. I
26:55
Speaker 2: think that because so much time has passed since Karen
27:00
Speaker 2: Vigatta was murdered back in ninety six, we're gonna have
27:05
Speaker 2: a very very hard time connecting her time stories with
27:23
Speaker 2: Nancy Greece. Jen Smith is joining me, the chief investigative
27:32
Speaker 2: reporter for deallymail dot com. The other three, uh, the
27:36
Speaker 2: three of the four Gilgo Beach four. Theirmos are so
27:41
Speaker 2: incredibly similar. They're in burle at bags. The defendant's wife's
27:46
Speaker 2: hair has been transferred to them. One of his hairs
27:51
Speaker 2: is in the bottom of one of the burlap bags.
27:53
Speaker 2: I mean, they're very obviously all the same. The MOO changes.
27:57
Speaker 2: In those cases we have DNA. We also have burner
28:02
Speaker 2: phones and connections to the victims that can be proven
28:07
Speaker 2: extrinsically outside of DNA or like thereof. In this case,
28:13
Speaker 2: there's not that kind of technology, Jen Smith, there's.
28:16
Speaker 11: Not, Nancy. But just going back to the similarities between
28:20
Speaker 11: the Gilgo Beach four and then the previous victims, beginning
28:24
Speaker 11: with Karen Bergatha. There is one other victim who we
28:28
Speaker 11: briefly mentioned, Peaches, the toddler. Peach's mother. We don't know
28:32
Speaker 11: her name. She is still a Jane Joe. Tragically, after
28:35
Speaker 11: all these years, the first portion of her remains were
28:38
Speaker 11: actually found in nineteen ninety seven. That's only a year
28:41
Speaker 11: after Karen Bergasa. So sure the timeline is a little
28:46
Speaker 11: bit more stretched out. And then we have you know,
28:49
Speaker 11: Valerie mac Jessica Taylor, and Shannon Gilbert that those come later,
28:54
Speaker 11: but we do have a kind of linear chronology here.
28:58
Speaker 11: We have nineteen ninety six, nineteen ninety seven, two thousand
29:03
Speaker 11: and three, two thousand and seven, eight nine, and so forth.
29:08
Speaker 11: I mean, it's going to be harder sure to tie
29:11
Speaker 11: rec Hureman too these earlier victims, but it is not
29:15
Speaker 11: so far apart that you can't deduce a pattern.
29:19
Speaker 2: I want to talk about Peaches. She had a very
29:22
Speaker 2: distinctive feature, a tattoo on her chest of a heart
29:28
Speaker 2: shaped bitten peach, hence the name Peaches, and she has
29:34
Speaker 2: remained a Jane Doe. I've seen the photo of the
29:39
Speaker 2: tattoo over and over and over, and the question who
29:44
Speaker 2: is the girl with a peach tattoo? Now, tattoos are
29:49
Speaker 2: very often easily tracked. Who gave her the tattoo and
29:55
Speaker 2: who can help identify her? Right now, I think our
29:59
Speaker 2: best chance of connecting Humorman to Karen Regatta is going
30:06
Speaker 2: to be DNA, since we're not going to have social
30:09
Speaker 2: media connections again. She was identified by a you know,
30:16
Speaker 2: Jenn Smith. I'll let you explain how she was identified
30:18
Speaker 2: with DNA through an ancestral family tree, and then investigators
30:25
Speaker 2: got a current day living relative to give a swab
30:30
Speaker 2: and they could identify who she was based on time
30:32
Speaker 2: of disappearance and location. You explain.
30:35
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's a strategy that we've seen multiple times. It
30:38
Speaker 11: was actually how they were able to treat Brian Colberger
30:40
Speaker 11: in the Idaho killings. They built a genetic called a
30:45
Speaker 11: genetic profile, and they worked their way backwards with a
30:48
Speaker 11: very long process. They work their way backwards from anyone
30:53
Speaker 11: who could have supplied DNA to publicly accessible database one
30:59
Speaker 11: of the ancestry dot com twenty three kneed jetmatch type databases.
31:05
Speaker 11: This will produce hundreds, if not thousands of potential matches
31:11
Speaker 11: people you might share a tiny part of DNA with,
31:15
Speaker 11: and then investigators start the kind of old fashioned quote
31:19
Speaker 11: unquote policework of looking at among all those people who
31:23
Speaker 11: could have been living in the right place at the
31:26
Speaker 11: right time, and so forth. With Karen Vergatta, this is
31:29
Speaker 11: really interesting because in terms of finding a living relative
31:33
Speaker 11: for her, we know that she had two sons. When
31:36
Speaker 11: she died, she had a hard life. Like many of
31:40
Speaker 11: these other victims, she'd actually put the boys up. They
31:44
Speaker 11: had been adopted by someone else. So she did have
31:48
Speaker 11: genetic relatives, but none that were you know, frantically immediately
31:53
Speaker 11: looking for her at the time, and they actually found
31:58
Speaker 11: her name. They identified her last year. It was Algus
32:01
Speaker 11: twenty twenty two, and only know has this become public
32:05
Speaker 11: fifth week falling the arrest of Rex Heureman, but they
32:08
Speaker 11: held her identity back publicly for a year.
32:11
Speaker 5: I think they know who they are. I think they
32:14
Speaker 5: know who she isw and the reason why it was.
32:18
Speaker 9: I think they know the identity of teaching teachers.
32:21
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and oh yeah, I think they did.
32:24
Speaker 5: Take sure.
32:24
Speaker 2: Guys, I want you to take a listen to our friend,
32:26
Speaker 2: Stephanie Gosket NBC.
32:27
Speaker 3: Karen Vergotto was thirty four years old, living in Manhattan
32:30
Speaker 3: and working as an escort for Remains were discovered in
32:33
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six on Fire Island off the coast of
32:36
Speaker 3: Long Island. Police couldn't identify her. Nearly fifteen years later,
32:40
Speaker 3: Vergatta's skull was found here in a wildlife sanctuary, miles
32:43
Speaker 3: from the other remains. The DA did not link for
32:46
Speaker 3: Gotta's death to Rex Heureman. He also didn't say how
32:49
Speaker 3: her skull wound up here in these bushes, so far
32:52
Speaker 3: away from the rest of her body. What we do
32:54
Speaker 3: know is that where I'm standing is about four miles
32:57
Speaker 3: from Gilgo Beach and more.
33:00
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our friends at Inside Edition.
33:02
Speaker 15: Karen Vergotta disappeared on Valentine's Day, nineteen ninety six. She
33:07
Speaker 15: is one of nine women whose remains were found on
33:10
Speaker 15: an isolated stretch of beach on Long Island, New York
33:13
Speaker 15: beginning in twenty ten. Architect Rex Huerman has been charged
33:17
Speaker 15: with murdering three of the women. Authorities would not comment
33:21
Speaker 15: if he's a possible suspect in Virgotta's disappearance, but their
33:24
Speaker 15: paths could have crossed. Virgotta lived on this block in
33:28
Speaker 15: Midtown Manhattan. It's just nine blocks from where Rex Ywerman worked.
33:33
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, Please, how many times have I said there
33:37
Speaker 2: is no coincidence in criminal law, all the time period.
33:41
Speaker 2: His office, which is apparently the hub of his prostitution
33:45
Speaker 2: activity and contacts, is nine blocks for where Karen Ragotta lived.
33:52
Speaker 9: There are no coinstances here in this case at all. Nancy,
33:56
Speaker 9: not his phone called, not his internet searches, not where
34:00
Speaker 9: the victims were recovered from, not where they would last
34:03
Speaker 9: seen from. All of these things are going to be connected.
34:07
Speaker 9: And I just want to point out to everybody, we
34:09
Speaker 9: worked cases like Ted Bundy and Wayne Williams without the
34:14
Speaker 9: benefit of DNA. Just because we don't have DNA from
34:18
Speaker 9: him on a case does not mean they're not going
34:20
Speaker 9: to be able to.
34:20
Speaker 13: Link him to victims.
34:22
Speaker 9: When you have MS, when you have geography, when you
34:25
Speaker 9: have victims facing north, when you have all the victims
34:28
Speaker 9: being sex workers, all the victims nude except for the
34:31
Speaker 9: Asian male, all of those things are going to give
34:34
Speaker 9: you a totality of what was happening and who was
34:37
Speaker 9: doing it.
34:37
Speaker 2: Also, guys, we are learning that the district attorney has
34:40
Speaker 2: asked specifically for more DNA. The DA is going to watch,
34:47
Speaker 2: hopefully to video and photograph Huerman's DNA being extracted. When
34:55
Speaker 2: I say extracted sounds I don't know, difficult. It's not.
35:00
Speaker 2: It's a buckle or buckle squab, which is like a
35:03
Speaker 2: really long Q tip being brushed along the inside of
35:06
Speaker 2: your mouth. That's all it is. I've done it myself.
35:09
Speaker 2: I have watched DNA being extracted from a murder defendant
35:14
Speaker 2: when the first sample was not protected by chain of custody.
35:19
Speaker 2: It matched him, but I knew I couldn't get it
35:21
Speaker 2: into evidence no chain of custody, so I had to
35:24
Speaker 2: have it done again, and I watched it myself and
35:29
Speaker 2: made my investigator, Ernest, watch it as well, so I
35:32
Speaker 2: would have a witness. Ernest then took it himself to
35:36
Speaker 2: the crime lab and handed it directly to the scientist.
35:41
Speaker 2: And that is what we're gonna have right now. Guys,
35:44
Speaker 2: take a listen to our cut one six four.
35:47
Speaker 16: Well, that's a standard, that's a standard practice in cases.
35:50
Speaker 16: So it's been reported that we got what is known
35:54
Speaker 16: as abandonment samples. So typically after you make an arrest
35:59
Speaker 16: on a case and you have the you have the
36:04
Speaker 16: defendant in custody, you take swabs just to confirm that
36:07
Speaker 16: the abandonment sample DNA profiles are accurate.
36:11
Speaker 2: That is the Suffolk County District Attorney speaking right Tieranny
36:16
Speaker 2: to News Day. I want to talk about that DNA
36:21
Speaker 2: sample straight out.
36:23
Speaker 14: To and Nancy, this is Bananda.
36:25
Speaker 7: Yes, it's just quite common Nancy, Yeah, definitely, this is
36:29
Speaker 7: quite common in all the cases when our prosecuted cases
36:32
Speaker 7: in Brooklyn and a homicide cases and even in other
36:34
Speaker 7: regular cases where there was DNA there was a DNA
36:38
Speaker 7: sample that was left where that needs to be tested,
36:41
Speaker 7: you will get a direct DNA extraction from the defendant
36:45
Speaker 7: because it makes it number one easier to explain to
36:48
Speaker 7: the jury, like, look, we compared and develop a DNA
36:51
Speaker 7: profile directly from the mouth of the defendant as opposed
36:55
Speaker 7: to from a pizza crust. So that way it can
36:58
Speaker 7: be easier to explain to the jury, and you have
37:01
Speaker 7: a direct hit from the defendant himself. So what the
37:04
Speaker 7: prosecution did in this case is that they fouled emotion
37:07
Speaker 7: to compel the taking of of a DNA sample from
37:10
Speaker 7: Rex Hueman. You're going to be up to the defense
37:12
Speaker 7: whether he's going to contest that, but in a case
37:14
Speaker 7: like this, a judge is going to grant that compelling
37:17
Speaker 7: of the taking of the DNA. What's not common is
37:20
Speaker 7: the video taping here in New York of the DNA
37:23
Speaker 7: sample being taken from the subject itself. But that is
37:27
Speaker 7: a great idea, especially since you want to show to
37:30
Speaker 7: the jury to try to get a conviction that rex
37:33
Speaker 7: human DNA is a direct match to what they found
37:37
Speaker 7: at the scene.
37:38
Speaker 2: Wow, that was a mouthful and I agree with every
37:41
Speaker 2: single word that BERNARDA. V Alona just said. Cheryl McCollum,
37:45
Speaker 2: the prosecutor doesn't want to stand for the jury and says,
37:47
Speaker 2: here's the pizza crust that we took out of the
37:50
Speaker 2: trash purportedly bearing DNA of Rex Huerman. We think this
37:57
Speaker 2: is the crust that he just bit. Noo oh, you
38:00
Speaker 2: don't want to do that. See, just like Coburger, I
38:03
Speaker 2: think Bernardo said that in Coburger, Brian Coburger, who is
38:08
Speaker 2: now charged with four murders in the Idaho University slaves.
38:13
Speaker 2: They saw the dad throughout trash. They get into the
38:18
Speaker 2: trash at the dad's home of the Poconos and they
38:21
Speaker 2: match it to the knife she found at the scene
38:25
Speaker 2: of the crimes, and the DNA says that the only
38:28
Speaker 2: person that could have left that DNA at the crime
38:32
Speaker 2: scene would be the biological son of the donor, who
38:36
Speaker 2: was Coburger's father. He only had one son, Brian Coburger.
38:40
Speaker 2: They then go based on that and they get a warrant,
38:44
Speaker 2: a search warrant based on probable cause to do a
38:48
Speaker 2: buckle swab to get that one and five octillion, five
38:52
Speaker 2: point three octilian match. That is exactly what's happening here.
38:57
Speaker 2: You don't want to stand in front of a jury
38:58
Speaker 2: and go, hey, here's the pizza I found spit on it,
39:02
Speaker 2: and we're pretty sure it's Rex. He rooms spit. Uh uh.
39:07
Speaker 9: That's right, because the first thing the defense attorney's gonna
39:09
Speaker 9: say is, you didn't see him eating that pizza. The
39:12
Speaker 9: pizza delivery man could have sneezed on that crust. You
39:16
Speaker 9: don't know. You could still have a killer out there.
39:18
Speaker 9: So it's really important that they get the new DNA
39:23
Speaker 9: and then cross check it with what they have to
39:25
Speaker 9: show that it absolutely is him. And I'll pay something, Nancy.
39:28
Speaker 14: When I do this as a.
39:29
Speaker 9: Working crime scene investigator, I always have a detective or
39:33
Speaker 9: an officer with me and I get them to turn
39:35
Speaker 9: on body camp. There's gonna be no question who I
39:38
Speaker 9: took the swab from or how he was treated during it.
39:42
Speaker 2: That is so well put. Right now, guys, we are
39:46
Speaker 2: waiting on the latest. As many of us have deduced Peaches.
39:52
Speaker 2: Another Jane Doe with a peach tattoo, we believe has
39:55
Speaker 2: been identified. Why would a skull turn up on Gilgo
40:00
Speaker 2: Beach where the other victims are if not the handiwork
40:05
Speaker 2: of Rex Hureman. We wait as just as unfolds. Goodbye friend,