Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1041 - Screens Suck

Transcript

#1041 - Screens Suck · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: time poor parent. They just once answers mew okay, Kylie.
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  Speaker 1: So you know how last week we had a chat
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  Speaker 1: about the doctor's desk. We went through some really great
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  Speaker 1: scientific studies, some stuff that relates to parents and how
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  Speaker 1: it can be better parents. You remember that, I do
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  Speaker 1: you know how we do that? Once a month.
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  Speaker 2: I feel like you're about to tell me you're going
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  Speaker 2: to cheat.
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  Speaker 1: Just two studies have popped up on my desk, but
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to wait to talk about They're just
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  Speaker 1: too good.
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  Speaker 2: But they're all going to squeeze another doctor's Desk in.
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  Speaker 1: It's not actually a doctor's Desk episode. We're going to
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  Speaker 1: talk though about how screens are ruining our lives. Mah, sorry,
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  Speaker 1: that was a lot, wasn't it. I know that I
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  Speaker 1: make a lot of noise about screens and kids, and
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  Speaker 1: we've got this great website, Unplugged childhood dot org, where
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  Speaker 1: we're encouraging every parent to get on there sign the
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  Speaker 1: pledge keep kids off social media until the end of
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  Speaker 1: primary school or a minimum delay their access to smartphones.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much there Unpluged Childhood dot Org
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  Speaker 1: we'll linked to that in the show notes. But these
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  Speaker 1: two studies are highlighting a couple of other really important
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  Speaker 1: things about kids and their executive function, and the kids
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  Speaker 1: and their emotional regulation, and just the way we're using
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  Speaker 1: screens in our family. So it's it's a doctor's desk,
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  Speaker 1: but it's not. It's really a conversation about why we
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  Speaker 1: need to be better with our screens, and I'm leaning
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  Speaker 1: on two new studies to do that. Is that okay?
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  Speaker 1: But before we do that, I wanted to share something
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  Speaker 1: with you because it's something It's just it grabbed me,
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  Speaker 1: It captured me, and I thought, oh my goodness. Every family,
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  Speaker 1: every family needs to teach this to their kids. This
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  Speaker 1: was a TikTok that showed up sorry at Instagram, that
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  Speaker 1: showed up from always Dot upper Dot Elementary. This is
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  Speaker 1: a school teacher in the United States talking with her
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  Speaker 1: elementary school class about the way we respond to people's
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  Speaker 1: physical appearance, and she absolutely nails it. Half listen to this.
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  Speaker 3: If somebody can't change something about themselves in thirty seconds
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  Speaker 3: or then you shouldn't be mentioning.
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  Speaker 2: It to them.
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  Speaker 3: If you say, hey, your shoes untied, or hey, you
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  Speaker 3: have a little fuzzy on your shirt there, or if
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  Speaker 3: you say, hey, your pants are unsicked. I wanted to
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  Speaker 3: tell you privately because I didn't want you to feel embarrassed.
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  Speaker 3: But it happens to all of us. If you tell
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  Speaker 3: someone something like that, they can change those things in
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  Speaker 3: thirty seconds or less. But if you comment if someone
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  Speaker 3: with's hair color or hair texture, or hairstyle or body,
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  Speaker 3: they cannot change that in thirty seconds or less about themselves.
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  Speaker 3: Your words have power. If you say something that someone
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  Speaker 3: can't change in thirty seconds or less, you say those things,
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  Speaker 3: try to fix it. You try to apologize, You tried
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  Speaker 3: to take the words back, take it back, take it back,
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  Speaker 3: takeet back, and you try to undo what you said,
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  Speaker 3: undo what you did. But it's something they couldn't change
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  Speaker 3: about themselves, and so it's very messy. You can't totally
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  Speaker 3: take those words back. You can't totally fix it. Your
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  Speaker 3: words have power. Your words matter. If you walk out
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  Speaker 3: of this room spreading kindness to the people around you,
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  Speaker 3: it's spreading love to the people around you. That is
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  Speaker 3: what truly makes the difference.
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  Speaker 1: No, isn't that great?
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  Speaker 2: I love that. I love that, And what everyone else
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  Speaker 2: doesn't see is the visual of when she talks about
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  Speaker 2: when you say all of these things that people can't change,
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  Speaker 2: She's using a toothpaste and she's squeezing it out as
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  Speaker 2: she talks about all of the different things you might
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  Speaker 2: say to somebody. And then when she talked about it
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  Speaker 2: being messy, it was like trying to you know.
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  Speaker 1: That you yeah, yeah, so, I just I know it's
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  Speaker 1: got nothing to do with what we're about to talk about,
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  Speaker 1: but it was so done good that I had to
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  Speaker 1: share it.
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  Speaker 2: It does from a social media point.
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  Speaker 1: Of view, Oh, I guess, so, okay.
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  Speaker 2: We're constantly bombarded with things that are so harmful and
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  Speaker 2: hurtful to people, and in most cases you probably wouldn't
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  Speaker 2: even think to say it in person.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 1: I had a realization the other day when it comes
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  Speaker 1: to social media, and as you know, I've been off
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  Speaker 1: socials now for a couple of months, like just not
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  Speaker 1: even touching it. Don't even have the apps anymore, don't
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  Speaker 1: log in, don't know how to log in anymore, lost
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  Speaker 1: my login and it's perfect, I'm not going to do it.
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  Speaker 1: But I was thinking about the way socials work, and
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  Speaker 1: what I realized is that if somebody says something really inflammatory,
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  Speaker 1: outlandish kind of whooh, crazy cuckoo, and we're at a barbecue,
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  Speaker 1: or we're down at the beach hanging out with family
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  Speaker 1: and friends or whatever it is, or you're at a
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  Speaker 1: school function wherever, at work, if somebody says something really outlandish,
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  Speaker 1: everyone looks at them funny and goes, hm, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to avoid that person, like weird, not okay, just not okay.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe somebody might quietly try to pull them back into
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  Speaker 1: line in an appropriate way when people aren't watching or something.
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  Speaker 1: But when you do that on social media, the exact
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  Speaker 1: opposite happens when you say that outlandish crazy thing, But.
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  Speaker 2: You're not at a barbecue with your friends. And that's
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  Speaker 2: the difference. Well, once you're on social media, you're opening
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  Speaker 2: yourselves up to groups of people that you wouldn't normally
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  Speaker 2: choose to hang out with.
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  Speaker 1: Beyond that, though, the algorithm amplifies those voices. It draws
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  Speaker 1: everyone in and people feel compelled to get involved and
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  Speaker 1: have their opinions and blow up. And I think that's
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  Speaker 1: part of a loss of civility. It's just it's messy anyway.
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  Speaker 1: So it's toothpaste coming out of tube, So it's saying
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  Speaker 1: things about people's appearance that they can't change in thirty seconds.
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  Speaker 1: I just think it is a great rule. So when
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  Speaker 1: I see somebody, the last thing I want to say
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  Speaker 1: is that you look great or haven't you done something like?
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  Speaker 1: Commenting on people's appearance is just not what we do anymore.
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  Speaker 1: Right in twenty twenty four, we know better. And that's
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  Speaker 1: a perfect analogy as to why unless they can fix
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  Speaker 1: it in thirty seconds because they've got some letters in
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  Speaker 1: their teeth, don't say it. Don't say it.
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  Speaker 2: Are you serious?
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  Speaker 1: What do you mean?
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  Speaker 2: You have to tell them if they've got letus in.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. If they've got that, then let
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  Speaker 1: them know because they can fix that in thirty seconds
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  Speaker 1: or less. That's what a caring person does. But if
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  Speaker 1: they've gained weight, you don't say, well, you're looking healthy,
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  Speaker 1: like that's just let's move on. What I want to
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  Speaker 1: talk about with our non doctor's desk doctor's desk episode
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  Speaker 1: is a couple of studies that have come out that
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  Speaker 1: really really grab me. Brand new study research is in
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  Speaker 1: Canada and Hungary set out to examine the impact of
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  Speaker 1: what happens when you provide children a digital device or
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  Speaker 1: distraction so that they can so that you can avoid
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  Speaker 1: their big outbursts. Maybe it's in a shopping center or
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  Speaker 1: a restaurant, or even at home, like a digital pacifier,
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  Speaker 1: a digital dummy to stick in their mouth, so to speak.
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  Speaker 1: Researchers were looking at what happens with their emotion regulation
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  Speaker 1: over time, and.
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  Speaker 2: The works amazing in the moment.
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  Speaker 1: And that's why everyone does it right, like kids screaming
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  Speaker 1: give them the.
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  Speaker 2: iPad would say, it works amazing in the moment.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, what these researchers found. This was a research from
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  Speaker 1: eot Voss laurun University. They said this leads to more
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  Speaker 1: severe emotion regulation problems, specifically anger management problems later in life.
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  Speaker 1: Tantrums cannot be cured by digital devices. Children have to
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  Speaker 1: learn how to manage their negative emotions for themselves. They
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  Speaker 1: need the help of parents during this learning process, not
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  Speaker 1: the help a digital device.
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  Speaker 2: Well, it's a really intense form of distraction right when
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  Speaker 2: our kids are little. One of the best tools we've
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  Speaker 2: used in the past has been to distract them when
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  Speaker 2: you can see that things are starting to build before
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  Speaker 2: they've got to that extent. But this actually marries up
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  Speaker 2: beautifully with the conversation we had the other day in
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  Speaker 2: relation to emotion regulation.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, regulated versus just regulated kids just a couple of
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  Speaker 1: days ago.
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  Speaker 2: They need us to model what it looks like to
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  Speaker 2: actually be able to regulate our emotions when we're feeling
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  Speaker 2: big emotions.
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  Speaker 1: Let me tell you what they didn't study. They had
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  Speaker 1: about three hundred parents with kids between two and five
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  Speaker 1: complete a child behavior questionnaire. They did it once in
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  Speaker 1: their initial period, somewhere around about mid twenty twenty, and
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  Speaker 1: then in mid twenty twenty one, the parents were surveyed again,
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  Speaker 1: and the final analysis pretty much said this digital emotion regulation.
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  Speaker 1: When you give the kids the device a year later,
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  Speaker 1: they display worse anger and frustration management skills. So within
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  Speaker 1: twelve months, if that's our standard way of doing things,
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  Speaker 1: they become more disregulated, not better regulated. You get the
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  Speaker 1: quick fix, but you don't get the long term results.
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  Speaker 1: And that's because the kids aren't learning. They're not learning
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  Speaker 1: to switch on their executive function part of their brain.
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  Speaker 1: They're not learning things like delayed gratification, they're not learning
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  Speaker 1: how to tolerate frustration.
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  Speaker 2: So the conversation we had that the other day was literally,
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  Speaker 2: parents are saying more and more that their children are disregulated,
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  Speaker 2: and based on what we're talking about today, I kind
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  Speaker 2: of feel like there's a pretty significant correlation between the
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  Speaker 2: increase of screen usage and homes and children's emotion regulation.
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  Speaker 1: It's pretty hard to deny that. I think. The other
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  Speaker 1: thing is that as parents, we're struggling a lot with
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  Speaker 1: what I would call tolerable discomfort. So when our children
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  Speaker 1: become uncomfortable, we're not teaching them how to tolerate that
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  Speaker 1: limited amount of discomfort that they're experiencing, but also we're
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  Speaker 1: uncomfortable with the discomfort. So this idea of tolerable discomfort
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  Speaker 1: is something that This is why people have ice baths, right,
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  Speaker 1: This is why people go out and exercise and push
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  Speaker 1: themselves because they make themselves uncomfortable to a tolerable degree
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  Speaker 1: and it builds your resilience. It helps you to manage
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  Speaker 1: difficult situations better. We know that there's all kinds of
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  Speaker 1: positive effects from doing these kinds of things, but it's
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  Speaker 1: not just physiological. It's also psychological.
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  Speaker 2: But I think this is all a result of social
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  Speaker 2: media again as well. Where as parents, we're literally watching
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  Speaker 2: the show real of people's lives and seeing what we
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  Speaker 2: would call perfection in the making, and then we've got
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  Speaker 2: to try and copy that. We've got to try and
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  Speaker 2: meet that standard, and no one can.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's funny about that. You talk to everybody,
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  Speaker 1: it literally everybody says, yeah, no, it's not real. I
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  Speaker 1: know it's a highlight's real. I know that it's a filtered,
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  Speaker 1: curated version of people's lives. Everyone gets that, and yet
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  Speaker 1: we still aspire toward it. There's something in our brain,
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  Speaker 1: something in our psychology that says, but I still want it,
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  Speaker 1: but it's still achievable, but it's still doable, and that's
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  Speaker 1: the great challenge. Anyway. That's the first study. I find
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  Speaker 1: it absolutely compelling, really really interesting. It was published in
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  Speaker 1: Frontiers in Child and Adolescent Psychiatry just recently, and basically,
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  Speaker 1: children who are given devices more often when they have
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  Speaker 1: negative emotions and they're struggling with tantrums, they show less effort,
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  Speaker 1: full control definers, their ability to choose a deliberate response
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  Speaker 1: over an automatic one when they have subsequent negative or
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  Speaker 1: blow up kind of emotions. Just so compelling, so fascinating,
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  Speaker 1: so important. If your kids are having a hard time,
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  Speaker 1: don't give them a smartphone, don't give them a tablet,
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  Speaker 1: don't give them the TV remote, don't hand them the laptop. Instead,
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  Speaker 1: you could give them a hug. And if they don't
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  Speaker 1: want to hug because they're too cranky, say all right,
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  Speaker 1: well while you're experiencing right now is called tolerable discomfort.
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  Speaker 1: I can tolerate it, and you can too. When you
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  Speaker 1: feel like a hug, come get one.
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  Speaker 2: And every kid says, thanks dad for explaining that to me.
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  Speaker 1: Those two words though, tolerable discomfort, they're really really important,
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  Speaker 1: and they help kids to recon eyes that what they're
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  Speaker 1: going through as an emotion, and emotions come and they
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  Speaker 1: go just like waves on the beach, they come up,
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  Speaker 1: they roll back out. I just love that study.
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  Speaker 2: So what's the second set of you want to talk
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  Speaker 2: about today?
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  Speaker 1: So this one is some of your research that shows
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  Speaker 1: why a very very common approach to screen time may backfire.
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  Speaker 1: Number One, our screen time and our kids screen time
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  Speaker 1: is linked. That is, the more time you spend on advice,
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  Speaker 1: the more likely it is that your kids will spend
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  Speaker 1: a similar amount or more on their device. Secondly, and
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  Speaker 1: this is the critical thing that came out of this study.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to share all the results first and then
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  Speaker 1: talk a bit more about it. Using screens for rewards
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  Speaker 1: or punishment is associated with kids using screens more. And lastly,
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  Speaker 1: the research has found that when we have much more
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  Speaker 1: thoughtful conversations around screens, kids set better priorities around their
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  Speaker 1: screen use. I just think it's fascinating. So this whole thing.
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  Speaker 1: If you don't clean up your room, you can't have
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  Speaker 1: a screen. If you don't do that thing, then there
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  Speaker 1: won't be an iPad, there won't be any gaming allowed
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  Speaker 1: when you do that. If you get a good grade
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  Speaker 1: on your homework, you can have more time on the
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  Speaker 1: iPad When you have these conversations with their kids. This
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  Speaker 1: recent study basically says yet backfiring and going exactly the
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  Speaker 1: opposite direction that you want. There's a researcher at the
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  Speaker 1: University of California in San Francisco, Jason Nagata. He and
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  Speaker 1: his colleagues looked at a data set of over ten
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  Speaker 1: thousand twelve and thirteen year olds and their parents to
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  Speaker 1: have a look at the link between how we use
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  Speaker 1: our screens, how kids use their screens, and what's going
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  Speaker 1: on with the whole reward thing. And what they found
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  Speaker 1: was the following number one. A couple of key parental
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  Speaker 1: factors were linked to tweens and teens being on screens
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  Speaker 1: more and using screens in problematic ways. These factors included
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  Speaker 1: number one, how much parents were on screens, Number two,
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  Speaker 1: how much parents use screens at bedtime and at meals,
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  Speaker 1: and number three how much parents use screens to control
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  Speaker 1: kids behavior. Isn't that interesting? The more you're on a screen,
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  Speaker 1: the more you have screens in bed or at meals,
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  Speaker 1: the more your kids use their devices and use them
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  Speaker 1: in unhelpful ways. But the third one is the one
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  Speaker 1: that I want to focus on, and that is just
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  Speaker 1: using screens to control behavior is problematic.
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  Speaker 2: Why is it that if you're going to use a
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  Speaker 2: screen as a reward, that would lead to more screen usage.
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  Speaker 1: I think the best way to describe it is there's
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  Speaker 1: a you know, Alfie Cohne, he wrote Punish by Rewards.
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  Speaker 1: He's one of the most influential people in my life
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  Speaker 1: in terms of having an impact on my early studies
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  Speaker 1: in psychology, and he describes it thus, he says, when
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  Speaker 1: we use rewards and punishment, what we're essentially saying is
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  Speaker 1: if you do this, you'll get that. Do this and
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  Speaker 1: you'll get that and it's the same whether it's a
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  Speaker 1: reward or a punishment.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a positive reinforcement or a negative reinforcement.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I can say do this again and you'll get that,
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  Speaker 1: or I can say if you do this, you'll get that.
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  Speaker 1: That's exactly the same thing. And then he asked the
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  Speaker 1: question when when you say do this and you'll get that,
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  Speaker 1: what are people thinking about? Are they thinking about the
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  Speaker 1: this or are they thinking about the that that?
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  Speaker 2: It's that exactly the emphasis is on that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So if I say tidy up your bedroom and
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  Speaker 1: you can have a mccappy meal, the kids aren't thinking
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  Speaker 1: about the bedroom, which is the valued activity, They're thinking
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  Speaker 1: about the mcappy meal. Why. Well, because that's the thing that.
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  Speaker 2: We've just placed more value we on that item.
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  Speaker 1: Correct, We've elevated the value of the reward over and
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  Speaker 1: above the value of the thing that is is actually valuable.
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  Speaker 1: And so it's the same thing with screens. Whenever we're
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: saying get good grades and you can have screens, a
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  Speaker 1: tidy room and you can X, y or z. The
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  Speaker 1: more that we make screens the reward, the more we
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  Speaker 1: increase the perceived value of that activity. And we already
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  Speaker 1: know from a psychological point of view, the way that
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  Speaker 1: screens are designed and engineered, all the psychological factors that
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  Speaker 1: go into it. They're already insanely compelling, they're already overwhelmingly rewarding.
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  Speaker 1: They're already the ultimate dope, mean dump. And now we
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  Speaker 1: go on at another layer by putting it on a
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  Speaker 1: pedestal and making it the whole to value activity that
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  Speaker 1: they can have once they've done all the other things,
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  Speaker 1: that suddenly don't mean anything at all.
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  Speaker 2: So what about the family though, that literally uses it
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  Speaker 2: as a reward and it is only used very sparingly.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know that there's any family that does that.
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  Speaker 1: I just don't think that that's realistic in twenty twenty four.
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  Speaker 1: I can't imagine that there's a scenario where the screen
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  Speaker 1: is a valued reward and it barely ever comes out.
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  Speaker 1: The screens are ubiquitous, they're everywhere. I'm not sure that
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  Speaker 1: that's happening. Can you think of a time or a
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  Speaker 1: place where that's relevant.
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  Speaker 2: We did an episode a while back now and Jalo
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  Speaker 2: said that she only allowed her kids to use their
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: screens on Fridays, that was their day.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I vaguely remember that, And so what happens is
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  Speaker 1: the kids hang out all week for their screen I mean,
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  Speaker 1: they get on with things, do whatever it is. But
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  Speaker 1: I bet your boots that on that Friday or the
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  Speaker 1: Sunday or whatever day it is, that Jalo and her
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: kids get to hang out on screens. That's all they do.
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  Speaker 1: Like the kids would just be going, oh my goodness,
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  Speaker 1: I finally get it, and they're going to use a
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: week's worth of screen time in a day. But more
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  Speaker 1: than that, I mean, just just from a practical point
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: of view, if you were to sit down with your
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: kids and say, hey, what's your favorite memory of the
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: past seven days. What's the thing that you've enjoyed the
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: very most in the last seven days. No kids going
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: to look at you and say, oh, when we got
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: to have that hour watching YouTube. Oh, when I was
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: allowed to stay up until eight thirty playing games, that
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: was the best day of my life.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: I reckon some of them would, It's pretty unlikely.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Research basically shows that when we use screens to reward,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: When we use screens to reward kids, they use screens more.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: We will link to that in the show notes, as
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: well as the other study. I guess the take home
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: message from this conversation is kids do much better when
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: they have minimal involvement with screens, when screens are not
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: used as rewards and punishments, and when they're not used
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: as pacifiers. The most important app quote unquote app in
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: our kids' lives is us, you and me as parents
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: being present and involved, and the more that they can
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: have us reading them rather than TikTok reading them. Like
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know if this is true or not, but
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: I read the other day that TikTok actually gathers facial
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: expressions as you're using the app to select which is
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: going to be the next thing that shows up in
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: the in the in the TikTok feed Like this, the
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: technology is just insane. We need to be reading them
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: more than TikTok is reading them, and they're going to
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: have much better lives as a result. I hope you've
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: enjoyed this conversation that's a bit of a heavy one,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: really important one about minimizing screens in our kids' lives.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: For more information about making your family happier, you can
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: find us at happy families dot com dot au.