Latest / LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships / #24: How to Tell if Your Adult Child Is Addicted to Video Games; One Mom’s Powerful Story of How She Saved Her Son’s Life

Transcript

#24: How to Tell if Your Adult Child Is Addicted to Video Games; One Mom’s Powerful Story of How She Saved Her Son’s Life · LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships

0:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm Sherry Jonas, and this is Launch, a podcast that offers parenting tips for raising adult children and building better relationships with them.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: On today's episode, I have a very special guest.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Elaine Uskoski is an award-winning, internationally recognized speaker who specializes in raising awareness about video gaming addiction.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: Her journey into this field began in 2014 when her youngest son Jake developed a severe gaming addiction while away at university, a crisis so serious it nearly cost him his life.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: With a background in social services and holistic health, Elaine created a personalized recovery plan that helped Jake heal.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: And that life-altering experience became the catalyst for her work as a parenting coach helping other families who are dealing with their children's compulsive gaming behavior.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: She's the author of two impactful books, Seeing Through the Cracks and Cyber Sober, a Caregiver's Guide to Video Gaming Addiction.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: Elaine has been featured on many major media outlets and most recently received the Silver Award in Therapy and Counseling for her outstanding work dedicated to video gaming addiction at a global summit for women in business.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: I am so pleased to have Elaine here with me in person, and I can't wait for you to hear what she's gone through, what she's learned, and how she can help, especially if you're worried about your child's video gaming habits.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: This episode could be your wake-up call, or maybe there's someone you know who needs to hear this.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Remember to hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: Let's get started.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Elaine, welcome to launch.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: I am thrilled that you are here.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: And I actually only met you not that long ago.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: We had the good fortune of being introduced.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: I knew instantly that I wanted to have you on this podcast.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: I think the work that you're doing raising awareness about video gaming is incredible.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: And I really want parents to know the truth about this addiction or potential addiction.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: This is such an important topic.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: And the fact that you experienced it firsthand with your son makes you such a compassionate parenting coach.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: So I want to get right into your story.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: Tell us what happened with Jake and how did you first realize that it was serious?
2:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I had inklings that Jake was gaming too much.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I would say between first and second year university when he home that summer.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: He'd come home from university excited.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: He told us he had a great year, he passed everything, and he took us out for a celebratory dinner and paid for it.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: My husband and I thought he was doing great.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: We were happy for him.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: And he had a part-time job that summer.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: So he was working late in the evenings.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: He was a dishwasher at a restaurant.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: And then he'd sleep in and then he'd spend the rest of his time gaming.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: And I did approach him at one point and said, I think you need to get a second job.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: You're just spending way too much time gaming.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: And he got very angry with me because he was in a co-op program at university.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: And he said, This is going to be my last free summer.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: I'm either going to be in co-op working or I'm going to be in school in the summers.
3:27
SPEAKER_02: I just want one last summer to play.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: And my gut instinct said to say no, but my husband talked me into just letting it go.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: Just give him the summer.
3:36
SPEAKER_02: And it turned out it was all a lie because he'd already lost his co-op.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: We didn't know that he had failed three classes in first year.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: He didn't tell us.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: And so he returned in second year, and then I really didn't hear much from him.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: And if I text, I'd hear from him at three o'clock in the morning.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, the odd time that I visited or he visited home, he smelled funny, like he didn't smell good.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: His teeth, his dental um health wasn't good, and he was wearing braces at the time.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: So I would say to him, you know, Jake, you probably need to take better care of your teeth, you know, so you want these braces to work.
4:15
SPEAKER_02: Um and he looked like he was starting to lose some weight.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: Of course, he had answers for everything, as addicts do.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: They cover their tracks.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: And it was, you know, second year is harder.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: And I, yeah, yeah, I'll shower more often.
4:29
SPEAKER_02: I'll, yeah, I'll eat better.
4:31
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I'm and he's answering me at three o'clock in the morning because he's working on an assignment.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: But my gut said something was not right.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: I just couldn't put a finger on what it was.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: And then on October 31st, 2014, after he'd been in uh second year for two months, I received an SOS email from him.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: And he wasn't admitting that he had a gaming addiction, but he was admitting that he'd been up in the night gaming and he was sleeping in the day and he hadn't attended classes for two months.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: And he was talking about how he got backed into a corner where he'd um made a late payment for registration.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: And so he got deregistered and then he kind of spun it out of control and didn't know how to fix the problem.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: And then the university caught up with him two months later and said, You can't live in residence, you're not even a registered student.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: Either you call your parents or we will.
5:29
SPEAKER_02: So that's why he contacted you.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: That's why he contacted.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: So they said the locks were going to be changed in three days.
5:35
unknown: Oh my God.
5:36
SPEAKER_02: And I just knew reading his letter, and it was long, it was hard to read, that he was a really in a fragile state, that he was really looking for help.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't just a oh, you know, I haven't gone to school and you I have no place to live.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: It was, I could tell he was really depressed.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: And so I just felt grateful that he felt comfortable enough to reach out.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: He had other choices to make.
6:02
SPEAKER_02: And so I picked up the phone and said, What do you need?
6:05
SPEAKER_02: And he burst into tears and said, I need you to tell me this is going to be okay.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: I said, We'll make it okay.
6:11
SPEAKER_02: And so then I drove to the university.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: It was an hour's drive.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: That whole hour driving there, I was so afraid that he might take his life before I got there because not only was he with in a fragile state, but he was feeling shame as well.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: And so it was just a really hard drive.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: And then when I arrived and he opened the door, it was just a shocking sight.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: He's six foot two, he dropped to 127 pounds, he had facial ticks, his hair was greasy, his eyes were dilated, his hands were shaking, he smelled awful, the room smelled awful.
6:49
SPEAKER_02: He was just a bone sack of bones, really, as I was hugging him.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: So we started, you know, talking about you know, next steps, we're gonna go home, or we talk about that on the way home.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: And and um and in the back of my mind is this is the gaming thing again.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: Too much gaming.
7:08
SPEAKER_02: He can't control it.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: And so when we got home, I said, we're gonna take the gaming away.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get you back on a day-night sleeping schedule.
7:17
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna get you to the doctors, make sure you're okay.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: Because he was so underweight, I was worried.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: And um, when we saw the doctor, he was diagnosed with um anxiety and depression and ADHD.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: And he um opted not to do meds, he didn't want to do any medication.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: He was 19 at the time, so I really couldn't tell him what to do.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: But I said, I really think you need to see a therapist, though.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: Let's get you some counseling.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: So he agreed to do that.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: And uh, so I took him also in the mornings.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: I had a 6 a.m.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: fitness class that I was doing, and so I'd wake him up at 5:30 and take him to my fitness class.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: And God bless, he was willing to spend an hour with middle-aged women in a fitness class.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: And of course, they were all like moms to him and just loving him up.
8:06
SPEAKER_02: And he started to feel um good about the changes in his body and he was gaining some weight and he was feeling better, and uh and it elevated his mood.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: And I kept saying to him, is it is it helping with the dopamine?
8:22
SPEAKER_02: Because I know the gaming was giving him so much dopamine, and he said, it's not the same, it's not as much, but but it's helping.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: Uh and so we did that for eight weeks.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: He lived at home.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: He lived at home.
8:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, we had to pull him out of school anyway, because he wasn't a registered student.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: And while he was home, we learned that he had failed the three classes in first year, so he was on academic probation.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so it was a good thing he did deregister because he had to maintain a grade average, but instead he just didn't register.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: So we were able to re-register him for the next semester.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: I suggested he go back and do those three courses that he dropped.
8:59
SPEAKER_02: So now he's not two years behind, he'd only be one year behind.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: I didn't have a problem with that.
9:05
SPEAKER_02: And so I dropped him off on the Sunday night to start second semester, and all week I had that awful feeling again.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: And he had on the Monday text at three o'clock in the afternoon, survived day one, and then I never heard from him the rest of the week.
9:23
unknown: Okay.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: So I went that weekend, and as soon as he opened the door, I knew he'd relapsed again.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: And you know, he had first denied it.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: I said, I can't help you unless there's full transparency here and you need help.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: And so he said, Yeah, I I loaded the game believing that after eight weeks of counseling, I could just game for an hour.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: And then I gamed all night.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't stop.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: And then I didn't go to school, he didn't go to class all week again.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: So I came, we brought him home again.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: And we had a long conversation about, you know, what do you think the issue is?
10:00
SPEAKER_02: And for him at the time, it was immaturity.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: He said, I'm not ready to grow up.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: I just want to play.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm not ready for any of this.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: So I said, Well, do you want to take a gap year?
10:10
SPEAKER_02: Do you want to be in university?
10:11
SPEAKER_02: Do you want to change your program?
10:13
SPEAKER_02: What do you want to do?
10:14
SPEAKER_02: Like, let's create a new plan then until you do feel ready.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: And he thought about it and he said, No, I I really want to stay in school and get my degree.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: And I said, Okay, what do you need?
10:25
SPEAKER_02: And he thought about that and said, I need you to drive me to school and walk me to class.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: I guess don't get really emotional about that, my 19-year-old asking me to walk him to class until I can do it on my own.
10:41
SPEAKER_02: Because he believed if I sent him back, he would relapse again.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: So that's what I did.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: So, did he ever admit that it was an addiction to video gaming?
10:52
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not.
10:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, not at that time.
10:55
SPEAKER_02: At that time, he believed he had a time management issue.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: Which he did.
10:59
SPEAKER_02: Right.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: He also had an addiction.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: And it was 2014.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: No one was talking about gaming addiction.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: That wasn't in my circle.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: And it was another four years before the World Health Organization established a disorder.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: So there wasn't a lot of support in the area of gaming addiction.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: But I continued to tell him, you're addicted.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't know anything other than remove it all.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: I there was no room for me to even consider harm reduction of maybe just getting him to learn how to handle it in a healthy way.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: It was, it was, this needed to go so he could get through school.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't even in the therapy suggestions.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: No, the therapist that he saw was not familiar with gaming addiction at all.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: In fact, Jake, because he was 19, I had I wasn't privy.
11:47
SPEAKER_02: I had told the therapist that I believed it was a gaming addiction, but of course, Jake convinced him that it was not, which happens with a lot of my clients.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, they go into therapy as adults and say, you know, my parents are overreacting.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: I don't play that much.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm fine.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, that was what Jake was basically doing.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: So they'd actually come up with a schedule to show where he could fit in gaming when he returned.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
12:11
SPEAKER_02: To my horror.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: Like, no, no, you cannot do this.
12:13
SPEAKER_02: No, that's not possible.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: You cannot.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: So you you knew about the schedule and you said and you said no, I don't agree that that's the right approach.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: So that didn't help him when he would return back to school and thought he can just play for an hour because he wasn't told he shouldn't.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: No.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:30
SPEAKER_02: And he's never been able to be successful at harm reduction.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: For some kids, they can build a life around it, and it just becomes sort of a backseat thing they do and they can manage it healthily.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: Jay could never do that.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: So talk to me about harm reduction.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: This is the first time I'm hearing even these words, harm reduction.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: Right.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: So that's we reduce the harm of the addiction because it's a behavioral addiction, like sex or food addiction.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: So we still have sex, we still, you know, need to eat.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: So we have to have some kind of a baseline of what's healthy.
13:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so how much gaming would be healthy in a week.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: And are there, you know, triggered games that you tend to play longer than other games?
13:13
SPEAKER_02: And do we need to change that so that you're only playing games that are safer that you tend not to play for hours and hours?
13:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, do we need to remove the multiplayer games because that's very enticing to have the online friends and that can keep kids online for longer?
13:29
SPEAKER_02: Do we need to say no gaming through the week when you're having school and maybe only gaming on the weekends?
13:36
SPEAKER_02: So we try to set up some kind of a plan so that we can teach healthy regulation of gaming, because gaming in itself is not terrible, but it's a symptom of something else going on if it becomes an addiction.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: So we have to still be dealing with whatever that is while still trying to get them to game in a healthy way.
13:56
SPEAKER_02: Some kids we don't want to detox completely because they become volatile and violent, and some become very despondent and suicidal.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: So we have to be very careful about, you know, how we're going to detox.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: I watched Jake like a hawk when I detoxed him because I still feared that he might take his life.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: So he was on a you know 24-7 mental health watch at home.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: But did he get on meds for the depression and anxiety?
14:23
SPEAKER_01: He did not.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's right.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: You I'm sorry, you said that he did not want to get on meds.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking maybe meds for the ADHD.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: Not initially.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: Uh, it was another 10 years before he realized that it was time for him to do medication for the ADHD.
14:39
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: So what are the early warning signs that parents miss or dismiss?
14:47
SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking about the red flags that say that this is more than just a hobby.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: So that's uh children who compulsively talk about gaming, even when they're not gaming, they're thinking about it.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: They can't wait to get back to the game.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: They're they stop doing other activities in their life, they stop uh spending time with friends in person, their grades will slide.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh grooming often gets dismissed as well.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: They have withdrawal symptoms when you take the games away.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, temper tantrums, a lot of meltdowns we see.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: They are spending hours and hours and hours, of course, and not doing all of the other things they should be doing.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: They shirk their responsibilities.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they give up jobs, sometimes they lose jobs, um, and they don't care about their interpersonal relationships anymore either, or family relationships.
15:45
SPEAKER_02: A lot of my clients will be locked in bedrooms for not locked, literally, but they will like lock themselves into a bedroom and just be there for hours and hours and hours and and you know, barely come out to even eat.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: In your book, Cyber Sober, uh, the caregiver, a caregiver's guide to video gaming addiction, you talk about many things, but the thing that I want to know a little bit more about is the five uh the five stages of addiction.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: And again, this is for the listener, the parent who is sitting here wondering, is this my kid?
16:22
SPEAKER_01: So can you tell us a little bit about that?
16:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that is from Dr.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: Di Clemente, the five stages of addiction.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: And that is pre-contemplative, which is the addict is not even considering, it's not even on their radar that they might have an addiction.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: Uh, the second stage is contemplation, which they are thinking maybe, but they haven't admitted yet.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: And then we go into um preparation where they're starting to think about, oh, okay, I have an addiction and what am I going to do about this?
16:54
SPEAKER_02: Uh, then we go into action of yes, I okay, we're gonna create an action plan and we're going to do something about it, quit, or use harm reduction, and then maintenance.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: And part of maintenance is how do we um support the addict as family members, as therapists, as friends, and how do we manage relapse?
17:15
SPEAKER_02: Because relapse is often uh, as we saw with Jake, a risk of addiction.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Right.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: And the thing about the five stages is it's not linear.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: So you can be in contemplate, the parents can be in the contemplative state where the addict is still pre-contemplative and they want them to move to action.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: But if they're still in pre-contemplative, we can't move them from that to action.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: But also an addict can be in the action stage and then go, no, maybe I'm not that addicted.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's and then go back to pre-contemplative.
17:49
SPEAKER_02: And even parents will do that too, where it starts to become really difficult or they see enough of a change where they're like, well, maybe it's not an addiction.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: And so that can go, you know, two steps forward, three steps back.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: So the five stages applies to both the addict and to the family members.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you refer to video gaming as compulsive behavior.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: I want to understand what is it about the video addict's brain where they can't control the gaming?
18:18
SPEAKER_01: Why do they struggle while other kids can seem to turn it off and manage their responsibilities?
18:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, once we start playing anything in any kind of excess, then the brain will flood with more dopamine.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: The more dopamine, the more we need to maintain.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: Eventually you get to a tolerance level.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: And so now you need to amp it up and play more and more and more.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: And then that starts to affect um impulse control, and it starts to affect decision making and memory.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: And so now the brain becomes literally imprisoned with the desire to play, um, which is what was is referred to as the addiction hijacking the brain.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: That was my next question.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: So you recently had an interview with a neuroscientist based on a documentary series, which I believe is coming out soon.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: By the time this recording is out, it will be out.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's been released in Ireland.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then the hope is that it will be released in the rest of Europe and North America.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: I'd like, we'll put in the show notes where people can go to to watch that documentary series.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: But that's when you talk about the um the video addict's brain gets hijacked.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: So that is very intriguing to me.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: Because I think one of the reasons why I want to talk so much about the brain and how it's all connected chemically to dopamine is because I want parents to understand this is not something that the adult child can control.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: No, no, right.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: You can't just say stop.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: No, they're in a prison.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: Their body's just need, need, need, need.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I say to parents, if they do catch their child sneaking gaming when they're trying to control it, is not to shame them, but to ask them, ah, the cravings are strong today.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: Was this a tough day?
20:08
SPEAKER_02: Did something happen today?
20:09
SPEAKER_02: Are you feeling low today?
20:12
SPEAKER_02: Because we want the gamer to make that connection between, oh, I am using this as a coping mechanism when things are not great.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: Because we all do that with cravings.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm having a bad day.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: I like little dark chocolate or potato chips myself.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: It's soothing in the moment.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: But gamers are using it for if they're an addicted, constant soothing.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: And so we want them to be aware of that.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: Right, the trigger.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if they're not doing that, they're looking for uh a sense of high achievement, right?
20:43
SPEAKER_02: So if they're not achieving in other areas of their life, then they go into the gaming arena because they can be great at something.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: And they have lots of friends, online friends that are calling them into play and you join us, come on, and that's very enticing, and they have instant reward and and this beautiful positive feedback loop and this mass amount of dopamine.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: And so there's a place where they just feel so powerful where they may not be feeling that elsewhere.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: And so we want them to be aware of that.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: We want to look for the areas that they can excel at outside of gaming and really focus and praise that to get them to need it less.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Many parents are downplaying gaming.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: I did 10 years ago when my son was at it all the time.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, we see it as social.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: We make excuses that it's normal for their generation, right?
21:35
SPEAKER_01: But I guess what would you say to a parent who is still making excuses and is in denial when this could become something that is very well potentially harmful?
21:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh, it's a great question because I too said the same thing.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: I overlooked often.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I remember even saying uh, who are these people?
22:00
SPEAKER_02: You're talking to because Jake would mention names of friends, and I'm like, I don't know who that child is.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: Who is that child?
22:05
SPEAKER_02: And uh, somebody I met online.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: Uh oh, okay.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: So I could see how important that was becoming to him because he was bullied in middle school, and at that time, not everyone was gaming.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: At that time, you were considered different if you were a gamer.
22:20
SPEAKER_02: So you were in a little niche area and you were a little nerd, and that wasn't cool.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, now you know, most of them are gaming and it's acceptable now.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: And so he got bullied, and his brother was going on a school exchange to Spain for three months, and they were very close, still are, and he wanted to stay connected with Jake.
22:40
SPEAKER_02: So he introduced him to online multiplayer gaming so the two of them could play games still while they were away and talk to each other.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: And then once Jake got on the game, he realized, oh, there's a community of people like me.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: Oh, they accept me.
22:53
SPEAKER_02: They're also gamers.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: And then they became his online friends that meant so much to him because he wasn't making connections at school.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't until he got into high school that things got better and he was able to make friends there.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, but he was still gaming a lot and he was still maintaining those online friendships at that time.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: So I thought as long as you know his grades were good at school, and and they his grades were slipping, by the way, but he still had grades good enough to get into university.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't that he was failing.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: And I would say, even if their grades start slipping, and this is a kid who's usually academically doing well, that is a sign to be really watching out for and not making excuses for.
23:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I overlooked that.
23:38
SPEAKER_02: Um and he stopped having as much interest in snowboarding, uh, archery, tennis, all the things that he loved to do.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: He was dropping those sorts of things.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, again, I was, you know, he's a teenager, and you know, that's when this starts to happen.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: The same thing happened with his brother.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: He changed, you know, his interest in things.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: And the other thing was if he was uh irritable with me, which he was irritable a lot, uh, I chalked it up to hormones.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: He was right.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: There's an excuse for everything.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: So I did those, I made all of those mistakes.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, and because it wasn't as severe then, it was more difficult to recognize that it was addictive.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't until the excessive weight loss and then not attending classes and you know, walking away from something that he was really interested in, which was his university studies.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: That's when it was very obvious there was a problem.
24:36
SPEAKER_02: And so we have to be really paying attention to me.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: The most important thing is our kids' mental health.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: And are they struggling?
24:43
SPEAKER_02: He didn't want help with the bullying.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: Snitches get stitches.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: That was the whole attitude of, and I'd ask, Do you want some help?
24:51
SPEAKER_03: Right.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: But I probably should have gotten him some other supports in that time and not just sort of let him handle that on his own.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: Certainly shouldn't have let him handle it with online friends.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: Again, we did not see any of that coming at that time.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: So I think we have to recognize that if you've got a child that's vulnerable, if you've got a child that's, if you've got a child that's neurodiverse, because a large percentage of my coaching clients have ADHD and some have autism, they're at very high risk, as we learned with Jake.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, if you've got a child struggling with anxiety or depression, uh, they're having difficulty making friends, if there's, you know, issues in the home, if they're in a split family and there's there's issues there, those are kids that are going to be really vulnerable, just like those are kids that are vulnerable to predators, they're also vulnerable to addiction.
25:43
SPEAKER_03: Right.
25:43
SPEAKER_02: And getting those online friendships that give them that warm feeling that they're not experiencing outside of that.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about neurodiversity and how that, because there is more and more of a connection, right?
25:55
SPEAKER_01: As we talked about.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: Huge correlation.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: So so for the listener who knows about neurodiversity, first of all, we can talk about it for just briefly to explain what a neurodiverse brain is versus a neurotypical brain.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the connection, because if you're if there's neurodiversity, then we're talking about ADHD and the comorbidity with other, you know, addictions.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: So if you want, I'm I'm talking about it, but I want you to talk about it.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, neurodiverse would be those in the category of ADHD, those on the autism spectrum, those in the dyslexic spectrum as well.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: Their brains work differently than a neurotypical routine does not come easy for them.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: Executive functioning skills like um organizing, uh study, good study habits, note-taking, their working memory, those are all uh problems for people with ADHD.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: Um and uh with autism, there's often the need for rigidity and right, the repetitiveness.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: And so they find that very enticing with gaming.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: They often have social issues, so the online friends become important to them as well.
27:07
SPEAKER_02: So with the ADHD brain and gaming, gaming is a huge dopamine hit.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: If they're if their ADHD is not being well managed, if they're not medicated, if they're not working with an executive functioning or ADHD coach and they're still struggling, then that dopamine hit's going to be important to them.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: Also, that arena of high achievement is because they often struggle with school.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: It allows their brain to operate at 110%, which is where they're happiest, in and under pressure, uh, gives them that positive feedback loop they need because they're usually very sensitive and usually very kind, kind little souls.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: Um and uh and they get instant reward.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: So for someone with ADHD, instant reward is super important.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh it's a perfect storm for them.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: Really perfect storm.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I would say 98% of my clients are ADHD.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, and when we start to look at managing that uh in a healthier way and getting them to understand how their brain works, what I find often is you get the diagnosis, you get the medication, but there's not always a lot of support material and not a lot of education.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: And I'll often ask my clients, do you understand how your ADHD brain works?
28:29
SPEAKER_02: And like, nope, they have no idea.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: All they know is it's a struggle and they're different than everybody else, and that's not comfortable for them.
28:37
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, lots of education, getting them the supports, getting parents to understand also that if you have a neurodiverse child, they need to be parented in a different way.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's important for parents to understand and learn as well.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: So we work on all of those pieces.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: So when you take a video gaming addict and they get tested for ADHD and they get on the meds, do you see a reduction in their gaming once they're being treated for the ADHD?
29:08
SPEAKER_01: Is there that kind of correlation?
29:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, parents will notice a difference in their disposition and they'll notice that they can focus better with school, but the medication's not enough.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:22
SPEAKER_02: They still have weak executive functioning.
29:25
SPEAKER_02: And how do we help them learn how to um time manage?
29:30
SPEAKER_02: How do we help them with um executive functioning?
29:34
SPEAKER_02: How do we strengthen that?
29:36
SPEAKER_02: How do we help them connect with friends socially?
29:40
SPEAKER_02: So there's a whole lot of pieces to the puzzle that have to be put together, and it's not just about medication.
29:46
SPEAKER_03: Right.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: I just recently spoke to a client who said, yeah, the medication helps me focus somewhat, but I don't think it's enough.
29:52
SPEAKER_02: It's not.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: It's not enough.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: Uh it wakes up those sleepy parts of the brain.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: That's helpful.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: But then now what do we do?
29:59
SPEAKER_02: Because you've been in a holding pattern of behavior that hasn't worked for you.
30:03
SPEAKER_02: And how do we shift that so that you can work with your ADHD limitations and strengthen those executive functioning skills?
30:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: A lot of kids that I work with who are ADHD sit in such shame because they've been told they're lazy and unmotivated.
30:23
SPEAKER_02: And parents get mad at them because they can't, you know, get themselves up in the morning and routine doesn't come easy for them.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: Right.
30:30
SPEAKER_02: And so there's often a lot of chaos and a lot of uh tension in the house.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then of course at school, uh, again, they're they come home feeling that sense of shame if they're not doing as well as their peers.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: So um I yeah, I have to work on all of those pieces.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: Just for Jake, because he decided to do medication late in life, he has said it did make an overnight difference for him in terms of focus.
30:59
SPEAKER_02: And the way he explained it was my brain is just always full of chaotic thoughts that I just couldn't organize or prioritize.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: And so I felt like I had to do everything at once.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: And then I couldn't, I couldn't multitask, I couldn't do everything at once.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: Nothing was getting done.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: And so he said when he started the medication, that slowed down in his brain.
31:21
SPEAKER_02: That, and so he had the ability to say, Oh yeah, I do have to do that, but not today.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: I can do that tomorrow or next week.
31:30
SPEAKER_02: That's not a priority.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, no, this is what I need to focus on right now.
31:34
SPEAKER_02: So he did say that helped, but he's 29 and he's had years of figuring out how to get up for work and strengthen those uh other skills.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: So for him, it was it was literally just about reorganizing the thoughts that were going on in his brain.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: I want to touch on something you said earlier about how that is sometimes gaming can be a symptom of a bigger problem that's going on in the house or at school.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: So can we talk a little bit about that?
32:06
SPEAKER_01: That it's that it's it is a symptom of something that that can spiral into something bigger, but they are essentially escaping from something that's going on in their life.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: And so when you are dealing with one of your clients, do you want to get to the root of that at the same time that you're talking about the video?
32:24
SPEAKER_02: Okay, absolutely.
32:25
SPEAKER_02: Escabor Mate would say, addiction is a solution to the problem.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Love him.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: It's not the solution, it's an unhealthy solution to the problem.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you're trying to fix something else by either escaping or getting that warm, fuzzy feeling from all those online friends and from those accolades that you get from gaming that you're not getting somewhere else, uh, especially if you're struggling socially or uh academically, you know, or things are not great at home and you're not getting along with your parents.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: A lot of kids I have are in their rooms gaming, so they don't have to listen to the chaos that's going on in the house.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: And that's not just chaos that's coming from parent tension.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: There can be a disabled child in the house that's extremely disruptive to the family, and they're escaping from that as well.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's all kinds of there could be you know addiction in the family, and that can be creating some problems that they're just in their room, quietly gaming, so they can cancel out the noise and they don't have to think about or listen to this.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: What are some proactive steps that you can suggest to the parent that is beginning to think that there might be a problem?
33:44
SPEAKER_01: How, or rather, what are some healthy limitations?
33:50
SPEAKER_01: So I don't, you know, it's like we said, it's there's not necessarily anything wrong with it as long as it's as long as it's within normal, you know, amount of time and it's not interfering with their life.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: But if I want to make sure that this doesn't happen and I don't want to take the gaming away from them, what can what are the proactive steps?
34:08
SPEAKER_01: What can we do to set those healthy limits?
34:12
SPEAKER_02: For me, the approach was always empathy.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: I knew he didn't want to be addicted.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: No one wants to be addicted.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: He wanted to make me proud like every other child.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: I'd be looking at why are they not feeling that?
34:25
SPEAKER_02: Why are they not feeling that they're making you proud or even making themselves proud?
34:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh, what is the underlying issue?
34:35
SPEAKER_02: And try to have conversations about that.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: Do not talk about the games in a detrimental way.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: It's like talking about alcohol in a detrimental way.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: Your kids are just gonna go find it out and they're gonna drink outside of the house.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, but try to understand what gaming gives to them and provides for them.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: I often ask my clients, what are the skills you bring to gaming?
34:56
SPEAKER_02: What are you good at?
34:57
SPEAKER_02: Because that's gonna tell me a lot about what they're looking for in terms of their success.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm a great leader, uh, or I'm a really good team player.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: Or I had one young man say to me, I like to defend the bombs instead of setting off the bombs.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: And I say, tell me why.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: Oh, because that lets me practice listening and I have to listen to footsteps and drones and activity that's going on.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: And then I'll ask them, where can you translate those skills outside of gaming?
35:27
SPEAKER_02: Because those are great skills to have.
35:28
SPEAKER_02: Where do you think you could use those outside of out of out of gaming?
35:32
SPEAKER_02: And for this particular child, he wanted to be a chef one day.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: And I said to him, those are gonna be great skills because you have to listen to a lot of sounds in a kitchen when you're a chef.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: So those are really great skills.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, but are we using them in excess, right?
35:49
SPEAKER_02: So where can we find areas away from the gaming where we can get kids to practice those same skills and still feel good about themselves?
35:57
SPEAKER_02: Right.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: And where have they let go of things that they're not doing anymore?
36:01
SPEAKER_02: And how can we get them back to doing more activities outside of gaming?
36:08
SPEAKER_02: So you're not taking the gaming away, but you're saying, you know what, you need some balance in your life.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: And so you need to find some other things that you need to do as well.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: Things that you need to do in person are really important.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: Something physical, especially for kids with ADHD, you know, physical fitness is their friend.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: It's the most helpful thing.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: That's the thing Jake still continues to say today.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: If he spirals and gets off track with his fitness program, he says, yeah, the ADHD symptoms get right out of control.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so does the depression and the anxiety.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: So that's important.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: Having an activity to move to when your child's gaming afterwards is super important because if there isn't an activity to follow, in their mind they're asking themselves, well, there's nothing else to do.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:52
SPEAKER_02: Why can't I just keep gaming?
36:54
SPEAKER_02: Right.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: So have planned activities that follow.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: Usually something physical is going to be really helpful.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: For me, often the first move is to get the unit out of the bedroom.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
37:05
SPEAKER_02: That's a preventative tip, too.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: I like that.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: Never in the bedroom.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: First of all, since online uh child exploitation has occurred, it's increased 1500%.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: Predators are everywhere and they're in games, they're on Discord, they're in chat rooms, they're on Instagram.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: So you don't want your child alone in a room, especially if it's a vulnerable child who's struggling with anxiety or depression or ADHD.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: That's the target for the predator.
37:35
SPEAKER_02: But also you cannot supervise and control if it's in a room, if it's in a bedroom.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: And that's usually when it turns into the all-night gaming as well, where they they're sleeping in the day and gaming at night.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: Right.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: So you can't monitor homework being done.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I made that mistake.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: Jake had um a computer in his room.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: And what I learned was he'd have 20 tabs opened.
37:58
SPEAKER_02: And if I walked into the room, he was switching over to the homework tab, even though he was gaming.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: But I wasn't aware.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: So now that I'm aware of that, I think that's really important to share with parents.
38:10
SPEAKER_02: I like that.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: In terms of restriction of time, we there's, I mean, there is the American pediatric recommendations, which is no uh screen time for under two.
38:24
SPEAKER_02: And there's two reasons for that.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: One is attachment theory.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: You want your child attaching to you, not to a device.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: And the other is infants are born seeing, but they don't have peripheral or distance vision.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: And so holding up their head and rolling over and sitting up and standing and walking, those are all milestones that help them develop peripheral and distance vision.
38:45
SPEAKER_02: You put a screen in front of them, you're going to interrupt that.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: I can't even imagine putting a screen in front of a two-year-old.
38:53
SPEAKER_02: I just read, no, I just heard on a podcast uh the other day that 40% of two-year-olds have their own iPads.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: That's not good.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: I think I dodged a bullet by having my kids 25 years ago.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: That's incredible.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:11
SPEAKER_02: 40%.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: That's not good.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh then we we go into the two to preteen, and it's about two hours a day.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: Okay, no one's following that.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: No one's following that.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: No.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: No.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: Uh, same podcast, 60% of young people today are uh using their phone all the time.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: Like they are completely attached to it at all times.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: That's just that digital device.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: And then uh over that it's three hours.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: And so you can't really state a specific time because one kid can game for four hours or five hours, but still get all their homework done and still be involved in other activities and still be really engaged with their family.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: And then there's kids that can't even do it for an hour.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, for me, if they're in school, I try to keep the gaming away entirely during Monday to Thursday.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: Maybe some gaming on Saturday and Sunday, but it has to be broken up.
40:10
SPEAKER_02: So if you're gonna give them four hours of gaming on a Saturday, maybe two hours, and then they go do something physical and they're busy and they have lunch, and we do something else, and then they can have two hours.
40:20
SPEAKER_02: Break it up and make sure there's always an activity to follow.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: So I keep thinking about this because I don't I don't want the parents to think that it's just young boys.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: Talk a little bit about where do girls fit into all of this.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: So, in percentages, it's 51% of boys will play video games and 49% of girls, but they're playing different video games.
40:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
40:42
SPEAKER_02: Girls tend to play more of a Sims type game or Candy Crush or they're on games, Scrabble, Wordle, those sorts of games that are on their phones, whereas boys will be playing the online multiplayer, you have the big units in their room.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they have multiple screens, it's very loud, they've got their gaming chairs.
41:00
SPEAKER_02: We are seeing a rise in females playing uh video games.
41:05
SPEAKER_02: I spoke two years ago in South Korea at the esports summit.
41:10
SPEAKER_02: And so I've kept in touch with a lot of colleagues there who were involved in gaming.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: And there's definitely an increase in female teams.
41:18
SPEAKER_02: Um they also are doing a really good job of changing the way they approach um esports as a professional, um, as a professional game.
41:30
SPEAKER_02: It used to be you just have to play a lot, you just have to play hours and hours and hours and hours and hours.
41:35
SPEAKER_02: And that was not, we realized that's the worst thing that was creating the addictions.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: And so now they have coaches and they set up, you know, physical fitness breaks.
41:44
SPEAKER_02: And there's even a research study in Australia right now where they're looking at how the menstrual cycle affects female gamers when they're competing.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: And how we can work around to help them with that.
41:56
SPEAKER_02: So for sure there's an increase in females.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: There's also um a friend of mine who is in the esports industry that works on the online bullying because there are words that trigger females that males are not familiar with.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, they will make statements like, I'm gonna rape you in a joking way in the middle of a game, not recognizing that's a triggering word for women.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: And so we're trying to reduce um the toxicity that is happening with female gamers and the online bullying that's happening with female.
42:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, there's all there's bullying with males as well.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, so there are groups that are working hard at that as well.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: But 90% of gaming addicts will be males.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: And the average age of an addicted uh gamer is um a male between 18 and 25.
42:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
42:52
SPEAKER_02: Most of my clients, or large portion of them, are young guys who have gone off to their first year of college or university, not prepared, already addicted before leaving, uh, and then don't have success and land in their rooms and fail out.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: I've had clients that have had multiple attempts at university and fail out and go fall back to the gaming every time.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: So you don't have a lot of female clients?
43:20
SPEAKER_02: I do not.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: I've I have had I've had trans, I've had um non-binary, I've I've had gay, I've had all kinds.
43:27
SPEAKER_02: Right.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: Um and I have had of my pure female, maybe two.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
43:35
unknown: Yeah.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about parental controls on digital devices.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: Does it work?
43:44
SPEAKER_01: No.
43:44
unknown: Okay.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I already knew the answer to that question.
43:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, it's not working, but well, it will work if they're young.
43:52
SPEAKER_02: But I just wrote a blog about this actually.
43:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, because one of my clients, he is just graduating in.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: Um computer science and wants to do a master's in cybersecurity.
44:03
SPEAKER_02: And he actually was talking to me about how he got interested in cybersecurity because of the things he had to do to get on games when his father was trying to turn off the internet and put all the protections on.
44:19
SPEAKER_02: For every parental control that you want to purchase, there's probably 10 to 20 YouTube channels telling kids how to get around them.
44:29
SPEAKER_02: It's the most common, uh, commonly searched word is loopholes for gaming addicts.
44:34
SPEAKER_02: No kidding.
44:35
SPEAKER_02: And and some are like 10-year-olds.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: I've literally sat on calls with parents where they've listed, okay, what about this one?
44:42
SPEAKER_02: And I'll type it in and it shoots out at you know, 10 or 12 YouTube videos.
44:47
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:48
SPEAKER_02: And then I'll turn one on.
44:49
SPEAKER_02: It'll be it sounds like a 10-year-old is literally guiding them through how to get around the parental control.
44:55
SPEAKER_02: That's crazy.
44:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:56
SPEAKER_02: So the only thing that you can do in terms of control, I mean, you can't, you have to remove data from their phones because if you turn off the Wi-Fi, they hotspot with their data.
45:08
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you have to take the rotor out of the house at certain hours.
45:12
SPEAKER_02: And in terms of digital devices, if they're gaming on their phones, there's something called the bark or the pinwheel.
45:18
SPEAKER_02: Pinwheel is the Canadian version, Bark is the American version.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: That's the only phone that parents can absolutely uh control the devices and keep apps off of them.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: So they can still text and they can still um listen to music.
45:33
SPEAKER_02: They can have Spotify on, they can um use the phone, but they can't get on social media or gaming sites because parents control what access they have and then they can access what time they control it as well.
45:43
SPEAKER_03: Right.
45:43
SPEAKER_02: But the gaming is really difficult with parental controls.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this brings me to gaming detox, something that you suggest when a young adult is in trouble.
45:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's got to be deep trouble.
45:57
SPEAKER_02: I rarely start with detox because you have to have a safety plan in place and you have to really understand what's gonna happen to the gamer because they're gonna go through withdrawal symptoms just like any addict.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so we're talking about when it's got to the point where the child's withdrawn from life, they're not eating well, they're not sleeping well, they're failing.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: That's the point where you got to do gaming detox.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: So talk to us about what does that look like?
46:22
SPEAKER_02: And we usually start with 30 days.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: 90 days is the perfect amount of time for addiction to be detoxed.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: That would mean removing phone as well, because they can game on their phones.
46:33
SPEAKER_02: And parents always say to me, Well, they won't game on their phones.
46:36
SPEAKER_02: That's not as exciting.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: That's like saying to a heroin addict, well, they don't do pot if we take heroin away.
46:41
SPEAKER_02: They'll game on their phones, they always do.
46:43
SPEAKER_02: And yes, it's not as exciting, but it's still a dopamine hit and they're still addicts.
46:47
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we remove everything.
46:49
SPEAKER_02: Everything.
46:50
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we start with getting them on a regular sleep cycle because they're basically in jet lag.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: Often they're 12 hours behind because they're gaming all night, sleeping all day.
47:02
SPEAKER_02: We watch them really, really closely for the first five to seven days.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: That is the most dangerous time when they can become extremely depressed and suicidal or want to self-harm.
47:13
SPEAKER_02: And they can also become very volatile and violent.
47:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, so generally we leave them be if they're irritable and having tantrums and miserable and don't want to speak to us.
47:27
SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
47:28
SPEAKER_02: Let them go through that.
47:30
SPEAKER_02: Just be calm yourself and be on alert, be watching for signs that you know this is going the other way.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, usually by the second week, after they've been detoxed, they're lonely.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: We're human.
47:43
SPEAKER_02: We need connection.
47:44
SPEAKER_02: They start coming out of their rooms, they start talking a little bit.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: Parents will usually tell me at the two-week mark, oh, the child I know and love has returned.
47:53
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's my boy.
47:55
SPEAKER_02: He's back again.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: And then they give it back often at the two-week mark.
48:00
SPEAKER_02: That's the worst time to give it back.
48:01
SPEAKER_02: We want to see consistency with that.
48:04
SPEAKER_02: And then we want to be re-engaging them with other things outside of gaming and make sure they're fully engaged and feeling better and recognizing that this is much better, not having the gaming in their life, before we would even consider returning it in small doses.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: So the first week or so or two, you're not actually trying to get them out of their room and get them into an activity.
48:29
SPEAKER_01: You're just leaving them alone.
48:31
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
48:31
SPEAKER_02: They're miserable.
48:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
48:33
SPEAKER_02: And they have a right to be.
48:34
SPEAKER_02: They're going through withdrawal symptoms and they're not going to like this.
48:37
SPEAKER_02: It's forced often.
48:39
SPEAKER_02: And that's okay that they don't like it.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: And we want to recognize that and validate that.
48:43
SPEAKER_02: Right.
48:43
SPEAKER_02: You know what?
48:44
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I can see this is hard for you.
48:46
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I always said to Jake.
48:47
SPEAKER_02: I can see this is hard.
48:49
SPEAKER_02: What do you need?
48:50
SPEAKER_02: What can I do?
48:51
SPEAKER_02: How what kind of support?
48:53
SPEAKER_02: And if it was nothing, it was nothing.
48:54
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes he just needed to rant.
48:57
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes he just needed a sounding board and just rant about how he felt.
49:01
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes when he was at university and I felt like he was spiraling, sometimes he needed me to go get him and bring him home.
49:08
SPEAKER_02: So whatever he needed, I would just ask, what do you need?
49:12
SPEAKER_02: What do you need?
49:12
SPEAKER_02: And I know this is hard.
49:14
SPEAKER_02: We're not going to change it.
49:16
SPEAKER_02: I just recognize for you that it's hard.
49:18
SPEAKER_02: And I'm here to support that.
49:20
SPEAKER_02: Anything digital is removed.
49:22
SPEAKER_01: Right.
49:22
SPEAKER_02: For Jake, he got severe headaches.
49:25
SPEAKER_02: He was very agitated.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the dopamine.
49:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
49:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: And uh that's why I got him involved in in fitness and and healthy eating immediately.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
49:35
SPEAKER_02: I gotta counterbalance this somehow.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: But he was very irritable.
49:39
SPEAKER_02: He got more depressed.
49:40
SPEAKER_02: He was lonely.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: And he was grieving.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: He'd lost all his online friends suddenly.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: He had friendships.
49:47
SPEAKER_02: He wasn't making those at university.
49:49
SPEAKER_02: And now I took all that away.
49:50
SPEAKER_02: So now he's grieving those friendships as well.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
49:53
SPEAKER_02: I hear that from a lot of kids.
49:54
SPEAKER_02: Just give me back my phone so I can toss talk to my friends.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: I just want to talk to my friends, even if I can't game.
49:59
SPEAKER_02: It's hard, it's horrible to watch.
50:02
SPEAKER_02: It's horrible for them.
50:03
SPEAKER_01: What for the parent listening, um, who's really beginning to worry, especially at this point in this conversation?
50:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I can't deny this anymore.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: I can't make excuses.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: There's a real problem.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: What do you urge them to do?
50:16
SPEAKER_01: What's the first step that a parent can take knowing that there this is a problem?
50:20
SPEAKER_02: I would get yourself some support and not do it on your own.
50:25
SPEAKER_02: It's hard to do on your own.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: I did a lot of it with Jake on my own, and it took a lot out of me.
50:32
SPEAKER_02: You need you need to talk to people.
50:33
SPEAKER_02: You need to get some help for yourself and get some direction, either with a therapist or a coach, somebody that's familiar with gaming addiction.
50:40
SPEAKER_02: You need to start trying to have conversations if with your child that have nothing to do with addiction, but have to do with what they're struggling with, and um try to get them some help for that.
50:54
SPEAKER_02: We try not to use the word addiction because it is behavioral, but when they hear the word addiction, they think removal, right?
51:01
SPEAKER_02: Like alcohol or drugs, and then they they panic and they hang on to it even fuller.
51:06
SPEAKER_02: We don't even use words like problematic before.
51:09
SPEAKER_02: We used to use that.
51:10
SPEAKER_02: I tend to look at it with the whole craving aspect of again of you know what's going on in your life that's making you crave this and try to talk to them about their video games.
51:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, don't be detrimental about it and try to learn about what they're playing.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: What I find with a lot of my clients is that parents will say to me, Well, yeah, I played with my kids when they were young, because I was asked that on the intake.
51:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I played with them when they were young.
51:37
SPEAKER_02: Like, why did you stop?
51:39
SPEAKER_02: Why is playfulness not still a part of your relationship, even as adults?
51:44
SPEAKER_02: My family's very playful.
51:46
SPEAKER_02: My sons are 29 and 33, and I have a daughter-in-law that's 30.
51:49
SPEAKER_02: We're very playful.
51:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, for Mother's Day, they'll they'll take me to an escape room because they know I love that kind of stuff.
51:57
SPEAKER_02: And we play board games and card games together.
52:00
SPEAKER_02: But I find families stop being playful and um, and then the kids still want to be playful because they don't want to grow up.
52:10
SPEAKER_02: That's a big problem.
52:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh, the not wanting to grow up.
52:13
SPEAKER_02: Look at your child's emotional maturity and see what they need.
52:17
SPEAKER_02: I will always ask that in an intake, even if I've got a 30-year-old.
52:20
SPEAKER_02: What do you think their emotional age is?
52:22
SPEAKER_02: And often parents will say, 14.
52:25
SPEAKER_02: Okay, ask yourself what a 14-year-old needs.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: They still need some guidance.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:30
SPEAKER_02: They still need you in their life.
52:32
SPEAKER_02: Uh, they need to grow up.
52:34
SPEAKER_02: We need to put them in situations where we can build resiliency.
52:38
SPEAKER_02: We need to challenge them so they can mature.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:40
SPEAKER_02: We have to look at all of that.
52:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you're probably going to need some help with that.
52:44
SPEAKER_02: That's probably not something a parent will tackle on their own.
52:47
SPEAKER_02: When I decided to take Jake back to school when he asked me to drive him and uh walk him to class, I just I had a friend say, You can't do this alone, Elaine.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: Go to student services.
53:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
53:00
SPEAKER_02: So grateful she told me that.
53:02
SPEAKER_02: So I did.
53:03
SPEAKER_02: I went to student services and they were amazing.
53:06
SPEAKER_02: He was in a campus residence that was a 13-minute walk from school.
53:11
SPEAKER_02: So it was really easy for him to isolate.
53:13
SPEAKER_02: The first thing they did was move him back onto campus.
53:16
SPEAKER_02: They gave him a therapist and a special needs advisor.
53:20
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so this is huge what you're saying.
53:23
SPEAKER_02: So there is the support.
53:24
SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's huge support.
53:25
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
53:26
SPEAKER_02: And probably is getting them to the support.
53:29
SPEAKER_02: Right.
53:29
SPEAKER_02: I had a psychologist ask me that.
53:31
SPEAKER_02: He said, I have 1,600 students in my class.
53:34
SPEAKER_02: What's the message you want me to take back to them?
53:36
SPEAKER_02: This was after I'd done a talk.
53:38
SPEAKER_02: And I said, I'm so glad you asked that question because it's got nothing to do with video gaming addiction.
53:43
SPEAKER_02: Kids are with kids in university.
53:47
SPEAKER_02: They need to be looking out for each other.
53:49
unknown: Right.
53:50
SPEAKER_02: Because we kind of let them fly on their own and prove they can be independent.
53:54
SPEAKER_02: And they want to prove to us they can be independent.
53:56
SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of cut off.
53:58
SPEAKER_02: You've got 1600 students, you're not going to catch everything.
54:01
SPEAKER_02: But students are with students every day, in class, in dorms, in activities.
54:06
SPEAKER_02: They see what's going on.
54:08
SPEAKER_02: They need to know what to do about that.
54:10
SPEAKER_02: Because my son was in a townhouse with two other young men for two months.
54:17
SPEAKER_02: Neither of them ever said to him, Hey man, are you okay?
54:21
SPEAKER_02: We're worried about you.
54:23
SPEAKER_02: You don't seem to be going to class.
54:24
SPEAKER_02: You don't even seem to be eating or showering.
54:27
SPEAKER_02: Are you okay?
54:28
SPEAKER_02: No one.
54:29
SPEAKER_02: And so we Jake and I started a module at the University of Toronto for psychology classes to help kids understand that if you don't feel comfortable approaching, go to student services and tell them you're worried about a student.
54:43
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
54:44
SPEAKER_02: And then they will go and help the student.
54:46
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
54:46
SPEAKER_02: We can't leave these kids not utilizing the services.
54:50
SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes they know they're there, but the stigma, the shame, and the not realizing they need and how they can utilize and how they can be helpful.
54:59
SPEAKER_02: So get help, get help, get help, get help.
55:02
SPEAKER_02: And once Jake had that help in place, like for two years he met with that therapist.
55:07
SPEAKER_02: From school.
55:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:09
SPEAKER_02: And he had a peer support person as well, which is a volunteer, like a um fourth-year student that volunteers to check in.
55:16
SPEAKER_02: We utilized all of the services and they were immensely helpful.
55:20
SPEAKER_02: And even though that wasn't a video gaming addiction code of therapist, they worked on self-esteem and getting Jake to believe in himself again.
55:29
SPEAKER_02: And that really was the core issue.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: And how do you how do you integrate them into the community of school if they're because you're saying basically they're they've supplemented, they found the community online, and we all know how important social connections are.
55:43
SPEAKER_01: And so now they're not, they don't have that social connection.
55:46
SPEAKER_01: So now you want to integrate them into the community of school.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: So do they help you with that?
55:51
SPEAKER_01: Does the school help?
55:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like how how can we how can parents get the their their young adult who's now no longer gaming?
55:59
SPEAKER_01: How can they rebuild their friendships?
56:01
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that is the biggest piece.
56:03
SPEAKER_02: That's the biggest piece.
56:04
SPEAKER_02: That was the biggest piece for Jake.
56:06
SPEAKER_02: Between fourth and fifth year, he decided to give up gaming entirely.
56:12
SPEAKER_02: So his last year, he he we moved to the city that his university was in.
56:18
SPEAKER_02: We downsized and moved.
56:19
SPEAKER_02: And so he lived with us that last year because up until that point, he had to come home every weekend because of the addiction.
56:25
SPEAKER_02: So he couldn't join sports because that's when the games would be.
56:28
SPEAKER_02: He couldn't go to parties.
56:30
SPEAKER_02: He so it was difficult for him.
56:32
SPEAKER_02: He was making some friends at school at that point, but that really solidified the piece of community for him that when he lived with us, he could go to the parties.
56:41
SPEAKER_02: He could join, and he joined tons of activities.
56:44
SPEAKER_02: That became the new addiction.
56:45
SPEAKER_02: Jake became just too busy, and then we had to go take.
56:48
SPEAKER_02: He goes, Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
56:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of burning the candles at both ends.
56:51
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that community piece is super, super important.
56:54
SPEAKER_02: We have to find areas of interest.
56:57
SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes for my gamers, I'll suggest they go to hobby shops because they have Dungeons and Dragons and they have Magic the Gathering and they have strategy games.
57:06
SPEAKER_02: And right.
57:06
SPEAKER_02: And so they're they're like-minded kids.
57:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, or if they're interested in art, get them into the art world.
57:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, we often suggest that they do um it's a type of comedy where you're not scripted.
57:20
SPEAKER_02: Uh I know what you mean, but I don't know the words.
57:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:24
SPEAKER_02: So we improv?
57:25
SPEAKER_02: Improv.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: Right.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we suggest they go to improv so they can pull out of that introverted, you know, locked-in shyness because nobody cares in improv.
57:34
SPEAKER_02: Anything goes.
57:35
SPEAKER_02: Right.
57:35
SPEAKER_02: And it's just a you know, small group.
57:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, if they were interested in sports that they gave up before, we try to pull them back to the sports.
57:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
57:43
SPEAKER_02: I try to get them to engage in some kind of uh physical activity where they can get a bit of a win.
57:49
SPEAKER_02: And not meaning they they actually win the tournament or they win the game, but they feel good doing it.
57:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:56
SPEAKER_02: And that's a win.
57:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:57
SPEAKER_02: Or let's get you a job interview.
58:00
SPEAKER_02: Oh, someone's interested in hiring me.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: Right.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: That's a win.
58:03
SPEAKER_02: Right.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: You got through, you had success with the interview, that's another win.
58:09
SPEAKER_02: Now I'm gonna get hired by somebody and start a new job.
58:12
SPEAKER_02: That's a win.
58:13
SPEAKER_02: Like just any little small goals that we can set for them to get those reward systems in place and get them to keep going, get that momentum going, we'll we'll use.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the biggest problems is that parents don't know how to parent young adults.
58:29
SPEAKER_01: We some we somehow figure out how to, you know, feed them and teach them to walk and talk, but we we stop.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: Somehow parents stop when they become adults, maybe because of the resistance.
58:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm an adult now, you can't tell me what to do, which is ridiculous.
58:44
SPEAKER_01: But they parents lose their confidence as parents and they don't feel like they have that level of you know control or influence.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: And so they just pull back.
58:54
SPEAKER_01: And at the worst time, right?
58:56
SPEAKER_02: I I struggled with that transition from parenting my child to parenting my adult child.
59:01
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know what my role was.
59:03
SPEAKER_02: Who am I now?
59:04
SPEAKER_02: My parent, my friend, my advisor?
59:06
SPEAKER_02: Like, what is my role?
59:07
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
59:08
SPEAKER_02: They need to tell you what their role is.
59:10
SPEAKER_02: I will ask my my young adult men, how do you want your parents to show up for you now that you're an adult?
59:15
SPEAKER_02: That's important for them to know.
59:16
SPEAKER_02: Let's define that.
59:17
SPEAKER_02: Right.
59:17
SPEAKER_02: I think we don't transition kids into that end of the spectrum because we spend so much time directing and rescuing and problem solving.
59:29
SPEAKER_02: And when they're teens, that dialogue has to start shifting.
59:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
59:34
SPEAKER_02: They need to walk away from every conversation with you as teenagers, feeling you think they're capable.
59:39
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
59:39
SPEAKER_02: And if you rush in and rescue and problem solve, they're walking away going, My parents don't think I can do anything.
59:45
SPEAKER_02: They're always telling me what to do, blah, blah, blah, blah.
59:47
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
59:48
SPEAKER_02: And if you tell them what to do and it works, they can't take credit for it because it was your idea.
59:53
SPEAKER_02: Right.
59:53
SPEAKER_02: And if you tell them what to do and it doesn't work, it's all your fault.
59:57
SPEAKER_02: Right.
59:57
SPEAKER_02: So you're in a no-win situation as a parent anyway.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_02: You might as well let them figure it out.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to our world.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_02: And so sentences should be you might consider.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_02: Or have you considered instead of you should.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_02: And I wouldn't be giving them any advice unless they're asking for it.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_02: Unsolicited advice, always by chewing the butt.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm smiling because everything you're saying is everything we talk about.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like, oh, at least someone else is saying right.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_02: So you understand.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I say just be a sounding board.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_02: That's all they need.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_02: They're just trying to gauge if what they're feeling is real.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't matter what they're feeling, in their experience, it's real.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_01: But to be a sounding board, you have to ask the right questions.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_02: Or just validate.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_02: Huh.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_02: That sounds like that's frustrating.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:00:43
SPEAKER_02: That sounds like that upset you.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_02: And then they'll tell you a little more.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_02: And then you go, oh, I can see why that would frustrate you or upset you.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_02: Now they feel validated.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_02: Oh, what I'm feeling is normal.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_02: And then so just listening to themselves talk, they'll figure it out.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_02: If they can't, wait for them to ask.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_02: Then start with, you might consider this.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_02: You might consider this.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_02: Is there anything you've considered?
1:01:07
SPEAKER_02: I think you should make the decision that feels right for you.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_02: And if it needs to go one step further, we can sit down and go through the pros and cons of each, and then you can make the decision.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_02: But ultimately you need to make the decision.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_02: So we're going from coach to advisor.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_02: We're helping them walk through the process of how to problem solve for themselves.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_02: And that's so important.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_02: It's so important.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_02: Because they don't, it's a life skill.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_02: If they get to university and they don't have that skill in place, guess what happens?
1:01:37
SPEAKER_02: They're coming home.
1:01:38
unknown: Yeah.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_02: They're failing out.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: I love leaving on a positive note.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_01: That's that's just because a lot of these conversations can be very heavy.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_01: So one thing I want to know is how is Jake doing?
1:01:51
SPEAKER_01: He's doing great.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_02: He's doing so great.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_02: He's, yeah, it's almost eight years, no gaming at all.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_02: He is a software engineer.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_02: He's very successful with his job.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_02: He's lived on his own now for I think six years.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_02: Six years.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_02: Got himself a cat.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_02: That really helped.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_02: He loves his cat.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_02: He's got a ton of friends and a ton of activities he does.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_02: But he's doing really, really, really well.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_02: That's good to know.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_02: And he's he's uh 190 pounds.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_02: That's a marker for anything.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_02: That's a huge marker.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_02: We still talk about that.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_02: You know, 127 was wow.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_02: Scary weight.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_01: And the second positive note I want to leave on is what are the chances for any parent who's wondering, what are the chances for recovery?
1:02:41
SPEAKER_02: If you want to do the work, great.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh, good.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh for me, I surrender to the outcome.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna give you the same service that I give everyone else as a coach, and you're either gonna do the work or you're not.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_02: I can't control the outcome.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I can, you know, walk you through as many steps as I can to get you to a place of success.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_02: But for me, if I can turn my young guys around to developing lives that they feel meaningful outside of gaming, then they can have great success.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_02: Lots of my clients still game, but they're graduating university and heading into master's degree programs, or they've gotten great jobs, or they've excelled at their jobs and or their relationship with their family's much better.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_02: And they're they're at least, you know, not in their rooms all the time.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_02: And right and they're talking and they're they're eating and they're showering.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes just those small successes are really big successes.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I bet.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: I bet.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: Elaine, thank you so much for first of all sharing your story.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_01: I think it's an incredible story, and I love the fact that it was a catalyst for getting you to this point in your life where you've done so much work, which I think is invaluable, and that you're helping other parents.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_01: So I will leave your contact information in the show notes, and I really hope that parents reach out to you because I think that you will do a world of good for them and for their young adults.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you so much.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: I hope today's episode gave you valuable insights and actionable steps that will help you guide your young adult to launch successfully into adulthood.
1:04:24
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1:04:30
SPEAKER_01: Leaving a five-star review helps us reach more parents who are dealing with the same issues.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_01: And if there's something you want to ask me, I invite you to join Launch Advice, my weekly publication where I answer one question from parents just like you.
1:04:44
SPEAKER_01: It's free advice that will appear in your inbox probably when you need it the most.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_01: Just click Launch Advice in the show notes and don't forget to email me your confidential question.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_01: And remember, no one ever said parenting is easy, especially when you're raising an adult.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_01: Talk to you soon.