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The Motorsport Brief | Tim Schenken from the Garage back catalogue · Rusty's Garage

• 0:02
  A listener production.
• 0:04
  Welcome to the Motorsport Brief.
• 0:06
  A little something from our back catalogue heading into a fantastic fortnight of racing.
• 0:12
  G'day everyone, Rusty here, and I thought with the Monaco Grand Prix this week, the 24 hours of Le Mans the week after, it might be cool to take you back to Series 1 of the pod and a little slice from a feature episode that you mightn't even realise we have in our library.
• 0:26
  Tim Schenken is part of a small club of Aussies to stand on the podium in Formula 1, and that includes...
• 0:32
  The likes of Sir Jack Brabham and Alan Jones, the legends, as well as Mark Webber, Daniel Ricciardo, were all hoping that Oscar Piastri has a great weekend in Monaco and Tim has raced there too.
• 0:43
  He also went on to have a decorated sports car career driving for Ferrari.
• 0:47
  We recorded this chat in the build-up to the Australian Grand Prix back in 2018.
• 0:52
  We're outside the paddock gates before the event proper even got underway, sitting having a coffee in the beautiful autumn sunshine.
• 1:00
  I have always had a great relationship with Tim, dating back to his time as race director for the Australian Touring Car Championship and supercars.
• 1:08
  He still, to this day, greets me the same way.
• 1:10
  Hello, young man.
• 1:11
  After racing, he went on to have a significant chapter on the other side of the pit wall with what was known as CAMS, now Motorsport Australia, and as clerk of the course there at Albert Park.
• 1:23
  We pick up the convo as he's about to break into Formula One during the early 70s.
• 1:27
  A very cool but also dangerous era for the sport.
• 1:32
  Well, at the end of 69, I then progressed to the European Formula 3, sorry, Formula 2 championship, again with Sports Motors Manchester.
• 1:45
  That was a lot more competitive.
• 1:46
  In those days, you had Grand Prix drivers also competing in that.
• 1:51
  Although I didn't have a, I had reliability issues, but I had some good results and I could run towards the front.
• 1:59
  And then during the year, there was that terrible accident of Piers Courage who was killed at Zanvoort driving Frank Williams' Di Tommaso car.
• 2:10
  Formula One car.
• 2:12
  And I sort of knew Frank.
• 2:15
  I knew Frank, I guess, just to say hello.
• 2:17
  But I took a deep breath after that and went to see him and to ask if he'd consider me driving after Piers.
• 2:27
  And he said yes.
• 2:28
  So that was the start of it.
• 2:30
  And I have to tell you, that was a deep breath to have to go and make an approach like that.
• 2:35
  But as I say, he agreed.
• 2:38
  And I think I did the last...
• 2:40
  four or five Grands Prix in 1970.
• 2:43
  I don't think I finished anything.
• 2:44
  The car broke every time, but that was the way it was.
• 2:47
  It was, to come back to your point about the dangers, that Formula One, its safety record now is super impressive.
• 2:54
  There's always a constant navel gaze and constant way to improve the sport.
• 2:59
  It was enormously dangerous back then.
• 3:00
  Were you ever, you know, how aware of that were you?
• 3:03
  Did you just compartmentalise that and park it out of your mind?
• 3:05
  What did you do?
• 3:07
  Well, I suppose I might have been a bit naive or you believed in yourself.
• 3:12
  I don't really know what the answer is.
• 3:13
  It was horrendous because there were some terrible tragedies and you lost a driver at a race meeting.
• 3:22
  You might have gone to a funeral or there might have been a lot of publicity about it in the newspapers because at that time the newspapers were only interested in Formula One and crashes and fatalities.
• 3:34
  But then you'd be at another race meeting the following weekend, and it was as if nothing had happened.
• 3:39
  So I think it was just a belief it wouldn't happen to you.
• 3:43
  And in this, in sort of my situation, I think a lot of sportsmen are the same.
• 3:48
  You're so passionate about something, you don't see the downside.
• 3:51
  You don't see that.
• 3:52
  And certainly in motor racing, I didn't see the tragedy.
• 3:56
  The flip side, of course, is that the chance to drive a Formula One car is, I would imagine, just this intoxicating thing.
• 4:05
  What did it feel like to drive?
• 4:07
  What are your memories of those first experiences in Formula One?
• 4:11
  I suppose the first experiences were, it seemed very odd to me because I used to stand behind the fence, look over the fence at places like Sandown and watch the Tasman series and there was Stewart and Brabham and Holm and McLaren and Sertes and these people racing there and then some years later I was on the grid with them.
• 4:35
  So that was sort of an odd sort of feeling but
• 4:40
  In a way, you very quickly weren't intimidated by, maybe initially a bit, but then once you got racing, it was just another race car, another driver you were trying to beat.
• 4:50
  From the Formula One side of things, there's some great old pictures of you with very suave-looking Tim Schenken with sideburns, with the likes of Graham Hill, with Ronnie Peterson, who you mentioned before.
• 5:02
  It was an incredible era for the sport and some legendary names that came through.
• 5:06
  It must have been amazing to be a part of.
• 5:08
  Yes, it is, but, well, it was, should I say.
• 5:11
  And I look back at that now, to be honest, and it's almost as if it was another life.
• 5:18
  Really?
• 5:19
  It's hard to believe.
• 5:20
  You know, I was up there doing Formula One so many years ago, but...
• 5:26
  You were never very close to the drivers because, of course, they were the enemy.
• 5:31
  I don't know another word for it because they were the people you were passionate about beating.
• 5:35
  So I'd never, apart from Ronnie Peterson, I didn't really know, you didn't really have a close relationship with any of the other drivers.
• 5:44
  You just kept your distance.
• 5:45
  The record shows a podium there over 34 starts in the game, but it probably didn't yield you, it's fair to say, the kind of success that you'd enjoyed in the Formula just beneath it.
• 5:57
  Timing's a big thing in Formula 1.
• 5:58
  It really depends on the car that you get in.
• 6:00
  I mean, it's not a question of your ability.
• 6:02
  It's also about the wheels beneath you, isn't it?
• 6:05
  Yeah, that's true.
• 6:06
  And I mean, I had that year with Brabham's end of the year.
• 6:13
  Ron Turanac told me that he'd sold the company to Bernie Eccleston.
• 6:18
  I sort of knew Bernie a little bit.
• 6:21
  He would have been looking after Joachim Rinton, I think, giving his advice to Emerson Fittipaldi.
• 6:28
  Ron actually said, well, I'm not sure how this chap's going to run the business.
• 6:31
  Maybe you should look somewhere else.
• 6:33
  So I went off to 30s and he could say that was an error.
• 6:38
  Perhaps I should have stayed with Eccleston.
• 6:40
  He certainly knew how to run a race team.
• 6:43
  And it didn't work out with Sirties.
• 6:45
  I mean, I had great relationship problems with John Sirties, as many of the drivers who drove for him did.
• 6:52
  But when I look back now, look, I'm here today.
• 6:56
  And you spoke about the tragedies and whatever.
• 6:59
  And I look at a grid in one of the races I'd driven in the 70s, and I look who's around today.
• 7:05
  I mean, it's quite a moment when you do that because so few of them are around today.
• 7:11
  You mentioned Ron Turanac there a moment ago, legendary Australian engineer in many respects with Sir Jack Bradham and working with him.
• 7:18
  You also got to work with a very young Ron Dennis, didn't you, with what was Rondell Racing back then before he went on and became a very significant figure in the sport with McLaren and very successful in the sport as a team owner.
• 7:31
  Well, that's right.
• 7:31
  I met Ron and his partner, Neil Trundle, that's how Rondell was formed, the name Rondell was formed, because they were mechanics for Jack's team.
• 7:42
  So when I was doing Formula 3 and Formula 2, I was down at the factory.
• 7:46
  So I knew those two lads.
• 7:48
  But in 70, must have been 71, Ron had bigger plans.
• 7:55
  And he had found someone who'd be prepared to back him.
• 8:00
  And
• 8:01
  I think Ron Torenak lent him a couple of cars just without the engine for the year to go and campaign the European Formula 2 championship.
• 8:12
  So with Graham Hill, who also agreed to drive with Ron, we went and started with Ron then.
• 8:21
  And I think your next question is going to be, did you see where Ron was going?
• 8:25
  Well, sort of now when I look back,
• 8:27
  I did because Ron's cars were beautifully prepared.
• 8:30
  His truck was always very clean.
• 8:35
  People, you know, he had a dream and a presentation was part of that.
• 8:41
  And if you're going to find sponsors, you've obviously got to have...
• 8:46
  the presentation is so important and some people sort of they called him team dream or they called him team briefcase he was one of the first uh formula one or first team managers or team owners should i say not necessarily formula one with a briefcase so uh they were perhaps a bit unkind to him but uh you know they were great times actually great times
• 9:08
  When we come back, some wonderful memories of his time in sports cars with Ferrari and brushing Enzo.
• 9:14
  Tim will explain why and how it all worked out in just a few moments.
• 9:20
  This is a special edition of the Rusty's Garage shortcast with a flashback to an ep in our first season that you mightn't even realise is in our library of feature with Tim Schenken, the Aussie who made it to Formula One and as you're about to hear, ahead of the Le Mans 24 Hour, had a successful career in sports cars too.
• 9:38
  Let's get back to the chat now.
• 9:41
  I want to touch on your sports car career now.
• 9:43
  It was wonderful to see Ferrari embrace you, I think, as part of their 70th anniversary celebrations.
• 9:48
  You had a great chapter in your career with them, sports car racing.
• 9:52
  How did that, I mean, you always seemed to, drivers back then seemed to do so much racing, whether it was open wheelers or sports cars, whatever it may have been, but how did the entree into sports car racing come about?
• 10:03
  Well, that started 1971 at Monza.
• 10:08
  And during, I was driving for Badmins, it was the Grand Prix, and a girl came up to, a woman came up to me and said that I should come to the Ferrari track after practice to meet their team manager, Peter Shetty, talk about sports car racing the following year with Ferrari.
• 10:25
  There had already been an announcement Ferrari was going to enter some cars.
• 10:30
  I think it was the World Championship of Makes, I think the championship was called then.
• 10:35
  And to be honest, I thought it was someone having a lend of me, so I ignored that.
• 10:40
  And then later, after the next practice, the woman came out, it had been the following day, came up.
• 10:47
  And again, I said, oh, yeah, when I've got time, I'll pop down.
• 10:50
  So, and then eventually she came again and said, look, Mr. Schenken, if you don't come with me now, there won't be an opportunity for you to drive for Ferrari.
• 11:00
  And I thought, oh, maybe I should just follow her.
• 11:02
  So I still had my overalls on and I followed.
• 11:05
  I sort of kept a few steps behind her, just down to the Ferrari transporter, or truck as it was in those days, and thinking, oh, at any moment someone's going to say, hey, you idiot, Shenkin.
• 11:19
  But we got all the way to the truck, into the truck.
• 11:21
  Peter Shetty there, he was in a hell of a state because Enzo Ferrari had come up the night before to meet me.
• 11:27
  They'd had to stay overnight.
• 11:29
  You brushed Enzo Ferrari?
• 11:31
  Well, I didn't know I'd brushed him off until that moment.
• 11:36
  And so still with my overalls on, they took me immediately to a village just near Monza and into the dining room there in the back corner was Enzo Ferrari.
• 11:46
  So with an interpreter...
• 11:48
  I did my deal there.
• 11:49
  So they probably thought I was super cool, but frankly, I thought I was being tricked.
• 11:55
  What was he like?
• 11:56
  I mean, he's just a remarkable figure in the history of anything automotive.
• 12:01
  What was he like to work with and to talk to and deal with?
• 12:06
  Well, I didn't really work with him because apart from signing a contract and then later on when we were racing, we'd do a test session with the sports cars, maybe at Monza he would turn up or the following year Firano opened and he would always come there if the cars were running there.
• 12:24
  Have lunch with him as well at the factory in Maranello.
• 12:30
  But the thing about Enzo was that
• 12:35
  you could tell he was a special person.
• 12:37
  There was something about him.
• 12:38
  It's the same with Ayette and Senna.
• 12:41
  They're sort of special people.
• 12:42
  You can't put your finger on it, but when you're talking to them, you know you're with someone who's different from everyone else.
• 12:48
  A kind of aura, I guess you could say.
• 12:50
  Yes, yes.
• 12:51
  So you enjoyed success in endurance races with them from the 1000k race in Buenos Aires, also at the Nürburgring.
• 13:01
  Why did it work so well for you?
• 13:02
  Was it cars?
• 13:03
  Was it the combo of people?
• 13:04
  I mean, that's a pretty special chapter.
• 13:07
  Well, first of all, the first year I was driving with Ronnie Peterson, and Ronnie Peterson was the quickest thing in motor racing in those days.
• 13:16
  They used to say about Ronnie, he only had two speeds, either flat out or at home in the garage.
• 13:23
  So that was a great driving with Ronnie.
• 13:24
  But Ronnie was such a natural driver, he didn't have any set up skills.
• 13:30
  So quite often he'd run the car first.
• 13:32
  I'd got in and drive the car and I had trouble driving the thing quickly and adjust the car, got the car right.
• 13:38
  When that first happened, I thought, my God, he's going to blitz me in times.
• 13:43
  He never actually went any faster.
• 13:45
  It just made the car easier to drive and it took less out on the car and the tyres and the brakes and whatever else.
• 13:52
  But, I mean, they were great times.
• 13:56
  And we had some pretty formidable teammates.
• 13:59
  Had Ix and Andretti and Redmond there as well.
• 14:04
  They had the token Italian driver, Turo Mazzario.
• 14:08
  But they were, you know, they were pretty formidable.
• 14:10
  And we had the best cars in 72.
• 14:12
  Was it 72?
• 14:13
  Yes, 72.
• 14:16
  In 73 is a different story.
• 14:19
  Ferrari pulled back a bit on their sports car program to concentrate on Formula One.
• 14:23
  My teammate was Carlos Reutemann.
• 14:26
  And I got on well with Carlos, so we're the same size like Ronnie, we like the car set up the same.
• 14:33
  But the competition was the Matra team, who came with a monocoque chassis, and because Matra was involved in the aircraft industry, the aerodynamics of the car were properly designed, refined, and they were a much better car.
• 14:50
  So we weren't king of the kids, but...
• 14:53
  in King of the Mountain in 73.
• 14:56
  Describe for us the 72 car, because, you know, we're talking open-top sports car.
• 15:04
  What kind of engine?
• 15:05
  How much horsepower?
• 15:07
  What was it like to steer?
• 15:08
  Well, they had the flat 12, 3-litre Formula One engine, detuned slightly because they were 1,000-kilometre racers.
• 15:14
  I guess it had 450 brake horsepower.
• 15:17
  It was a tube chassis, short wheelbase, so they were quite difficult to drive through fast corners.
• 15:25
  The following year, they had better aerodynamics than the longer...
• 15:29
  a longer wheelbase but uh so it was your typical sports car of the time a lovely gearbox in the Ferrari very different from the Hewland gearbox was heavy and clunky the Ferrari gearbox you could just change with your two fingers it was a lovely gearbox you had an opportunity if I'm right here to buy one at some stage why didn't you do you regret that and tell us about that story
• 15:55
  Well, yes, at the end of 72, it must have been Enzo Ferrari offered the drivers you could buy one of those cars.
• 16:05
  And he offered them for £12,500, which today is about $25,000.
• 16:12
  And you'd say today, well, Tim, why didn't you buy them all?
• 16:18
  Well, £12,500 was a lot of money.
• 16:20
  And just to sort of put it into context, I had a house in Maidenhead, which was a nice area just outside London.
• 16:29
  which I bought for £7,000, and I had a mortgage on it to pay it off.
• 16:37
  So when you look today at the value of that house, and maybe the Ferrari would be worth a fair bit more, but that sort of puts it in context.
• 16:46
  You could buy a house standing on its own, three bedrooms, for £7,000, and...
• 16:52
  or a Ferrari race car, which was no good to me because, well, you know, what was I going on?
• 16:58
  People paid me to drive their cars.
• 17:00
  I didn't think ahead of what the value of this could be.
• 17:03
  I don't think anybody did in those days for nearly double the amount.
• 17:08
  Crazy.
• 17:09
  Was it 312B?
• 17:10
  Which car was it?
• 17:11
  Well, I think they call it 312 PB because there's a bit of confusion because they also refer to the Formula One car of the time as a 312 B.
• 17:19
  So I think they put PB in front of it.
• 17:22
  Prototype Boxster.
• 17:23
  Boxster's the type of engine.
• 17:24
  Some great circuits you got to drive at during your career.
• 17:29
  People listening will be very interested in Nürburgring or Nordschleife.
• 17:32
  I mean, it's still...
• 17:33
  looked upon as this daunting yet, you know, it's a must-see, a must-do place if you can.
• 17:40
  What was it like to drive some of those cars in that period around that place?
• 17:45
  Well, you know, I quite enjoyed the Nürburgring.
• 17:47
  I don't know why a lot of people talk about it as being the green hell and this, that and the other.
• 17:52
  But for some reason, it just seemed to suit my style.
• 17:55
  But I started first at Nürburgring in 1969, it must have been, driving for Ford Germany in a 72-hour touring car race.
• 18:06
  LAUGHTER
• 18:07
  with three drivers on the north and south circuit.
• 18:10
  So the total lap distance was 30 kilometres.
• 18:14
  That's incredible.
• 18:15
  Could you ever properly familiarise this?
• 18:18
  I know that's a long race, so maybe you could, but did you ever feel like you've absolutely mastered that?
• 18:23
  Well, you never quite master the Nürburgring.
• 18:25
  It's funny because when you race against, if you're racing against another driver, you find that in some parts you're sort of, you're better than he is, and other bits he's better than you are.
• 18:38
  But I've always sort of had a knack of learning roads, learning tracks, so...
• 18:43
  We didn't finish the 72-hour race, but once I'd practised and started the race, I was there a couple of years ago and I could drive around.
• 18:57
  I knew which way the corners went, so over Blind Crest and whatever.
• 19:02
  Not that I was driving the same speed as in a race car, but you just remember these things.
• 19:08
  He went on to drive a Porsche to second in class at Le Mans in 1976.
• 19:14
  And he even worked as a constructor too, which we talked about in that full episode, including his fabulous early days of his career, sneaking out the family car to contest events.
• 19:25
  He rightly has gone on to earn an OAM and is in the Australian Motorsport Hall of Fame too.
• 19:30
  I'll put that link in the description for you.
• 19:33
  good stuff in the pod pipeline coming up including michael dowson a legend on two wheels who was good enough many believe for moto gp and went on to do some things on the international stage he played an important part in helping to open doors for mcdoin as you'll hear plus wowing toyota in touring cars at places like lakeside and bathurst we'll release that in the next week so keep an eye out for it bye for now