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Hamster Book Club - Warriors' Gate & Beyond · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:01
  The even regular forces that normally held the TARDIS in
• 0:05
  shape were starting to bend. The outer door was opening onto
• 0:10
  nowhere. The slip widened and a white fog
• 0:14
  started to blow in under pressure.
• 0:17
  It was backlit brightly and moved by forces The Doctor had
• 0:21
  never believed he'd see the time winds.
• 0:25
  The Doctor shouted a warning, but it was unheard.
• 0:29
  He reached Adric and pulled him back just as the full brilliance
• 0:32
  of the light hit the console. Romana crouched in its shadow as
• 0:36
  glass covers popped and exploded and the panelling started to
• 0:39
  burn. The doors were wide open and the
• 0:43
  time winds ran through canine like desert sands.
• 0:47
  Not that the Doctor could watch for long, because his attention
• 0:50
  had become fixed on the maelstrom to which the TARDIS
• 0:52
  had been opened out in the Void. Somebody was running too far
• 0:58
  away to make out, yet it was definitely a figure in roughly
• 1:01
  human shape. It fought it's way nearer and
• 1:05
  finally crossed the edge of the Void and entered the control
• 1:07
  room through the inner doors. The stranger turned and took a
• 1:11
  hold on them, his face towards the battering.
• 1:14
  Now he started to put his strength into closing the
• 1:17
  tardies. The stranger was tall and broad,
• 1:20
  shouldered, basically human in form, although his features were
• 1:24
  like those of a lion. His hands were broad paws held
• 1:27
  in a curve, and what showed of his face, head and chest was
• 1:31
  covered with a tawny gold fur that was swept back in a mane.
• 1:36
  His ears were high and pointed, his mouth wide with the tiny
• 1:39
  points of Fang showing. He wore a baggy white
• 1:42
  swashbuckler shirt that was torn and stained in a couple of
• 1:45
  places he might have been on the run from a fairy tale.
• 1:51
  The doors were closed, the time winds excluded, even though the
• 1:55
  more immediate danger had been suppressed.
• 1:58
  Still, the tardy shook with the hammering of the void at the
• 2:02
  console, Ramana and the Doctor watched as the alien set in
• 2:05
  coordinates. We've got to stop him, Ramana
• 2:09
  said, but the Doctor put a restraining hand on her arm.
• 2:13
  Don't touch him, he warned. But watch his hand.
• 2:18
  They watched. It drifted across the console.
• 2:21
  The coordinate keys sank and lighted only moments after it
• 2:25
  had moved on. He isn't fully on our timeline,
• 2:29
  the Doctor said, sounding pretty certain even though he was only
• 2:32
  guessing. The alien rotated the lever that
• 2:36
  would make the coordinates effective, and almost
• 2:38
  immediately the rumblings that shook the TARDIS were
• 2:41
  underpinned by a more even vibration.
• 2:44
  What is he? Romana breathed.
• 2:47
  What did he do? The Doctor had no ready answer
• 2:51
  other than to state the obvious. I think we've just been
• 2:55
  hijacked. Welcome back to the Hamster Book
• 3:12
  Club. My name is Joe Ford and once
• 3:15
  again the dream team of Luke and Andrew are here.
• 3:19
  Hello boys. Hello, I mean just at the same.
• 3:23
  Time so enthusiastic at 8:00 on a Sunday night.
• 3:27
  Oh no, wait, it isn't 8:00 on a Sunday night, is it?
• 3:30
  No, it's 7:00 AM on a Monday morning.
• 3:33
  It's all right. I'm a bit of a morning person
• 3:35
  these days, so it's all good. A time traveller.
• 3:39
  Hi Luke, Shadow of your future. Rather like the intersection
• 3:45
  between E space and N space. We have two separate time
• 3:49
  periods here. Hang on, where's the mirror
• 3:51
  though? Between us?
• 3:54
  We'll just say it's not on the zoom call.
• 3:56
  Thank you, Andrew. Thank you.
• 3:57
  Thank you for that. We are here today to talk about
• 4:01
  Warriors Gate and beyond. Now I realise there was a bit of
• 4:05
  confusion around this, where I seem to suggest on social media
• 4:09
  that we were doing the John Lydecker version of Warriors
• 4:12
  Gate and Andrew got a bit. Perturbed that he'd read the
• 4:15
  wrong book? Has everybody read Warriors Gate
• 4:18
  and Beyond? Oh, right.
• 4:19
  How good. I'm so delayed.
• 4:24
  Has everyone read the original 1?
• 4:25
  No. No.
• 4:27
  Not only for Revive Wow, Strange, So we.
• 4:29
  None of us can talk from experience of how they how
• 4:32
  they're different. No, no.
• 4:34
  Well. We're no good at all, Are we
• 4:35
  wish if. Three other people should do
• 4:37
  this recording. Well, you've been listening to
• 4:38
  Hamster Book Club. See you later.
• 4:40
  Bye but. I did rewatch the TV version.
• 4:44
  Oh, did you look? Yes.
• 4:47
  Well, I've recently bought season 18 on the on the Blu-ray,
• 4:50
  so it's kind of fresh. Yeah.
• 4:53
  I've recently done season 18 for Strictly Come Hamster, so I
• 4:56
  watched it then. Although I do tend to watch
• 4:58
  Warriors Gate about twice a year, it's one of my go to re
• 5:00
  watches. But before we talk about
• 5:04
  Warriors Gate, I have very recently, as in 25 minutes ago
• 5:09
  asked lovely people to dig into your memories and extract a
• 5:15
  Doctor Who author that you think is somewhat under represented in
• 5:21
  conversation. So somebody that you like that
• 5:24
  doesn't really get the focus of the big hisses and I am going to
• 5:28
  throw this out to Luke first. OK so I just do what I usually
• 5:36
  do for when I think like this. I'm like list of EDA's.
• 5:41
  I know you're going to say I'm. Scrolling through and I've I've
• 5:46
  found him. This is a writer.
• 5:48
  I don't like all of his books but what I do find is he's
• 5:53
  always doing something interesting and I've and I don't
• 5:57
  know. I just.
• 5:58
  I just like him and he's a writer who's I don't hear his
• 6:01
  name mentioned. I don't think he's on social
• 6:03
  media. I'm not even sure if this man is
• 6:05
  alive. Please be alive because I like
• 6:07
  your work and if. You say Michael Collier, I've
• 6:11
  got a a surprise for you. I like Fitz, but I'm not insane.
• 6:14
  Come on man. It is Paul Leonard.
• 6:19
  I think he did an OK new adventure with Toy Soldiers was
• 6:22
  interesting but his missing adventures were great.
• 6:25
  Especially Venetian Lullaby. And I like, I like to love a lot
• 6:32
  of his Eighth Doctor range. Genocide is not bad.
• 6:35
  Dreamster Moon and he's fine. Revolution Man and the Turing
• 6:38
  Test. Absolutely fantastic.
• 6:41
  And I don't think I got the last resort, so I feel like I need to
• 6:45
  give that another read at some point.
• 6:47
  But I remember that being too clever for my young 20 something
• 6:53
  brain at the time I read it. But he's a name I don't even
• 6:55
  hear anymore in terms of even someone who's alive, right?
• 7:00
  Is he cancelled? Did I?
• 7:01
  It might. I don't think he's cancelled.
• 7:03
  And I don't think he's said either.
• 7:04
  I just don't think he's writing Doctor Who books anymore.
• 7:06
  Please don't spread scandalous gossip on this podcast.
• 7:10
  Paul Leonard, if you're out there, please get in touch so we
• 7:13
  know you're safe and well. Please.
• 7:17
  Do you know what? Right.
• 7:18
  You know, the last resort. I was reading that book, right?
• 7:22
  And I was like, Oh my God, this is awful.
• 7:24
  From scene to scene. He's getting all the details
• 7:27
  wrong, something he's established in the last scene.
• 7:30
  No, the editor literally has fallen asleep.
• 7:32
  And then I realised every bloody scene is set in another universe
• 7:36
  and all the details are supposed to be.
• 7:37
  It's a very clever book, but boy, you got have your brain
• 7:40
  switched on to read that one. I didn't.
• 7:47
  It's fair. So what do you like about him
• 7:49
  then? I like.
• 7:52
  I like a good book. That makes me feel like I'm in
• 7:55
  the era in which I'm reading. He did that with his two
• 7:59
  Pertwee's was doing something really different.
• 8:01
  He took Yates in the in the TARDIS in speed of flight.
• 8:05
  He said a unit story in the the Middle East and thinking dancing
• 8:08
  the code, which is kind of different.
• 8:09
  He took unit out of England which is nice.
• 8:12
  Venice in all away. He went to Venus with and it's
• 8:16
  just Ian and Barbara. We never really got just Ian
• 8:18
  Barbara's stories before the rescue.
• 8:20
  So I like those. And for me, I think he's got a
• 8:26
  pretty good handle on the 8th Doctor stuff.
• 8:29
  I feel like Revolution Man is such a wonderful little story
• 8:34
  that I feel like he's underrated, not talked about
• 8:36
  that much. And The Turing Test, I think
• 8:40
  he's his best book. It's also the book where I
• 8:43
  already always knew the name of Alan Turing, but this book
• 8:46
  really kind of cemented who he is and what happened to him to
• 8:53
  me and for that, just for just for that.
• 8:57
  And that's like an old Doctor Who remit, isn't it?
• 9:00
  Pick a big piece of history, educate your audience.
• 9:03
  He kind of did that with me and Alan Turing.
• 9:05
  So yeah, he's he's an author that's managed to stick in my
• 9:09
  head. So just for those reasons.
• 9:11
  He wasn't afraid to make the 8th socks a bit edgy.
• 9:15
  We'll see. So at the end of revolution,
• 9:17
  man, he picks up a gun. I remember there was an outcry
• 9:20
  about that ending at the end of the Turing test.
• 9:23
  He's using Turing, isn't he, to get to those aliens to try and
• 9:26
  get off Earth. So it's sort of the 3rd doctor
• 9:29
  thing again of using, you know, using the people around him to
• 9:32
  try and get away and then at the end with the last resort he's
• 9:35
  working with Sabbath, isn't that one, Isn't he?
• 9:37
  But things have gotten so bad, the whole multiverse has
• 9:40
  shattered apart that he's having to work with this, you know,
• 9:43
  Devil figure in order to try and pull it all together.
• 9:48
  Yeah it's it's good stuff he and after the last resort I feel
• 9:53
  like he kind of dropped off like and this is like his mic drop
• 9:58
  and you will never hear from me ever again.
• 10:01
  That's my final statement on Doctor Who by oh.
• 10:06
  Do you know we had a very strong friendship?
• 10:07
  With Jim Mortimer, and I think you can tell because as his
• 10:10
  books went along, they got more Mortimer esque, you know, with
• 10:13
  lots and lots of people and worlds dying horribly.
• 10:18
  Let's see. I can definitely see that now.
• 10:21
  OK, that's a good choice. Yeah.
• 10:22
  And I think everyone, I think everyone's probably got a letter
• 10:25
  book that they really like, and everyone's probably got a letter
• 10:28
  book that they don't. But I think genocide is dismal
• 10:32
  for what it does to poor. Joe Graham.
• 10:35
  I'm glad that's not what Rusty Davis went with when he brought
• 10:38
  her back. Well, Andrew, well, who have you
• 10:40
  got for us? Well, I almost chose Paul
• 10:44
  Leonard. They didn't.
• 10:48
  But Paul Leonard Dancing the Code was the first missing or
• 10:52
  new adventure that I read because I found it in a like a
• 10:56
  Remainders bookshop when I was on holiday in Cornwall.
• 11:00
  And I was much too young to read it and it was very violent, but
• 11:03
  I loved it. Yeah, and Turing Test is also
• 11:06
  amazing. So yes, very good.
• 11:10
  But I also chose a 8th Doctor Adventures writer and another
• 11:16
  one who also seems to have kind of dropped off and you don't
• 11:19
  really hear from anymore. I chose Lloyd Rose, who wrote
• 11:24
  City of the Dead Camera Obscura and the Algebra of Ice, which I
• 11:28
  haven't read. But yeah, her stuff was amazing
• 11:32
  and I just. I had a quick look at her
• 11:34
  Wikipedia before before doing this.
• 11:37
  Is she alive? She.
• 11:38
  Well, if she's not Wikipedia, but she's she's also written for
• 11:45
  TV. She wrote for, like homicide.
• 11:50
  Like the American Crime Show you mean?
• 11:52
  Homicide. Life on the street.
• 11:54
  Yeah, is her name. Is her name Serotonin?
• 11:57
  Isn't it Sarah Tonin? Yes, it was something like.
• 12:00
  Serotonin. Pen name or something?
• 12:03
  No, I'm not taking the piss. Not Serotonin Sarah Twin or
• 12:08
  something like that. Yeah, so it was, yeah, which is
• 12:12
  I was interested to see that, you know she had success in in
• 12:15
  another writing arena as well because her her 8th Doctor stuff
• 12:20
  is really good and it's obvious that she's kind of like a
• 12:22
  massive fan of the new adventures.
• 12:25
  So reading her 8th Doctor adventures, they kind of have
• 12:28
  more of that flavour of of of the Nas and you've kind of got
• 12:31
  like the 8th Doctor sort of just wandering in and have, sorry,
• 12:34
  the 7th Doctor wandering in and having a cameo in her books.
• 12:38
  But yeah, they're they're ones which for me really stick in the
• 12:41
  mind because they're really visual and full of strong ideas.
• 12:45
  So like the one that's set in New Orleans, City of the Dead.
• 12:50
  There's still bits from that that kind of just like crop up
• 12:53
  in my in my memory every now and get that now and again and that
• 12:57
  image of the TARDIS on the cover kind of landing in the in the
• 13:01
  graveyard in New Orleans. And they're also kind of like
• 13:05
  really adult and really dark, but in like, not in a way that's
• 13:11
  kind of the right version of that.
• 13:12
  It doesn't feel like it's trying to shock you.
• 13:14
  It's just there because that's the kind of story it's trying to
• 13:17
  tell. So if there's like sex and death
• 13:19
  and violence, it doesn't feel gratuitous in her book and it
• 13:21
  doesn't feel kind of like adolescent like it can in some
• 13:25
  of some of the other new and 8th Doctor adventures.
• 13:30
  And yeah, Camera Obscura. Also great massive arc book with
• 13:34
  the with all the stuff that goes on with the 8th Doctor's heart.
• 13:39
  Yeah, I'd love to revisit some of her books because, yeah, very
• 13:43
  memorable from that era. Well, coming soon to the Hamster
• 13:46
  Book Club, The City of the Dead, And actually, that one's been.
• 13:49
  Taken, but we'll do camera obscura.
• 13:51
  Well, or maybe Alex for a Vice, because I haven't, I haven't
• 13:53
  read that 10. I'll be interested to see what
• 13:55
  you think of that, because it's a huge departure from the stuff
• 13:57
  she did before. I just remember in camera, I
• 14:00
  mean, I think camera Obscura is one of the best ever.
• 14:02
  I've doctor books. It is like the pros.
• 14:05
  It's just delicious. And there's a whole sequence,
• 14:07
  isn't it, where he's going over the Moors, being chased by that
• 14:11
  horrible creature that's sort of described in a way that you
• 14:15
  can't visualize it and sort of scraping across the ground after
• 14:18
  him. And he's trying to remember the
• 14:21
  Sherlock Holmes quote, isn't he? About the IT was the the
• 14:24
  footprint of a terrifying hound. And the whole chapter he's
• 14:28
  trying to escape. He's trying to remember this
• 14:29
  line. So it's witty as well.
• 14:31
  Ah, she was a brilliant writer. Yeah, and one one of the few
• 14:35
  women who've written for the series.
• 14:36
  So it's kind of a a shame that, yeah, she hasn't written more
• 14:41
  more recently. Maybe she doesn't want to, and
• 14:44
  that's fine. But she writes TV now.
• 14:46
  She don't need Justin Richardson doctoring books anymore.
• 14:50
  I'm wondering to have the 8th Doctor books and the past doctor
• 14:53
  books continued. She would have been like the
• 14:55
  Kate Ormond of that range. She would have just kept kept
• 14:58
  going and. Yeah, it felt she felt like one
• 15:00
  of those authors who had like all this pent up stuff that she
• 15:03
  wanted to do with the books and could have been a sort of
• 15:07
  guiding for in the way that like Paul Cornell and and Kate Ormond
• 15:11
  were for the new adventures. That felt like if they had
• 15:12
  continued that, she probably would have been a strong voice
• 15:15
  there. Well, she tortures the Doctor
• 15:19
  about as much as Kate Ormond does as well.
• 15:23
  I'd never forget that bit you said about the 7th Doctor.
• 15:25
  She remember where we go into the Doctor's head in camera
• 15:27
  obscura. And he's there, isn't he?
• 15:29
  And there's thousands of blossoms behind him.
• 15:32
  He's sitting under the tree and he's like, go away and get away
• 15:35
  from here. And that's the Doctor getting
• 15:37
  close to those Time Lord memories that we learned about
• 15:39
  in the Gallifrey. Those bits were so tantalising,
• 15:43
  I know. Because.
• 15:44
  It was like, this is what we want.
• 15:45
  We just want him to remember. And she was on those authors who
• 15:49
  just like Drip fed a little bit, but then it didn't ever really
• 15:52
  lead to anything. I'm so sorry, Andrew.
• 15:54
  If we do the algebra US, we may have to do Camera obscure as
• 15:57
  well. You've enticed me too much now.
• 15:59
  And let's throw in the Turing test as well, Luke.
• 16:01
  All right, We can't do all the best ones, so we can't do this
• 16:04
  shit someday. Oh wait, what?
• 16:09
  I would also like to recommend a female author and somebody who
• 16:15
  produced a couple of books for the BBC and then a fair few
• 16:19
  books for the new series of ventures.
• 16:22
  That's Jacqueline Rayner, who I think is an exceptional talent
• 16:26
  in every way. Everything.
• 16:28
  She basically touches, her audios, her books, I think
• 16:30
  they're all great. I think Earth World is a
• 16:32
  beautiful piece for Angie Kapoor, very funny in how this
• 16:37
  future world depicts of history. And so you can have this sort of
• 16:41
  weird mash up, you have Elvis Presley in a Roman ring and
• 16:45
  things like this. You know, all this crazy stuff
• 16:46
  going on. But running through it is this
• 16:49
  character story of Angie having just lost Dave and coming to
• 16:53
  terms with that with a beautiful ending where the doctor takes
• 16:56
  her to the butterfly room and and he just says to her Angie
• 16:59
  it's life and she just breaks down in his arms.
• 17:02
  It's gorgeous. But she also wrote Wolfsbane for
• 17:05
  the past Doctor Adventures, which is where they were bumping
• 17:08
  off loads of companions for some reason or other.
• 17:11
  That's explained later in the tick box exercise, otherwise
• 17:14
  known as sometime Never. That's.
• 17:18
  Andrew's words, not mine. All right.
• 17:21
  I think it was a good tick box exercise.
• 17:25
  Coming soon sometime Never. Hamster Book Club.
• 17:27
  Sorry, I'm building a list here, but I think Wolfpane's great as
• 17:32
  well. It's a great horror book and it
• 17:33
  mixes the 4th Doctor and the 8th Doctor in a really clever way.
• 17:38
  Then she also wrote the glass prison for Big Finish, which is
• 17:41
  I think you guys read that and one of the it's one of the best
• 17:45
  Doctor Who sort of spin off books you're ever going to read.
• 17:48
  Bernie Summerfield trapped in a glass prison about to give birth
• 17:53
  to her son and there's a murder mystery going on and everyone's
• 17:57
  out to kill her. And at the same, she's just
• 17:59
  about to pop and before the end of the book she has to give
• 18:02
  birth, completely exposed to everybody else in this prison.
• 18:05
  It is just an and it's all a dumb first person from her point
• 18:09
  of view. It's just extraordinary.
• 18:12
  Yeah, I just, I think she writes like Terrace Dicks.
• 18:14
  It's very simple prose, very readable prose, but she's got
• 18:19
  more of an edge with her characters than Terrace Dicks.
• 18:22
  So she's an awful that makes me feel a lot.
• 18:24
  So I don't know why people don't talk about Jacqueline Rayner
• 18:27
  more, because I think she's exceptional.
• 18:29
  Yeah, those bits in wolfsbane where you get the sense of
• 18:33
  Harry's crush on Sarah Jane. But yeah, it's lovely little
• 18:37
  little character bits in that. I get the sense that's not
• 18:40
  Sarah, that's Jacqueline. Rain has got a massive crush on
• 18:45
  Harry Sullivan, you know. Mind you, have you seen Ian Mar
• 18:48
  in AT shirt? I mean, you would.
• 18:50
  Wouldn't you? Great choices.
• 19:01
  Well, I suppose we should move on to our book of the week.
• 19:05
  Sorry, at the pace I do these things, Book of the month.
• 19:08
  And that is Warriors gate. So I've prepared a little
• 19:12
  something for you guys. Are you ready for this?
• 19:14
  I am. It's very short.
• 19:16
  Empty spaces and old castles, spaceships, police boxes and
• 19:21
  toppled masters. Face the back blast and seal
• 19:24
  your fate for slavers and slaves.
• 19:27
  Meet at the Warriors Gate. That's it.
• 19:29
  That's all you've got to endure, all right.
• 19:32
  That's good. Make a commercial out of it.
• 19:35
  Put, give, make. Tom read that out.
• 19:38
  Hey, we. Got we got something, Tom.
• 19:40
  What was wrong with? Me.
• 19:42
  All right. You could be on the.
• 19:44
  I'd like the fee, thank you very much.
• 19:48
  No, we're reading Warriors Gate and Beyond.
• 19:51
  Let's let's take, you know, Warrior's Gate first, which is
• 19:56
  the the biggest part of this book.
• 19:59
  And the first question I'd like to ask you guys is how does this
• 20:04
  fare as ATV adaptation And because I've got a feeling.
• 20:10
  He's the least impressed of the three of us.
• 20:12
  We'll go straight over to Andrew first.
• 20:16
  So yeah, as an adaptation of the TV version, I think that this is
• 20:22
  quite unusual in that it gives you a little bit less than the
• 20:25
  TV version when it comes to kind of description and visuals.
• 20:32
  I think the TV version is quite unusual in that it's it is very
• 20:37
  visual. It's got a director who's got a
• 20:39
  clear idea of what they want to do with the piece and is doing
• 20:42
  very unusual things with the camera work and things like the
• 20:46
  the coin that stops in the air, the void itself and the the
• 20:52
  Farrell castle and the way that it's all black and white and
• 20:56
  people walk through it in colour.
• 20:57
  It's one of, it's a Doctor Who story that's rare and it's kind
• 21:00
  of, yeah, the the time and attention that have been spent
• 21:05
  on the visuals and the direction of the piece, which I think led
• 21:09
  to all sort of production difficulties with the actual
• 21:11
  programme and the director never came back.
• 21:13
  But it means that we have this, this really beautiful piece of
• 21:17
  television. I found that in the
• 21:20
  novelisation. It feels like a lot of that came
• 21:23
  from the director and maybe not necessarily from the script and
• 21:26
  from Stephen Gallagher. And the the description in this
• 21:31
  is quite scant. Like the void is just the void.
• 21:35
  Like we don't really get much description of the voids when
• 21:37
  they go through the mirrors. They're in a castle and that's
• 21:41
  pretty much as much description of it as you get.
• 21:43
  They're in a garden, There's some flowers.
• 21:46
  Yeah, it it doesn't have that kind of rich visual quality to
• 21:51
  it, which you'd think the story really lends itself to it.
• 21:55
  It feels like it's more the the novel is more invested in the
• 21:59
  kind of mechanics of the story than kind of painting beautiful
• 22:03
  pictures in your mind. And I'm sure we'll get into more
• 22:08
  detail with this as well. But it also there are
• 22:10
  differences in this, in this book, and I think the main
• 22:14
  difference for me was what it does with Romana's character.
• 22:17
  And in the book, weirdly, even though it's her final story and
• 22:23
  he does do stuff with it, being her final story, it kind of
• 22:26
  reduces her role quite significantly, gives a lot of
• 22:29
  the stuff that in the TV version is Romana's stuff to the doctor.
• 22:33
  And then kind of, I feel it quite it dilutes her departure
• 22:37
  quite a lot, and it's not as strong as it is in the TV
• 22:40
  version, which is weird. Do you know why that is?
• 22:44
  Why this book features Romana less?
• 22:46
  I would presume because it's based the.
• 22:49
  I don't know. This is my guess.
• 22:50
  It's probably because it was based on the graph on the draft
• 22:53
  scripts of the TV. That was before it was their
• 22:55
  final story, and they probably rewrote the scripts to give
• 22:59
  Romana more to do because it was her last story.
• 23:01
  I think bid me gave this a damn good beaten into shape to what
• 23:06
  he actually wanted. Yeah, he was working from his
• 23:09
  original script, Stephen Gallagher, which gave the doctor
• 23:12
  a a ton more to do than he had because the doctor really don't
• 23:15
  do too much. In the teeth he just saw wanders
• 23:17
  around the void, then he wanders around the gardens, and then
• 23:20
  they're told do nothing. So he does nothing and then they
• 23:22
  go. Yeah, whereas.
• 23:24
  Romana effectively gets to do all the the Doctor E bits,
• 23:27
  doesn't she? Which is Apartment and good
• 23:29
  because she's going Luke. All right, so there's things in
• 23:35
  this book I'd like more. And there's some things I like
• 23:40
  less. I felt like in 20-3 pages,
• 23:42
  Stephen Gallagher had been like, hey, here's what the Tharos can
• 23:47
  do. Oh, I've got it.
• 23:50
  It's it's kind of crystallized in my head.
• 23:52
  And he did that in 20-3 pages. It took me multiple watches to
• 23:56
  finally wrap, fully wrap my head around like, what the hell is
• 23:59
  going on in this? And then I had to, like, maybe
• 24:02
  read some reviews and listen to some podcast and be like someone
• 24:05
  help me out. Yeah, you know, you have to work
• 24:07
  for it a bit. When you watch Warriors, it's
• 24:09
  worth it. It's, it's a great story.
• 24:11
  But what I did appreciate if is like in just those 23 pages,
• 24:17
  which is a little bit of a prequel to the story, you get
• 24:22
  what their powers and what they can do are very crystal clear in
• 24:26
  at least in my mind, of what they can do.
• 24:28
  I'm like, oh, OK, so that's not going to be a problem for me.
• 24:31
  Reading for the rest of the story, I feel like I I'm, I've
• 24:34
  got to grasp on. At least I hope I do.
• 24:36
  None of you go. Please explain what that is
• 24:38
  because like I I did write it down but I just want to make
• 24:40
  sure I got it right so. You.
• 24:43
  Knew you were going to call my bluff?
• 24:45
  No, But so you got to the Farrells can read the time win,
• 24:52
  so they can read all the possibilities of a decision that
• 24:55
  they they're going to make. So that looks like they're that
• 24:58
  that Laszlo or Biroc is just standing there.
• 25:01
  What he's really doing is like, oh, so we're going to do this,
• 25:03
  all right? It's like someone, it's like
• 25:06
  watching someone play chess, right?
• 25:07
  And they've taken 40 minutes to do a bloody move.
• 25:10
  They're looking at all the possibilities and stuff.
• 25:11
  And then they choose a possibility they they like or
• 25:16
  that's beneficial or it help helps them out.
• 25:18
  And that's the path of time in which they pursue.
• 25:22
  But they can also travel on the different strands of the winds
• 25:25
  of time as well. So they can effectively see
• 25:29
  pretty much anything from time and space that they wish to in
• 25:31
  all possibilities as as well. But they're good at making what
• 25:37
  reality they want, the reality they have.
• 25:40
  Well, he sort of ditches the story, doesn't he?
• 25:42
  1/3 in, and then he pops up at the end.
• 25:44
  And he said, well, don't you worry, because I saw the future
• 25:47
  and I knew that going into the TARDIS was glad.
• 25:49
  You're going to free all the slaves.
• 25:50
  So. I didn't need to be around.
• 25:52
  I knew this was all going to happen.
• 25:54
  If only you told them that at the beginning, then that's just
• 25:57
  an hour wait, but never mind. It's also with this one thing I
• 26:04
  like more with what they do with Romana, even though there's a
• 26:07
  few things like I'm not a huge fan of, like, it's the Doctor
• 26:11
  Who plants the seed in Romana's brain and oh, maybe I should
• 26:15
  stay here and and help things out from here.
• 26:19
  Whereas I like it more in the TV show where it feels more like
• 26:22
  it's Ramana's choice. It's Ramana, you know, taking
• 26:26
  the action more than, hey, Ramana, you should do this, you
• 26:30
  know, You know, it'd be good for you.
• 26:32
  So I like that. I don't like that as much, but I
• 26:35
  do like the ending it. They don't make it out like
• 26:39
  canine can just rebuild a TARDIS.
• 26:41
  Instead, they're going to like help Romana learn how to maybe
• 26:47
  not as well as Darrell's, but control the time wins and train
• 26:52
  her and like that as she helps them free slaves a month.
• 26:55
  I like that. I like that more than maybe just
• 26:58
  building a new TARDIS and things like that and then becoming
• 27:01
  president and stuff. I kind of want time win Lady
• 27:04
  Romana. And spoiler, we do get a bit of
• 27:07
  that later on in. The book as.
• 27:08
  Well. Although, you know that bit,
• 27:11
  that bit in the end when she's saying I'll have the gateway and
• 27:13
  I'll, I'll use it just as spirit as people used to, I love the
• 27:16
  fact that there's an exchange here.
• 27:19
  The Doctor goes, oh, what you mean when they were the most
• 27:21
  vicious slavers in no universe. And Romana says that's my first
• 27:25
  job, making sure history doesn't repeat itself.
• 27:27
  She's actually got a a motive for going as well as that.
• 27:31
  These were vicious slavers at one point and she's going to
• 27:33
  keep an eye on them. I really like that because in
• 27:36
  the TV version it's almost like, well, see ya.
• 27:39
  You know, I've had enough. See.
• 27:42
  I've got a new mode of transport.
• 27:45
  Yeah. Also in the TV version, it's
• 27:47
  Romana is trapped in E space, whereas in this one it's
• 27:50
  completely different. It's you're at the gateway and
• 27:52
  the gateway. Gateway can go anywhere.
• 27:56
  So yeah, it's a less kind of closed down ending for her where
• 28:01
  there's like no possibility that they'll ever see each other
• 28:03
  again. It's this, yeah.
• 28:06
  It it opens up the entire universe to have rather than
• 28:09
  have been kind of like trapped in this small pocket universe.
• 28:13
  Speaking about like ruthless slavers, the start of this book
• 28:17
  also gives me a vibe I never really got from watching the
• 28:20
  story. And that was the Farrells are
• 28:22
  ancient Rome. They're this huge empire that
• 28:26
  built that empire on the backs of slaves.
• 28:30
  And then when that empire fell, a lot of those, well, it's
• 28:34
  Romans and stuff got rape, pillaged and enslaved
• 28:37
  themselves. So that's that's kind of like
• 28:40
  that fallen empire thing. Like I never really got that
• 28:43
  kind of vibe from watching ATV story.
• 28:45
  Maybe the lack of Roman iconography kind of maybe did
• 28:48
  that. But he's got something at the
• 28:50
  start called the Antoninus blockade.
• 28:53
  Antoninus Pious was one of the emperors of Rome and little
• 28:57
  things like that. And then those little Nuggets
• 28:59
  just stayed with my head the whole time reading it.
• 29:02
  I actually thought having I was on board with this straight away
• 29:06
  with that opening, which has nothing to do with the TV story
• 29:09
  at all, where the Antonine Killers are going after the
• 29:14
  slave traders. And it it explains why there's
• 29:16
  that massive hole in the side of the ship because they, you know,
• 29:19
  they opened fire on it and that's what sends it trailing
• 29:22
  off. And I was like, Oh yeah, we're
• 29:24
  in like big budget we're doing. Star Wars, baby.
• 29:26
  But yeah, the start of Warriors gate.
• 29:29
  But I. I really didn't like that
• 29:31
  opening. Why Don't worry.
• 29:34
  Oh it was just so boring sci-fi. It's just you know about 20
• 29:39
  pages of then he just pressed the propulsion button on his
• 29:44
  space cruiser and the mess it's oh it's just so it's boy sci-fi
• 29:48
  and I'm. Not, you know, it's I'm a big
• 29:50
  Star Trek fan, so I do like all this sort of spaceship opening
• 29:54
  fire and space and things like that.
• 29:56
  But I just. I like the reason as to why.
• 29:59
  The ship went down and why it had that massive hole in it?
• 30:02
  Because I don't think we ever get an explanation.
• 30:04
  Do we have TV version? I mean, it's a fabulous visual.
• 30:07
  They're climbing in and out of that jagged hole in the side of
• 30:10
  the spaceship, but. I got quite confused by the fact
• 30:13
  that the the Antonine alliance, is that what they were called,
• 30:17
  whatever they were called that they had Paws as well.
• 30:19
  I was like, what are they Farrells like?
• 30:22
  They're not Farrells, but it was just really confusing that
• 30:24
  you've got these two races of aliens who are both kind of
• 30:28
  bored. It's like, yeah, it just
• 30:30
  confused me. What did confuse me with bit?
• 30:33
  And clearly a lot of the comedy actually came from bit me, which
• 30:37
  I find astonishing. He's such a serious bloke.
• 30:41
  The only thing he's truly funny about is his own talent, because
• 30:44
  he's always he's saying about those documentaries.
• 30:47
  Honestly, did you see him at the end of that commentary or that
• 30:49
  documentary where he looked straight at the camera and went
• 30:51
  well done? Me, I don't.
• 30:53
  Believe it. Anyway, sorry, what was I
• 30:55
  saying? What was I talking about?
• 30:57
  Thank you, no. Because.
• 30:59
  Because he added that whole prologue, but took out the.
• 31:04
  Two servicemen, I mean, they're sort of mentioned, aren't they,
• 31:11
  the two of them, But they don't. They're awful, like all of the
• 31:16
  crew. They're all horrible, horrible
• 31:18
  people. I mean, I thought the idea
• 31:20
  though, right? That they're.
• 31:21
  Slavers, yeah, but I guess you get that little bit of light
• 31:24
  relief in the in the TV version, but.
• 31:27
  I always felt a bit weird in the TV version where I'm sort of
• 31:30
  laughing and having great fun with these horrible people that
• 31:32
  are enslaving an entire race. Yes, maybe this is the better
• 31:37
  approach, but maybe it's the less entertaining approach.
• 31:41
  Yeah, I think actually Rawvik, he's one of the biggest assholes
• 31:46
  in Doctor Who, isn't he? He's just such a bastard like in
• 31:49
  the TV version and in this, like, just no redeeming
• 31:53
  features. Not funny.
• 31:54
  Just which I think with the with a story, when you're dealing
• 31:58
  with like a even a metaphorical way of with slavery like, I
• 32:02
  think it makes it makes sense to have a the the kind of lead
• 32:06
  antagonist to be completely like you're very completely awful
• 32:12
  yeah. But in both the TV version and
• 32:15
  the book version, and he's like, you know, the absolute job's
• 32:18
  worth, isn't he? And he wants everything done to
• 32:20
  the letter and perfectly. And he's surrounded by these
• 32:23
  incompetent fucking idiots. And it's funny.
• 32:27
  I think it's funny in both versions because, like, the more
• 32:29
  he strives for these people to pay attention at one point, he's
• 32:33
  like, I'll just have your lunch. Like Jesus Christ.
• 32:36
  I think, I think this is one of the first Doctor Who stories
• 32:39
  where you can kind of see the influence of Alien.
• 32:41
  It's that thing about like you know they're just mercenaries
• 32:45
  and they just care about their their bonuses.
• 32:48
  And yeah, it's, it's it's definitely the first time we
• 32:52
  kind of see that, that sort of, yeah, Jobsworth crew just trying
• 32:56
  to get on with things in their Mankey old spaceship kind of
• 33:00
  vibe. That makes me laugh because I
• 33:02
  thought, Tom Baker isn't there that old story of like him
• 33:06
  watching Alien in the cinema? And they're going, So what do we
• 33:11
  do about this Alien? And then he just yells out.
• 33:13
  Why don't you bore them to death?
• 33:19
  Lala was like, oh God, did I really marry this man?
• 33:23
  Bless. I've got to say though, I
• 33:27
  really, really liked how it gave explanations that I felt the TV
• 33:33
  series didn't. So how it explained what the
• 33:35
  Farrells do. How it explained what the
• 33:37
  gateway was and it actually made sense of some of the video
• 33:41
  effects as well. So the fact that the Bureau.
• 33:43
  Can walk through. Several sort of iterations of
• 33:47
  timelines. So when he's walking through the
• 33:49
  void and he's like and there's lots of versions of him walking,
• 33:52
  I was like, OK, I get what they're doing now.
• 33:54
  I didn't get it at all. But I thought that's just a nice
• 33:56
  video effect. You know, actually he's given a
• 33:59
  bit of thought to that. But I mean, that always depends.
• 34:02
  Like, do you do you want a scientific rationale behind all
• 34:05
  this fabulous stuff, or do you want it just to be magic?
• 34:09
  I mean, I think, I think with this one, I do like that extra
• 34:15
  explanation to it because it it just makes this, it does make
• 34:18
  the story stronger when you kind of understand what's actually
• 34:20
  happening. Like I don't think the TV
• 34:24
  version, it doesn't feel like it's enigmatic necessarily
• 34:26
  deliberately. It does feel like there's maybe
• 34:29
  just like a little bit of exposition missing from the TV
• 34:32
  one because there's all that stuff with like Adric and the
• 34:34
  toyncossing and the iching, which is all to do with
• 34:38
  probabilities. But I.
• 34:40
  Definitely bid me, Andrew, I'm. Telling you.
• 34:44
  Well they explain all that in the in the in this in the book
• 34:48
  version. It makes much more sense to me
• 34:50
  here. And the stuff about
• 34:52
  probabilities and E space being smaller, so probably the scale
• 34:56
  of probability is different. I was like OK like with my GCSE
• 35:00
  level maths like this kind of makes sense to me now.
• 35:03
  Great. Wasn't it like the more mass
• 35:04
  there is, the more it contracts? Is that right?
• 35:07
  Something like that. It sounded.
• 35:10
  It sounded like it was. But basically, if the backlash
• 35:14
  explodes, that means the whole space will just contract.
• 35:17
  Because it's. That's what I got from it.
• 35:20
  Yes, and something to do with dwarf star alloy.
• 35:23
  Yeah, probably we get that as well.
• 35:26
  I think the dwarf star alloy. The only thing I understand
• 35:30
  about that in the context of Warriors gate I guess is it
• 35:36
  stops the ferals from travelling through the time winds.
• 35:40
  That's that's it. But then why is that whole ship
• 35:42
  made of it? And if the whole ship's made of
• 35:45
  it, how did the ferals even escape?
• 35:47
  Oh, wow. I mean, I think it's a story
• 35:51
  both versions where you're going to have questions at the end.
• 35:55
  Well, I think that means it's doing something interesting.
• 35:57
  Yeah, I liked Adric in the book. He has a really terrifying
• 36:02
  moment for me in this book and I can't remember if it was in ATV
• 36:07
  Show, but it's the moment where he's just flipping the coin and
• 36:10
  he doesn't look at it and because he's not there to give
• 36:14
  it the the visual cues or to just.
• 36:16
  Say it's there. It just doesn't come back.
• 36:20
  And now he's like, oh shit, now what do I do?
• 36:23
  And then he just realizes, oh wait, I'm a mathematician.
• 36:25
  I can just, like do random stuff in my head, all right this way
• 36:29
  and this way. But I liked him figuring that
• 36:32
  out for himself, so him using his mathematical brain was
• 36:36
  really cool. I don't hate Adric, everyone, so
• 36:38
  that's probably why I'm putting him over here a little bit.
• 36:41
  I've got to say though, divorce of the performances, because in
• 36:45
  Warriors Gate, right? Let's go to the characters for a
• 36:47
  second. In Warriors Gate, I can tell Tom
• 36:50
  and Lala are not having a good day because they're barely
• 36:53
  looking at each other at all. And those early childish scenes,
• 36:56
  there is no warmth there at all, and that they both resent
• 37:00
  Matthew Waterhouse being there, so no one's given him the time
• 37:03
  of day so. Even though the dialogue is
• 37:05
  quite witty and fun, there is a coldness to it I think.
• 37:10
  Whereas on the on the page, divorce from the performances, I
• 37:15
  was like, oh, I can see this sort of weird.
• 37:18
  Extraterrestrial family that we've got in the TARDIS now.
• 37:23
  Feel bad for Matthew? I've got my dream job.
• 37:25
  Shut up, little boy. Wow.
• 37:29
  That must have, must have been absolutely terrible, but I don't
• 37:33
  know, I was young when I saw him, so that's probably why I
• 37:37
  like him so much and. Imagine if you've got a job,
• 37:40
  right? You've got a job if you're a
• 37:41
  hero and he called you and see you next Tuesday.
• 37:44
  Oh, it would be heartbreaking, wouldn't he?
• 37:46
  My God, did he really do that? Yeah.
• 37:49
  Well, that's what he says in his Blue Box Boy book, anyway.
• 37:52
  Well, I like, I just, I like that like Goblers commentary
• 37:56
  where Janet just takes the opportunity to be like you're a
• 37:58
  bit of an asshole, aren't you, Tom?
• 38:00
  He doesn't deny it, though. That's what I love.
• 38:02
  He's like, whoa. He owns it.
• 38:04
  He does own it. But.
• 38:06
  I was worried about my next job or something, he says.
• 38:08
  Doesn't he? Although the funniest bit in
• 38:10
  that commentary is when somewhere in the towards the end
• 38:14
  of episode one he goes are we ever going to leave the TARDIS
• 38:18
  and bid me goes? Tom I don't think that's a good
• 38:21
  endorsement of my scripts and Tom.
• 38:23
  Baker just goes good. Oh my God, it's so contentious,
• 38:29
  That commentary. Anyway, so.
• 38:31
  How about the the characterization of the
• 38:34
  individual characters? So, Doctor Romana and Adric
• 38:38
  Andrew. Well, I can't really.
• 38:44
  I can only really speak to Romana.
• 38:45
  I can't really remember much about anything particularly
• 38:49
  interesting to say about the the Doctor or Adric.
• 38:51
  But I think with Romana, he takes this, this thread with
• 38:58
  her, that she's The Apprentice and she doesn't want to be The
• 39:01
  Apprentice anymore, which is interesting.
• 39:05
  But I kind of feel like in the TV version, it's that she's not
• 39:09
  The Apprentice and she's moved beyond that and this is her time
• 39:12
  to leave. Whereas this kind of, like,
• 39:14
  pushes her back a few steps into maybe, like, the vibe that they
• 39:18
  had with the first Romana. So yeah, it feels like it kind
• 39:22
  of boots out a lot of her character development from the
• 39:25
  TV show. And then you get with a really
• 39:28
  awkward moment where she's talking to Laszlo.
• 39:31
  It's like, I'm sorry, you're just a follower.
• 39:33
  I'm not going to listen to a single word you say.
• 39:36
  It's like, oh, OK And it's it's also the fact that it's it in
• 39:44
  the TV version, it's less noticeable that she's the only
• 39:47
  speaking female character because she's so strong in it.
• 39:50
  In this because she's less strong, it's like shut up woman,
• 39:53
  I'm going to talk to the man now.
• 39:56
  So yeah, it's just a bit of a, it's a bit of a unfortunate
• 40:01
  angle to take I think in in this book.
• 40:03
  I mean, I think in the TV version we have like a female
• 40:05
  Tharo who's in it for about 3 seconds.
• 40:07
  So there is. Another woman.
• 40:09
  But yeah, the I know representation, but yeah the
• 40:14
  this, yeah, not not so great in in the book version, but yeah, I
• 40:19
  can't really remember much that stood out about the Doctor and
• 40:22
  Adric for me. It was a couple of great lines
• 40:25
  about Ramada. There was Adric Arser at one
• 40:27
  point. So does that mean you're a Time
• 40:29
  Lord too? And she gives the answer by
• 40:31
  training? Perhaps, but by temperament, no.
• 40:34
  There's a few tasty bits like that.
• 40:37
  What do you think mate? I like, I see.
• 40:42
  I really like the doctrine is some of the he gets, he gets the
• 40:48
  most to do. So it's it's I was a little
• 40:50
  disappointed when he gets on to the slave ship and I'm like
• 40:55
  that's Romana. They're going to strap Romana
• 40:56
  that seat get out of there. That's like, I didn't like that
• 41:01
  so much, but I like the how the 4th Doctor's portrayed, all
• 41:05
  right. I like him having that little
• 41:07
  fight and then tinkering with the the, the Gundam before you
• 41:12
  know, all those idiots turn up and and then catch the last of
• 41:17
  it. But you don't really need to do
• 41:18
  that in a book. In a book you can just kind of
• 41:21
  give the explanations in in in the prose and you don't really
• 41:24
  need to have the doctor to sit down and listening to it.
• 41:26
  So have them and join like straight away and be the whole
• 41:29
  part of that that thing. That kind of made it flow a
• 41:31
  little easier for the book maybe, which is which is good.
• 41:35
  I bet I liked Adric in this one a little more this this
• 41:40
  characterization because of him just being more visibly working.
• 41:47
  How to do the I Ching and probability things out by
• 41:50
  himself? He's smarter, isn't he?
• 41:52
  He just thinks he's really. Clever.
• 41:54
  Yeah, I do. Like if we're going to do things
• 41:58
  a little differently I'll do like having him and Romana kind
• 42:01
  of like poking their heads through the hole in the ship
• 42:05
  things like that and then Adric kind of just reminding them hey
• 42:09
  there's there's a hole in that shit we can we can all get back
• 42:11
  in there no problem. So I think his characterization
• 42:15
  is a little stronger in in in this because it the book shows
• 42:20
  him to be smarter than maybe he appears maybe less arrogant too
• 42:25
  in that in that way that Matthew Waterhouse's Adric appears that
• 42:29
  often on the on the screen. So yeah, and I like the
• 42:34
  possibility for romanas, like where Romana is, I'm on the
• 42:40
  gateway. I can go anywhere, This
• 42:42
  universe, that universe, timelines, all of that.
• 42:44
  I can do it from this gateway. And with the Daryl's maybe a
• 42:47
  little more than I can build my own TARDIS, thanks to Canine.
• 42:50
  And so where she is at the end of the book?
• 42:54
  I might not like how she got there as much as the TV story,
• 42:58
  but I like where she is at the end of the book a little more
• 43:01
  than I do her at the end of the TV story, if that makes sense.
• 43:06
  I think he justifies the differences as well with the
• 43:09
  short stories I've come after. But.
• 43:11
  We'll go there. We'll go there.
• 43:12
  Do you know there was a lovely bit with Adric where when I read
• 43:17
  it I was like why has no one ever thought of this before in
• 43:20
  all these years of Doctor Who where he's like, yeah, he
• 43:23
  doesn't bother to have a timepiece because they keep
• 43:25
  going to different worlds but have completely different
• 43:28
  measurements of time. I think a little people like the
• 43:31
  they are usually watches and things like that on on Wells has
• 43:34
  no relevance whatsoever. I just he he thinks like an
• 43:38
  alien. I like that.
• 43:39
  I thought that I thought that was really clever.
• 43:41
  There's a great description of the Doctor, you know where Roman
• 43:45
  is explaining about Gallifrey and it goes the home of the
• 43:48
  Doctor himself. That belief wasn't easy because
• 43:50
  the Doctor seemed to be the very soul of non conformity, while
• 43:54
  the Time Lords as a race were, well, very worthy but dull.
• 44:00
  So I thought was I thought. I thought he he captured their
• 44:02
  characters in like a couple of sentences, like economically,
• 44:06
  really, really effectively. He knew they were.
• 44:10
  I do agree with you though, like.
• 44:11
  Taking out the bit where Romana goes outside the TARDIS and
• 44:15
  tries to bamboozle them all with all that tecna Babble, I mean,
• 44:18
  that's one of the most sublime moments of the season.
• 44:21
  But again, this was a draft script.
• 44:25
  This was his original script for the story, and I can understand
• 44:30
  why. When writing a Doctor Who script
• 44:32
  you would focus in on the Doctor and give the Doctor a lot to do.
• 44:36
  I understand why Bid be made the changes as well.
• 44:40
  But like, I yeah, when? I don't know.
• 44:43
  What's the right approach? Really, I don't know.
• 44:45
  I think I prefer Romana's role in the TV show, but I didn't
• 44:51
  object to the Doctor being the central figure of the Doctor Who
• 44:54
  books. Bit of a weird place to be.
• 44:58
  Bit of weird thing to complain about, isn't it?
• 45:00
  There's too much. Doctor Who in my Doctor Who
• 45:02
  novel. OK, how did you feel?
• 45:08
  So this is the book packed with ideas, yeah?
• 45:11
  How did you feel the ideas translated to the page compared
• 45:15
  to the TV show Luke? Amazing.
• 45:21
  Amazingly, but better. Like I was thinking to myself,
• 45:25
  All right, this is either going to be a book I'm going to have
• 45:29
  to read twice maybe thrice. And I read it after the.
• 45:34
  And I'm like because, you know, you watch the TV story and
• 45:37
  you're like, all right, this is going to be one of those Ghost
• 45:40
  Light kind of kinder ones where it's going to be a bit of a a a
• 45:45
  grower, not a show up. You know, it's going to.
• 45:48
  I beg your pardon? It is.
• 45:52
  You're always The Dirty One first on the Conduit Podcast.
• 45:55
  You heard this podcast. Jesus Christ.
• 45:58
  So I thought I'd beat you to the post this time, but instead I
• 46:02
  found it super easy to understand.
• 46:06
  Like, as I said, 23 pages of that was Powers.
• 46:09
  Oh, that's nice. It's going to be easier for me
• 46:12
  to the rest of the story now. And they're actually going to
• 46:16
  help me because I'm going to have this in my brain every time
• 46:19
  I read, oh read every time I watch Warriors Gate.
• 46:23
  Just some of the explanations somehow the time travels, travel
• 46:27
  works, the kind of like this slave culture and all this kind
• 46:30
  of thing that's going on. So for a script and ATV show,
• 46:36
  that ATV episode that might be like super confusing or just
• 46:40
  make you work for it a little more.
• 46:42
  The book isn't like that. It's like it's nice easy pros it
• 46:49
  it lays out it's big concepts in a really nice, easy readable way
• 46:56
  that a dummy like me understand. I don't like, I I have no maths
• 47:00
  skills, you know. So if he could do, if he could
• 47:06
  make the I Ching probability thing just at least for me get
• 47:10
  the gist of it. Even if I don't understand like
• 47:13
  the nitty gritty of all that stuff.
• 47:16
  He's done his, he's done his job and thank you for that do.
• 47:21
  You remember in the TV show where they do that sort of weird
• 47:25
  electronic effect, the sort of shimmer around the Farrells.
• 47:28
  I love the explanation of that In this the line goes, was he
• 47:32
  right now? He needed total concentration on
• 47:34
  the present, but the shimmering was a good sign.
• 47:37
  It meant his achievable futures were multiplying as a
• 47:40
  consequences of his actions. I was like, God, that's a
• 47:43
  brilliant explanation because I had no clue why they were
• 47:46
  glowing in the TV show. And they stay on their futures
• 47:49
  again. Yeah.
• 47:50
  And it's also him, Laszlo, or it was Laszlo.
• 47:54
  I think in that that instance, maybe that he wasn't just
• 47:59
  shimmering because he could feel different futures, but he could
• 48:03
  actually feel different futures because he was a slave if he
• 48:07
  couldn't see any futures. It wasn't just a dwarf star or
• 48:09
  anything like that. It was I'm trapped.
• 48:11
  I'm a slave. There's no hope.
• 48:12
  There's no future. So I don't even see anything
• 48:15
  ahead. This is it for me.
• 48:17
  So that that kind of opened things up for me as well.
• 48:22
  Like that kind of explanation that all right, with their
• 48:26
  freedom comes possibilities. And the possibilities are
• 48:29
  endless. In a way, yeah.
• 48:32
  Wasn't there a sequence where, you know, when they're in the
• 48:36
  the castle or it's, you know, the the grounds in the gardens
• 48:40
  and it's all a ruin, but they can hear running water and like
• 48:44
  hear the the sort of the forest around them and all of that.
• 48:47
  So the idea is, is they're actually this like overlapping
• 48:50
  timelines in that place. I thought that was quite clever
• 48:54
  as well. Oh, silence.
• 48:58
  OK did. No one else get that then.
• 49:01
  I swear there's a there's a bit a lot of where the Doctor says
• 49:03
  he's. And they hear the music from the
• 49:05
  hall and. Yes.
• 49:07
  So you're and but like the the TV show does do that because we
• 49:10
  go from the yeah, that gorgeous, luxurious banquet.
• 49:15
  So it all covered in cobwebs. So the idea is it's sort of
• 49:18
  layered, aren't they? All these timelines and all
• 49:20
  these different time periods. I mean, how did you get your
• 49:23
  head around all this? It's going to take Romana a long
• 49:26
  time to learn this. Anyway, sorry Andrew, what did
• 49:28
  you think about the translation of the ideas?
• 49:30
  Yeah, I think the the book lays the ideas out in a much more
• 49:36
  comprehensible way than the TV show.
• 49:40
  And yeah, I think a really a really good example of this is
• 49:45
  there's a bit of dialogue between the Doctor, Romana.
• 49:49
  I think Laszlo's there as well, where they're talking about the
• 49:51
  gateway and one of them just goes, so the gateway's the CVE
• 49:55
  and then someone's like, yeah, the gateway is the CVE.
• 49:57
  And in the TV show it's all this.
• 50:00
  There are three gateways and the gateways are all one.
• 50:04
  Whereas this is like no the CVE the thing that we're looking for
• 50:07
  the thing that we've been looking for since since Full
• 50:09
  circle that's been really important to the but that's what
• 50:11
  this is and that's how we're going to get out.
• 50:13
  It's like OK yes thank you thank you for the for the expert like
• 50:19
  I'm not. I'm not I think maybe there are
• 50:21
  too many ideas in this story for it to entirely work on TV and
• 50:26
  express everything because because in the novel you can do
• 50:29
  so much more with the expedition with the exposition and with the
• 50:32
  pros. I'm not sure that there would
• 50:34
  have been a way to convey all of that stuff about probability and
• 50:38
  the ways that the the Farrell's kind of perceived time and
• 50:42
  effect time. I don't know how they could have
• 50:45
  really done that without, just like pages and pages of dialogue
• 50:48
  of the characters explaining it to each other.
• 50:51
  So yeah, maybe it's a story which works better on the page.
• 50:56
  Are we saying that that on the page is a good science fiction
• 51:01
  novel, but on the screen because of the visuals and because just
• 51:04
  the the experience of watching it, it's a good fantasy
• 51:08
  television show? Yeah, yeah, I think so, Yeah.
• 51:12
  And I think because the TV show is is so influenced by like sort
• 51:18
  of Jean Cocteau films and things like that.
• 51:22
  Like the Beauty and the Beast film that he made and Orpheus
• 51:25
  where you've got people going through mirrors and things and
• 51:27
  you just don't get any of that in the book.
• 51:30
  Which is a real shame. Like, it just seems like because
• 51:33
  that probably wasn't Gallagher's reference point, he hasn't
• 51:36
  really reflected that in the novel, which is maybe, I mean,
• 51:41
  maybe that's part of the why John Nathan Turner didn't like
• 51:45
  what he'd done with the novel and then they got got changed
• 51:48
  into the version that we haven't read.
• 51:52
  I mean, it's weird though, isn't it?
• 51:53
  Because if this was the draft script, then the explanations
• 51:57
  are there. What if big we do go.
• 51:59
  There's far too many explanations here.
• 52:01
  And took his red pen to it and said we're.
• 52:02
  Going to make it. I think because of the
• 52:05
  production disaster around this, you know, the director
• 52:08
  effectively being fired and then being brought back in, Graham
• 52:11
  Harper taking some of it on, JNT taking some of it on, it's like
• 52:16
  let's just get this made as creatively as we can with the
• 52:19
  script that we've got. We don't like any, but any
• 52:21
  explanations, we'll throw them out.
• 52:23
  I think there's there's a sort of cobbled togetherness of the
• 52:26
  behind the scenes, which really just doesn't translate to the
• 52:29
  screen. It's.
• 52:30
  Amazing, isn't it? You you hear like just I guess
• 52:36
  put on any documentary for season like 15 don't have any
• 52:40
  money. We're we're out.
• 52:42
  That's why Underworld is like so symbolic or something like.
• 52:45
  That barely perceptible Luke. What are you talking?
• 52:47
  About in season. Oh, I I I love it.
• 52:51
  Like I'll watch anything with Louise Jameson.
• 52:53
  And so like, I'm I'm fine with trashy season 15, but the the
• 52:58
  budget's there and all that kind of stuff.
• 53:00
  They just got to get it made or they won't not even have the
• 53:03
  same amount of episodes, all that kind of stuff.
• 53:05
  Whereas yeah, I it wasn't until I kind of checked out all the
• 53:09
  Blu-ray extras on Warriors Gate, I was like oh, all this stuff's
• 53:13
  going on in the background and I watch this and I just see this
• 53:17
  wonderfully beautiful, magical but also hard sci-fi kind of
• 53:22
  story. It's weird.
• 53:23
  Like I'm Christopher bid me. I'm bringing science back to
• 53:26
  this. I've got to say, though, I do
• 53:28
  think there was one scene in the book that was a million times
• 53:32
  better than the TV version, and that was B Rock invading the
• 53:36
  TARDIS because on the. TV version, you just have the
• 53:39
  console go fuck fuck fuck and the door opens.
• 53:42
  A badly superimposed light goes over the Doctor's hands and then
• 53:46
  he saw walks in in slow motion. Whereas in that book he says
• 53:50
  things like that. Even regular forces that
• 53:53
  normally held the TARDIS in shape were starting to bend the
• 53:56
  time winds ran through canine like desert sands.
• 53:59
  They poured for his joints and seams, aging and altering as
• 54:02
  they went. And this is my favorite.
• 54:04
  But it was a void and they were being tipped towards it empty.
• 54:07
  It emptied out as a curious giant might shake strange
• 54:11
  objects from a bag. I was like, my God, it's almost
• 54:14
  like the TARDIS can't handle what's happening.
• 54:16
  It felt really like apocalyptic in the book.
• 54:21
  How do you think that that was? That worked quite well.
• 54:24
  It's weird. Definitely didn't have the
• 54:25
  budget for that. You mentioned Biroc as well.
• 54:29
  Well, there like he, he feels like he's one of the lead
• 54:33
  characters in the TV version, but in the book he's hardly in
• 54:36
  it. And then Laszlo kind of comes
• 54:38
  along and takes like Laszlo I don't think has any dialogue in
• 54:40
  the TV version. And then he's a much bigger
• 54:43
  character in the book and Biroc doesn't really do anything.
• 54:46
  I mean, I mean that's the whole point of Biroc's character that
• 54:48
  he doesn't do anything but and then in the in the sequel
• 54:51
  stories as well, I think in my head when when Romana was out
• 54:56
  hanging out with Farrells, she was like Bezi mates with Dirac,
• 54:59
  but you know, so. Laszlo, isn't it?
• 55:02
  So, Laszlo. Yeah.
• 55:03
  Who the hell is Laszlo? What?
• 55:10
  So do you find the TV version funny?
• 55:15
  I think the cat, the the carriers on the ship are there,
• 55:18
  you know that sort of close the doors.
• 55:21
  After I've gone through, you know.
• 55:22
  All that sort of stuff. It's supposed to be, really.
• 55:24
  And you know, the the relationship between Rovic and
• 55:26
  the Do you think, is this a funny book?
• 55:29
  Were there funny moments in this?
• 55:32
  Andrew's looking like I. Don't think they jump out at me.
• 55:37
  I think they were just in terms it's it's kind of weird, like
• 55:41
  both watching the TV story and reading this when you chuckle
• 55:44
  and then you realize the characters that are you that
• 55:46
  have made you chuckle and you're just like, oh definitely laughed
• 55:50
  at jokes being made by by ruthless slavers.
• 55:53
  But they're so boring to the point of these kind of office
• 55:58
  gags and things like that too. Like you even get silly shit
• 56:01
  like such and such is at the console.
• 56:04
  He doesn't even know what to do on that console.
• 56:08
  Like, OK, the the leaders trying to Let's go, let's go.
• 56:12
  Let's do this. And they're like we're just
• 56:14
  eating our sandwiches. Man.
• 56:15
  It's our lunch break. Get out of here.
• 56:17
  We're not doing this. But there's also my name's
• 56:22
  blanked on his name. He carries the mask detector.
• 56:25
  He's the big dummy is. It packet.
• 56:28
  I think I think you might be right.
• 56:30
  So he makes me laugh because he's sent to, well, take a look
• 56:35
  at the engines and all that and he's got a fucking clipboard.
• 56:38
  He's got to tick off everything and he gets to like the third
• 56:40
  one and he realised how hard this is going to be and it's
• 56:42
  like, yes, screw this tick, tick, tick.
• 56:44
  Now I'm out of here, I'm done. So there are funny little
• 56:47
  moments like this, but the And there's only one funny thing
• 56:52
  with Aldo and Waldo, as they referred to in this book.
• 56:55
  Such an omission, isn't it? And it's to do with the, I
• 56:59
  think, how they get rid of the garbage?
• 57:02
  Where's the garbage go? Where does it go when we get rid
• 57:05
  of it? No one wants to answer them and
• 57:08
  and they can't be bothered to look for the answers themselves.
• 57:11
  So that's that. That kind of makes me laugh.
• 57:14
  That is the biggest glaring omission for me though.
• 57:18
  And in terms of the slave ship guys, I really liked Aldo and
• 57:25
  Royce. I don't.
• 57:27
  You know what I mean. They're slavers, but I like the
• 57:29
  characters. We all know that pair, right?
• 57:31
  We all know that pair at work that sit around doing nothing
• 57:34
  but comment on everything. Absolutely.
• 57:38
  Wait, that could be me, actually.
• 57:39
  Hang on. No, no.
• 57:41
  And it's and it kind of makes me feel like they're even worse.
• 57:45
  Like you don't expect evil people to be so mundanely
• 57:50
  boring, if that makes sense. And they're kind of like that in
• 57:56
  the in the in the book not in a bad way but just just how normal
• 58:03
  ish they are and how reasonable they they some of them come
• 58:08
  across but but when they have to turn it on they go from their
• 58:14
  normal work office personalities to complete all right put
• 58:18
  strapping down they're only throws.
• 58:20
  Don't worry about it. And all this kind of stuff, you
• 58:22
  just see that casualness of that side, which I find really
• 58:26
  disturbing. I thought that was really well
• 58:28
  done in the book. I mean, some of the some of the
• 58:30
  best jokes from the TV show aren't here again, because they
• 58:35
  hadn't been invented from the script that he was working from.
• 58:38
  The bit where the fella goes, it's a hole so big you could
• 58:41
  walk through it. In fact, I just did.
• 58:45
  Or when the Doctor goes, what is it?
• 58:47
  Oh, we'll all be in terrible trouble when the Pickles run out
• 58:50
  and lies. Like, but there was a couple.
• 58:52
  Of lines in this that did make me laugh out loud.
• 58:53
  There was there's a great bit for Raw Rawvic.
• 58:57
  I don't know why this tickled me so much.
• 58:58
  It's not really very funny, but he just goes to the Doctor.
• 59:01
  Of all everyone I've met, you're my least favorite, which I may I
• 59:05
  may use some point in life, and the Doctor does come out at one
• 59:09
  point where Robic's just blasting away and go.
• 59:12
  This could be a listed building you know also.
• 59:14
  Well, I thought that was some moments.
• 59:17
  It wasn't as funny as as the original as the TV one.
• 59:21
  My my favorite funny moment in the TV version, which Luke
• 59:25
  reminded me of when you said the web clipboard is one of the
• 59:29
  campus moments of Doctor Who where Romana is very gently
• 59:35
  bashing Robic with with the little day glow orange
• 59:39
  clipboard. It's amazing.
• 59:43
  Unfortunately that doesn't doesn't make it to the next.
• 59:47
  I wonder why? OK, I've got a big question for
• 59:50
  you guys. Because this book is unique in
• 59:54
  one respect and the original live Decker version was as well.
• 59:57
  There are no chapters in this book hindrance or help.
• 1:00:04
  I listened to the audiobook, so I just paused it when I wanted
• 1:00:08
  to notice that there were no chapters.
• 1:00:11
  OK, whoa, Andrew, let me tell you.
• 1:00:14
  There were no chapters in this book.
• 1:00:15
  It's just one continuous story. What did you think, Luke?
• 1:00:20
  I usually, I usually hate long, long chapters, but I kind of
• 1:00:26
  prepared myself. I kind of knew this flipping
• 1:00:28
  through and it's like, oh, it's one of those, Is it OK?
• 1:00:32
  And then the praise is just my eyes just glided across the
• 1:00:36
  pages really nicely. So we ended up not being a a
• 1:00:40
  problem at all. Just getting so, like, you know,
• 1:00:43
  when you get to that point, be like I should go to bed.
• 1:00:45
  And like, I was sort of waiting for a cliffhanging moment.
• 1:00:48
  Terrace Sticks always did it brilliantly.
• 1:00:49
  Every 15 pages he'd give you a cliffhanger so you could go to
• 1:00:52
  bed on. And when he didn't come, I was
• 1:00:55
  like, OK, I'll just keep. So I was staying awake quite
• 1:00:58
  late reading this, waiting for the right moment to stop.
• 1:01:01
  It's an unusual approach though, and especially for a book.
• 1:01:04
  That was for kids originally. I think kids, you know, like to
• 1:01:08
  have things chopped up. I know, my mate.
• 1:01:11
  Sigh. Hart used to was very perturbed
• 1:01:12
  when he read this as a kid. And you know his mum would say,
• 1:01:16
  well, you've got one chapter and then you can go to bed and he
• 1:01:19
  was in absolute turmoil trying to figure out when to bloody
• 1:01:22
  stop. Yeah, it does.
• 1:01:25
  It does feel a little bit like in the same way that season 18
• 1:01:28
  has this vibe like this was made for nerds.
• 1:01:31
  Like this is this isn't a kids book, like this is a nerdy 14
• 1:01:36
  year olds book. Like it doesn't have those
• 1:01:38
  punchy like hooks in it. And given we have got that, you
• 1:01:42
  know. * Wars or let's say Star Trek.
• 1:01:45
  That's, That's nerdier than Star Wars, right?
• 1:01:47
  We've got the star Star Trek beginning and all the
• 1:01:50
  technobabble and then all the, you know, rational explanations
• 1:01:53
  for everything that's going on. Maybe this is, you know, the
• 1:01:57
  Super Ultra Geek version of Warriors Gate?
• 1:02:00
  Yeah. I, I will mention like just one
• 1:02:04
  last thing that I thought was funny is there's a computer on
• 1:02:10
  the ship and sometimes it's asked to give damage reports,
• 1:02:13
  and some of them are quite, quite funny.
• 1:02:15
  Like the, like the Rec Room coffee dispenser is now
• 1:02:19
  inoperable. And then you've got a scene of
• 1:02:21
  them all walking through this area of the ship that's
• 1:02:23
  completely flooded with coffee because it's just gone
• 1:02:27
  everywhere and things like that. And this is something that
• 1:02:30
  everyone on the ship should be paying attention to, because the
• 1:02:34
  whole ship's falling apart and it's being held together with
• 1:02:37
  like hopes and prayers and duct tape at this point.
• 1:02:41
  But no it. Went a little bit Douglas Adams
• 1:02:46
  and those bits, didn't it? And the bit where there's like
• 1:02:49
  the history of the like the the makers of the end, is it the
• 1:02:54
  makers, the engine or the warp drive or something like that.
• 1:02:57
  And then they travelled into the future and then sold it back to
• 1:03:01
  themselves in the past. Or it was very hitchhikers go to
• 1:03:03
  the Galaxy, I thought. I did still find more of it
• 1:03:07
  funny though. There's a bit in the book which
• 1:03:09
  isn't in the TV version, where because he can't get through the
• 1:03:12
  mirror, he just orders the ball to just stop tearing down the
• 1:03:15
  flagstones because he figures he could go around it and yet the
• 1:03:19
  the mirror is. In fact, there was a beautiful
• 1:03:21
  visual when the whole of that place goes up and all that's
• 1:03:24
  left standing is is the length of the mirror.
• 1:03:27
  Sort of in AI. Don't know if he's in a circle,
• 1:03:29
  but it describes it doesn't as an unbroken line.
• 1:03:32
  Juffle was great. And there is an exchange where
• 1:03:34
  he goes when what is it? The back blast directly is in
• 1:03:37
  the path of the TARDIS. He goes, you know that little
• 1:03:39
  blue box thing? Yeah, it's in the way.
• 1:03:41
  Yeah, Let's see how far we can blow it.
• 1:03:43
  I mean, they are irredeemable, these people.
• 1:03:47
  Get away from my TARDIS. I do.
• 1:03:49
  I like those bastards, you know. I like the their total confusion
• 1:03:55
  the whole time of them being like how can this thing weigh
• 1:03:58
  more than it looks? And then they don't really
• 1:04:01
  investigate the reason why the Tatas weighs more than it looks
• 1:04:05
  like. They don't pay attention to the
• 1:04:06
  coffee dispenser breaking down or anything else.
• 1:04:09
  Well, I'm sure you guys have more notes, so I'm going to
• 1:04:12
  throw it out to you guys because we should probably get on to the
• 1:04:14
  short stories. You have read the short stories,
• 1:04:17
  right? Yes.
• 1:04:18
  Oh, thank goodness. Let's go across to Andrew first.
• 1:04:22
  Anything like you'd like to cover the that we haven't
• 1:04:25
  covered yet? Yeah, just in the same way that
• 1:04:29
  Romana gets a bit of short shrift in this book, so does
• 1:04:31
  canine. Like, he doesn't really that get
• 1:04:34
  that much of A send off either. Like he just sort of like season
• 1:04:39
  18 is a bit traumatic for me because I love Canine and it's
• 1:04:43
  like, I love canine is lovely and I hate the way that in
• 1:04:47
  season 18 they knock his head off.
• 1:04:49
  They blow him up in the sea. Traumatic, traumatic.
• 1:04:53
  And then for this book to be like his last adventure and you
• 1:04:57
  know if you were an A being like I'm going to buy Warriors Gate
• 1:05:01
  novelisation. Well, obviously you're not going
• 1:05:03
  to do that now with Warriors Gate and beyond.
• 1:05:04
  Like No 8 year old is going to be doing that.
• 1:05:06
  But you know the original version like.
• 1:05:09
  And then yeah, just canine just gets fried and then like doesn't
• 1:05:13
  really have much to say at the end, just sort of trundles off.
• 1:05:16
  It's a yeah, it's a sad swan song for K9 and I think Justice
• 1:05:21
  the K9. Well, you lose John Leeson as
• 1:05:23
  well, doing all that. A lot.
• 1:05:25
  A lot, you know. Yeah.
• 1:05:27
  Of the order of the day. And all that's all that but the
• 1:05:30
  fact that the K9. Is literally telling them what
• 1:05:33
  is going on throughout the entire story.
• 1:05:34
  But no one's listening to him because he's talking a lot of
• 1:05:37
  garbage. That's one of the funniest.
• 1:05:39
  Jokes in the TV one. Yeah, and you don't get that.
• 1:05:42
  And yeah, poor little guy. OK, nine, man, you must have had
• 1:05:46
  terrible trouble decapitation and blowing up in the sea and I.
• 1:05:51
  Know. Yeah.
• 1:05:54
  How could they do? You remember that interview with
• 1:05:56
  JNT where he leans across the table and goes, Oh yes, the
• 1:06:00
  dork. I wanted shot of that.
• 1:06:04
  What a bastard. And then you did Conan and
• 1:06:07
  Company anyway. Sorry.
• 1:06:08
  Over to you, Luke. I think we've covered all of it.
• 1:06:14
  I feel like the longer we talk about this book, the more I'm
• 1:06:16
  just going to pill out little Nuggets for us to talk to talk
• 1:06:19
  about have. You got any more Nuggets for?
• 1:06:21
  Us. I'm I'm not too sure.
• 1:06:24
  I do agree with Andrew about canine.
• 1:06:29
  So yeah, like, I didn't, my brain didn't put it together
• 1:06:33
  while reading the book. But hearing you go like, hey,
• 1:06:36
  it's canine's last story. He's been here for a while and
• 1:06:39
  in the book he's barely doing anything.
• 1:06:41
  So maybe wasn't it necessarily was it originally intended for
• 1:06:45
  them both to be written out at in Warriors gate?
• 1:06:48
  Were those both added in that story?
• 1:06:51
  Because K9? Yeah, definitely doesn't play as
• 1:06:54
  as big a role in this. He doesn't really help Adric
• 1:06:57
  that much either. So I like the little Adric K9
• 1:07:00
  scenes in the TV story and there is a little bit of that, but you
• 1:07:04
  largely don't get it. It's Adric Go and like flip by
• 1:07:08
  myself, like his two faced just walking around the void.
• 1:07:11
  So. Yeah, and there's more of the
• 1:07:16
  the comedy with canine in the TV story.
• 1:07:19
  There's a little bit of it in the book where he's following
• 1:07:22
  Pack it around and pack. It's just like, oh, piss off and
• 1:07:25
  things like that. But yeah, it's now that you
• 1:07:28
  mention it, the pirate guy should have come back with
• 1:07:31
  another 5 parrots. For him to kind of like shoot
• 1:07:33
  out of the air or something like that would have been nice.
• 1:07:37
  Yeah. I There's one thing in the book
• 1:07:42
  which made me punch the air with delight, and I wish it had been
• 1:07:46
  in the TV version. And if it was in that draft
• 1:07:48
  script, shame on bid me for taking it out.
• 1:07:51
  And that is that awesome moment in the climax of the Gundam
• 1:07:55
  robot walking alone to the abandoned gateway and coming
• 1:07:59
  across Rawvik. And you know what's coming is
• 1:08:03
  going to have his head locked. Off and I was just screaming
• 1:08:08
  with like I was like, that is awesome.
• 1:08:10
  That should have been on TV. But of course maybe decapitation
• 1:08:13
  was a bit strong for 5:40 five. I don't know.
• 1:08:17
  It's. A slaver though, so I'm sure a
• 1:08:19
  lot of parents. I mean, I would have allowed it.
• 1:08:22
  I've got to say. That for like for like all the.
• 1:08:24
  I did tear through this. I absolutely tore through this
• 1:08:27
  book and I was sort of nodding along with it more than I was
• 1:08:32
  going. You know, there was a few, a few
• 1:08:34
  moments where I was going, oh, why have they changed that?
• 1:08:36
  But why have they taken that bit out?
• 1:08:38
  Although you didn't even have that wonderful bit with the
• 1:08:41
  WhatsApp great satellite dish called, you know, when Tom
• 1:08:44
  Baker's behind it with that massive grin on his face.
• 1:08:46
  So. Don't move lads, it's on
• 1:08:49
  automatic. Oh, the big yeah.
• 1:08:54
  Yeah. It's some TV.
• 1:08:55
  It's some big sci-fi name, hasn't it?
• 1:08:57
  In the TV show is. It is it the MZ?
• 1:09:00
  Yes, I think so Might. Be right, Yeah.
• 1:09:02
  Yeah, took out that bit module and the bit of attrick going it.
• 1:09:06
  Oh, Matthew. What?
• 1:09:07
  I actually can't act for Sophie, can he?
• 1:09:08
  I don't know what all these leavers do, but it's pointing in
• 1:09:11
  your direction. Terrible.
• 1:09:15
  All right, well, let's let's summarise our thoughts on.
• 1:09:18
  Or escape them. I I mean, there's a million
• 1:09:20
  things we could have talked about here, but I think we cover
• 1:09:23
  the pertinent points, the ideas, the characters, the translation.
• 1:09:28
  Luke. Yes.
• 1:09:32
  We'll summarise your thoughts please.
• 1:09:35
  Yes, all right. Sorry.
• 1:09:36
  Like, did you ask me a question? Yes, you did.
• 1:09:40
  I really, I really like the book.
• 1:09:41
  It's very readable all even if it was different and does
• 1:09:47
  different things that I don't particularly like more than the
• 1:09:49
  TV story. Just it it will, it gave me
• 1:09:54
  something that I will carry through every subsequent rewatch
• 1:09:57
  of Warriors Gate and that is I think I know what the fuck's
• 1:10:01
  going on and I like, as you said, Joe, why was that guy
• 1:10:07
  shimmering? Oh, here's why.
• 1:10:09
  Why is Why do you see him do this when he walks?
• 1:10:12
  Oh, that's why. What's the deal with the
• 1:10:14
  Darrell's powers in the gateway? Maybe we.
• 1:10:17
  Should do ghost lights soon then, and we'll have the same
• 1:10:19
  thing happen with that one. Well, if if Warriors gate is
• 1:10:23
  like 20-3 pages or so of prologue, I think Ghost Light is
• 1:10:27
  like 100 maybe. Attractively it's.
• 1:10:32
  Not that bad. It's a good book, but yes, So
• 1:10:36
  what I do love and will probably take with me forward is just a
• 1:10:40
  better understanding of the TV product and just kind of wish
• 1:10:45
  that if there was a way to smush all the best parts of the book
• 1:10:49
  together with all the best parts of the TV story, probably got
• 1:10:53
  like the all time, greatest Warriors gate.
• 1:10:58
  But as it stands, it's a a really good book, but it's a
• 1:11:02
  really great Doctor Who story on TV.
• 1:11:06
  I thought you were going to say the all time greatest Doctor Who
• 1:11:08
  story ever bold. Claim.
• 1:11:12
  But you didn't say that. Far it's not far from there, but
• 1:11:15
  I don't know top 20 ish maybe it's pretty good.
• 1:11:18
  Oh, that's awesome, Andrew. Yeah, I think I've probably been
• 1:11:22
  like overly down on the podcast. It's OK.
• 1:11:26
  It's, it's. It's so mean.
• 1:11:32
  Yeah, I think, I think I pretty much agree with with what Leake
• 1:11:36
  said. Like it's if you could fuse this
• 1:11:38
  with the TV series and take kind of kind of the the best of both,
• 1:11:42
  it would be great. And it does.
• 1:11:44
  It definitely adds a layer of understanding to the story,
• 1:11:49
  which I didn't get from the TV show.
• 1:11:51
  It's so nice that, you know, after probably like 25 years ago
• 1:11:56
  since I saw the TV series, I finally understand what the fuck
• 1:11:59
  is going on, which is great. But yeah, for the reasons, for
• 1:12:05
  the other reasons I said mainly the Romana stuff like it just
• 1:12:08
  sort of, it didn't entirely land for me, it didn't do everything
• 1:12:12
  that I wanted to do and the stuff that I was expecting of
• 1:12:16
  it, it didn't fulfil for me. So and I didn't, yeah, it just
• 1:12:20
  wasn't one of my favourite reads.
• 1:12:25
  Yeah, I'd say if you're like a massive Warriors Gate fan and
• 1:12:28
  you want to understand the kind of complexities of the stories,
• 1:12:31
  better, go for it. If you just want, like, a really
• 1:12:33
  good Doctor Who story to enjoy in the in the prose medium, I'd
• 1:12:40
  say this isn't it. Go.
• 1:12:42
  Watch go watch the TV version. Go watch the TV version, yeah,
• 1:12:45
  and maybe, maybe read like the Tardis wiki entry on the on the
• 1:12:49
  novelisation to to understand all the other things.
• 1:12:53
  I I think I fell down on really, really liking this.
• 1:12:58
  I I like, I said. I did fly through it.
• 1:13:01
  I thought the prose was a bit better than you, said Andrew.
• 1:13:04
  I thought he covered a lot of imagery and ideas, just really
• 1:13:09
  succinctly and in ways where he's sort of covering the idea
• 1:13:14
  but leaving you enough space to sort of go away with it in your
• 1:13:18
  head as well, which I really liked.
• 1:13:20
  So I was like, oh man, that's enticing.
• 1:13:22
  The gateway, doing all those amazing things.
• 1:13:23
  That's amazing. The Pharaohs being able to see
• 1:13:27
  multiple futures. My God, the storytelling
• 1:13:29
  possibilities of that are are endless.
• 1:13:33
  And yeah, there were things I didn't like about the
• 1:13:38
  translation and there were things I loved about the
• 1:13:41
  translation and I think I'm probably about 7030 in the
• 1:13:45
  positive, so so this, this, this did work for me.
• 1:13:49
  What I will say is I feel as a package with the short stories
• 1:13:53
  that we're about to talk about it is a it's a very rewarding
• 1:13:59
  book overall I think with with what it does next.
• 1:14:03
  But yeah, I I liked it a lot actually.
• 1:14:05
  I know it's good. It's good.
• 1:14:07
  We've got three different opinions here.
• 1:14:09
  Can't be, can't be a loving every week, mind you.
• 1:14:12
  This is about as as a book. This is about as far away from
• 1:14:16
  your favorite. So far around you as we've got
• 1:14:18
  Scarlet Empress, which is that's all obscurity, not playing by
• 1:14:22
  the rules. You know, beautiful imagery.
• 1:14:24
  This is just knuckling everything down to an to an.
• 1:14:27
  Explanation, you know. Paul Mars probably read this and
• 1:14:30
  went What is this TV series Was way better.
• 1:14:34
  I like my Doctor Who in lots of flavours.
• 1:14:36
  It's just this. This wasn't the one.
• 1:14:39
  Wow, we're going to explore some more of those.
• 1:14:42
  But first of all, what about the oh God, what's it called?
• 1:14:46
  The Kyros Ring? Now what I'm going to ask you 2
• 1:14:49
  gentlemen to do is each of you if you just hold up the book for
• 1:14:53
  a second and Luke if you can read the the blurb of the Kairos
• 1:14:58
  ring and then when we get to it Andrew, if you can do the Little
• 1:15:01
  Book of Fate. OK.
• 1:15:03
  So, Luke. The Kairos The Kairos ring now
• 1:15:08
  allies of the enslaved across all creation.
• 1:15:12
  Romana and Farrell Laszlo ride the time winds in search of the
• 1:15:15
  sinister Slough. Aliens try and pronounce it
• 1:15:22
  everyone, just like aliens who retool the dead as deadly
• 1:15:26
  warriors. No, I forgot.
• 1:15:28
  I actually got it right. It's slags.
• 1:15:35
  So here we've got a short story which somehow manages to go from
• 1:15:43
  a battlefield to a ruined castle to a department store.
• 1:15:48
  To no hang on. Am I doing the wrong 10?
• 1:15:50
  I'm doing the right one to. Ancient Athens in about 30
• 1:15:54
  pages. So how did you find it, Andrew?
• 1:16:00
  Well, this wasn't new to me because I actually, I'd listened
• 1:16:05
  to this when it came out on audio the because it was the
• 1:16:08
  first in the series of the Beyond the Doctor audio series
• 1:16:13
  that came out and I love Romana as a character.
• 1:16:16
  I love Warrior's Gate, the TV version.
• 1:16:19
  So yeah, I kind of immediately picked that one up and yeah,
• 1:16:25
  it's it's OK for me. I think maybe I'm a little bit
• 1:16:29
  skewed with it because because it came out as that part part of
• 1:16:32
  the Beyond the Doctor series, I expected it to be a little bit
• 1:16:36
  more Romana centric than it is. I think because it all comes
• 1:16:41
  from the perspective of the Civil War soldier whose name I
• 1:16:45
  can't remember right now, Joshua, Joshua.
• 1:16:49
  It's very much his story and it kind of feels like it really
• 1:16:53
  feels like a like ATV pilot or something.
• 1:16:57
  Like it's trying to be the first in a new series of adventures.
• 1:17:01
  And I think and with a lot of kind of first episodes of
• 1:17:04
  things, it's like, Oh yeah, OK this is OK, I I want to see
• 1:17:06
  where this is going. But in itself it's it's quite
• 1:17:09
  lightweight as a story and it kind of ends on a bit of a silly
• 1:17:13
  twist. But yeah, it it does look it it
• 1:17:17
  it's kind of it's it's it's a bit lightweight like it's yeah,
• 1:17:21
  it's a bit of fun fluff, but does in sets an interesting path
• 1:17:27
  for Romana I think, which we will talk about more I guess.
• 1:17:31
  How about you Leg? Pretty interesting.
• 1:17:34
  It's definitely picking up the threads of slavery that
• 1:17:39
  Warrior's Gate does because like Joshua is from the American
• 1:17:42
  Civil War I think and that's you know war about slavery and
• 1:17:48
  stuff. Her expert.
• 1:17:49
  I think that's it. And and it's just her and the
• 1:17:54
  feral's they aren't just content of freeing feral slaves.
• 1:17:57
  This is a cause and an I deal that they're they're doing for
• 1:18:02
  all across time and space. You have to imagine, I like
• 1:18:06
  concepts and ideas in this little little dirty page story.
• 1:18:09
  Like, all right, we can't take canine everywhere with us
• 1:18:13
  because he's metal and stuff. How do we work around this?
• 1:18:16
  What do we do with canine? Let's give him the ability to
• 1:18:21
  like an AI, just to kind of put himself in a car or put his
• 1:18:25
  brain in something else or something like that.
• 1:18:27
  Mike. Yeah, why not?
• 1:18:29
  Didn't you love it when the taxi just went a firmly mysterious
• 1:18:32
  and started driving? Yeah, so K9 as kit, there you
• 1:18:38
  go. And also the idea of they're
• 1:18:41
  they're looking for just ways to defeat this, this zombie force
• 1:18:48
  they're going up against. And they've got people
• 1:18:51
  throughout history to kind of, hey, we need someone to read
• 1:18:54
  this stuff. Well, let's get them from the
• 1:18:55
  distant past to come here and read it.
• 1:18:57
  And they've all got these kind of tragic kind of stories like
• 1:19:00
  they've been slaves in the past or they've fought against
• 1:19:03
  slavery. They've all got that common
• 1:19:05
  bond. And it doesn't matter where they
• 1:19:07
  they're from and or who they are, That common bond of them
• 1:19:11
  all either fighting slavery or being ex slaves themselves kind
• 1:19:15
  of brings them all together. I know that's the thing I got
• 1:19:19
  from it, but the only thing I would have changed is I would
• 1:19:22
  have done what Andrew said and given me more fucking Romano.
• 1:19:26
  Apart from that, I've quite enjoyed it.
• 1:19:30
  Oh well, I'm the outlier. I fucking love this little short
• 1:19:34
  story. But let me explain, because two
• 1:19:37
  of the things I absolutely love is armies of the undead and.
• 1:19:41
  And secret installations in places where you don't think
• 1:19:44
  they're going to be. So the fact that this has got an
• 1:19:46
  army of the undead attacking the secret installation underneath
• 1:19:50
  the British Library. Oh man, I was in 7th heaven.
• 1:19:54
  Honestly, I actually felt as if. This could have been a novel.
• 1:19:57
  Like and and a lot of it expanded and a lot of the
• 1:19:59
  characters expanded and giving Romano a massive role as well.
• 1:20:04
  So yeah, I feel like we are getting a snapshot of what this
• 1:20:07
  story could be, but jeez Louise, 30 pages.
• 1:20:11
  I read this in about 10 minutes. I flew for it and I just.
• 1:20:15
  I loved. I loved how he managed to put in
• 1:20:18
  so many locations so quickly in this.
• 1:20:22
  He's not afraid to take a risk, is he?
• 1:20:25
  And sort of put weird things together like in the last one
• 1:20:28
  we're going to cover, you know, he, he, he puts in like a
• 1:20:32
  war-torn world and a freak show in the past.
• 1:20:35
  You know that sort of juxtaposition I really, really
• 1:20:37
  like. And the way they're sort of
• 1:20:39
  jumping from one to the other, showing Romana using the gateway
• 1:20:42
  and how adept she's getting at that.
• 1:20:44
  I really loved all of that, and I really like the ending.
• 1:20:47
  I'm sorry. It was a stupid twist, but then
• 1:20:50
  there are many a stupid twist. But the idea of the ghost sort
• 1:20:54
  of lingering in the library, I found it really poignant I
• 1:20:58
  thought it was. A.
• 1:20:59
  A. Nice way to this sort of shadow
• 1:21:02
  of a man in the British Library. You know you might just see him
• 1:21:05
  in the corner of your eye when you go and visit.
• 1:21:08
  No, I I really loved. This.
• 1:21:10
  Oh dear. I sound like a broken record.
• 1:21:12
  Aren't. I say Joshua literally became a
• 1:21:15
  shadow of my past. Let's hope I hated The Little
• 1:21:19
  Book of Fate just so I can show up.
• 1:21:22
  Well, Andrew, would you read out the the blur place?
• 1:21:25
  Let's get to it. OK, the Little Book of Fate.
• 1:21:28
  Searching for the source of a scream across time, the 8th
• 1:21:32
  Doctor investigates a most unusual carnival freak show in
• 1:21:36
  the north of England, where a figure from his past awaits him.
• 1:21:40
  It's Romana there. Might be a Daryl involved.
• 1:21:46
  I don't want to spoil this for you boys, but.
• 1:21:48
  She don't appear. Too much in this short story.
• 1:21:55
  Luke, how did you follow this one?
• 1:21:57
  I mean, it's the 8th Doctor. That's a good start for you.
• 1:21:59
  Yes, yes it is. In fact, my nerd brain was like,
• 1:22:04
  where is this set on the ADT Online?
• 1:22:07
  Apparently late or something. I don't know.
• 1:22:08
  I think he's wearing the submarine jacket or whatever it
• 1:22:12
  is. He's wearing the dark eyes
• 1:22:15
  outfit. I think it is.
• 1:22:16
  But I I like this. It's a cute little little story
• 1:22:20
  about a fun little reunion between the Doctor and Romana.
• 1:22:26
  Both these little short stories, they do two things.
• 1:22:29
  They give me not enough Romana, but they also give me a Romana.
• 1:22:34
  I wish I got more of. Like I like the idea of
• 1:22:36
  Gallifrey and Time wards and stuff.
• 1:22:39
  And then you watch Gallifrey stories and I'd rather see her
• 1:22:45
  travelling the Time winds and freeing slaves than being the
• 1:22:48
  president of of Gallifrey. And I like Lala in that role.
• 1:22:51
  She's great. There's there's nothing against
• 1:22:53
  any of that stuff. Oh.
• 1:22:54
  No, When she gets angry in those Gallifrey audios, honestly,
• 1:22:57
  she's the. Only woman that can turn me on
• 1:23:00
  she's. Amazing.
• 1:23:01
  She gets. She's so.
• 1:23:02
  Angry. Yes, I look.
• 1:23:04
  And especially when you've got like those stories, we've got
• 1:23:07
  Lala and Louise Jameson together, like, I'm not going to
• 1:23:09
  complain of it, Get out of here. But.
• 1:23:11
  This is a bit more fun though, right?
• 1:23:13
  Yeah, I do like the idea of her just being out there, being
• 1:23:17
  this, and in the Little Book of Fate, just being this, like,
• 1:23:19
  kind of really wise, capable woman.
• 1:23:23
  No. No insecurities, no doubts, no
• 1:23:27
  issues. Just man, I got this.
• 1:23:30
  But I'm out here. Right.
• 1:23:32
  This is a new incarnation of Ruhanna.
• 1:23:34
  Yes. How is she described?
• 1:23:36
  I can't even remember. I don't think it really does
• 1:23:38
  physically describe her and we just know that she is like a
• 1:23:41
  tarot card reader and that's kind of you maybe know that
• 1:23:45
  she's wearing a scarf or something.
• 1:23:47
  Well, I'm going to put you guys in the unfortunate position of
• 1:23:50
  having to cast our new Romana, Luke.
• 1:23:54
  Oh boy. All right.
• 1:23:56
  I'm casting a new Romana. I don't know why, but I I reckon
• 1:24:03
  Jodie Coleman could probably pull that off pretty well.
• 1:24:06
  Pretty good, Roman. She's she's versatile, like I
• 1:24:09
  believe her when she's being funny, when she's being
• 1:24:12
  psychotic. If you say killing Eve or yeah,
• 1:24:15
  when she's being like commanding and say something like The Last
• 1:24:18
  last Jewel or something like that, I think she'd be.
• 1:24:21
  I think she'd be great. Andrew I think that Rachel Vice
• 1:24:27
  would make an excellent Romana as kind of from The Mummy.
• 1:24:33
  Oh, yes. Yeah as that kind of like
• 1:24:37
  doctors sort of bossy older sister type role and and the
• 1:24:41
  Romana that we see in this this short story you know she's she's
• 1:24:44
  kind of she seems like she's older she's a bit you know she
• 1:24:47
  knows who she is and she's yeah they're they're both a bit older
• 1:24:50
  and they're both kind of on a level playing field which I
• 1:24:53
  think yeah someone like Rachel Vice would do really well.
• 1:24:56
  I'm going to go for a slightly perplexed Romana then, and cast
• 1:25:00
  Tams in Greek, but for this whole fortune, Taylor.
• 1:25:03
  She's dressed up a bit like Kate O'Mara and Mark of the Ronnie.
• 1:25:06
  You know, she's got a terrible. Wig on and.
• 1:25:07
  Lots of layers, but she's quite eccentric so I think she could
• 1:25:11
  do quite well with the part. She's got a big glass of wine
• 1:25:15
  next to her, I think, yeah. Andrea, how did you find There's
• 1:25:18
  a little vignette? Yeah, I mean it's there's not
• 1:25:21
  much to it. I mean, but I quite I liked it.
• 1:25:23
  It was nice to drop in on the 8th.
• 1:25:24
  Doctor Who I love, and Romana who I love, and I did.
• 1:25:29
  I liked the idea that Romana is so this is kind of Romana's Time
• 1:25:33
  War, I guess. So she, I guess you could kind
• 1:25:38
  of squint a little and be like, oh, maybe she like, went off to
• 1:25:41
  be the president of the Time Lords and now she's come back to
• 1:25:43
  hang out with the Pharaohs. But she's basically running a
• 1:25:47
  sort of refugee centre for exiles from the Time War, which
• 1:25:52
  feels like a really kind of lovely progression of her
• 1:25:56
  character, especially with the stuff that we've seen in
• 1:26:00
  Warriors Gate, particularly this version of Warriors Gate, which
• 1:26:02
  kind of puts that emphasis on freeing the enslaved more than
• 1:26:08
  the TV version. So yeah, I thought this was
• 1:26:10
  great. And yeah, the idea of this sort
• 1:26:12
  of time travelling circus that she's part of, which is, yeah, a
• 1:26:18
  really strong, interesting visual.
• 1:26:20
  Yeah, I think like, like you both are saying about the Kairos
• 1:26:23
  ring, this feels like it could be like the prologue of a novel.
• 1:26:27
  It would be great to hear this amazing story of the 8th Doctor
• 1:26:30
  and Romana saving people who've been displaced by the Time War
• 1:26:35
  and maybe the Daleks trying to infiltrate the circus.
• 1:26:38
  And you know, it's, I think both of these stories, actually,
• 1:26:41
  they're great. And then they they fire off your
• 1:26:43
  imagination and they kind of make you think about what's next
• 1:26:46
  for these characters and build those stories in your head.
• 1:26:49
  And even though they don't quite tie in with what we know about
• 1:26:53
  Romana from from Big Finish, etcetera, like you can kind of
• 1:26:59
  tie it all together and think about, oh, how, how does that
• 1:27:01
  fit together? Where are these characters now?
• 1:27:04
  So yeah, I think I think actually this I preferred this
• 1:27:07
  one to the Kairos ring. Like, even though it's super
• 1:27:10
  short, like it's just nice to drop in on these characters.
• 1:27:13
  The short story is leaving you thinking I want more.
• 1:27:17
  I think it's kind of doing a good job of it.
• 1:27:20
  Do you know, I figured that one? Stephen Gallagher doesn't care
• 1:27:23
  that this is contradicting. All of those big fear CDs that.
• 1:27:27
  Have come out and. He's like, I wrote her out on
• 1:27:30
  TVI. Just like.
• 1:27:32
  This is the official. Version.
• 1:27:33
  Now, I mean, that was the terrorist Dicks approach, right?
• 1:27:37
  He always used to say that, didn't he?
• 1:27:38
  I don't care. I'll make up my own continuity.
• 1:27:41
  I don't care about the past, you know.
• 1:27:43
  Not true fans, honestly. I think actually that is that is
• 1:27:46
  really interesting with what he does with her because on the TV
• 1:27:49
  version and the stuff that's followed, it's very clear Romana
• 1:27:52
  is trapped in E Space. She's never and they have to
• 1:27:55
  kind of figure out how to get her out of E Space.
• 1:27:57
  In these ones, he's just like she's not trapped, she.
• 1:28:00
  Do what she wants. And you know, I don't want to
• 1:28:02
  write something set in E Space. I want to do something in the
• 1:28:04
  British Museum where she's like with a with a civil war soldier.
• 1:28:08
  So you know, that's what I'm going to do, and she can do what
• 1:28:10
  she wants. Kate, where goes anywhere.
• 1:28:12
  There we are. What I loved about both of these
• 1:28:14
  short stories is it shows Romana just being brilliant, striding
• 1:28:19
  worlds and helping people in need.
• 1:28:21
  So taking everything, She's like, she won't be with the
• 1:28:24
  Doctor at the start. Did she, you know, she was
• 1:28:26
  hungry to get back to Gallifrey and back to her academic
• 1:28:29
  studies. And then come Warrior's Gate,
• 1:28:31
  she's, you know, like we said, the apprenticeships over.
• 1:28:34
  And then she just went on and, you know, frankly, you know, he
• 1:28:37
  blew up Gallifrey and she's helping refugees.
• 1:28:39
  So I'll say she's doing a better job ultimately.
• 1:28:44
  Although I did wonder at the end of this of this one because it
• 1:28:47
  does so contradict that we were going to flash to like a barrel
• 1:28:51
  going. I don't know if you make that
• 1:28:53
  choice, this is where you're going to end up you know.
• 1:28:55
  And it was a dream all along in a sort of crossroads style.
• 1:28:58
  But a last note I did like do you like the bit at the end
• 1:29:01
  though when when he pulled out the the playing card and I swear
• 1:29:06
  is is described as the man of fiery temper generally in the
• 1:29:10
  army. Sorry.
• 1:29:11
  In the army cunning and dangerous.
• 1:29:13
  So is that supposed to be the Doctor's future?
• 1:29:15
  Is that supposed to be the War Doctor I?
• 1:29:18
  Think, yeah, I think that's where it was leading.
• 1:29:21
  It's quite tasty, I think. Yeah, you can imagine this being
• 1:29:25
  one of those minisodes, like the 50th anniversary ones.
• 1:29:29
  It feels like Night of the Doctor desk.
• 1:29:33
  And I think you can sort of say, oh, as a whole.
• 1:29:36
  So let's sort of. That's afternoon of the doctor.
• 1:29:39
  Then we go. Very nice as as a package.
• 1:29:44
  I mean, I don't think you can say Gallagher's short on ideas,
• 1:29:48
  but this book is a packed full of ideas in those three stories
• 1:29:52
  and whether he translates them well or not, whether the short
• 1:29:56
  story should be longer, whether the Warriors Gate version should
• 1:30:00
  be the original, the TV version, sorry, this was the original
• 1:30:04
  version. The other original version or
• 1:30:07
  not is debatable as we have debated.
• 1:30:12
  He's a he's clearly a massive talent I would say and and as a
• 1:30:17
  package I just think if this had just been the Warriors gate book
• 1:30:22
  I would have been quite happy. But the the glimpses into what
• 1:30:26
  came next for Romana takes this to sort of maybe not top tier,
• 1:30:30
  but very good. But I will read this again
• 1:30:33
  without a shadow of a doubt, and I'm wondering if you guys will.
• 1:30:38
  Let's ask. Andrew, because he's been the
• 1:30:41
  the least impressed of the three of us.
• 1:30:44
  Well, this this was actually the second time because I I listened
• 1:30:48
  to Warriors because it came out as an audio book a couple of
• 1:30:52
  years ago, I think before it made its way into print.
• 1:30:55
  So yeah, I got the audio book that was kind of unimpressed
• 1:30:58
  with it then and the same with this one.
• 1:31:02
  So yeah, I don't think I'll be revisiting it, but if Stephen
• 1:31:07
  Gallagher decides he's going to write some more Romana stories,
• 1:31:10
  I would definitely listen to this.
• 1:31:12
  But please put her in them. But just put her in them a
• 1:31:16
  little bit more. You look.
• 1:31:20
  Yes, I will will probably revisit Warriors Gate.
• 1:31:24
  I I've realized as I've gotten older that ever, ever look up a
• 1:31:29
  Doctor Who writer and be like, fucking like that.
• 1:31:32
  What else they got? And you got?
• 1:31:34
  And he's got Warriors, Gates and Terminus and not that much else.
• 1:31:42
  And then you get Nightmare country, the lost story, but
• 1:31:46
  Davis and Taylor and he, which I think is absolutely wonderful
• 1:31:50
  and I wish they made that instead of Terminus.
• 1:31:52
  I think everybody does about that.
• 1:31:54
  I don't hate Terminus, but there is that.
• 1:31:56
  So yes, I like, I really like Stephen Gallagher and he's one
• 1:31:59
  of those writers. I wish we had maybe 10 to 15
• 1:32:02
  stories often rather than just two and two and a lost story.
• 1:32:07
  So yeah, great idea. Could always go and buy series
• 1:32:10
  one and two and three of the 90s TV series Bugs where he wrote
• 1:32:16
  King Love Bugs from. He wrote all the best episodes.
• 1:32:19
  He wrote the episode where Sean Danielle takes over the prison,
• 1:32:22
  he buys the whole prison from his prison cell and then he
• 1:32:26
  literally gets a big gun and shoots the governor.
• 1:32:28
  I mean, it's like the master of the Sea Devils, but even cooler.
• 1:32:32
  Oh man, isn't Bugs great, Andrew?
• 1:32:35
  Yeah, I haven't really revisited it as an adult.
• 1:32:37
  I I just kind of my favorite ones were the ones with like the
• 1:32:40
  evil AI that like took over Roz's mind and it had like this
• 1:32:44
  very early CGI like little face. Oh, that's the that's the
• 1:32:48
  Cyberax virus. Yeah.
• 1:32:52
  The people go, they get infected and they go, I'm sorry, but I've
• 1:32:56
  got something to do. And then they go kill
• 1:32:58
  themselves. Oh.
• 1:32:59
  That's. Great.
• 1:33:00
  Although do you notice how every villain in Bucks is sort of like
• 1:33:03
  upper class? Really Awfully posh.
• 1:33:06
  You know the woman takes over the power.
• 1:33:08
  Guy, she goes now. Now we have the power.
• 1:33:12
  This goes to show you cannot trust posh people.
• 1:33:14
  Well indeed. Well, I feel like you're boat
• 1:33:17
  boss repaired to me. Well.
• 1:33:20
  My, my posh bunk bed's behind me right there.
• 1:33:25
  Oh, I could love a bunk bed. Do you?
• 1:33:27
  Sleep on the top. Oh.
• 1:33:29
  No, this is just food. When Oh, sorry, these they're
• 1:33:32
  not like this is when the this is spare room, this is when the
• 1:33:35
  nephews come over and stuff like that.
• 1:33:36
  So yeah. I'm so sorry for suggestion you
• 1:33:38
  sleep on a bunk bed I. Have before let's.
• 1:33:51
  Let's move on from this. And move on to our recommends
• 1:33:57
  this time round. I'd always love this because I
• 1:33:59
  never know what's coming and I want to know what Andrew is
• 1:34:03
  going to recommend for us this week.
• 1:34:06
  OK, so it's not actually a book. Well, it's kind of a book.
• 1:34:11
  So I thought because we were talking about the Kairos Ring,
• 1:34:14
  which was the first of the Beyond the Doctor series, I
• 1:34:17
  would recommend the rest of the doc Beyond the Doctor series,
• 1:34:21
  which, no surprise to people, is written by Paul Mars, which is
• 1:34:25
  why I really like. It.
• 1:34:27
  Which is why it's a bit odd that the series kind of starts with
• 1:34:30
  the Romana one, and then the rest of the series is just
• 1:34:32
  written by him and kind of there's a.
• 1:34:35
  So it's there's one with Bessie oh.
• 1:34:37
  That's gorgeous. There's one with Ben and Polly,
• 1:34:41
  one with Ian and Barbara, and then it ends with Mrs. Wibsey
• 1:34:48
  from the Ness Cottage series of Talk.
• 1:34:52
  Two stories and I just really love this series and the way
• 1:34:58
  that it kind of picks up the characters after their departure
• 1:35:02
  from Doctor Who in in a similar way that the Companion
• 1:35:04
  Chronicles series did, but the Companion Chronicles it kind of
• 1:35:07
  like they were older companions looking back but telling a story
• 1:35:11
  while they were with the Doctor. So you can't sometimes got like
• 1:35:13
  these little hints of what happened next for them.
• 1:35:16
  But it was always looking backwards, whereas these stories
• 1:35:19
  are what happened next for all these characters, usually
• 1:35:23
  without the Doctor being heavily involved in any of the stories.
• 1:35:27
  And they're all just really lovely.
• 1:35:29
  And there's a there's a arc to them, so you can listen to all
• 1:35:34
  of them and it tells a complete story which connects in quite a
• 1:35:37
  satisfying way. Even the Kairos ring.
• 1:35:42
  No, the Kairos ring is separate to it, but the other the other
• 1:35:44
  ones all connect, which is why it's it's a bit of an odd
• 1:35:48
  series, but yeah, thoroughly recommend it's a 10 out of 10
• 1:35:53
  from me. Love that?
• 1:35:54
  Love that series. I've only heard the the best I I
• 1:35:58
  was all over Bessie come home because when I heard Stephanie
• 1:36:02
  Cole was reading that, it was just I had to have it on the day
• 1:36:06
  and she did not disappoint. I mean.
• 1:36:08
  It's so the Bessie one is so goofing.
• 1:36:11
  It's really great. It's like I yeah, I think I was
• 1:36:16
  listening to it all. I was out for a walk and I was
• 1:36:18
  like, am I crying over Betsy? Was it run on petrol or steam?
• 1:36:25
  Oh, no, sorry. That's Battlefield, Luke.
• 1:36:30
  He's got to do a follow up now with the What was it?
• 1:36:33
  Who won? The Planet of the Spiders Little
• 1:36:35
  buggy car the doctors got I'm. Going to make.
• 1:36:39
  A. I'm going to make a stab, you
• 1:36:41
  know, and say that for once, you're not going to recommend an
• 1:36:46
  Eighth Doctor book. No, I'm not.
• 1:36:48
  I'm actually going to go audio book because I jumped down a
• 1:36:53
  little rabbit hole of and I found things that didn't exist.
• 1:36:56
  I was and I and it's because of you guys.
• 1:36:59
  I was like is there a is there a terminus of this because I want
• 1:37:03
  to read more Steve Gallagher's stuff.
• 1:37:05
  It was. Steve Pacey in.
• 1:37:08
  It by why Steve Pacey. Good voice but odd choice.
• 1:37:12
  I haven't heard it yet, but that led me on rabbit hole.
• 1:37:15
  Like what else? What else is on here?
• 1:37:18
  Then I I I found the Beyond the Doctor stuff and I I asked you
• 1:37:23
  guys about and I'm like all right now it's on my radar.
• 1:37:26
  But what I did pick up and and read was a one hour and 15 inch
• 1:37:31
  long audio book called Escape the Daleks.
• 1:37:35
  It's got a it's by Steve Lyons, I know shock horror and it's a
• 1:37:41
  third Doctor and Joe story. It's read and well, all the
• 1:37:45
  characters are all done and performed by Katy Manning.
• 1:37:48
  And well, except for the Daleks, that's Nick Briggs.
• 1:37:51
  So he has to do audiobooks, Big Finish and the Buddy TV show.
• 1:37:55
  And he wrote a Dalek book like, come on man, let's someone else
• 1:37:58
  do Daleks. But anyway, I would have loved
• 1:38:00
  it if they let Katie Manning use the Dalek voice manager.
• 1:38:03
  Like they're just a little bit of fun.
• 1:38:04
  But the Can she? Need to use it.
• 1:38:07
  She's a woman of 1000 voices. Oh, she's so good in this.
• 1:38:11
  She does. And it doesn't matter what age
• 1:38:13
  the character is or anything like that.
• 1:38:15
  You kind of. You get, you get it.
• 1:38:17
  So Escape the Daleks, the Doctor, Joe and about three
• 1:38:20
  other characters are in a Dalek escape room.
• 1:38:25
  And over the course of this hour, the mystery and the kind
• 1:38:30
  of detention kind of unfolds from there.
• 1:38:33
  And it was just a nice, fun little story with a neat
• 1:38:36
  concept, because I like escape rooms and I just had a blast
• 1:38:40
  with it. Yeah, it was good.
• 1:38:42
  Awesome. Well, I've not even heard of it,
• 1:38:45
  so I will seek that out. On your recommendation.
• 1:38:47
  Where the hell will I find that an audible?
• 1:38:49
  Yeah. OK, I've got a subscription so
• 1:38:52
  I'll be fine. I would like to recommend what I
• 1:38:56
  think has one of the best Doctor Who covers of all time and that
• 1:39:01
  is The Year of Intelligent Tigers by Kate Alban which I'm
• 1:39:05
  currently holding up now. I mean, that's so gorgeous that
• 1:39:08
  Tigers I where Paul McGann reflected in it.
• 1:39:11
  It's just this gorgeous inside too I.
• 1:39:12
  Feel like we celebrate for a for a you know, complaining about
• 1:39:16
  there being no women in Warriors gate.
• 1:39:18
  We've actually talked a fair bit about the ladies today.
• 1:39:21
  Lloyd Rose, Jacqueline Rayner and now Kate Ormond, who is
• 1:39:26
  probably the number one female Doctor Who book writer.
• 1:39:30
  And this is it's either this or blue box which was her last, I
• 1:39:35
  think. I I think this is her second
• 1:39:37
  last. Why?
• 1:39:39
  It's a great read. It's another great Angie book
• 1:39:41
  actually, and it's the first time where she really goes up
• 1:39:46
  against the Doctor. They're on two sides of this
• 1:39:48
  conflict, aren't they? He's with the Tigers, she's with
• 1:39:51
  the people she can't understand at all because she doesn't think
• 1:39:54
  like an alien. He's got a completely different
• 1:39:56
  morality. The Doctor heads out into the
• 1:39:59
  wild with the Tigers in some unforgettable sequences that
• 1:40:02
  only Kate Ormond can write because she fancies Paul McGann
• 1:40:06
  to a ridiculous degree that the planet Hitch Ms. which is like a
• 1:40:11
  planet of music, is conjured up so evocatively in those early
• 1:40:16
  chapters. I always listen to the Amelie
• 1:40:18
  soundtrack when I read the opening chapters of this,
• 1:40:21
  because that's a gorgeous instrumental score and it just
• 1:40:25
  conjures up. I think it's really hard to
• 1:40:27
  write about music in a way that's advocative and she just
• 1:40:32
  does it here. You just get the impression
• 1:40:33
  there's music everywhere on this planet, coming from every angle
• 1:40:37
  and. The doctor is this frustrated
• 1:40:39
  violinist trying to get it right and he literally is having a
• 1:40:43
  fucking Paddy throws her. He breaks the violin, doesn't
• 1:40:46
  he? And storms out.
• 1:40:48
  She just writes the Doctor with so much passion and it's a sort
• 1:40:53
  of a thorny moral book as to who's in the right and who's in
• 1:40:57
  the wrong. And by the end of the book she's
• 1:40:59
  got the Doctor literally controlling the fucking
• 1:41:03
  elements. He's there on the hill and
• 1:41:05
  there's a thunderstorm and he's literally going to tear this
• 1:41:07
  fucking planet apart to make these tigers and humans actually
• 1:41:11
  talk to each other and sort out their differences.
• 1:41:14
  It's just an incredible read. I think.
• 1:41:17
  God fight me. No, I I remember.
• 1:41:20
  I remember loving it at the time.
• 1:41:23
  OK, great. Can't really remember about the
• 1:41:24
  plot. It's it's just on every level.
• 1:41:28
  I think it was brilliant characters, brilliant plot.
• 1:41:31
  That's. The one where the doctor has a
• 1:41:33
  boyfriend, right? Yeah, well, yes, it is strongly
• 1:41:36
  applied. The fellow that's teaching him
• 1:41:37
  the music, yeah, he's he's living in.
• 1:41:42
  I mean, it's not the gayest thing they do with the 8th
• 1:41:44
  Doctor. That's that dream sequence in in
• 1:41:46
  Half Life when he's rubbing bums with fits in the news.
• 1:41:50
  What's that all about? Mark Michaelowski?
• 1:41:54
  Will you please masturbate before you start?
• 1:42:00
  Repeating the book. There's a new Kate Ormond book
• 1:42:04
  put out My Big Finish. They've got an audio book range,
• 1:42:07
  it's a Trouton book and it's a Trouton story.
• 1:42:10
  It's read by the one who's playing the 2nd Doctor now is it
• 1:42:15
  Michael. Michael.
• 1:42:16
  I haven't, I haven't read it yet, but it's, it's, it's on my
• 1:42:22
  To Do List I guess. But yeah, I'd be interested in.
• 1:42:25
  The idea of those audio, those Big Finish audio books, but
• 1:42:28
  they're so expensive. And long. £20 like I love an
• 1:42:32
  audio, like a full length, like 6 hour whatever, but it's like I
• 1:42:36
  can get one on audio on audible for like 799.
• 1:42:38
  I'm not going to pay £20. I I did the Jonathan Morris one
• 1:42:44
  with Capaldi and Bill. That was awesome.
• 1:42:49
  That was such a great story. But then I tried the Lizzie
• 1:42:52
  Hopper one with the two Sarahs and quite the reverse.
• 1:42:58
  I did Simon Durable. The Cyberman 1.
• 1:43:02
  Yeah and I had a pretty good time reading it.
• 1:43:05
  I one thing I haven't seen revenge and assignment for ages.
• 1:43:09
  So I was just like how the fuck does Sarah know who these guys
• 1:43:11
  are? Like I I just because it's a
• 1:43:15
  season 11 story she meets assignment and I was like, wait,
• 1:43:19
  revenge. There must be a line in it that
• 1:43:21
  says she knows them before. I don't know but.
• 1:43:23
  I've been waiting for a sale for that series so I can come up,
• 1:43:27
  but they seem to be keeping it under wraps.
• 1:43:30
  Full price. My Co host from Strictly Rod
• 1:43:33
  begged me not to listen to that. Lindsay Hopley won and I went
• 1:43:37
  no, just to defy you. I'm going to listen to it now.
• 1:43:40
  He was right. Yeah, it it was one of those
• 1:43:43
  ones when it came up where it felt a little bit like they've
• 1:43:46
  used the the old tombola everything.
• 1:43:48
  Everything. Was in there Doctor.
• 1:43:52
  Oh no, you. Sarah's.
• 1:43:54
  Andrew, beyond what they advertise, I mean, there's fifty
• 1:43:57
  times what they advertise continuity wise.
• 1:44:00
  Oh, good grief. Anyway.
• 1:44:03
  Well look fellas, thank you very much for one for reading
• 1:44:07
  Warriors Gate, but two? Would somebody please let
• 1:44:10
  everybody know where we're heading next?
• 1:44:12
  We're going somewhere very sort of up to date and important.
• 1:44:17
  Oh, someone's holding it up. Got it, Andrew.
• 1:44:19
  To be honest, forget that we're we're a podcast.
• 1:44:21
  It's not visual. We are heading to 1920s Chicago
• 1:44:30
  via The Planet of Vampires from E Space, and we're doing Blood
• 1:44:36
  Harvest followed by Goth Opera. You know it's.
• 1:44:41
  Spectacular vampiric double bill.
• 1:44:43
  Now where's the big finish one coming out?
• 1:44:47
  Is that soon? Is it like June or July, I
• 1:44:50
  think? Oh, we'll have recorded these by
• 1:44:52
  then. Oh well, we'll be out early.
• 1:44:55
  It's nice pre promotion for them.
• 1:44:57
  I mean, it's a Terrance Sticks book followed.
• 1:45:00
  By A Paul Cornell. Book I think we're probably in
• 1:45:04
  safe hands. I think so too.
• 1:45:07
  Yeah. And it also feels like we've
• 1:45:08
  been really well planned and structured because Blood Harvest
• 1:45:12
  follows on directly from Warrior's Gate.
• 1:45:14
  That's like a little bit at the beginning with.
• 1:45:16
  Of course it does. And doesn't that explain how
• 1:45:19
  Romana becomes the President? I think so, yeah.
• 1:45:23
  So it's all, yeah, it's all like we've thought about this in
• 1:45:27
  great. Depth.
• 1:45:28
  The only thing I can remember about Blood Harvest is a truly
• 1:45:34
  terrible scene where two coppers are talking.
• 1:45:37
  And the Doctor just left in the TARDIS.
• 1:45:39
  And he goes, well, you know, where's he gone?
• 1:45:41
  Where's the prisoner? And he goes, well, he just sort
• 1:45:44
  of vanished, right, He goes. But I did hear a strange sort of
• 1:45:47
  a noise. And the other fellow goes.
• 1:45:48
  What do you mean a strange sort of like?
• 1:45:50
  He goes, well, sort of a wheezing noise.
• 1:45:52
  He went wheezing. What are you talking?
• 1:45:54
  About you, Egypt. Whoa.
• 1:45:55
  Sort of. And groaning.
• 1:45:57
  You heard a wheezing and a groaning noise, yeah.
• 1:46:01
  Oh, you know, get off with you. I was like, oh, Terrence.
• 1:46:05
  Stop. Why don't you ask somebody
• 1:46:07
  that's currently reading the eight doctors?
• 1:46:11
  It gets worse. Who chose that?
• 1:46:18
  Who chose that? What Blood Harvest 8 doctors.
• 1:46:21
  Oh, Michael Mills he was. He was very keen to read the
• 1:46:25
  Eight doctors. A lot.
• 1:46:28
  I've been having a bit of fun with it as well.
• 1:46:29
  So yes, expect to be cancelled after that episode goes out.
• 1:46:34
  But guys, as ever, thank you very much for your time.
• 1:46:40
  As ever. I'm.
• 1:46:41
  Going to ask you to tell people where you are online.
• 1:46:44
  We'll do it every time. Let's start with Andrew.
• 1:46:49
  You can find me on Twitter at Doctor Who cover story where I
• 1:46:55
  mainly just retweet pretty art that people have made inspired
• 1:46:59
  by Doctor Who and I think last time I mentioned the fact that
• 1:47:03
  I've been making a 1990 Starlik model and Blue Peter style.
• 1:47:12
  Again, this is an audio medium, so it doesn't doesn't translate.
• 1:47:17
  Don't worry, I'll save the video, so I'll put the clip out,
• 1:47:20
  OK. That is 'cause this little guy
• 1:47:22
  do you have? To build that from scratch.
• 1:47:23
  Literally from scratch. Yes.
• 1:47:26
  So yeah, lots of swearing involved.
• 1:47:31
  Very, very fiddly bits and like pink covered fingers and and
• 1:47:36
  glue, but yeah, I'm quite, quite pleased with that.
• 1:47:40
  I won't annoy you, but here's one I just bought.
• 1:47:44
  Ready made. But I mean, I feel like.
• 1:47:47
  Mine's a lot smaller than yours. Oh.
• 1:47:52
  No. Yours is so impressive.
• 1:47:54
  OK, let's let's move on to Luke quick garlic.
• 1:47:57
  Phil. Before we get in trouble.
• 1:47:59
  Hendrews was thicker as well, I know.
• 1:48:02
  The appendages were much more impressive, too.
• 1:48:06
  Just lots of weird, random. I've got ADHD, so you never
• 1:48:11
  really know what Doctor Who stories I'm going to tweet you
• 1:48:13
  about next to just at Grumpy Two EB.
• 1:48:16
  You see my mustachioed face there.
• 1:48:18
  I could be listening, watching or reading anything.
• 1:48:21
  And that's what I love about Doctor Who, because there's so
• 1:48:24
  much of it and it's so different than it.
• 1:48:28
  It really helps with the attention deficit stuff.
• 1:48:30
  I can just get lost in it. Well, before we out, just a very
• 1:48:34
  quick thank you to the two of you, because I literally had no
• 1:48:37
  clue when I came up with this idea to do the book club One
• 1:48:41
  that any bug was going to listen to these because these books are
• 1:48:43
  so old and they've proven to be massively popular.
• 1:48:46
  Our Scarlet Empress episode. Hugely popular, numbers wise.
• 1:48:51
  Good choice, Andrew. But but just.
• 1:48:53
  How you guys have just attacked us with so much enthusiasm and
• 1:48:57
  and enjoy it. Thank you very much.
• 1:48:59
  It's It's a continuing delight. Thank you for.
• 1:49:02
  Having us. Thank you.
• 1:49:04
  And so I'll just say until next time.
• 1:49:08
  OK. Bye.
• 1:49:11
  Bye. Everyone.
• 1:49:15
  That wasn't a really good ending.
• 1:49:16
  I'm going to put in the pause and the goodbyes as.
• 1:49:19
  Well.