Latest / The You Project / #1564 Pleased To Meet Me - Dr. Bill Sullivan

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#1564 Pleased To Meet Me - Dr. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of the show.
0:03
Speaker 1: I'm with my I'm going to say maybe my favorite
0:06
Speaker 1: scientist at the moment in the world, doctor Bill Sullivan.
0:11
Speaker 2: Do you know?
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Speaker 1: Firstly, Hi, Doc, how are you.
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Speaker 2: I'm doing great? Great, I'm doing great. Thanks for having
0:17
Speaker 2: me on. Just so flattered by the favorite scientists comment.
0:21
Speaker 2: I was a little discombinulated.
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Speaker 1: Well, I talked to a lot of scientists, and I
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Speaker 1: am a scientist and I work with I love that
0:32
Speaker 1: you are such And I'm not just saying this because
0:34
Speaker 1: we're together, like I love. I love if I'm being honest,
0:39
Speaker 1: I love how much I don't have to prepare because
0:41
Speaker 1: I know how good you are at this and I
0:44
Speaker 1: know what a good science communicator you are. And we
0:47
Speaker 1: spoke about that last time. We've spoken about that before.
0:50
Speaker 1: But you know you, Andrew Huberman's pretty good. You know,
0:56
Speaker 1: the neuroscientist. Do you know who he is? I'm guessing
1:00
Speaker 1: the Huberman guy?
1:02
Speaker 2: Is that who you said? Yeah, he's come under some
1:05
Speaker 2: fire recently over here?
1:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's he? What's he in troubleful?
1:10
Speaker 3: Well?
1:10
Speaker 1: Did he? I got that about some personal relationships? So
1:13
Speaker 1: something or was it something else.
1:16
Speaker 2: That might be part of it. What I remember specifically are, like,
1:21
Speaker 2: the accusations are a lot of hyperbole in his in
1:26
Speaker 2: his podcasts, Biden error errors, misleading information, and uh, you
1:32
Speaker 2: know that's always difficult when you go on and have
1:34
Speaker 2: these conversations, you know, because you don't have textbooks and
1:39
Speaker 2: papers in front of you to fact check information and
1:43
Speaker 2: real time, so you know, there's got to be some
1:46
Speaker 2: balance struck there. But and again I only know this
1:49
Speaker 2: conversation rather superficially because I was not a follower of
1:53
Speaker 2: his podcast. In fact, I've never even heard of it,
1:55
Speaker 2: to be honest with you, until these accusations started coming
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Speaker 2: down that there's some very alarming errors in some of
2:03
Speaker 2: the podcasts that could be leading misleading people to you know,
2:07
Speaker 2: misbelieve in certain things. And apparently he hawks products, supplements
2:12
Speaker 2: and things of this nature, which automatically, in my mind,
2:16
Speaker 2: puts a conflict of interest in a lot of what
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Speaker 2: he's trying to say. If you're trying to sell something
2:21
Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, you've got to take
2:24
Speaker 2: that information with a grain of salt, because he's probably
2:26
Speaker 2: going to try to market that product at the same time.
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Speaker 1: I guess that's a it's an ongoing challenge, isn't it
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Speaker 1: Because in terms of like full transparency as a scientist
2:38
Speaker 1: and as a researcher and as an educator, you don't
2:43
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about you or may or him necessarily,
2:45
Speaker 1: but in generally speaking with science, like every scientist is
2:49
Speaker 1: a human and everyone, you know, well most people have
2:54
Speaker 1: like you know, everyone's looking through their filter, and everyone's
2:58
Speaker 1: got pre existing beliefs and values, and I guess everyone
3:01
Speaker 1: to an extent has self interest in there. And one
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Speaker 1: of the challenges I've being fully transparent is sometimes the
3:09
Speaker 1: data isn't what we want, or the outcome is and
3:12
Speaker 1: what we want or expected, or sometimes we've got to
3:15
Speaker 1: unlearned things. You know. It's like this is a very
3:19
Speaker 1: well worn example on my show. But I remember, like
3:23
Speaker 1: I started working in gym's in nineteen eighty two, doc,
3:25
Speaker 1: and you know, originally just as a gym instructor and
3:29
Speaker 1: then a trainer, and then an exercise physiologist as I
3:32
Speaker 1: got more qualified and went back to school and all
3:34
Speaker 1: those things. But you know, I remember teaching essentially the
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Speaker 1: food pyramid for a long time because that's what I
3:41
Speaker 1: thought was groundbreaking science, you know, and then you then
3:45
Speaker 1: at some stage, and lots of other things that I've
3:47
Speaker 1: taught and believed that proved to be either somewhat flawed
3:51
Speaker 1: or completely flawed. And then you kind of got to
3:54
Speaker 1: figure out if you want to protect your ego or
3:56
Speaker 1: just be truthful and go, hey everyone, I fuck, I
4:00
Speaker 1: got this wrong thought. I thought I was teaching you
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Speaker 1: something that was true and valid and authentic and the
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Speaker 1: best science. But it turns out it wasn't. So here's
4:11
Speaker 1: what I know now, right.
4:13
Speaker 2: I think that's a really good point, and the whole
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Speaker 2: ego question really gets involved, and I think it works
4:21
Speaker 2: both ways. To be honest with you, Craig, someone can
4:24
Speaker 2: be very egotistical to the fact that they will start
4:27
Speaker 2: doubling down on what is demonstrably false and making themselves
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Speaker 2: look really silly in the process. But because of that vanity,
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Speaker 2: they can't let that go or they can't admit that
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Speaker 2: they were wrong. That's an error on that person's Paul
4:42
Speaker 2: but part but I think as an audience or as
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Speaker 2: you know, listeners or readers, we also have to understand that,
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Speaker 2: you know, it's okay for people to be wrong if
4:55
Speaker 2: they admit something that they believed in was false because
5:00
Speaker 2: because new evidence has presented itself. Okay, yea, and they're
5:03
Speaker 2: modifying their opinion. You can't then alt that person for
5:08
Speaker 2: like waffling or not sticking to their guns. Yeah, I
5:12
Speaker 2: think this is a This is a real issue, especially
5:16
Speaker 2: in a politically polarized society where you know the captain
5:20
Speaker 2: of your team, your political party can't do any wrong
5:23
Speaker 2: no matter what. Okay, even if you can, like you
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Speaker 2: got the receipts and you can show look, you are
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Speaker 2: actually wrong about this. But both the politicians as well
5:35
Speaker 2: as some of the partisans have trouble adapting to change.
5:40
Speaker 2: Scientists go through this too, as you probably know, we
5:43
Speaker 2: need our pet theories and our dogmas, and it can
5:45
Speaker 2: be really painful, very unintuitive to let those sorts of
5:50
Speaker 2: things go. But that's how science works. It is an
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Speaker 2: ongoing process, and you should continually adapt your beliefs and
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Speaker 2: opinions based on the evidence rather than trying to find
6:02
Speaker 2: evidence that suit your beliefs and opinions.
6:07
Speaker 1: And I think when you're trying to find evidence that
6:09
Speaker 1: you know suit your beliefs and opinions, you know, confirmation bias,
6:13
Speaker 1: the old echo chain, but whatever we want to call it,
6:17
Speaker 1: then you're cherity picking data or chery, picking science or
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Speaker 1: pseudoscience that makes you feel good about what you already think.
6:27
Speaker 1: And you know, when your identity and your sense of
6:31
Speaker 1: self are intertwined with a certain idea or ideology or belief,
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Speaker 1: then the idea or the prospect of being open minded
6:42
Speaker 1: or objective or willing to unlearn or put up the
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Speaker 1: end and go I got it wrong. It's almost zero
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Speaker 1: because that belief is part of your identity. So if
6:52
Speaker 1: you attack that belief or that idea, you attack me,
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Speaker 1: so fuck off.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know it days in the process truth
7:01
Speaker 2: and democracy, those can't hold up in a society that
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Speaker 2: will reject reality in evidence or facts in favor of
7:10
Speaker 2: their own personal beliefs or opinions. You know, if we
7:13
Speaker 2: want to move forward and progress in a productive manner
7:16
Speaker 2: in a society, we can't ignore reality. We have to
7:20
Speaker 2: exercise a level of intellectual humility as well as curiosity
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Speaker 2: to continue to learn as new facts present themselves. As
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Speaker 2: a scientist, I've grown very comfortable with the concept of uncertainty,
7:33
Speaker 2: and I try to apply that to all aspects of
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Speaker 2: my life. I am out one hundred percent sure this
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Speaker 2: is the right way to do something, or that this
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Speaker 2: belief is as strong as I feel it could be.
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Speaker 2: And I've found that to be a much more liberating
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Speaker 2: way to live, you know, a much more satisfying way
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Speaker 2: to live than always having to defend my beliefs or assertions.
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Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, I put up It's funny you
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Speaker 1: say this I have. I don't know if you've ever seen,
8:05
Speaker 1: but my Instagram is just about five thousand whiteboard messages
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Speaker 1: that I've handwritten on my whiteboard and then I take
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Speaker 1: a photo of it and I put it up. And
8:17
Speaker 1: the message that I put up any yesterday or the
8:20
Speaker 1: day before was if you're not okay with uncertainty, you
8:23
Speaker 1: won't be okay with life, you guys. Life, I mean,
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Speaker 1: life is unpredictable. Life is uncertain. Life is at times uncomfortable,
8:34
Speaker 1: like all the uns all the things we don't want
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Speaker 1: are inevitable. So rather than trying to be certain and
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Speaker 1: right and comfortable all the time, just leaning to what
8:46
Speaker 1: is not necessarily what you want, but rather what is
8:49
Speaker 1: and what is is that you will be wrong, is
8:52
Speaker 1: that you will fuck up, is that you will you
8:54
Speaker 1: will make mistakes, is that you will get embarrassed, that
8:57
Speaker 1: you will look silly. All of those things part of
9:00
Speaker 1: the human experience and absolutely okay.
9:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, I think there's a deep rooted evolutionary
9:07
Speaker 2: need for us to maintain a certain status, you know,
9:11
Speaker 2: in our tribe. So way back in the day, when
9:13
Speaker 2: we were just for hunters and gatherers on the planes,
9:18
Speaker 2: living in these small communal groups, your reputation was everything.
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Speaker 2: I mean, that was really important. So we had an
9:25
Speaker 2: evolutionary motive to build a reputation, you know, whether it
9:31
Speaker 2: would be false or true that you know, we're the
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Speaker 2: shit you know, ion attractive mate and you know I've
9:37
Speaker 2: got it going on. So when you when you consider
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Speaker 2: the next time you're struggling to prove yourself right or
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Speaker 2: to satisfy your ego in some argument rather than accept
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Speaker 2: another point of view, think about where that impulse came from.
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Speaker 2: And it all seems so silly, doesn't it. I Mean,
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Speaker 2: we don't need to do that anymore. We don't need
10:04
Speaker 2: that level of security in those relationships. It's just an
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Speaker 2: evolutionary farce that we carry with us today that I
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Speaker 2: think does more harm than it does good in the
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Speaker 2: modern society. You know, it might have been very valuable
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Speaker 2: back on the African planes when we were coming down
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Speaker 2: from the trees. But it really just generates a bunch
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Speaker 2: of stress and anxiety today that is completely unnecessary.
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Speaker 1: And I think the iron is that well, anyway, my
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Speaker 1: experienced up is that the more the more authentic I am,
10:44
Speaker 1: which obviously sometimes I get trapped up in all my
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Speaker 1: own bullshit, but I try to be truly transparent and
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Speaker 1: authentic and book about the things I got, the numerous
10:54
Speaker 1: things I got wrong and the few things I got right,
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Speaker 1: and my own issues and insecurity and self doubt, imposter
11:00
Speaker 1: syndrome and all the bullshit that comes with being Craig Harper.
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Speaker 1: But the more that I opened that door and just
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Speaker 1: you know, while teaching and coaching and encouraging, but also
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Speaker 1: open the look, I'm a really flawed human having it go,
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Speaker 1: people resonate more with that than the guy who presents
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Speaker 1: himself as knowing everything like and I'm not doing it strategically.
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Speaker 1: It's just a by product where I went, oh wow,
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Speaker 1: I don't need to be the smartest person, not only
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Speaker 1: in the room but in any conversation even right.
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Speaker 2: So it's interesting that you say people resonate with that,
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Speaker 2: because I do think in certain categories of individuals it
11:41
Speaker 2: certainly does resonate because we've all been there, we've all
11:44
Speaker 2: felt that way. It's something we have in common. But
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Speaker 2: imagine if a politician exuded that attitude, how slammed they
11:53
Speaker 2: would get. I mean, at least in this country they would.
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Speaker 2: I mean, if you had someone who was intellectually humble,
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Speaker 2: or curious or wanted to hear both sides of the
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Speaker 2: story and try to compromise and come to the truth
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Speaker 2: rather than what the party says. You're dead on a
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Speaker 2: rival as a politician, because in this country, at least,
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Speaker 2: you have to be so confident, so authoritative, so sure
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Speaker 2: of yourself that or else you're gonna look weak. And
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Speaker 2: I think that is a really horrible way to go
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Speaker 2: about picking who's going to lead you. I would much
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Speaker 2: rather have Craig Harper for president. You know, someone who
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Speaker 2: has that sort of humility that can admit a mistake
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Speaker 2: or admit that I'm curious to what the other side
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Speaker 2: has to say, you know, or even admit that some
12:47
Speaker 2: of their arguments have merits. So let's investigate a way
12:51
Speaker 2: that we can incorporate both sides of the equation and
12:55
Speaker 2: move forward. That to me seems much more leadership quality
13:00
Speaker 2: and in fact, if you look at businesses, those are
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Speaker 2: the kinds of leaders that technically succeed the most. I
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Speaker 2: think studies have been done on this. Leaders that are kind,
13:09
Speaker 2: who seek compromise and who are humble are much more
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Speaker 2: successful than the tyrannical authoritarians who are full of ego
13:18
Speaker 2: and pride and just say my way or the highway.
13:22
Speaker 2: Those often fall flat on their face. And you can
13:24
Speaker 2: see that with politics as well.
13:28
Speaker 1: I used to work in radio dot for a long
13:30
Speaker 1: time and I basically was I worked on a there's
13:34
Speaker 1: a station in Melbourne and around austraight out called the
13:37
Speaker 1: Sports Sense Timement Network, which is just called SCN, and
13:41
Speaker 1: we used to have a show called The Science of
13:43
Speaker 1: Sport and I used to do you know for a
13:45
Speaker 1: long time, and we just audience view people. There be
13:48
Speaker 1: general chat, but also people ring up with questions. And
13:52
Speaker 1: sometimes people would ring up with questions that were way
13:55
Speaker 1: out of my pay grade, like the more clinical medical
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Speaker 1: questions than exercise science or physiology you or you know.
14:01
Speaker 1: And I would say to people, yeah, I can't really
14:04
Speaker 1: answer that. I could have a guess, but we definitely
14:07
Speaker 1: don't need the guy on the radio guessing about your
14:11
Speaker 1: knee problem. When I can't see you, I can't assess you.
14:14
Speaker 1: I've never met you, I've never seen you walk or
14:16
Speaker 1: get in or out of a chair, And so I'd
14:18
Speaker 1: be doing me and you were disservice if I gave
14:22
Speaker 1: you some random clinical diet and the producer would say
14:26
Speaker 1: to me, you kind you can't say you don't know,
14:30
Speaker 1: and I'd say to him, but I don't know. I'm
14:34
Speaker 1: not a doctor or a physical therapist as you call
14:37
Speaker 1: him in the States. Over here we call him a physiogm.
14:40
Speaker 1: I'm you know, my job is prescribing exercise and all,
14:44
Speaker 1: you know, But there are times when I just say, look,
14:48
Speaker 1: I have some thoughts and ideas, but that's not sharing
14:51
Speaker 1: in a public place on that, and I would be
14:54
Speaker 1: at best having an educated guess. And after a while
14:58
Speaker 1: I had sorted itself out. They didn't like me saying
15:01
Speaker 1: I don't know, because they're like, you're the expert. I go,
15:05
Speaker 1: I'm the expert on exercise prescription and programming. I'm not
15:09
Speaker 1: a doctor, so I'm not going to answer doctor questions.
15:12
Speaker 1: You know.
15:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it would be irresponsible if you did. You know,
15:18
Speaker 2: you're just acknowledging, you know, some of the limits of
15:22
Speaker 2: your knowledge, which I wish more people would do, because
15:26
Speaker 2: we get a lot of people who go way outside
15:28
Speaker 2: their lean and start pontificating on matters of all sorts
15:33
Speaker 2: of things in a very authoritative way. It's perfectly fine
15:36
Speaker 2: to have a conversation and throw opinions and thoughts around,
15:40
Speaker 2: but when you come off as an expert in a
15:42
Speaker 2: field where you're not really an expert in that field,
15:45
Speaker 2: then you start to get into an area that is
15:48
Speaker 2: arguably unethical.
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Speaker 1: Yes, and also, like the truth is with a lot
15:55
Speaker 1: of especially when we're trying to treat a human, a
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Speaker 1: unique individual human who has their own unique physiology and biology.
16:05
Speaker 1: It's like what will work for you know? It's like
16:07
Speaker 1: some people can eat nuts and some people can't. It's
16:10
Speaker 1: the same thing, and they both have a body. And
16:13
Speaker 1: some people will do a certain workout and have no
16:15
Speaker 1: post exercise soreness, and some people won't be able to
16:18
Speaker 1: move for three days. And some people will go and
16:21
Speaker 1: do a metation class and feel relaxed and calm and rejuvenated.
16:26
Speaker 1: If you put me in a meditation class, I want
16:28
Speaker 1: to punch someone in the face because it doesn't work
16:31
Speaker 1: for me. Right, Like fuck, meditation, put me in nature,
16:34
Speaker 1: put me on a motorbike. That's when I'm calm, you know.
16:37
Speaker 1: And it's not that it's good or bad, right or wrong.
16:40
Speaker 1: It's trying to understand individually what people need. And there's
16:44
Speaker 1: this very kind of almost generic mindset that you know,
16:49
Speaker 1: I feel this way or I'm dealing with this, and
16:51
Speaker 1: then people go, oh, you know what you need? You
16:53
Speaker 1: need to do that. Well, maybe there's a lady called
16:58
Speaker 1: Abigail Shreyer who I've spoken about this a bit recently,
17:00
Speaker 1: but she wrote a book in the last few months
17:03
Speaker 1: called Bad Therapy, and she was talking about she interviewed
17:09
Speaker 1: lots of great psychotherapists and psychologists and psychiatrists, you know,
17:15
Speaker 1: ladies in their field, and basically what came out is
17:18
Speaker 1: that for some people, talk therapy is brilliant and for
17:21
Speaker 1: other people, talk therapy is terrible, you know, the exact
17:25
Speaker 1: same treatment, so to speak. And so you know, there's
17:30
Speaker 1: this individual variability about what will work for Bill won't
17:33
Speaker 1: work for crying necessarily, because Bill aren't cry and Craig
17:36
Speaker 1: ain't Bill.
17:37
Speaker 2: Right right, And you can even do that for the
17:40
Speaker 2: individual because what works for you at a certain age
17:44
Speaker 2: might not work for you at a later age, you know,
17:47
Speaker 2: So you've got to keep this one size fits all model,
17:52
Speaker 2: you know, just throw that out the window. Everybody is
17:54
Speaker 2: different and in fact, you are different at you know,
17:58
Speaker 2: variable parts in your life, so you always have to
18:01
Speaker 2: keep an open mind towards that. It goes back to
18:04
Speaker 2: one of these other evolutionary biases that we've had long ago.
18:08
Speaker 2: You know, our brains evolve to make these shortcuts because
18:11
Speaker 2: it's an energy haul. It consumes a huge amount of
18:13
Speaker 2: our caloric intake. So our brain, as wonderful and smart
18:18
Speaker 2: as it is, it takes a lot of mental shortcuts,
18:21
Speaker 2: and generalizing is one of the key ones that it does.
18:25
Speaker 2: It saves a lot of time, and you know, sometimes
18:28
Speaker 2: it gets it right. But when we're doing when we
18:31
Speaker 2: chase these one size fits all models, that's exactly what
18:34
Speaker 2: we're doing. We're just extrapolating one thing and we think
18:38
Speaker 2: it applies to every situation without any exceptions. And that's
18:42
Speaker 2: a really lazy way to go about thinking. And I
18:45
Speaker 2: think when you're talking in terms of like exercise, regimen,
18:50
Speaker 2: diet therapy, and in my field, personalized medicine is all
18:55
Speaker 2: the rave these days, so we're seeing the same concept
19:00
Speaker 2: being applied across all these different disciplines where even with medication,
19:05
Speaker 2: you know, you would think we're all human beings. This
19:08
Speaker 2: pill should do the same thing in person A as
19:12
Speaker 2: it does for person B. Most of the time, it
19:15
Speaker 2: probably does, but there are exceptions out there. Okay. There
19:19
Speaker 2: are sex differences, for example, that are very clear. There
19:23
Speaker 2: are age differences, that's the most obvious one. There's body
19:26
Speaker 2: size differences. Okay. So this wave of personalized medicine hopefully
19:31
Speaker 2: will make you know, future pharmaceuticals much more amenable to
19:38
Speaker 2: individual people and will find more targeted treatments. And you
19:41
Speaker 2: can apply that same principle across the board, like with
19:45
Speaker 2: psychological therapy, talk therapy as you mentioned, and even diet
19:48
Speaker 2: and exercise programs. So people should never get frustrated that
19:52
Speaker 2: something that worked for one person isn't working for them.
19:55
Speaker 2: You know, it's not like it's your fault or anything.
19:57
Speaker 2: It's probably something biological that you have no control over,
20:01
Speaker 2: and you're just going to find a different solution.
20:05
Speaker 1: What do you think about Like last time we spoke about,
20:08
Speaker 1: I think that the show was well. The show is
20:11
Speaker 1: definitely around you know, people being able to apply scientific
20:16
Speaker 1: ideas and principles and practices even though they're not scientists.
20:19
Speaker 1: That's what we spoke about.
20:20
Speaker 3: But what do you think about the idea of us
20:26
Speaker 3: you know, an equals one, but say putting something into
20:29
Speaker 3: practice for a period of times seven days, for ten days,
20:33
Speaker 3: twenty eight days, and just changing that one variable to
20:36
Speaker 3: see what happens.
20:37
Speaker 1: So when COVID started in early twenty twenty, you know,
20:43
Speaker 1: Melbourne in Australia was like you could shoot a shotgun
20:48
Speaker 1: up the street and there was because everyone was locked
20:51
Speaker 1: down for like I didn't have another human being come
20:55
Speaker 1: to my house for eight months, right But anyway, one
21:00
Speaker 1: of the byproducts of that for me was I was
21:02
Speaker 1: moving less and I gained not a lot of weight,
21:04
Speaker 1: but I guess the equivalent of you know, ten pounds
21:08
Speaker 1: maybe four four and a half kilos, and which for
21:12
Speaker 1: me is a lot because I always stay around the
21:14
Speaker 1: same and I just thought, I'm going to cut out lunch.
21:18
Speaker 1: I'm just not going to have lunch for a couple
21:21
Speaker 1: of weeks and see what happens. Because I was we
21:25
Speaker 1: couldn't even go to the gym, so I had to try.
21:27
Speaker 1: I had to figure out how to train at home
21:29
Speaker 1: without all this stuff because the gyms were closed, which
21:31
Speaker 1: is crazy anyway, that's another that's another conversation. But so
21:37
Speaker 1: I cut out lunch for fourteen days, and the first day,
21:41
Speaker 1: what I noticed was that mid afternoon kind of fatigue
21:45
Speaker 1: and tiredness that I was getting, which I was thinking
21:48
Speaker 1: to myself, like, I'm sixty hours fifty six. Then I
21:51
Speaker 1: was thinking, oh, well, Craig, that's because you're fifty six, right,
21:54
Speaker 1: you're old. You get tired in the afternoon, right, that's
21:58
Speaker 1: just suck it up, princess, your future. I first day
22:04
Speaker 1: I noticed that I didn't have that dip. Second day good,
22:07
Speaker 1: My energy from breakfast to dinner was good. And every
22:10
Speaker 1: every day this tiredness that I'd had disappeared. I lost
22:15
Speaker 1: the weight, my mental energy, my focus, my ability to concentrate,
22:20
Speaker 1: interview people had meaningful everything was better. And my body
22:25
Speaker 1: told me, or taught me, you don't need to eat
22:27
Speaker 1: as much as you eat or as often as you eat.
22:30
Speaker 1: And so that was the last time that was, you know,
22:32
Speaker 1: four years ago that I ate.
22:34
Speaker 2: Lunch, and wow, so today's still today. You still don't lunch.
22:40
Speaker 1: I breakfast and dinner. And again I don't recommend that
22:42
Speaker 1: to people. It's not a I just tell people what
22:45
Speaker 1: I did, what my what my data was, and my
22:50
Speaker 1: personal experience. And it's funny because if not for that situation,
22:55
Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't have done that, you know. And yeah,
23:00
Speaker 1: it's like I know, for example, if I do some
23:03
Speaker 1: cardio training in the morning, my brain works better through
23:07
Speaker 1: the day. I couldn't give you a number, but it's diffinitent,
23:10
Speaker 1: Like there's all of these things that like, your body
23:14
Speaker 1: is this amazing feedback system, this biological feedback system that's
23:19
Speaker 1: always telling you something right, But I think we've become
23:22
Speaker 1: somewhat disconnected from it.
23:25
Speaker 2: Yeah. Maybe so people don't listen to their body signals
23:28
Speaker 2: as much, or they surrender too easily. Like it sounds
23:32
Speaker 2: like you had an adaption phase. Your body did not
23:35
Speaker 2: adapt too well, missing lunch for the first few days
23:38
Speaker 2: or a week, but you gave it enough time where
23:41
Speaker 2: your body said, Okay, this is what Craig's doing. He
23:44
Speaker 2: really means it. We're just going to have to adjust
23:47
Speaker 2: and your body did so. Yeah we should. I mean,
23:52
Speaker 2: Socrates said, know thyself, and a part of that is
23:55
Speaker 2: understanding and paying attention to what your body is trying
23:59
Speaker 2: to tell you. And even if you're you know, if
24:02
Speaker 2: you're a lot of times when we get into trying
24:04
Speaker 2: healthy habits or making healthy changes, our body is resistant
24:08
Speaker 2: at first because it loves the comforts that it previously enjoyed.
24:13
Speaker 2: Forming new habits is difficult because we're abandoning those creature comforts,
24:18
Speaker 2: if you will. But you've got to gut through that,
24:21
Speaker 2: just as you did with you know, this little noontime
24:26
Speaker 2: fast I suppose we can call it. Yeah, you get
24:29
Speaker 2: over those initial hurdles and you'll be surprised at what
24:34
Speaker 2: your body can do. And I think a lot of people,
24:37
Speaker 2: especially in the US, can get by just fine with
24:41
Speaker 2: a lot less food. Okay, we gorge ourselves to the
24:45
Speaker 2: point where, you know, we think it's the norm. We
24:48
Speaker 2: just eat way way too much. I don't think a
24:51
Speaker 2: lot of people count calories much less, you know, pay
24:54
Speaker 2: attention to when they're actually full. They'll just continue to
24:57
Speaker 2: keep on eating. So if people are a little more
25:00
Speaker 2: cognizant of that, I think that would go a long way.
25:05
Speaker 2: And if you have trouble, you know, interpreting some of
25:08
Speaker 2: what your body is telling you, like in the case
25:09
Speaker 2: of diet, you can do things like count calories and
25:13
Speaker 2: things like that. It's a crude measure, but it's relatively effective.
25:17
Speaker 2: It gives you at least some kind of gauge as
25:19
Speaker 2: to what sort of amount of foods you're putting into
25:22
Speaker 2: your body that might be way more than you actually need.
25:28
Speaker 2: So there's a variety of ways you can monitor the
25:32
Speaker 2: signals your body is telling you.
25:36
Speaker 1: Definitely, I think. Also, you know you were talking in
25:41
Speaker 1: Togo about how you know our body changes over time
25:46
Speaker 1: and maybe what worked for you in your twenties won't
25:48
Speaker 1: work for you in your thirties, forties, fifty.
25:52
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I can't eat a plate of hot wings
25:55
Speaker 2: at ten o'clock at night anymore. It just ain't happen.
25:58
Speaker 2: But I used to be like a go to thing
26:01
Speaker 2: when I was young, and I didn't think twice about it.
26:03
Speaker 2: I do it now. Oh man, I probably won't see
26:06
Speaker 2: you again.
26:07
Speaker 1: You know that's hilarious, right, Well, I grew up in
26:10
Speaker 1: the country, So I grew up in rural Victoria drinking
26:14
Speaker 1: gallons of milk. Well at half a cup of milk.
26:18
Speaker 1: Now I'm out, like it's I can't. I have to, man,
26:24
Speaker 1: Lactose don't go great anymore because you know what is it?
26:28
Speaker 1: It lactise is the enzyme that breaks down lactose. Don't
26:31
Speaker 1: we stop producing as much lactise as we get older
26:35
Speaker 1: and so my body doesn't love it.
26:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, lactose intolerance is related to that enzyme, right, And
26:44
Speaker 2: you know people who can digest lactose are actually the mutants.
26:49
Speaker 2: Human beings were never meant to ingest milk beyond breastfeeding periods. Okay,
26:56
Speaker 2: that enzyme is supposed to get shut off. But as
27:00
Speaker 2: humans started to migrate and domesticate animals in areas where
27:06
Speaker 2: there wasn't plentiful food, they would rely on the milk
27:11
Speaker 2: that those animals produced in order to survive. So people
27:15
Speaker 2: who continued to make at least some sort of lactase
27:18
Speaker 2: had a survival advantage in those environmental areas. So that's
27:26
Speaker 2: why some people are lactose tolerant. But yeah, you could
27:31
Speaker 2: make an argument that we're not meant to be drinking
27:34
Speaker 2: milk after breastfeeding, but some people can tolerate it, and
27:38
Speaker 2: it's perfectly fine.
27:41
Speaker 1: Now, I feel like I've been quite negligent of you
27:46
Speaker 1: and your work, and I decided today it's taken us
27:49
Speaker 1: long time to get to this point, but I wanted
27:53
Speaker 1: to talk about your book, which is placed to meet me, jeens,
27:56
Speaker 1: gems and the curious forces that make us who we are.
28:01
Speaker 1: But I wanted, I want to, I want you to
28:03
Speaker 1: kind of and I think almost like the subtext is
28:06
Speaker 1: or like what makes me me? Or what makes us us?
28:11
Speaker 1: So can we talk about your book a little bit?
28:14
Speaker 1: And this is way out of my area of expertise,
28:17
Speaker 1: so I'm going to be completely led by you. But firstly,
28:21
Speaker 1: give us a snapshot of the book and why you
28:24
Speaker 1: wrote the book if you would.
28:26
Speaker 3: No.
28:27
Speaker 2: Absolutely, If there's one thing I love to talk about
28:30
Speaker 2: in this world, it's that book. I put my heart
28:33
Speaker 2: and soul into that thing, and it was years in
28:35
Speaker 2: the making, and it grew out of a number of things,
28:41
Speaker 2: primarily the research that I do at Indiana University, but
28:45
Speaker 2: also just an intellectual curiosity of why I like certain
28:50
Speaker 2: things and why other people don't. You know, why I
28:53
Speaker 2: would do this behavior and why other people would not.
28:58
Speaker 2: So I wanted to understand some of the biological, you know,
29:04
Speaker 2: properties that gave rise to those very different behaviors. And
29:09
Speaker 2: the very first one that intrigued me the most was
29:14
Speaker 2: it's a benign example, but it's but it's an interesting
29:17
Speaker 2: one was as I was growing up, I always had
29:21
Speaker 2: this severe aversion to broccoli. I just could not stand
29:26
Speaker 2: that vegetable or its relatives like caulflower and Brussels sprouts,
29:31
Speaker 2: all these cruciferous vegetables. I just put them in my
29:34
Speaker 2: mouth and I just immediately wanted to gag. In fact,
29:37
Speaker 2: my reaction was so bad. If my mom was even
29:40
Speaker 2: cooking these things in the kitchen, I would have to
29:42
Speaker 2: leave because the aroma was was so horrible. And I
29:48
Speaker 2: was kind of surprised because I didn't encounter a lot
29:51
Speaker 2: of people like me. A lot of people could stomach this,
29:57
Speaker 2: you know this what these vegetables very well, and I
30:01
Speaker 2: couldn't understand why they would put this gross thing into
30:04
Speaker 2: their mouth. And it turns out that I was doing
30:07
Speaker 2: some research on this, that there is a gene Okay
30:13
Speaker 2: that is mutated in people like me, and it encodes
30:16
Speaker 2: for a taste bud that recognizes the bitter chemicals that
30:20
Speaker 2: are present in cruciferous vegetables like broccoli, and it recognizes
30:24
Speaker 2: them very strongly. It binds to them very tightly, and
30:31
Speaker 2: when that happens on your tongue, it sends a signal
30:33
Speaker 2: to your brain that Oh my god, you just put
30:35
Speaker 2: something poisonous in your mouth. You better spit this out.
30:38
Speaker 2: It's way too bitter. You shouldn't swallow it. But most people,
30:43
Speaker 2: they have a taste bud receptor that doesn't bind to
30:46
Speaker 2: that chemical very tightly, so they don't sense that degree
30:49
Speaker 2: of bitterness that I would sense. So there's twenty five
30:54
Speaker 2: percent of people in the world, according to the estimates,
30:57
Speaker 2: that are these so called supertasters like me, have these
31:00
Speaker 2: taste buds that just bind way too tightly to those
31:03
Speaker 2: bitter chemicals. So in a way, Craig, I'm a genetic
31:06
Speaker 2: mutation and I miss out on some of these vegetables
31:11
Speaker 2: that most people in the world can enjoy. And I
31:16
Speaker 2: even got myself DNA tested to confirm this result, right,
31:21
Speaker 2: and lo and behold, I do have this genetic mutation.
31:23
Speaker 2: I'm a bona fide super taster. My son is not,
31:28
Speaker 2: but my daughter is. So this is a heritable thing. Wow,
31:32
Speaker 2: And that explains why I can't stomach the broccoli. And
31:38
Speaker 2: there's a really interesting evolutionary component to that story in
31:43
Speaker 2: that as we were hunters and gatherers foraging for food,
31:47
Speaker 2: we would experiment with a lot of different plant life
31:50
Speaker 2: you know, different roots and leaves and things like that
31:52
Speaker 2: to find out what was edible. And I would have
31:56
Speaker 2: been one of the people who might have survived. If
31:59
Speaker 2: the rest of the trial I ate something and couldn't
32:01
Speaker 2: detect the bitter chemicals in it, I wouldn't have been
32:05
Speaker 2: able to eat that, So, you know, I would have
32:08
Speaker 2: had an advantage there. So that's the evolutionary angle to
32:13
Speaker 2: that story. And that's just one small example of how
32:18
Speaker 2: there's a biological basis for everything. So people take their
32:22
Speaker 2: tastes in food and drink, you know, very seriously, you know,
32:26
Speaker 2: and they think it's something that is inside of them
32:29
Speaker 2: in their mind that they decide I really like this,
32:32
Speaker 2: or I have a strong palate for such and such.
32:36
Speaker 2: And what these sorts of experiments are telling me is
32:39
Speaker 2: that we don't have control over what we like and
32:43
Speaker 2: dislike in terms of like food and maybe some beverages.
32:46
Speaker 2: We don't control that. That that's a genetic you know,
32:50
Speaker 2: element that we're born with. And you know that that
32:56
Speaker 2: was kind of indicating for me in a way that
32:58
Speaker 2: you know, I could tell my parents, look, I'm a
33:00
Speaker 2: genetic mutant. There was a reason why I was stuffing
33:04
Speaker 2: all this broccoli into my mouth and running to the bathroom.
33:09
Speaker 2: I was spitting it out right, and that was vindicating
33:15
Speaker 2: but also unsettling because it set the thesis for the
33:18
Speaker 2: whole book. I go through example after example after example
33:22
Speaker 2: of all these things we think are in our control.
33:24
Speaker 2: Who Bill decides this, Craig decides that, and it's hogwash.
33:29
Speaker 2: It's not true at all. There are biological bases for
33:32
Speaker 2: just about every personality and behavioral trait that we have.
33:37
Speaker 1: Wow, that's so interesting. So you weren't just a kid
33:41
Speaker 1: with a bad attitude you would, well.
33:45
Speaker 2: Some some might, some might dispute that, but yeah, I don't.
33:50
Speaker 2: I don't know how my parents feel about it these days,
33:52
Speaker 2: you know, even though I showed them the data. But yeah,
33:57
Speaker 2: that's what most parents would think. And I can't fault
33:59
Speaker 2: them for that. You know, I would have thought the
34:01
Speaker 2: same thing if I didn't have this knowledge. I was like,
34:03
Speaker 2: shut up and just eat your vegetables. You know they're
34:05
Speaker 2: good for you. But you know, I now have great
34:09
Speaker 2: sympathy for a you know, like my own daughter, a
34:12
Speaker 2: child who says, I really can't handle this, this is
34:15
Speaker 2: too bitter.
34:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about things like psychopathy and sociopathy? How much
34:24
Speaker 1: of that do you think? I don't know if this
34:26
Speaker 1: is your I'm sure you've got an opinion, but how
34:28
Speaker 1: much of that is genetic? How much of that is predetermined?
34:34
Speaker 1: So are you referring to like people who are psychopaths
34:38
Speaker 1: or social rze? Right, So we have a guy on
34:41
Speaker 1: the show regularly who that's his thing he's talking about,
34:45
Speaker 1: and he believes it's a lot about you know, what
34:47
Speaker 1: people are born with their brain chemistry.
34:51
Speaker 2: There's a lot of evidence to support that hypothesis. And
34:55
Speaker 2: it's really surprising because if there's any behavior that you
34:58
Speaker 2: think a person has control over, it would be how
35:02
Speaker 2: aggressive they are. Okay, And you know, I do think
35:08
Speaker 2: there are certainly some sorts, some sort of therapy and
35:12
Speaker 2: things like that that can help people manage aggression and
35:17
Speaker 2: maybe rage disorder. But there are some really fascinating studies
35:21
Speaker 2: that are signaling to scientists and doctors that there might
35:27
Speaker 2: be a lot more to this equation than we've ever
35:30
Speaker 2: appreciated before. Let me give you a couple quick examples.
35:34
Speaker 2: So most people, you know, they think about genes, and
35:38
Speaker 2: they'll think about you know, how tall are you? You know,
35:43
Speaker 2: your hair color, your eye color, whether you like broccoli
35:47
Speaker 2: or not. Things like that. Physical things, yeah, but genes
35:50
Speaker 2: can actually have a very far reaching effect into psychological things,
35:54
Speaker 2: into the mental dimension that we possess, including how we
35:59
Speaker 2: re act our impulse control, whether we're aggressive or or not.
36:06
Speaker 2: And one of the key genes that has been implicated
36:10
Speaker 2: in this is something called MAOA. It's also called the
36:13
Speaker 2: warrior gene. People don't like that name because a single
36:19
Speaker 2: gene never really governs behavior. Behavior is dictated by hundreds,
36:23
Speaker 2: maybe thousands of genes, So we've got to keep that
36:25
Speaker 2: caveat in mind. But some very interesting studies have been
36:29
Speaker 2: done with this MOOA receptor, and what it does is
36:32
Speaker 2: it encodes an enzyme in our brain that breaks down
36:37
Speaker 2: certain neurotransmitters, and people who are born with the mutation
36:42
Speaker 2: in this receptor, or excuse me, in this particular gene
36:46
Speaker 2: can't break those neurotransmitters down and it leads to a
36:50
Speaker 2: toxic build up that causes them to be aggressive and
36:54
Speaker 2: lose impulse control. And you can make this mutation in
36:58
Speaker 2: mice and they exhibit the same aggressive behavior. So it's
37:03
Speaker 2: a really compelling piece of data that there is at
37:07
Speaker 2: least one part, you know, involving genetics that goes into aggression,
37:14
Speaker 2: and genes of course build our brain and dictate a
37:17
Speaker 2: lot of our brain chemistry. So when we see studies
37:21
Speaker 2: that show certain neurotransmitters are elevated and people who are aggressive,
37:25
Speaker 2: that probably has a genetic root or maybe an epigenetic root,
37:30
Speaker 2: you know, that is responsible for it, and one of
37:33
Speaker 2: the more fascinating things. Sorry if I'm rambling on the answer,
37:38
Speaker 2: but I think it's a really question. It's an important
37:43
Speaker 2: question and has very real moral implications as to how
37:48
Speaker 2: we treat offenders moving forward. Right, So what do you
37:53
Speaker 2: think about something like this? Pedophilia is an awful, awful crime.
37:58
Speaker 2: It's heinous. So there was once this person, this man
38:03
Speaker 2: who never really got in any trouble all of his life,
38:07
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden started developing urges that
38:12
Speaker 2: were just you know, pedophilic in nature, very heinous things
38:16
Speaker 2: that are just unconscionable. And it turns out shortly after
38:21
Speaker 2: those behaviors were starting to be exhibited, doctors discovered a
38:27
Speaker 2: tumor in his brain. And I forget which section of
38:31
Speaker 2: the brain it was in, but when they removed the tumor,
38:35
Speaker 2: these urges stopped, they went away, So it was pressing
38:40
Speaker 2: up against some part of his brain, and that anomaly
38:44
Speaker 2: was causing those heinous crimes. And lo and behold, that
38:51
Speaker 2: tumor slowly came back, and with it, the pedophilia came
38:55
Speaker 2: back as well. So it's a real nice case of evidence.
39:00
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not nice because it's pedophilia, but it's
39:02
Speaker 2: a compelling piece of evidence. It's a it's a convincing
39:05
Speaker 2: case that when you see some sort of unusual behavior,
39:10
Speaker 2: no matter how disgusting it is, there's a biological route
39:14
Speaker 2: to it, and we're just possibly ignorant as to what
39:18
Speaker 2: is causing it. And then you answer, you get to
39:21
Speaker 2: the real meat of this question. What do you do
39:24
Speaker 2: with a person like that? It obviously wasn't their fault,
39:28
Speaker 2: but we can't let them run amok in society. You know,
39:32
Speaker 2: we have to protect society from individuals like this. But
39:35
Speaker 2: their behavior was obviously biological, out of their control. So
39:40
Speaker 2: that's a real quandary, and that's what this you know,
39:43
Speaker 2: the science is trying to inform what we should do
39:47
Speaker 2: in terms of jurisprudence that will address two issues, one
39:52
Speaker 2: providing justice and two keeping society safe. It's interesting to
39:56
Speaker 2: where the science has brought us. But I do hope God,
40:00
Speaker 2: what it does, I hope it engender is a bit
40:03
Speaker 2: more empathy and sympathy in people when they see anomaloust
40:07
Speaker 2: behavior out there, that it's a there's a biological cause.
40:12
Speaker 2: And that's actually good news because if we can figure
40:15
Speaker 2: it out, we might be able to do something more
40:18
Speaker 2: productive about it.
40:19
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I've thought about that before. I'm discussing you know,
40:26
Speaker 1: the way that people are from one of a less
40:28
Speaker 1: scientific explanation, but the way that people are wired. You know,
40:33
Speaker 1: what people are attracted to that they didn't choose, Like,
40:38
Speaker 1: while I'm with you, it's a horrible crime and behavior
40:41
Speaker 1: and we can't obviously be tolerated, and there needs to
40:46
Speaker 1: be a practical strategy to dealing with that in a
40:48
Speaker 1: legal strategy. But you know, even if we wind it
40:52
Speaker 1: back to something less egregious, I guess, like you know,
40:58
Speaker 1: if somebody's attracted you know, same sex couples, you know,
41:03
Speaker 1: it's like I'm heterosexual, I'm homosexual, whatever it is, I'm
41:07
Speaker 1: attracted to this or that, and it's not I didn't
41:11
Speaker 1: choose that. That's just how I am. That's how I'm compelled,
41:15
Speaker 1: you know, it is, it is and even like you know.
41:20
Speaker 1: So the guy that I have on regularly, his name
41:22
Speaker 1: is David Gillespie's a really well known author in Australia,
41:25
Speaker 1: and he talks about even with sociopathy, people who are
41:28
Speaker 1: born basically with an inability to feel empathy. It's not
41:34
Speaker 1: that they are choosing to be bad, although they can
41:38
Speaker 1: still make choices, of course, but they actually don't feel
41:42
Speaker 1: what you and I feel. So if somebody gets hurt,
41:46
Speaker 1: if an old lady falls over one, I'm running over
41:50
Speaker 1: to help. I'm feeling. I'm offering can I drive her home?
41:53
Speaker 1: Can I do it? You know? And I'm genuinely caring
41:56
Speaker 1: because I'm glad that I can feel for people and
42:00
Speaker 1: sympathize as can you. But some people just don't have that.
42:05
Speaker 1: They see someone get hurt, they do not have that response.
42:09
Speaker 1: And that is for one of again a better term,
42:12
Speaker 1: I mean, that is just how they're wired like that.
42:15
Speaker 1: They're not choosing to not feel, they just actually don't feel.
42:20
Speaker 1: And so there are yeah, there are these a myriad
42:23
Speaker 1: of complicated psychological, biological, and sociological and ethical and moral
42:30
Speaker 1: issues that are intertwined which make us uncomfortable, and I
42:35
Speaker 1: do not know the answer. It's like with people that
42:37
Speaker 1: are naturally attracted to children, I don't know. Of course,
42:44
Speaker 1: I hate that behavior and I think there needs to
42:46
Speaker 1: be a criminal consequence and all of that. But yeah,
42:50
Speaker 1: what do we do with those people? Like how do
42:54
Speaker 1: we you know? And it's understandable that people go, oh,
42:57
Speaker 1: fuck them, they can all burn in helen, which people do,
43:00
Speaker 1: and I understand that too, but it also doesn't it
43:05
Speaker 1: doesn't fix the or it doesn't address the problem. You know. Yeah,
43:10
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it is. It is a it's
43:13
Speaker 1: a multi dimensional, complicated thing, and that's you know, these
43:18
Speaker 1: things are not comfortable or easy, but they are nonetheless
43:22
Speaker 1: real and part of the human experience.
43:24
Speaker 2: Right right, absolutely, And I don't have an answer on
43:28
Speaker 2: where we go forward with this, you know, but I
43:30
Speaker 2: find the data really interesting and it's certainly guide us
43:34
Speaker 2: in making some reform. And I'm a little dismayed that
43:38
Speaker 2: it isn't happening sooner rather than later, because the current
43:41
Speaker 2: penal system is just you know, to lock up criminals
43:44
Speaker 2: with a bunch of other criminals and sometimes put them
43:47
Speaker 2: in solitary confinement. And you know, like you said, most
43:51
Speaker 2: people are just like, fine, lock them away, you know,
43:54
Speaker 2: throw away the key. You know, I don't really care
43:57
Speaker 2: about them, even though the data is telling us that
44:00
Speaker 2: they were born with certain biological predispositions that were completely
44:06
Speaker 2: outside of their control and or grew up in an
44:09
Speaker 2: environment that they didn't choose that kind of brought out
44:12
Speaker 2: some of these really negative behaviors or behavioral problems. And
44:18
Speaker 2: instead of trying to make a genuine effort to rehabilitate
44:22
Speaker 2: people or understand what's wrong, we just have this kind
44:26
Speaker 2: of very crude We're going to lock them up and
44:31
Speaker 2: hope that serving five or ten years behind bars teaches
44:35
Speaker 2: them a lesson. We know categorically that is not working.
44:39
Speaker 2: That does not deter crime, nor does it rehabilitate people.
44:44
Speaker 2: So we should abandon what's not working and use this
44:47
Speaker 2: data to try to move forward and identify maybe a
44:51
Speaker 2: biological intervention that could be much more effective. So that's
44:56
Speaker 2: where I hope things go. And the science is really
45:00
Speaker 2: making a convincing case with every year that goes by.
45:04
Speaker 2: But what the real challenge is going to be convincing
45:06
Speaker 2: people at an emotional level. Because I completely understand that
45:11
Speaker 2: the angst and the anger that goes towards people who
45:16
Speaker 2: commit some of the most heinous crimes. You might be
45:19
Speaker 2: aware that there was this really interesting case recently. I
45:23
Speaker 2: believe it was in the UK. This woman was put
45:26
Speaker 2: away for murdering her own children. I forget how many
45:32
Speaker 2: of them, but you know, the first child or two
45:38
Speaker 2: it was, I believe, addressed as SIDS, the sudden infant
45:43
Speaker 2: death syndrome. But then after like a third or fourth
45:46
Speaker 2: child also died, suspicions deepened and they figured that she
45:51
Speaker 2: must be murdering these children and passing it off as SIDS.
45:56
Speaker 2: Turns out, I don't know how long it's been, but
45:58
Speaker 2: it's been years late. They actually identified a genetic mutation
46:04
Speaker 2: in her children that redisposed them to SIDS. So doesn't
46:09
Speaker 2: appear that she was lying or murdering these children. So
46:12
Speaker 2: this innocent woman, you know, served time for something that
46:16
Speaker 2: was completely out of her control. But our our our
46:20
Speaker 2: brains are resistant to this at the moment. They won't
46:23
Speaker 2: entertain the biological component that underlies aggression and heinous acts.
46:30
Speaker 2: And I think that's that's we need to We need
46:33
Speaker 2: a paradigm shift there in order to get people to
46:36
Speaker 2: reorient how we handle.
46:40
Speaker 4: Uh.
46:40
Speaker 2: You know, criminal behavior because our current system has you know,
46:46
Speaker 2: is proving to be really insufficient.
46:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was actually an Australian lighty. Yeah, oh I'm
46:53
Speaker 1: sorry I mixed it up, but everything was right, just
46:57
Speaker 1: the country. But yeah, that was an Australian lighty and
47:00
Speaker 1: or if not, an identical case. But and I think
47:03
Speaker 1: one of the things Bill is is that we look
47:07
Speaker 1: at well, yeah, we look at things that we don't
47:11
Speaker 1: truly understand because we can't understand that. You know, we
47:17
Speaker 1: can't know and understand everything, right, but we look through
47:20
Speaker 1: our lens and we can't really distinguish between our reality
47:28
Speaker 1: and the reality, you know, which is when I go, no,
47:32
Speaker 1: that's offensive, that is offensive, that is bad, that is this,
47:35
Speaker 1: that is that, And for somebody else looking through their
47:38
Speaker 1: window at the same thing, it's not offensive at all.
47:40
Speaker 1: It's funny. And for somebody looking through their window, it's
47:43
Speaker 1: curious and interesting and fascinating and they want to lean
47:46
Speaker 1: in and learn more. For somebody else, that's confusing, right,
47:51
Speaker 1: But I think, you know, we we navigate life. This
47:55
Speaker 1: is part of my passion project and part of my PhD.
47:58
Speaker 1: But you know, there's a thing in psychology called false
48:02
Speaker 1: consensus effect and it essentially speaks to the fact that
48:06
Speaker 1: we think that other people think like us.
48:09
Speaker 4: Right, Okay, we operate, certainly do yeah, we operate unconsciously
48:14
Speaker 4: on the on the assumption that, for example, my intention
48:19
Speaker 4: when I'm talking to you will be your experience, right.
48:24
Speaker 1: And so, you know, realizing that the only person in
48:28
Speaker 1: my reality is me. We might be in the as
48:30
Speaker 1: I've said many times on this show, you were in
48:33
Speaker 1: this You and I are in the same conversation at
48:35
Speaker 1: the same time, but we're not in the same experience,
48:40
Speaker 1: not better or worse, just different my experience, your experience.
48:43
Speaker 1: And then and then you think about the thousands of
48:45
Speaker 1: people who listen to this. You know, when we talked
48:48
Speaker 1: about pedophilia, some people might have turned off because that's
48:51
Speaker 1: disgusting and horrible and how dare you bring it up?
48:54
Speaker 1: And other people might have gone, well, this makes me uncomfortable,
48:57
Speaker 1: but that's actually interesting, and somebody else might have had
49:01
Speaker 1: a different response. And it's not about the stimulus but
49:04
Speaker 1: rather our response. But I think we spend so much
49:07
Speaker 1: time going through life not recognizing the window through which
49:11
Speaker 1: we view the world, but rather thinking that is the world. No, dude,
49:15
Speaker 1: that's not the world. That's your version.
49:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that goes back to our brain shortcuts, right
49:22
Speaker 2: where we're trying to generalize and we think everyone thinks
49:26
Speaker 2: just as we do. But you're exactly right. Our interpretation
49:30
Speaker 2: of anything is informed by our previous experiences, which for
49:35
Speaker 2: every person is different. So, yeah, I think you bring
49:38
Speaker 2: up a really good point. We have to be a
49:40
Speaker 2: lot more sensitive when we engage in dialogues or encounter
49:44
Speaker 2: something that you know, we might disagree with at first,
49:48
Speaker 2: and try to figure out why, you know, go back
49:51
Speaker 2: to know thyself, right, Yeah, figure out why the two
49:55
Speaker 2: of you have such different opinions. I think that would
49:57
Speaker 2: be a much more fun and productive discussion than just
50:01
Speaker 2: either calling each other names or ignoring one another.
50:06
Speaker 1: So let's jump back to your book a little bit.
50:09
Speaker 1: And this might be a dumb question, so rephrase the
50:11
Speaker 1: question to make it better if it's done. But how
50:14
Speaker 1: much of the way that I am, the way that
50:18
Speaker 1: I think, the way that I behave, the way that
50:20
Speaker 1: I show up in the world, my worldview, the way
50:25
Speaker 1: my biology and physiology works. How much of that is predetermined?
50:29
Speaker 1: And how much is me determined?
50:32
Speaker 2: Ah, well, that's a million dollar question. We may need
50:35
Speaker 2: a full another episode to get to the bottom of
50:38
Speaker 2: that one. But what this kind of gets into are
50:42
Speaker 2: a number of interesting things, the first of which, what
50:46
Speaker 2: do you mean by me? What do you mean by self? This?
50:51
Speaker 2: You're talking like there's some kind of separate entity inside
50:56
Speaker 2: of the body of Craig Harper that is more or
51:00
Speaker 2: less static.
51:02
Speaker 1: I love it. Now we're going down a philosophical yeah, yeah, yeah,
51:08
Speaker 1: But then we go, okay, so where does my body
51:11
Speaker 1: finish and where do I start? Or am like, because
51:15
Speaker 1: clearly I'm more than a body, but without a body,
51:21
Speaker 1: I'm not right. So psychological, you know, there's my brain
51:26
Speaker 1: and there's my mind. Is my mind even a thing?
51:29
Speaker 1: Or is thought just a byproduct of you know, consciousness
51:33
Speaker 1: arising from the brain, and is the mind just a
51:35
Speaker 1: human construct?
51:36
Speaker 2: Right?
51:37
Speaker 1: This whole you know, that's that Socrates know thyself. It's like, yeah,
51:42
Speaker 1: good luck, good luck.
51:45
Speaker 2: Here we are two thousand years later, still trying to
51:48
Speaker 2: learn about ourselves, and we still have a long way
51:51
Speaker 2: to go. But I love these sorts of you know,
51:54
Speaker 2: philosophical questions where biology starts to blend into these areas
51:59
Speaker 2: that just kind of blow the mind. And I love
52:02
Speaker 2: thinking about these sorts of things. And having these conversations
52:05
Speaker 2: because you know, like we said on the last program,
52:07
Speaker 2: I'm a lifelong learner. I was just floored when I
52:12
Speaker 2: was starting to do research for Pleas to meet Me
52:15
Speaker 2: that some philosophers and even neuroscientists think that the self
52:21
Speaker 2: is a total illusion. You know, they don't think that
52:23
Speaker 2: this really exists. And if you go back and study Buddhism,
52:28
Speaker 2: they figured this out more than two thousand years ago.
52:32
Speaker 2: The entity that we refer to as the self is
52:34
Speaker 2: a complete farce. You know, the past and the future
52:38
Speaker 2: do not exist. The only thing that exists is the moment.
52:42
Speaker 2: And when they say is that, you know, from the
52:47
Speaker 2: scientific perspective, I mean what we now currently view when
52:52
Speaker 2: we think of the self is that it's not a
52:54
Speaker 2: static entity. It's actually constantly changing. So instead of having
52:58
Speaker 2: it to be a thing, we think of the self
53:00
Speaker 2: as more of a process. It is a biochemical reaction
53:04
Speaker 2: that is constantly running. Okay, you can compare it to
53:08
Speaker 2: maybe like a computer program as well, but what you
53:12
Speaker 2: call yourself is never the same moment to moment, So
53:17
Speaker 2: that to me, I think that's just a really mind
53:20
Speaker 2: blowing concept. And all sorts of things can accept the self.
53:24
Speaker 2: You talked about the brain, you know that is obviously
53:26
Speaker 2: the seat of the self. No one thinks that the
53:29
Speaker 2: spleen gives rise to the self, but we certainly know
53:33
Speaker 2: that the brain gives rise to thought and the mind
53:36
Speaker 2: and this ability to make decisions, to deliberate, to think
53:39
Speaker 2: about things. But then you get people like the neuroscientist
53:44
Speaker 2: Robert Sipalski who writes this book called Determined, which is
53:49
Speaker 2: an argument against free will, and his main thesis wonderful book,
53:54
Speaker 2: by the way, I think everyone should read it. The
53:57
Speaker 2: main thesis is very similar to what I started to
54:00
Speaker 2: conclude in the process of writing Please to Meet Me,
54:04
Speaker 2: is that if you consider free will as like a circle,
54:09
Speaker 2: you know, the more you learn about our biology and
54:11
Speaker 2: how it's connected to our actions, that circle is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking,
54:15
Speaker 2: way way down. And he takes the position that it's
54:19
Speaker 2: there's no such thing as free will at all. Others
54:22
Speaker 2: take a little more you know, conservative position and say, yeah,
54:27
Speaker 2: there's free will, but not as much as we thought,
54:30
Speaker 2: and yeah, it's a really really interesting concept. And if
54:35
Speaker 2: we don't have free will, but we certainly feel like
54:37
Speaker 2: we do, what does that mean for jurisprudence and morality
54:42
Speaker 2: and things of that nature as well, big, big philosophical questions.
54:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. I also think a little bit
54:49
Speaker 1: about the idea of you know, open mindedness and objectivity.
54:55
Speaker 1: One of the questions I ask audience is when I
54:57
Speaker 1: do a corporate gig, when we're opening the door on
55:00
Speaker 1: thinking about thinking, you know, metacognition and theory of mind
55:04
Speaker 1: and all of these kind of how do we see
55:06
Speaker 1: the world and why do we see the world that way?
55:08
Speaker 1: And does it service or sabotage us? Is this idea
55:11
Speaker 1: of open mindedness? And I say, put up your hand
55:14
Speaker 1: if you consider yourself to be as a real open
55:18
Speaker 1: minded and objective And all the hands go up, and
55:21
Speaker 1: then I go, well, none of you are, And then
55:23
Speaker 1: they all get a little bit pissed off at me.
55:26
Speaker 1: And then like, do you have pre existing beliefs and
55:30
Speaker 1: ideas and values and thoughts and experiences, and well, then
55:34
Speaker 1: you're not objective, Like your thinking is formed or informed
55:39
Speaker 1: by you know, if not influenced. So the idea of
55:42
Speaker 1: having this kind of psychological or cognitive clean slate maybe
55:49
Speaker 1: about something you've never encountered before, or but yeah, it's
55:54
Speaker 1: like it feels good to say I'm really open minded,
55:57
Speaker 1: But even me who talks about all this stuff, I
56:00
Speaker 1: know I'm not truly open minded because I already have
56:04
Speaker 1: pre existing stuff. That is the window through which I
56:07
Speaker 1: view the world.
56:07
Speaker 2: Right, right, and that window through which you view view
56:11
Speaker 2: to the world is going to dictate or influence how
56:14
Speaker 2: you act in the future. So yeah, it not only
56:18
Speaker 2: not only explains how Craig got to be Craig, but
56:23
Speaker 2: it explains pretty much what Craig's going to do next,
56:26
Speaker 2: you know. So, and that gets back to the free
56:29
Speaker 2: will argument that there's nothing magical or supernatural inside of
56:34
Speaker 2: us that can give rise to an independent to an
56:39
Speaker 2: action that's independent of biology. Biology is always going to
56:44
Speaker 2: drive the action. The impulse is going to come from neurons.
56:47
Speaker 2: You know, nothing supernatural about it. And we know this
56:51
Speaker 2: because if we stimulate neurons, they will produce certain responses.
56:56
Speaker 2: If we damage a part of the brain, they can
56:58
Speaker 2: produce certain responses. So everything that gives rise to who
57:03
Speaker 2: we are originates in the brain, and everything in the
57:06
Speaker 2: brain originates from experience, and of course genetics as well.
57:13
Speaker 2: All that's outside of our control. We can't control our genes.
57:16
Speaker 2: We can't control our experiences. You might argue to some
57:18
Speaker 2: degree that you can put yourself in position, you know,
57:22
Speaker 2: to manifest certain experiences. Okay, but you also have to
57:28
Speaker 2: realize that you've had experiences that are going to influence
57:32
Speaker 2: the type of experience you want to have next. And
57:35
Speaker 2: that's where you get into this vicious cycle of there
57:39
Speaker 2: can't possibly be free.
57:40
Speaker 1: Will m It's that, you know, you spoke about Buddhism before.
57:48
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, the observer of your thoughts and
57:50
Speaker 1: being aware of like I think awareness, consciousness, if it's possible,
57:57
Speaker 1: starts with the recognition of your lack of awareness. You know.
58:01
Speaker 1: It's like realizing how unaware I am might ironically be
58:06
Speaker 1: the start of greater awareness you know where you.
58:10
Speaker 2: Can that's pretty deep. Yeah, yeah, I like that. I
58:13
Speaker 2: like that a lot. And I also just like the
58:17
Speaker 2: Buddhists take on how how to live with this sort
58:20
Speaker 2: of you know, these these rather earth shattering ideas about
58:25
Speaker 2: the nature of our self. They use that as a
58:31
Speaker 2: notion to destroy the ego. You know, if you don't
58:34
Speaker 2: have a self, you should not have an ego, and
58:37
Speaker 2: it eliminates your need for attachments to things, to material things,
58:41
Speaker 2: and desires as well. You know, one of the four
58:44
Speaker 2: Noble truths is that there is suffering in the world.
58:48
Speaker 2: These are the Buddhist noble truths. They're suffering. The origin
58:52
Speaker 2: of that suffering is desire. The third noble truth is,
58:55
Speaker 2: if you quench desire, you can quench suffering, and then,
59:00
Speaker 2: you know, the path to enlightenment. Are tools that people
59:05
Speaker 2: can use in order to control desires and then minimize
59:11
Speaker 2: suffering as a result. And what I take away from
59:14
Speaker 2: that whole discussion in addition, is that don't just eliminate
59:19
Speaker 2: suffering in your own world. You know, we put ourselves
59:22
Speaker 2: through a lot of misery that we quite frankly don't
59:25
Speaker 2: need to do, you know, because we're animals and we
59:28
Speaker 2: evolved in a landscape that makes us concerned about things
59:32
Speaker 2: that we don't need to worry about anymore in this
59:35
Speaker 2: modern world. But our brain is wired, you know, to
59:39
Speaker 2: be living in the past. And maybe on the next
59:41
Speaker 2: episode we can talk about those sorts of evolutionary mismasters
59:45
Speaker 2: that makes people miserable in this world of plenty that
59:48
Speaker 2: we should be enjoying, but most people are too stressed
59:52
Speaker 2: out to enjoy it. But what the what I think
59:56
Speaker 2: we can really take away from the buddhists desire to
1:00:00
Speaker 2: minimize suffering is to extend that to the whole world.
1:00:04
Speaker 2: You know, anytime you can minimize suffering in anybody's life,
1:00:08
Speaker 2: you're making a positive contribution to the world. And scientific
1:00:11
Speaker 2: studies show that when you're altruistic like that, it confers
1:00:16
Speaker 2: a multitude of health benefits, which I think is just
1:00:21
Speaker 2: a it's a beautiful thing.
1:00:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. I call that having a purpose bigger than yourself, you.
1:00:26
Speaker 2: Know exactly, and science backs it up in terms of
1:00:31
Speaker 2: being good for both physical and mental health.
1:00:35
Speaker 1: All right, So that my last question is a red
1:00:37
Speaker 1: herring that you are not prepared for. It's not even
1:00:40
Speaker 1: a question. I'm just going to give you a name,
1:00:43
Speaker 1: and I just want you to riff for one minute
1:00:46
Speaker 1: and tell me your thoughts. Joe Biden, what's going on?
1:00:51
Speaker 2: Joe Biden, presidential candidate for the United States who is
1:00:56
Speaker 2: running against Donald Trump. So, in the past three and
1:01:01
Speaker 2: a half years, I think Joe Biden has done a
1:01:04
Speaker 2: really remarkable job helping this country emerge out of the
1:01:08
Speaker 2: wreckage that was the COVID pandemic. We all knew it
1:01:13
Speaker 2: was going to be a challenge. Whoever was going to
1:01:15
Speaker 2: be at the HELM. So I think he's done a
1:01:18
Speaker 2: really good job. He's certainly been pro science. He's been
1:01:22
Speaker 2: encouraging a lot of really good economic principles. The economy
1:01:27
Speaker 2: really went south, you know, because of the pandemic, and
1:01:30
Speaker 2: that wasn't his fault. That started earlier. But what I
1:01:33
Speaker 2: like about Joe Biden is that he is intellectually curious
1:01:37
Speaker 2: and he's rather humble. He will seek out the opinion
1:01:41
Speaker 2: of experts. Okay, he won't follow his gut or his intuition.
1:01:46
Speaker 2: He will listen to expert opinion and formulate a policy
1:01:50
Speaker 2: based on that. I think that is one of his
1:01:52
Speaker 2: strong suits, and that's a matter of character that I
1:01:56
Speaker 2: would prefer to see in leadership.
1:01:59
Speaker 1: Wow, I love that. I love that he's There's been
1:02:05
Speaker 1: a few question marks about his cognitive capacity at the moment.
1:02:09
Speaker 1: Is that just paople cherry picking moments in time or
1:02:13
Speaker 1: do you think he's okay or he's in trouble. I mean,
1:02:17
Speaker 1: you don't know, and I don't know, But what are
1:02:19
Speaker 1: your thoughts?
1:02:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I certainly don't have a connection with them. If
1:02:24
Speaker 2: you look at liberal news channels, you know, you won't
1:02:29
Speaker 2: see that much. But if you follow a conservative social
1:02:33
Speaker 2: media outlet or watch their news, all you will see
1:02:36
Speaker 2: are his mistakes and screw ups. And of course, whenever
1:02:40
Speaker 2: you're out there in the public eye, you're going to
1:02:42
Speaker 2: be making them. But my god, Craig, what you want
1:02:47
Speaker 2: to see on the conservative channel is a Donald Trump
1:02:51
Speaker 2: rally where he just starts rambling worse than I ever
1:02:55
Speaker 2: do about god knows what. And I can't honestly heads
1:03:00
Speaker 2: or tails out of this. And when I see people
1:03:02
Speaker 2: nodding along, I'm like, what the hell is going through
1:03:05
Speaker 2: your brain right now? This man does not make any
1:03:07
Speaker 2: sense at all. And that's not media spin, you know.
1:03:11
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm watching that in context. It doesn't make
1:03:15
Speaker 2: any sense. Yeah, and I've listened to Joe Biden, and yes,
1:03:18
Speaker 2: of course he's going to make some slip ups and mistakes.
1:03:21
Speaker 2: Any public speaker will, but it's I don't view it
1:03:26
Speaker 2: as the magnitude of his competitor.
1:03:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, I love chatting with you. It's the
1:03:33
Speaker 1: easiest gig of my month and maybe the most enjoyable.
1:03:37
Speaker 1: So the book, the book we're talking about today is
1:03:41
Speaker 1: called Please to Meet Me jeans Germs and the Curious
1:03:44
Speaker 1: Forces that make us who we are doctor Bill Sullivan, PhD.
1:03:48
Speaker 1: I've probably asked you this is this on audio? This book?
1:03:52
Speaker 1: Yes it is I and I said I would do
1:03:56
Speaker 1: this before full disclosure and transparency. I didn't do it.
1:03:59
Speaker 1: As soon as I do. I've got my phone here,
1:04:01
Speaker 1: I'm going to jump off and get on Audible and
1:04:04
Speaker 1: buy it right now, and I'm going to listen to
1:04:07
Speaker 1: it between now and our next chat.
1:04:09
Speaker 2: So I'm.
1:04:11
Speaker 1: I'm very excited actually, So we'll say goodbye fair but
1:04:15
Speaker 1: once again, appreciate you. Thanks so much for your time.
1:04:18
Speaker 2: Bill, always a pleasure create It's good to see you.