Latest / Drive with John Perlman / The tree-loving Georgian billionaire, the Pretoria landscaper and the SA baobab export row

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The tree-loving Georgian billionaire, the Pretoria landscaper and the SA baobab export row · Drive with John Perlman

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You're with John Perlman on 702. Well, let's turn now
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: to a story that I must have caught my attention
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: quite a few weeks back when it first broke. There
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: is an investigation going on. There's an issue. Five large
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: baobab trees are lying in a parking lot in a
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: warehouse in Mobeni in Egypt. And this is because the
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: person who was exporting them has been challenged in this
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: endeavor by the authorities saying that this is a breach
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: of the law. It's a very, very worrying thing indeed.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: But it's intriguing as well. I had no idea. that
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  Speaker 1: there was any kind of strict control over the export
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: of baobabs. Now, I'm sure many of you know what
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: they look like if you've seen them. I was going
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: to say in the flesh. I'm not sure what the
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: correct term would be. But if you've stood in front
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: of a baobab or driven through an area where they
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: are in numbers, they are truly magnificent trees. And for
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  Speaker 1: that reason, there's somebody in Georgia who wanted to buy
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: five and buy five of the best specimens. We understand it.
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  Speaker 1: So what's going on here? And why is the law
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  Speaker 1: so strict in this regard? Professor Michael Kidd is an
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  Speaker 1: environmental law expert at the University of KwaZulu-Natal and joins
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  Speaker 1: us now. Prof, welcome and thanks for giving us your time.
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  Speaker 1: Baobabs are specially protected species, as I read, under the
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  Speaker 1: National Forests Act. First of all, why? And secondly, what
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  Speaker 1: are the implications of that? Good afternoon to you.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Good afternoon, John. Um, So they're just protected, not specially protected.
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  Speaker 2: But the effect of that, so maybe taking a step back,
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  Speaker 2: the minister can declare any particular tree or groups of
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: trees or trees belonging to a particular species as protected.
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  Speaker 2: So what we're dealing with here would be the species
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  Speaker 2: rather than a particular tree. And the effect of that
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: is that there are a number of activities then that
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: are prohibited without a license. So what the Act says
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  Speaker 2: in Section 15, so this is the National Forest Act,
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  Speaker 2: which is the applicable legislation here, that no person may cut, disturb,
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  Speaker 2: damage or destroy any protected tree or possess, collect, remove, transport, export, purchase, sell, donate,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: or in any other manner acquire or dispose of any
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: protected tree without a license. So that's the relevant legislative
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  Speaker 2: provisions that are relevant here. Now, obviously, this would only
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  Speaker 2: apply in relation to trees that have been declared to
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: be protected trees. And the Bay of Bab is on
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  Speaker 2: that list. In fact, it's the first tree on the
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: list of protected trees in terms of that particular government notice.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's there because of alphabetical privilege,
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  Speaker 1: but let me ask you this, Prof. I mean, would
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: a tree be protected because they are, you know, endangered,
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  Speaker 1: which I understand baobabs are not? Or are they protected because,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, all trees play crucial roles in, a larger ecosystem,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: but is it to protect the environment from the consequences
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  Speaker 1: of its removal? And I ask that because it may
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: well depend where the trees were actually dug up from. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm not entirely sure the basis on which the
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: trees would be placed on this list.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Because the Baobab, there's other legislation that deals with protected
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  Speaker 2: species as well. That's the Biodiversity Act. And the Baobab's
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: not listed under that act. So what that would suggest
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  Speaker 2: is that the Baobab is not under any particular threat.
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  Speaker 2: If it were under a threat, it would probably be
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  Speaker 2: listed under that act. It's only listed under the National
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Forest Act. So I'm not entirely sure what the thought
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  Speaker 2: processes would be in relation to developing that list. It
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  Speaker 2: might be just that it's a particularly iconic tree. And
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  Speaker 2: for that reason, that there shouldn't be a kind of
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  Speaker 2: willy-nilly removal of baobabs from the wild. It might be
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  Speaker 2: ultimately to prevent a situation where they do become under threat.
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  Speaker 2: Although that's also governed by that other act. So they're
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  Speaker 2: only listed in terms of the National Forest Act, not
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  Speaker 2: in terms of legislation that focuses on threats to survival.
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  Speaker 1: If you are allowed to export these trees, provided you
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  Speaker 1: comply with getting a license, and there would presumably be
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  Speaker 1: other paperwork, do you have any sense of why this
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  Speaker 1: thing has become as controversial as it has? I mean,
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  Speaker 1: if licenses are available, presumably a license system exists because
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  Speaker 1: there's a reasonable expectation that people would apply for the
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  Speaker 1: licenses and then act in either their scientific or commercial
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  Speaker 1: interest favorably. based on why they wanted the license in
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  Speaker 1: the first place. I'm not quite sure why this has
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  Speaker 1: got so tangled. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: You know, that does seem to be a reasonable take
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  Speaker 2: on it. You know, on the basis of the facts
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  Speaker 2: of which I'm aware, which are really only the facts
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  Speaker 2: in Tony Carney's article that appeared in the Daily Maverick,
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  Speaker 2: you know, it's not entirely sure where, for example, these
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  Speaker 2: cheese came from other than, you know, certain parts of
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  Speaker 2: the country. You know, were they removed from... private land
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  Speaker 2: was the owner involved in allowing the removal, et cetera,
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  Speaker 2: et cetera. So, I mean, all of those considerations would
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  Speaker 2: probably be relevant in relation to whether a license were
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  Speaker 2: granted or not. I mean, I personally am not familiar
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  Speaker 2: with licenses or even the licensing system in relation to
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: protected trees. So, you know, I'm not entirely sure what
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  Speaker 2: the relevant factors would be that would be taken into
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  Speaker 2: account and for that matter, how easy it is to
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  Speaker 2: get a license for this. I think if one looks
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  Speaker 2: at what the Act also provides for is exemptions. And
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  Speaker 2: the Act does allow, for example, for propagated trees on
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  Speaker 2: these lists to be sold, et cetera, et cetera, without
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  Speaker 2: a license. So if you've got little baobabs in a pot,
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  Speaker 2: for example, in a nursery, you don't need a license
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  Speaker 2: in order to you know, to be able to purchase
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  Speaker 2: those or probably even to export them. It's just, you know,
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  Speaker 2: these are obviously fully grown. Well, not fully grown, but
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  Speaker 2: they are mature trees on the basis of the photographs
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  Speaker 2: that I saw.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the small baobabs, would you call them
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  Speaker 1: bonsai babs or something? It's a fascinating story. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: all the issues that Authorities have to deal with, and
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  Speaker 1: now they're dealing with, five baobab trees that are currently
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  Speaker 1: lying in a warehouse in Itagwini because there's a huge
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  Speaker 1: legal dispute around them. Thank you. Very interesting. Professor Michael
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  Speaker 1: Kidd is an environmental law expert at the University of KwaZulu-Natal.