Latest / Thick No More / You Were Never Broken | Carrie Grant MBE on Autism, Education & Finding Hope

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You Were Never Broken | Carrie Grant MBE on Autism, Education & Finding Hope · Thick No More

0:02
Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Thick No
0:06
more. This is a really, really special
0:10
podcast for me. This is the one I've been
0:11
looking forward to the most for quite some time now.
0:15
I was a little bit cheeky. I reached out to this amazing
0:18
person on Instagram, said, hey, listen, I don't suppose by any
0:22
chance you'd be prepared to hop on my podcast and just tell
0:27
everybody what you do so well on Instagram.
0:31
And she kindly said, yeah, so I'm I'm the luckiest person and
0:34
we are the luckiest people in the world.
0:36
So we constantly try and break labels on this podcast.
0:39
We've all been called names in the past.
0:42
And I'm trying to change that conversation around
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conversations about ADHD, autism, dyslexia,
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neurodiversity, and trying to say, look, it was never our
0:50
weakness. So today's guest has spent her
0:54
lifetime how people could find their voice.
0:57
Most of the people will know where I guess best look for
1:00
television presenting such programs such as like things
1:03
like Fame Academy, Pop Idol, countless TV productions.
1:07
But what really caught my over the last few years, the last
1:10
decade, I think Carrie has become something even more
1:13
important. I guess a powerful advocate for
1:16
all of us neuro divergent people and all the families out there.
1:20
So many strings to a bow, an author, a speaker, what else
1:24
have we got? A leadership coach, a campaigner
1:27
course, an MBE. So, Carrie Grant, thank you so
1:32
much for joining us on Thick No More.
1:34
I am so, so proud to have you. Oh.
1:37
Jay, thank you for having me and it's great to be here.
1:41
Now it's good. So listen, I, I hope you
1:44
remember when we first spoke, I start the same question.
1:49
I ask everyone the same question.
1:50
It should be good for you to be fair.
1:53
So just for today only, I have this ability to make music.
1:57
Every time you do a door opens for you, you're going to have a
2:00
tune that plays. Every time that door flings
2:03
open, tell us what the song is and why.
2:06
So what I think this is really difficult.
2:09
I think we could do the entire podcast, just about one song,
2:12
right? For me, my entire life has been
2:15
music, you know, starting with dancing to it, then singing to
2:19
it, then coaching it. And and so, you know, I'm making
2:23
records and being around people making records.
2:25
So I, I think it's a very hard ask and I think I would probably
2:30
have a different tune on every door.
2:31
But seeing as you're making me have to be really, you're asking
2:35
me to write within the lines. Jay, this is not.
2:37
You've got to go right down here.
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Listen and I'll tell you, people have actually met me and say
2:41
this has started happening. Now when I open the door, I
2:44
start humming a tune in my head. So be prepared.
2:47
It's going to end up an earworm, isn't it?
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I'm going to absolutely hate it. OK, so my song is be optimistic.
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It's optimistic. OK, that's I, I kind of get
3:04
that. Yeah, I get that.
3:08
Yeah. Listening, it's already singing
3:10
here, you know, don't. I haven't got to pay for this,
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by the way, Every time. Every time I see a post from you
3:21
on Instagram, like that's the feeling I always get from you.
3:26
Like you can be talking about and I don't myself.
3:29
We talk about stuff, the pair of us and all of our community, all
3:32
the problems that we're seeing at the moment.
3:35
But I think you are you always leave people with on your posts.
3:38
Is that optimism that OK, listen, you know, we'll get
3:42
there. We'll get there, you know, So I
3:44
think that's a good tune for you.
3:45
Can't. Stop us.
3:47
Send parents with the best, right?
3:49
Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, hope is such a big
3:54
thing for me. But hope is earned.
3:57
You can't just be gifted hope. Hope is not something.
4:00
I mean, some people are born hopeful, right?
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So I guess that that could be true.
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But I think that real hope with depth comes from having walked
4:09
some really deep valleys and and making choices, making choices
4:15
in the darkest, most difficult spaces to keep believing, to
4:21
keep hoping, to keep thinking there must be better than this.
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Come on, we need to fight for better.
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So that's with everything, you know, that that's always the aim
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is like, how do we even in those, you know, and I'm talking
4:35
about dark, dark times, you know, just holding on.
4:38
It's the one tiny cell. There's still a cell of hope
4:41
happening. Yeah, no, totally.
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And you're right. You have to have those paths
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that we all go on. You know, at times they can
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really test you and you do have to have that, that tiny bit of
4:54
light at the end of the tunnel just to just to claw on to
4:57
because it does. I'm not saying it gets what's
5:00
the word, I'm looking for my dyslexic brain.
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It's it's not easier. It's never really easier, but it
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just kind of you find a way, right?
5:08
You find a way of managing and then you read you like you speak
5:13
to people like yourselves and all the people that I speak to
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you come across people and you realize actually I'm not on this
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journey on my own. There are hundreds of thousands
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of us and we're all on that same path.
5:24
You know, see you're dead right. Hope is hope is a is a is a
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really important word. I think one of the things like
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for me, obviously when I reached out to you, I'll be honest,
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hands in the air. I didn't even expect you to
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answer. So and I thought, if I do get an
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answer, it'd probably be from one of these agencies going,
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hey, Carrie's really busy right now, but drop us a line.
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And then so I thought, well, and when you replied, I thought, my
5:48
God, and I didn't know what to say after that.
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So look, I know who you are, right?
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I've, I've seen you on telly. I've seen all your Instagrams
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and millions of people know you are, let's be honest.
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But I guess question I really love to ask you is when the
6:05
cameras are off gone now? When the TV cameras off, who,
6:09
who are you when they're switched off behind those doors?
6:12
Tell us about Carrie. Do you know what?
6:14
I think I was really fortunate in that having, you know, I left
6:18
school at 15 back in the early 80s and for much of my career it
6:24
was under the radar. I worked and worked, but never
6:27
not worked, you know, as a dancer, then a singer, working
6:30
with lots of artists and stuff. But the point at which the
6:33
public became really aware of me was during Fame Academy and it
6:38
was a reality television show. And not only was it a reality
6:41
television show, you could press the red button and you could
6:45
watch me coaching people and talking to people like for 8
6:48
hours straight. So I think I was really
6:51
fortunate that in a way, I didn't come into the industry or
6:57
didn't come into the public's awareness as like, you know, I'm
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not a star up there on a pedestal that, you know, has had
7:05
this kind of other as it were. I feel like I came into the
7:08
industry of everyone knew what I was like.
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I was like, I love my students and I'll fight for them and I'll
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tell them off and I'll, you know, just like being real and
7:17
believing in my students. And when they, you know, when
7:21
they felt disappointed with their performance, I did too.
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So you saw the real thing. You saw like and went for me
7:28
because I was a judge as well as a coach on, on Fame Academy.
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You know, for me, it was always important to to to be coach.
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But also when you're a judge, it's not about deconstructing a
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person. It's always been about what can
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I say that is going to help you next week to get better at what
7:47
you do. And so I think in a way, even
7:51
though I was kind of seen as quite a hard judge, I was seen
7:54
as someone who was reliable in probably similar to young good
7:57
men in strictly in that way. Like I knew the technique and I
8:01
wasn't just playing for the laughs or the bad stuff, but
8:04
actually really giving you good critique so that you could go
8:08
away and learn something. So for me, who am I?
8:11
I'm that person that will fight for like for other people.
8:15
I'm, you know, that's my my autism, that that need for
8:18
justice, particularly when I see other people in pain.
8:21
Oh my gosh, I feel it so strongly.
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And I think that for many years I felt like you're not allowed
8:27
to to be like that. That's that's not allowed.
8:29
It's like the thick no more thing really relates because
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it's like you're not allowed to be something that is essentially
8:34
you. And then when you find out
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autistic trait, there is a part of you that once.
8:38
Well, I want to work against it then rather than leaning into it
8:41
now I'm just I leaning into it. Yeah, I want justice.
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I want to. See fair, that comes across as
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well. I want to see people not offered
8:50
like who wouldn't want that? That seems mad to want something
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else. So that's, that's me that the me
8:57
as outside of the camera is, I think I have two modes really.
9:01
And I and I think in through an autism lens, we might call them
9:05
masking, but I don't for me, they're not masking, which is
9:08
I'm really enthusiastic about life.
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I love people, I love friends. You know, right now in my house,
9:15
because it's a sunny day, people are arriving to sit in the
9:17
garden and the house will just be it's like a community centre.
9:21
I love it. 7:00 tonight, if people haven't gone, I will go
9:26
out and to the gun and go. Night guys.
9:28
I'm off to bed and then I just leave and then I'm on my own and
9:33
I need my space. Yeah, yeah.
9:37
So I'm kind of either or so I can be very, very quiet, book
9:41
bookish, doing tapestries and watching true crime and being my
9:44
best autistic self or I'm or deeply social.
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I kind of both of those things same time.
9:52
You talked about leaving school in the 80s.
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I mean, I'm a 70s kid. I'll have school in 80, 88.
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I think I comment about 85. I don't know.
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But but for me, school was horrific.
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I mean, I told you my story when I reached out to you.
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What was school like for you? What was school years like for
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you? Well, it's so interesting
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because before I got my my autism, my autism diagnosis was
10:14
two years ago and half now. And I think with that diagnosis,
10:20
I began to look back at those school years and suddenly they
10:25
made sense, the things that didn't make sense.
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So at school I was quite bright. I was always the top stream.
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But I think I'm quite a slow learner and I think that's to do
10:40
with how I learn long term memory, everything to long term.
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So it takes longer. I watched David, my husband who
10:49
is properly ADHD and David will just look at something and know
10:53
it and and you think, how did you just know that so quickly?
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But then if you ask him in 10 minutes, he hasn't got a clue
10:59
what it's. Like something distracted,
11:01
right? Exactly.
11:02
Yeah, unless it's like scenario, unless it's like football and
11:05
cricket scores from the 1970s, in which case you'll still be
11:08
able to tell you all of them. But and music stuff because
11:11
he's, I'm interested in those things, but stuff that's not
11:14
needed, he's got like a perfect editing suite in his head that
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just gets rid of that stuff. Whereas for me, I'm a little bit
11:19
slower and like this now, I think now I think, wow, as an
11:26
autistic person, what I see this isn't, this is not a scientific
11:30
fact, is not based on research. This is just my observations of
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the hundreds and hundreds of people that I've worked with and
11:37
lived with in the last, you know, 60 years is that it feels
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to me that the education system is obviously set up for
11:47
neurotypicals. We know that.
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So at 2121, your education is done.
11:52
Education is done. Yeah.
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And then And then why is that echoing like that?
11:58
Are you getting that echo? No.
12:00
OK, so at 21, a neurotypical person's education is done, it's
12:06
finished and and it seems like from then they're on, they just
12:09
go and get a job and live their best life.
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It fills with neurodivergent people.
12:15
Our learning arc is a lot longer.
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So I went, yeah, at 56, I signed up to do a masters in theology
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and and I hadn't studied since I was 15.
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And so and I loved it and I, I moaned the whole way through.
12:33
It was like, I can't do it, this is too hard.
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Everyone's academic. I don't feel academic enough.
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And then I aced it. So how did that happen?
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How this trajectory of neurodivergent people?
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I think that we constantly, I noticed this a lot.
12:46
We're constantly looking forward to developing.
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We all want to move on to get more out of life.
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And I'm not something other people don't, but it's just
12:56
something I have particularly noticed with with neurodivergent
12:59
people. So for me, the education system
13:02
at school, friendships were really problematic.
13:06
I had a lot going on. The clues were there.
13:08
The clues were there. Were there, but then I had a lot
13:10
of trauma going on at home and I think that a lot of the trauma
13:15
that I went through as a child just got everything that
13:19
happened at school just got put into that little box of family
13:23
trauma. And so that's what did it in
13:25
today's in today's world that would be social emotional mental
13:29
health pathway rather than an special educational needs and
13:32
disability pathway, a SEND pathway.
13:35
But mainly I remember things like in my secondary school, the
13:39
head of year arranged for it that I could have the gym, that
13:44
the school hall, the hall during lunch hour so that I could
13:47
dance. And so I was on my own.
13:50
I'd go out of my lunch and then I'd be on my own dancing for an
13:53
hour. And I think, why did I want one?
13:57
Why did I ask for that? I clearly wanted to be on my own
14:00
and needed to be on my own. But that they would have made
14:03
that kind of reasonable adjustment back in the what
14:06
would have been the late 70s was really extraordinary.
14:11
That's that's quite remarkable really.
14:14
It's to someone have kind of, I guess, belief in you way back
14:19
then. Now we talk about accessibility,
14:22
adjustments, inclusion, all of those good things that, that we
14:25
that we need, but back then just didn't exist, right?
14:30
So for someone to kind of see that glimmer maybe.
14:33
Feel like there was more time for more relational teachers.
14:38
Even though it was sit down shut up in many ways I feel like
14:41
there were teachers that really believed in you and all of the
14:44
teach. All the subjects where the
14:46
teacher believed in me, I aced. All the subjects where the
14:49
teacher was horrible, I, I hated and didn't do well in.
14:52
So this tells me something about how important the relationships
14:57
are between teachers and students.
15:00
If a child knows they're believed in, then it makes them.
15:03
Certainly I do. It makes me want to push harder
15:05
and aim higher just so that the teacher will then go, yeah, you
15:09
did even better. Keep going.
15:10
I I really respond to encouragement.
15:14
Yeah, and I totally I was reading an article on Sub Stack
15:19
for the weekend and it's come from from Australia and it's
15:23
it's written by a lady who's had some involvement in the mastery
15:26
schools over there. And it's certainly there.
15:28
And she was kind of explaining about getting away from saying
15:33
to children, students and young adults really it's the belief
15:38
matter. It's instead of sort of going,
15:40
you know, oh, listen, we shouldn't do it like that.
15:42
We should do it like this or no, that's incorrect, that's wrong.
15:46
It's how's it going today? How you feeling today?
15:48
How did you feel about that? How was that for you?
15:51
She's the difference in in that mentally when you leave that
15:56
environment because you just you hold on to it.
15:59
I mean, it's an ADHD and a dyslexic.
16:01
You hold on to every single word you do, you know and but if you.
16:06
Have that how do you feel today and what's going on for you?
16:09
This is speaking straight into our critical thinking, which is
16:13
so important in today's world that we have critical thinking
16:17
that we can look at something and think do I agree with this?
16:19
Why do I feel about this? What do I do I need to act on
16:22
this? Do I need to push it out of my
16:24
way? You know that critical thinking.
16:26
I think I and children are not taught to think critically.
16:30
Just to like 9 up. I feel like we talk about the
16:34
60s and 70s like they were really awful, but I feel like I
16:37
don't. I feel like there were lots of
16:39
individual quirky people in my class.
16:41
They were. I agree.
16:44
I agree. And I've kind of I think I've
16:46
done the same as what you've done like I've reflected this
16:49
whole podcasting over the last two and a bit years.
16:52
It's made me kind of like reflect back and I've kind of
16:56
tried to look at the classroom when I was in the classroom and
17:00
I can visualize other children now that were going through the
17:03
same thing I was going to because and now I remember it,
17:07
but I realized I just parked it, hidden it and locked it away
17:11
because I guess that was my safe, my safe place to be.
17:15
So you do you do realize that? And yeah, I agree with and I
17:18
think the ability in the 70s and 80s being able to play outside
17:24
fresh air sports, you know, all the things you see on TV when
17:29
they do the 80s TV shows like Stranger Things and the sudden
17:33
you see them as a as a group of kids together.
17:35
Those things were important, you know, and, and I think we lose
17:38
that a bit as well. Yeah, I think you're right.
17:41
I think also it so depends, like I said, on what's going on in
17:46
your home life. I think home life was so
17:49
unstable. School to me was like a haven.
17:52
It felt like this feels really secure and very holding.
17:56
And it felt like the teachers, certainly in my infant and
17:59
Junior School, felt very holding.
18:01
They they were a bit like an extra parent, which I definitely
18:05
needed at that at that point. I think we'll, we'll come back
18:10
to teachers and schools definitely because I want to, I
18:13
want to get your thoughts on that a bit later on.
18:15
But because it's important I think for both of us to dig a
18:18
bit deeper into our thoughts on the education settings.
18:22
And yeah, well, I'll come back to that.
18:24
I'll part that one up there. So was was it was was music and
18:30
dance your safe place then you say?
18:32
About an hour, Yeah. I mean from 2 1/2, my mum sent
18:36
me to dance lessons at 2 1/2 and I just remember they, the
18:40
pianist would start playing the piano and I just wanted to do
18:43
ballet and jump and hop and run around the room and I loved
18:48
improvisation. So that was they put on a piece
18:50
of music and they just say dance and everyone would just get up
18:53
and do their own thing and I loved it.
18:56
I just loved it. Music for me was salvation.
19:01
It was the thing that kept me positive.
19:03
It was the thing that spoke into my soul, my very soul.
19:07
Even now, if I listen to music, it touches me in such a deep
19:10
way. And I think very early on that
19:14
probably turned into what about a career as this?
19:16
Because I was like the singing, dancing kid that, you know, my
19:19
mom dragged me out at every family party to sing, you know,
19:22
that kind of thing. You know, I loved, I loved
19:25
nothing more than to be doing that.
19:26
So at 15, I left school and I auditioned for Top of the Pops
19:32
and I became a dancer on Top of the Pops.
19:35
And that was my first job out of school.
19:38
And then I got my first record deal that same year, and then
19:41
the second year out of school, when I was 17, I was signed to a
19:45
different label and did Eurovision.
19:47
And then from there I was ATV presenter.
19:49
So like by the time I was 18, I'd done singing, dancing,
19:52
presenting, made records, been in all the newspapers
19:56
representing my country. And I think all of those things
19:59
were. Just wonderful.
20:01
But they those were then career things and they weren't the kind
20:05
of the raw material of singing and dancing that bit.
20:09
I think I had to rediscover a little bit later just the joy of
20:13
listening to a piece of music or playing a piece of music just
20:17
because not because someone was paying me or not because it was
20:20
a career move, but just because that's what we do.
20:24
Singer sing dances down. I am.
20:27
I went, I went back to my mum's, I don't know, the beginning of
20:32
this year and she's got one of those old massive Trump's full
20:37
of photos and school reports and I was frantically trying to find
20:40
some pictures that I know exist somewhere.
20:42
So music has always been a big thing for me.
20:44
I mean, I have the lyrics to the pash mode on my arm.
20:47
I'm not in a tattoo and lovely Adam and the Ants was always my
20:50
thing. And I clearly remember,
20:52
genuinely. Talking about Adam and the ants
20:54
just before I came onto this podcast.
20:56
No, I used to dress up and put the white paint across my nose
21:02
and that was my that was my get out.
21:04
But I you could you can read like you just saying about
21:07
David. You can read a paragraph to me
21:09
now 50 words and I'd remember two of those words.
21:12
But if you if you said if you play the track to me and gun and
21:16
said, oh, this is this is a tune from I know Tina Turner.
21:19
Have a listen to this. You know, I'd pick all those
21:22
words out and I'd remember all those words and you could ask me
21:24
at 10 weeks later and I could say, Oh yeah, I remember that.
21:26
There's a bit in there about this, but it's funny.
21:29
Music just has this thing that holds on you and can take you
21:32
anywhere you want, can't it? You know?
21:34
We love the neuro diversion brain for just going.
21:37
Sorry not interested in that. Now that interests me.
21:40
Yeah, it's it's bonkers. System that just decides on the
21:46
moment what it wants to keep hold of and what is not
21:48
interested in. I mean, that's of all the stuff
21:51
we we talk about that, you know, that, that certainly ADHD people
21:55
have, you know, like what, what do they call it now where you
21:58
can't make up your mind or you, you're just procrastination, all
22:01
the stuff. Yeah.
22:03
There's so many bits of the ADHD brain that are just yes or no.
22:08
Yeah, it's crazy. So I said, well, I, I had, I
22:11
tell this story often, but I had a gentleman on here and and he
22:14
won't mind me telling this because he told the story
22:16
himself. But he wanted to do great
22:17
things. So he set a Guinness World
22:19
Record for the most triathlons in so many days.
22:23
I think he did 70 and 75 days. But he was telling me prior to
22:26
that he'd had like 60 odd jobs in like, I don't know, six
22:30
months because he just did something and thought, yeah, I
22:32
like this. No, I don't like this anymore.
22:34
Yeah, but this is for me. No, this isn't for me anymore.
22:37
And it is just that it's just instant.
22:39
There's no you can't you try to explain to people.
22:43
I yeah, I'm I'm with you now. I'm listening.
22:47
I'm paying attention. It's gone forgotten what you
22:50
said it just it's crazy, crazy situation.
22:54
So your your, your, your your autism.
22:57
You mentioned you diagnosed few years ago.
23:02
Tell us a bit about take us back to that moment.
23:04
What? What made you, what made you
23:07
decide to go forward and get the diagnosis and what was it like?
23:12
Tell us a bit about that. I think for me, because two of
23:17
my four children were diagnosed with autism and they this was
23:24
during a time where they just been through hell.
23:27
Honestly, they're like all of us parents that have got children
23:31
that are in the school system, We've all been through so much.
23:35
We carry so much. And I have always felt like when
23:39
I'm standing on the outside helping my neurodivergent
23:43
children and then bit by bit, I almost peer reviewed myself.
23:46
Like hang on a minute, there's a lot going on there that's very
23:50
similar to your children. And, and I didn't need to be
23:55
diagnosed. I could have just got
23:56
undiagnosed, but you know, I'm living my best life, but and I
24:01
felt that it was important for my children.
24:04
I thought it was important that they know actually mums just
24:07
like us. And so there was that.
24:11
There was also at the time, because I just, David and I just
24:15
written our book, A Very Modern Family, and I was saying a lot
24:18
about autism. And I really hate this idea
24:21
that, you know, you're speaking about autism, but you're not
24:24
autistic. Like that's not the autistic
24:25
voice. And then I'm thinking now it's
24:27
got to the point where it's really awkward because it kind
24:29
of, it is the autistic voice, but I just can't say that it is
24:32
because I don't know. So those two things were
24:36
probably my main reason really for my children 1st and then for
24:40
the community second. What I didn't imagine was that
24:43
it would have any effect on me. And it did, you know, I then had
24:47
to just like many people that get diagnosed late, you then
24:51
have to go back and just look at your entire life, all of the
24:55
times where you were judged when you shouldn't have been judged,
24:59
all the times when you were put down, all the times where you
25:02
misunderstood something perhaps. And you're like, Oh my gosh,
25:06
that's not good. So all of those, all of that
25:09
composite of positive and negative, you then kind of have
25:13
a period of processing, I suppose, after you're diagnosed
25:17
this. That for me lasted just a couple
25:20
of months, but for some people that lasts a long while.
25:22
I think I probably processed a lot whilst I wasn't diagnosed,
25:26
just raising my. Children, did you, did you, Did
25:30
you repay loads of insulins in your mind as well?
25:32
Did you kind of go back over stuff?
25:34
Oh my, yes, yes, yes, yes. Like so difficult looking at I
25:40
think particularly being judged. I think I've been very judged in
25:45
my life and and yeah, that's hard.
25:49
That's hard. So it.
25:51
Is and it's not talked about enough carry.
25:53
You know that I don't I don't think we talk about all these
25:56
things, but I don't think that aspect of, you know, this whole
26:03
podcast is about labels, right? And let's be honest, when you're
26:06
given that, when you're given that diagnosis or like me,
26:09
you're dyslexic, you I put a post on LinkedIn with a dyslexic
26:13
tattoo across my head, right, because that's kind of you're
26:16
given a label and you've been labeled prior to that I was
26:19
called thick, right? I don't think we talk enough
26:23
about those replay moments afterwards because it can be
26:26
really traumatic, really traumatic.
26:29
It really can, and especially where you're then having to
26:34
forgive people that really said some not nice stuff, Yeah, that
26:40
sucks, doesn't it? And it does.
26:45
Yeah, I think that's that has been really difficult.
26:50
But I think that more than anything, I think the because I
26:56
was diagnosed late, I don't see autism as a label that's
27:02
difficult for me. I'm fabulously autistic, my kids
27:05
are fabulously autistic. So for me, it's a positive
27:09
diagnosis. I've been diagnosed non
27:13
neurotypical and I'm kind of glad about that.
27:17
That works for me. That suits me fine.
27:19
I think there are difficulties and there are positives.
27:24
A label is only a problem if you have a problem with the label.
27:26
And unfortunately, the way that labels are given is that like,
27:30
I'm really sorry to tell you this, but you are that are like,
27:35
why are you like, why are you sorry?
27:37
Here's a leaflet. You know, work yourself out if
27:39
you're lucky if you get a leaflet.
27:41
So I think that for me, I don't, I think autism is amazing.
27:49
I'm really excited to be autistic.
27:52
Yes. It means I've had to square some
27:54
really difficult stuff in my past where I've been
27:57
misunderstood, where I didn't really understand what was going
28:01
on as a child. Sometimes I didn't understand
28:04
contexts, I didn't understand why sometimes kids didn't want
28:09
to play with me at school and stuff.
28:11
And I think I put that down to being I was the only child in my
28:14
class of divorced parents. And, you know, this is like
28:17
today it would mean nothing. But back in the early 70s that
28:20
was a really big deal. And so I think I put all of this
28:24
down to just having a single mum and having all this stuff going
28:28
on at home, my dad being violent or whatever, or other people
28:30
being violent with my mother. And so I, I felt like, oh,
28:34
that's why I feel different. It must be because of that.
28:37
And then to find out actually, it wasn't that you were like
28:40
trying your very hardest and people just people weren't being
28:43
nice, people weren't being inclusive, people were being
28:47
quite horrible. And it's interesting that even
28:50
before my diagnosis, one of the most important kind of patterns
28:54
of my life has been to be inclusive, to say, come round
28:57
out. If nobody else wants to have you
28:59
come round our house, you know, let's build a house.
29:01
You just. Mentioned it.
29:02
Earlier right you. Just mentioned it earlier.
29:04
To really build villages, that's one of the most exciting things
29:07
to do in life for me is building villages to build communities
29:11
because these are the things that give you hope.
29:13
These are the things that keep you alive when you're really in
29:16
those darkest places is your community.
29:18
So and I didn't really have that as a as a child massively
29:22
certainly not a school. So so feeling like you're on the
29:26
outside that that's hard. And I think that autism
29:30
diagnosis kind of showed me I see, I see.
29:33
So even that was it was playing out even when you were little
29:37
that you were, you felt on the outside because you are because
29:40
you are feeling different to all those the ideology of normal
29:44
because normal is an ideology, right?
29:46
Someone somewhere in his this is this is the absolute zenith of
29:50
how you're meant to be. And then we all just obediently
29:53
said, yes, that's the zenith how we're meant to be.
29:56
Like who said that? Can we just like?
29:59
And even you, you talked about education, even the whole
30:02
education thing, you know, we're, we were led to believe
30:04
that this is the start point of education.
30:07
This is the end point of education.
30:09
And there's the straight linear line that you go on.
30:11
That's the way it is, you know, and we all, we all just correct.
30:16
This is. Our education.
30:20
I mean, if you could have drawn a straight line for mine, it
30:23
would have been a miracle if you could have drawn a straight line
30:25
for my education. I'll tell you that now.
30:27
Because he was nowhere administrate.
30:29
But yeah, I mean, I have a question for you to what's your
30:34
opinion on on, you know, do you still think women are getting
30:37
missed with autism diagnosis? You think that's still going on?
30:41
I mean, I read loads of reports. Oh, you know, yeah, we're better
30:44
at it now. Or do you think it's still not
30:47
there? So this is a really interesting
30:49
point. So when my children first got
30:52
diagnosed, which they were diagnosed on the same day back
30:56
in 2008, Nine, 2009. Is that right?
31:04
2006 and 7000? Yeah, 2009, both assigned female
31:11
at birth. I began to realise that this
31:15
would be a really, this was a really unusual thing.
31:20
And for my younger child who was three at the time, 2:00 to 3:00,
31:26
they were very more obviously autistic.
31:29
So they were, you know, they were sometimes elected to not
31:32
speak and they would speak about themselves in the third person
31:36
and they would wear all their clothes off the shoulder.
31:39
And then they would love undoing people's buttons and doing them
31:41
up and they and the love lining stuff up.
31:45
The one that was slightly older, who was 11 was very different to
31:50
that was very bright, sat in the back of the class and
31:54
disappeared and that really under the radar.
31:58
And so I because of the people I I can't even remember How I Met.
32:03
I think I just did an event at something just because of Thank
32:07
God for Fame Academy. I did an event somewhere and
32:10
someone who was one of the big movers and shakers in the
32:15
neurodivergent world heard me speak and said, let's meet up
32:18
for coffee. What's on your heart?
32:20
And I said, girls and autism is on my heart.
32:23
That's like, why are we why and why girls not getting diagnosed?
32:27
What's going on? So this lady, Jane Friswell, she
32:30
was amazing. She put me together and she
32:33
together as well. There was a few of us.
32:34
There's a panel of about 13 of us.
32:37
We got together, all these amazing educators, medical
32:41
scientific people and me as a parent got together and met
32:47
regularly to talk about girls and autism.
32:49
At this point, one in 10 autism diagnosis would be a girl.
32:57
Now we know, we knew back then it was far greater, but it just
33:01
wasn't being covered. And so for maybe 8 years we met,
33:06
we wrote a book together. We first we wrote a little
33:09
leaflet that went round, it was called Flying Under the Radar
33:14
and it went round to every GP in the country.
33:16
Then the World Health Organization started using it
33:19
and that one little leaflet that we collaborated on and wrote
33:23
together began to change things. It began to tip things.
33:27
The National Autistic Society were involved with this.
33:29
We had all kinds of people involved, as well as people from
33:34
the big colleges, university colleges, and then we wrote a
33:37
book together. So following up from the leaflet
33:39
of the book came and bit by bit things began to change.
33:45
It's only recently, and I'm what I say recently, I mean like in
33:49
the last six or seven years that we've really seen this massive
33:54
jump in women being diagnosed. Before that it was hardly known.
33:59
And I think I don't know what the figures are now, but I'd be
34:01
very interested to see them because I know at one point I
34:03
think it was one in four or something rather than one in 10.
34:07
I think we may even be towards 5050 at this point.
34:10
And I think that's about, you know, again, it's about how
34:13
science is done, how medicine is done.
34:16
So the research is done on white boys basically historically
34:20
that's what happens. And so white boys are the people
34:23
that will come to get their diagnosis will happen because
34:25
they've all been researched on and other groups don't get a
34:29
look in. And once those other groups
34:31
start getting a look in, then you realize actually there's way
34:33
more people than we realized. And the same with ADHD, of
34:36
course. And then and then we get pushed
34:39
back, don't we? Which is like everybody's got
34:41
ADHD or autism now, which is so ridiculous.
34:45
Like hang on a minute. They've had like 2 seconds of a
34:49
limelight. Let's not take them off the
34:50
stage yet. They need to stay on that stage
34:53
and give them a good old 10 years of being in the limelight.
34:56
Then we can start saying, OK, what's the next thing that we
34:59
need to look at? But I feel like they push to
35:03
shut that down, to shut neurodivergent people down and
35:06
to say, you know, what is it? All you people fuss about neuro
35:09
divergent, neuro divergent, we need to hear from neuro
35:12
divergent people. We need to hear from our
35:15
education system. We need autistic teachers, we
35:17
need ADHD head teachers. We need all these people to be
35:20
there in positions so that the the system changes.
35:24
We're not going to get a system change unless you start
35:26
listening to the neuro divergent people.
35:28
OK, here we go then, right? You've done this now.
35:31
You, you, you've put yourself right there.
35:33
So I'm going to give you so you stop talking.
35:38
Actually, I'm going to stick on that gorgeous Sophie you've got
35:42
right there. You probably wouldn't allow her
35:43
through the door, but I've let her in.
35:45
So tough. Sat next to you right now is
35:48
Bridget Phillips. And what would you say to her?
35:50
Give her, give her, give her three pieces of advice from from
35:55
Cary Granter you think she needs to hear Because I'd love to know
35:58
your thoughts on this. Actually, well, the most
36:02
important thing is the children, isn't it?
36:05
So I could talk about her most recent campaign, but I won't
36:10
skip that because I have other things that are more important
36:13
to talk about with Bridget Phillipson and I'd.
36:16
And also we don't know whether Bridget Phillipson will still be
36:18
in the role that she's in if Andy Burnham gets in.
36:22
So there is a bit of a question there.
36:24
But I think whenever we talk about local authority provision
36:31
and we talk about school provision, and I find myself,
36:36
and this is this has happened since those very early days of
36:40
being part of that group that I just mentioned that was looking
36:43
at girls and autism. We have to look at ideology
36:48
because I think that ideology is where things start.
36:51
And having studied theology, I now look at the world and I was
36:56
even before this, but looking at the world in like what?
36:59
Whose voices is it that we're hearing?
37:02
And until we change the ideology that's out there currently,
37:07
which is the ideology of normal, unless that flips and there is
37:12
somehow a more even ground and equal ground, then we are going
37:17
to. It's going to be hard work.
37:19
It's a bit like giving me a whole list of things to do that
37:23
I'm not capable of doing or changing my heart and saying to
37:28
my heart, do you know what it would be like to love someone
37:31
and serve them and be gorgeous to them?
37:33
If you're speaking to the love of my heart, I can do like as,
37:36
as a, you know, as David's wife. I've been married nearly 40
37:39
years now, 38 years. If someone, if David had given
37:44
me a list of all the things I'm meant to do, I would not have
37:46
even got married. I wouldn't have made it to the
37:48
Isle. But love without any asking me
37:53
to do anything, just loving me and me loving David means that I
37:59
will do lots of things. There's lots and lots of things
38:01
I do. So that's ideology.
38:03
Ideology, if it starts from a place of grace and love is a
38:06
very different space At the moment.
38:08
What we have is the ideology of normal that everybody's trying
38:12
to keep up with and failing at. We've then what what the DfE
38:17
thinks is let's add Sats because Sats will make it.
38:22
Obviously there's no rigor these days.
38:23
These kids are not growing up in the way that we grew up.
38:26
So let's give them some more rules.
38:28
Let's give them some more exams. And so we pile on top of an
38:32
already broken system, some exams, which further alienates
38:37
the people who are slightly different and on and then we go,
38:41
what is going wrong? Why can't they do the SAS?
38:43
It's the teachers. The teachers are failing.
38:45
The teachers are not doing their job well enough.
38:47
Then teachers feel really discouraged.
38:49
And then when the teachers go, hang on a minute, we are doing,
38:52
we're doing as much as we can. Then the senior leadership get
38:55
them finger at them. So then the senior and then the
38:58
senior teachers go, you know what it is?
38:59
It's the parenting. And then we get a whole flurry
39:02
of stuff online about parenting is terrible.
39:04
And all of this will keep cycling round in circles until
39:08
we look at ideology, until we can actually look at a diverse
39:12
and inclusive way of thinking. Thinking then things will
39:17
change. If we think differently the
39:19
behaviour changes. Just tell me behaviour changes,
39:21
nothing will change. Change my ideology and then I'll
39:25
then stuff changes. So Bridget Phillipson, sorry
39:28
this is a really long way to get into a point #1 Bridget
39:31
Phillipson needs to think about what is the ethos of education
39:36
and who are we educating? Do we love these kids?
39:38
Do we really want them to succeed?
39:40
What do we want for these incredibly gifted humans who
39:44
have all of this stuff inside them stored up, ready for use,
39:48
ready to find a purposeful future?
39:50
What do we, what are we giving them that helps them to release
39:54
that? And it's not, we can answer that
39:57
question. We really can't get on to what
39:59
should a school system look like?
40:01
So that's the first one is the ideology.
40:03
I think the second framework is like how do we create?
40:10
How do we spend the money in the right way?
40:13
I think that that's a really big question.
40:15
I think that there's been a massive criticism of SEND
40:18
schools that children are not fitting into mainstream.
40:22
They end up going to a SEND school and that SEND school is a
40:25
private school and therefore being paid 60 grand for the year
40:30
by the local authority. And then the local authority
40:33
goes bankrupt because they can't afford the schools.
40:36
I get why they're moaning about that, but at the same time,
40:40
where is the building of our public schools?
40:44
Where, where is the building of SEND schools?
40:48
Why is it the private sector that's building all of these
40:51
schools? Because who pays for those
40:53
schools is actually the local authority the government end up
40:56
paying for. It's the same as our NHS.
40:58
You keep offshooting a little bit more to private services and
41:00
eventually the actual system itself breaks.
41:03
So this is what's happening in in our in our education system.
41:08
And so we've got to invest in new schools and schools that
41:12
work for everyone, not just your neurotypical students.
41:15
Neurotypical students will always flourish.
41:17
They'll always be fine. They'll be OK.
41:19
No threats to the neurotypical students.
41:22
The threat is to those who are different.
41:24
The threat is to those who in one way or another are
41:27
marginalized. And that's it.
41:28
That covers a whole load of different things, not near just
41:31
neurodivergence. It covers social economics and
41:35
culture and all of those things. But if you think about the rich
41:39
resources, if you looked at it on a resource basis, if you look
41:44
at the children going into school at four and five years
41:46
old and all that they hold, all that they hold culturally, all
41:51
that they hold in their brains, all that they hold creatively.
41:54
My goodness, the world would be a different place if we actually
41:58
worked out how do we get the best out of children and take
42:02
education from from that point? And so Building Schools that
42:06
work for everyone. If they don't work for everyone,
42:09
then we need to build another type of school.
42:12
It's not going to work just shoehorning neurodivergent
42:15
people into neurotypical spaces. It doesn't work.
42:18
We know it doesn't work. Our children in my case, end up
42:21
on suicide watch or my child ends up out of school for three
42:25
years. Another child or another child
42:26
wasn't been to school for is 12 was is 16 not been to school
42:30
since the age of 12, so. Here it is, still often it's
42:33
heartbroken. Oh yeah.
42:34
And this isn't it. This is like normal in my house.
42:36
Like it's not even, it's not even like one child.
42:38
It's like 3 children. So now, and this is coming from
42:41
parents who like David and I are so on it in terms of be educated
42:45
get, you know, get oh, we were really strict parents.
42:49
We then had to jump ship from the way of thinking that we had,
42:52
but we were like, definitely, you know, quite pushy parents
42:56
and, you know, in terms of our children and wanting them to do
42:59
well. And then we we entered the
43:01
system that was so broken, that broke our children.
43:04
And then you have to push back. You've got no option but to push
43:06
back. So Bridget Phillipson, we need
43:10
schools that are built by your government, not built by private
43:14
companies. And we need for those schools to
43:17
work for, for these different children, not just as a bolt on
43:22
on a mainstream school, but stand alone schools.
43:26
I have to say, once my child, one of my children was out of
43:30
school for three years. And you know, as a parent, you
43:33
end up being teacher, you end up being still being parent.
43:37
You're a teacher, therapist, best friend, entire, you're
43:41
everything. And they will never get back
43:44
those three years that they were out of school, but they ended up
43:47
in an autism school that transformed them from 14 to 19.
43:51
They were there and it was truly amazing.
43:53
They're now in a mainstream college.
43:55
So I think that having those years in an autism school was so
44:00
healing, so amazing, so wonderful.
44:03
And I wish that had been there for the older child who really
44:06
struggled so. That's interesting.
44:09
I say just shows by nurturing, the end result is different.
44:16
So imagine if that nurturing wasn't there for your children.
44:19
Where would we be now? Do you think?
44:21
And this is what I keep coming back to.
44:23
This is what I I worry I say the same as you.
44:29
I hear, you know, families reach out to me the same as the duty
44:32
you no doubt. And and you know, as parents,
44:36
you, you spend your lives, don't you, trying to protect children.
44:39
I'm doing my eldest at the moment.
44:41
You know, he does online schooling.
44:43
He's given, he's given the ability to do, to use accessible
44:48
tools. And then we go on an exam call
44:53
the other day to be told, oh, unfortunately we don't, we don't
44:58
have this technology in the exam situation.
45:01
So it's invigilated and he's going to have to use paper and
45:04
pen. And I'm like, well, what was the
45:06
point of you giving him all that technology to boost his
45:10
confidence getting where we need to be?
45:13
It worries me. It worries me what is going to
45:15
happen. 10 And I agree with you. You know, they need I love the
45:19
whole what you were talking about love and everything like
45:22
that really touched me actually. But if if somebody was to look
45:25
at this weird way of looking at someone put rose tinted lenses
45:29
on and looked at this just for for a day and thought to
45:33
themselves in a horrible way. So what's the return on
45:37
investment? If I was to do something
45:40
different right now and take your children, and I was to do
45:44
this long term and I was to, I know, I know that the mainstream
45:49
children are going to be fine. We don't need to worry about
45:52
them. They'll survive.
45:53
They they are good, they're academic, they'll do well.
45:56
But what are we going to get out of these newer diverse kids by
45:59
doing something different? Are we going to make more
46:01
millionaires? Are we going to make more
46:02
businesses? Are we going to find a cure for
46:05
diseases because these kids have this wonderful brains that we
46:09
can just nurture. I think if somebody did that,
46:12
they'd be surprised the results they got.
46:14
But hey, what a wonderful world that would be, right?
46:18
Yeah, and, and I think that, you know, there, there does seem to
46:21
be, I mean, we could talk about plotting, but there does seem to
46:25
be when you start taking the arts out of school, when you
46:29
want STEM rather than STEAM, you know, there are all the signs
46:32
that the creative people, which are largely the neurodivergent
46:37
people, let's let's not provide for them.
46:40
Let's just take out the the A. The A is probably the thing
46:42
that's keeping those kids alive right now.
46:45
But also, you know, not only this, if we don't invest in our
46:49
children now, these are the kids that will be on benefits later.
46:53
They're going to cost you more than the long run if they don't
46:55
get an education. So.
46:58
Juvenile system as well, somewhat dyslexics is a really
47:02
interesting thing that came out not so long ago about how many
47:05
dyslexic and ADHD young men end up in the juvenile system and
47:10
then end up reoffending and end up in prison because they can't
47:13
get a job. Because there's no, you know,
47:15
the kind of jobs that I would have got like like, you know,
47:19
working down the mines, working in a garage, mended a car, you
47:22
know, lower skilled jobs. Not there's anything wrong with
47:25
that, but that's what we did because that's all we thought we
47:27
were worthy of. You're dead right.
47:30
You're dead right. It's what it's really worrying.
47:33
I, I, I don't know, I don't know if it's I, I, I hate to say
47:37
this, but I think people will be talking about this on podcast 20
47:41
years time. I've been the same conversation
47:42
that you and I have in right now, talking about exactly the
47:45
same thing, unfortunately. But all we can do is talk about
47:47
it, right? You know, I, I do think that
47:51
also back in our school days, there was like, there were
47:56
children, like most of us didn't go to university where I was
47:59
like there was a couple of kids would go to uni, but most didn't
48:02
even go to uni. They went and got jobs or they
48:04
started apprenticeships. But like no one looked down on
48:08
someone because they had an apprenticeship.
48:09
Apprenticeships was seen as like something really amazing.
48:11
Like, Oh, my parents, we did apprenticeships.
48:14
Like that's what you did. That was your way of learning.
48:17
And I think for neurodivergent people, that was a real way in
48:21
during those years where maybe you're taking that longer
48:24
trajectory of learning. Apprenticeships are amazing.
48:27
Why have we gotten rid of that? You know, and not only that, but
48:30
it's a wonderful ways of earning, you know, that
48:34
builders, roofers, those people are like incredible, incredible
48:39
internally. So I'm laughing because you just
48:41
made me think of something. I'm going to say this because my
48:43
son always listens to these podcasts.
48:45
So my first, So after my years of dressing up as Adam, in the
48:50
end, my first job at the age of I would have been 15 after
48:55
school, so three nights a week was sweeping the sawdust up on a
48:59
floor in a butcher's and then I was on what was it called?
49:02
Was it the YTS scheme? I earn £12 a week maybe and that
49:09
was year 2 I think. But they taught me how to be a
49:12
butcher and it was a skilled job.
49:15
Exactly. And you like, who are you
49:19
learning a trade? You're learning how to be with
49:21
adults, You're learning how to work with the public when they
49:24
walk in. You might be learning the till
49:27
you might be there's so many skills that you're learning that
49:29
school will not teach you. So there there's there's a magic
49:33
in that that I think that we've just lost.
49:36
Yeah, no, totally it is. I agree.
49:41
And, you know, I've asked this question to other people before.
49:45
I'm kind of going to ask it to you.
49:46
I, I worry what worries me the most is how many children still
49:52
sit in that classroom today? Like you mentioned, your eldest,
49:58
I think you said, sat at the back and disappeared.
50:00
How many still are doing that now today as we speak?
50:04
How many you know? Absolutely low worrying.
50:08
Yeah, not. Totally worrying.
50:11
I, I do think also there is, and I think about this for my child
50:16
who's 31, when they were at school, parents were allowed in
50:22
and to the classroom. And so there were, it wasn't
50:26
just a teacher and ATA, there were like three other parents
50:29
that might, There's one mum that was there like every single day.
50:31
She was always in the school. But I would go in and I'd teach
50:34
like sewing, all the things that I do, reading with the kids.
50:38
I think if you include parents this is and that would be my
50:41
third question really or comment to Bridget Phillips and would be
50:45
around Co production with parents.
50:47
Quite often parents hold magic and we're not even using that
50:51
free resource that is sitting there whilst a parent can't work
50:55
because they, they're the school are going to call them every 10
50:58
minutes saying pick up your child.
51:00
So it kind of kills any ability to work.
51:02
You're like sitting there. You, you could be doing amazing
51:05
stuff in that school. You know, you just need, we just
51:08
need to make sure everyone's safe to go into school, of
51:10
course. But if you've got all the DBS
51:12
stuff going, why can't parents be in there?
51:15
Why are we saying it's only a teacher and ATA?
51:18
When my 30 year old was 78910 there were parents in the class
51:22
every single day. Parents were there everyday
51:25
doing stuff, helping each all the.
51:28
Kids in a class it. Wasn't just it wasn't just down
51:31
to one TA to work out, you know, if you've got 20% of children
51:35
and are now considered to be neurodivergent in a class.
51:38
So in a class of 30 kids, you're going to have six of them are
51:42
going to be, you know, needing that extra help.
51:45
How is 1 TA meant to help six children?
51:48
They can't. But if you've got 3 or 4
51:49
parents, those parents can. And those parents add something
51:53
to the community. They build the village.
51:56
They help those kids to feel like there's there's more adults
51:59
that I can. I don't relate to this one, but
52:01
I do relate to that one. So there's there's it's just so
52:03
helpful. So for me, Co production, This
52:06
is why the time that we're doing this podcast is right on from
52:10
the button for when a whistleblower came forward and
52:13
talked about the local authority laughing at not providing care
52:17
for children, send children and all of the you know, and it's so
52:21
you know, what's really interesting is that on my feet
52:24
today, there are I don't know how many hundreds of comments.
52:27
There's a lot of comments, but parents.
52:29
I've seen, I've seen it. Parents from all over the
52:33
country going. That must be my local authority.
52:37
What does that tell you? Everyone's claiming as theirs
52:39
because we all know this is how we're treated as parents.
52:43
We're treated parents and carers, treated despicably,
52:46
treated with absolute display when we could be Co producing
52:50
amazing pieces of work. We could be doing stuff with the
52:53
kids. We've all got skills that we can
52:55
bring into the classroom. I think that is an absolute loss
52:58
because that would build society as well.
53:00
If you've got parents, we could learn about all different
53:02
cultures. There's all kinds of stuff that
53:04
we can learn about if parents were allowed into the class.
53:07
No, no, I agree. You're right.
53:09
I don't disagree with that. Then I saw your post this
53:12
morning and yeah, I actually thought it was Milo Council boss
53:19
didn't I didn't comment on it. But it's it's it's it's
53:22
ridiculous. It's it's it's you know, it's a
53:25
broken system. It's it's it's it's old, it's
53:28
dated. And it probably served the
53:30
purpose when it was developed years and years and years ago.
53:34
And it was probably right then, but our minds and our bodies are
53:40
so in tune with technology and so in tune with our with what's
53:44
going on at any millisecond that our lives have changed because
53:48
of technology. And I totally agree with you.
53:53
But I loved your first bit about love.
53:55
And I think that, you know, for me, like this is this has been a
54:03
really interesting podcast for me because I know that, you
54:07
know, you part, I've read parts of your book and like this, like
54:13
the stuff you put out there, Anyone that's listening to this,
54:15
if you don't follow Carrie, follow her on Instagram, because
54:18
the stuff that you say on there is is beautifully put.
54:21
I saw that you put up a bit on there about how to do an ECHP
54:25
for ECHP form and this that near that.
54:28
It's kind of stuff that all the parents that listen to this
54:30
podcast should know. But I hope that if you just if
54:37
you and I just helped one person that listens to this today, then
54:40
that's, that's made me feel better.
54:41
But I just don't think there's enough, there's enough awareness
54:45
about what goes on in those classrooms.
54:49
And I'm not blaming teachers because teachers have got an
54:52
impossible job. You know, you've mentioned that
54:56
it is a vicious, it is a spin cycle in a washing machine.
54:59
Basically it's rinse and repeat. And I don't know how we change
55:05
that, but it does need changing because I fear in 10 or 15 time,
55:11
15 years time, probably, you know, not my, my list, but maybe
55:16
my, my, my oldest is, is this child.
55:18
I worry what schools are going to be like then I really do.
55:23
If something isn't changed now, you know.
55:26
That's what concerns me the most.
55:29
It will change when I suppose it begins to affect the
55:33
neurotypical families. You know, that's the thing with
55:36
being in the margins is that it doesn't change until someone in
55:39
the center says, hey, this is wrong.
55:42
And once the people in the center start talking about it,
55:44
once they start feeling it, then we'll probably see a bit of
55:48
change. But one thing I do want to say
55:51
to people listening, you know, if you are that send parent
55:55
carer and you are really struggling and goodness knows
55:59
we've been through so much, is to remember to climb out of your
56:05
child's skin. I think sometimes we climb into
56:08
our child just to empathize with what is it?
56:10
How does the world look from their point of view and how do I
56:13
advocate for them? How do I help them to find
56:15
agency? How do I fight the systems?
56:17
And sometimes we get stuck there and it's important member to
56:21
step back out again to look at yourself in the mirror and say
56:24
hello, I'm Carrie. Hello.
56:27
Whatever your name is, you know, to remember who you are.
56:30
Remember that you have a life that is separate to all of that
56:35
trauma that is going on with your child.
56:39
You still have you. Can track it down.
56:41
So it really can. Right, it's sucking.
56:44
Yourself find a village, find a village that loves on you, that
56:48
listens to you, that has hope for you.
56:51
You know, we really need to keep ourselves healthy.
56:54
It's really that bit really important.
56:57
No, I totally and and again, you've touched on something
57:00
there. I mean, the amount of parents
57:03
that that get broken because this you, you said, you know,
57:08
you stop becoming mum and dad, you start becoming, you know, a
57:12
reader, ascribe a writer, all is a legal aid ATA, you know, and
57:18
and all of a sudden, all of a sudden you start, you know, if
57:22
you've got a job, you start. I don't know, because even with
57:25
me, my experience, I work in accessible tools and accessible
57:28
education and even me with my eldest, it's, it's hit me, you
57:33
know, it's hit me really hard because I'm, I know these
57:36
companies and I'm, I'm reaching out these companies directly
57:40
now. That's because I know who they
57:42
are and know where they are in the system.
57:44
And then I took a step back and I'm thinking myself on that call
57:48
that I was on when we went through this example, I think
57:51
there was 164 other people on this team score.
57:53
Obviously no cameras on no microphones, right?
57:56
So these are all parents and we know that it's around, they say
58:00
between 13 and 17% of a classroom is neurodivergent.
58:05
They've been put in that system that was never designed for
58:08
them. So I was quickly doing the maths
58:10
in my head thinking, right, that's how many people parents
58:13
are on this call and it's probably mom or dad maybe and
58:16
they're on or both on one camera or one one laptop.
58:20
I was sitting there thinking, how many of the people is this
58:22
starting to affect? So I clicked on the right hand
58:24
side on the chat button, and you know what?
58:26
Everything that I was thinking was being put in that chat.
58:29
Why is there no. Yeah, why is this available?
58:33
Why is this? Why is this not happening?
58:36
Why is this accommodation not being made?
58:39
And then what happens As soon as they end the call, they go, oh,
58:42
yeah, we're trying to make the changes.
58:43
You know, technology moves fast. We're not sure when it'll be
58:45
available. The call ends, and then what
58:48
happens? They sat there exactly the same
58:50
as me thinking, excuse my French, holy shit, I've got to
58:53
go and sit and tell my son now that everything he's done for
58:57
the last 4 1/2 years, he can't do anymore.
59:01
And that is, that is what parents we go through, right?
59:05
It's the, it's that rushing defeat of being able to tell
59:09
your child. How do you tell them there's a
59:13
possibility here you're going to struggle in your exams because
59:18
the technology isn't there to help you?
59:21
And then it's, it's everything though, Jay, it's everything
59:25
from exams to our children who are in therapeutic placements
59:31
that for one reason or another might not be living in the home.
59:34
And then they're moved to, you know, I'm in London.
59:37
Let's just say that they're moved to Scotland or they're
59:39
moved to Wales or they move to some other area that, you know,
59:44
you just think, why is there not just somewhere close to home
59:47
where the relationship with the family can remain intact?
59:52
Why is it that parents like mental health placements, dogs,
59:57
orders, all the things, the other bits, the critical stuff
1:00:00
that's going on, that's also a part of many of our parents and
1:00:04
carers lives, you know, even in those areas.
1:00:07
It's there's, it's like it feels heartless.
1:00:11
It's heartless. You're talking about your child
1:00:13
has learned in this way, has flourished in this way, has
1:00:16
somehow found access. And now the very thing that has
1:00:20
been the the game changer for your child, they're going to
1:00:23
take away. Yeah, because because the system
1:00:26
system's not ready for them. So why offer it in the first
1:00:29
place? You know, and and you know,
1:00:32
look, I, I've, I tried and don't get me wrong.
1:00:36
And you know, financially we're not well off by any, any stretch
1:00:40
of the imagination. And at times it's nearly broke
1:00:44
us paying a monthly fee to put my son through this because I
1:00:48
knew straight away. I knew straight away, you just
1:00:51
do the the school system was not going to fit him.
1:00:57
I needed to do something different.
1:00:58
So we tried. So this school has charged us an
1:01:01
obscene amount of money every month to do something, which now
1:01:05
you're going to, you're just going to break him.
1:01:07
You're going to snap him in two. And I, I, I just think, yeah.
1:01:13
Not only that, but you're the one that's got to deliver that
1:01:15
piece of news. Yeah, as a parent and, and
1:01:18
that's the heartbreaking thing. But I love what you said.
1:01:20
And yeah, listen, I totally agree what Carrie said.
1:01:23
Find a village, find a community you can reach.
1:01:25
I'm going to put Carrie's details in the bottom of the
1:01:27
chart on the podcast, You know, drop me a message, join Carrie's
1:01:33
Instagram and pinger some messages.
1:01:35
Do whatever you need to do to give yourself.
1:01:38
You need to give yourself as a parent 5 minutes because
1:01:41
otherwise not only will your child be breaking that terrible
1:01:45
news, you'll break yourself as well.
1:01:46
And I don't want anyone to feel like that because it's horrible.
1:01:49
Right before I asked you my final question, going to do
1:01:52
something not done before, right?
1:01:53
You cannot think you've just got to answer.
1:01:56
Ready. Tea or coffee.
1:02:01
Favorite singer of all time. 01 song everyone should hear.
1:02:15
That's the clip. That's the clip.
1:02:17
That is one book that every parent should read.
1:02:19
Carrie, come on. Beautiful book.
1:02:26
Totally. No, you did tally.
1:02:28
And I want, Yeah, I want them to one book that every teacher
1:02:31
should read. One word.
1:02:35
Your children, they had one word your children would use to
1:02:39
describe you, boss. One word you do you describe
1:02:47
yourself. OK, right.
1:02:52
So last question for you, the podcast is called Thick No More
1:02:57
because that's what I'm trying to do.
1:02:59
I'm trying to re make people realize that, yeah, we're giving
1:03:03
labels. Your children are given labels.
1:03:06
Unfortunately, we're put in a box which is never designed for
1:03:09
us, right? So take your time.
1:03:13
What does the words thick no more mean to you, Curry?
1:03:33
Yeah, that's the light for you, right?
1:03:36
Listen, Carrie, I, I can't honestly thank you enough.
1:03:42
You are a wonderful, wonderful human being.
1:03:44
You're an amazing member of this community.
1:03:49
I can't thank you enough, not only for joining me, but I mean
1:03:54
for for the for the compassion, honesty, courage you've got that
1:03:58
you've shown throughout your career and shown even more.
1:04:01
So you show up every day for everybody.
1:04:03
And you know, I think you mentioned your book there, you
1:04:08
shared that openly, your family, and I think it's that will help
1:04:11
loads more people that they read it that listen to this as well.
1:04:14
So thank you so much, guys. Listen, the only way that I can
1:04:20
that I can help you is by you helping me and and shamelessly,
1:04:26
all I want you to do is just click follow.
1:04:29
Because the more of you that follow, the more this gets to
1:04:31
people, right? So if this is if this is any
1:04:34
part of this is resonated or touched, you just click that
1:04:37
follow button and that means more people will get to listen
1:04:40
to it. I really want to spread the
1:04:42
word. I want to help more people.
1:04:44
Carrie, honestly, thank you so much for my heart.
1:04:47
You're an amazing individual. Love you to bits.
1:04:49
Thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day.
1:04:51
And when it's time for bed, don't forget to say it's time
1:04:53
for bed.