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Journalism Under Attack The Correspondent In Theaters Based On Peter Greste · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: We'll be right back. and the lives they lead today
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  Speaker 1: as leaders and more. Be on the calling. Only on arrow.net.
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  Speaker 1: A-R-R-O-E dot net. Enjoy your exploration. How does it feel
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  Speaker 1: to be a part of the Smurf village? The Smurf village? Ooh,
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  Speaker 1: do we have Smurfs down here in Carolina? I know
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  Speaker 1: in my forest, Lord knows I got enough mushrooms, but
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  Speaker 1: I coax my trees to do that. No, it was
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  Speaker 1: turning blue. Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay, I
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  Speaker 1: get where you're going with it. Okay, well, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to ask this journalist we're about ready to talk with
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  Speaker 1: about how he feels. Yeah, all yours for the next 20. Peter,
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  Speaker 1: this has got to be very exciting for you because,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, everything that you have traveled to and from
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  Speaker 1: and with all the different changes around the world, what
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  Speaker 1: is it like on a journalist level like you've got
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  Speaker 1: where everything does change? And I just I've always wondered
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  Speaker 1: what it was like for you and what kind of
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  Speaker 1: shifting do you have to go through now?
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  Speaker 2: This is what journalists live for. A friend of mine
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  Speaker 2: once described it as being at the hinges of history.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's a great description of that sort of
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  Speaker 2: pivotal moment when things really dramatically shift. And I think
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  Speaker 2: that's exactly what we're seeing with you guys in the
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  Speaker 2: US at the moment. And yeah, it's been a part
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  Speaker 2: of such a part of my life for years now.
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  Speaker 2: It's been great to sit here and watch another of
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  Speaker 2: those hinges.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you've always had that courage and that confidence to
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  Speaker 1: go to the source of the story. And then now
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  Speaker 1: when you see the correspondent, if.
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  Speaker 2: I'd known now what I if I knew then what
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  Speaker 2: I know now, then I wouldn't obviously would never have
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  Speaker 2: gone to Egypt. But I thought a lot about whether
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  Speaker 2: it was the right thing to go. I thought a
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  Speaker 2: lot about whether the reporting that we'd done that got
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  Speaker 2: us into trouble was was the right kind of journalism.
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  Speaker 2: And I can't looking back on it, I still can't
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  Speaker 2: see anything that we would have done differently. It was
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  Speaker 2: an important story. It was, you know, the story of
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  Speaker 2: the unfolding political crisis that was tearing Egypt apart back
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  Speaker 2: in 2013. We had to be there. And my role
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  Speaker 2: as a reporter was to get to get in the
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  Speaker 2: middle of it, to be on the on the streets
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  Speaker 2: with the protesters and talking to supporters on all sides
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  Speaker 2: of the conflict. And, you know, we did our jobs faithfully. Now,
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  Speaker 2: the fact that we paid a price for it, the
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  Speaker 2: fact that I ended up being arrested and charged with
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  Speaker 2: terrorism offences for it, had nothing to do really with
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  Speaker 2: the journalism that we'd been doing and everything to do
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  Speaker 2: with the government's attempts to use us as a way
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  Speaker 2: of sending a message to all journalists to say that
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  Speaker 2: you will not speak to the opposition, you'll only toe
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  Speaker 2: the official line. You know, we just happened to be
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  Speaker 2: the mugs that got in the way of that message
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  Speaker 2: from the government.
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  Speaker 1: There's always one thing that I kind of notice about
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  Speaker 1: journalists as well as broadcasters that we know when we're
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  Speaker 1: stepping into an area that's a little bit questionable. And
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  Speaker 1: then when we get caught, we give off this little smirk.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you know what I'm talking about. It's like
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  Speaker 1: this little like, OK, it happened. You know, we can
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  Speaker 1: worry all day, but when it finally happens, it happens.
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  Speaker 1: And there's just that sense of confidence that comes out going, yep,
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  Speaker 1: you got me.
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  Speaker 2: Well, yes and no. I mean, I've been in really
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  Speaker 2: terrible places before. And, you know, the movie covers another
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  Speaker 2: one of those. I don't want to give away too
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  Speaker 2: many spoilers, but I got myself into, and my colleague,
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  Speaker 2: my producer, Kate Payton, were working in Mogadishu. And, you know,
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  Speaker 2: Kate's story turned out far worse than my story in Egypt.
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  Speaker 2: And that was a very, very difficult one story to tell.
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  Speaker 2: But that was one of those situations where we were
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  Speaker 2: experiencing exactly what you described. We knew it was a
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  Speaker 2: very dangerous place to be. We were carrying body armor.
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  Speaker 2: We were working with very heavily armed bodyguards. You know,
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  Speaker 2: we had a battlefield first aid kit in our car
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  Speaker 2: at the time. So when things went wrong, it's not
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  Speaker 2: that I kind of shrugged and said, oh, well, you know,
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  Speaker 2: this was bound to happen. I suppose it was, that
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  Speaker 2: was not the way we wanted. We were treating that trip,
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  Speaker 2: but we knew that it was, it was, As you describe,
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  Speaker 2: it was one of those things that we knew that
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  Speaker 2: there was every chance that things might go wrong. Egypt
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  Speaker 2: wasn't that way. We knew it was volatile. I knew
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  Speaker 2: it was potentially risky. I knew it was politically difficult,
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  Speaker 2: but I never really anticipated that I was going to
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  Speaker 2: wind up in prison, and certainly not on the very
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  Speaker 2: serious terrorism charges that we were ultimately facing.
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  Speaker 1: I just can't imagine what went through your heart in
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  Speaker 1: that way because you were building a story and then
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  Speaker 1: all of a sudden you become a part of the story,
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  Speaker 1: especially when they're saying you have no moral allegiance. It's like, well,
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  Speaker 1: now you've got to deal with yourself, interviewing yourself, and
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  Speaker 1: you've got to have answers for that self. Suddenly you're
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  Speaker 1: the person that's being on the stand here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's not the way these things are supposed
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  Speaker 2: to go. Journalists aren't ever supposed to become the stories.
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  Speaker 2: We're the observers, not the participants. And that was, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: you're right. That was a very difficult pivot. And I really, frankly,
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  Speaker 2: I really wrestled with it. One of the reasons that
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  Speaker 2: this story became so big was because I smuggled out
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  Speaker 2: a couple of letters from prison describing our attack, sorry,
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  Speaker 2: our arrest, not as as as the result of anything
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  Speaker 2: that we had done, but because of what we had
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  Speaker 2: actually come to represent, and that was press freedom. And
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  Speaker 2: that was, it took me a lot of time to
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  Speaker 2: think about that letter, to frame the letter, to declare
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  Speaker 2: our imprisonment in those terms, because I knew it was
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  Speaker 2: going to turn us into the story in a way
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  Speaker 2: that I never wanted it to. It also felt like
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  Speaker 2: a very risky strategy because I knew it would upset
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  Speaker 2: the authorities and there was every chance that we'd pay
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  Speaker 2: a price inside prison. There'd be some kind of backlash
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  Speaker 2: for it. But ultimately, when I thought about it, I
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  Speaker 2: realized I didn't have much alternative, that if we didn't
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  Speaker 2: make that statement clearly and unequivocally, then we were going
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  Speaker 2: to find ourselves dealing with the government's narrative that we
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  Speaker 2: were just a bunch of terrorists that were working with
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  Speaker 2: a terrorist organization to undermine the integrity of Egypt. And
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  Speaker 2: that was simply something I couldn't afford to let happen.
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  Speaker 1: And yet, Peter, I'm so inspired by this. And the
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  Speaker 1: reason why is because the limericks of Ireland, that's what
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  Speaker 1: helped save them during their times of turmoil. And then
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  Speaker 1: when you go and you study the El Salvador War,
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  Speaker 1: what did they use? Writing to get the word out.
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  Speaker 1: And so when I hear that you were getting the
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  Speaker 1: word out, I am so inspired by that and then
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  Speaker 1: to see you inside this this this documentary physically writing
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  Speaker 1: dude I I'm a writer I physically use ink so
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  Speaker 1: therefore I mean to see you doing it was such
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  Speaker 1: an inspiration because you.
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  Speaker 2: I one of the reasons I did it was because
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  Speaker 2: I was inspired by one of the guys that was
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  Speaker 2: in this in the cells next to me when I
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  Speaker 2: was in solitary confinement he was having whispered conversations through
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  Speaker 2: the door. A guy called Alaa Abdel Fattah, who was
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  Speaker 2: one of the most extraordinary political minds I've ever come across.
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  Speaker 2: And he helped me understand the power, not just of words,
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  Speaker 2: but the power of words from behind bars. He helped
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  Speaker 2: me understand or appreciate that a letter from within prison
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  Speaker 2: smuggled out through the prison networks would resonate in ways
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  Speaker 2: that a simple article published in a paper could never do.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm so grateful to him for helping me understand that,
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  Speaker 2: for helping smuggle in the writing materials and for helping
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  Speaker 2: smuggle out the letter that I ultimately wrote. And as
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  Speaker 2: you said, those words really did carry tremendous weight. And
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  Speaker 2: I think in lots of ways framed the campaign that
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  Speaker 2: really became a global issue in ways that I could
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  Speaker 2: never have appreciated otherwise.
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  Speaker 1: Please don't move. There's more with Peter Gresta coming up next.
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  Speaker 1: The name of the movie, The Correspondent, based on the
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  Speaker 1: journey that was taken by this journalist, Mr. Peter Gresta.
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  Speaker 1: For the correspondent to come to life and to be
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  Speaker 1: in theaters, and I do really want listeners to go
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  Speaker 1: to the theaters to experience this because there's something about
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  Speaker 1: seeing it on the big screen versus a flat screen
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  Speaker 1: that it really does bring you more into the storyline.
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  Speaker 1: But to be, how did you not relive this moment?
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  Speaker 1: Or did you, and was it, did you have to
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  Speaker 1: start all over basically in your daily writing to go, okay,
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  Speaker 1: here we go again. All those emotions are back in
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  Speaker 1: my heart.
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  Speaker 2: The first couple of times, it was a pretty tough watch.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, the movie isn't pinpoint perfectly accurate on every level.
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  Speaker 2: No movie ever can be. But in its essence, it
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  Speaker 2: captures the experience in ways that I found pretty triggering
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  Speaker 2: for the first few times that I watched it. But listen,
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  Speaker 2: I've got to be honest with you. This was an
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  Speaker 2: opportunity to retell the story and use... the narrative, use
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  Speaker 2: the experience for something positive. I know that the Egyptian
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  Speaker 2: government tried to take away my voice. They tried to
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  Speaker 2: silence me. And so now I've realized that every time
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  Speaker 2: I have an opportunity like this, like the big screen,
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  Speaker 2: this microphone, the opportunity to talk to you and your listeners,
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  Speaker 2: It's a way of saying to the Egyptian government, screw
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  Speaker 2: you guys. You've actually made it worse for yourselves. You've
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  Speaker 2: given me a voice and a platform and a story
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  Speaker 2: that I'm going to use every opportunity I have. And
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to take those 400 days that effectively you
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  Speaker 2: took away from me. And use it for something positive.
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  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, that's what I'm actually really pleased that
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  Speaker 2: we've been able to produce this film and really grateful
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  Speaker 2: to be talking to you today.
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  Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that I always feel in
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  Speaker 1: a story like The Correspondent is that when people always
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  Speaker 1: tell me, I'm speaking the truth, I'm speaking the truth.
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  Speaker 1: And I go, it's based upon. And what I mean
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  Speaker 1: by that is, is that it's stories such as this.
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  Speaker 1: when you say it's based upon a true story, I
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  Speaker 1: believe that life in general is based upon. And even
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  Speaker 1: in my daily writing as a journal writer, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: everything that I put on that page is based upon
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  Speaker 1: the actual events. As a journalist, how do you make
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  Speaker 1: it so real and it's not based upon, it is
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  Speaker 1: the facts?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, you'd understand that every time you retell a story, Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 2: you are putting your own interpretation on real events. That's
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  Speaker 2: just the way that telling stories, that's the nature of storytelling.
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  Speaker 2: We pick certain facts of the events. We don't distort
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  Speaker 2: those facts, but we arrange them in a way that
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  Speaker 2: helps translate the story in a way that's compelling. And
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  Speaker 2: that's what we're doing here. We're taking those very real, very,
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  Speaker 2: very personal, very intimate moments and at times really harrowing
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  Speaker 2: events and creating a narrative that I think conveys not
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  Speaker 2: just the experience but also the significance of what we
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  Speaker 2: went through and helping people, I think, understand and think
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  Speaker 2: about the role of the media, the importance of press
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  Speaker 2: freedom and the sacrifices that a lot of journalists around
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  Speaker 2: the world are going through today. That's really, if we
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  Speaker 2: can do that, then I think we'll have achieved something powerful.
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  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought that up because you're right
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  Speaker 1: about the journalists around the world. And I swear it's
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  Speaker 1: going to get worse and worse. And I don't want
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  Speaker 1: to be the bad luck charm here, though. But if
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  Speaker 1: we don't start preparing ourselves as wordsmiths and storytellers, then
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  Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot of us that are
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  Speaker 1: going to be shoved into these areas. And a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people running from it when we should be telling
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  Speaker 1: the story. It's just we're in strange times right now, dude.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's really interesting. When I wrote the book,
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  Speaker 2: The First Casualty, which inspired the movie, I remember thinking
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  Speaker 2: that this was really about, what had happened to us
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  Speaker 2: was the consequence of a narrative, or part of a
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  Speaker 2: narrative that started with 9-11, when George W. Bush declared
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  Speaker 2: the war on terror. And although he might not have
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  Speaker 2: intended to, it created a war of ideas and it
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  Speaker 2: elevated the language of national security and allowed governments to
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  Speaker 2: use national security as a way of coming after uncomfortable journalism.
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  Speaker 2: And I said to the publishers and then ultimately also
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  Speaker 2: the producers of the movie that we've got to get
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  Speaker 2: this story out fast because the further we move away
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  Speaker 2: from 9-11, the older that rhetoric, the older that narrative
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  Speaker 2: is going to feel. And in fact, the opposite has happened.
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  Speaker 2: We've seen the numbers of journalists who've been killed and
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  Speaker 2: imprisoned continually climb since 9-11 to the point that we're
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  Speaker 2: now at record highs. The Committee to Protect Journalists counts
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  Speaker 2: more journalists in prison today than at any time since
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  Speaker 2: they started taking the records back in the early 1990s.
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  Speaker 2: Last year, I think there were more journalists who were murdered,
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  Speaker 2: who killed on the job, than at any point in
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  Speaker 2: recorded history. And so we are, as you say, in
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  Speaker 2: a pretty dire situation. I hope, of course, that we'll
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  Speaker 2: see those numbers decline. But the trend lines are particularly encouraging.
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  Speaker 2: And I think anything we can do to help people
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  Speaker 2: think a little bit more about the role of the media.
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  Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of journalists, a lot of
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  Speaker 2: people are very cynical about journalists. I understand why that
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  Speaker 2: is the case. But if you're trying to imagine a
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  Speaker 2: world without journalism, that's not a world that I think
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  Speaker 2: too many people understand. think is is is going to
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  Speaker 2: be a good.
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  Speaker 1: One am i wrong to think that the journalist is
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  Speaker 1: the true scout i mean we've seen all these hollywood
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  Speaker 1: movies of the westerns where they send out the scout
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  Speaker 1: i've all and that's why i've been inspired by journalism
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  Speaker 1: because they are the first ones in it's like a
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  Speaker 1: marine first ones in last ones out that's what journalism is.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never quite thought of it in those terms,
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  Speaker 2: but I suppose you're right. There's something about being the
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  Speaker 2: first in. And as you well know, you've got to
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  Speaker 2: be fast. You've got to be quick. You've got to
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  Speaker 2: head in the opposite. When everyone's fleeing a crisis, it's
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  Speaker 2: the journalists and the first responders that are dashing in
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  Speaker 2: the opposite direction. Yeah, I'm very proud to have been
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  Speaker 2: a part of that. And I think you're right. It
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  Speaker 2: is really important.
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  Speaker 1: What do you do in those situations? And this is
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  Speaker 1: a personal example. When the Berlin Wall fell and when
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  Speaker 1: everything fell in the Soviet Union, I was that guy
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  Speaker 1: that was on the air reporting and nobody was reacting.
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  Speaker 1: What do you do in those moments when you know
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  Speaker 1: that you've got something that is going to change a
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  Speaker 1: community's life or even a national life and they're not
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  Speaker 1: reacting to what you're bringing to them?
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  Speaker 2: What a wonderful question. And, you know, I have been
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  Speaker 2: in that situation so many times. But it's also those
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  Speaker 2: moments when I realize that we don't necessarily report for consequences. Obviously,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: you want people to react to your story. You want
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: people to hear and respond. But it doesn't always work
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  Speaker 2: out that way. And that simply being there, simply writing
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  Speaker 2: that first draft of history, simply being that sort of
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  Speaker 2: documenter of events as they unfold, that is the job
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  Speaker 2: in itself. job as a journalist has always been to
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  Speaker 2: get in there, to get in first and to document itself.
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  Speaker 2: Everything that flows from that isn't really my responsibility. I'm
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  Speaker 2: always grateful. I'm always delighted when there is some kind
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  Speaker 2: of response to it. But that's not the point. It's
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  Speaker 2: the original documenting that matters.
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  Speaker 1: I always have to laugh at these people that try
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  Speaker 1: to shut the journalists out. And I'm going, you have
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  Speaker 1: no idea that we are still young teenagers that will
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  Speaker 1: break every single freaking rule to get that story. I
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  Speaker 1: always have to laugh at that. You're not going to
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  Speaker 1: stop us. We'll figure it out.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I suppose it's that drive, it's that curiosity,
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  Speaker 2: it's that bloody-mindedness that often gets journalists into trouble. I
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  Speaker 2: never expected it in this case, to be honest with you.
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  Speaker 2: Egypt wasn't one of those stories that I thought was
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  Speaker 2: going to turn out that way. I've been in plenty
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  Speaker 2: of situations where I thought things were going to go wrong,
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  Speaker 2: and obviously that's one of the stories that gets told
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  Speaker 2: alongside the story of Egypt, the story of my producer
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  Speaker 2: Kate Payton in Mogadishu, But this is, I guess in
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  Speaker 2: a way, that's one of the reasons why the story
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  Speaker 2: of the correspondent was so surreal. Um, it was a
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  Speaker 2: politically volatile environment. We knew it was, it was going,
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  Speaker 2: it was volatile, but it wasn't dangerous in the sense
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  Speaker 2: of some of the, in the way that it's been
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  Speaker 2: in some of the front lines that I've operated in,
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  Speaker 2: in Iraq and Somalia, um, and the Congo and Sudan and,
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  Speaker 2: you know, and Lebanon and elsewhere. Um, It was a
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  Speaker 2: political drama and it really wasn't the place where I
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  Speaker 2: thought things were going to go pear-shaped in the way
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  Speaker 2: that they ultimately did. And I think that's one of
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  Speaker 2: the reasons why, at least in the initial stages, it
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  Speaker 2: was such a traumatic experience for me and my colleagues.
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  Speaker 1: From one storyteller to another, from one journalist to another,
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  Speaker 1: when your freedoms are taken away and you bring your
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  Speaker 1: work forward every day, what do you do when you can't?
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  Speaker 1: Because I implode. If I don't have a writing instrument
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  Speaker 1: in my hand, if I'm not sharing stories, you were
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  Speaker 1: in that cell. I don't know how. What did you
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  Speaker 1: do mentally?
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  Speaker 2: Oh, I was writing.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, God.
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  Speaker 2: We managed to get a smuggled pen. And I was
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  Speaker 2: writing on toilet paper, rolls of toilet paper. And we'd
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: roll up those rolls of toilet paper and stash them
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: in little nooks and crannies around the cell. And whenever
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I had family visits, I'd smuggle them out and get
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: them into my family. So, in fact, there's a museum
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: in Australia, the Museum of Democracy in Australia, which has
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: a section on press freedom. And they've actually displayed some
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: of the letters that I managed to smuggle out. So, no,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: I was... always determined to keep writing, to keep documenting,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: to see it and treat it in a way as
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: another journalistic exercise, as another story to be told, not
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: just of myself, but of those around us who were
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: also imprisoned and who also had some pretty harrowing tales
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: to tell. Wow.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Where can people go to find out more about everything
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: that you're doing? Because there's so much inspiration here. and
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: so many reasons why they should invest in becoming a
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: journalist as well, because that story has got to get out. Nothing,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: if one falls, another one's got to be replaced right away, immediately.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: No questions asked.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Well, for a start, I hope people can
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: get along to see the movie. It's in cinemas across
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: the country from Friday, and it's available on digital and
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: on demand next week. month. I'm doing a lot of
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: work for an organization called the Alliance for Journalist Freedom
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: that we've set up in Australia as a media freedom
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: group that advocates for press freedom both in Australia and
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: across the Asia-Pacific region. And yeah, I'm still doing some
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: occasional writing myself. So I'm always very happy when people
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: jump on Google and follow my work.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Well, please come back to this show anytime in the future.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: The door is always going to be open for you, Peter.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. It's been great to chat.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Well, you be brilliant today, okay?
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.