Latest / The Science Diplomat / S1E3: Rémi Quirion on science advice, trust, and building systems that last

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S1E3: Rémi Quirion on science advice, trust, and building systems that last · The Science Diplomat

0:07
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Episode Three of
0:09
SPEAKER_00: The Science Diplomat Podcast.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Imagine being the top scientist in
0:13
SPEAKER_00: the country during the most
0:14
SPEAKER_00: terrifying health crisis in a
0:16
SPEAKER_00: century.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: The premier of Quebec looks at you
0:18
SPEAKER_00: and asks, what do we know about this
0:20
SPEAKER_00: virus?
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Most people would pivot, but Dr.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: Rémi Quirion looked him in the eye
0:24
SPEAKER_00: and said nothing.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Science advice is often discussed as
0:28
SPEAKER_00: a bridge, but today's guest argues
0:30
SPEAKER_00: it's actually a massive, largely
0:32
SPEAKER_00: invisible infrastructure,
0:34
SPEAKER_00: one he has been building for over a
0:36
SPEAKER_00: decade.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Dr. Rémi Quirion didn't start in a
0:39
SPEAKER_00: government office.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: He started in the
0:40
SPEAKER_00: lab as one of the world's most cited
0:42
SPEAKER_00: neuroscientists, eventually becoming
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Quebec's first chief scientist,
0:46
SPEAKER_00: president of the International
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Network for Government Science
0:49
SPEAKER_00: Advice, and the person responsible
0:51
SPEAKER_00: for helping connect science to
0:53
SPEAKER_00: decision-making across many systems.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Its mission focuses on about how
0:56
SPEAKER_00: those systems actually work and what
0:58
SPEAKER_00: it takes to build them.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Dr. Rémi Quirion, I wanted to ask
1:01
SPEAKER_00: you this.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: You've built your career
1:03
SPEAKER_00: as a neuroscientist and then
1:05
SPEAKER_00: moved into creating science advice
1:06
SPEAKER_00: systems.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: What led you to step away from
1:09
SPEAKER_00: research and into shaping how
1:11
SPEAKER_00: knowledge is used in government.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: Well, I was very, very fortunate
1:15
SPEAKER_02: during my career as
1:17
SPEAKER_02: a neuroscientist at McGill
1:19
SPEAKER_02: University in an institute in
1:21
SPEAKER_02: mental health.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: I was a great student, postdoc,
1:25
SPEAKER_02: probably too many publications for
1:27
SPEAKER_02: my own good.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: So things were going very well.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: And then the government came
1:33
SPEAKER_02: after me and said, yes, you
1:35
SPEAKER_02: should take it.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: I was not convinced
1:37
SPEAKER_02: at all at the beginning.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: But then at some point I said, yeah,
1:41
SPEAKER_02: maybe I could train a few more
1:42
SPEAKER_02: students.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I could publish
1:45
SPEAKER_02: a hundred more
1:47
SPEAKER_02: papers, scientific papers.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: Unlikely, I'll get a Nobel Prize
1:51
SPEAKER_02: or whatever.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: So maybe I could help another way.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: And decided to jump into
1:57
SPEAKER_02: the new position.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: One of the attractive features in
2:01
SPEAKER_02: Quebec was that I would be the
2:03
SPEAKER_02: first one.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: So you start from nothing and
2:06
SPEAKER_02: you try to build it.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: That's always what I have been
2:08
SPEAKER_02: trying to do during my career.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Was there a moment when you realized
2:13
SPEAKER_01: that producing knowledge
2:15
SPEAKER_01: just wasn't enough and that the real
2:16
SPEAKER_01: challenge was how it connects to
2:18
SPEAKER_01: decision-making?
2:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, certainly early
2:22
SPEAKER_02: days, even as
2:24
SPEAKER_02: a scientist, when I was at McGill,
2:26
SPEAKER_02: I had still at that time, really
2:28
SPEAKER_02: at that time, I had quite a bit of
2:30
SPEAKER_02: collaboration with government,
2:32
SPEAKER_02: especially with the Ministry of
2:33
SPEAKER_02: Health and Social Affairs.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: And of course, the language
2:37
SPEAKER_02: of the two worlds were very, very
2:39
SPEAKER_02: different.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: It's like one speaks English and
2:42
SPEAKER_02: the other one's not only French,
2:43
SPEAKER_02: it's kind of Mandarin or Chinese.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: So you have to learn the language
2:47
SPEAKER_02: of the other.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: And I said, well, maybe that would
2:49
SPEAKER_02: be an interesting challenge
2:51
SPEAKER_02: to try to connect more strongly
2:53
SPEAKER_02: with a policymaker,
2:55
SPEAKER_02: decision-maker, but also an elected
2:57
SPEAKER_02: official.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: So that's at the beginning
3:00
SPEAKER_02: the way I started by doing
3:02
SPEAKER_02: a tour of the various
3:05
SPEAKER_02: ministries in Quebec, meeting with
3:06
SPEAKER_02: deputy ministers, meeting with
3:09
SPEAKER_02: elected officials.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: And trying to convince
3:12
SPEAKER_02: them in a sense that I'm not there
3:14
SPEAKER_02: to take their job.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm there to work with them
3:18
SPEAKER_02: and to add value to what
3:20
SPEAKER_02: they do.
3:21
SPEAKER_02: And in the end, it's not
3:23
SPEAKER_02: me.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: It's not the chief scientist
3:26
SPEAKER_02: anywhere in the world that makes the
3:28
SPEAKER_02: decision.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: It's the elected official that,
3:31
SPEAKER_02: oh, yes, we consider science, but
3:33
SPEAKER_02: also other things.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: So we have to adapt to that
3:36
SPEAKER_02: situation as well, that basically
3:38
SPEAKER_02: the elected official will make
3:40
SPEAKER_02: the final decision, but
3:42
SPEAKER_02: hopefully it will be informed by
3:44
SPEAKER_02: science.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: Going back to what Amna referenced
3:48
SPEAKER_01: when the premier told you that
3:50
SPEAKER_01: you couldn't say that publicly
3:51
SPEAKER_01: because people would panic.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: How in general do you navigate
3:57
SPEAKER_01: that tension between scientific
3:59
SPEAKER_01: honesty, where 'I don't
4:01
SPEAKER_01: know' is a valid answer, but
4:03
SPEAKER_01: in the political world where that
4:04
SPEAKER_01: uncertainty is often seen as a
4:06
SPEAKER_01: weakness.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a very good point.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: And I think what I
4:11
SPEAKER_02: try to do, and colleagues that have
4:13
SPEAKER_02: similar jobs are trying as well,
4:15
SPEAKER_02: it's always better to
4:17
SPEAKER_02: stick to the data, to stick
4:19
SPEAKER_02: with the most current, valuable
4:22
SPEAKER_02: information, instead
4:24
SPEAKER_02: of trying to make a story.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: When you try to make a
4:28
SPEAKER_02: story, often it backfires.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: So basically, you're honest.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: You say, this is what we know.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: Could be option A, option B.
4:37
SPEAKER_02: This is what we don't know, the
4:39
SPEAKER_02: advantages and disadvantages of
4:41
SPEAKER_02: both.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: And then in the end,
4:44
SPEAKER_02: you will have the trust of these
4:46
SPEAKER_02: guys, of these officials.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's much better to keep
4:50
SPEAKER_02: the trust of these officials
4:52
SPEAKER_02: instead of trying to
4:55
SPEAKER_02: convince them when you don't have
4:57
SPEAKER_02: data that are not solid.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: But of course, I think
5:02
SPEAKER_02: this was kind of
5:06
SPEAKER_02: the way it was going for
5:08
SPEAKER_02: the past 10, 15 years
5:10
SPEAKER_02: since I'm on the job.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: The past two years have been a bit
5:14
SPEAKER_02: more challenging and maybe we'll
5:16
SPEAKER_02: discuss that a bit in detail.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: But of course what's happening, for
5:19
SPEAKER_02: example, in the USA, but not just
5:21
SPEAKER_02: the USA, about
5:23
SPEAKER_02: science, you basically you have
5:24
SPEAKER_02: data, you show that to
5:27
SPEAKER_02: the government and basically
5:29
SPEAKER_02: some of them will say, well, I have
5:31
SPEAKER_02: data too, I don't believe you.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: So that's a very challenging now
5:34
SPEAKER_02: new world that we are
5:36
SPEAKER_02: into and that's why in my
5:38
SPEAKER_02: mind science diplomacy is more
5:40
SPEAKER_02: important than ever.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to just like go back to
5:44
SPEAKER_00: your role as a chief scientist.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: You've built the office of the chief
5:48
SPEAKER_00: scientist from scratch in 2011 with
5:50
SPEAKER_00: no job description and
5:52
SPEAKER_00: have now served under
5:54
SPEAKER_00: more than a dozen ministers, if I'm
5:55
SPEAKER_00: not wrong.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: The role was created because
5:59
SPEAKER_00: there weren't strong enough links
6:00
SPEAKER_00: between the research world and
6:03
SPEAKER_00: the government.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: What do you think wasn't really
6:06
SPEAKER_00: working?
6:06
SPEAKER_00: And when you kind of
6:08
SPEAKER_00: stepped into this role, what did you
6:10
SPEAKER_00: see changing around you?
6:13
SPEAKER_02: I think one of
6:15
SPEAKER_02: the main objectives when
6:17
SPEAKER_02: the government during that time
6:19
SPEAKER_02: decided to create the job, was
6:21
SPEAKER_02: for them to have a one-stop
6:24
SPEAKER_02: shop in a sense.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: They were interacting with experts
6:27
SPEAKER_02: in university, in institute,
6:30
SPEAKER_02: already doing that,
6:31
SPEAKER_02: but they were usually, let's
6:33
SPEAKER_02: say you're in finance, you know one
6:35
SPEAKER_02: person at one university and you
6:37
SPEAKER_02: always contact the same person.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: It's not that the person is good or
6:40
SPEAKER_02: bad.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: It's just that
6:42
SPEAKER_02: you don't have always these
6:44
SPEAKER_02: connections.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: So basically, one of the objectives
6:47
SPEAKER_02: was, well, when
6:48
SPEAKER_02: I have a question, I
6:50
SPEAKER_02: will call Rémi,
6:52
SPEAKER_02: and he will be the one having to
6:54
SPEAKER_02: find the expert in the
6:56
SPEAKER_02: network.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: So instead of the minister
6:58
SPEAKER_02: or deputy minister trying
7:00
SPEAKER_02: to find the best person,
7:02
SPEAKER_02: it was on me.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: They said, we'll have a one-stop
7:04
SPEAKER_02: shop, all members of government
7:07
SPEAKER_02: use the same one, and
7:08
SPEAKER_02: then it's my challenge to try
7:11
SPEAKER_02: to find an expert to where they
7:12
SPEAKER_02: are in Quebec.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: And in a sense, not only in Quebec,
7:15
SPEAKER_02: it could be international as well.
7:17
SPEAKER_02: But Quebec's a relatively small
7:19
SPEAKER_02: community, so after a
7:21
SPEAKER_02: little while, you know almost
7:23
SPEAKER_02: everyone.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: So that made it
7:26
SPEAKER_02: a bit easier.
7:27
SPEAKER_02: And maybe I was a bit
7:29
SPEAKER_02: lucky in the
7:31
SPEAKER_02: early days, when I had questions
7:33
SPEAKER_02: like that, to find the right expert
7:36
SPEAKER_02: and that they give the right advice
7:38
SPEAKER_02: to government and then you
7:39
SPEAKER_02: build the trust of
7:41
SPEAKER_02: the elected officials.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: That's probably the way it happened
7:44
SPEAKER_02: the first few years.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: You're talking about it being a
7:47
SPEAKER_01: small community, but Quebec is
7:50
SPEAKER_01: at least land size is bigger than
7:52
SPEAKER_01: a lot of countries.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: And I think you've now
7:55
SPEAKER_01: been the longest serving
7:57
SPEAKER_01: chief science officer in
7:59
SPEAKER_01: a government capacity than
8:01
SPEAKER_01: anyone else in the world.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
8:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, and that's
8:06
SPEAKER_02: also because of the way it's
8:08
SPEAKER_02: organized in Quebec.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: The position of the chief scientist
8:12
SPEAKER_02: is defined in
8:14
SPEAKER_02: the law, so it's not dependent
8:16
SPEAKER_02: on the government of the day.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: So I have been through different
8:19
SPEAKER_02: parties for different governments,
8:21
SPEAKER_02: and so they could always get rid
8:23
SPEAKER_02: of me, fire me almost anything,
8:25
SPEAKER_02: but they have to go to
8:27
SPEAKER_02: the National Assembly and
8:29
SPEAKER_02: discuss in the National Assembly
8:31
SPEAKER_02: with the other parties.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: So it's a bit more challenging.
8:34
SPEAKER_02: Usually the format that we see in
8:36
SPEAKER_02: most countries is
8:38
SPEAKER_02: elected, the person is chosen
8:40
SPEAKER_02: by the government of the day.
8:42
SPEAKER_02: The government changes,
8:44
SPEAKER_02: the whole crew changes.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: So we see that in the U.S., often
8:47
SPEAKER_02: the U.K., in Australia
8:50
SPEAKER_02: and New Zealand.
8:51
SPEAKER_02: So that's a model where there
8:53
SPEAKER_02: is - my bias - that there
8:55
SPEAKER_02: is more stability in the
8:56
SPEAKER_02: Quebec model that does
8:58
SPEAKER_02: not depend on the color of the
9:00
SPEAKER_02: government.
9:01
SPEAKER_02: So you have some kind of stability.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: Of course, you need to renew these
9:05
SPEAKER_02: types of offices,
9:07
SPEAKER_02: but give a bit more time and
9:09
SPEAKER_02: less pressure in the political
9:10
SPEAKER_02: system that we have in Canada,
9:12
SPEAKER_02: which is kind of a British
9:14
SPEAKER_02: type of system.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that having that
9:19
SPEAKER_00: sort of influence over funding
9:21
SPEAKER_00: makes science advice
9:23
SPEAKER_00: more effective?
9:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're in that role with the
9:26
SPEAKER_00: government, but you've also served
9:28
SPEAKER_00: as a scientist, right?
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Or do you think it introduces
9:31
SPEAKER_00: new constraints for you in
9:33
SPEAKER_00: that workspace?
9:35
SPEAKER_02: In my own experience,
9:37
SPEAKER_02: and again with the different
9:38
SPEAKER_02: governments over the years and many
9:40
SPEAKER_02: ministers, it was a good
9:42
SPEAKER_02: thing.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: It was a positive thing.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: Of course, I was not involved at all
9:45
SPEAKER_02: in the decision-making
9:47
SPEAKER_02: process.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: The peer review panel, I
9:48
SPEAKER_02: had less to say in the sense that
9:50
SPEAKER_02: when I was at McGill and I
9:52
SPEAKER_02: was involved in many panels
9:54
SPEAKER_02: reviewing many proposals,
9:56
SPEAKER_02: then it was more like
9:58
SPEAKER_02: saying the overall
10:00
SPEAKER_02: guideline in terms
10:02
SPEAKER_02: of the priority, supporting
10:04
SPEAKER_02: research on all aspects,
10:06
SPEAKER_02: all fields, the next generation of
10:08
SPEAKER_02: scientists, so the general thing
10:09
SPEAKER_02: like that, and having
10:11
SPEAKER_02: a bit of
10:14
SPEAKER_02: support, financial support,
10:16
SPEAKER_02: when you have some special thing
10:17
SPEAKER_02: that you want to do.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: Again, during the COVID
10:21
SPEAKER_02: pandemic, we were able to very
10:23
SPEAKER_02: quickly establish a
10:25
SPEAKER_02: bank, a biobank of
10:27
SPEAKER_02: samples in Quebec, one of the first
10:29
SPEAKER_02: ones in the world, and then the rest
10:31
SPEAKER_02: of Canada followed us.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: But it was because we had a bit of
10:34
SPEAKER_02: cash to be able to do that.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: The network of chairs in science
10:38
SPEAKER_02: diplomacy did the same thing.
10:40
SPEAKER_02: I discussed with the government,
10:41
SPEAKER_02: they said, yes, go for it, and then
10:43
SPEAKER_02: we had a bit of financial
10:45
SPEAKER_02: support to be able to
10:47
SPEAKER_02: act on it.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: What have you learned in
10:52
SPEAKER_01: your job that you think that
10:55
SPEAKER_01: maybe it's hard for anyone else to
10:56
SPEAKER_01: see because you've served in this
10:58
SPEAKER_01: position longer than anyone else?
11:00
SPEAKER_02: I think I mentioned that
11:02
SPEAKER_02: a few times already, but trust is
11:04
SPEAKER_02: certainly key, keeping the
11:06
SPEAKER_02: trust of elected officials,
11:09
SPEAKER_02: independent of the political
11:10
SPEAKER_02: orientation.
11:11
SPEAKER_02: This is very important.
11:14
SPEAKER_02: Never taking anything
11:16
SPEAKER_02: for granted.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: Because sometimes
11:18
SPEAKER_02: as scientists, and that's what I
11:20
SPEAKER_02: was doing before, you
11:22
SPEAKER_02: go, you meet with one minister,
11:24
SPEAKER_02: you just add a paper in
11:26
SPEAKER_02: a prestigious journal and you
11:28
SPEAKER_02: summarize it for that person, you
11:30
SPEAKER_02: think, that's it, it's done,
11:31
SPEAKER_02: your job is done.
11:32
SPEAKER_02: No.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: You have to repeat and repeat and
11:35
SPEAKER_02: repeated because they have so many
11:36
SPEAKER_02: things on their minds.
11:38
SPEAKER_02: So you're never taking anything
11:40
SPEAKER_02: for granted.
11:41
SPEAKER_02: So you have to repeat
11:43
SPEAKER_02: the same type
11:44
SPEAKER_02: of story over
11:46
SPEAKER_02: time because often they
11:48
SPEAKER_02: may tend to forget it.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: And also you have to bring
11:52
SPEAKER_02: on new information as they
11:54
SPEAKER_02: come along.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: Of course, especially again, during
11:56
SPEAKER_02: the pandemic, I think we are
11:58
SPEAKER_02: changing every
12:00
SPEAKER_02: week almost, because we're learning
12:03
SPEAKER_02: about the virus, learning about
12:04
SPEAKER_02: the science behind the COVID-19.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: So that was changing.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: It was challenging to convey
12:11
SPEAKER_02: that to government, to our elected
12:12
SPEAKER_02: officials, but in the end, I think
12:14
SPEAKER_02: they started to appreciate science
12:16
SPEAKER_02: and the way we build science even
12:18
SPEAKER_02: more than before.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Would you call yourself a science
12:22
SPEAKER_01: diplomat?
12:24
SPEAKER_02: In a sense, I'm a science advisor,
12:28
SPEAKER_02: and, of course,
12:29
SPEAKER_02: I did that a lot in Quebec,
12:31
SPEAKER_02: but early days, Quebec has many,
12:33
SPEAKER_02: many offices all over the world.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of international activities
12:37
SPEAKER_02: as well.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: So in a sense, I became probably
12:40
SPEAKER_02: a science diplomat over
12:43
SPEAKER_02: the years.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: It was not, at the beginning,
12:45
SPEAKER_02: certainly was not the plan, it was
12:47
SPEAKER_02: mostly for Quebec.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: But with time,
12:51
SPEAKER_02: I started to say, well, we need to
12:52
SPEAKER_02: show the type of influence
12:54
SPEAKER_02: that Quebec can have abroad,
12:56
SPEAKER_02: and the science diplomacy is one
12:58
SPEAKER_02: tool that we are using.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: While we're still on the subject of
13:01
SPEAKER_01: you being chief scientific officer,
13:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering about relations with
13:05
SPEAKER_01: the U.S., because, of course,
13:07
SPEAKER_01: there's a different picture going on
13:08
SPEAKER_01: in the United States, and I'm
13:09
SPEAKER_01: wondering what the relations are
13:11
SPEAKER_01: like?
13:12
SPEAKER_01: Do you
13:13
SPEAKER_01: have a counterpart that you deal
13:14
SPEAKER_01: with?
13:15
SPEAKER_01: And relations are strained
13:16
SPEAKER_01: between the two countries right now?
13:18
SPEAKER_02: It's, uh, it's
13:21
SPEAKER_02: quite surprising still
13:23
SPEAKER_02: for me.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: I never expected to live through
13:26
SPEAKER_02: that in my lifetime.
13:28
SPEAKER_02: Because of course, the U.S.
13:30
SPEAKER_02: in terms of power and science,
13:32
SPEAKER_02: excellence in science, was a gold
13:34
SPEAKER_02: standard, even more than gold
13:36
SPEAKER_02: standard.
13:37
SPEAKER_02: And we were collaborating.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: I did some studies at the NIH
13:41
SPEAKER_02: in the States for my postdoc,
13:42
SPEAKER_02: a lot of links, scientific
13:45
SPEAKER_02: collaboration, but also interaction
13:47
SPEAKER_02: with the federal government
13:49
SPEAKER_02: in Washington, D.C., with state
13:51
SPEAKER_02: government, and so on.
13:52
SPEAKER_02: And almost from one day to
13:54
SPEAKER_02: the other, different
13:57
SPEAKER_02: mindset, very, very challenging.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: So I, in my job, still
14:01
SPEAKER_02: trying to help colleagues
14:03
SPEAKER_02: in the U.S.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: that are working in
14:05
SPEAKER_02: disciplines that are not popular
14:07
SPEAKER_02: there anymore, like, let's say,
14:09
SPEAKER_02: climate change, vaccines, mRNA
14:10
SPEAKER_02: vaccines, these types of things.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: Trying to offer them maybe
14:14
SPEAKER_02: a way to come to Quebec,
14:16
SPEAKER_02: to Canada, for a little while,
14:18
SPEAKER_02: they may decide to stay, they may
14:20
SPEAKER_02: decided to go back later on, we'll
14:21
SPEAKER_02: see.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: So that's one thing.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: Also for our students, because
14:25
SPEAKER_02: in the Quebec Research Fund, we are
14:27
SPEAKER_02: providing a postdoctoral award at
14:30
SPEAKER_02: 80% of our PhDs,
14:32
SPEAKER_02: getting the awards, we're going to
14:34
SPEAKER_02: the U.S. for postdocs in all fields,
14:36
SPEAKER_02: social science, humanities,
14:38
SPEAKER_02: engineering, health.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: From one day to the next, they
14:41
SPEAKER_02: cannot go there or don't want to go
14:43
SPEAKER_02: there anymore.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: So basically, the
14:44
SPEAKER_02: answer is okay, well, we'll try to
14:46
SPEAKER_02: see what kind of
14:48
SPEAKER_02: link and partnership we can develop
14:50
SPEAKER_02: with various countries in Europe or
14:51
SPEAKER_02: in Asia and all that.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: But it's still difficult
14:55
SPEAKER_02: because, of course, the U.S.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: was investing a lot on,
14:58
SPEAKER_02: let's say, longitudinal studies
15:00
SPEAKER_02: about ocean, about the
15:02
SPEAKER_02: Arctic, and from one day to the next
15:04
SPEAKER_02: they are not there.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: And we don't have the means to
15:07
SPEAKER_02: replace them from one day
15:09
SPEAKER_02: to the next.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: So I think we have to continue to
15:12
SPEAKER_02: help to support the scientists in
15:15
SPEAKER_02: the U.S. For us,
15:17
SPEAKER_02: more and more,
15:18
SPEAKER_02: we're working at the level of states
15:21
SPEAKER_02: and the level of cities,
15:22
SPEAKER_02: because many, many states, for
15:24
SPEAKER_02: example, probably the
15:26
SPEAKER_02: richer ones, like Michigan,
15:29
SPEAKER_02: like Massachusetts, New York
15:30
SPEAKER_02: state, you say, well, if the
15:32
SPEAKER_02: federal government doesn't believe
15:34
SPEAKER_02: in this, in climate change, for
15:35
SPEAKER_02: example, we do.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: So how can
15:37
SPEAKER_02: we continue to work with you?
15:39
SPEAKER_02: The cities of New York, Boston,
15:42
SPEAKER_02: Boston with Montreal, now discussing
15:43
SPEAKER_02: about science diplomacy, having
15:45
SPEAKER_02: joint partnerships on science
15:46
SPEAKER_02: diplomacy.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: So I think we're trying
15:48
SPEAKER_02: to find other ways
15:50
SPEAKER_02: to work with colleagues in the U.S.,
15:52
SPEAKER_02: but certainly it's a challenging
15:53
SPEAKER_02: type of time for
15:55
SPEAKER_02: all of us, and also bridging
15:57
SPEAKER_02: with countries, especially in
15:59
SPEAKER_02: Europe,
16:02
SPEAKER_02: that have the same approach to
16:03
SPEAKER_02: science, trying to have stronger
16:04
SPEAKER_02: partnerships with them.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: You talked about your own journey
16:08
SPEAKER_00: transition from academia into
16:10
SPEAKER_00: government, and you've pushed
16:12
SPEAKER_00: hard on public engagement appearing
16:14
SPEAKER_00: on platforms like Tulemo
16:16
SPEAKER_00: and Poli, where public interest in
16:18
SPEAKER_00: science was overwhelming.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: For many young researchers,
16:22
SPEAKER_00: though, moving towards policy can
16:24
SPEAKER_00: feel very risky.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: How do you convince a
16:28
SPEAKER_00: student who would like to go into
16:29
SPEAKER_00: science, or a PhD student, let's
16:31
SPEAKER_00: just say that pursuing policy
16:33
SPEAKER_00: is worthy enough.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: I think
16:39
SPEAKER_02: first is to convince
16:42
SPEAKER_02: the younger generation to go
16:44
SPEAKER_02: into science, that science
16:46
SPEAKER_02: can be fun.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: In Quebec, in Canada, often
16:49
SPEAKER_02: when I discuss with a
16:52
SPEAKER_02: young adult, I try
16:54
SPEAKER_02: to say, well, maybe, as
16:56
SPEAKER_02: a man, you like to play
16:58
SPEAKER_02: for the Montreal Canadiens,
17:00
SPEAKER_02: play hockey, but it's as fun to
17:02
SPEAKER_02: do science, if you learn something
17:04
SPEAKER_02: about a star, if you learned
17:05
SPEAKER_02: something about a bug, and a
17:07
SPEAKER_02: vaccine, develop a
17:09
SPEAKER_02: new molecule.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: So it's not easy to do
17:13
SPEAKER_02: that, but trying to
17:15
SPEAKER_02: say that
17:17
SPEAKER_02: science is for, I will exaggerate
17:19
SPEAKER_02: a little bit, but almost for
17:20
SPEAKER_02: everyone.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: It's not just for
17:22
SPEAKER_02: the happy few.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: Just that probably the way it's
17:25
SPEAKER_02: taught in high school and college,
17:27
SPEAKER_02: maybe it's not the most exciting for
17:29
SPEAKER_02: some people.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: So we need to change
17:31
SPEAKER_02: that as well, especially when
17:33
SPEAKER_02: you're a teenager and the group
17:35
SPEAKER_02: has a very, very important thing.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: So if one is in science, the other
17:38
SPEAKER_02: one finds that he's a bit nerdy.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: So I think we have to change
17:42
SPEAKER_02: that and do more like
17:45
SPEAKER_02: science, the practice of
17:47
SPEAKER_02: science is probably what needs to be
17:49
SPEAKER_02: done at that stage.
17:50
SPEAKER_02: It's done, but we need do more.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: Then the next step to
17:55
SPEAKER_02: go to a
17:57
SPEAKER_02: science policy,
17:59
SPEAKER_02: science advice,
18:01
SPEAKER_02: and of course, chief scientist.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: I remember when I saw on my business
18:05
SPEAKER_02: card chief scientist of
18:07
SPEAKER_02: Quebec, my God, this was quite
18:08
SPEAKER_02: pretentious to have
18:11
SPEAKER_02: a business
18:13
SPEAKER_02: card like that.
18:15
SPEAKER_02: And if someone would say, oh, I like
18:16
SPEAKER_02: to become one,
18:18
SPEAKER_02: this is hard and
18:20
SPEAKER_02: very few, very few.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: But on the other hand, maybe
18:25
SPEAKER_02: thinking of working in government,
18:31
SPEAKER_02: in science policy.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: And if you can improve
18:37
SPEAKER_02: on the law that's being
18:38
SPEAKER_02: discussed in government, my God,
18:40
SPEAKER_02: the impact of that may be much more
18:42
SPEAKER_02: than many papers that you publish in
18:44
SPEAKER_02: Science or in Nature.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: So that's why we have also
18:48
SPEAKER_02: started a program to
18:50
SPEAKER_02: offer a PhD student
18:52
SPEAKER_02: to go to work in a ministry in the
18:54
SPEAKER_02: Quebec government as we do in a
18:56
SPEAKER_02: Quebec office abroad, and now more
18:58
SPEAKER_02: recently in the cities
19:00
SPEAKER_02: to be associated with the
19:02
SPEAKER_02: level of cities, with mayors, and
19:04
SPEAKER_02: providing science and science advice
19:06
SPEAKER_02: because that's very concrete there.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: When you have flooding, the mayor
19:10
SPEAKER_02: needs to have a solution - for that
19:12
SPEAKER_02: you don't have to write a PhD
19:13
SPEAKER_02: thesis.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: So I think providing
19:16
SPEAKER_02: opportunities like that for
19:18
SPEAKER_02: the young generation and showing
19:20
SPEAKER_02: to them that science policy,
19:23
SPEAKER_02: science advice can have
19:25
SPEAKER_02: impact in society, and the younger
19:27
SPEAKER_02: generation really will like to have
19:29
SPEAKER_02: impact and often they are
19:30
SPEAKER_02: frustrated, rightly so,
19:32
SPEAKER_02: for example, with climate change -
19:34
SPEAKER_02: that and all kinds of discussion,
19:35
SPEAKER_02: but not much happens.
19:37
SPEAKER_02: But I think if we make it closer
19:39
SPEAKER_02: to the ground and
19:41
SPEAKER_02: showing to them that it's possible
19:43
SPEAKER_02: to have impact, and
19:45
SPEAKER_02: that their advice can have impact.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: And I think then they start to talk
19:49
SPEAKER_02: to their colleagues, to their
19:50
SPEAKER_02: friends, and slowly but
19:52
SPEAKER_02: surely, you build the crowd
19:54
SPEAKER_02: that way.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: So that will be my
19:56
SPEAKER_02: suggestion.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: When would you suggest
20:00
SPEAKER_00: scientists or prospective scientists
20:02
SPEAKER_00: to kind of start thinking about it?
20:04
SPEAKER_00: At the undergrad level
20:06
SPEAKER_00: or the graduate level?
20:07
SPEAKER_00: For context, I'm doing my bachelor's
20:09
SPEAKER_00: in science right now, but I would
20:11
SPEAKER_00: love to kind of transition into a
20:13
SPEAKER_00: policymaking space.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, when do you
20:15
SPEAKER_00: think a student particularly would
20:17
SPEAKER_00: be ready to move
20:19
SPEAKER_00: into a more policy-focused role?
20:20
SPEAKER_00: How much science do you
20:22
SPEAKER_00: really need to know before you can
20:24
SPEAKER_00: kind of step and advise in
20:26
SPEAKER_00: a government setting?
20:29
SPEAKER_02: My bias would always be
20:31
SPEAKER_02: to start early,
20:33
SPEAKER_02: like for science, science
20:35
SPEAKER_02: and science advice, science policy.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: You need to very early in
20:39
SPEAKER_02: the game to show to
20:41
SPEAKER_02: the younger generation that there
20:42
SPEAKER_02: are various opportunities in
20:44
SPEAKER_02: science, including science
20:46
SPEAKER_02: advice.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: And maybe a bit of exposure
20:49
SPEAKER_02: to that at
20:52
SPEAKER_02: the undergrad level is
20:54
SPEAKER_02: a good thing.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: Working maybe
20:56
SPEAKER_02: in the ministry having a
20:58
SPEAKER_02: few weeks, a few months type of
21:00
SPEAKER_02: training program.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: That exists in some places,
21:02
SPEAKER_02: but not generally enough, but not
21:04
SPEAKER_02: everywhere.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: But that's, I think we
21:06
SPEAKER_02: should build on that.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: And then of course, as you get
21:09
SPEAKER_02: at higher levels, like masters
21:11
SPEAKER_02: and PhD, of course then you become
21:13
SPEAKER_02: more, you
21:16
SPEAKER_02: have more of a background in science
21:18
SPEAKER_02: to be able probably to judge
21:20
SPEAKER_02: a bit more what's good science,
21:22
SPEAKER_02: not that great science.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: So I think, but I think early,
21:26
SPEAKER_02: for me, earlier would
21:28
SPEAKER_02: be better.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: And maybe also when you have a bit,
21:31
SPEAKER_02: do that a bit early in
21:33
SPEAKER_02: your career, then you realize,
21:35
SPEAKER_02: oh, I was thinking that
21:37
SPEAKER_02: I would like it, but that's not
21:39
SPEAKER_02: really for me.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: So when you
21:42
SPEAKER_02: are working in a ministry, for
21:44
SPEAKER_02: example, and going just for a
21:46
SPEAKER_02: few weeks there, you will find
21:48
SPEAKER_02: out if it's really something you
21:49
SPEAKER_02: like to do in your life.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: I want to talk about this
21:54
SPEAKER_01: new initiative that Quebec has
21:56
SPEAKER_01: launched, one of the most structured
21:58
SPEAKER_01: investments in science diplomacy to
22:00
SPEAKER_01: date.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: It's this network of
22:02
SPEAKER_01: university research centers funded
22:04
SPEAKER_01: by your offices.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Can you just tell us more about
22:06
SPEAKER_01: that, the significance of it,
22:09
SPEAKER_01: what you modeled it on, what
22:11
SPEAKER_01: problems you're trying to solve,
22:13
SPEAKER_01: what are your long-term goals?
22:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think Quebec is always
22:18
SPEAKER_02: a bit different.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: And of course, as I mentioned
22:21
SPEAKER_02: before, we have many
22:23
SPEAKER_02: offices abroad.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: It's one of the only provinces in
22:26
SPEAKER_02: Canada that has that.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: So we have offices in
22:29
SPEAKER_02: many cities, many countries in
22:31
SPEAKER_02: Europe, in the U.S., in Asia,
22:33
SPEAKER_02: in Africa.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: So these types of offices are
22:36
SPEAKER_02: there to link at the
22:38
SPEAKER_02: economic level,
22:40
SPEAKER_02: interaction between business in
22:42
SPEAKER_02: Quebec and business in
22:44
SPEAKER_02: that part of the world.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: But also higher education is
22:47
SPEAKER_02: one of the important ones.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: Culture, the culture of Quebec,
22:50
SPEAKER_02: very important, French and all that.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: French culture,
22:54
SPEAKER_02: very important, science in
22:56
SPEAKER_02: French,
22:59
SPEAKER_02: having a training program
23:00
SPEAKER_02: for these, to send
23:02
SPEAKER_02: scientists in these offices
23:04
SPEAKER_02: abroad.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: So that started a bit from there.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: We're building that over the past
23:09
SPEAKER_02: few years.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: We now have about 15 or 16
23:13
SPEAKER_02: of these what we call scientists in
23:14
SPEAKER_02: residence abroad,
23:17
SPEAKER_02: and they are fabulous.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: Now I have been creating networks,
23:20
SPEAKER_02: exchanging, and all that.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: Seeing that, then I
23:25
SPEAKER_02: mention to my government,
23:27
SPEAKER_02: well, maybe we could go now to
23:29
SPEAKER_02: another step in that
23:32
SPEAKER_02: field, and having chairs
23:35
SPEAKER_02: in science diplomacy.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: So to having really a person
23:39
SPEAKER_02: or a group of persons that will
23:41
SPEAKER_02: focus on science diplomacy,
23:43
SPEAKER_02: at least for a little while in their
23:45
SPEAKER_02: career.
23:46
SPEAKER_02: And what we decided to do,
23:49
SPEAKER_02: and the government was very, very
23:51
SPEAKER_02: positive, and what we decided
23:53
SPEAKER_02: to do is to create a program
23:55
SPEAKER_02: where each university in Quebec
23:58
SPEAKER_02: was allowed to submit one
23:59
SPEAKER_02: proposal.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: So we have 18 universities
24:03
SPEAKER_02: in Quebec.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: So we opened that last
24:06
SPEAKER_02: year, last spring.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: They submitted proposals on
24:10
SPEAKER_02: science diplomacy, but maybe
24:12
SPEAKER_02: focusing on some
24:14
SPEAKER_02: aspect of it.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: Being specialized, for example,
24:18
SPEAKER_02: on science diplomacy in the
24:20
SPEAKER_02: Arctic in the northern part of
24:22
SPEAKER_02: Canada.
24:23
SPEAKER_02: But we were very open
24:24
SPEAKER_02: to them
24:26
SPEAKER_02: and myself, I was not involved at
24:28
SPEAKER_02: all with any of the decisions.
24:29
SPEAKER_02: We had the peer review panel that
24:32
SPEAKER_02: looked at the proposal
24:34
SPEAKER_02: and in the end they recommended
24:36
SPEAKER_02: that we support, that we
24:37
SPEAKER_02: should fund eight of them.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: And I must say, it was quite
24:41
SPEAKER_02: surprising.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: Very happily surprised by
24:44
SPEAKER_02: the outcome where,
24:47
SPEAKER_02: without asking them, without
24:48
SPEAKER_02: telling them what to do, they all
24:50
SPEAKER_02: came with a proposal saying,
24:53
SPEAKER_02: myself, with partners,
24:55
SPEAKER_02: of course, science diplomacy needs
24:57
SPEAKER_02: to be with partners at the
24:59
SPEAKER_02: international level.
25:00
SPEAKER_02: So each of them had a partnership
25:02
SPEAKER_02: with various countries, and one of
25:04
SPEAKER_02: them decided to focus on
25:05
SPEAKER_02: climate change.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: Another one, they
25:07
SPEAKER_02: focus on the Arctic.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: Another one they focus on food
25:10
SPEAKER_02: security.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: Another one, they focus on the
25:13
SPEAKER_02: governance of AI and one
25:15
SPEAKER_02: on knowledge from
25:17
SPEAKER_02: the First Nations on
25:20
SPEAKER_02: the impact on science diplomacy.
25:22
SPEAKER_02: With countries in Europe, with
25:24
SPEAKER_02: countries in Africa, countries
25:26
SPEAKER_02: in Latin America,
25:28
SPEAKER_02: and countries in Asia.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: So I was very happily
25:32
SPEAKER_02: surprised.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: And when we launched it
25:36
SPEAKER_02: a few weeks ago, we asked
25:38
SPEAKER_02: each of the chair holders from
25:40
SPEAKER_02: Quebec, from a Quebec university,
25:42
SPEAKER_02: to invite at least one of their
25:44
SPEAKER_02: partners at the international level.
25:46
SPEAKER_02: And it was like fire, it was
25:49
SPEAKER_02: amazing, beautiful to
25:50
SPEAKER_02: see that.
25:51
SPEAKER_02: Each of them had a few
25:52
SPEAKER_02: minutes to present what they
25:54
SPEAKER_02: wanted to do, what they had proposed
25:56
SPEAKER_02: in the context of the chair.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: And immediately they started to say,
26:01
SPEAKER_02: oh, I need to talk, I needed to work
26:03
SPEAKER_02: with the other one.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: So to
26:05
SPEAKER_02: almost build the network on that
26:07
SPEAKER_02: day in a sense.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: So there is a lot of interest.
26:09
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot interest locally
26:11
SPEAKER_02: here in Quebec, in Canada,
26:13
SPEAKER_02: but a lot interest at the
26:15
SPEAKER_02: global level as well.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: A few days ago, I was at the head
26:19
SPEAKER_02: office in UNESCO
26:21
SPEAKER_02: in Paris, and they were very, very
26:23
SPEAKER_02: keen on that.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: They'd even say, oh, maybe the next
26:25
SPEAKER_02: meeting of that group should
26:28
SPEAKER_02: be at the head office of UNESCO in
26:30
SPEAKER_02: Paris.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: So I think,
26:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm quite optimistic that in
26:35
SPEAKER_02: the end that we'll have impact,
26:37
SPEAKER_02: the visibility of Quebec in
26:40
SPEAKER_02: terms of science, in terms of
26:41
SPEAKER_02: science diplomacy and science advice
26:43
SPEAKER_02: in various fields.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: And I hope that very
26:47
SPEAKER_02: quickly other parts of the world,
26:48
SPEAKER_02: other countries, other regions, will
26:51
SPEAKER_02: do the same.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: And we'll do even more.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: We'll have even more chairs than us
26:55
SPEAKER_02: and that we will be creating
26:57
SPEAKER_02: a network of networks, in a sense.
27:00
SPEAKER_02: And your shop will be very key on
27:02
SPEAKER_02: that, to follow up and try to
27:04
SPEAKER_02: know what works.
27:06
SPEAKER_02: Probably thinks something will work
27:07
SPEAKER_02: well, others will probably not.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: But just seeing the
27:12
SPEAKER_02: enthusiasm of the chair holder
27:14
SPEAKER_02: last week was amazing.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to kind of
27:18
SPEAKER_00: move on a bit to your work
27:20
SPEAKER_00: with INGSA.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Since 2021, you've been the
27:23
SPEAKER_00: president, and it
27:25
SPEAKER_00: operates across more than 130
27:27
SPEAKER_00: countries.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: What kind of drew you into
27:30
SPEAKER_00: that global role, and how
27:32
SPEAKER_00: do you think it's changed your
27:34
SPEAKER_00: understanding of science advice
27:36
SPEAKER_00: across different systems?
27:38
SPEAKER_02: I think when
27:40
SPEAKER_02: I started as chief scientist,
27:43
SPEAKER_02: of course, I had no blueprint,
27:46
SPEAKER_02: no textbook of what do you do
27:48
SPEAKER_02: as a science advisor, so I just
27:50
SPEAKER_02: jumped into that and
27:52
SPEAKER_02: on the first couple of days on the
27:54
SPEAKER_02: job, my minister at the
27:56
SPEAKER_02: time, when I said, well, I'm here
27:58
SPEAKER_02: now, what do I do?
28:00
SPEAKER_02: Because I did not know.
28:01
SPEAKER_02: And he said, oh, I wanted a chief
28:03
SPEAKER_02: scientist;
28:06
SPEAKER_02: I was like, well okay, now we need
28:07
SPEAKER_02: to build.
28:08
SPEAKER_02: So I called the chief
28:09
SPEAKER_02: scientist at that time in the U.K.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: and Australia and the U.S.
28:13
SPEAKER_02: and New Zealand.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: Finally, Peter Gluckman, who was
28:16
SPEAKER_02: the chief scientist in New
28:18
SPEAKER_02: Zealand at the time organized some
28:19
SPEAKER_02: kind of a meeting.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: And some of us said, well, maybe
28:25
SPEAKER_02: we should try to exchange.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: I would not call it best practices,
28:29
SPEAKER_02: because it was fairly early days,
28:31
SPEAKER_02: but what
28:33
SPEAKER_02: did we learn over the past
28:35
SPEAKER_02: few years?
28:36
SPEAKER_02: How can we help each
28:37
SPEAKER_02: other?
28:37
SPEAKER_02: So very loosely, we did
28:39
SPEAKER_02: not even have a name at the
28:41
SPEAKER_02: time at that meeting.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: But then say, okay,
28:45
SPEAKER_02: we'l have Peter and
28:47
SPEAKER_02: a few colleagues establish some
28:49
SPEAKER_02: kind of a structure.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: That became, it stayed very, very
28:53
SPEAKER_02: loose.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: But they had a lot of appetite,
28:56
SPEAKER_02: especially from the Global South.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: Like the first kind of science
29:00
SPEAKER_02: advice training program
29:02
SPEAKER_02: that we had was in South
29:04
SPEAKER_02: Africa.
29:06
SPEAKER_02: Then various parts
29:08
SPEAKER_02: of the world, we started to create
29:10
SPEAKER_02: chapters.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: And when Peter decided
29:13
SPEAKER_02: to step down and was appointed
29:15
SPEAKER_02: as president of the International
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Science Council, they suggested
29:20
SPEAKER_02: that, some members of the
29:21
SPEAKER_02: group suggested, well, maybe you
29:23
SPEAKER_02: could take over.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: And it was a bit,
29:24
SPEAKER_02: it was interesting for me because
29:26
SPEAKER_02: I was not, I was in a
29:28
SPEAKER_02: region, not necessarily at the
29:30
SPEAKER_02: country level, but I had
29:32
SPEAKER_02: support
29:34
SPEAKER_02: from the Quebec government as well,
29:36
SPEAKER_02: and still continuing to focus
29:38
SPEAKER_02: on building capacity in
29:40
SPEAKER_02: science advice all over
29:42
SPEAKER_02: the world, focusing especially
29:44
SPEAKER_02: on the Global South.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: So what did I learn is that
29:48
SPEAKER_02: basically,
29:50
SPEAKER_02: there is no -
29:52
SPEAKER_02: we're trying to support development
29:53
SPEAKER_02: of science advice everywhere - but
29:55
SPEAKER_02: there is no one formula
29:58
SPEAKER_02: that will work for everyone.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: So depending on where you are in
30:02
SPEAKER_02: the world, depending on your
30:03
SPEAKER_02: culture, depending on the language,
30:06
SPEAKER_02: you have to adapt the type of
30:08
SPEAKER_02: advice that you are giving.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: And often it's something that we
30:12
SPEAKER_02: tend to forget, especially from
30:14
SPEAKER_02: North America or wherever you say,
30:16
SPEAKER_02: oh, I know it all, and you go
30:18
SPEAKER_02: there and you say you should do
30:20
SPEAKER_02: A, B, C.
30:21
SPEAKER_02: And often they
30:23
SPEAKER_02: will be very polite.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: They will not say much, but then
30:27
SPEAKER_02: nothing happens.
30:28
SPEAKER_02: So saying, okay, you have a
30:30
SPEAKER_02: problem, you have the challenge,
30:33
SPEAKER_02: how do you like to go about it?
30:35
SPEAKER_02: And then they built it and you try
30:36
SPEAKER_02: to support them.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: So basically that's what INGSA has
30:39
SPEAKER_02: been trying to do over
30:41
SPEAKER_02: the past few years.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: And again, as I said, mostly in
30:45
SPEAKER_02: the Global South,
30:47
SPEAKER_02: the chapter in Africa is
30:49
SPEAKER_02: doing quite well, Latin America,
30:51
SPEAKER_02: a new person there.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: Asia is building, still building
30:54
SPEAKER_02: capacity, but doing well.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: We had created one in Europe
30:58
SPEAKER_02: a couple of years ago.
30:59
SPEAKER_02: And of course there, there is a lot
31:00
SPEAKER_02: of structure, a lot organization
31:03
SPEAKER_02: kind of do science advice.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: So we did not want to duplicate
31:06
SPEAKER_02: anything.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: So it's Claire Craig at Oxford
31:09
SPEAKER_02: that took that chapter.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: And basically there is what I
31:13
SPEAKER_02: was mentioning, so what is the
31:15
SPEAKER_02: impact of culture and language
31:17
SPEAKER_02: on the efficacy of science
31:19
SPEAKER_02: advice?
31:20
SPEAKER_02: And Europe is fabulous for
31:21
SPEAKER_02: that.
31:21
SPEAKER_02: We've got all the countries,
31:22
SPEAKER_02: all the languages, and all that.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: So that's one of their main focuses.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: And we are developing one in North
31:28
SPEAKER_02: America.
31:29
SPEAKER_02: And that one decided,
31:31
SPEAKER_02: the group in North American decided
31:33
SPEAKER_02: to focus on building capacity
31:35
SPEAKER_02: and science advice at the level of
31:37
SPEAKER_02: cities, at the very local
31:39
SPEAKER_02: level.
31:40
SPEAKER_02: And it's not just
31:41
SPEAKER_02: North America that kind of needs
31:43
SPEAKER_02: that, it's all over the world.
31:44
SPEAKER_02: Will be, the pilot will be more
31:46
SPEAKER_02: and more in North America.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: And as I mentioned a bit earlier,
31:50
SPEAKER_02: lot of interests from cities and
31:52
SPEAKER_02: what's happening, for example, in
31:53
SPEAKER_02: the U.S. at the moment saying, whoa,
31:55
SPEAKER_02: for us, climate change is important.
31:57
SPEAKER_02: How do we go about it and working
31:59
SPEAKER_02: with other cities to learn from each
32:00
SPEAKER_02: other?
32:02
SPEAKER_02: So it's really, again, building
32:04
SPEAKER_02: capacity and science advice.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: And by doing that, I think we
32:09
SPEAKER_02: are also, we'll have impact also
32:11
SPEAKER_02: on science diplomacy, for me to
32:13
SPEAKER_02: have good science, diplomacy and
32:15
SPEAKER_02: good science.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: I found it really interesting that
32:17
SPEAKER_00: you brought up Sir Peter Gluckman
32:18
SPEAKER_00: since we had him
32:20
SPEAKER_00: on the podcast as our
32:22
SPEAKER_00: first guest.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: So I'm a bit curious, when you're
32:26
SPEAKER_00: collaborating across countries
32:28
SPEAKER_00: with really different capacities,
32:29
SPEAKER_00: what's actually the hardest thing to
32:31
SPEAKER_00: build?
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Is it structure, expertise
32:34
SPEAKER_00: or trust?
32:35
SPEAKER_00: And how do all these different
32:36
SPEAKER_00: organizations really interact in
32:38
SPEAKER_00: reality?
32:41
SPEAKER_02: I think how can
32:44
SPEAKER_02: we help each other,
32:46
SPEAKER_02: how can can we help the
32:48
SPEAKER_02: partner, so usually that's the way
32:50
SPEAKER_02: we try to go about it.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: My day job as a scientist,
32:54
SPEAKER_02: but also with INGSA,
32:56
SPEAKER_02: trying to help each
32:57
SPEAKER_02: another.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: In addition to that, of course,
33:01
SPEAKER_02: financial support always helps.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: So we have a bit of financial
33:04
SPEAKER_02: support as well for the chapter.
33:07
SPEAKER_02: But especially in the
33:08
SPEAKER_02: Global South.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: They can do a lot with
33:11
SPEAKER_02: a relatively small
33:14
SPEAKER_02: budget.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: They know that they have a good
33:16
SPEAKER_02: network, like in Africa,
33:19
SPEAKER_02: in Asia, Latin America.
33:20
SPEAKER_02: So when they connect with each
33:22
SPEAKER_02: other, the impact is amazing.
33:25
SPEAKER_02: So I think letting
33:27
SPEAKER_02: them do what
33:29
SPEAKER_02: they want is important, trying
33:31
SPEAKER_02: to help them.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: And in Europe or North America
33:34
SPEAKER_02: where it's different, the
33:35
SPEAKER_02: same thing - what would be the added
33:37
SPEAKER_02: value?
33:38
SPEAKER_02: What is the added value of
33:39
SPEAKER_02: an INGSA chapter with Europe?
33:42
SPEAKER_02: So, and one of the things is that
33:43
SPEAKER_02: we're kind of a
33:45
SPEAKER_02: neutral convener.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: So we had a few meetings in
33:50
SPEAKER_02: Brussels and the colleagues
33:51
SPEAKER_02: from various groups say, well,
33:54
SPEAKER_02: it's nice to be together.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: We have never had that opportunity,
33:58
SPEAKER_02: because sometimes they see each
34:00
SPEAKER_02: other more as competitors than
34:02
SPEAKER_02: collaborators, and being around the
34:03
SPEAKER_02: same table maybe we could do this
34:05
SPEAKER_02: together without affecting their
34:08
SPEAKER_02: day work in a sense.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: So that's really what we're trying
34:11
SPEAKER_02: to do, be kind of
34:13
SPEAKER_02: a convener trying to
34:16
SPEAKER_02: help the various countries that
34:18
SPEAKER_02: want to build science advice and
34:19
SPEAKER_02: science diplomacy.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: Could you follow up a little bit
34:24
SPEAKER_01: more about competition versus
34:25
SPEAKER_01: collaboration, how that actually
34:27
SPEAKER_01: works?
34:30
SPEAKER_02: Of course training as a scientist,
34:32
SPEAKER_02: you're used to competition.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: Yes, you collaborate a lot, but in
34:35
SPEAKER_02: the end, it's really more of a
34:37
SPEAKER_02: competition.
34:38
SPEAKER_02: So you have to change a
34:39
SPEAKER_02: little bit the mindset.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm saying what, by collaborating,
34:45
SPEAKER_02: how it will help me, it
34:47
SPEAKER_02: will help me to go faster or
34:49
SPEAKER_02: to reach my objective sooner
34:51
SPEAKER_02: or to have more of an impact.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: And there, in a sense, what's
34:55
SPEAKER_02: happening in the world, what's
34:57
SPEAKER_02: happening especially in the U.S.,
34:59
SPEAKER_02: the crisis in
35:00
SPEAKER_02: science is helping, because we
35:03
SPEAKER_02: have a big partner that we
35:05
SPEAKER_02: are losing, so now
35:06
SPEAKER_02: it's okay we have to work with
35:08
SPEAKER_02: others that are similarly minded
35:10
SPEAKER_02: all over the world.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: So the collaboration, so
35:13
SPEAKER_02: yes, probably there's still
35:14
SPEAKER_02: competition between let's say
35:16
SPEAKER_02: Canadian scientists and scientists
35:19
SPEAKER_02: associated to with
35:21
SPEAKER_02: Horizone Europe, but more and more
35:23
SPEAKER_02: we say we need to collaborate.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: We need to work together
35:26
SPEAKER_02: if we want in the end
35:28
SPEAKER_02: to have some kind of an impact on
35:30
SPEAKER_02: climate change.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: So I think the
35:31
SPEAKER_02: mindset is changing a little bit.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: And of course one
35:35
SPEAKER_02: of the things we have to do is to
35:37
SPEAKER_02: trust the
35:39
SPEAKER_02: collaborator.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: So often I will say be
35:45
SPEAKER_02: a good collaborator
35:46
SPEAKER_02: instead of competitor,
35:48
SPEAKER_02: collaboration isn't even
35:51
SPEAKER_02: enough.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: It has to be a bit of
35:53
SPEAKER_02: a partnership, like a couple.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: You have good days, you have bad
35:56
SPEAKER_02: days, but you're there
35:58
SPEAKER_02: for the long haul.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: And I think there, what's happening
36:02
SPEAKER_02: again, worldwide is
36:04
SPEAKER_02: helping us in that sense.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: I got a couple more follow-up
36:08
SPEAKER_01: questions on that, whether as a
36:10
SPEAKER_01: competitor or a collaborator,
36:13
SPEAKER_01: how high a priority is science
36:15
SPEAKER_01: diplomacy for Canada
36:18
SPEAKER_01: and for your province at this point?
36:20
SPEAKER_01: Is it essentially a top priority at
36:21
SPEAKER_01: this point?
36:23
SPEAKER_02: I think, yeah, it was
36:24
SPEAKER_02: a few years
36:26
SPEAKER_02: ago when we started to think about
36:28
SPEAKER_02: it, but now more and more,
36:30
SPEAKER_02: especially since we have lost
36:32
SPEAKER_02: one big partner, so science
36:36
SPEAKER_02: policy, science diplomacy is
36:38
SPEAKER_02: seen as something essential.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: We are developing a strategy
36:43
SPEAKER_02: for the province in science
36:44
SPEAKER_02: diplomacy.
36:45
SPEAKER_02: We're not the only ones.
36:46
SPEAKER_02: The Japanese government just
36:47
SPEAKER_02: released their own science
36:49
SPEAKER_02: diplomacy policy.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: So I think all of us
36:52
SPEAKER_02: are realizing that it's
36:55
SPEAKER_02: not the only thing that's needed,
36:56
SPEAKER_02: but certainly in the current world,
36:58
SPEAKER_02: science and science diplomacy is
37:00
SPEAKER_02: a way to move forward, instead of
37:02
SPEAKER_02: just building frontier,
37:04
SPEAKER_02: adding frontier, adding
37:07
SPEAKER_02: walls between countries,
37:09
SPEAKER_02: science can be a bridge.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: So that is very important for us.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: And we started talking about this
37:16
SPEAKER_01: actually before we started recording
37:17
SPEAKER_01: this, a little bit about how
37:20
SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy has been going on
37:21
SPEAKER_01: actually for centuries,
37:24
SPEAKER_01: arguably, just not under that
37:26
SPEAKER_01: name.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering now,
37:28
SPEAKER_01: the U.N. is in the
37:29
SPEAKER_01: process of picking a new
37:31
SPEAKER_01: secretary-general.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: Is it fair to say that the
37:34
SPEAKER_01: secretary-general's job is
37:36
SPEAKER_01: essentially, in some ways,
37:38
SPEAKER_01: the world's top science diplomat?
37:40
SPEAKER_01: Or can you say that the president
37:42
SPEAKER_01: of the European Commission, who
37:44
SPEAKER_01: does happen to be a doctor and a
37:46
SPEAKER_01: politician, is she a science
37:48
SPEAKER_01: diplomat?
37:49
SPEAKER_01: And if you extend that,
37:51
SPEAKER_01: are many of these leadership roles,
37:54
SPEAKER_01: science diplomat
37:56
SPEAKER_01: jobs, whether or not they have
37:57
SPEAKER_01: a background in science and
37:59
SPEAKER_01: diplomacy?
38:01
SPEAKER_02: I think you can
38:03
SPEAKER_02: become a science diplomat
38:05
SPEAKER_02: by practicing it, you don't
38:07
SPEAKER_02: necessarily need to be
38:09
SPEAKER_02: a neuroscientist like me or
38:10
SPEAKER_02: whatever.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: So I think that you can
38:12
SPEAKER_02: learn that.
38:13
SPEAKER_02: You have to be exposed to it for
38:15
SPEAKER_02: sure.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: I think hopefully there
38:18
SPEAKER_02: will be more and more high-level
38:21
SPEAKER_02: decision-makers in government,
38:23
SPEAKER_02: the local and global levels,
38:26
SPEAKER_02: who will be science diplomats.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: It will be great if the next
38:30
SPEAKER_02: secretary-general is a science
38:32
SPEAKER_02: diplomat, or thinks that
38:34
SPEAKER_02: she or he is a scientist diplomat.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: Of course, there are many other
38:37
SPEAKER_02: things that they have to think
38:38
SPEAKER_02: about.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: And today, the multilateral
38:42
SPEAKER_02: organizations are under a
38:44
SPEAKER_02: lot of challenges, but there
38:46
SPEAKER_02: I will argue that science diplomacy
38:48
SPEAKER_02: can help.
38:48
SPEAKER_02: Like cultural - probably
38:49
SPEAKER_02: they need to do both science
38:51
SPEAKER_02: diplomacy, cultural diplomacy,
38:54
SPEAKER_02: and probably economy as well.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: But certainly science should be
38:57
SPEAKER_02: part, one key part of
38:59
SPEAKER_02: this type of job.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: I want to just go back to when you
39:03
SPEAKER_00: mentioned Horizon Europe.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: Where do you see AI
39:08
SPEAKER_00: and technology advances showing
39:10
SPEAKER_00: up in newer projects?
39:11
SPEAKER_00: And is it starting to influence
39:13
SPEAKER_00: how scientific advice is generated
39:16
SPEAKER_00: or used?
39:18
SPEAKER_02: Scientific advice is
39:20
SPEAKER_02: generated most likely,
39:22
SPEAKER_02: used probably by us
39:23
SPEAKER_02: and by different colleagues.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: I will give a talk tomorrow on
39:28
SPEAKER_02: AI and democracy.
39:29
SPEAKER_02: And certainly there is science
39:31
SPEAKER_02: advice, science diplomacy included
39:33
SPEAKER_02: in there.
39:34
SPEAKER_02: So I really
39:36
SPEAKER_02: believe that AI will help science
39:40
SPEAKER_02: advice and science diplomacy,
39:42
SPEAKER_02: but you have be careful also not
39:44
SPEAKER_02: to go to the other extreme,
39:46
SPEAKER_02: that basically all your
39:48
SPEAKER_02: suggestions or recommendations to
39:51
SPEAKER_02: elected officials come
39:53
SPEAKER_02: from algorithms.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: So I think there is a lot still in
39:59
SPEAKER_02: the culture, as I mentioned before,
40:01
SPEAKER_02: and the successful delivery of
40:03
SPEAKER_02: science advice and science
40:04
SPEAKER_02: diplomacy.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: So there are still a lot
40:06
SPEAKER_02: of human traits
40:08
SPEAKER_02: behind science advice
40:10
SPEAKER_02: and science diplomacy.
40:12
SPEAKER_02: I see AI like another field,
40:15
SPEAKER_02: as a tool that can
40:16
SPEAKER_02: help us.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: But it should not become
40:19
SPEAKER_02: what will rule science,
40:22
SPEAKER_02: science diplomacy, or diplomacy
40:24
SPEAKER_00: altogether.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: But it has challenges.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: So we're still in the learning
40:27
SPEAKER_02: phase.
40:27
SPEAKER_02: It's still new.
40:29
SPEAKER_02: It's still changing very
40:32
SPEAKER_02: rapidly.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: And probably, although
40:34
SPEAKER_02: challenging, there will be kind
40:36
SPEAKER_02: of guidelines or
40:38
SPEAKER_02: rules that will be established over
40:40
SPEAKER_02: the next years by various country,
40:42
SPEAKER_02: and that is probably a good thing.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: Since you are a neuroscientist
40:47
SPEAKER_01: and the fields of neurotechnology,
40:49
SPEAKER_01: things like brain-computer
40:50
SPEAKER_01: interfaces, AI,
40:53
SPEAKER_01: all of these things are converging
40:55
SPEAKER_01: in really exciting and
40:57
SPEAKER_01: terrifying ways.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering, how do you
41:00
SPEAKER_01: handle that?
41:01
SPEAKER_01: What kind of advice do you give on
41:03
SPEAKER_01: that?
41:03
SPEAKER_01: Can science diplomacy help
41:05
SPEAKER_01: find ways to
41:07
SPEAKER_01: govern or to
41:10
SPEAKER_01: figure out solutions to these?
41:11
SPEAKER_01: How does that work?
41:14
SPEAKER_02: I think solutions probably would
41:16
SPEAKER_02: be a big word.
41:18
SPEAKER_02: But of course UNESCO, for example,
41:20
SPEAKER_02: had a think tank on
41:22
SPEAKER_02: neurotechnology over the past
41:24
SPEAKER_02: little while.
41:27
SPEAKER_02: I think there is a lot of
41:28
SPEAKER_02: opportunity in them of AI
41:30
SPEAKER_02: and the brain, neurotechnology
41:33
SPEAKER_02: there, repairing brains,
41:35
SPEAKER_02: people that suffer from spinal
41:37
SPEAKER_02: cord injuries, for example.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: I think there are a lot of
41:40
SPEAKER_02: opportunities.
41:42
SPEAKER_02: Where you have to be careful
41:44
SPEAKER_02: is again at the other end of the
41:45
SPEAKER_02: spectrum, the negative side of it,
41:47
SPEAKER_02: that when you start to control the
41:49
SPEAKER_02: brain with various types of devices,
41:52
SPEAKER_02: control learning and memory for
41:53
SPEAKER_02: different purposes.
41:56
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's a field that's
41:58
SPEAKER_02: there, but we need to focus more
42:00
SPEAKER_02: on is, I think, is
42:02
SPEAKER_02: neuroethics.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: What are the ethics about
42:06
SPEAKER_02: brain functions, and
42:07
SPEAKER_02: coming with general guidelines
42:09
SPEAKER_02: globally on that, a bit like we
42:11
SPEAKER_02: did with genomics and
42:13
SPEAKER_02: making human beings, in a sense,
42:15
SPEAKER_02: with technology.
42:17
SPEAKER_02: So I think we need probably
42:18
SPEAKER_02: fairly quickly to come up with
42:20
SPEAKER_02: some kind of a resolution on that
42:22
SPEAKER_02: at the global level.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to move to this
42:27
SPEAKER_00: moment of wonder.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: You've reached the heights of
42:30
SPEAKER_00: global policy and you continue to
42:33
SPEAKER_00: break that ceiling, but you
42:34
SPEAKER_00: still talk about that moment of
42:36
SPEAKER_00: wonder when a student shows you
42:38
SPEAKER_00: something under a microscope that
42:40
SPEAKER_00: maybe no one has ever really seen
42:41
SPEAKER_00: before.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: After 14 years, do
42:44
SPEAKER_00: you still find that wonder in, let's
42:46
SPEAKER_00: say, a Cabinet meeting?
42:50
SPEAKER_02: A good question.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: Probably a bit more challenging,
42:53
SPEAKER_02: I would say.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: That's something hard to
42:58
SPEAKER_02: reproduce in terms of feeling,
43:00
SPEAKER_02: maybe just because as a scientist,
43:02
SPEAKER_02: when you're with your student or
43:04
SPEAKER_02: colleague and you see something
43:07
SPEAKER_02: for the first time
43:09
SPEAKER_02: in the history of mankind,
43:12
SPEAKER_02: this is quite a unique moment.
43:14
SPEAKER_02: Then it takes 10 years to convince
43:16
SPEAKER_02: anyone it's important.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: That's a part of science
43:19
SPEAKER_02: as well.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: When you deal with
43:22
SPEAKER_02: elected officials, with high-level
43:24
SPEAKER_02: policymakers, I
43:26
SPEAKER_02: think probably the moment of
43:27
SPEAKER_02: wonder for me,
43:29
SPEAKER_02: it's probably more when you
43:31
SPEAKER_02: improve on
43:33
SPEAKER_02: the rules, regulations, improve on
43:35
SPEAKER_02: the laws.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: And then this has impact on
43:39
SPEAKER_02: your fellow citizens.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: That's not exactly the same feeling
43:43
SPEAKER_02: that I would express, but it's very
43:44
SPEAKER_02: satisfactory as well.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: And it's rare that you are
43:48
SPEAKER_02: alone there, it's more as a team, I
43:50
SPEAKER_02: would say, to make things like
43:52
SPEAKER_02: that move, and to improve
43:54
SPEAKER_02: on loss, for example, but
43:56
SPEAKER_02: it can be quite satisfactory.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, Dr. Rémi Quirion, thank you so
44:01
SPEAKER_00: much for joining us on The
44:03
SPEAKER_00: Science Diplomat and for reminding
44:05
SPEAKER_00: us that in science,
44:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't know is often the most
44:09
SPEAKER_00: important thing you can say.