Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host: Renae Johnson, LPCC, ATR-BC. Trauma and Dance Movement Therapy

Transcript

Guest Host: Renae Johnson, LPCC, ATR-BC. Trauma and Dance Movement Therapy · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: you in all the while keeping the heart of this
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. I am Renee Johnson,
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: the CEO and founder of Open Space Therapy Collective, and
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I have our clinical director Kristin Crowe with us today
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: and we are so excited to be guest hosting for
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  Speaker 2: guy while he takes a break and hopefully is on
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: a beach drinking of my tie somewhere and relaxing. Christin
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: is so good to see you. You too, Hi. So
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  Speaker 2: today we're going to dive into trauma and dance therapy.
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  Speaker 2: So Kristen is a dance movement therapist and has been
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: in practice since twenty thirteen and specializes a lot in trauma,
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  Speaker 2: and our group practice specializes specifically in working with queer
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  Speaker 2: and trans folks, so there's a huge overlap here with trauma.
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  Speaker 2: So before we dive in, Kristin, can you give us
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  Speaker 2: like a brief overview of what dance movement therapy is.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so our current definition from the American Dance Therapy
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  Speaker 3: Association is Dance movement therapy is the psychotherapeutic use of
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  Speaker 3: movement to promote emotional, social, cognitive, and physical integration of
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  Speaker 3: the individual. And I feel like that's a really fancy
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  Speaker 3: way of saying that we use movement to help you
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  Speaker 3: integrate the things that need integrating and to help you
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  Speaker 3: feel better.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I it is a fancy way of saying that
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  Speaker 2: what you do. Like, one of the things we hear
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  Speaker 2: from clients a lot is like, oh, I don't need
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  Speaker 2: to dance. That's that I'm not a dancer. And the
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  Speaker 2: name is a little bit miss right, because a lot
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  Speaker 2: of what you do is this really deep body work.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. I like to preface that like, I'm not
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  Speaker 3: going to get up and have you learn choreography and
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  Speaker 3: I'm not going to make you do interpretive dance. It
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  Speaker 3: is the movement that comes from you. It is the
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: things that your body needs to move out. And however
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  Speaker 3: that looks is going to be great. And it might
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  Speaker 3: look beautiful and it might look ugly, and there's really
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  Speaker 3: no attachment to that, it's just what needs to come out.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I think for our audience or guys audience today,
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  Speaker 2: they're probably used to hearing about a lot about somatic
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  Speaker 2: work and somatic experiencing work, and I want to frame
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  Speaker 2: dance movement therapy as maybe a sibling to that type
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  Speaker 2: of work. Is it's not the same, but it's really
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  Speaker 2: getting in there and doing a lot of that deep
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  Speaker 2: body work, a lot of that subconscious work. Would you
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  Speaker 2: agree with that?
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  Speaker 3: Yep, definitely there's a lot of overlap for sure.
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  Speaker 2: What I something you've heard from a client who's worked
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  Speaker 2: with you for a while who's maybe hesitant going into this,
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  Speaker 2: but then coming out of it and having worked with
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  Speaker 2: you been like, oh my god, length length blank happened
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  Speaker 2: because of utilizing dance movement therapy.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. I have a client that I've been seeing for
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  Speaker 3: a while who was who came to me through another
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  Speaker 3: clinician who left and so they were real hesitant to
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  Speaker 3: work with a dance therapist at all, And we started
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: doing some bodywork about people pleasing and about not being
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: able to hold boundaries, and as they started to notice
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  Speaker 3: the sensations in their body and were able to move
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: through them and integrate them. They have been able to
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  Speaker 3: really step into their own they hold boundaries, they make
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: more time for themselves, and they just feel like a
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: lot more empowered to make their own decisions. And I
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  Speaker 3: think that's been really beautiful work. And now they ask
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  Speaker 3: for somatic stuff as we go, so I think that's
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  Speaker 3: a big win.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing. I always love I personally. I always
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  Speaker 2: love the clients who are a little hesitant about like
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  Speaker 2: somatic work or dance movement work and then start asking
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  Speaker 2: for it. It's a real sign that it's really connecting.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely same.
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  Speaker 2: If so, dance mooment therapy is definitely like a holistic approach, right,
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  Speaker 2: it's bringing in all the different parts of this self.
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  Speaker 2: How would somebody starting out in dance movement therapy, or
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  Speaker 2: how would you, as somebody starting out in dance movement therapy,
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  Speaker 2: help introduce it to them without them getting overwhelmed?
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  Speaker 3: I start really small. I am a huge believer that
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  Speaker 3: everything we do is movement. Your breath is movement, the
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: way that you hold your posture is movement. The way
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  Speaker 3: that you blink is movement. And so if we just
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: start really internally, like even if we're listening to your heartbeat.
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  Speaker 3: That's a movement. Is your heart beating a lot faster?
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  Speaker 3: Is it slowing down? And using that those kinds of
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  Speaker 3: things as internal measures and just seeing like, okay, see
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  Speaker 3: your body's already moving, it's already doing the things. It's
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  Speaker 3: already telling you how it needs to move and how
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  Speaker 3: it's reacting. How can we engage that a little bit further?
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  Speaker 3: And it doesn't have to be this big extravagant thing
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  Speaker 3: people are a little more used to, I'll say it
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  Speaker 3: like interacting with their breath.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and which those small starts, what do people start
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  Speaker 2: to notice? Like what are you hoping that they'll start
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  Speaker 2: to connect to?
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  Speaker 3: I feel like the biggest one that I hope they
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  Speaker 3: connect and noticing they have a body at all.
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  Speaker 2: It's amazing how much that is a thing.
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  Speaker 3: It is so a lot of times we'll start I'm
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  Speaker 3: like okay, so like take a deep breath, and like
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  Speaker 3: where does that go? And like I have no idea,
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  Speaker 3: goes in through my nose and then hole. Okay, So
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  Speaker 3: maybe that's where we start. And sometimes it's just practicing. Okay,
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  Speaker 3: can like we feel the breath going into your throat. Okay,
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  Speaker 3: that's a good start. How about into your chest, how
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  Speaker 3: about into your diaphragm, how about into your stomach, and
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  Speaker 3: just kind of noticing how all of these different pieces
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  Speaker 3: are connected. I don't believe that, like the mind and
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  Speaker 3: body are two separate things, but I believe that they
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  Speaker 3: can speak two different languages, and so like I kind
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: of getting people to have the translation happen so they
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  Speaker 3: can talk to the whole being. That's really important.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, as you're saying this, I have a client that
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: just like flashes and front of me because when I
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  Speaker 2: first started working with her as somebody who experienced a
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  Speaker 2: lot of trauma, she really struggled to even do that,
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  Speaker 2: Like that was completely overwhelming to be like blow my throat, no, no, no,
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  Speaker 2: that we don't go there. What do you see with
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  Speaker 2: your clients who get overwhelmed or maybe stop or can't
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  Speaker 2: connect to the body even with those beginning exercises when
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: there's trauma involved.
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  Speaker 3: I believe that the body needs to be able to
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  Speaker 3: give consent to whatever we're going to be doing. So
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  Speaker 3: if we can't breathe into that, okay, Like what does
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: it feel like to touch your own hand? What does
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: it feel like to squeeze? Like can we do something
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  Speaker 3: that seems a little bit more external than it does,
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: like an internal experience, and just see if we can
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  Speaker 3: get folks to connect in that way. And as they
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: start to settle, like Okay, well, actually I can take it.
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  Speaker 3: I can take a deeper breath, I can feel some
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  Speaker 3: like tension in my shoulders. Okay, what does that need
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  Speaker 3: to do? And just go with what the body feels
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  Speaker 3: comfortable with expressing and then they can take it from there.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, in working with consent, because I think a
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  Speaker 2: lot of therapists, especially if they're new to doing somatic work,
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  Speaker 2: get really excited because sure, it as a therapy tool
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  Speaker 2: is really exciting, It's really interesting. There's a lot that
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  Speaker 2: the body knows and can help the person process through.
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  Speaker 2: And we tend to conflate like helping push a client
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  Speaker 2: forward with pushing past consent about the body. How do
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: you differentiate those those two things? I ask?
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: I do a lot of permission asking and sessions when
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: we're doing specifically somatic things, I ask, how is your
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: body reacting to that? Does it feel like it's okay
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  Speaker 3: to go further? Can I push a little bit? And
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  Speaker 3: most after we've developed like a relationship, clients will say yeah,
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  Speaker 3: you can push me, but I might say, no, that's cool.
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  Speaker 3: I'm working at the pace of this. I think something
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  Speaker 3: that you know, as new therapists are newly practicing somatic therapists,
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  Speaker 3: you see how this works so quickly and so deeply
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  Speaker 3: that you're like, I just want to get in there
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  Speaker 3: and do the thing. But a person's nervous system needs
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: to re calibrate when a big shift happens. And so
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: if you go through and you like rip a big
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: thing out and you're like, look at all this stuff,
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  Speaker 3: getting back from that dysregulation is really hard, and unless
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: you've done all of the things to make sure that
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: you can get back into regulation, then you're doing a
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  Speaker 3: lot more damage than you are doing, and then you
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  Speaker 3: are helping. So I always tell my clients it's not
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  Speaker 3: feel like it's like I'm going really slow, but you
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: might notice really big changes off the butt and all
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  Speaker 3: of that is by design.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well said, I think It's really important for us
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  Speaker 2: working with clients who have a lot of trauma, is
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  Speaker 2: to pay attention to that consent and our desire to
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  Speaker 2: join the client, because even though our intention might be
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: to join with them and help them, most of our
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  Speaker 2: clients their consent has been trampled over time and time
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  Speaker 2: again to the point where they may even say yes,
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  Speaker 2: but their body doesn't mean yes and they may not
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  Speaker 2: have connection to that yes. So making sure even if
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: when they're saying yes, that their body posture and the
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: things around them and their tone and everything is saying yes,
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  Speaker 2: not just I'm trying to make my therapist happy and
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: trying to do therapy right, so I'm going to say yes,
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  Speaker 2: we can go into this.
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  Speaker 3: Work absolutely, And that comes from and like noticing their
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: breath and their tension and all of that, and then
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: when I noticed that there's a disconnect between those things,
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  Speaker 3: that'll be like does your body feel tighter then when
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: we started and kind of helping them understand like where
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: their actual yes and noe is and what it feels.
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  Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, because that yes and no, like everything else,
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  Speaker 2: lives in the body, and so helping them connect to
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  Speaker 2: that is also like a really great intro tool intro
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: goal as you're getting into that this type of post YEP,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: what other things do you see dance, movement, therapy, and
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  Speaker 2: trauma engaging together, Like in what ways has it helped
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: been helpful and in what ways does it freak a
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  Speaker 2: client out.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: I can think of I can think of an example
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  Speaker 3: with a client who we wanted to do like a
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: really basic somatic like grounding something, and uh, we were
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: just starting with a breathing exercise and they breathed into
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: a part of their back that sent them into like
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: a freak out and we had to pross like we
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: had to stop for a minute and then figure out
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: what that was. And so like as we as we
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: like slowed that down and like took our time to
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: go through it, they were like, oh, like this is
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: actually connected to this specific traumatic experience. And they came
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: back the next week and they're like, I haven't been
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: able to breathe this deeply in years, And I didn't
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: realize that I couldn't breathe this deeply until we explored that.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: And then we stopped somatic work for a little bit
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  Speaker 3: because that needed to just be like integrated and like
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: understand how their body could take in oxygen and just
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: kind of let that.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Settle. Yeah, it's so interesting with trauma, parts of the
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: body just not only like shut down, but almost like
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: calcify and like detach themselves or remove themselves from the
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: rest of the system.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and that shows up, you know, like that
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  Speaker 3: shows up in actual physical things, right, Like there are
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: so many somatic complaints that come with trauma, like sleep
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: disturbances or chronic pain, or like all the systems in
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: the body gashtrotestinal, cardiovascular, neurological, respiratory, like all of those
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: things are affected by trauma. And sometimes we don't realize
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: that that's what it is until we start moving around,
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: and we don't realize that we're making adjustments in our
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: life to account for those things, until we start exploring
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: how they're how they've been removed, how they've been hardened.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: What was it using this client as an example, what
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: was it like for them to come back and be like,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm breathing, and then have you say great,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: we're going to stay here for a while. And I'm
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: guessing it wasn't just like five minutes, but it was
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: like sessions of like, we're going to take time to
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: regulate in this space and get you to this new spaceline.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: It was a little it was a little bit of
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: disappointment that we couldn't do more and a little bit
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: of relief that we weren't gonna do more.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: They came in like, so, can we do more?
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: And I was like, let's talk about that for a minute,
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: and they were like, no, that makes sense, that's probably good.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: I think I'm gonna enjoy breathing for a minute, and
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: it's like, great, gonna enjoy breathing for a minute.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: It's so important because in a lot of the trainings
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: that like any of the body centered trainings that will
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: go to the trainers are giving a lot of information, right,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: And that's what we're going in right where we're like,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: we need every minute of this training to be like
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: giving me information, and then we forget that all of
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: that information needs to be stretched over a big timeline
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: when we're working with clients and it's not like great,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: every session we're going to go through and do all
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: of these exercises and then you're going to feel like
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: this by the end of our fifty minutes. That's yeah. Yeah.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: And I'm guilty of this as like a supervisor too,
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: Like I'll go and I'm like, okay, so we're going
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: to talk about this thing.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: I need this tool.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: Okay, here's this tool. Wait, hold on, hold on, I
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: need this to be over like a six month period.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: Tool this is not like, this is not a one
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: and done session kind of thing, Like this is how
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: we space it out.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in working with trauma, what are some of the
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: stages of feeling that you'll see in whether that's body
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: changes or how they're engaging with the world or how
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: they're feeling about themselves. What are some of the big shifts?
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: I think the first one is like that awareness that
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: it's there, right, the awareness that they hold their posture
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: a certain way, that they breathe a certain way, that
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: they have trouble making eye contact, that whatever that piece is,
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: and then noticing how they can shift that, like is
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: there something that feels stuck that if we move this
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: certain way, if we comfort our body, if we integrate
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: it in this way, that like I can shift that.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: And as they sort of practice that tool, then noticing
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: that there is change that's happening, right, they need to
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: it less often it feels more natural to be moving
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: in this certain way. And I love it when I
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: can see a client and they like no longer come
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: in super hunched over, but they're like sitting up, or
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: they actually like relax into the couch, or they don't
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: have to be all like tense and frost and all
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: sorts of things. And that's often when they start to,
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: you know, say it like, hey, I've actually been feeling
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: a lot better. This was really easy for me to
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: make this decision. Or I stood up to this person
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: and I held this boundary and they all it all
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: sort of like coalesces together sentence to the question does does?
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: And And I love how you're describing even like stood
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: up to somebody as a body movement, right, And so yeah,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: I love how you're tracking not just the person's emotional experience,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: but also how their body is reflecting that the person's growth.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And like somebody who's like strong and self actualized and
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: has boundaries and is confident isn't punched over and like
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: scooting through a room. And we intrinsically know that, but
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: it's really important for that to be something that you're
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: tracking as you're you're going through this dance movement therapy
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: work with a client. Mm hmm, yeah, as we're coming
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: to our last few minutes, what are some takeaways or
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: some tips that you'd give people who are audience listeners
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: of guys who are mostly like trauma professionals or people
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: who are very interested in trauma things that they can
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: start doing to introduce themselves to dance quivement therapy.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Sure, let's see, I guess I can go. But both
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: directions like I love I love a good body scan,
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: like I love that as like a beginning, even like
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: a beginning to session. Right, it's like, okay, so we
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: came in, like how is your body feeling? What does
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: it need? What did you bring in with you? Like
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: your brain is often going a million miles a minute,
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: but your body is usually holding Like, this is the
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: thing I actually need to talk about. So if we settle,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: can we talk about that? So like having a person
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: ground in whatever way feels natural to you, and then
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: starting from the top or starting from the bottom, depending
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: on how you like to process. And then when you
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: find a sensation when it feels tight, like how can
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: you move it? How do you need to breathe into it?
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: And then you know, I find that a lot of
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: times something just comes up from that. And then the
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: other end of the spectrum, if you feel slightly less inhibited, uh,
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: at the end of a hard day or at the
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: end of you know, or if you have something that
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: needs I don't know, it needs to get out.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: You need to shake it off.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: You need to do whatever you've sad, you're angry, or
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: you're happy. Throw on some music that matches your mood
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: and like just dance around that like dance around in
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: the kitchen, thing to your favorite music has a bunch
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: of merit to it. The caveat is most people don't
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: feel comfortable doing that with other people. So do it
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: on your own. See how it feels. Be really interested
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: to see how goes.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially like not when you can do it alone.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure everybody knows this, but like, just like
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: that freedom that your body has to do what it
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: wants is so rare and we get it so infrequently,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: and there's so much that can come up in that
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: and imagery or thoughts or where your brain goes, or
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: how your body moves or doesn't move, or where pain
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: shows up and doesn't doesn't show up. It's really powerful. Yep.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: I don't ever force your body to move away that
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: it doesn't want to move. That's period. All the things fitness, dancing, therapy,
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: talk to it, go with how it needs to go,
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: and might be surprised by the results.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Cool. Well, thank you so much. If any of you
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: who are listening do any of these exercises, Please let
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: us know. You can comment on Guys Podcast below, or
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: you can reach out to Kristen and I at social
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: media at openspace Therapy Collective dot com and we will
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: hopefully see you soon and hopefully Guy will have us back.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And thank you so much to Guy and his team
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: and the Trauma Therapy Podcast team for having us. Thank
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: you so much, Bye y'all.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Byeman common S