Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How Curious Minds Build Better Companies in Tech with Henny Hoekstra | Ep. 120

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How Curious Minds Build Better Companies in Tech with Henny Hoekstra | Ep. 120 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:10
Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
0:13
My name is dear Kanupkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
0:16
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
0:20
each other. Join me on a journey into the
0:23
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
0:28
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
0:32
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
0:36
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
0:45
Disrupting Tech and thank you for tuning into episode 120.
0:51
In high school, Annie Hooks I was told that computer science
0:55
wasn't necessary. At 20, she never imagined having
1:00
a future in tech. Yet her curiosity carried her
1:04
from growth hacker to co-owner of Prevo, turning doubt into
1:10
fuel for building better companies.
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In this episode of Women Disrupting Tech, Henny is our
1:16
guide as we explore how curiosity shapes leadership.
1:20
It's a story about courage, resilience, and building teams
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that last. By listening, you'll discover
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what it takes to build better, more resilient companies in
1:31
tech, how she shifted from being an employee to being a co-owner,
1:36
and why a curious mind is a joy forever.
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Her story is proof that companies thrive when leaders
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take curious invest in people, and they are to follow their own
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spark. So when you're ready to discover
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how curious minds build better companies in tech, please
1:54
welcome to Women Disrupting Tech Henny hooksta henny hooksta.
2:00
Good afternoon, welcome to women disrupting tech.
2:03
Question I always start with is how you got into your current
2:07
position or current role as a director and co-owner of Prevo?
2:12
Yeah, I think it's not the most logical story.
2:15
Looking at my study backgrounds, I studied international business
2:18
and most people when they finish the masters, they just go to
2:21
corporates or the BIG4 consultancy.
2:25
It's more like a logical path. But when I graduated, I was
2:29
travelling for a while and I was thinking like, what do I really
2:32
want to do? And I really felt strongly that
2:35
I wanted to work somewhere on a company that I could still form
2:39
a little bit, but where I also make some impacts.
2:43
And I worked before during my internship at a software
2:46
company. So when I finished travelling, I
2:50
was just looking for vacancies and I saw there was a company
2:53
that was launching a new product called Pluvo.
2:56
And I looked at the website and I tried it out.
2:59
I was like, this might be interesting.
3:01
And I knew back then that growth hacking was really cool thing,
3:04
you know, so I really want to be a growth hacker.
3:07
I really liked the marketing part of my studies.
3:09
I was like, I'm going to be a growth hacker.
3:10
It sounds really cool. And so I applied and I started
3:15
working here. Most of our team was then
3:18
working on the other company and me, the founder and two
3:22
developers were actually responsible for building Pluvo.
3:25
And I was just responsible like, hey, make the company grow.
3:29
And they hired me from a marketing perspective.
3:32
But you know when you do marketing, well, you probably
3:35
get some leads as well. You need to do some sales.
3:39
And then then I rolled into sales and yeah, actually from
3:43
then I started getting my own team and at one point they asked
3:47
me if I want to become one of the Co owners of the company.
3:51
Cool. Yeah, so proof.
3:56
Proof. How is a tech company?
4:00
What what made it interesting for you to work in tech?
4:05
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I must say, if I look
4:09
back in my life, I've always been very interested in computer
4:13
stuff, but when I went to high school, it was a little bit old
4:17
fashioned. I I want to do like informatics
4:20
as a as a subject. And they said like, hey, no,
4:22
it's not necessary. So I was just going the
4:25
economics path, but fortunately I ended up at the University of
4:29
Twente, which is like a Technical University.
4:31
So I did an alpha studies at a Technical University.
4:35
So that meant that a lot of people that I met there, they
4:38
were quite technical. And when I was looking for my
4:41
bachelor teachers graduation internship, I walked around in
4:45
the business days we have like these business days, you can
4:47
meet some companies and they're all quite technical.
4:51
And then I saw these guys standing there with a Fiat
4:54
glasses and I was like, oh, let's try that out.
4:57
Well, I didn't have my balance. I kept falling over, started
5:01
talking with him and he was like, hey, we want to expand to
5:04
Germany. Are you interested in doing an
5:07
internship on that? So I was interested because I
5:11
was studying international business, always loved the
5:13
German language. So I was like, ah, let's do
5:16
that. And then I came there to that
5:17
company. They had two offices, one in the
5:20
Netherlands, the arms forward and one and ends today.
5:24
Amish for was more about the salespeople market people, but
5:27
two days a week. I wasn't yesterday between the
5:29
developers and then I saw what they were doing and that they
5:34
were constantly improving the product and there were like new
5:37
releases and new IDs and they were the whole part of hey, we
5:42
have an ID, we want to transform the products and then being able
5:45
to do it as quickly as in one day.
5:48
That kind of fascinated me. I was like, no, this is so
5:51
different than, I don't know, buying a vacuum cleaner.
5:54
It's a product you can improve every day.
5:57
And there I really got along pretty well with the developers
6:01
as well. And that's the point that I
6:03
really fell in love with text. It was like, oh, I really like
6:06
this. But if you've asked me when I
6:08
was 20 if I would end up in tech, I would probably have said
6:11
no. But then again, what I'm hearing
6:12
you say is that it's a lot like growth hacking the way they
6:17
developed. Yeah, kind of.
6:19
Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that they're like very growth
6:22
hiking minded with the whole thing as we have an idea and
6:26
let's test it quickly, let's build it.
6:28
Yeah, sorry, the fastness. Of that, that that's that's
6:31
fascinating, isn't it? Yeah, You can always improve.
6:36
OK. So it's it's it's in part also
6:39
the pace at which things were happening.
6:42
Yeah. I really liked that and also the
6:44
fact that, so the alignment between for example, a customer
6:49
and the software, I mean, I believe that that they they
6:52
should be really close to each other and that's, that's also
6:55
possible. So as we as, as commercial team
6:58
can spot the trends and the things that our customers want.
7:01
And it's quite easy to get to the product team and discuss
7:04
that if you have a physical product.
7:07
Because my other company is in wine, The wine is here now, 1500
7:12
bottles. If someone says I would like to
7:14
have this change, that's not possible.
7:16
So that the fast pace of of, of innovating, but also improving
7:20
for your customers, that's, that's yeah.
7:22
For me, that fascinates me every day.
7:26
OK. So I want to switch gears a bit
7:29
in in terms of moving back to Provo, but also maybe the the
7:34
guys you worked with in Ends today during your internship
7:39
where there was this an old guys team that you ended up working
7:43
in as a girl. Yeah, So it ends today.
7:46
There were some female females, but there were not on the tech
7:50
sides. So we had, we had a few, mostly
7:53
men, I would say like 90% men and at believable, I was the
7:58
only women for a long time. OK, so how, how did you make
8:04
that work for yourself? Because yeah, you did.
8:08
You have to sort of get the respect of those guys.
8:12
And so I have one advantage when I came here and that was that I
8:15
did it before and I studied ends today, which is like a film.
8:18
Male dominated field also lived together with four guys in one
8:23
house a long time. I was the only girl.
8:25
So I thought I would be prepared that I wasn't prepared on their
8:30
own preparedness. So I came here and I think they
8:36
were a little bit afraid of me, I would say.
8:39
And later on, yeah, well, and later on they taught me because
8:43
now I, we got along pretty well as well as.
8:44
Yeah, it was not only because you were a women, but also you
8:47
were a commercial person. So that's that's a different
8:50
type. They talk more, you know,
8:52
they're more enthusiastic and and they really didn't know what
8:56
to do with it. And I must unless you say they
8:58
always did a lunch walk. But when I started, they, they
9:02
quit doing the lunch walk. So I was always working, walking
9:04
with one person. At one point he said to me like,
9:07
yeah, we normally walk with much more people, but not since
9:11
you're here. So that was kind of a shocker
9:13
for me. So they they they really had a
9:16
problem adopt adapting. To.
9:21
Yeah, but what? Do you know if it was more
9:24
personality wise? Because in the sales people are
9:28
you're stereotype developer, let's say.
9:32
Yeah, I think it's a combination probably.
9:34
I mean, I, I think I just brought a whole new personality
9:37
to the company. If you look at the current team
9:40
we have, it's, it's much, much more diverse in personalities
9:44
and also male, female. But I think it was a combination
9:48
of that. And also like maybe we females,
9:52
we, we react different to things.
9:55
We, we bring a different energy and, and, and, and it just took
9:59
them time for them to, to adapt to that.
10:01
And, but I knew that before from the other software company
10:03
because that was the same. But The thing is, if you are
10:07
interested in their product and not only having the classical
10:11
field, like, oh, you sell something people, we don't have
10:15
something. I do as a salesperson is only
10:17
selling the product that we offer.
10:19
And I share a vision And it's not like, Hey, I'm selling all
10:22
kinds of stuff and then go to development here, you develop
10:25
this. It's the other way around.
10:27
They they gained trust over time and I think now they're quite
10:31
happy that I, that I joined. OK, how long did it did it take
10:35
I. Would say 2-3 months maybe.
10:38
Oh, so it happened relatively quick.
10:42
Now I I I for for a moment I thought OK, this took a year or
10:46
so. It was OK.
10:48
They are dead quickly. OK, so the lunch walk resumed
10:52
after a couple of months. Yeah.
10:55
But it's interesting because this year we also hired a
10:58
different personality for sales, like I would say like a really
11:02
salesperson sales. And I also saw that the company
11:05
had to adapt to this. And now like it's always about
11:09
adaption, like, OK, something's changing, what's happening and
11:12
then we get a new equilibrium together.
11:14
So I think that's what happened as well when I joined the
11:16
company. OK, so it was more like the
11:19
comp, Yeah, everyone getting to grips with or getting to know
11:24
each other and getting used to each other.
11:27
Yeah, I think so. And it's probably not only
11:29
because I'm female. OK, did you do anything special
11:34
to to make it work or to speed up the problem?
11:38
Yeah, showing interest in because I know, like I, I joined
11:43
us like the first non tech, I would say, but fortunately I'm,
11:48
I'm very interested in decks and I just really want to know like,
11:50
Hey, where are you working on and how does it work?
11:52
And, and and they also feel felt respected in their work.
11:57
So I think it goes often wrong if we don't talk with each other
12:00
and if we don't take interest in each other, right then I think
12:03
it's as commercial team, it's also very important to
12:06
understand what product is doing and vice versa.
12:11
So I think that really helped me finding my place in the company.
12:15
OK, cool. How is that you, you said you
12:19
you're, you have a much more diverse team right now from when
12:23
you started. How has that led to a change and
12:27
what is the change like? Yeah, For me, it feels like the
12:32
company is changing all the time when we add different people.
12:37
You see now like we built much more of a commercial team.
12:40
There's much more. So first one of the founders and
12:45
I, we were doing like everything commercial strategize and you
12:49
know, the people kind of followed I would say.
12:51
And now we have like more people that also have a lot of ideas
12:55
about the growth and they are like really committed and very
13:00
enthusiastic about the company. And suddenly you get completely
13:03
different visions and stuff, things you never thought about.
13:06
So that really helps us as well in developing the the company,
13:10
hiring different personalities so you get different
13:13
perspectives on stuff. You're a director now.
13:15
You're quite young for a director.
13:18
How do people respond to that, especially the new people and
13:21
also client new clients? Yeah, that's an interesting
13:24
question. I mean, I joined Pluto when I
13:26
was 24 and because you're like start up, start up quite fast.
13:31
I had to sit next to directors of 50 plus, you know, and it
13:37
took me a while to get used to death.
13:39
I really had like the imposter syndrome.
13:41
I was like, oh, I'm young, I'm a woman and what do I know?
13:45
And then I, I learned a little bit to fake it till you make
13:48
because I was like the way you walk in a meeting.
13:52
Like I had like some some people saying stuff when I was younger
13:57
about my age and stuff like that.
14:00
And that doesn't happen anymore. But because I know a lot about
14:04
our field, about learning, about development, about our platform.
14:07
So for now, it's not a thing anymore.
14:10
But when I was younger and a little bit more insecure, they
14:13
really picked on me on that. Like, aren't you too young for
14:16
this? No, I never heard this again.
14:18
I only have people saying, oh, you do respect that, that you're
14:21
already doing it this at this age.
14:24
So do you have to respond? Well, yeah, that's.
14:28
So do you have to? Yeah.
14:30
Do you have to feeling that you have to prove yourself a bit
14:33
more as a woman though? Always.
14:36
But I, I yesterday I had a discussion.
14:38
I also am in a young management. It's a club with a lot of people
14:43
below the age of 40 that all are entrepreneurs or high managers.
14:48
And I had a discussion with with a friend of mine from there and,
14:52
and she has to say like, you always have to show and prove
14:57
that you know what you're talking about.
15:00
And for me, it does feel a little bit more that I have to
15:03
really show that and be a little bit more dominant to get respect
15:06
and then we can continue the conversation.
15:09
But that's something I hear from more women that are playing
15:12
under higher level. You have to show that you
15:15
actually know what you're talking about.
15:17
It's not that you automatically get respected because you're
15:20
there in your function. Do do you think that's because
15:25
you're a woman or because of your age?
15:29
Might be a combination, but we all know about the biases,
15:33
right? If you look at politicians, how
15:35
they describe men versus how they describe women, I'm quite
15:38
sure there are a lot of biases about female directors as well.
15:42
So how do you deal with that? Because I can imagine that you
15:46
don't want to be like dominant if you don't have to.
15:51
Like sometimes you have to be. It depends on which personality
15:54
type you're dealing with, right? Like sometimes you have like
15:58
really red people and I don't know, sometimes also have to use
16:00
my red part. But I once was at the podcast of
16:05
Wheel of SAS and then Johan, you might know him as well.
16:08
He told me like we don't need more masculine females of
16:12
females that try to be masculine.
16:14
We just need to the the feminine energy in it.
16:17
And I also tried to take that into account that I have to work
16:20
for my own power and not try to be something that I am not.
16:23
Yeah. Which doesn't mean I'm never
16:24
dominant because I also have the part in me, but it should be
16:28
fake. It should be like how I am in
16:30
the situation should be me and not someone else trying to be
16:33
like a dominant man. No, I should try to use my
16:35
femininity as well and. So how do you, how do you do
16:39
that? How do you mix that?
16:41
How do you find the right mix? That's a good question because I
16:45
don't know if people can can see what we're doing, but I, I, I
16:47
smile a lot and that that helps a lot.
16:49
I think. I mean, that's something I, I
16:51
normally do as well, but I know that I, I have some kind of
16:55
energy and, and, and people like that most of the time and it
16:58
makes them happy and enthusiastic.
17:00
And I think that's one of my core qualities as well.
17:03
However, when I'm negotiating, because I also do negotiation,
17:07
yeah, then then I, I will tap into that order.
17:10
Maybe more rapt energy zone. Yeah.
17:14
But is that also because at that point it's sort of expected,
17:19
it's part of the game that you have to be able to bluff a bit?
17:24
Maybe yes, but sometimes people kind of get can get aggressive
17:27
in conversations, right? And then you don't want to be
17:31
nice. Like sometimes people say, yeah,
17:33
yes, I really want this and this, this, and some people
17:35
could be like this in a negotiation.
17:39
Then I don't want to be the nice smiling women because then we're
17:42
negotiating. And most of the time, that's
17:45
what I mostly say about don't take that personal.
17:48
It's it's the negotiation game. And I had to learn that from
17:51
male Pierce that hey, Henny, it's not personal.
17:55
Sometimes it's like a game, the negotiation.
17:58
So yeah, maybe it it is. It is what you're saying that
18:01
I'm using that because part of the game.
18:04
Yeah, I can imagine. Have you had any mentors that
18:10
that taught you how to how to function?
18:16
Well, what I quickly found out when I started here is that I
18:20
was looking for knowledge which I couldn't find in the company.
18:24
So quite fast. I was going to all kinds of
18:28
start up events, join some communities.
18:31
We're also with young management.
18:33
That's a really good community for me because you can just talk
18:36
about the things you're facing. And I have some people,
18:39
sometimes I drink coffee with them or I ask them some stuff.
18:42
They are older, mostly meal though.
18:45
But I kind of ask them on those fires like hey, what should I do
18:48
in this situation? What should be the next step?
18:51
Because I really found out that not all knowledge is inside the
18:55
company because you are building the company.
18:58
So you have to look for the people, and I sometimes call
19:01
them mentors because it's just the people that I asked for
19:05
advice to. OK, so do you, you have, let's
19:09
say, a network of people that you have to talk to, to ask for
19:12
advice? Exactly.
19:16
I think that's one of the most important things of, you know,
19:19
being successful, trying to become successful is find the
19:24
right people around you because you also will need people that
19:28
support you. Because I also went when I was
19:31
saying like, hey, I might be becoming a co-owner of Pluto,
19:35
that I had quite some friends saying like, hey, you shouldn't
19:38
do it. It's a risk.
19:41
I mean, you just don't become as you have to buy part of the
19:44
company and it's kind of a risk. And if I wouldn't have other
19:48
people surrounding me, maybe from the network clubs, some
19:53
other entrepreneurs that I knew, they really were like, hey, you
19:56
should do it. Take the chance.
19:57
And maybe like, because I don't have a family network that would
20:00
support me that as well, because I'm not an entrepreneurial
20:03
family, maybe if I wouldn't have the right people surrounding me,
20:07
maybe I never dared to take the leap so.
20:10
In, in, in female leadership, it's so important to also have
20:13
people surrounding you that support you.
20:16
OK, I want to double click on one one thing at at some point
20:20
you get the offer to become a co-owner.
20:23
What what changed? Did you observe any change in in
20:26
how people response responded to you as a person before and
20:32
after? And I'll, I'll preface this
20:35
because I I talked to Esther Bishop.
20:38
It's episode 93 for those who are listening.
20:42
And in the episode she shares about her experience
20:47
transitioning from an employee at an e-learning company to
20:53
being a co-owner and that all of a sudden for her, things change,
20:59
even though for her Co workers, then all of a sudden they became
21:06
her employees. Yeah.
21:08
And that's that's sort of shifted dynamics and energy.
21:12
I was wondering how that was with you.
21:15
Yeah, it's interesting because sometimes change are subtle, but
21:21
I think the person who had the hardest time with the change was
21:24
me, because I was already kind of leading the company from a
21:29
commercial perspective, maybe some colleagues now.
21:34
So she's one of the Co owners, but I think a lot of customers
21:38
already thought somehow that I was a co-owner.
21:40
So that that was doing pretty well.
21:42
Only sales negotiations went easier because suddenly I can
21:44
say I'm the co-owner and then they kind of sound stupid, but
21:47
they kind of respect you a little bit more.
21:49
But for me, I've worked, they were my bosses, my Co founders
21:55
for a couple of years and suddenly I was their equal.
21:58
And like they're 50 plus. That's why I love that I took
22:01
the chance. Like they, they, they, they are
22:03
the, the, the white Gray men and they, they supported me and for
22:06
my young age and gave me this chance.
22:09
They didn't find it hard that I joined.
22:12
But for myself, I was always like, you're still in my head.
22:16
It took so much time that they to shift that from home.
22:19
They are my bosses to they are my equals.
22:21
And I think it took me two years to get to that point that I also
22:24
saw myself as equal. That was the hardest part, so.
22:28
What did you have to shift in your mind?
22:32
That my opinion is equally important and that they are not
22:36
anymore the, the, the final decision makers, but that I am
22:39
also one of them. And it's not that they they
22:42
acted like I wasn't one of them. It was more mentally in my own
22:45
ads that I really had to make the shift like, oh, I'm
22:48
important, more important this now as well.
22:50
And I can also make decisions on my own instead of like always
22:54
having to fertify that. Yeah, so you had to learn to
22:57
take space. Yeah, I had to learn to take
23:00
space and they never worked against me.
23:03
It was really a thing for myself.
23:05
Yeah. So did you have any help with
23:07
that? Well, first I didn't really talk
23:11
about it, you know, And I was a little bit stubborn.
23:14
I was like, oh, this will be fine.
23:16
And at one point I was blocking myself.
23:22
I felt like I was blocking myself.
23:23
And then I started talking to people about it.
23:26
And then I talked to some friends about it who were also
23:28
like, entrepreneurship, stuff like that.
23:31
And then I also would have the conversations with them.
23:34
And somehow that cleared the air for me.
23:36
And then everything went better. OK, Yeah.
23:40
I had to talk about it, you know.
23:41
Yeah. How how did you sort of find for
23:45
yourself that you had to start talking about it?
23:48
What? What were signals?
23:52
I. Felt that you felt that you
23:54
knew. OK, I'm so stuck now that I need
23:57
help from other people to get unstuck.
23:59
Which is great if you if you actually find out.
24:03
Yeah, well, I, I had a huge imposter syndrome, I would say.
24:07
And I kind of felt during management team that I didn't
24:12
always say what I wanted to say. And, and, and it made me feel
24:15
very even happy at the end of the day.
24:17
You know, it was like there was like this itch and I was like,
24:19
I'm not happy with how I see myself in this.
24:23
But I also knew that that was my own thing.
24:26
It comes from my youth. I knew where it come from.
24:30
So it was also interesting because it's also linked on like
24:33
the the convictions you have about yourself, right?
24:35
It's all about your youth and what you made through there.
24:39
And then suddenly in work life it comes there as well.
24:44
So I went also to therapy. So yeah, I also took some
24:49
therapy on that because there were some blockers from my youth
24:52
that made that I didn't take space for myself because I
24:55
thought it wasn't worth that. And and because of therapy, I
24:59
also tried to talk with my friends about it and things
25:02
became more clear and took care of some traumas.
25:06
And now I feel much better. Yeah.
25:08
Yeah. So therapy does help.
25:12
Yeah, for me, it helps. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
25:15
Because sometimes it's not always about what you feel right
25:18
now. What you're blocking right now
25:19
is something from now. I found out it was from my past,
25:22
something I didn't take care of. So yeah, I had to take care of
25:27
that as well to go further business wise.
25:29
Yeah, it's powerful. I'm sort of in that type of
25:35
shift. I'm looking for a different type
25:37
of therapy. A friend of mine does what is
25:42
called healings or it's called compassion key healings.
25:47
If you want to Google it, feel free and don't don't blame me
25:53
for doing it, it's just. Yeah, you have to try stuff and.
25:57
Find out what. Works for you.
25:58
Yeah, yeah. And also, but also look at,
26:01
let's say, things that happened in the past and and see it that
26:06
I have stayed on the shelf for a really long time and that are
26:09
not now not working for me anymore.
26:12
Because so far I could hide those parts.
26:16
And I will soon feel like, hey, maybe this doesn't work for me.
26:20
So I need to start taking care of it.
26:22
So yeah. And then there's the same what I
26:26
saw, like I could deal with this for a long time and I couldn't
26:29
anymore. And then you know you have to do
26:31
something. But thanks for sharing.
26:34
Yeah, it's, it's something that isn't talked about a lot or
26:41
enough that's. Taboo sometimes, isn't it?
26:46
Well, it's going to help so much people and I think, but that's
26:50
also because it's about women disrupting tech.
26:53
But for men, it's even harder to go to therapy because there's
26:57
also bias on that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.
27:00
For women, it's sort of accepted in a sense.
27:05
For men, I don't think it's really accepted at all.
27:10
No, should be. Should be it's because it's
27:13
actually I, the more I look into it, the more I hear that it's
27:18
actually quite normal also for men.
27:21
And that is actually also quite needed for men to talk about
27:26
their feelings, to talk about things that may have happened in
27:29
the past that they didn't feel comfortable with or that that
27:34
sort of blocked them now that that have an impact.
27:37
So yeah. Yeah, well, good that you're
27:40
taking the step. Yeah, yeah.
27:42
I took a bit of took a bit of time and a bit of courage, but
27:47
yeah, here we are. So.
27:49
Yeah, I took me a lot of time as well to get there.
27:52
So I think that's normal, isn't it?
27:54
Yeah. Yeah, I think so too.
27:56
It just takes, I was talking to to that friend and she also, OK,
28:00
why now? And I told her, well, initially
28:06
I didn't really know what I wanted to get out of it.
28:10
So, and now I know that that it's sort of sort of a readiness
28:16
thing you have to get ready for to accept for yourself, but also
28:21
to in my case at least to find a sort of quote UN quote use case.
28:26
Yeah, it makes sense. And yeah, it is not easy
28:29
therapy, you know, it takes time, a lot of mental effort.
28:32
It does help you further, but you kind of have to be ready for
28:36
it. And I postponed it for years as
28:39
well, and I knew. Because you were afraid of the
28:42
consequence of what you were were going to dig up.
28:47
Yeah, I think afraid of pain, and a lot of it was hard to go
28:51
to the traumas. I mean, I had EMDR, so that's
28:54
not fun. It's very useful.
28:56
Like trauma therapy, it's not very useful, but it's really
28:59
heavy. And it means that you have to go
29:01
to things you don't want to talk, think about.
29:04
You push it away all the time, but you know, your body keeps
29:07
score, so they are there anyway. And yeah, it's confronting, I
29:12
think. Yeah.
29:13
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, that's still waiting
29:17
for me, but we'll help. Maybe you'll make a podcast
29:20
about it one day. Yeah, well, probably I will.
29:25
It's just because it's also, I think it's also intellectual
29:30
concept of, of therapy. I've I've had a few podcasts
29:35
about therapy and mental health so far so I I know a bit about
29:40
it but I think the the the whole mental health aspect is really
29:47
underserved and under how do you say not under researched, under
29:54
highlighted and deserves much more credit than it gets.
30:01
Also, from a business perspective, if I don't feel
30:04
well mentally, I cannot take care of the company and of my
30:08
employees. So it should be like a #1
30:12
priority. It it doesn't mean that I can
30:15
always make it because I also sometimes neglect my mental
30:18
health until I need to take some more time for that.
30:21
But if I don't feel well, I'm not creative.
30:24
I cannot support people. I cannot do good sales calls.
30:27
So yeah, we should take care of ourselves more, isn't it?
30:31
Yeah. Absolutely.
30:35
I want to go back to our prep conversation because you told me
30:39
that your partner actually encourages you to be role.
30:45
Yeah, he does. I never thought about that.
30:49
But what does it mean to you being a role model?
30:52
So that was also a little bit like, hey, why should I be the
30:54
role model? You know, like I'm just doing my
30:57
thing and I'm liking it and I also have insecurities.
31:02
But he told me because he is also in tech, he's but from the
31:05
tech side. So he's a principal engineer,
31:08
very techie, very smart. And so he also works mainly with
31:11
men, of course, and in the SAS business.
31:14
And he said like, well, honey, the hardly women like you.
31:20
And also like, I'm also in my sorority and I also organized an
31:25
ambitious day because I really feel like we women can do a lot,
31:29
even if you don't always have the right backgrounds.
31:33
And he said, like, well, you lead by example.
31:35
I mean, you're very enthusiastic, but you do it from
31:37
your own perspective and you're making it successful.
31:40
And he said to me, like, I think it inspires a lot of people.
31:44
And when I look back, there were quite some people women said to
31:48
me, like, you inspire me, but you always push it a little bit
31:51
aside. But I was like, oh, yeah, but if
31:53
I can aspire only one person, why not?
31:56
And and the only way to do that is to stay yourself and use your
32:01
own energy, know your own power. So I felt a little bit
32:04
uncomfortable when he was saying that like a role model, role
32:06
model. But I do think that I made
32:08
different choices than some people.
32:10
And that did let me to my happy life.
32:12
So if I can, yeah, inspire people with that, why not?
32:18
Yeah. But what I'm also hear you say
32:21
that you actually have to be happy with your comfortable with
32:24
yourself to step into that role. I think so because you know, IA
32:30
lot of people think of themselves as an outsider and I
32:32
think I had that as well. I also have that.
32:36
And at one point I was like, OK, people always have the opinions
32:39
of me. Example was a becoming a
32:41
co-owner. I think most people said I
32:43
shouldn't do it, but I really tried to like focus more on what
32:48
do I want instead of what does the world want from me.
32:52
And for me, it feels 100% that I'm currently leading the life
32:56
that I'm supposed to live. And if you know a little bit
32:59
about my backgrounds, my both parents died when I was quite
33:03
young. I thought they couldn't support
33:06
me in this whole journey. But it also made me realize that
33:10
life is quite short. And as it's too short to keep
33:14
listening to what other people want, if you want to do
33:16
something different. And I hope more people will do
33:19
that. And there's a great quote by
33:23
Steve Jobs about this. Don't let the voices of other
33:27
drown out your inner voice. Exactly.
33:30
And if you look backwards, you can always connect the dots.
33:33
That's what he says as well. And for me it feels as well like
33:36
that. You're also quite feasible in in
33:40
SAS and in tech right now or I think because of also because of
33:46
the role you have. What do you wish more people
33:50
would understand what SAS and being a woman in SAS and tech is
33:54
actually like? It's not as scary as people
33:57
think it is. And it doesn't mean you have to
34:00
be a hardcore coder to work in tech.
34:03
You just you. I think there should be some
34:05
part of you that likes innovation or software or
34:08
whatever, but it doesn't mean you have very to be very
34:10
technical to be successful in SAS.
34:13
I think a lot of people think they should know a lot about
34:16
coding and stuff like that, but that's not true.
34:18
Yeah, that's that's true that a lot of people still think that
34:22
tech is coding and putting things together like Lego and
34:26
then they're do you think it's afraid, people being afraid of
34:31
failing that they don't try? Yeah, so for me it was also
34:36
about growing up, you know, like I, I think if I would have a
34:39
different education, I would probably end up here as well.
34:41
And now it was more a coincidence.
34:43
Well, it's not a coincidence if you listen to Steve Jobs.
34:46
But it's also maybe because when I I grew up in a village and I'm
34:52
now 31 years old. But back then it was really like
34:55
girls play with Barbies and guys doing more technical stuff.
34:59
And because we are not immersed in the more tech part, we might
35:03
think that it's not suitable for us.
35:07
But that's not true at all. So maybe if because we don't
35:10
know, it doesn't mean that we cannot do it.
35:12
Yeah. But do I then also understand
35:16
that you think it has to do with immersion in so, so being really
35:22
immersed and also to to an extent being curious, I I guess.
35:28
Yeah, I think it's of course. I think a curious mind is a joy
35:33
forever. Always keep learning, of course,
35:37
but I also like if you never try is and that's also about whole
35:42
education. And like parents can also play a
35:45
role in that in showing not because you're a women, you have
35:47
to do something social and as a guy, you have to do something
35:50
technical. I think in her whole technical
35:52
educational system, we need to try and get everybody get in
35:56
touch with that and that's improving.
36:00
I know that, but I knew that when I grew up there was like a
36:02
huge split up between the different genders.
36:07
Yeah, yeah, that was true for me as well.
36:11
Yeah. Even though I'm 20 years older
36:13
than you are the same things. Like girls.
36:18
Well, yeah, actually, Barbie was around, so.
36:21
Yeah, girls were playing with dolls and guys were playing with
36:26
cars and. I never liked Barbies.
36:29
There was a problem when I. Oh yeah, that was that must have
36:35
been difficult. Yeah, those were stupid.
36:38
And too superficial and I just want to play on a computer.
36:40
Yeah, but that's one of the things I still want to to just
36:45
rewind on. You were interested in
36:49
computers, but they said it was not necessary at school, so they
36:53
didn't let you. Yeah.
36:56
So like when you guys do the 4th grade right then they you can
37:00
always choose the subjects and I wanted to choose a subject,
37:04
computer science subject and they said like, no, we're not
37:06
offering it because it's not important.
37:09
And I. Not not offering it to periods.
37:11
We're not offering it to women. No, not offering it because he
37:15
said it's not. And one of the reasons that I
37:18
wanted to work at a learning company is because I was so
37:21
frustrated with my high school. If I look back, it's like I
37:26
really was when I graduate, like I want to change this.
37:28
So because I did, I didn't agree with a lot of things.
37:31
So I think that that triggered also something like why?
37:34
Why not? And when I look back, I'm like,
37:36
how could they say that subject is not important and also they
37:39
will not offer? It that's that's knowledge of
37:43
hindsight. Yeah, it is but the.
37:45
Hindsight in this case, we're talking 2004 to 2005, I guess
37:54
around that time, 2006. 1515 years ago, yeah.
37:59
So back then the Internet, like if it was wet because I actually
38:04
got the chance to do some computer sciences on the side.
38:08
So to learn to code oboe, this is 901985.
38:16
And we were like girls and boys, heavily encouraged, hey, you
38:21
have to do this. This is the future 85.
38:27
So I'm a bit surprised about people saying in 2006, like 20
38:31
years later, like was not important.
38:34
You don't need that. When I when I told my boyfriend
38:37
this, he was really angry. Yeah, yeah.
38:40
But. Yeah, at the end it all sound
38:44
pretty well. Yeah, hey, let's talk about
38:47
Provo. Yes, maybe go to tell people
38:52
what Provo does. So Provo is a learning
38:55
management system that's always sounds a bit bit bit boring, but
38:58
it's not because organisations, they can only grow when people
39:03
are growing, right? And a lot of companies, they
39:07
just want to have a central place for that.
39:09
So think about creating E learnings.
39:12
So I don't have to explain people all the time.
39:13
I stuff work organising meetings, making learning
39:18
journeys for onboarding, but also the compliancy parts.
39:21
So when people get an audit, they can say like, hey, we
39:23
educated our people all the time and we built a complete platform
39:27
for that, for in organizations to manage that and to make that
39:30
as easy as possible. So that's what we do.
39:33
OK. So just to be clear, you don't
39:36
do the content of the E learnings, but you do do the
39:40
process around it to lock if people completed stages to or
39:46
completed educations to certifications to keep them
39:51
updated to the making it audible auditable for let's say if you
40:00
have a let's just take an ISO certification as as a basin.
40:06
Yeah, yeah. That's what we do.
40:08
And they can create their own E learnings, but we don't offer
40:10
the contents because a lot of companies when you go do to an
40:14
onboarding at Bluevol will be different when you go to your
40:18
company through an onboarding. So we, we try to make it as easy
40:21
as possible as well for them to share that knowledge within
40:24
minutes, we always say, but especially organize it as well.
40:28
And we're getting more and more customers that have to work with
40:31
obligatory trainings, compliance requirements, legislation is
40:34
changing. So that's also an important
40:37
aspect. So sharing the knowledge but
40:38
also checking do people actually know and are they are they
40:41
certified to do their job? What do people get or what do
40:46
companies get wrong when it comes to this?
40:49
What do they get wrong? Like in general sense.
40:50
Yeah, what do they not understand about the need to to
40:53
have systems like evolve? Yeah, I think a lot of times I
40:57
think like, oh, we can can do it on our own.
41:00
And then they spend like hours a week trying to like change the
41:04
excels losing stuff, but also losing people because it's also
41:09
about personal development. And we know the younger
41:11
generations find that even more important than salary.
41:14
So it's also about not investing in your employees.
41:17
And if you're doing it and it's everywhere, it's scattered.
41:20
It takes so much time and money. So they have to transition that.
41:25
But sometimes they think like, no, we just put it in Excel and
41:28
it should be fine. But then you're not really
41:31
motivating your employees to actually grow and learn.
41:34
No. And and yeah, that's, that's
41:36
really important. And it becomes more important
41:39
with new generations coming in. So.
41:42
So how'd? So that's maybe the
41:45
misconception, isn't it, that I'm going to say she don't think
41:48
that learning and development is important, but it is.
41:51
It's the only way you. Can survive that would like
41:53
really be interesting if you think learning is not important.
42:00
Yeah, well, they say it's important, but we don't want to
42:03
spend time on it. Yeah, but then, then it's not
42:05
important. No, exactly.
42:07
If you just focus on the productivity part of people and
42:10
even then I think people need need to learn new processes.
42:14
So at some point. I would say if you're not
42:18
focusing on learning, on development of your employees,
42:21
your company will not grow anymore and you might go
42:23
bankrupt. I think it's essential and I
42:26
think we're getting more and more there because you know,
42:29
life is changing quicker and quicker.
42:32
So, so we see a lot of companies they become more conscious on
42:35
like, oh, we should do that pretty well also because the new
42:37
generation really requires it. But that doesn't mean that all
42:42
companies realize it yet. They hopefully will, but not
42:46
everyone but. That's interesting.
42:48
I would think that nowadays with the speed that AI is developing
42:54
and number of other technical developments and increase of
42:59
requirements, people, especially let's say the larger companies
43:03
would be like, OK, we need to wrap something around it.
43:09
Yeah. And and that's why it's a good
43:11
business where we're in because more companies are realizing it.
43:14
But that's a shift we're going through.
43:16
Yeah. So.
43:18
So what is the shift then? I think that the consciousness
43:22
on how important it is to invest in learning development, I
43:26
really see there's like more and more companies.
43:29
First, it should be something that HR does.
43:31
A lot of companies get a special person that does the learning
43:34
development part. We really see like the amount of
43:38
in the SMEs, for example. So like learning management was
43:41
done in, in the corporates and we focus more on the SMEs that
43:44
that part is really growing. And also the SME mark is now
43:48
like, hey, if we don't invest in our employees, they will walk
43:51
away and we cannot replace them because we have a lack of
43:54
people. Yeah, I know.
43:55
And a lack of knowledge. And a lack of knowledge?
43:58
Yes, Exactly. Yeah.
44:00
Because then essentially what I'm hearing you say is your
44:03
company literally bleeds to death.
44:07
I would say so, yeah. So what kind of customers come
44:11
to you? So it's SME.
44:13
Yeah, it's a lot of factories and production locations, but
44:17
it's also government and it's also like artists, The Royal
44:21
Zoo, they use it as well to like, educate their employees
44:25
and their volunteers. So it's kind of diverse.
44:28
One thing they have in common is they want to share their own
44:31
knowledge and they are willing to invest in their employees.
44:34
Yeah. OK.
44:36
So if you're hearing this and you have you want to preserve
44:39
knowledge and educate your employees and keep your
44:43
employees in boards, then yeah. Send me a message.
44:46
Yeah, just look at our website, of course.
44:48
But you can also say like, hey, I listen to the podcast.
44:50
Yeah, it will be nice. OK, So what?
44:54
What does PO look like in five years, you think?
44:59
Yeah, that's a good question. I had to apply for tender and
45:03
they asked for us for the five year road map.
45:06
And honestly things are going so fast right now.
45:09
I can I know where we will be like in one year, but where we
45:13
will exactly be in five years. It could be anywhere in that
45:16
sense like because technology is evolving, we're investing in AI
45:21
quite a lot. But in five years, we will have
45:24
so much more technologies and political, of course, go with
45:27
that. But I cannot really tell you
45:29
what it looks like. But if you're asking where we're
45:32
currently focusing on is like we have like a compliance part
45:35
that's completely ready. We will add a lot of AI features
45:38
that make it even more possible and easy for people to do
45:42
everything around learning management.
45:44
And we are already expanding abroad right now.
45:46
So we're getting more and more companies outside of the
45:48
Netherlands. So I hope we will be a
45:52
sustainable player on a European market that people in in a lot
45:56
of the countries in Europe will use Pluto.
45:58
That's my dream. OK.
46:01
Which countries are you expanding into?
46:03
Germany, England. So we already have some
46:07
customers in England, Belgium, Slovenia, for some reason Spain.
46:12
But one of the first target marks is Germany, because they
46:17
lost always a little bit later than the Netherlands, but they
46:19
have a lot of obligatory training needs.
46:21
So that means a great market for us, a lot of factories, lot of
46:24
industry, which fits perfect to the how Pluto can be used.
46:30
So that will be the first country, yeah, that we want to
46:32
penetrate. And that's then partially driven
46:35
by compliance needs. Yes, yeah, because we found out
46:40
companies, they want to invest in employees, but they don't
46:43
feel the pain. There's more like a Fitzman.
46:45
Yeah. However, if they have to do deal
46:47
with compliance needs, it will be a painkiller.
46:50
And then they are much, much more needed and required to
46:53
invest in a system like us because they have to and they do
46:57
it with Excel. And that's not durable when
46:59
you're with 200 people. So there's a need, there's a
47:02
pain. So that's for us.
47:05
Bite fits up pretty well. And then the fight men that your
47:10
employees stay on board is, is a sort of sweeter deal sweeter.
47:16
Yeah, it shouldn't be, right, It shouldn't be.
47:19
But we just see in the serious trajectories that's.
47:23
I'm just struggling with this. I don't know the German markets,
47:26
Joe Parks, but everywhere I hear there's a shortage of people, so
47:32
maybe that's a pain. It should be a pain and but that
47:36
that's what I see and that that's interesting.
47:39
So I have sometimes like these, these conversations, like we
47:43
have a lack of people, therefore we cannot invest in our people.
47:47
And that's weird, isn't it? But they're like, we don't have
47:48
time because we don't have the people.
47:52
And you know what will happen? More and more people will leave.
47:54
So I, I see that around me, right?
47:55
And not not I see this happening.
47:57
Yeah. So to they they put themselves
48:00
in a in a sort of infinite loop, infinite spiral downwards.
48:05
Until the pain is too big and then they.
48:09
Right until there's regulation coming in that says thou shalt
48:13
educate on decision this and then they.
48:16
Well, they tried that in Belgium with a system that you like,
48:19
have so much education, all days and hours for your job.
48:24
It's not so easy. But yeah, I think as a company
48:29
you should be internally motivated to educate your people
48:32
and give them the chances to grow because it helps you as
48:36
well as a company. Yeah, it's an interesting
48:38
parallel with diversity, I have to say, because everyone knows
48:42
that it is better for your company to have a diverse team,
48:45
to have a diverse employee base. Yet do you see that in in tech
48:50
that it's that idea is catching on?
48:54
Of hiring more diverse. Teams, yeah.
48:58
Well, it's a thing I know a lot of people talk about, but if you
49:01
look at the marks, for example, about investments in more
49:06
diverse teams. What's happening?
49:10
It's something we talk people talk about, but I'm not quite
49:13
sure if things are really changing.
49:16
How do we create pain there you think?
49:19
Yeah. Then you have the discussion
49:20
about shouldn't we regulate it a little bit more?
49:23
And then you have the liberal people saying like, no, we
49:25
should be free. However, if we don't regulate
49:28
it, probably things will not change.
49:29
Is it? Now I had an interesting
49:32
discussion with people from from Femstart about how to get more
49:38
investments in women, in female entrepreneurs.
49:43
And my, I think it was my own spear who said, well, we just
49:48
had need to flood the market with female entrepreneurs
49:51
because they, they, they, they, they just have to finance just
49:54
because there's no others other way to well, finance.
50:00
I love that. So it just means that we need to
50:02
stimulate female entrepreneurship much more.
50:05
Yeah, yeah. And that's why I like as a
50:07
female entrepreneur, I think you should stimulate that around
50:10
you. You should don't be the person
50:11
that said to me, don't do it. I'll always say that people have
50:14
to do it and follow the heart and try to motivate them to to,
50:18
to take those steps. We can take it.
50:21
Like dear young you and me, we can be an example.
50:25
And maybe if people listen to this podcast and they're
50:28
listening to your protocols specifically, like you have more
50:30
episodes in this, I think that that's also a medium that can
50:33
inspire people to take the leap. I hope it is if, if people are
50:39
listening, if women are less. If there's a woman listening
50:42
though she's she wants to try working in tech or she wants to
50:48
try be an entrepreneur. She doesn't feel she has some
50:53
background or the education. What do you tell her?
50:56
Just do it, just try like you can always go back if you don't
51:02
like it. It's if you never try, you will
51:04
always regret not trying it. That's yeah.
51:06
But that's me. I'm always like go, let's go, if
51:08
because. Yeah, it's, it's it.
51:10
Yeah, I, I, I have this theory I was thinking about this morning
51:14
when I rode my bicycle to work. And it's it's it for me
51:19
personally, there's like this little flame sometimes inside
51:21
me, this little energy bulb. And I feel like I want to do
51:24
something. And for me.
51:27
And I know more people have that, that, you know, like what
51:29
you just told me about your ID before the podcast.
51:31
You know, when you feel the spark, Yeah.
51:33
And of course you you get in certain and in doubt.
51:36
But when you feel the spark, I think you should always follow
51:38
it. Yeah, and it's magical if if you
51:42
do. I was literally this morning in,
51:45
as I call it, stouter motors. Yeah.
51:48
Exactly like that. I like.
51:50
Like really aesthetic almost, but in a positive way.
51:55
In a positive way, it's one of the.
51:56
Best things ever. Yeah.
51:58
Oh yeah, absolutely. And for the listeners who are
52:02
thinking what the heck, stay tuned.
52:06
Stay tuned. It will.
52:09
It will come to your podcast feed at some point that I tell
52:12
you about this. Any I was there's one one more
52:18
question about this that I was wondering about.
52:22
We talked about adopting a growth mindset.
52:25
How does that play? I think that changes your whole
52:29
life. I think a lot of people are
52:32
stuck in a fixed mindset. I cannot do it.
52:34
I cannot learn it. I mean, it doesn't mean that I
52:37
never had that as well, but when I learned that's nice about
52:43
working in a learning company, you know, you learn a lot of
52:45
learning theories and you also have this effect.
52:49
One point is the golem effect and you have the other ones.
52:51
If you tell a class that they are stupid, they will have like
52:56
lower grades. And when you tell them they are
52:58
smart, it's the same as you can tell yourself if I I know it can
53:02
learn it. So I see it a lot in my sport.
53:06
I don't call aesthetics. It means that I have to learn
53:08
weird stuff like gymnastics a little bit that when I tell
53:12
myself I cannot do something, I cannot do it.
53:14
And I know when I know like I can do it, some of the stuff
53:17
clicks. And I think that's the same with
53:19
entrepreneurship or your career. Your own mindset is so important
53:24
in everything that you do. And if you only talk negatively
53:27
and think like, oh, I cannot learn it, of course you will
53:31
not. But I really believe that you
53:32
can learn anything. And I think that people should
53:37
always try to learn everything that they want to learn because
53:40
also because of coding, I was not very technical.
53:43
And then I decided this Christmas that I want to take a
53:47
hacker course. At first I was like, oh, I'm
53:50
not, I'm not. I didn't have like a technical
53:52
education, but it's like, oh, I can learn.
53:54
If anything, it was really fun actually.
53:58
Yeah, yeah, curiosity and and learning things is absolutely
54:03
fun. Exactly.
54:05
Even though we get taught at school by our classmates that
54:08
it's that you're not school if you're learning.
54:11
Yeah, at. Least I was taught that, yeah.
54:14
Because you were a book nerd, so I would say no.
54:17
No, no I wasn't. Actually I was quite the
54:20
opposite from a book nerd. I didn't start reading until I
54:25
was like 10 I think. OK.
54:28
At least I read, but I was like too lazy much more.
54:33
It was more a television person. But no.
54:39
But I was keen to get the knowledge.
54:43
So I would be really sitting silent in front of the
54:46
classroom, which is like not the thing cool boys do that's.
54:54
Not learning right at school. You're not supposed to.
54:58
It's you're supposed to neg the teacher etcetera anyway.
55:04
You like learning? I I, I always like learning and
55:06
it's still, yeah, still helps me deal with curiosity problems,
55:12
let's say. Yeah, that's, that's interesting
55:14
because like in Dutch you have the same news sheet and they
55:18
always cope me like that. And I thought it was a bad
55:20
thing. You know, I was like, oh, I
55:21
asked too many questions. Yeah, and there's no such thing,
55:25
I think. Oh, if we know back then that
55:27
was a good thing. You know, you have to be
55:30
curious. And I know my teacher told me
55:31
like, you're too curious. And then I look back like, oh,
55:35
but it's good. Curious.
55:36
Yeah, how can men adopt A growth mindset when it comes to making
55:42
tech more inclusive? Yeah, I got this question
55:45
beforehand and then I was really thinking about it.
55:48
I also discussed it with my colleagues like, hey, what do
55:50
you think I get? Got a point blank.
55:53
They were like, I don't know. And I mean.
55:59
Thanks for confirming my business idea by the way anyway.
56:03
Yeah, exactly. So they were like, so for me
56:06
personally, like my, my Co founders, you know, they, they
56:09
gave, they really gave me as a 24 years old women the chance to
56:13
do my own thing. And they never judged me as
56:15
being a woman they'd really like.
56:17
Oh, I want we want to give her the chance to do this with us.
56:22
So that that that that's also about that, like if, if chances
56:26
to people and motivate them to do it.
56:27
So that that was for me a big deal changer.
56:30
If they wouldn't be as open, like they're not like typical,
56:33
like, Hey, I want to protect my own part.
56:35
They were really like, Oh, we give you the chance because we
56:38
believe in you and I, I find it important that they told me
56:42
that, you know, like they they really created the space for me
56:44
to grow into the purse where I'm now.
56:49
But what I was also thinking about was in tech in general, is
56:54
that a lot of tech is also developed and tested on men.
56:57
So I think if you're talking about inclusive tech, it should
57:00
also be like, hey, in your whole from the product point of view,
57:03
like, hey, how do you develop it?
57:05
Who do you develop it and with whom are you testing it?
57:10
So that's that's was also a thought that crossed my mind.
57:13
So more inclusive test panels as well.
57:16
Yeah, I should. Be but also if if I can just
57:20
rewind, I think it's more like OK half of your customer base
57:24
will be a woman so why is it only men developing at it?
57:30
You could say that and we have one female developer now.
57:35
I was so happy with that because it was not the easiest to find.
57:39
How how has that changed the the product?
57:44
That's a good question. Well, I think a lot of things
57:46
have changed general in the company the past few years.
57:49
So I'm not quite sure like what was that specific change.
57:53
But I think I think it's better for the development team in
57:55
general that they also have like a different point of view in
57:58
developing. But did you actually see that
58:01
also feed in in terms of of the discussions that were?
58:07
Yeah, because I'm not very developed, like I'm not very in
58:10
the product team. Of course.
58:11
I mean, I, I talk with them and and I see stuff, but it's not my
58:14
team. But I see, I see.
58:16
I saw a shift. It's more cooperative, I would
58:20
say, yeah. That's good, right?
58:23
So that's a good thing. But yeah, I mean in the future I
58:25
would like to have a 5050 at trying to get there, but it's
58:30
not as easy as it as it sounds. Is is that because what?
58:34
What makes it difficult to hire more women in the development
58:39
area? I think if we do like
58:42
application then I think 90% of the applicants are male so.
58:49
So there's 7% women. Yeah, it's, it's not so much.
58:53
And most of them that apply of course, like they don't qualify
58:57
at all, like male and female, but we don't get a lot of
59:01
applicants. And I have the same when I had a
59:02
sales vacancy, I mostly got male respondents.
59:06
So that's interesting. Like, hey, how are we
59:09
formulating A vacancy? And I think that sales and
59:12
development guys mostly, oh, we can do sales, but I believe that
59:17
women are mostly better in sales because we can listen better.
59:21
But a lot of women think now I can do account management, but
59:24
not like sales, sales. Well, so there's also like, how
59:28
do you perceive a specific job description?
59:32
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a matter of wording.
59:34
At least that's what I know from a number of episodes that that
59:39
actually the text of the, of the the vacancy or the job ads that
59:47
you have actually does matter a lot to to the point that if you
59:54
put underneath like, hey, we know that from, from data that
59:58
women only apply when they meet 110% of the requirements.
1:00:04
But we want to invite you to apply anyway, even if you meet
1:00:07
40, because the guys will start applying at 40 and bluff their
1:00:11
way through the remaining 60. Yeah, which and I think that
1:00:16
because we are not recruiter experts, so we always use
1:00:19
recruiters for it. So hopefully they will get
1:00:24
better in it as well. Yeah.
1:00:25
So one thing I learned from a recruiter is that they will come
1:00:30
up with the most probable candidate to meet your
1:00:35
requirements, which is usually someone that looks like them or
1:00:41
looks like someone who have they've hired before.
1:00:44
So there's a lot of implied bias there.
1:00:48
Yeah, I believe that as well. And I know there's also shift
1:00:51
going on there. You have like these tech tools,
1:00:54
it's make it easier to use. But then we're still like SME.
1:00:57
So I'm not investing €100,000 to get a tool like that.
1:01:00
But I hope that with all the columns of technology, we can
1:01:05
make positive shifts in it as well.
1:01:06
Cool, sounds like a great place to to close Henny Oxcar.
1:01:12
Thanks very much for an amazing conversation.
1:01:14
Really enjoyed this. Also the the insight about
1:01:17
mental health and about therapy. Yeah.
1:01:20
Thanks for that. Yeah, thank you as well for this
1:01:23
lovely conversation. Thanks for inviting.
1:01:25
Yeah, if people want to learn more about you or about Pluvo,
1:01:29
where would you like to send them?
1:01:32
Well, you can always add me on LinkedIn and Youth Star and
1:01:35
Pluvo. You can also look on our website
1:01:37
pluvo.com. Cool.
1:01:39
And we'll include those links in the show notes.
1:01:42
Henny, thank you very much. Thanks, Nurse.
1:01:45
Yeah. This nurse, thank you very much
1:01:47
for listening and until the next episode, keep being awesome.
1:01:55
Well, that's it for episode 120 of Women Disrupting Tech with
1:02:00
Henny Hoekstra, titled How Curious Minds Build Better
1:02:04
Companies in Tech Henny, and I hope that our conversation
1:02:08
encourages you to use your curiosity as a superpower.
1:02:12
If you have any questions for Henny, please leave them in the
1:02:15
comments on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube.
1:02:18
I'll make sure you'll receive an answer.
1:02:20
When you want to connect with Henny or learn more about Plevo,
1:02:24
please check out the links in show notes.
1:02:26
As usual, you can find the show notes at Women's Distributing
1:02:29
Tech or Block, and the link is also in the description.
1:02:33
If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please consider
1:02:36
leaving a rating or a review on Apple or Spotify.
1:02:41
Leaving a rating or a review helps new listeners find
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1:03:03
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1:03:06
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1:03:36
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1:03:40
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1:03:43
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1:03:46
With that, I wish you a wonderful day.
1:03:49
I hope to see you in the next eisode.
1:03:51
And until then, as always, keep being awesome.