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How Childhood experience affects adult behaviour · Mental Health Matters

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Mental Health Matters.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: With me, Dr.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: Audrey Tang, and I'm Judith Crozier, and we have the fabulous Dr.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: Gus Chavez joining us today.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Today's topic is again not full of hotficers and hot takes and so on, but we are going to be talking about Dr.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Guster's work.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: You do a lot of work with the inner child and the adult who has to process a lot of things that have gone on in the past in order to live life and thrive.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: But a lot of that learning can then be potentially applied to creating a healthy space for children.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason I want to talk about this is because I worry we don't have a healthy space for children at the moment.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: So what are your thoughts just off, you know, off the bat on do we have a space for children to grow up in a healthy way at the moment, do you think?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh that's a it's a big one, isn't it?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think it can be created, but you have to you have to be, you know, the architect of that environment.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you just let people be, I think we're in a very dangerous uh situation.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because with the way technology's been evolving and how social media now became the new way to be, it comes with such a big pressure on children to grow up, to show up, to adapt, to um to conform.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think children should be, well, at that they are at this developmental stage where they should be exploring safely.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they're now curating themselves to adapt.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Six, seven years old, you know.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's the scary bit because I think we are looking 20 years from now to big, big problems.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it's funny because as you were talking, one of the key things that I know I say to clients, or people in general, if we're talking about, you know, if someone's saying they lack confidence or whatever, think back to your childhood.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: When were you confident?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: When were you this?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: When were you that?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think we can do that now because if a child has curated their life, so this is the thing that we came to when curiosity was is kicked out of us, as it were, when when we were growing up and going to school, where is that child who is now an adult gonna look back to?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: They have nothing to draw on.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's scary.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, so it's a it's a really scary thought, absolutely.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: I I worry about the children, so I see children, little children, trying to get their parents' attention, and and their parents are just fixated on their phone.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: I see that a lot, and that worries me because what's that telling that child?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and it they're not in a safe place and they're they're so tiny and they're just taught that they're not important.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it and then that that that's with them unless something drastically changes.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: I do find that really scary that and that was very different probably to most of our childhood.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love the fact that you gave uh a adult perspective on the childhood.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because I focus on the child when you came up with the question.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yes, that's completely true, because we the children are being affected by the adults' behavior too.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because nowadays it's not only the children that are being uh hooked to these screens, the parents are putting these screens in front of them so that they can do their own thing, which is normally also being on the phone, yes, being hooked to their phones.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, that's creating a big disconnection.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that child feels like they are no, uh they're not important at all.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you create like the sense of self-worth disappears.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's they do anything they can to feel loved.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it sounds dramatic, but if you think about it, for a child, love, connection is survival.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not just well, I can go without some love today.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: They need care, they need love, they need connection because that's how they survive.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're not dogs that in in two weeks that could just crawl about and do whatever they want.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: We need protection until like our early teenage years.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: We need somebody to to feed us that comes with care.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's not just you know, oh give me love, it's it's survival.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that child would grow up.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Learning, learning, uh living on a survival mode.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: I cannot wait to get into this conversation.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think we're gonna just jump straight in.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: Straight in.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Why not?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: So talking about childhoods then, what do you think a healthy childhood does look like?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and where are we failing in 2026?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it's it's a big question.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can tuck it out for hours now, yeah.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I I believe that we we lack a space for children to to express emotions safely.
• 5:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And because we don't allow them uh to express themselves, and we have many different uh I don't think approaches to babysitting or taking care of children, some of them are very strict, and I think that goes against nature.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I believe we need to learn how to find a way to have children be children.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and understand that if they don't behave the way you expected, it's to guide them in a way that it's safe, but not block that emotion to come through.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's so funny because I've seen this in practice.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: I went to see um Emma Kendrick in LOL Theatre, yeah, and it was an outdoor production, and it there was children children running around, and what you could see was one parent getting very uptight because their child was running around, and every time the child ran back, it was like Emma also on stage noticed this, and in her character she went, it's okay we can run around now, but when I say stop, we're all gonna stop.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: And she helped that child moderate themselves just simply by allowing it, but then saying that this is when we're all gonna stop and giving the child a space to go.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: I can just imagine her doing this.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's little change, yes, so it's huge at the same time because it does allow the child to explore and be the energetic person they are because children are different.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is also where I think we're failing.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: We tend to find a framework that works and just apply, but that's not realistic.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Some children are more sensitive, others are more energetic, or are more physical, creative, curious.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to adapt to different children.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Parents have to be patient enough to understand every child is unique and adapt to their needs because it it's different.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: And also I think there is the anxiety of the parent that feeds into the child.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know and I know people don't like me comparing my dog to children.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: But there are similarities with children.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: When I'm nervous and I be quiet, he feels it, but the minute I just stroke him calmly, he will quiten down.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just my energy being transferred over to him.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think we need awareness of this.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love this conversation.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: I already know that it's something we could talk about at all together.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so thank you.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, a healthy childhood is is space for the child to be with within certain boundaries, yeah.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um so what are some of the reasons that you think children might be forced to grow up too soon?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think at the moment, I think social media is a big one.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're expecting exposing children to adult conversations, yes, to adult uh expectations.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's very difficult.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: There is so much pressure for a child nowadays because they will never understand the childhood that we had.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's true, and it's sad that they won't understand that.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's very difficult for them to understand to go a day without 10 to 15 minutes minimum.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Of screens.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Of screens.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And for us, like for us, like, oh my god, what's happening?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, for them, it comes with such an unspoken pressure to be uh important, to be liked, to be uh successful online, to have a presence online.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And this kind of talk is such an adult reflection.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it creates this fraction, this pressure to and we we start to have self-worth linked to external validations, and that's a huge problem at this developmental stage.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: They should be expressing themselves and being safe to be themselves.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And now we're we're kind of taking that away.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: And social media, it's very immediate.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: You can do the thing, and then you've got your online presence and you can see the results.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Now I remember, and I think a lot of people have forgotten this.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: Did you grow up with 17 magazine, more magazine, even cosmopolitan magazine, all of those?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: There was a whole thing about cosmopolitan aimed at 20-year-olds, read by 17-year-olds.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: 17 aimed at 17-year-olds, read by 14-year-olds, yeah, more aimed at 18-year-olds read by 14-year-olds as well.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: And more had things like the vision of the we and stuff like that.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: And people were already worried that young people were coming into contact with adult experiences too early, but that was a magazine.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: You you you might be able to dress a little bit like Madonna or whoever the model was, but no one else apart from your immediate group of friends would say that.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, and that sounds so innocent now.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because I did read the next magazine up for my age group.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: I did, even though I had a very strict childhood, that was fine.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it didn't it it just seems so innocent now compared to social media seems as you say.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think we tend to worry about whatever is happening.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think when books came about, it was a big thing.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, seriously, I've read about this before because people thought people are gonna be alienated, they're not gonna be here, and now we're like screens.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but we are seeing a bit more research showing the impact, so it's different from just books.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we also have to be like, okay, how can we manage and approach it in a healthy way instead of just making it the devil?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, how can we use it in a way to enhance, improve a perfect?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: It I think what's really interesting is to look at all of the things that you recognize in children that then play out in adulthood.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: Because what you talked about is a lack of internal validation because it's always, is it the likes that I'm getting?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the curating of the self, because that's the front that you put on the screen, and not everyone sees the whole picture, the need for survival.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: I must, you get that mindset, I must be liked in order to survive.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: How do you see that then playing out in your adult clients?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: No self-worth.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: People pleasing, avoiding uh conflict at any any uh any way possible.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's adapting.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: You learn to adapt because you need to not uh stir a conversation, you cannot uh create a problem, a situation.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: You have to always be adapting to others, which is the people-pleasing kind of behavior, and that's quite problematic because many of them don't even know who they are.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and whenever we talk this is the part that I struggle with personally, because whenever I come uh touch that subject, like would you like us to explore inner child work?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's some things here and there that you say that you might not realize it might be coming from some past experiences, and they leave a mark.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but we've been masking for so long that we no longer even know what we're masking anymore.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and all of them, I swear, they all said, No, my childhood was perfect, I had no problems there.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: My parents were amazing.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm not questioning that.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, yeah, but something else happened along the way that you didn't see or you don't allow yourself today to see it so that you can still be here standing and doing and working.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: We create personas to um hide the wonder child.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's so important to know this, and and yes, you're absolutely right, we don't want to blame parents.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's it's not not the point of this.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: But then when you compare what we've just been talking about, so the social media environment that is potentially also guiding that child's behaviour.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: You can have a parent who is doing absolutely everything they can to give that child freedom and curiosity and enjoyment and engagement without the screen, but yet these wounds are forming because they're learning it from somewhere else.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's really dangerous.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, is there anything that you think we can do apart from education, I suppose, to help parents who are maybe kind of going, but I I do I don't I didn't cause any, you know, or or there's there's no wounds that you can really see from parenting.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's all come from the other things that child is exposed to.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: I that's it's a very difficult way to structure it, uh a concise answer to that.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but yeah, no, I get that.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: I but I believe if the parent is that involved, they probably also have these screen time uh limitations.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And they also know how to put some parent uh there's some some barriers you can put on online um, I don't know exactly how to phrase it.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, yeah, yeah, restriction restrictions so they don't access some specific uh content.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: But even though I I still believe because until we're like about 10 to ish, we're still very much uh inspired by our parents and caregivers.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: So even though social media does play a role and your friends play a role, until like nine to ten, it's your parents.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you mirror everything you see, not what they say, what you see.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a very important thing.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's a day personality.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you cannot be just having a coke and say you have to drink water.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because otherwise, yeah you're not doing it.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So mirroring your parents.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to ch teach or you know, influence your child in a positive way, you have to take on the role and act the way you would like them to follow.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really interesting.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're keeping you, and we will continue with this after a clip from Dr.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Gus.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: So most people, when they want to make change, they think of these huge changes, massive changes that they don't want to, you know, make.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: They tend to start by overcommitting to too much in little time.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: We know we know what happens because we've all been there.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: We fail in less than two weeks because it's too much to change in such a short amount of space.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so my tip for you is to commit to one small change, even if it's just five minutes a day, that it's doable, achievable, and then you can actually commit to it, to do it daily.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Once you do that, you start to establish a better relationship with yourself because so far you have been failing to yourself.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if you had a friend that would never show up, at some point you would question if you could trust them.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So right now, if you've been overcommitting, you don't trust yourself, and we need to re-establish that relationship with yourself.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: So don't get one small thing, five minutes a day, two pages of a book, whatever it is.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's the small things that are gonna pile up to big changes, and that habit will create a new identity, and that identity will come with new patterns, and then the change will just establish, and that's gonna be the new you, the massive change you want.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Start with small steps.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: We're here with Dr.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Gus Chavez and we're talking about how adults can present with inner child wounds and issues that they need to work through in order to thrive.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: But we're dialing it back and looking at the potential issues that can start out in childhood and what we can maybe do about them, or at least what we need to be aware of.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so let's look at when an adult presents with people, pleasing and maybe being very defensive, or all of those sorts of behaviors.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: How does pressure from childhood, wherever that comes from, whether it's through social media, whether it's through what they see of their parents and so on, how does that affect the nervous system as an adult?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, from a neuroscience perspective, uh you create you kind of build the system to be on a survival mode constantly.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: So uh what what that means is like the cortisol gets overactivated more than it should be all the time.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that child is constantly looking for approval to fit in, to be um to matter, to get the care they need, to get the love they need, and they crave it.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's very difficult to watch.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I remember in my own practice, I'm sorry, I'm going a bit off the topic, but I remember I had one couple come in with a child when I was a GP, and I knew nothing about the couple, but I knew they were separating just by the way they talked.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right, wow.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to take her to town, and you have to take and I was like, oh, they just broke up.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the child is and I could see the child in between.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like mommy, mommy, and and I was like, I was in pain to watch the child, and I was like, I had to ask them, can you please together as parents understand that you have a different role?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's no longer a partnership for you, it's for her.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Her world is like you know, completely destroyed.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she doesn't have a floor to walk on, the ceiling has fallen off, she has no idea what's going on, and you're still fighting.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it doesn't look like it, but you are, and she knows.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, it's it's those little things that create like this desperate sense of I need to belong, I need to fit in.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: The belonging comes away and you just fit in.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you always just uh it's gonna be a child that's gonna wake up, grow up to be people pleaser.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna enter every room and scan for emotions to see am I in danger?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, what do I need to do to fit in?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's no longer a person who knows who they are and accept their emotions and their personality to come through the adapt.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then, and this is I guess speaking from my own experience, once you've done that and you are already kind of locked into that pattern, your nervous system gets so used to that high level of cortisol, that high level of adrenaline or whatever it is, that suddenly when you find yourself in a healthy, safe relationship or friendship, this is boring.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: You run away, yeah.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like this.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: This is not what I knew, but actually, it's the very safe thing that they they need.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's basically where I you know what I want because we the the habits that we have, the the pathways, the neural pathways that we've created, they're mainly structured to go make you go back to what's familiar.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because the familiar now looks sounds or seems, feels safe.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Even if it isn't, even it's on a conscious level, it's not.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: You understand you should get away from it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: You see yourself going back because it's what you know.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's what you know.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's familiar, it's safe, but it's not.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where you know where hypnotherapy helps us to rebuild that and from inside out.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Therefore, I guess based on your practice at the moment and how you create emotional safety for the adult, how do we create emotional safety in general?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: And this could be for children or for adults.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: What do we need in our space to make that person begin to feel safe, even if they're rebelling against it?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's also quite challenging because on a conscious level, practical level, it's quite possible.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: The struggle is trying to make the person understand that it's safe to step out.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna give a very absurd example that I saw.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've I'm very observative since I was a very child, early child.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I we had a lot of dogs.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my dogs who was a boxer, she had five or five sex puppies, and we were just taking care of them.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we had a section in the house just for the dogs.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the area they knew that was their world for the first three to four weeks.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: They wouldn't get out of it.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was just there.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember till I was like eight.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I remember opening the doors and saying, I think you're old enough to explore.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: They would not it took them about five minutes to exit the room.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like outside, like, come on.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they could so that for me stayed so clear.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we get safe, we feel safe where we know.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Anything out of it, outside of it, yeah, feels threatening.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good analogy.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it stayed with me forever.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Until today I can remember that because I could see like there's nothing how can you come?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's gardens, there's so much to explore, and they just they just felt safe there.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: They would look back at their mom, and like it took them took them took them a while to get out.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I see that in my clients.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you create a beautifully safe space for therapy, it's private, it's where you can come, and they were like, Yeah, but I don't you don't have you don't need to hear this, or so this is the place for you to say don't worry about me, I'm not here to judge.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is so it's creating the place and be being consistent.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this is very important because people say, like, oh yeah, my child can do whatever they want, but whenever they do it.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's confusing.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it confuses the child, it makes them more unsafe because now they don't know when or where.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it becomes uh, you know, mixed messages doesn't help.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So consistency in a safe space there all the time, and you being available to receive that was going to create a safe space.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, so interesting.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's so a parent who is ruled by how they feel on a particular day, and then the child is going, but yesterday it was alright for me to do that, and today I'm getting told off.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's yeah.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that just creates fear in the child of what and then they walk on eggshells and then they won't know they need they that's when the child learns I need to adapt.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and and and that's when they learn to put on different hats for different people and just just be different people for different people.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: And an adapted adult is not authentic.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's um interesting.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: So on that note then, so how does a parent model healthy emotional regulation for for children and providing a healthy space?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think to start is accept that you're not going to be perfect.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's a big thing for parents actually, because there's such a social media fear of judgment, there is a pressure on them, yes.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think we as I think we we say we have this saying, like, we're humans, we make mistakes.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Accept that you are going to make mistakes.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that way, it uh us as adults, when we look back at our parents until like very early age of our adulthood, we we used to point at them and say, like, you did this, you did this.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: But when you grow as an adult, it's like, oh, they were learning.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: They had no idea what was to be a parent when I came.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So now that we're adults, like, oh my god, I'm learning to do this, and it's so challenging.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: How would I, you know?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think bringing that kind of pattern of thought to your daily life is gonna help.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not gonna be perfect.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing that together.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're parenting for the first time, yeah, and they're being a child for the first time.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is new for both of us to learn together, but to model, it's to accept that it's going it's not going to be perfect, yeah.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: But also to learn to be aware of your own emotions, allow them to come through, but also regulate Yes, in a healthy way, in a healthy way, because you are going to make mistakes, but if you as we said uh earlier on, uh it's not what you say, it's what you do.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are going to make mistakes, teach them by doing how to come back from it.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, how to recover from this.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So oh, I'm sorry, I should not have shouted.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Mommy's overwhelmed at the moment because of this, this, and that.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is nothing related to you.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: What did you want to say?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: But give them space to say this is safe for me too.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because if mommy can do that, then yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because if she can say whatever she's feeling, it also creates for them, because uh many of the adults nowadays don't know their emotions.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: So naming them, learning to name their emotions.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that so the child can create what I call emotionary, which is a dictionary of emotions.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: So little by little start to structure, oh, this is not scare, this is fear, this is you start to identify what those uh emotions are and what you can do when they come.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: So be a parent, be you, be create the safe space for you so they can know it's safe for them too.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: But I love that emotionary because there is something called the feelings wheel, but what I learned from that is that an adult usually will say, Oh, I'm really angry, and then when you unpack it, it's not anger, it's fear.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's fear, yeah.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: Or it's some or it's or resentment, or it's something else.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the thing, it's about recognising that actually you can't just class everything on a bit sad.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah are you are you lonely?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: Are you you know what is it?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's brilliant.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that emotionary.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, love it.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and talking about semantics, yes, how easy is it to confuse achievement with well-being?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna expand on this because there was a brilliant scene in It's the Marvellous Mrs.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Mazel on Netflix, where um they they sent the child to a very good school, a very good school, and part of this very good school, you have the maths club and you have the science club and the drama club and the happy club.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: And the happy club.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you could see the drama club, they were all being vespians and gonna win off scars and the science cover making rockets and the math club doing really difficult equations.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: The happy club was just running around.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: And the grandfather got so upset that the grandson was in the happy club, but the teacher said he excels at being happy.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: So he's in the happy club.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: What's the problem with that?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: He's happy, and so that's kind of where this achievement versus well-being, that child is probably thriving to some degree, but he wasn't valued, he wasn't valued.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that child I haven't seen it, but I understand the scene, it is very well uh you know described.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that child's gonna be a better adult than all the other ones.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't know how they were, you know, being raised.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Been involved that way.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: But uh that adult will be able to regulate in whatever profession they go into, yes, they're gonna be they're gonna have amazing employees or colleagues or be an amazing leader because they understand emotions in a way that the all the other ones, scientific minds, cognitive, yes, don't.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, and they're gonna fail massively and have huge problems.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: They played it out in spoiler alert, but uh that child grew up really thriving, the sister grew up having to go to therapy.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: So it was it was a very distinct difference.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting, and I know it's only fiction.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: Did the child know that the grandfather was that's the I think that's the key point, yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because if the child had known that the grandfather was angry about that, then then the child might have been guilty.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's this is such a great conversation because everything as adults goes so much deeper than we realise, and and actually, if we unpack it all, we have the chance to start a whole new generation of genuinely healthy people, but I think it involves us getting over our own issues first, yeah.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the hard bit.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: We will be back after a tip from Dr.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: Glass.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Also, curiosity.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is a very interesting one.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: I read this recently that curiosity also spikes dopamine.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever you have you have like a craving or you feel like you're having like reenact a pattern that you know you shouldn't be doing, try to be curious about what's happening, because that might give you the relief you're looking for before you actually surrender.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, and I love curiosity because for me it's the gap between the silver lining and where we are at the moment because it's so hard when somebody is really down.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, look on the bright side, you know, what what makes you happy?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's no no no they they can't get there.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: But actually stepping up onto so what what's going on?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: What's happening here?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: Why why did this come about?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: That curiosity gives you that bridge, and once you're on that bridge, it's a lot easier to then go on to the next one.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: Now, how can I feel grateful?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: Or how can I feel a more positive emotion?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: This is such a fascinating conversation on the patterns of behaviour in adulthood that start in childhood, and what we can do about this, if anything, actually, because it takes a lot of self-awareness and a lot of self-reflection as an adult.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: And even then, it could be not too late, but sometimes behaviours have already taken place.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: Certain mindset changes have already happened, and I think that's really difficult.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: So let's go to kind of generational trauma of a question on this.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think would you see patterns of behaviour being passed down in families?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: Not necessarily the same thing.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying my mum was scared of spiders, so I'm scared of spiders, so my children are scared of spiders, but I sort of mean if my mum was anxious, I have anxiety in a slightly different way.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, what sort of A, do you see it, and B, what do you see?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think as I said, uh, we said before, we learn from behavior.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I always use this example to talk to my clients about uh when you went to primary school or kindergarten, you already spoke a language, you didn't learn at school.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's true, yeah.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the same for behavior, how how you relate to people, how you interact.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that had been, you know, under formation already.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we have an emotional education at home that we are not aware of.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And we mimic.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, whenever you see, I think we have the saying like you are always just a newer version of your parents.
• 34:40
  unknown: Yeah, it's true.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: I love that!
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: At some point, it's in Portuguese, we say we're having a big song that talks about it, but yeah.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we are, because there's always a moment in time you're like, oh my god, I'm exactly.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, I'm doing exactly what I don't like that my mom does.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: But because we've learned unconsciously, it's there, it's passed by, it's it's genetics, it's epigenetics, also is also proving that it's another uh part of a scientific uh advancement at the moment.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but we also have this behavioral part that we get unconsciously.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we all do things that our parents do exactly the same way.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the way we speak, the way we sometimes even those say we think, oh, and I'm exactly the same.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes because we learn from behavior.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, it's passed down.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's doing what I I try to say whenever I say this, I don't I'm not blaming parents.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, yeah.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying we are doing our best, but we are doing also a repetition if we're not aware.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why awareness is such a powerful tool to build, a skill to to work on.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, because it does give you a chance to oh maybe I can change this in me.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: I always say people the biggest thing you can do in life and the only thing is change yourself.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: And people think like, oh, that's so I don't know, ego-driven or selfish.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: But it's the only way for you to influence the people around you.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: If I tell you what to do, it means nothing, it only creates resistance.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if I do it myself and you can see that, you might get inspired and say, Oh, he did something completely different here.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I should try to do something similar, and that builds different changes.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and it you relate to that person differently because they've changed in their way of relating to themselves.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's it goes back to when I changed my behaviour around my dog, my dog responded to my changed behaviour.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't tell him what to do, yeah, so I didn't have to.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it it's but it is hard, isn't it?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: It is hard.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: So with that, people can have a normal childhood, and yet there can still be emotional gaps in that childhood.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: And again, this isn't blaming parents or schools or anything like that.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: But what might some of those gaps be?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: I I guess one thing I'm I'm thinking of is if a child is, I don't know, particularly dramatic or whatever, and the parent just isn't.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's just that not the personality.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: Is that a gap?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: Is that a gap or is that something that would that become a problem later on?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think in that example that's a gap.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's um children are different.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they have their own personality.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think whenever you give a safe space for them to just be, that will come.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: They will come.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: They will, you know.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um in my I I'm gonna use my example.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: In my house, in my household, or my whole family, I'm the nerdy one.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because I'm the one who likes to read, I'm the one who likes to study, I'm the one who became a doctor, I'm the my whole family, nobody's in.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's in that studying, reading.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not their thing.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I was the odd one out, and I had to adapt so that I could understand the chaos that is my family.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're loud, they they laugh loud, everything is very up, and I wasn't.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to learn how to adapt.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I I see in me some gaps, but I don't see them as a problem in that in that sense.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh I felt with time that I was safe enough to express myself and say, like, I'm not adapting to this because it doesn't make sense to me.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: As an adult.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: As an adult, as an adult.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of awareness, a lot of work, but yeah, and it is work, and it is all of those things.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: But what I see most as gaps in adults nowadays, it's always comes back to identity and connection.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them don't really know who they are.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever somebody uh and you ask somebody uh, hi, who are you?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: And they start with their profession, their age.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is not who you are.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is why you you've that's what you did.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: But who are you behind that person?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: What are your values?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: What drives you?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get to that, you know, deep, people don't know how to answer.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I don't I don't know what I stand for.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: What are your values?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: What's important for you?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to make?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: What's when you leave Earth?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to leave behind?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: What's your mark?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: What's important to you?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that in adults, we don't see that anymore.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because those are the gaps that they have to adapt so much.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: But they filled it themselves.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: They forged a personality and they no longer know.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the problems start, because they come to me and they say, I don't know what I'm feeling, but something is off.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because I I think I give that example because I've worked with somebody who was always told, Stop being loud, stop being, you know, no one wants to see you, stop showing off, that kind of thing.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: But conversely, I've also worked with people who go and perform.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's on go and go and go and do it, go and do it.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: And both times they've not wanted to be the person that the parent have wanted, but they've had to adapt to it.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: And in one occasion, it was the don't perform, don't perform, go and be a mathematician kind of thing.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: He slammed his degree on this adult degree on the table, that's it, I'm going off to stage school.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: And he got in and he became an opera singer.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it was amazing.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: And then his dad came to see him and went, Oh my god, you're really good.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's beautiful.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: But that's where it can.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: But that's a very good example example of what we were talking about, like accepting the child for who they are and create a space for it to thrive as who they are.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: So and we don't see that much.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Many families have that you have to become a doctor, you have to do this, you have to do that.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And as a society, we've learned to um congratulate or celebrate achievements.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, we celebrate uh grades, yeah, success, talent.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that child learns that self-worth is linked to achievement to achievement, and that's where we start to have problems.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's in the Mrs.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Mason.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, that's what happened.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: All the other ones were like, I have to do that, I have to excel, I have to and they will professionally.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: But but as a human being, mental health-wise, or it's chaos.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, it's empty, isn't it?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's empty.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: Gosh, yeah.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is so interesting.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: Every question that you answer or every thing you say just brings up more questions.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's so interesting.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um so without without therapizing, then, how can parents build mental will mental well-being in with their children on a regular basis?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I know it might sound repetitive, but becoming the safe space.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Awareness about your own emotions, allowing your emotions.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think parents have to learn how to relax a bit.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay if you just want to take a look.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: I if you it's okay if he wants to touch, if it's okay, it's okay to create a safe environment for them, for the child.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it always goes back to the parent being safe.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: So emotionally safe for the parent will resonate with the child so that they can be together.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: So allow yourself to make mistakes and you will allow them to make mistakes too.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's they are at the stage where they should be making mistakes safely.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: If we avoid everything, they cannot touch this, they cannot do that, they cannot.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: We are limiting how much they can explore, and it is the phase to explore.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: It is the phase to know who they are, and not to start, oh, I cannot chat, I cannot do this, I cannot do that.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: There are some rules we live in society, so I understand some rules have to come in place, but they don't have to come as an obligation, as a fight, as a punishment.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: It can be done differently.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: It can be through a guided way to educate and save and listening and being present.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's about you as a person, and this is any relationship.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: This can even be a work uh relationship.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: So a leader to the teams.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: If that leader is constantly going, don't do this, don't do that, don't do the other, and then wonders why their team doesn't isn't working correctly, the next step of that leader is not to change themselves, it is to go, oh, my team needs training.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: My child needs therapy.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: But fix them again.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's the real problem.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: So you know I see that.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: I see that in organizations.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: Something's gone wrong, but instead of you going, hang on, let's have a look at me and what I'm putting out there.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, you go out, fix them, fix them, send them, send them to that's not healthy, is it?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's not emotionally safe.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's back to cognitive again.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: Teach them to adapt differently.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: And if and if and if it's a parent or as a as a leader, you're saying, don't do that, don't touch that, don't go there.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then the child or the team isn't learning self-regulation either.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then they behave differently, and then you go, My child is weird, go and fix them.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's the difference between the boss and the leader.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: That was a boss behavior.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Fix them.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: A leader should show up and say, This is how we behave.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: We behave.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, like the parent showing by example.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: The leader's the same.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: The parent's the leader.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: The child's going to follow.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: I skipped so much.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: That is my work.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: I go in to give people stress busting, and I look at the manager and go, Oh, that's why I've got stress.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: But my my changing is not going to fix them because they're going to go right back to the same environment where they're not allowed to do any of the things I've taught them.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it's so interesting.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: So really interesting.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so talking about parents and children then, what are some realistic self-care strategies that parents and children can kind of take take on board?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess for children, is allowing them to play.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: Allowing them to play, but unstructured play.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Without all the, you know, uh, because I think I see parents sometimes telling them what they're going to do.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: And in schools as well.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: They i I've worked in reception, which is not my bag, but I did do that when I was a teacher, and even in a nursery.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but anyway, uh you're you you say it's playtime, but you have to play with this and you have to play it like this.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think, what's the point?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: They might as well be in a classroom sitting at a desk doing math.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: Think about us.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: Adults, what do we play?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_03: We play tennis and badminton and football, and that's all rules.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, weird, yeah.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: And we get upset when those rules are broke, yeah.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and again, we we put that on, yeah.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: But the best thing is a self-player reality, unstructured and emotional safety.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what's gonna help them thrive and explore and be creative, and please allow them boredom.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you said the idea of having to be entertained constantly, like nobody is, nobody is.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you trying to no?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Please be realistic.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: Boredom is needed, it's necessary.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: We need it for creativity.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Creativity comes out of boredom if you don't allow it to establish you're creating uh a zombie.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: Never please allow them to just be.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: I remember uh when I was in uh clown training, it always comes back.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love it! I think it's I I remember I would come back to my family and had a lot of children at the time.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, let me just get away from my adult personality and just be the clown, me, which is your inner child, again.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what do you want to play?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I would just follow, and it was the craziest thing, it made no sense at all.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, you're a dragon, now you have a spider, and it and and you you're spitting fire, and now you're a fairy, and it was like everything, because the rule is a clown is to say yes.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: So say, okay, and I would just go, and the connection that I have with those adults now is still there.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just because I was present enough to just yes, let's do what whatever you come up with, it's fine.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: And not have to do no, dragons don't do it.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: You have to just accept in this scenario, they do.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: They do eat fairies and they do blow out candles.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know, but just accept whatever comes.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is I put this in one of my books.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's about Picasso saying, and everyone's creative as a child.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: The secret is how to remain creative as a child grows up.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: But the point there is, you know, when you're young and you paint this picture and the sky is this line of blue and whatever.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's fine when you're a child.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: Suddenly you go to school, then the teacher will say, Well, why is it like that?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's wrong.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is this is a big topic for me because I remember I going to to through school and remember going to my teachers and showing whatever I have come up with, and they were like, Oh, but that's not really how we were structuring.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: But this is so creative.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you telling me is aren't you supposed to be because I've I question things.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a big philosopher.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would question my teachers, aren't you supposed to give me space to create?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: How can you say this is wrong?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I would go into the this massive, not fights, but like, okay, I respect the rules, but is this okay for me to leave as it is and start something within the rules?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I would always have like more work, yeah.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because I would do my thing and then whatever they wanted me to do.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I didn't want my creative side to die.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: I do, and it's so funny you say that because it reminds me when I was teaching in primary school.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I did an extension pack for the class, and it was a drama-based extension pack, which was you can create a story, you can create costumes, you can create whatever.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_03: But I remember people saying to me, other teachers, it should be more maths.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: Why should it be more maths or more English?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: The thing that they're already proving they are excelling at, give them more of it.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't that's not the right thing to do.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I kept with my packs, and then I stopped working at yeah, I guess just to answer your question fully.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you said for children, is this for parents allow yourself to take a break.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh recognize when you need some time off, some uh regulating moments, so you can't take a breather.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know it is I'm I don't have children, but I I can see my my sister and my niece.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love my niece, but she can be a lot of work.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Just because she's her just playing and she she needs constant attention.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not used to it, and I get really stressed when I'm around her because she doesn't stop.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, it seems like she can die at every single minute that I'm not looking at her.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's stressful.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I I understand it's so stressful.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I understand parents, like I'm not parenting, but whenever I'm with my niece, because my I can see my sister going, oh for like 10 minutes, and I do this like joyfully because I dance in with her and I play and I I do that, you know, unstructured play with her, and I just go along and she loves it, but I can see my sister going, yeah.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: She could just breathe for a few years.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I can see how that's needed for a parent to actually be regulated within themselves so that they can actually raise a safe, emotional, you know, emotionally safe uh child.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's really important.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Also ask for uh assistance whenever you need.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think parents do that enough.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it comes back to the shame feeling.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: I can see my sister never asks, but whenever I'm with my niece, I can see her just going, Oh, thank God.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can relax.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I wish I I I've told her you can ask I would come for 30, 40 minutes, whatever, just for so you can have a shower.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: And relax in the shower.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or it's simple, it's so little, but yes, I do understand uh the need.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's really, really good advice.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: Gosh, well, we are keeping Dr.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: Gus, and we are actually going to pass Tess the Trend on to onto him.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, what are we doing for Tess the Trend?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought for an exercise because we've talked about how much children learn from behavior and they mirror the parents in a way.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: I thought of an exercise I would do a lot as uh clown in my clowning training, which is to mirror.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a mirroring exercise.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna suggest that you both stand up or look at each other away.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're both short, so this works in this studio.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_03: We don't need to adjust the cameras, right?
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the idea is you copy whatever she does physically, right?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh or expressions, whatever comes.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever you feel ready to lead, you can take over and you can just go on and uh back and forth who's leading on the exercise.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea is that at some point you start to synchronize and to a point where you won't know who's in control of what.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: Let's let's start.
• 53:19
  unknown: Okay.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: That is that is because I could feel it when you were leading.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and then you took it away.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's really it's really nervous.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very interesting exercise because we have what we call uh mirroring uh neurons.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it starts to flag, uh, fire up.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, I can actually do the same.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a great exercise for children and parents because you start to tell them unconsciously, if you start to regulate yourself first emotionally, that it can start to copy YouTube and behaviors.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, but it's a great exercise just to uh play and move your body and let them again unstructured play.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Just let them go if they believe they have to run, you run.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: You just go with the flow and it allows you to connect.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: It allows you to be present, present.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh what I see a lot nowadays is parents trying to give more information, yes, and I think children need more connection, yeah, and that is connection, purely and you know, just connection.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_03: This has been so interesting.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: It really has.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to pick up on the point about mirroring because I know as a child, if your emotions and what you're saying is mirrored back, there's a sort of sense of validation, but then I've also seen where parents mirror whatever the child wants, which means the child has not actually learned no, you know, there's no there's no boundary around it, and then when that child is in another situation and they're not mirrored, they absolutely can't cope with that.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're create I'm sorry, can I go?
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we're creating a society that's making that worse because I think many parents now say, I'm not pointing fingers, but this is just what we see uh in society.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: We are all hooked to our screens.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: So parents are doing the best they can so that to avoid uh conflict.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's needed.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and because we live nowadays in a fast-paced digitally uh digital world, uh everything is curated for you.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we we the children are being raised uh without any I'm gonna say it's algorithm driven.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's everything to fit their own wants and needs and preferences.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's it.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it takes away from them uh the opportunity to explore diversity.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no diversity anymore, there's no way for them to expand the way they think because now it's all structured within your own beliefs.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's really unhealthy, Mary.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: And with time, as an adult, that child's gonna become one of those very polarized uh opinions.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but they've never been faced with opposition in a healthy way.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: They cannot explore something else because now what we have is what we call a cognitive uh rigidity, which is like it's so rigid, it's the only way you know how it works because the platforms make you see the same.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: So now you're no longer able to have a conversation with opposing opinions.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: It always turns into a fight.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or shuts down.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or shuts down.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: And children are being born within that those systems in place.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my word.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my god, we can have that's a whole other show.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, Dr.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: Gus.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where can we learn more about you?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I'm on Instagram uh at at Dr.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Gus Chavez and also my website uh www.guschavez.com.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we will have those with the show notes.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Dr.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_03: Gus.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: Fabulous conversation.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: And from us here at Mental Health Matters, have a healthy week.