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Are We Making Advertising for Algorithms or for People? · The Lead Creative

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Lead Creative and to our Marketers Brief Series, which is brought to you in collaboration with Roger Wilco and Soweto Media.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we talk to Rifilue Malulege, the executive head of marketing for Discovery Health.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: We're also joined by Brigitte Harper, the head of marketing for Volkswagen Group South Africa, and of course by my co-host, Danette Breitenbach, the editor of Biz Community.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: We discuss why so much marketing and advertising work feels so bland, so forgettable, and not distinctive.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_05: I just think there is, you're so right, there is this absolute sea of sameness.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_05: And part of that also comes from the algorithmic treatment of everything nowadays, because the algorithm is going to optimize towards the familiar.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_05: And what we're trying to do as marketers is build, you know, to the not familiar.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_05: We want something to break through.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_05: And so if you're constantly leaning on the all the digital tools and not enough into your consumer and your intuition and creativity, you're going to end up with work that's safe, which again, as I said, safe still sometimes sells products.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_05: It's still, does it build your brand over time?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_05: Probably not.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: We get into the weeds of why developing people actually helps brands remain distinctive, build brand love, and grow over time.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: In competitive markets, we tend to find ourselves chasing our tails, chasing trends, and wanting to hop onto the next trend as it comes along.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about why you shouldn't do that.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think what we've done because we have the ability to do it, um, is just create so much stuff.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and when I'm a consumer, I really do get overwhelmed.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter what platform I'm engaging with, I'm like, this is a lot of rubbish that I'm seeing right now.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's overwhelming because it just makes the job stand out even harder.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I'm seeing, and let me I'll use myself, you know, if I've seen 600 posts from Discovery in a week, um, knowing that that one over there, number 312, was the most important one that I needed people to take out, it's hard, right?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think all brands are guilty of that because we can, because we have the technology to do it and we can create, you know, 300 assets in a week.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's what worries me is that we just keep creating more and more and more and more um without necessarily having the space to really think it through and and create value and tell a story.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we also discuss what some of the previous questions from our previous guests, as usual, were.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't subscribed to the Lead Creative, please do so and check the link in the description below.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Buy us a coffee, keep us free all until the next episode.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the show.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: What is the one thing that marketing exaggerates almost over hypes that is actually much simpler than it sounds?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: The one thing we exaggerate or make a big deal out of that it shouldn't be so complex.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's a difficult question.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna frame it a little differently.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think the one thing that we sometimes make seem a lot more complex than it should be is for me, is the insight.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think sometimes the and we were discussing it earlier, the proliferation of data and tools and resources.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you sometimes get these like 18-page documents when what you actually need is a very simply articulated insight in order to unlock great work um that will connect with people.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think we feel like that's how we have to do it, right?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Without an enormous amount of data and impart and all of that.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the real effort is in the articulation and understanding of that of that true insight.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that happens enough.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think we get distracted by all of the new and shiny, um, and and sometimes forget about the importance of um of landing on something that is really powerful and has the ability to shape behavior, um, which is what we're all here to do.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Bridget, what does marketing overcomplicate in your view?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_05: I couldn't agree with Rafilwe more.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_05: I think the again we were having the data discussion, the amount of data that we have access to, I think it can really cloud what should be.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes the consumer just wants to get from point A to point B, and that's all that they want.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_05: They don't want all this sort of layered stuff.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I think sometimes you've got to just go with uh you know a campaign or an idea or an insight that feels natural and feels simplistic, and you know, great, great creative can grow from that.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sticking with you uh on the question of AI, and there'll probably be a few of these as we have the conversation.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So AI, of course, is criticized for a number of things.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: One of them is missing cultural nuance in marketing, the other of late being sort of inaccuracies that AI kind of brings up whenever there's a prompt.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you, from a business perspective, find value in AI?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And where should agencies still use a lot of human judgment and craft as well as originality when coming up with ideas, even though there's AI?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_05: Well, so in our business, we use AI, you know, on the hour every hour a lot.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_05: And it's from efficiencies, um, streamlining work, uh, you know, from a production point of view, checking gaps in vehicles, like it, you know, every day.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_05: I I personally use it um to write speeches or you know, as thought starters, uh, etc.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_05: Like, and then from a creative point of view, we use it a lot, or the agency uses it a lot for retouching images, adding or or removing objects from images.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_05: Again, maybe sometimes some copy thought starters.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_05: But I think the challenge is that when it comes to ideas, it's only using what already exists.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_05: So there's no originality.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_05: And certainly from a, you know, on the continent, there's I think it's still a little bit behind in terms of our cultural nuances and that.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_05: So I think when it comes to distilling an idea, you still absolutely need human intervention.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_05: So AI is good for that beginning and end, beginning and end, but but not the middle bit, or arguably the middle the the beginning and the end, but yeah.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Rufilo, you've been involved a lot in this effectiveness space through the FEs, through other awards and other spaces that you've occupied from agency to brand.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Does effectiveness make marketing has it made marketing one better?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Of course it kind of does.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: But on the other hand, does it also make brands more risk averse?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because we are aiming for that all the time.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean the short answer is yes, it does.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'll I'll obviously, you know, uh elaborate a little bit on that.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think that brands do become more risk-averse when you can measure everything.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because the challenge is then you're chasing everything.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and what I sometimes see happening is uh two things, right?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when you're judging work um in a number of different spaces.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's sometimes because of what you can measure, you end up chasing vanity metrics that are not actually driving the needle on your on your brand or your business.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So things like um impressions and engagement.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I mean, that's great, but what is it actually delivering um for your brand?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: How do you know that it's deepening the connection that people have with your brand versus I'm gonna win 5,000 Rand if I engage with this post?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then the other one is this uh consistently focusing on commercial metrics.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now, don't get me wrong, commercial metrics are absolutely critical.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not underplaying them at all.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: But when we do that, you see a lot of short-termism um in what people do from a brand perspective and sometimes forgetting that our job is not only uh to generate sales today, um, but to build sustainable demand for your brand and your products into the future.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you aren't focusing on the kind of bold and deeply impactful um work that helps to kind of build the top end of that funnel in a more sustainable fashion, kind of going into the future, then all of this money that you're spending on performance, which is that conversion piece at the bottom, um you're just mining uh an ever-shrinking pot.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that's what I that's what I do sometimes see is that because we can measure this bottom stuff, um we do a lot of it, a lot of this bottom of the funnel, overly focus on it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and sometimes not enough at that kind of top end, the stuff that will only deliver commercial results in another two to three years.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think that that's sometimes the the trade-off that you have.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And what I always nudge people to do is that there are ways to measure that, there are ways to measure long-term salience and impact and painfulness to do that and help your business become astute at navigating that, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: It should be as comfortable for your CEO to speak about revenue as it is for him to talk about the strength of your brand and the long-term equity that you're building.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you must give him or her the language to be able to do that.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that that will be the key to making effectiveness more than vanity metrics or commercial sales, uh, but into things that build kind of long-term brand equity as well.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna stick with you if you don't mind.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um I always find it interesting when somebody's worked in an agency and then they work in going to over to the client side, and you're still very much involved in in judging and in the industry.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: And how does this all add value?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: How do you does it allow you to add value in your organization?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: What do you feel you bring that perhaps somebody else doesn't because of your previous experience?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's gonna sound like I'm being too simple, but empathy.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think um when you have a deep understanding of what happens on both sides of the fence in terms of ambitions, in terms of what success looks like, in terms of pressure points, when you understand those things, um it helps you to become a little bit more effective in navigating um on both sides, on both sides of the fence and helping us hopefully move towards um better work, absolutely, but also better relationships, better partnerships.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I think that that's really a big part of what it gives me.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other one, which I do think is important, but in my view, not as important as the first one, um, is just around a more expansive view of the world.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um in the client side, having been here previously and now being back there, I do find that a lot of marketers can become a little bit myopic um and just focus on kind of my company and this is what we do, or my industry and this is what we do.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: But when you've had the benefit of working in many industries, especially inside uh agency side, your worldview is just bigger, right?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the reality is that just because I happen to be an insurance doesn't mean that what's happening in South America and beer can't help me think through creatively what I'm doing differently.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do think that kind of expansive view of marketing and the industry um is a value that I bring to the table.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, Bridget, the automotive industry, it's been very interesting lately.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_04: There's a lot happening.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I wanted to ask you a little bit about, given everything that's happening, um I did read that some of the sales were really good in April, automotive sales and that, but we've got oil prices going up, we've consumers under pressure, we've got a lot of um new kind of brands entering the market.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: And how is that impacting?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_04: And it must be quite difficult.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_04: You've got a market.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: I find very often the automotive industry is very the same.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_04: So, how are you overcoming these challenges in this sort of almost new marketing environment in the automotive industry sector?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_05: Look, it's the biggest automotive or it's the biggest shakeup in the industry for decades, they say.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and you add to that small, you know, war and fuel prices and the recession, you know, and the financial pressure that middle-income South Africans are really, really feeling right now.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_05: We're in an incredibly difficult space.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and you are right, I think the motor industry is known as one of that sort of sea of sameness.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_05: If you were to, I think at the at the IMM last year, one of the speakers, I won't name and shame, did a montage of auto-adverts and and he and he just said, you know, it could be anybody.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_05: So I think now for us, the time has never been more critical for us to educate our customers in terms of yes, it might have a great info uh infotainment system which is allegedly free, but is it safe?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um, your you know you know, your engine warranty might come with, you know, X amount of kilometers, but what exclusions are there?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_05: So people really need to start interrogating the fine print or get caught with their pants down in in years to come.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_05: So it's never been more important for us to really keep that creative distinctiveness that I think Volkswagen is famous for, um, and to really emotionally engage with our consumers.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's this conversation that we always have, or at least that we I had in the previous episode about data.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And Discovery sits in a very unique position of having all of this data that you use effectively to target um customers, to communicate, to be there at the right times and instances.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that we are finding, I think to Bridget's point earlier about data, um the thing that we are finding is that quite a lot of the callet dull work out there is very much data informed.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's very much data-led.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: How do you sort of avoid being too data-led, less instinctive, and less emotionally resonant to people when you have so much data?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a great question.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, what data shows you is observations.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for us, what's critical is to understand why those things are happening.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me, that's when the real power happens, right?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: When you combine um this observed behavior, which is what data shows you, which is very important to know what people are doing and what they are not doing.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and as a marketer, you focus your energy on understanding why these things are happening or why these things are not happening.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because then you really understand the kind of levers you need to pull in order to kind of shift people in the direction that you would like them to shift in.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I and I do think that that's the yeah, that's that's where the magic happens.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um the data is hugely valuable for us and we look at it all the time.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I can tell you for nothing that we look at it and constantly ask ourselves, do we really understand why this is happening or not happening?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where the magic happens.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Coming back to you, Bridget.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a conversation with David Case a couple of episodes ago, and he was telling me about the pitch, the global pitch process that they had to enter into to win your work again.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: How does an agency firstly keep winning your trust and winning the relationship daily while competing for the same piece of work to win it again and competing for it at a global level?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, um, with difficulty, to be honest.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_05: And we're very blessed in that relationship that is uh you know much bigger than the individuals, um, that it's a long-lasting relationship, and there's a huge amount of trust there as well.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I think so it wasn't a global pitch, it was a local pitch, but but but because of our global procurement rules.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_05: So every five years, it is what it is, every single supplier of Volkswagens needs to pitch every three or five years, depending on certain factors.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um and it was a lengthy process and it was um very emotionally charged.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_05: But I think the way that we successfully navigated through it was that first of all, Ogil via consummate professionals, and we had to almost like separate the two meetings.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_05: So if we're in a meeting about the pitch, then it's about the pitch and it is what it is, and you come in with those emotions.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_05: And if it's about the work, we put the work at the center of what we're doing and we carry on and focus with professionalism.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, everybody collectively in the Ogle V and VW marketing team is we're all incredibly passionate and proud about what we do.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_05: So we didn't let the pitch process interfere with the you know, the quality of work and yeah, and and that relationship.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_05: But I think it's also important to distinguish that if it was, I think they had a couple of different types of pitches.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_05: If you were put on notice because your client was not happy and then you were out to pitch, that would be incredibly challenging to maintain that relationship.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_05: But in this instance, it was not for that reason.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and so yeah, we navigated it with difficulty, but in the in the end, everybody lived.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_05: And and we've got, I think what's maybe not known in the industry is there's a couple of different business units.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_05: So there's five different business units.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_05: So it was quite, you know, everybody had their own kind of set of criteria that they needed from the agency shopping list.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and so that was why it became quite sort of drawn out and and and got quite complicated.
• 19:52
  unknown: Yeah.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Just a quick follow-up from what Danette said before I hand over back to Danette.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's this, yes, it's a difficult year in the automotive industry.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was a difficult year last year, but we also saw that last year and this year, actually the automotive sector is performing better.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: The sales are better.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Last year, I think it was it was the best it had been in 12 or 10 years or whatever the case is.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And this year, again, the same thing, um, sort of quarter on quarter.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that the industry did five years ago, four years ago, to reap these rewards today?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because what we are seeing today is that of course oil prices affect sales.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, there's growth in hybrid or marketing of hybrid vehicles, electric vehicles.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it means this investment happened three, four years ago for us to be seeing the results today.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: What did you have to think about then to reap these rewards now?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_05: No, I don't think that that is the case.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think it was what was previously done.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_05: It's because there's a there's you know, more than 20 new black high-value brands that have entered the market.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_05: So it's a new, they're completely new brands that are offering products that are you know highly value-driven.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_05: So huge on technology, low on price, um, that sort of thing.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_05: We still in in this market, we're still not seeing huge uh growth in EV.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I think there are very some various obvious reasons for that.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and the brands that are entering with hybrid offerings now are taking advantage of the revolting petrol fuel increases that we're paying.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah, I don't think it was something done by the industry years ago.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's the new entrance of brands that are are unlocking um, you know, new customers that potentially in the past couldn't have played in the in the autospace and and now can.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_04: To follow up on that, actually, I find it quite interesting if you look at the new competition coming in and then legacy brands.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I was reading about it the other day.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of the new brands are offering the kind of things you're talking about, that technology and that, but then you get a legacy brand that offers you that years and years of reputation.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_04: And there's something to be said for that.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_04: And VW falls into that category.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_04: And you spoke earlier about that emotional connection.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_04: So I grew up with VW, I grew up with the ads.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_04: So when you recently remade your 80s ad, I really related to that emotionally, and and so the brand is quite established for me and is a brand I would easily buy.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: How have you, but I'm a little bit older, so how are you doing this with younger generation who might look at the new brands and see this flashy, the technology?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: How do you then make sure that you're not some old legacy brand, so to speak, but that the new generation or younger generation sees you and has an emotional connection like I do?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think we've got to continually position ourselves as culturally culturally relevant.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and yeah, thank you for for recognizing that ad.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_05: It was a reimagination of an old ad, not a remake.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_05: And we we intentionally tried, I hope we succeeded, to make sure that people that remembered the old ad felt that emotional resonance resonance, but that newer customers that had no connection to that still kind of had some kind of feeling.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there's not one single actor in that in that commercial, they're all our factory workers.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um, people were people were crying when they were doing the logo because there's a huge amount of pride in our company for the badge.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_05: Like that's what we you know, that's what we all live to just polish the polish.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_05: The badge.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah, I think part of our challenge is that all the people that have grown up with vehicles in the home, with you know, mothers and fathers that educated them about you know what to look for when you're shopping, we've got a whole new segment now of people that don't have that legacy, and they've you know, and and to add it to that incredibly price-sensitive South African customer.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_05: So people are honestly looking at affordability, it's incredibly important.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_05: So we can never compete and will never compete.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_05: Our DNA is not like that on that price point.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_05: You're never going to see a cheap Volkswagen.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_05: Um that's just not what the brand is about.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_05: But where we have to continually sweat and flex is to remind people about reliability, parts availability, look at the exclusions on your service and warranty safety, incredibly important.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you're investing, it's the second biggest thing that you'll invest in.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and so just to tie back to what Rafilwe was saying about brand, I think for for brands like ours that are very, very high on trust, you know, you're not changing your medical aid every every year or so, and people are buying, please don't, yeah, and people are not buying cars every year, although please, please do.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_05: So I think for us versus like an FMCG or whatever, that building the brand element, that brand forward stuff, is probably 90% of what we should do versus the 10% in performance marketing, or you know, that that shorter, shorter burn kind of activity.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_04: It's interesting.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: And it does bring me to the health.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_04: So I find health fascinating.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_04: There's a few big trends in the world that have taken off, and health and wellness.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: And they're two of my favorites.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think Discovery was sort of read that really well, way ahead of everybody else, because the vitality thing, you know, you've got to get your points for the week, whether you're getting it for coffee or you're playing the board or whatever it is.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean, that's just grown in its sophistication.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: So, what are some of the biggest challenges and trends that you're seeing coming through in health?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I say wellness as well, because there's a lot of wellness happening now.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_04: It's all about your sleep, it's all about being proactive, it's about lifting heavy now so that when you're 80, you're not old and decrepit.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: And how are you sort of playing that forward to meet the needs?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's like it's also evolving constantly.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for that reason, it's quite exciting, right?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: That there's just so much that's happening.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and a couple of things, right?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think um the one which is um one of the challenges for us to navigate is that because there is so much happening, there is just this proliferation of people and brands who purport to be experts in this space.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so the noise in a healthcare space is is challenging, right?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And for people to figure out am I supposed to do that?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Am I not?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is this a credible piece of advice?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it not?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is actually very, very difficult.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so for us, that is absolutely one of the um, let me say, the dark underbelly um of what's happening.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and to what Bridget was saying earlier on, you know, how do we make sure um that when people do have questions, um we are one of the trusted sources that they go to?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, we more than many others have a very vested interest in keeping you healthy, right?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's uh it's fundamental to our business model.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that for us is a big one.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and connected to that is, you know, the the need for us to make sure that whatever you get from uh um advice and recommendations and things that you should do is personalized.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think, and I think it's a wonderful thing, you know, over the last let's call it 10, 15 years or so, um, as a society, we've become so um accustomed to things being personalized and being recommended, things that are only for us.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, if I you know, if we start back, I think Amazon was potentially one of the first ones to start doing it, whatever that was 15 years ago.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and as we think about different industries, it happens more and more and more.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so is healthcare, um where it potentially has the most impact, how do we do that?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but being personalized and how we make recommendations to you is is absolutely absolutely critical for us.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think the the third point around kind of how healthcare is evolving and and and and trends and how that moves forward, um, is making sure that we are constantly um staying ahead of that um and knowing what are the things that we are learning that can help move the needle.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um you mentioned sleep um earlier, which um you know, gentle plug, we've we've recently we've recently launched our sleep rewards where you literally get rewarded for sleeping, which is so great.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's taken over from protein.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love this.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love this.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here for it.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're all gonna talk about how we slept last night.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely going to happen at some point, um, which is which is amazing.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and then people often ask us, how did we get there?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's not particularly sexy, right?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: We read a lot.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's how you stay informed and stuff.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: And a professor called Matthew Walker wrote a book many years ago called Why We Sleep.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and some of the people in our business read it and were like, gosh, this is the new health frontier.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's taken us the last couple of years to be able to get there and develop something that is viable and accessible, etc.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: But that's that's um that's the the big thing for us as well, is staying ahead of the different trends that we see.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: But it's actually kind of rising chronicity and illness incident, especially amongst younger and younger people.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's one of the absolutely, you know, when we look at the incidents of chronicity, the incidence of cancer, the incidence of especially mental health, um, you know, younger people who should be healthy for longer are getting sicker and sicker.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and what compounds that um is that the cost of health care um is continuously rising.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you have younger people who potentially are not really able to afford private health care because it is expensive, um, but have a greater need for it, um, which does create this real tension in terms of how we how we solve for it as an industry.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Why are younger people getting ill?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is it because they're at home?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: We live very we live very poor lives, very poor lifestyles, sorry.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um so people are uh working harder, stressed more, eating poorly, um, sometimes exercising less.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm generalizing this is kind of at a holistic level.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's of course people who don't do that.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we do, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Greater levels of stress, greater levels of isolation, um uh uh greater levels of um, yeah, just poor, poor habits, really poor habits, um, sleeping less and less and less because sleep uh you know uh not sleeping is a flex, right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: That you know, um, gosh, I only got four hours last night.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, look at me.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I really hope so.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: At the moment, not yet, right?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we're still seeing quite a lot of data that speaks, and and you know, my data is always backward looking, right?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't look going forward.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we do, you know, when we look at as a scheme, we obviously process a large number of claims, and there's a uh a huge amount of um yeah, just clinicity.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's clinicity that's getting me uh younger and younger.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: So I recently um attended the spend trends 2026.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'd go every year, it's fabulous.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um and one of the things that highlighted was health, but also the use of weight management medicine, which we're now seeing as one of the biggest health spending trends according to your study.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like something like one in every so many households, one person out of a household of three is using this.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I wanted to know, so and this comes back to your what do we know about this?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_04: How do you research it?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_04: You hear this, you hear that.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_04: So, how do you find out about it?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_04: But I know that Discovery is does offer it on a program, uh a management program.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_04: And so also these medicines, they're reshaping how we spend.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_04: We we spend more on healthy foods now, according to the survey.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_04: How do you go about tracking this and then how do you then decide to implement them?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like, well, you did it with your sleep, but I know you're also doing it with a is it GLP1?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_04: G LP1.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_04: There we go.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_04: Woo-hoo.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so you're offering this as a program to people, and they they, I mean, it's a whole thing, it's very, it's done very well.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_04: It's not like because you do hear about these people who buy at gray market and then inject themselves and and and all of this and apparently end up looking like a skeleton.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_04: But anyway, yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_04: So how do you take that and make it, you know, make sure that it works and that that nothing bad happens, so to speak?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a good question because it's uh and it's a massive priority for us and how we think about it now.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: So at the moment, um, a lot of GLP ones in terms of what they were intended for was around to diabetes care, right?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the people who have access to them in terms of on the on the scheme, et cetera, um, are people who have diabetes and so they're using it for that purpose.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we're not naive to the fact that people are obviously using it for weight loss and weight loss and the um and the development of GLP ones that are much more focused on that.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so for us, our role and what we think about a lot is how do we make sure that we are empowering people to use those things responsibly?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how do we make sure that we're empowering them with the you know the right um information, helping to empower even our um our healthcare partners that we work with all the time to make sure that people are using it responsibly, because you are right, people are using it and it's creating some problems because they're just kind of buying it off the gray and going for it.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for us, there's a there's a massive sense of responsibility, and um, there's some exciting things we're working on around how do we um become a little bit more intentional and aggressive in making sure that people are empowered to make good choices around not just the GRP1, but all the things that need to go around it in order to make sure you have a safe and healthy um outcome by using those products.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Bridget, we hear a lot about you mentioned it earlier from the talk at the IMM as well about advertising being set almost set by category, like that if you remove the badge, it looks the same in a different brand, that it's less brave, that it's more forgettable, right?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: And in in every single room that these decisions are made, there are smart people deciding to choose a route that feels safe, deciding to go with a route that feels less distinctive.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: From a marketer's perspective, how do you decide that we're going with a route that feels safe, or does it not feel safe at the time when you make a decision like that?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_05: And I think this is where maybe way too many years of experience do play a role because you can intuitively see, you know, whether something suits your audience.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_05: And also I've been doing this job on this brand particularly for a long time.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_05: So I can recite the brand print, you know, off off by heart.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_05: Um I think part of the part of the problem is hidden in your question, which is there's a room full of people.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_05: And I, you know, recently we were evaluating some creative work and I counted 10 Volkswagen people on the call.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_05: So I actually afterwards said we need to make a smaller circle, three of us max, three, four of us maximum.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_05: Because ultimately, you know, data or no data, at the end of the day, everybody's got an opinion about advertising.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_05: Even my mother, you know, should she be weighing in on these decisions?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_05: You know.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_05: Um, a friend of mine, anecdotally, a friend of mine did tell me the other day about a CMO that they used to work with, and he would take the work home every night to show it to his wife, and then he would come back, you know, in in the morning.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I think part of yeah, part of the challenge is everybody does have an opinion.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_05: So if you account for legal and compliance and your boss and your boss's boss, and global and you know, everybody, and then throw in your spouse, you are going to end up with work that I mean, safe, there's nothing wrong with safe work, but you're going to end up with very bland work that is not differentiated at all.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_05: And the differentiation now, I think, in the the you know, the conversations that we're all having about long-term and short term, that differentiation, that distinctiveness is so important.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_05: And you're not going to get that from a committee of people weighing in on, you know, what do I think about this colour?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_05: And, you know, I used to have a friend who said that and I didn't like him, etc.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_05: It just, it, it just, it can't, it cannot work.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_05: So you need a, you know, a tight group of experienced people that have a deep understanding, not just of the brand, but also of the surprise, surprise, the consumer.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_05: And that seems like such an obvious point.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_05: I can't tell you how often I need to remind people in the room, like, let's take this, let's stop navel gazing, and let's put it back to the to the consumer.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_05: And I think, you know, part of the chaos that we find ourselves in in today's world is we're spending way too much time staring at screens and not enough time out there talking to people.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_05: You know, um, we did an exercise recently with the agency where we just went into a shopping center and we broke up into groups and then we regrouped afterwards and feedback what we observed.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it's so basic, but it was kind of you know enlightening because we could have been looking at PowerPoint charts about, you know, what people do instead of just going to observe it ourselves.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_05: Obviously, with the filter that it's, you know, one shopping center in Capes on, et cetera.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah, I just think that there is, you're so right, there is this absolute sea of sameness.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_05: And part of that also comes from the algorithmic treatment of everything nowadays, because the algorithm is going to optimize towards the familiar.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_05: And what we're trying to do as marketers is build, you know, to the not familiar.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_05: We want something to break through.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_05: And so if you're constantly leaning on the all the digital tools and not enough into your consumer and your intuition and creativity, you're going to end up with work that's safe, which again, as I say, safe still sometimes sells products.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_05: It's still, does it build your brand over time?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_05: Probably not.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and sometimes I think you're doing a category job as well.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_05: So I see this toothpaste, I think it's Colgate, but it was actually Aquifrace, you know, et cetera.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Rufulo, you've spent almost an equal amount of time, excuse me, almost an equal amount of time in brand and in agency.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And now you're back on the brand side.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're also, of course, the co-chair of FE's South Africa.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: What goes wrong between the ambition to go big and the work that feels bland?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely agree with Bridget.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, nothing brave ever happened by consensus.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's not uh a thing when you have 30 people in a room uh uh trying to uh approve something.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I do want to take a little step back.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think the first point um that I see happening a lot is a very poor brief.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds so foundational and so obvious to the point that you were raising.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I do think that when the brief is not clear on the problem that you're trying to solve for and with who, um, and I see that a lot, um nobody has a chance of developing anything great.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: You won't.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um all you're going to do is something that tells you all about our products and how amazing our products are, um, and to your to Bridget's point, uh, completely loses sight of the consumer and the actual problem we're solving for.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think number one, the brief is not always um clear enough or strong enough.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'll go back to the consensus point.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: What often happens is that then everybody wants that their little ask inside the brief.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want us, I want to tell them about this and tell them about this, and don't forget that, and we've got to do this, and and all of a sudden you have this like 20-point plan that you need to execute again.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I think bad briefs is one.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other point that I see happening a lot, um, and I was talking about it quite recently to a few people, is a lack of respect for um the skills and expertise of the different disciplines.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you have to respect, once you've clear you've got a great brief, you must respect that your strategist is great and is going to help you find a meaningful insight that you can address.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Respect the creative and whoever's working on it, that they are competent and capable and will help you develop something extraordinary.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Respect the skills of your media team.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do think when you personally think you can do all of this better than all of them, um, it can be it can be problematic and drive the wrong behaviors in terms of creating great work.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I do see that.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then the last point is it which is underlying all of them, is what I was saying to you, right?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Even a beautifully great idea that is just magical.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, by the time it's gone through um all of the different forums and stakeholders, sometimes it's lost as magic.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think what I've found a lot of kind of award-winning work does very well is using that input as input, as data points, right?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: It is important what your boss's boss's boss and the global team and the head of design and the head of RD, it's important what they think.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but ultimately you are the marketer, um, and you should use those things as data points to inform your choice.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it cannot be the only way in which you make your choice, because then you do end up with bland safe work.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, so for me, those are the things, and it sounds like I've said a lot, but it's just poor briefs, not respecting the disciplines and um disaggregating the decision to other people um rather than owning the decision for for yourself.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_05: There's a lot to be said about going back to basics, actually.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_05: And I think this is probably the third or fourth time that either one of us has said it sounds simple, but and we over overcomplicate things.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_05: And then just to add on to that, that the other thing is craft.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_05: And I think again, you know, a trade of of yesteryear that seems to be have largely been forgotten is that your good idea is becomes it can become a great idea through like craft, craft something with an inch of its life.
• 41:41
  unknown: Yeah.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess, oh, sorry.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Bridget and I were chatting about it earlier.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when it comes to how we develop our talent, right?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're in a uh um uh agency landscape or or a marketing landscape, um, you know, you know, those skills that we're talking about don't happen accidentally.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's the intentional development of individuals, um, you know, over many, many years inside of different organizations.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think uh, you know, we're guilty of not doing enough of that.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we really are, and it's something that I feel very strongly about and trying to see what we can do.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, we have to invest an enormous amount of time and energy in growing our people and not just sitting them in front of laptops, um, but helping them learn these different skills and and appreciate them and um and understand how to deploy them.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's it's such a it's such a challenge that we need to solve for because I do see at the moment an ever-widening gap between the kind of executive level, whether it's that agency or us, and and and the significantly junior level.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_04: It's interesting and it's a point I wanted to ask you both.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_04: How do you because and I was reading the other day again about essay breweries and how they everyone knows about how their creative process works.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_04: But then I was reading about how sometimes they take an idea that's an okay idea.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's maybe not great, but they kind of sit on it and ponder it and that, and sometimes it becomes a great idea.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_04: So, how do you cultivate a creative process within your organizations?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you are healthcare medical aid, you're an automotive organization.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_04: So, how do you cultivate that creative process so that it's respected?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_04: And then also so that you could develop the talent within it.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_04: It kind of relates a bit to that.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_05: Well, the talent development thing is also incredibly important to me, and I agree with Rafil, where completely there's, and that's my point earlier that I was saying about intuition.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_05: Intuition, I don't think you're born with intuition.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's something that's nurtured over time and it comes with experience, it comes from making mistakes.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and the challenge with talent is we're also caught in this hamster wheel right now, like it's just wild everywhere, I think, especially in an organization like mine where the marketing team is very lean.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_05: So I in an ideal world, um, you would be sitting with your, you know, your junior entry-level staff and talking them through why I think this and not this, and why that word doesn't work and that image doesn't work.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_05: You really need to like find, articulate what it is that you're kind of looking for and what distinguish one what distinguishes one campaign from another.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_05: Am I always doing that?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_05: Honestly, no, because you know, we don't we don't have the time.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_05: So in an ideal world, that would be it.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, there's lots of training out there, but there's nothing that beats on the ground learning.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so so I agree.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think um how we are looking at it at the moment.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, firstly, we are still building our creative process that actually um is something that didn't really exist in a documented, sort of regimented way.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was kind of sitting in the intuition of leaders, which is um can be problematic if you don't codify something.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we are working actually on exactly that, on codifying what is our creative process.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I and I do think that there's kind of two parts to it, right?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, the process, um, also making sure that people are clear on what are the competencies that a marketer needs, um, and and what are the ways in which people need to go about building that?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, so kind of foundational and sort of fundamental.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, does your newest assistant brand manager or consultant or whatever you call them, um, do they know what an insight is?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do they know why it matters and how you get one?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do they know what makes a great brief?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do they know all of you know what I mean?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: These are the the kind of competencies that we need to be really intentional in in teaching people.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I know when I started out, which is at Unilever, I literally had a massive um, you know, those ring file binder things that you have a stick that you used to lift up to be able to open.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we got, and that was what you worked your way through through the course of the year, right?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: You were learning different skills, and this is what success looked like, and um, and I do think that that is absolutely critical to making sure that we're growing the kind of marketers we want to see.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then of course making sure that we uh I'm gonna get shot for this because I know young people hate it.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um but they have to be in the room.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know, and I I get it, people you know, don't wanna they don't want to work from home and have a lot of um on-screen meetings, and I get it, I really do.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: But there is nothing to replace watching Bridget and Pete Case in the room having a conversation about creative, about strategy.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: The stuff you learn just by being a witness to that conversation, even if you're not ready to add to it, um, at least for me, was transformational.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when I was starting out seeing my marketing VP and the chief creative officer and the chief director officer of our agency, being a being there for those conversations was was absolutely transformational in terms of how I think about stuff.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think those are the things, right?
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: Those three things critical.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the the the the the complexity, and I think um, I mean, I'm on the agency side, and we are trying to do that, we do that quite a lot, right?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: We try to do that a lot, this whole taking people into these rooms.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, however, you don't know how many people there's too much people from your side sitting there learning on the sidelines, right?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: When you are sitting across the table from a CMO and marketing director who's a busy person and doesn't, and sometimes it's as though these people aren't adding any value by being there.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: How do we balance that on on on both sides?
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't know how much is too many, how much what's sort of too many people and interns sitting there watching, and I don't know from your end what your perception is of us having too many people in the room who are not adding value.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: How do we balance this?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_05: Look, I think you've also got to accept that some skills and information has to be cascaded.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_05: So it's not it's not Rafielbear's entire team sitting in every single meeting.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_05: You've got to read the room as well, pick the meeting.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_05: If it's a you know a sticky or heated meeting with the MD, maybe you don't bring the end.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_05: But I think I I'm I'm quite intentional about who I invite when.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_05: And if I see you sitting multitasking in a meeting, then my my blood pressure goes through the roof because your opportunity to be sitting with senior people in the room is to learn, it's not to do the work necessarily.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, I think you've just got to read the room on the type of meeting and not have everybody all the time.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_05: And maybe, maybe it could be project-based.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_05: So this particular thing is for that, you know, cluster of people and that thing's for that cohort, you know, something like that.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for me, um uh to kind of also make it manageable for my team, um, my rule is one you can only have one person who's in there for a purely developmental reason.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, to British point, you you choose, right?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna be we're negotiating fees, that's certainly not it.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you have one, only one person, um, and you're intentional about why this person, etc.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then that's uh it's a for me anyway, it's a very it's a much more practical rule of thumb because you're not gonna develop 10 people at the same time.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_04: Both of you are uh very active in the industry.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um I don't know how many years, is it your third or fourth year doing the FEs now, co-chair?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's the third year, yeah.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_04: And um, Bridget, you are going to Cannes.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_04: You're part of the shortlisting jury for social and creative this year.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_04: Congratulations.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_04: So, how important is it to be involved?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, what are the benefits of being involved?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_04: What does it help you give you insights?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_04: Going to Cannes, for example, or sitting with the FEs, and how important are awards?
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_04: Can I ask that question?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, okay.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_04: How important are awards to marketers?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_05: Two very different questions.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_05: I think look, I'm I'm active in the industry because I love it.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_05: There's no other reason, there's not a Volkswagen reason.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_05: If I, you know, if I were to work for a toilet paper brand next week, I would still be involved in the industry because I also think it's part of keeping current and things change at such a rapid pace.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I think the perception of people is that when you become a you know head of marketing CMO level, that you know everything that's categorically not the case.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I need to stay fit kind of thing.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so that was your first question.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_05: The second awards, I mean, look, they are they can be seen as very egotistical.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_05: And I think people outside the advertising and marketing industry possibly don't really understand the role that they play.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_05: But at VW, we consider them to be important, not at the sacrifice of, you know, we don't win at all costs.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but when we do win, I take it as a recognition that we are building distinctive assets, that we are building culturally relevant current work that will be noticed in this, you know, sea of sameness.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_05: So they're very important to me as a sort of a compass.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_05: Are we still are we still there or not?
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_05: But you're not gonna throw, you know, throw yourself on the floor and start crying if you don't, if you don't get a gold.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_05: But I do I do see them as an important benchmark.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_05: And then also internally building confidence in the marketing team because this is uh, you know, I work in an engineering-led business, not a marketing-led business.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_05: So it it does help me to kind of uh to elevate the marketing team so that people understand that you know, in the African Middle East context, we are seen as best in class in our industry.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_05: So that builds that internal confidence, and then very important for the agency to attract and and and develop and maintain talent.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_05: So the yeah, very important for for us.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I'm gonna answer the question too if I'm allowed to, uh, because I think this good.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yes, uh very involved in the industry.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: I agree, I love that because I love it.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: I do, it's a lot of fun.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um otherwise I wouldn't I wouldn't be doing it.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh, I also just think we every single market, whether you know it or not, is impacting the perception of our industry wherever you go.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and to not actively shape that, to kind of let it happen by itself, means you don't understand brand building because that's that's our job, right?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: To figure out how we create the perceptions that we want to create.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think the more you're involved in your industry and what's happening, and rather than being a passenger to it and being quite passive, um is is so critical.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, it's yeah, anyway, because we all want to be able to make sure that, you know, CMOs have a seat at the table of decision-making and on forming where businesses go to.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if Bridget is letting down the team at VW, it means that next time there's a junior person in her team who wants to be CMO, they're just going to be the person who makes pretty pictures and they're not going to have an opportunity to shape business decisions.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and Bridget would never do that, to be clear.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do think uh never, never, never, never.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that that's that's important.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and we do that by you know collectively learning, collectively growing, um, and exposing ourselves to what happens um elsewhere elsewhere in the world.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a that's a big part of the reason I do it, and also because I like developing people, and that's a great way to do it, right?
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: To kind of make sure people are exposed to great things.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then in terms of um awards, um, yeah, you see, I spent too long in advertising.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: I do care about awards, I really do.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I must admit, uh, for me, the the only awards that I'm interested in are the ones that have some kind of efficacy measure.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, that's why I'm so involved in FEs.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: I feel very strongly about it, because that for me is the thing that gives credibility to marketing in your organization.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can talk to my CEO about FEs um because I'm clear that this is what we did and how it impacted results.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I also like the discipline of having to tell that story that helps your team think through how you've done stuff.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and fortunately, more and more awards are taking um effectiveness measures as standard, right?
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know Kan does now has a thing about effectiveness, I know Louis does as well.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: So um that for me, those are the awards that I covet, if I can call it that way, um, the most.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: So my second last question starting with um with you, Rufilio, if marketing continues on its current path, what worries you about its future and what gives you optimism?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: What worries me is more and more and more noise.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think what we've done, because we have the ability to do it, um, is just create so much stuff.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and when I'm a consumer, I really do get overwhelmed.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what platform I'm engaging with, I'm like, this is a lot of rubbish that I'm seeing right now.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's overwhelming because it just makes the job stand out even harder.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I'm seeing, and let me, I'll use myself, you know, if I've seen 600 posts from Discovery in a week, um, knowing that that one over there, number 312, was the most important one that I needed people to take out.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard, right?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think all brands are guilty of that because we can, because we have the technology to do it and we can create, you know, 300 assets in a week.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's what worries me is that we just keep creating more and more and more and more um without necessarily having the space to really think it through and and create value and tell a story.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that worries me.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um what excites me the most is the people, and it always will be, right?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just have the most extraordinary people in marketing, in advertising.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and because our job is to tell human stories that connect people to our brands, I'm really optimistic that we will kind of you know orient ourselves back, right?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: The pendulum will swim and swing a little bit back.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you do start to see it in some organizations investing more heavily in brand than performance.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's starting to happen.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm hoping that that pendulum continues to kind of uh shift back to making sure we we tell stories that people want to see, you know, stories that people will connect with and care about and remember.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a a story that um I've been told before, and I'll I'll sanitize it so there's no people in it.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there was a person um who bought um a very, very expensive car.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um because Bridget's here, I'm gonna say it's an R8 or that.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go with that.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go with that.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure it wasn't, but I'll go with that.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and somebody asked him why he bought this car, and he was just like, you know, when I was 10 years old, I saw this story, and I just absolutely loved it.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I promised myself one day that is exactly what I'm going to do for myself.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's like a 40-year journey between a 10-year-old person and the person who ultimately bought that vehicle.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: But that's, I mean, that is profound connection, and that's what you want.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I mean when I say our job is to create sustainable demand.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: You want people to want your products and brand in 30 years, not just in the next 30 days.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I'm really optimistic that the people will do that.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_05: I heard it just I just want to build on that quickly.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_05: I heard um Rory Sutherland this morning on a on a podcast, he said, I'm very bad at remembering quotes, so I won't quote him, but the message was he was saying performance marketing should have been adding a bow to the to your bow and arrow, but instead we've thrown away the whole the whole bow.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_05: So it's become the focus because it's so measurable and 100 million impressions, oh, attractive, versus a TV ad that I put out there in into the ether.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_05: Did it work?
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_05: Didn't it work?
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_05: Who's to say, whatever?
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_05: So he said it's you know the baby out of the bathwater kind of thing.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and the the whole large portion of the podcast they were talking about, the all the principles from 20 years ago actually still apply.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and more of us could learn from that.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_05: So, again, back to the talent management discussion to try and get back to basics and back to you know, what what are the basic principles of marketing and and what actually works?
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_05: And do your 100 million impressions even mean anything if nobody notices your work?
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, and what excites you about marketing or where it's going?
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, it's just such a fun job.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_05: I mean that's why I've been stuck here for 17 years.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_05: I also came from an agency background, so I think I've just got, I mean, I have a degree in drama, worked in advertising for 100 million years and now marketing.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_05: It's just creativity is it's a it's a beautiful intersection for me of being creative and logical and organized and systematic.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_05: And that just it really excites me.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one thing that excites me as well.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: Just that the realm of what's possible has completely transformed.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm, I mean, I'm hoping we we take that in the way that it should be, right?
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: Not to create more nonsense, but to do things that were inconceivable before.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just I'm always astounded by the things that are possible nowadays.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that also excites me.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: Brigitte, do we ask our guests to pass the mic to our next guest by leaving them a question around marketing, advertising, or their creative process?
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: One of our previous guests was Sidney Bell, the ARPSA Group Chief Brand Marketing and Corporate Affairs Officer.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the question he left was what's your take on the next frontier of what marketing measurement will be that tracks, for certain that's completely tracked.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_05: I don't have a crystal ball.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but I did hear, just again anecdotally, I I heard something quite fascinating last week of one of our group companies, I won't say who.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_05: They have one global marketing measurement, one KPI, just one KPI, and that's brand image.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_05: And I thought that was fascinating because in a world where you could measure literally a hundred things, because we have so much data, to just go at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is how people perceive your brand, really, if we're honest with ourselves, you could have delivered X amount of ads, engagement click-throughs that indicate nothing actually.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_05: At the end of the day, if you are, if you do have a survey like you were referencing earlier, to measure your brand salience, your brand trust, your brand, you know, um it's difference, meaning, etc., all of that.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_05: So I I don't know.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe maybe we're gonna go full circle and go straight back to the 80s and just have some some more simplicity in our lives.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_05: I really hope that is the case.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you I'll give you a moment to think about your question.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: Rafilo, I'll come to you um and ask you to pass the mic.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, rather uh give you a question that was passed over to you um by one of our previous guests.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the guests we had was Jessica Wheeler, the chief brand and customer officer of Nando's.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the question she left was what trend is way overhyped in marketing?
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, I'm not sure I enjoy your guests much.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's true, that's true.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, what trend is way overhyped?
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um for me, it's it's gonna sound weird to say, um, but social media trends.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think um we all have this tendency to want to jump on every single trend within that space.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of them, right?
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: But like every other week there's something, and and inevitably a brand will jump on it, or many brands will jump on it.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think we overplay the importance of those things and the role that they play.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, given your brand, who you are, your audience, how you want to connect with them, um we get distracted by that, and that does become noise.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's not always relevant for you for you to do that.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I know it's tempting because it's cool and hairbivened and people want to do it.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think that's a big one.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the other one, sorry, I'm gonna say it anyway.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's uh worrying about what your competitors are doing.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um I agree, like I said earlier about data points, what your competition is doing is an important data point.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I I get the sense that a lot of organizations want to respond immediately.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: The second that your competitor does something, you're like, oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we respond to that?
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's a distraction, right?
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, focus on who you are and what you bring to the table and why people should choose you and engage with you.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, don't play it small.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think when you're obsessed about what your competitors are doing all the time, um, you are playing it small and you're limiting yourself to what it is that you can do.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that almost comes full circle because if your competitor is chasing a trend this week and you respond immediately to see of sameness, their strategy.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_05: There you are.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_05: There you are.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, in a in a lot of ways, marketing should be treated as normal social behavior.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_05: If you're dressed like this now, I if I come out tomorrow dress the same as you, like you would, you know, when you're a teenager, you'd say, you know, stop copying me.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_05: And it's it's should be seen as the same in marketing.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_05: And I think often, you know, like to use a driving metaphor, just you know, keep your hands on the wheel, keep your eyes on the course, and don't get distracted by all the things around you.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_05: Jumped in on a question.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_05: Sorry.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, Bridget, it's now your turn to pass the mic to our next guest by leaving them a question about marketing, advertising, or their creative process.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, my question is: are we creating work for the algorithm or for people?
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't want to be the one to answer that.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now it's your turn to leave your question for our next guest about marketing creativity or the advertising and advertising industry.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can I ask a more personal question?
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: Am I allowed to do that?
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: I genuinely would want whoever it is to reflect on what they see as their biggest mistake and what they've learned from it, and what we all can learn from that mistake that they've made.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hoping they'll feel comfortable sharing it.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know who it is.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know some more than others, but I would I genuinely would love to know that.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: Can I add a bonus question for you now that you've asked that?
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, don't ask me.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: So so so yeah.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the CMO of Investec, A.B.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: left a question, which is um along the lines of that, and that was what was your biggest mistake, and how are you using that mistake or what you learned from that mistake to teach others after you?
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this is AB's question.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly, it's not original.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: I must think of a new one.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, we'll still use it.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um so for me, the biggest mistake I've always made, um uh at least the biggest ones, are always related to people.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, making a choice to hire the wrong person or not get rid of the wrong person quickly enough or not believe in somebody enough and advocate for them.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of those, if I reflect on my career, the things that I look back and I'm like, I wish I could go back and do that differently are definitely related to people.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and how I use that going forward um is to be much more intentional than that, to prioritize what I do around people, how I think about people, um, making decisions quickly when you need to, um, and upskilling my team in the same way.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: To be clear that the thing that matters the most when it comes to people is attitude.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: I firmly believe that.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because everything else you can teach them.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and sometimes we do get a little bit too excited about, oh, but they can do this and this and this.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: And have you seen how they can do this?
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree that skills are hugely important.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, you know, one of my very first bosses, I'll name him, maybe he watches Frank Hesnape at uh Unilever.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I remember we were as a team, we'd lost a couple of people, some had been promoted to different parts of the business, and we were just on fire, right?
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like we just we just didn't have enough humans, not not enough bodies to get the work done.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was taking him a really long time to to hire someone.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he just said to me, guys, I'd rather have a hole than an app.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that just I was like, okay, Frank, right.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think I underplayed the wisdom of that moment because I continued to make my own mistakes thereafter.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was too young for the message.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but as I've gotten older, that's absolutely resonated with me.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: That you just you've got to think carefully about what you need in people and how you select them.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I just, you know, so that's why I drive that a lot in my team, the stuff that matters versus the stuff that doesn't, um, and trying to make sure I live that myself.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_05: There's so much to be said for personal chemistry.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_05: I think when you work in an industry like ours that's so deeply reliant on relationships, it's it's very undercalled how important that sort of chemistry is.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, and to help bring the best out of those people.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you, you know, you can hire the smartest person, but if you are a terrible human being that terrifies everybody and nobody wants you know what I mean, you're not going to get the best out of that person.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so how do you make sure to your point that you are building those kinds of relationships that allow whoever you're working with uh to bring the very best of themselves to the table, including our agency partners and your leadership.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot overstate how important it is to be able to have, you know, constructive relationships with the people that lead your organizations as well.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you both so much for making time to talk to us um and share your insights.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's a lot to take away from that, but I think ultimately the people um I think matter most, and also just not chasing the hype, sticking to your lane um and building and consistently building.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think um, Bridget, one of the things that for me I take away from what you said is there's there's more competition now than ever before.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there's also this notion that we must chase or do what the competition does to kind of keep up.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas you've seen the changes, you've seen the competition come and go, you've seen the trends uh change over time.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much for sharing your insights with us, and thank you for watching.
• 1:08:56
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